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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: There a quick note before we start. Most of you

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Speaker 2: love listening to ads. I know that, But if you don't,

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Speaker 2: here's an option. Subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: You'll get ten episodes of Empire on Blood the Director's

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Speaker 2: cut ad free and one week early with exclusive bonus content.

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Speaker 1: And it's a mere two ninety nine a month.

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Speaker 2: Previously on Empire on Blood, we were under siege.

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Speaker 1: We were going to lose the City of New York

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Speaker 1: cases on today for the court's ruling.

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Speaker 3: People said New.

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Speaker 4: York they did sloppy work and then they intentionally did

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Speaker 4: wrong work.

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Speaker 2: Most of these, ain't they intentionally did wrong work In

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Speaker 2: the Calvin case, Yes.

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Speaker 3: From what I can see so far.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to give up.

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Speaker 5: This is what happened.

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Speaker 4: You had a lot of killings in the summer of

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety five. As the pool he was and oh no,

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Speaker 4: hold it right.

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Speaker 2: So he's signed down the stairs and he's not supposed to.

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Speaker 3: Do that, you mean from upstairs by himself.

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Speaker 4: He's one hundred and twenty seven years old.

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Speaker 3: He does the right to do that.

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Speaker 2: This is Alan Karen, a longtime prosecutor in the Bronx

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Speaker 2: and a rescuer of turtles.

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Speaker 3: Oh my God, said, did you keep him in a

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Speaker 3: cage or are they No?

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Speaker 4: No, no, He's free to walk around.

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Speaker 3: This is Andrea Giant.

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Speaker 4: He's a giant for his species. And I got him

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Speaker 4: from the Turnoibac Zoo in nineteen eighty nine when he

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Speaker 4: was dying.

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Speaker 3: And h he's part of the permanent group.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: How many do you have?

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Speaker 6: Twenty?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 3: And take more. I'm trying not to look at the

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Speaker 3: discussion store.

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Speaker 2: As a journalist, I've been threatened, arrested, even shot at once.

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Speaker 1: But this is my first reptile encounter.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you rub him on the top of the

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Speaker 3: next You love that? Okay?

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Speaker 2: Alan marches Andre up the stairs, But tortoises, they're relentless.

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Speaker 3: Hold on, do not come down stairs.

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Speaker 2: Alan, Karen and I are at his home in Westchester,

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Speaker 2: his bachelor pad. Alan is short, wiry fit, an outdoor

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Speaker 2: tennis player all year round. His house is modest, compact

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Speaker 2: living room, bachelor's kitchen meaning cereal and soda cartan stacked

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Speaker 2: against a counter. There's music memorabileyond the walls in the

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Speaker 2: living room. One photo signed Yoko and John. But most

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Speaker 2: remarkable is that turtles and tortoises, run free, turtle.

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Speaker 3: Models, turtle candy, dish.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and so.

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Speaker 2: Alan Karen is known by colleagues and criminals alike as Turtleman.

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Speaker 1: I like that name.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like a superhero, so that's what I'm going to

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Speaker 2: call him, Turtleman. For years, Turtleman was perhaps the best

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Speaker 2: prosecutor in the Bronx, certainly one of the best, rarely lost.

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Speaker 1: Oh and he loved the job.

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Speaker 2: He used to grab his briefcase as he walked out

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Speaker 2: the door and sing song off to fight crime. Had

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Speaker 2: he ever considered being a private defense attorney making real money.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the people you'd have to represent are

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Speaker 4: real scum and are.

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Speaker 3: Guilty, So that is not for me, right, He.

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Speaker 2: Walked into the prosecutor's office and thought, this is it,

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Speaker 2: This is where I should be.

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Speaker 1: Yep, pretty much.

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Speaker 4: I like being a trial lawyer, and I like investigating

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Speaker 4: cases and my approaches. But bed guys in jail, my

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Speaker 4: approach was different than a lot of people in the office.

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Speaker 4: You were involved here, I would say, I would definitely say.

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Speaker 2: I would too. I've interviewed a bunch of prosecutors over

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Speaker 2: the years. Often they talk in attorney speak about not

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Speaker 2: overreaching and being judicious with the power vested in them. Turtleman,

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Speaker 2: he strikes a different tone. We go out to a

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Speaker 2: restaurant near Turtleman's house to talk more. I like to

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Speaker 2: talk to people in restaurants. It's friendlier. Though Noisier lawyers

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Speaker 2: are very superstitious.

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Speaker 4: They don't like to make predictions.

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Speaker 1: My occasion may have and on many.

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Speaker 4: Occasions I have said that much people should grin up

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Speaker 4: my viewer chief. I guarantee a king Vitraino's case. And

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Speaker 4: when I've said that, I have always got the conviction.

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Speaker 2: Could you do that in the Bwari case, that's, of

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Speaker 2: course the people versus Calvin Bowari. KL was accused of

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Speaker 2: a double homicide committed in nineteen ninety two. Alan Karen

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Speaker 2: was the prosecutor assigned to the case, which, by the

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Speaker 2: time he got involved, was on life support. Years had

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Speaker 2: gone by with no conviction. But Turtleman, he's confident, even arrogant.

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Speaker 2: He will get the job done no matter what it takes.

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Speaker 2: The Calvin Bowari case is no exception.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I told that to my office. I told that

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Speaker 1: to the judge, and I told that.

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Speaker 3: To check you if you change your mind on the server.

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Speaker 1: Let me know, let me have a cama mile t.

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Speaker 4: I'll do lemon and honeywot I told that to the

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Speaker 4: defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: Your guy is dead in Bari. There was no doubt

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Speaker 1: in my mind he was going down.

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Speaker 2: And so a ballsy prosecutor stalks at drug kingpin through

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Speaker 2: the streets of the Bronx.

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Speaker 6: Fucking you, build some blood. He's the king the birds.

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Speaker 6: You know, we have a bird nob a sweet friend

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Speaker 6: that told the last.

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Speaker 2: Word from Orbit Media. This is Empire on Blood, a

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Speaker 2: story of murder, betrayal and a man who fought the

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Speaker 2: law for two decades.

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Speaker 1: End of the prosecutor who fought back. I'm Steve Fisherman.

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Speaker 2: So Alan Karen is the picture of the badass law man,

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Speaker 2: even as he stands in the middle of his living

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Speaker 2: room affectionately stroking the neck of a one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty seven year old tortoise. There's no doubt in my

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Speaker 2: mind that society needs people like him. Fearless of bad guys.

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Speaker 2: Turtleman is in the Rudy Giuliani mold. He will get

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Speaker 2: the job done, take control of the bad guys. Once

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Speaker 2: Turtleman makes up his mind, you're on the wrong side

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Speaker 2: of the law. He locks and loads. Oh he enjoys

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Speaker 2: the fight. Just ask the people who fought beside him.

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Speaker 3: I remember one time was years back during the trial.

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Speaker 2: This is Frank Vigiano, a New York City police detective

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Speaker 2: who worked with Turtleman.

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Speaker 4: I found the witness that we couldn't find in the

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Speaker 4: last minute and on TV like we got.

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Speaker 5: We got the witness, understand, you know, and he testified

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Speaker 5: and he was.

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Speaker 6: Damaging big time.

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Speaker 4: So after the testimony, Alan's standing next to the defense

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Speaker 4: attorney with the bad guys sitting.

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Speaker 3: There, and he says, how does your clients feel?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: You know those kind of things.

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Speaker 4: Like and the kid got up, was going to kill him,

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Speaker 4: like the courthouse is at forever, you know.

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Speaker 3: But that's Allen, you know.

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Speaker 1: He just yeah, that's his.

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Speaker 6: Way, you know, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: You know, he fought put a big guy away. You

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Speaker 5: go to whatever you had.

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Speaker 1: To do to do it, you know, whatever he had

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Speaker 1: to do to do it.

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Speaker 4: I have my own style, which probably is different than

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Speaker 4: many people. And essentially I did whatever I wanted and

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Speaker 4: I never got reversed for anything I did that. He's

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Speaker 4: probably here, we go.

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Speaker 3: There we go, we'll kind of tortoises that again. Use

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Speaker 3: a leopard tortoise the North Africa.

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Speaker 2: So Turtleman marches Andre the Giant the dog's ezed tortoise

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Speaker 2: up the stairs again. But back to fighting crime. Let's

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Speaker 2: look at what Turtleman had to work with in the

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Speaker 2: People Versus Buari. Other assistant district attorneys had taken a

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Speaker 2: swing at the case, but they had just one witness

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Speaker 2: identifying Calvin as the murderer, and that guy, a crack

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Speaker 2: dealer like Calvin, died in Jamaica before he could testify,

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Speaker 2: so the case had stalled. Still a double murder, there's

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Speaker 2: pressure to clear those and Turtleman had an obvious suspect.

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Speaker 3: He was the head of the organization.

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Speaker 4: He was the leader, there is no doubt about that.

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Speaker 4: And we knew that when I first got the case.

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Speaker 4: We knew this is the guy responsible for all the killings.

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Speaker 2: Calvin had just turned twenty two when he was arrested

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Speaker 2: for the murder of the Harris brothers. Soon he'd be

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Speaker 2: charged with a third murder. By the time Turtleman got

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Speaker 2: Calvin's case, none of the charges had led to a

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Speaker 2: conviction or even a trial. The third murder rat was

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Speaker 2: eventually dropped. Through it all, Calvin remained on the streets

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Speaker 2: of the North Bronx, distributing crack and living the life.

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Speaker 2: Ware strutted around his neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: In mink Coats.

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Speaker 2: He had two and he drove a forty thousand dollars BMW.

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Speaker 1: He had two at that.

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Speaker 2: Time, A cop with five years experience earned just a

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Speaker 2: little over forty thousand dollars a year. Calvin Buwarre rubbed

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Speaker 2: their noses in his success. Mayor Giuliani took crime personally.

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Speaker 2: It made him angry. Turtleman is the same. He has

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Speaker 2: no patience for bad guys. But until Turtleman takes on

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Speaker 2: the Harris Brothers case, it looks like Cal is going

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Speaker 2: to riggle free. Cal says that Turtleman's predecessors offered him

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Speaker 2: a deal plead guilty to the double homicide and take

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Speaker 2: a three year sentence. Now that's a crazy offer. Three

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Speaker 2: years for two murders. Dealers get more than that for

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Speaker 2: carrying a few vials of crack in their pockets. But

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Speaker 2: Cal he rejects the DA's offer. If they're putting that

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Speaker 2: on the table, they obviously have no case and also

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Speaker 2: don't forget. Cal says he's innocent. At this point, it's

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Speaker 2: worth noting Cal believes in the criminal justice system. Believes

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Speaker 2: that if he's innocent, then the system will affirm that

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Speaker 2: you had detectives.

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Speaker 4: You DA's trying to make a case, so they asked me.

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Speaker 4: They said, it's an old case. We don't think there's

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Speaker 4: a witness.

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Speaker 5: Do what you can.

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Speaker 3: Keep it alive.

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Speaker 2: The DA hopes to keep it alive long enough to

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Speaker 2: catch a break. Turtleman keeps the charge on the docket,

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Speaker 2: shows up at court, requests adjournments.

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Speaker 3: At that point, his lawyers should have moved to dismiss No,

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Speaker 3: we answered ready.

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Speaker 2: In other words, Turtleman stood up in court and said,

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Speaker 2: there is no reason to dismiss this case, your honor,

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Speaker 2: We are ready to go to trial.

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Speaker 3: We answered ready. We were. I would have gone as

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Speaker 3: far as I could and then ended.

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Speaker 4: Up dismissing it.

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Speaker 3: We answered ready on the case. Oh, it's a total bluff.

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Speaker 4: It was a total bluff, because it's either going to

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Speaker 4: be dismissed or your answer ready.

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Speaker 1: A total bluff.

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Speaker 2: But luck favors the prepared mind, and Turtleman is nothing

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Speaker 2: if not prepared. Here comes the luck three years after

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Speaker 2: the Harris Brothers murder, a turf war breaks out for

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Speaker 2: control of the crack trade. Bodies are falling in and

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Speaker 2: around the corner on Blood Cow's Corner. One of the

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Speaker 2: dead is the older brother of a guy named Dwight Robinson.

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Speaker 2: Dwight's a young dealer who sells crack for Cow. For

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Speaker 2: a long time, Dwight fell close to Cal. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he idolized Cow, emulated him and believed he understood him.

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Speaker 5: And that's the type of mentality we have to rise above.

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Speaker 5: If you got to kill a few people to get

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Speaker 5: what you want in life, showed be it. If that's

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Speaker 5: part accomplish your goal, She'll be it as long as

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Speaker 5: your goal is accomplished.

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Speaker 2: So in nineteen ninety five in the North Bronx goals

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Speaker 2: are getting accomplished. The death toll is mounting six seven,

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Speaker 2: eight shootings in the period of a month or so.

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Speaker 2: It's dangerous out there if you're trying to earn a

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Speaker 2: living selling crack, But if your Turtleman, it's an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: Turtleman is working with detectives at the forty seventh Precinct.

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Speaker 2: The cops are talking to everyone connected to the turf war.

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Speaker 2: They summon Dwight Robinson to the station. Dwight is in

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Speaker 2: the middle of it. He's scared his brother has been murdered.

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Speaker 2: Dwight could be next. He's already facing drug charges. There

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Speaker 2: might be an attempted murder to pin on him too.

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Speaker 2: But Turtleman and the cops make something clear to Dwight.

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Speaker 2: They don't want him. The bigger picture to them is Cow.

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Speaker 4: Second time we had him in, we got him talking

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Speaker 4: about his brother. I said, well, can you help us

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Speaker 4: at all? Can you? You weren't the witness to your brogra,

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Speaker 4: not a witness to.

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Speaker 1: That, but maybe he saw something.

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Speaker 4: I did see him do one other one though old case.

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Speaker 2: Dwight told Turtleman he saw Cow kill the Harris brothers

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Speaker 2: three years earlier. The case the Turtleman has been desperately

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Speaker 2: trying to keep alive.

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Speaker 1: A stroke of luck and drikes it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was there, Turtleman claps as he recalls that moment.

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Speaker 2: A new witness, Turtleman jumps on it. He may not

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Speaker 2: fully understand Dwight's motivation. Dwight may not fully understand his

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Speaker 2: own motivation, but well, this is a moment to transact

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Speaker 2: business not psychologize. With Dwight on his side, Turtleman has

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Speaker 2: a shot at finally getting his man, and he's ready

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Speaker 2: to deal with a lot to offer. Turtleman can make

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Speaker 2: Dwight's drug charges disappear and an attempted murder. Don't worry

257
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Speaker 2: about that. That's the message Dwight takes away.

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Speaker 5: At this point, I says to myself, I could give

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Speaker 5: him up.

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Speaker 2: So Dwight signs on the dotted line and Turtleman gets

261
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Speaker 2: even more than he bargained for. Dwight isn't just another cooperator.

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Speaker 2: He becomes a super cooperator. He's like Turtleman's deputy. He

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Speaker 2: recruits witnesses, his drug associates, people that col supplied with crack.

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Speaker 2: He even accompanies one of them to the precinct in

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Speaker 2: the back of a police cruiser, and he encourages others

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Speaker 2: to testify against cal.

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Speaker 3: Was it hard to get those guys to come in

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Speaker 3: or not deserve this?

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Speaker 5: Now? Of course, at that point he had wrong so

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Speaker 5: many people that are a lot of people wanted him gone,

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Speaker 5: so he became like a bully to everybody else. Weird

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Speaker 5: dudes felt like like there was a dude that was literally.

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Speaker 2: Terrified of this man, Dwight does his best to turn witnesses.

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Speaker 2: This is Jamo, the ex con and street novelist who

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Speaker 2: ran with Dwight and County trying to get you to

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Speaker 2: testify your time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Dwight tried three times to get you to testify

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Speaker 1: against Cal.

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Speaker 5: Recruit me the Whight asked to me to Rochester and

280
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Speaker 5: it made me rich again.

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Speaker 1: Oh go fuck yourself, a motherfucker. I was never rich

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Speaker 1: and I'm not going away with you. Let me forget that.

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Speaker 3: Sha Yeah, I'm gonna said too much that all right.

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Speaker 2: Jamo, by the way, doesn't agree to testify against Cal.

285
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Speaker 1: Doesn't matter.

286
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Speaker 2: Three dealers, including Dwight, do testify, as well as others

287
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Speaker 2: around the drug scene. Turtleman waves his magic wand and

288
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Speaker 2: drug weapons robbery charges poof, No one will do time,

289
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Speaker 2: So we'll.

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Speaker 3: Make this case without Dwight.

291
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Speaker 4: Obviously, Could we have made it without him?

292
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Speaker 3: Without d White, we wouldn't have had anybody.

293
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Speaker 4: Could we have tried the case without him and with

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Speaker 4: the other witnesses, Sure, but that makes no sense.

295
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Speaker 1: I mean, Dwight was a gift, but how to keep

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Speaker 1: that gift secret from Cow's defense. That's after the break.

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Speaker 2: We're back with Empire on Blood. I remember the first

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Speaker 2: time I went to Turtleman's house. He was standing in

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Speaker 2: the driveway cradling one of his prized possessions, a turtle.

300
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Speaker 1: He was smiling.

301
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Speaker 2: It was a big, beaming smile. They make great pets,

302
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,480
Speaker 2: he tells me, so cuddly. No kidding, he really says this.

303
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 2: Turtleman devoted his entire career to the DA's office, forty

304
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 2: plus years. He sacrificed any semblance of a social life.

305
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 2: Turtleman retired a couple of years back. He ended up

306
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 2: with a good pension, a small plaque, a souvenir badge,

307
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 2: a bunch of reptiles. He's been trying to make up

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Speaker 2: for lost time.

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Speaker 3: How's thematch dot com life thing?

310
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Speaker 1: Oh?

311
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 6: It sucks.

312
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 5: It sucks.

313
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Speaker 3: Not what I enjoy doing.

314
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Speaker 4: But did do the best you can.

315
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,800
Speaker 2: And so Turtleman is happy to return with me to

316
00:18:51,960 --> 00:19:00,720
Speaker 2: more heroic times. Dwight flips in August nineteen ninety five.

317
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 2: Calvin's trial starts three months later. One problem for Turtleman.

318
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Speaker 2: Calvin has no apparent motive to kill the Harris brothers exactly,

319
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 2: says Turtleman. That's what makes Calvin so dangerous. He's deep down,

320
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,639
Speaker 2: ruthless and petty and thin skinned. He's not like you

321
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 2: or me, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. He kills

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Speaker 2: for cause and for no cause.

323
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Speaker 4: It sends a message in the street. Everybody was scared

324
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,600
Speaker 4: at Calvin. See, the Harris brothers had nothing to do

325
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,719
Speaker 4: with drugs. They had to do with cars, but they

326
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 4: knew him from the area. Their sin was insulting him

327
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Speaker 4: in front of people.

328
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 2: Insulting Calvin in front of people. According to Turtleman, that

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00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 2: happened three years earlier, on the night of September tenth,

330
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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two. That evening, the Harris brother stopped on

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Speaker 2: East two hundred and thirteenth Street, just off Bronxwood. They

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00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 2: ordered some food to go from the Jamaican restaurant on

333
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 2: the corner. As they walked out, they passed a group

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Speaker 2: of Cow's drug dealers. One brother is heard saying, get

335
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 2: that money, kid, I hear you got.

336
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Speaker 1: A street sweeper. A street sweeper is a powerful rifle.

337
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 2: So the brothers are poking their noses into other people's business.

338
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Speaker 4: And Calvin took a fence at that. So he got

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00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 4: the gun from the garbage can and he just went

340
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 4: into the restaurant, came back with their food, got into

341
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 4: the BMW, and he just opened fire, and he just

342
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 4: killed those motherfuckers.

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Speaker 2: I wonder about Turtleman's version of Calvin. Turtleman never actually

344
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 2: spoke with Cal with the cow I've been speaking to

345
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: these past seven years, risk his profitable enterprise over a

346
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,679
Speaker 2: stray remark or two. The Cal I know is all

347
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 2: about the money. If it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't

348
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 2: make sense. That's what he likes to say. So to me, undisciplined,

349
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 2: lashing out, it doesn't seem like cal But admittedly I've

350
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 2: only known Cal as a mature person, middle aged, and

351
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: I've never known him on the streets. In any case,

352
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,440
Speaker 2: Turtleman doesn't need to prove to a jury that Cal's

353
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 2: impulsive or cruel. Just floating the idea can be effective.

354
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 4: A trial is like going to war, and the goal

355
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 4: is obviously to prove the defendant guilty beyond the reasonable doubt.

356
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 4: But it's also important to make the jury dislike the defendant.

357
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 4: If you can dislike things about him, if you can

358
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 4: make the jury see who the defendant really was and

359
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 4: dislike him, you're.

360
00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 3: Ahead of the game.

361
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: I had to ask anyone.

362
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 3: There's no chance he's innocent.

363
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 2: No chance, So game on. Cal hires a defense attorney

364
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 2: named Ken Shreiber. Ken spent a couple of years working

365
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: for Legal Aid, but soon went out on his own,

366
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: a solo practitioner with an office in Queen's. Ken's white haired,

367
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: with a paunch these days, and recently retired. My producer

368
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 2: and I meet him at a diner on Long Island,

369
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 2: a Greek diner. Naturally, I ordered Jewish food for everyone.

370
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 6: Not even pura man.

371
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 5: Magh say, I'm surprised.

372
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Speaker 3: You know.

373
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 6: This is my That's very nice.

374
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 5: It must not help my diet.

375
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 7: And since I retired, I put on about twenty pounds

376
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 7: the retirement I was a bad back.

377
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Speaker 5: I think that helped too.

378
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: Ken is not a crusader in a Holy war, unlike Turtleman.

379
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: He's good at his job. He's lost his share of trials.

380
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: Defense attorneys often lose, but he's won several acquittals too.

381
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: Be Cow was innocent, I don't know, to be can that?

382
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 6: I don't know?

383
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 7: And you know that didn't That never was part of

384
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 7: the equation with me.

385
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 2: To Ken, Innocent's guilt not essential to his job. In fact,

386
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 2: for Ken, having a guilty client is easier. You don't

387
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: feel bad losing either way. Ken gets paid to provide

388
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 2: a vigorous defense. There's no bonus for winning. His job

389
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 2: is to introduce doubt. If a jury has reasonable doubt

390
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: about Cal's guilt, then he walks. What's reasonable doubt? Simple

391
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: a doubt that you can give a reason to. In

392
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 2: Cal's case, that's not going to be simple. Not with

393
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 2: all the witnesses against him, and these aren't Col's rivals.

394
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: At least three of the cooperating witnesses worked with Cal,

395
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: and more witnesses keep popping up, witnesses whose names Turtleman

396
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 2: hasn't heard before. One phone's the disc attorney's office the

397
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 2: day the trial starts.

398
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: He wants to testify.

399
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: Turtleman welcomes the volunteers in the usual way if they

400
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: face charges, He offers them a deal. One witness is

401
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: already in prison. In that case, Turtleman can put in

402
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 2: a word and help with parole. That kind of power,

403
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 2: it's hard for a defense attorney to compete with it.

404
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 7: You talk about an unfair playing ground. If a defense

405
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 7: lawyer were to give a fact witness fifty dollars to

406
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 7: encourage him to testify on his client's behalf.

407
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: That would be called bribery.

408
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 7: If a district attorney offers a man facing twenty five

409
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 7: years for murder a walk in exchange for his testimony,

410
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 7: that's called justice. So there's that problem that's inherent in

411
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 7: any case when you're dealing with cooperators. This case deal

412
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 7: with nothing but cooperators.

413
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: Ken's memory is a little faulty. There were a couple

414
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: of witnesses who didn't need deals. But even the judge

415
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: seemed exasperated at one point when he said, I'm reading

416
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: from the transcript quote maybe there's a call out in

417
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: the Northeast area anybody having narcotics cases pending against him.

418
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 2: By going to the district attorney's office, you'll get probation.

419
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. End quote.

420
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: The trial begins on October eleventh, nineteen ninety five. Turtleman's

421
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: witnesses all tell similar stories, the crux of which is

422
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 2: I saw Calvin Bwari gun down the Harris Brothers. Witnesses

423
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: say they decided to come forward after a brief phone

424
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: call from Dwight, like a thirty second call. Why Because

425
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: I want to do the right thing.

426
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 7: There was nothing that can be done about it except

427
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 7: to attempt to show as best you can to the

428
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 7: fact find is that this was taking place. For me

429
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 7: to stand up and scream that's not fair. You're using

430
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 7: people that are going to life to say and do

431
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 7: anything is not going to accomplish anything.

432
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 2: Ken tries to introduce doubt in the minds of the factbinders,

433
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: that's the jury.

434
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: He cross examines the cooperators.

435
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 7: This was several years ago. Did you tell your mother

436
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 7: about it? Did you tell police officers about it? Did

437
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 7: you tell anybody about it?

438
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: Before?

439
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 7: Alan Karen offered you I got out of jail card

440
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 7: and they said no, they didn't.

441
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: Fighting cooperators.

442
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: That's tough for a defense attorney, especially in the Calvin

443
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: Buari case, because, as a prosecutor in New York State,

444
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: Turtleman has another.

445
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 1: Weapon, like a nuclear weapon.

446
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 2: Ordinarily, the prosecution provides a list of its witnesses to

447
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: defense lawyers before the trial starts, accompanied with background information

448
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: on them, notes of interviews with witnesses, police reports, that

449
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: kind of thing. But there are exceptions. In this case,

450
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: Turtleman doesn't want to give the defense even the names

451
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: of his witnesses until that is they are on the stand.

452
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: He tells the judge that cal is so dangerous that

453
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: witnesses are afraid for their lives. He asked the judge

454
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: for a protection order, and the judge later he says

455
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: he feels duped. He says he'll never do this again.

456
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: But when Turtleman asks, the judge says okay. He lets

457
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 2: Turtleman keep the names of his witnesses a secret. So

458
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: Col's attorney, Ken Shreiber, he can't even be sure who

459
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 2: exactly will testify against his client, And it was torture.

460
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 7: To go dealing with individuals who you didn't know who

461
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 7: You really didn't know anything about their background, or he

462
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 7: didn't have an opportunity for an investigator to investigate. You

463
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 7: really didn't even have an opportunity to evaluate the court files,

464
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 7: which were in that same building for the most part

465
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 7: that you're on trial.

466
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 5: So it was difficult.

467
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: Ken didn't know the name of one mystery witness, as

468
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: he called him like it was a game show. That

469
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 2: mystery witness was thirteen when he says he saw the shooting.

470
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 2: He testifies when he's sixteen. He's been busy in the interim.

471
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: A cumulate in armed robbery a weapons charge, a drug charge.

472
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: Turtleman waves his wand no jail time for the teenager,

473
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 2: so he's happy to testify. He says he was either

474
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: a block or a block and a half away. He

475
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 2: can't keep his story straight either way. He testifies that

476
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 2: he not only saw Cal do the killing, but was

477
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: able to see through the car windows, past the driver

478
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: and into the passenger seat. Oh, and he testified that

479
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 2: he recognized that the brothers were murdered in a late

480
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 2: model Beamer, and that col was carrying a hat, a

481
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: kangle hat in his hand, a hat and a gun apparently,

482
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: and that from two hundred and fifty feet away, across

483
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: a busy street with parking on both sides. Ken didn't

484
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: have time to investigate that story. He couldn't even be

485
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: certain that Dwight Robinson would testify.

486
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 7: No, I've just learned his name, either that morning or

487
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 7: the day before, and I was given the background information

488
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 7: probably twenty minutes before I had started my cross examination.

489
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: On the stand. Dwight is brilliant. He speaks softly, calmly.

490
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: He calls Ken Schreiber sir repeatedly. It gets under Ken's skin,

491
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: as if Dwight is making fun of him, and then

492
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: Dwight calmly tells the jury the account all the others

493
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: have told. He saw Cal shoot the Harris brothers. But

494
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: for me, the climactic moment of the trial is somewhere else.

495
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: There'd been a series of chaotic events just weeks before

496
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: the trial started, including shootouts and murders. Cal survived in

497
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: an assassination attempt. I'm reading from the transcript. Now, defense,

498
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: that's Ken Schreiber. Did you have anything to do with

499
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: the shooting of Calvin Buari Dwight's response, No, I didn't, sir.

500
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: We'll return to Dwight and to this moment in the

501
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: next episode. For now, let's stay with Cal in Ken

502
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: Shreiber's memory. Cal just stared at Dwight from the defense table.

503
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: Cal was quiet, composed. He's Cal in full control of

504
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: his conscious behavior at least, but then there's his subconscious.

505
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: Cal has a nightmare about Dwight's testimony.

506
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 8: He's looking at me and laughing at me at the

507
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 8: stand because he's utilizing the system. Now, he utilized the

508
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 8: system to take my life. So it's like and directly

509
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 8: he's telling me, I didn't get you, but I got you.

510
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 8: That's the thing, nightmare end. The nightmare ends with me

511
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 8: waking up and I'm sitting in a cell. Steve, you

512
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 8: know I'm in a cage.

513
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: When we return in dreams begin reality, it's Dwight versus

514
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: cal with consequences for both.

515
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: We're back with Empire on Blood.

516
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: I'm sitting in the Greek diner with Ken Schreiber, Cow's

517
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: defense attorney. I want to understand what a lawyer does

518
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: when he believes that a witness just flat out lies.

519
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 7: You don't necessarily say, aren't you lying? Because this is

520
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 7: not Perry Mason where they're going to snap up and

521
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 7: say you got me, you got me, counsel. You have

522
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 7: to try to impeach his credibility in a variety of directions.

523
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 7: And that's why time and effort of an investigator and

524
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 7: background information was invaluable, which I didn't have.

525
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: A trial is a contest of unequal forces. It's designed

526
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: that way, and Ken Schreiber, he's not particularly well armed.

527
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: The best he can do is try to wear down

528
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: the other side, make a point here, a point there.

529
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: Hopefully they add up.

530
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 2: In every trial, there are competing truths, but let's face it,

531
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: Turtleman's truth is well supported six witnesses say they saw

532
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: the crime, did they lie? Did they weigh the benefits

533
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: and make let's call it a business decision, spend years

534
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: in prison or cooperate tell the story the DA wants

535
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: to hear.

536
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: Hmm.

537
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: That's for the jury to decide. The jury deliberates for

538
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: a mere two hours. The verdict guilty as charged. Cal

539
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: is sentenced to fifty years to life. He is off

540
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: the streets, and that means there's a job opening in

541
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: the crack trade. Guess who fills it. The Corner on

542
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: Blood promotes from within.

543
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 4: Dwight was articulate. These guys are not what you would

544
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 4: think of as sort of ghetto drug dealers. And Dwight

545
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 4: was likable, and we're talking to him and I said, listen, Dwight,

546
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 4: I'm not going to ask you to not commit crime.

547
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 4: There's a ghostraight or this and that, because I could

548
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 4: say whatever I want and you can say like fuck you.

549
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: But just as a practical matter, man, your brother's dead,

550
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: your friends are dead, these people are going to jail.

551
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 4: Nobody's fucking winning here, So you know what doesn't make sense.

552
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 4: So he said, you know, mister Karen, I'm done with

553
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 4: this man, you know, I see what's happening to the community.

554
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 3: But in talking to.

555
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: Him, I mean, he seemed to be intelligent, and he

556
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 4: was saying, man, I'm getting out of this man, because

557
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 4: I know so many people who are dead.

558
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: There's no reason, you know, I'm done with this. Then

559
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: he goes right back.

560
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: Tontal Man thought he understood Dwight. Dwight had upheld his

561
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: end of the bargain and was rewarded. Drug charges go away,

562
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: and there's an attempted murder that Dwight seems to be

563
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: involved in. That investigation goes away too. Exceptional clearance is

564
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: the reason, given that's a rarely used designation. But then

565
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: Dwight has earned it. Turtleman cares about Dwight. Dwight was

566
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: his protege, but Dwight he wasn't necessarily what he seemed.

567
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: Dwight returns to East two hundred and thirteenth in Bronxwood.

568
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: He's now the boss Emperor of the Empire on Blood.

569
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: He runs his own crew, dresses like cal sometimes is

570
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: mistaken for him. Two years later, Dwight is arrested for

571
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: murdering a rival drug dealer. The details of that crime

572
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: resemble the murder of the Harris brothers. A lone gunman,

573
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: same type of weapon and same spot the corner on blood.

574
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: The assistant DA assigned to prosecute Dwight comes to Turnurtleman.

575
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: He knows that Dwight has been a super cooperator. Should

576
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: they give him a break back in the restaurant in Westchester.

577
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: I asked Turtleman about that.

578
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,959
Speaker 1: I said, basically, fuck him. He did this. He goes

579
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: down to it.

580
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 4: You know, if he had been arrested for let's say,

581
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: selling marijuana or I certainly would.

582
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 3: Have you know, said niche, let's help this guy.

583
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: He helped us. Let's killing somebody.

584
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 5: You get nothing there to say.

585
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: Up and so Dwight finds he does not possess a

586
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: get out of jail free card. He's sentenced to twenty

587
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 2: five years to life, and Alan Karen Turtleman, well, his

588
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: record speaks for itself. At his house, I ask him directly,

589
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: but so.

590
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 3: Never got reversed for anything. Nope.

591
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: And then I catch a glimpse of Andre the Giant again,

592
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: Turtleman's cuddly ancient tortoise, his boon companion. I have a

593
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: feeling that Andrea will be around long after the rest

594
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: of us have gone. Next time on Empire on Blood,

595
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: my new friend Dwight Robinson.

596
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 5: The statue of limitation is seven five. I think my

597
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 5: tent murder. Yeah, but anyway, I don't know if he

598
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 5: says something, he turns a carl to get back out,

599
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 5: stands and look around and uh he gets back in.

600
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 5: Actually know it's just raining shots.

601
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: The director's cut of Empire on Blood is produced by

602
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: Emmy Klein. Austin Smith is our associate producer and production coordinator.

603
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: The original production of the Empire on Blood was also

604
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: produced by Emil Klein. Me And Lobell was our executive producer.

605
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: Julia Parton our story editor, fact checking by Stephen McDaniels.

606
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 2: Our advisor was Joel Dusk. Mastering by Jason Glebred, original

607
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: scoring by Joel Saint Julian and our theme song, The

608
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: Lonely King is by mister Lynn. Special thanks to Andy Bowers,

609
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: who championed.

610
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: The original production at Panaplein.

611
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: I'm Steve Fishman, Lucky Goil.

612
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 6: To Blood Levesday King, the Birds where the burd love

613
00:37:50,160 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 6: between friend and old. The last.

614
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: Welcome to you, Hi, there before we go, You've just

615
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: listened to another brilliant episode of Empire on Blood the

616
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: Director's Cut. To hear episodes of this series one week

617
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: early and ad free with exclusive content, Subscribe to True

618
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts. It's just two ninety nine

619
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: a month.