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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, brocome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Jeff Pollock, media consultant and now

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Speaker 1: a producer of music documentaries. Jeff, good to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Bob. It's a pleasure appreciate it. Okay, tell

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Speaker 1: me how the Paul McCartney Rick Rubin three to one

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Speaker 1: series on Hulu came together. Well, that's a it's a

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Speaker 1: great question. It happened all during COVID and Rick and

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Speaker 1: I have been friends for a while. We were sort

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Speaker 1: of emailing back and forth. He had just seen the

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Speaker 1: Laurel Canyon doc that we had done and really liked it.

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Speaker 1: And I sort of said, well, hey, have you ever

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Speaker 1: thought about producing a doc? Would you like to do that?

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Speaker 1: And he goes, well, that would be fun. Who would

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Speaker 1: you want to do? So, as music guys do we

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Speaker 1: we went back and forth saying what would you want

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Speaker 1: to do? Here's a short list. The thing Rick said

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Speaker 1: to me was I'd want to do something somebody well known,

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Speaker 1: but tell stories about that person that aren't widely known,

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Speaker 1: you know. So um we decided to We both agreed

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Speaker 1: on Paul McCartney and I said, you know, he's never

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Speaker 1: gonna do it. I mean, this is like just you know,

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Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers pass with the clock running out. It's just nice.

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Speaker 1: It's not gonna happen. But you know, let's approach him

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Speaker 1: with and and this was Rick's idea, was really focusing

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Speaker 1: on Paul the musician, not a Beatles documentary, something really

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Speaker 1: about the bass player, you know, the arranger, the piano player,

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Speaker 1: the you know, the drummer, and uh, with his third

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Speaker 1: solo album coming out, we said, let's let's ask him.

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Speaker 1: So we ended up reaching out to Scott Roger, his manager,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we didn't hear back for a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And then did you have a pre existing relationship with

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Speaker 1: Paul or did Rick have a pre existing relationship with Paul?

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Speaker 1: Of course you know Scott Roger, but was this the

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Speaker 1: first time around the merry go round with Paul. Well,

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Paul in nine, but he wouldn't know me

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Speaker 1: from Adam, So yeah, there was nothing there. And Rick

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Speaker 1: had had met maybe a lunch or something with Paul,

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Speaker 1: but he certainly weren't friends. They were not friends. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So continuing the narrative, you contact Scott Roger, McCartney's manager,

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Speaker 1: and and so um Scott says, well, look, I'll run

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Speaker 1: it by Paul, but you know, he's got a lot

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Speaker 1: going on, and I you know, this is sort of

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Speaker 1: the process you realize, Bob, when you're making an impossible

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Speaker 1: request that's never going to be a yes. So then

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Speaker 1: I get the email back from me says Paul wants

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Speaker 1: to talk to Rick. So they end up having a

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Speaker 1: phone conversation. And I get a two word email back

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Speaker 1: from Rick which says he's in And so I'm saying

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Speaker 1: to myself, now, what this is COVID And oh, by

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Speaker 1: the way, he's in America on August fift and and

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Speaker 1: he can only do it then. And I looked at

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Speaker 1: the calendar, Bob, and it was three weeks away. So

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Speaker 1: of course all the planning that you would ordinarily do

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Speaker 1: on something like this, and the months it would take

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Speaker 1: to prepare have gone out the window. So we sort

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Speaker 1: of four walled a barn in in the Hampton's were

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Speaker 1: Paul has this place. I didn't even go because of COVID.

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Speaker 1: We had like three people on the set and we

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Speaker 1: brought everything in. We had the tapes shipped over from

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Speaker 1: Abbey Road, which is sort of the first time they'd

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Speaker 1: ever left Abbey Road, and that's why if you see

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Speaker 1: the series, you can see Paul listening like he hasn't

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Speaker 1: heard it in a long time. And that's in fact

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Speaker 1: the case. Like, okay, just to be technical here, did

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Speaker 1: they ship the actual tapes or were they digital copies? Oh?

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Speaker 1: They were digital copies. Copies yeah, and so um. And

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Speaker 1: of course Rick being a producer and went through all

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Speaker 1: of them and had all these incredible questions for him.

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Speaker 1: So we shot for fifteen hours, um, and amazingly we

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Speaker 1: were able to do all the post production on it

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Speaker 1: and get it to Hulu. So, I mean literally everything

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Speaker 1: takes so long these days, and we went from him

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Speaker 1: saying yes to being on Hulu in eleven months. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's start back at the beginning. You talked to Rick.

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Speaker 1: You say, hey, Paul, you call Scott Roger. Paul speaks

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Speaker 1: to Rick. Well, we both know there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of other things. How did you make the deal with Hulu?

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Speaker 1: And how where did the money come from? They pay

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Speaker 1: a hundred percent? What happened? Really good questions. So Rick

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Speaker 1: has a deal with Film forty five, which is a

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Speaker 1: film production company who has a deal with Endeavor Content.

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Speaker 1: So Endeavor Content said, okay, will fund the shoot, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't inexpensive because of COVID Bob. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was just like we had to do everything in an

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Speaker 1: incredibly short period of time and then uh, once we

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Speaker 1: had some trailers cut, uh, Endeavor Content could go out

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Speaker 1: and sell it. So they basically fronted it for us.

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Speaker 1: And then how did it end up at Hulu? Well,

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Speaker 1: Hulu was very keen on the idea, and of course

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Speaker 1: Disney had already made the deal for the Peter Jackson film. Uh,

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Speaker 1: so I think they really liked the idea of having uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, a real place with you know, McCartney and

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Speaker 1: you know, three months before the uh the Beatles film

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Speaker 1: came out. So I just I just think, you know,

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Speaker 1: Disney kind of doubled down on the Beatles and McCartney.

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Speaker 1: So lucky for us. Okay, So they fronted the money.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask how much money it was to do

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Speaker 1: the thing lock Stock and Barrel, I can't share that,

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Speaker 1: but but it was not inexpensive, Okay. So in the

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Speaker 1: deal with Hulu, were you in the block or did

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Speaker 1: you retain certain rights that would ultimately put you in

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Speaker 1: the block. Oh, we were in the black and um,

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Speaker 1: you know it's um, definitely. I mean it was something

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Speaker 1: that was it was extraordinary because so little was being

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Speaker 1: made during COVID. I think it was really a sigh

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Speaker 1: of relief for everybody that there could be something brand

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Speaker 1: new that was fresh. So it worked out. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: it's been It's on Hulu now because we bean and

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Speaker 1: if you will say, if you have a subscription to Hulu,

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Speaker 1: you can watch it. Would we anticipate it would be

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Speaker 1: on other platforms available in other distribution outlets at some

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Speaker 1: point in the future, you know. I I don't know

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Speaker 1: the length of the deal. I know it's on Disney

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Speaker 1: Plus outside the US because there isn't the Hulu brand

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Speaker 1: outside the US, but um, you know, streamers essentially licensed it.

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Speaker 1: Like our Sinatra doc which originally was on HBO in

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Speaker 1: All or Nothing at All, is now on Netflix, so

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Speaker 1: you can actually watch it on Netflix. So it's a

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Speaker 1: good question, Bob. I think it's a you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a term, you know, uh, multi year term

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Speaker 1: and then and then it devolves to to somebody else

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Speaker 1: depending on the deal. So what does McCartney say about

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Speaker 1: the finished product? I think he really liked it. I

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Speaker 1: think he heard from a lot of people that it

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Speaker 1: was surprising that it was. You know, it just felt

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Speaker 1: different than a lot of the standard docks being shot

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Speaker 1: in black and white, being intimate, um, being leisurely, like

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Speaker 1: somebody was in the studio. You've been in enough studios

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Speaker 1: to know that the pacing in a studio is slower,

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Speaker 1: and this was slower. You know, this was Rick Rubin

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Speaker 1: in the studio asking questions and um, it really was, um,

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Speaker 1: a very good experience. And I think that that Paul

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Speaker 1: came off so humbly, you know, he really came off

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Speaker 1: great and uh um you know. So you know, we

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Speaker 1: were lucky that he said yes, I'm proud of it.

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Speaker 1: With such a brief period three weeks before production, did

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Speaker 1: Rick feel that if he had to do it over again,

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Speaker 1: he would have done it differently, had enough time prepared.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was great, but what went through his mind, Well,

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Speaker 1: he did an extraordinary a he he's an extraordinary amount

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Speaker 1: of prep for it, as you might imagine Bob Lack

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Speaker 1: he would do for you know, doing him the Chili

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Speaker 1: Peppers album or something like that. So he went through

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Speaker 1: all the songs that he wanted to ask about and

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Speaker 1: not all of them were obvious ones. You know, he

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Speaker 1: didn't ask, you know, if you're if you're asking about tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: never knows you know, you're you're You're not necessarily asking

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Speaker 1: questions about the biggest hits. But he had a very

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Speaker 1: good sense for each song. We shared song ideas, we

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Speaker 1: shared ideas, but you know, very much of the creative

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Speaker 1: vision was Rix. To give credit here, Rick, Rick really

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Speaker 1: had an idea of what he wanted to do. He

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Speaker 1: was obviously he knew everything about the Beatles, and he

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Speaker 1: was very intrigued, mostly about the choices that the band

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Speaker 1: or Paul made at a particular question. He was very curious, like, well,

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Speaker 1: why would you decide to do that instead of this?

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Speaker 1: And I think as of you or it was really

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Speaker 1: interesting to watch that. So you have a Grand Slam

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Speaker 1: with Paul McCartney. Are their plans to do more? I

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Speaker 1: don't think so. Um, you know, you never say no,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think there's anything coming. I think we

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Speaker 1: all felt that, you know, we captured particular period for

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Speaker 1: Paul in a in a new way, which was great.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm asking do you have any more plans

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Speaker 1: you and Rick to do more with different interview subjects.

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Speaker 1: Good question. He is a very busy guy, and I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty busy myself. We've talked about it, but there's nothing

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Speaker 1: specific at this point. Okay, now, ten years ago, you

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Speaker 1: switch from radio consultancy to this music doc world. What

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Speaker 1: was going through your head? Why did you make that switch?

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Speaker 1: You know, Bobby, I was always a music guy. I

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Speaker 1: mean I was, even though I was in radio. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't a guy who considered himself a radio guy. I

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Speaker 1: was a music guy. I got into radio in college

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Speaker 1: because I loved music. The idea of playing music for

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Speaker 1: other people that I thought was great and might engage

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Speaker 1: other people was something that I really liked, and it was.

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Speaker 1: It was one of those non commercial um college stations

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Speaker 1: where we played jazz and classical music and we played

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Speaker 1: a little bit of rock, and I swore that I

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Speaker 1: had never worked at a radio station. I would play

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Speaker 1: anything commercial like Elton John. And then, of course two

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Speaker 1: years later, I am but so much for that. But

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Speaker 1: I I enjoyed that so much, and I was able

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Speaker 1: to get a part time job. I was in Denver

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Speaker 1: and I went to University of Denver, and I worked

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Speaker 1: at a commercial station. It would have been sort of

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Speaker 1: like the cam Et of Denver, and I worked there

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Speaker 1: part time and then I got the Overnight show. And

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Speaker 1: there was one profound thing that happened to me during

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Speaker 1: that experience, which I've always thought about, is I saw

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Speaker 1: sort of the legendary DJ and Denver. His name was

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Speaker 1: Bill Ashford. He was sort of like the Bert Mitchell

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Speaker 1: read or that kind of person that really is Scott

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Speaker 1: Muti of Denver. And what year are we in? This

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Speaker 1: is in the seventies, early seventies, and I, uh, well,

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Speaker 1: mid mid seventies. And at this point, um, I saw

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Speaker 1: this guy kind of discarded, like he didn't fit in

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Speaker 1: with the times. So he was replaced. And he was

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Speaker 1: a great music guy, and I was saying to myself,

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Speaker 1: I guess I better think about playing music other people

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Speaker 1: want to hear rather than just what I want to hear.

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Speaker 1: And that was a very big step for me. So

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Speaker 1: Elton John was on the radio, Bob there he was,

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Speaker 1: and I love great guy, but it wasn't what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to play. John culture, That's where I came from.

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Speaker 1: But so I worked my way up and worked for

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Speaker 1: commercial stations. Okay, let's I want to get to all that.

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Speaker 1: But first, what closed the transition ten years ago. It's

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Speaker 1: a good question because I had worked in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: I had started and worked on thirty to forty films

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Speaker 1: as a music supervisor. I was lucky enough to be

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Speaker 1: the guy people called who would once in a while

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Speaker 1: get one of his music choices in there, because it

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Speaker 1: was always you know, the director's daughter or the producer's

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Speaker 1: brother or everybody. Of course, we're experts on music. So

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Speaker 1: the idea you can actually get a song into a

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Speaker 1: movie that you thought actually might work, uh was. It

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Speaker 1: was nice to have happened. So I worked on a

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Speaker 1: bunch of UM films, some of which you actually even

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Speaker 1: have heard of, and and I noticed how interesting it

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Speaker 1: was as I observed what producers did and everything else

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Speaker 1: and the storytelling involved. It reminded me of my early

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Speaker 1: days in radio, which is all about storytelling. It's about

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Speaker 1: putting music together and storytelling. And I was lucky because

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Speaker 1: I met Frank Marshall on a UM some event we did.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out that Frank, who was obviously a

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Speaker 1: very well known producer, worked with Spielberg and still does

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Speaker 1: for all those years. And you know your audience would

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Speaker 1: know him from the born Identity films and the Jurassic

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Speaker 1: UH films and everything else, but that his father was

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Speaker 1: a professional musician. His father, Jack Marshall, played with Chet

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Speaker 1: Baker and Sinatra and everything else. And Frank always loved music,

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Speaker 1: and I said, why don't we do some music docs?

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Speaker 1: I said, you don't get paid much, but it's sure

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Speaker 1: is fun. And so we ended up coming together and

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Speaker 1: tackling the most difficult one to begin with, which which

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Speaker 1: was Sinatra. So we worked several years on that. I

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's a learning process, and I learned

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Speaker 1: that I have kind of a knack for doing this

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Speaker 1: and I really love doing it. And it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's UM having the relationships to be able to talk

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Speaker 1: to the estates and talk to the people and have

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Speaker 1: them trust you and believe that you're not going to

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Speaker 1: just make a film that UM is going to trivialize

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Speaker 1: or or or do things that are gossipy. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a gossip guy, I said. If you want to traffic

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Speaker 1: and gossip, then i'm your Then I'm not your guy.

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Speaker 1: If you want to talk about music and songwriting and arranging,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, like our Johnny Cash film, we

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Speaker 1: did it does deal with his drug issues, but only

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Speaker 1: as it relates to his touring and his music. I

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Speaker 1: I just that's not the stuff I'm interested in, you know. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you do the SATRU uh doc. At what point

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Speaker 1: do you push radio aside? It was happening. I sort

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Speaker 1: of evolved. I went from radio to still working with

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Speaker 1: radio and doing uh the music supervision and was working

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Speaker 1: with with Tom Preston who you know, and Judy and

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Speaker 1: van at at MTV and I worked with them for

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Speaker 1: a long time as a consultant and as a music

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Speaker 1: I and obviously music went away, so I, you know,

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Speaker 1: I shifted my responsibilities and then I worked for Spotify

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Speaker 1: for a lot of years. I was always interested in

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Speaker 1: sort of the new platform that would expose music. I've

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Speaker 1: always been very curious about that. And radio became less

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Speaker 1: of a priority for me. I just didn't enjoy it

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Speaker 1: as much. It didn't get me excited like it was

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Speaker 1: when I was a program director. When I was a

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Speaker 1: program director in Philadelphia, it was so exciting and creative,

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Speaker 1: and we had a lot of competitors, you know, and

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Speaker 1: you had to be really good to get people to

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Speaker 1: listen Deer station. And suddenly when I could buy my competitor. Uh,

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Speaker 1: then the it wasn't as challenging. You know, when when

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Speaker 1: the when the when the ownership rules changed, you know.

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Speaker 1: So okay, let's go back to the beginning. You're from

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Speaker 1: l A, right. What did your parents do for a living?

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Speaker 1: My both my parents are from the Midwest. I was

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Speaker 1: born here. I don't have anybody in entertainment in the

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Speaker 1: family at all, you know. Um, I have two brothers

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Speaker 1: and two sisters. My father was a corporate lawyer, and

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Speaker 1: my mom was uh, you know, a um, a wife

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Speaker 1: and a mom and a brilliant woman who inspired me greatly. Um.

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Speaker 1: And if there are five kids, where are you in

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Speaker 1: the hierarchy? I'm fourth out of five? And what did

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Speaker 1: the other four do these days? Why did their lives

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Speaker 1: play out? My oldest brother is retired and he was

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Speaker 1: in the vending business. Uh whatever that is. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what it was, still don't know what is. But um,

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Speaker 1: my sister is a psychologist. My brother was a Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court justice in Hawaii, in the state of Hawaii, so

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Speaker 1: he was a judge and he just retired from the bench.

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Speaker 1: And because of forcible retire they have age limits there.

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Speaker 1: I wish they had him here for our for our country.

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Speaker 1: Uh and um, and my youngest sister teaches at the

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Speaker 1: in northern California. So what what kind of kid will

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Speaker 1: you growing up? Growing up? Were you the kind of

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Speaker 1: kid who was alone? We remember the group? We are

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Speaker 1: leader of the group. What we like? I had a

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Speaker 1: lot of behavioral issues. Let us say I had gotten

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Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. My father was going to send

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Speaker 1: me to military school in Vancouver. I can tell you.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think on Victoria Island. That's how far

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Speaker 1: away that that guy won me away. So but my

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Speaker 1: mother wouldn't let him do it. Thanks to her, she

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Speaker 1: thought it would kind of break the spirit. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I got in a lot of trouble, but it was

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Speaker 1: nothing really malicious. I just was, you know, like most

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Speaker 1: kids looking for attention and doing things like that. You

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Speaker 1: could just go a little deeper, you know. What was

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Speaker 1: your bad behavior? Uh? Well? Um? I was chucked out

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Speaker 1: of three schools elementary schools, um and demoted at one

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Speaker 1: of them, another one in junior high. So they just

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Speaker 1: didn't like my behavior. You know, I just wouldn't listen

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Speaker 1: to anybody. I I'm not very good with authority, so

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Speaker 1: I I probably learned that from Jim Morrison. I just

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Speaker 1: had a big problem with the Actually, one of the

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Speaker 1: schools actually made you repeat a year. They wanted to

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Speaker 1: humiliate me, so they I was I think I was

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Speaker 1: in eighth grade and they made me go to a

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Speaker 1: seventh grade home room. And as a kid, that is

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Speaker 1: so embarrassing and humiliating. So but yeah, what happens in

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Speaker 1: the high school, Well you start to figure it out.

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Speaker 1: You start to figure it out. In around eleventh grade,

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Speaker 1: I figured, okay, so I can do these fun things

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Speaker 1: I want to do and start I started a club

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Speaker 1: called the Lizard Legion in high school, inspired by Jim Morrison,

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Speaker 1: and and signed up two people without them knowing what

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Speaker 1: the club was about. I mean, those are the kinds

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Speaker 1: of things that I figured out how to do. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm interested. So what was the Lizard Legion and what

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Speaker 1: was your goal? And what how how did it play out? We? Uh,

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Speaker 1: we're protesting the eating of iguanas as a delicacy in

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Speaker 1: South America. And I mean the whole thing, Bob was

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Speaker 1: just me spoofing the administration and trying to get them

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Speaker 1: to um and I gotta I gotta a sponsor. Who

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Speaker 1: was a teacher and all that. The administration thought it

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Speaker 1: was a political organization. I thought it was some sort

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Speaker 1: of leftist organization, and it was it was me figuring

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Speaker 1: out how to work the system finally, rather than them

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Speaker 1: throwing me out. I was kind of challenging them with

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Speaker 1: a bit of humor wrapped up in the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: You know. It was just like, you know, okay, this

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Speaker 1: is a public or private school. Public, it's a Grand

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Speaker 1: Grant high school, and uh in North Hollywood. Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is what I'm interested in. You know, you're a relatively

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Speaker 1: saw spoken guy, but you have all these relationships and

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Speaker 1: you work those relationships. What are the roots of that

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Speaker 1: activity in that skill? Well, I work hard. I like

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Speaker 1: to all that. Um. I'm not always calling people for favors.

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Speaker 1: I think that you know in in um, I think

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Speaker 1: to call and and tell somebody that you like their

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Speaker 1: record or that hey, you like the show or something. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's there's you know, this is a relationship

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Speaker 1: built on people. And if you're always calling just asking

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Speaker 1: for favors or something, Hey can I do a film

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Speaker 1: about this guy? Or can I do this? You know,

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Speaker 1: my relationships have always been too I'd like to think

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Speaker 1: somebody could say, hey, do you mind if I send

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Speaker 1: you a copy of this record and tell me what

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Speaker 1: you think or what you think of this single, or

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Speaker 1: you know, would you come to the show and listen?

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean it's I I think it's it's um.

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Speaker 1: I value those relationships. I don't burn them. I don't

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Speaker 1: um um. If something is a secret, it's a secret.

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Speaker 1: And um, you know you and I probably are you know,

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Speaker 1: have access to a lot of people sharing stuff with us.

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Speaker 1: That's uh block and that's also confidential. And I think

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Speaker 1: you really have to honor those relationships. You have the

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Speaker 1: incentive to start the Lizard Legion. You ultimately had your

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Speaker 1: own radio consultancy with multiple employees where owners depending on

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Speaker 1: how you defined it, dot entrepreneurship, that ability to start things.

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Speaker 1: Where do you think that came from? I think my father.

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Speaker 1: He didn't like the word no very much, and I

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Speaker 1: don't like it either. And it people will tell you

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Speaker 1: who know me, well is doesn't Jeff ever give up?

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Speaker 1: But you know, if I've had no, then I'll say, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's another way to do it. And I saw

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Speaker 1: that in my home, where my father would talk about

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Speaker 1: somebody said, well, we can't really move put the kitchen. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We kept at the oven there in the kitchen because

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Speaker 1: it won't fit there. And he said, well, what if

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00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: we tried this or try that? He was always it's

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Speaker 1: like what if? And I think the thing that has

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Speaker 1: driven my entire life without me able to to articulate it,

385
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: but I can now, is the worst somebody can say

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Speaker 1: to you is no. So if that's the case, Bob,

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Speaker 1: you've got to go for it. You've got to try.

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Speaker 1: You've got to do something that you know. And that's

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Speaker 1: the thing with McCartney. I knew he wouldn't say yes.

390
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Speaker 1: It was impossible, you know, like and then he did.

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Speaker 1: And once in a while, something you'll get a yes

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Speaker 1: if you if if you give it a shot. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I have two kids here, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that they've learned that from me, that you know, you

395
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Speaker 1: really have to give it a go. I mean, the

396
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Speaker 1: idea of me leaving Philadelphia. When I left Philly to

397
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Speaker 1: start a consultancy, I had no I idea about being

398
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Speaker 1: a consultant. I don't even know what that was. I

399
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Speaker 1: just had a few people call me up after the

400
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Speaker 1: success in Philadelphia, said Hey, I don't know what you

401
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: did there? Every can you do it for me? And

402
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: I said to my parents, like, I guess that's a job.

403
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, you know, I'll move back

404
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Speaker 1: home and I'll start a company and then and then

405
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: you work hard and realized that you can make something

406
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Speaker 1: of it. Okay. So was there music in the household?

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Speaker 1: Did you grow up with music in the sixties in

408
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Speaker 1: l A. I mean, that's a privilege. So how connected

409
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: were you to music before you went away to college. Well,

410
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: I grew up with classical music, so, um, yeah, my

411
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Speaker 1: parents weren't into jazz, even though my mom loved Elavizgerald,

412
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Speaker 1: but she um, but classical we went as a kid.

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Speaker 1: So we would go all the time to the Philharmonic.

414
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Speaker 1: We'd go to the Hollyway Bowl. We we we you know,

415
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Speaker 1: and they had these concerts for young people. So my

416
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Speaker 1: knowledge of classical music is pretty significant based on just

417
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,719
Speaker 1: growing up with it, you know. Um. And instead of

418
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Speaker 1: my mother saying don't be in a rock band, what

419
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: I was in in high school, she she was excited

420
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Speaker 1: because it was music for her. It was you know,

421
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Speaker 1: she didn't worry about whether it was you know, classico

422
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Speaker 1: or something that she would personally like. She liked the

423
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: fact that I was, you know, in a band. Okay,

424
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Speaker 1: did you take piano lessons or you just pick up

425
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Speaker 1: the guitar when you saw the Beatles on TV. I

426
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Speaker 1: took piano lessons, and that I, um, like most people,

427
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: aspired to be in a band. Uh. And I wasn't

428
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: a particularly good singer, and I was a decent piano player,

429
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: which is what I ended up being in a band.

430
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: But certainly would not give Bruce horns By any stage

431
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: fright from me appearing on stage with him. So at

432
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: what point did you say this is not a future

433
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: or do you always know playing wasn't a future? You know?

434
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: When I went to college in Colorado and I was

435
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: still in a band, and I had a band in college,

436
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: and then I started working at the college radio station,

437
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: I said, well, wow, this is fun. I can be

438
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: around music and I don't have to play, and in fact,

439
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: I get to share what I think is good. So

440
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: I could play Billy Holiday and then I could play

441
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: fair Port Convention, and I could play all these things

442
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: that I loved. And it was a non commercial station.

443
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: So it's a blessing and we're no ratings. Uh, And

444
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: so that was really what changed it for me as

445
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: I realized I could still be around music and uh,

446
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: but wouldn't have to necessarily be in a band. Okay,

447
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: in the sixties, before you went away to Colorado, did

448
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: you go to a lot of shows by a lot

449
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: of records. Oh? Yes, I was, you know, I mean

450
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: I love music and I was heavily influenced by it.

451
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: Um you know, um growing up in l A. Bob,

452
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: you go to shows earlier. It's sort of interesting. It

453
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: is ridiculous if you look at some of the gigs

454
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: for some of these famous sixties bands where they played.

455
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you could go to high school and it

456
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: would be the doors. Jefferson Airplay, a whole list of

457
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: groups playing because they didn't have any place to play,

458
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: you know then, and they were just getting going. So

459
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: if you look at what's really interesting, if you I'm

460
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: doing a film on Jim Morrison next, and if you

461
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: do the look at the first six months of nineteen

462
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: sixty seven before like my Fire really took off. They're

463
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: playing teen centers, they're playing high schools. And then suddenly

464
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: in the second half after you know, Sullivan and some

465
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: of the other things. Suddenly they're playing these much larger arenas.

466
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: But I was lucky because I could see a lot

467
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: of these bands player. I saw the doors played at

468
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: the Hollywood Bowl. That was my first big show. Wow.

469
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,239
Speaker 1: So why go to college in Colorado? Well, let me

470
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: just say that my grades weren't very good. Bob. I

471
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: would say that the Lizard Legion and other activities led

472
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: to a less of an academic focus for me. And

473
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: so I suddenly found that at the end of my

474
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: senior year that my grades were pretty bad. And um,

475
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: the options for this young valley boy weren't great. I

476
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: was not going to be going to the Ivy League.

477
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: So I got into University of Denver, but only after

478
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: they rejected me. And then my father wrote a letter

479
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: and they put me on parole because they didn't think

480
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: well the scott obviously with these and these grades were

481
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: not good, you know. Uh. And then of course i've

482
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: you know again, like the story I mentioned about, you know,

483
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: going from eighth grade to seventh grade home room. Um,

484
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: when you're on probation, then I made the dean's list. Yeah, well,

485
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: because they're gonna you don't don't tell me I'm stupid

486
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: or I can't do it. Don't don't do that to me.

487
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: So you mean I have to apply myself. Okay, I'll

488
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,959
Speaker 1: apply myself. So I went to school for three years,

489
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: fell in love with radio, or at least music on

490
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: the radio, and never finished. What your parents have to

491
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: say about not finishing where they were extremely unhappy with that.

492
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: They didn't care what I did, but they did not

493
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: They didn't like the fact because for them, of course,

494
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: it was very important. And for my mom, who went

495
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:53,239
Speaker 1: to college, um, it was an automatic for you know,

496
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: somebody of her generation to go to college, so she

497
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: really felt it was super important. Okay, so you left

498
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: school because he had a job offer. Yes. In fact,

499
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: I saw a professor of mine pumping gas as a

500
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: second job, and I said, well, if I got a job,

501
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: should I just take it? And like Evison, so I

502
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: got a full time job doing the overnight show. Okay,

503
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: did you pitch them? How did you actually get the job? Oh?

504
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: They they heard me on the college station. And it's

505
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: much less than it used to be, Bob. But college

506
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: radio was a great farm club for commercial radio. A

507
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: lot of people worked there, and you know, if you

508
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: were in a city and you had a part time

509
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: job open, where would you go? There weren't a million

510
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: people around, So you listened to some guy on the

511
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: college station. He goes, okay, he's okay, I'll hire him.

512
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: You know, you remember how much they were paying you?

513
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: Oh uh, I think it was. I do know. My

514
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: first full time job, I remember in when I moved

515
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: into Mexico after working overnight in Denver, I was being

516
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: paid five a month. I remember that. Okay, so let's

517
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: get the steps right. You're in your overnights in Denver. Yeah,

518
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: And when do you quit college and how do you

519
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: end up in New Mexico. Well, I couldn't, you know,

520
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I stopped going to class because I couldn't

521
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: you six nights a week, thirty six hours. You know.

522
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: I was living with four other roommates. They're all girls,

523
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: and and I wasn't I didn't have a relationship with

524
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: any of them. But they were noisy as hell, and

525
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it was a not a good situation.

526
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: So school just kind of disappeared, and I got a

527
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: full time job, and then I got off to start

528
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: a brand new station in New Mexico. And so the

529
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: FIS looked good to me because it was way more

530
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,239
Speaker 1: than what I was getting. I don't know what it was.

531
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 1: But okay, well, how did you end up living with

532
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: four women? Probably cheap? You know. The reason I'm asking

533
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: is do you have a natural affinity with women? A

534
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: lot of guys really don't. Well, I really like women

535
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: and respect women. And um, I grew up in a

536
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: house where there weren't any traditional roles. Really. I mean,

537
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: my father and mother both cooked, they both did the dishes,

538
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: they both you know, I mean, it wasn't I didn't

539
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: need to relearn. Uh you know, my mom was brilliant,

540
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the way she was. So

541
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: I it's not like I had to make a readjustment

542
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: to kenyes that women were as smart or smarter than

543
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: men are. So I always, I guess I always got

544
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: along well with with women. Okay, So where New Mexico

545
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: is the station and what plays out there? Albuquerque, New Mexico.

546
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: Um and uh we. I was there for about two

547
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: years and then got a job offered to go leave

548
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: there and go back to the big FM rock station

549
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: in Denver, which is still their KBP. I that was

550
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: sort of like the one of the big stations in

551
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: the West, and so I took that job because I

552
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: also missed Denver. I really loved Denver, and you know

553
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: it's I don't need to tell you it's fantastic. Colorado

554
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: is the best, and I could go back there, and

555
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. New Mexico was interesting, but it's the desert.

556
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: So okay, you go back to Colorado. What's the step

557
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: After Denver? I get hired by a guy calls me

558
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: up and says, we have this job opening to be

559
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: a program director. And I had never been a program

560
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: director before. I was a music director, uh in the

561
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: lovely city of Fresno. And I said, and I'm from

562
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: l A, so I know about Fresno. I said, I'm

563
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: not going to Fresno. He goes, you want to be

564
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: a program director. I said, yes, You're going to Fresno. Okay,

565
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: So off I went. And it was a It was

566
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: this radio station, UH called Kino FM. And then six

567
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: months after that, I ended up being promoted to work

568
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: for a company owned by Bill Drake and Jean Channel

569
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: called Drake Chanlton. Of course, Bill Drake as you know

570
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: as the radio pioneer, the guy who Boss Radio and

571
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: all that came from. And I ended up working for him,

572
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: and it was impossible not to learn uh from somebody

573
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: like that about radio because I really didn't. I was

574
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: really doing um adopting a lot of the things that

575
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: he did until I met him. You know, Okay, you

576
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: go to work for Drake Chanelle and uh so continue,

577
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: how do you ultimately end up in Philadelphia? Yeah? And

578
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: and just to say you asked about consulting. The interesting

579
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 1: thing about working for Directional it was I was sort

580
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: of a consultant working for them, traveling to these small

581
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: markets all over the country. I mean, I wasn't going

582
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: to Detroit. I was going to Sall for Louisiana. You know, Hey,

583
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: here's a guy from Drake Chanale. He's gonna tell us

584
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: what we can do. So and then I got a

585
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: job offer to work uh at w MMR in Philadelphia.

586
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: And I told my parents I never lived in Philly before,

587
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: And I said, all right, you've asked him what I'm

588
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: gonna do with my life. They've had three program directors

589
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 1: at this station in the last two years. I'll go there,

590
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: I'll get fired, and then I'll come home and get

591
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: a real job. I promise my parents goes Okay, that

592
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: sounds sensible. Because I said, I'll just be another one

593
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: of those losers that they hire and get rid of.

594
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: And I went there and the guy who's when he

595
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: did the job interview was Metromedia at the time. The

596
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: guy goes, well, you're pretty young. What makes you think

597
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: you can do this? And I said, I remember this

598
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: quote verbatim Bob. I said, it's not how long you

599
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: play the It's not it's not how long you play

600
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: the guitar, it's how you play it. And he goes, oh, okay,

601
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: So I got the job and we're okay. So you

602
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: get the job and you're no longer on the air. Correct,

603
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: no longer on the air. And I didn't miss it.

604
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: I I you know, I you know it was It

605
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: felt like it's something that was there. But suddenly I

606
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: go to a station that has dead last one point

607
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: two ratings in Philadelphia, barely on the air, and this

608
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: is the Legacy Great station. There. There's two other rock stations,

609
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: uh w Y SP ANDQ. And when I got there,

610
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: I was just like, l a, oh, this guy doesn't

611
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: know Philly, he doesn't know anything, blah blah blah. So

612
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: I come there and uh, Larry Maggot Electric factory, famous promoter.

613
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 1: I have a meeting with him. He looks, he kind

614
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: of rolls his eyes, like, okay, here's the latest in

615
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: the series of And I said, I'd like to promote

616
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: some concerts. He goes, sure, sure, sure, sure. So the

617
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: week I get there, one guy's got Billy Joel, one

618
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 1: guy's Bruce Frinkstein and goes, I'll tell you what, We've

619
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: got Jehan lu Ponti playing the Tower Theater. And I

620
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: said I'll take it because it was like, you know,

621
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 1: because they were they weren't going to give me anything good,

622
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: you know, they just so And it was all based

623
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: on on ratings. So I got there, you know, you

624
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: had to be again, I was too young to be scared.

625
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 1: I suppose and fired ten people my first week there. Um,

626
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't like that part of it at all,

627
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: but I knew with the people I had, I couldn't

628
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: go forward. I hired a bunch of people. The evening guy,

629
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure whether I should keep him or not.

630
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: He introduced to SO, so, my name is Mark Goodman.

631
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: I said, well, Mark, you're gonna have to do better

632
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: than you're doing man, you know, So I kept him

633
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: and but it was very interesting because what I realized

634
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: about the BMMR, and maybe because it was I was

635
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: an outsider. I realized that people still loved the station.

636
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: They had great affection for the station. They wanted it

637
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: to be successful. So I said, okay, I'm going to

638
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: bring back all the famous DJs. That's the first thing

639
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: I did, and they go. Michael Tearson's back doing evenings,

640
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: Joe Banna Donna. I met Joe Banna Donna, who was

641
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 1: the afternoon drive guy. He'd been fired the week before

642
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: I got there. I said, you are rehired. Okay, I

643
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: know you've got severance, good for you, but you're now rehired.

644
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: And I what happened was I changed the station internally,

645
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 1: Bob and I. But it was camouflaged by bringing back

646
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: all the old jocks and bringing back all the heritage

647
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: of the station. It was and I wasn't doing it

648
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: really consciously, more than just saying, hey, these people are great.

649
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 1: Let's bring back what's great about the station. But internally,

650
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: let's change what we're playing. And every time I went

651
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: to Philly, uh, when I was doing the interview, because well,

652
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, this is not a rock town, I go really,

653
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: I said, I'm from California. We've got a bunch of

654
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: rock stations. I said, I don't care. We're going to

655
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: rock the station. And instead of being like this quasi acoustic,

656
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: you know, boring station, and the station thundered on the

657
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: you know, it was absolutely rocking, and people go, this

658
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: guy clearly doesn't understand Philadelphia. You don't get it. It's

659
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: you don't get it. So the rating was rocketed because

660
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: of this guy you didn't know anything. It's like literally,

661
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 1: you know, instead of you know. But the interesting thing

662
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: was we didn't strip out the the what mattered. We

663
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: didn't strip out the culture. We didn't strip ove. I mean,

664
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: we still played obscure Springsteen's songs or Graham Parker or

665
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: you know talking. I mean, it's not like we we

666
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: just learned to balance those with songs people wanted. It

667
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: was sort of like, you know, let's let's pull people

668
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: in with this and then then we can be interesting

669
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: and do this and we won't lose our character. And

670
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: so um people really connected with the station. The station

671
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: just rocketed two and we just clabored the two stations.

672
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: Within four months, we had beat both other stations, and

673
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: then we ended up getting ratings that were almost a

674
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: seven share in Philly, and I said, it is not

675
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: going up from here. It is going to go down

676
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: from here, and everybody's gonna start saying what you do wrong?

677
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: What did you change? You obviously shifted something and start

678
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: questioning you. And so I quit when the station went

679
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: at was at its height. People go people don't quit

680
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: when this stage, when you become quote a consultant or

681
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: work for yourself, whatever it is, you got to leave

682
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: a losing proposition, and then started you can't leave when

683
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: you're on top. I said, I'm out of here. So

684
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 1: a year and a half later, I moved back to California. Okay,

685
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: you quit. When did you tell me how you ultimately

686
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: got what you were talking earlier? It seems like you

687
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: got the client first and then decided to become a consultant.

688
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: How did that play At the very beginning in the

689
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: genesis of it? Well, I started having calls for to

690
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: move to First of all, kal O West called me

691
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: and said, do you want to become program director of

692
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 1: the station? I said not really, and the guy was astounded.

693
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: I said, w MMR is a great station. Why would

694
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: I leave that station? It's not really. And and because

695
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: I'm from l A, Bob, it wasn't like I gotta

696
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: move to l A the big time. I said, yeah,

697
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: you mean move home. Yeah, I'll move home. But so

698
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: I had a So then w P l J New

699
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: York as you know, Kilos and a station in Rochester,

700
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: New York called me and said we would like you

701
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: to work for us and tell us how to do

702
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: what you did in Philly. You know, I said, okay,

703
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: I quit. So and they were astounded. They couldn't believe

704
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: that I quit. Could you make as much money consulting

705
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: three stations as you had being the program director at MMR, Yes,

706
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: yes it was. It was not a lot more, but

707
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: it was more. So you're consulting three stations. Yeah, I'm

708
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: sure at the beginning you were heavily involved. What was

709
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: your magic that ultimately grew your business? Well, I had

710
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: three stations. When you start out with l A and

711
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: New York, you get people's attention and and what happened

712
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia really was a very public turnaround. So people

713
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: noticed it, and so people knew who I was, and uh,

714
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: they would call you be incoming calls at that point,

715
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: you know, you'd say, and I remember even turning one

716
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: down and Providence goes, you're turning me down because you're

717
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 1: too tired. I said, I'm full. I can't. So then

718
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: you start the process. Am I gonna build a company?

719
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: And you hire other people and that that's what happened.

720
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: And so you go from that to a hundred period

721
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: of you know, like six years. It was crazy. Okay,

722
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 1: so you what is the special sauce that you tell

723
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: these stations? Was every station different? What is the pollock?

724
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 1: You know? Plan? Well? Look, I had I had one

725
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: big competitor who I liked enormously personally, which was Lee Abrams.

726
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: And uh, he did things a little bit differently because

727
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: it's a little easier to send out lists and make

728
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: everything more um system oriented. Um. I really felt that

729
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: these stations had to reflect the cities they were in

730
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: and and and that's what Philly really taught me, because

731
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: if you went there and listen to the w m

732
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: R that you have no idea that the guy who

733
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: was programming the station was from Philip was from Los Angeles,

734
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 1: You would have no idea he was as Philly as

735
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: can be. It sounded like this guy must have grown

736
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: up in Jersey or something, and and to be fair,

737
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: I had great people, so they would tell me when

738
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 1: I was off base about something, and I did my homework.

739
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: You know, I talked to tons of people as the

740
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: old fashioned walk around everywhere, talk to people, what are

741
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,479
Speaker 1: you listening to? What do you like? You know, and

742
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: and not not identify who I was, and you'd hear

743
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 1: and understand. Not very scientific, but you know, it's still

744
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: kind of worked. So the secret sauce and I thought

745
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: about this a lot. I was really producing Bob that

746
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: station more than programming it. The station was. It was

747
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: exciting and fun and it did weird things. I was

748
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 1: able to get some of my weird sense of humor

749
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: on the air sometimes where people goes, well what did

750
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: that mean? And I say nothing. I thought it was

751
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: funny and I put it on the air and some

752
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: of the stuff would fall flat. But I mean I

753
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 1: remember doing a toast with a steel Ie Span song

754
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: on who I loved, of course being uncommercial, but I

755
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: love them. We did a toast for Christmas and I

756
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: played an acapell a song by them. Because I wasn't

757
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: afraid that I was going to lose the audience. I

758
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: just said this would be cool, this would be fun. No,

759
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: this song doesn't call out this this is but it

760
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: shows you that if enough is going right, you can

761
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: break the rules once in a while and still be

762
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. So the secret sauce was let people

763
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: be themselves. If they needed to help with their playlists

764
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: and if their way out, yes I'd help them figure

765
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: that out. But I never wanted to lose the character

766
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: of the city. I wanted the Rochester station to really

767
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: reflect that, and I cared a lot. I think that's

768
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: the reason I was able to work in Europe because

769
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: very early I worked in Europe and Australia and I

770
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: was so conscious of the culture of those countries. I

771
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 1: wanted to know who the who the politicians were and

772
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 1: what were the cool places to go, and be able

773
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: to mention things like that in conversations with people so

774
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: that they saw that, oh, this guy's not I know

775
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: at all Yank, this guy isn't like America first, this

776
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: guy actually cares about So I worked in France early on,

777
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: I worked in England, and in fact that's one of

778
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: the reasons I worked for MTV International first before MTV,

779
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: because they said, well, this guy seems to know Europe

780
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: really well, which I did. I spent a lot of

781
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: time there, and I really spent time. I really respect culture.

782
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: I really think that that's a very important part of

783
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: understanding people. And so um, I think that's uh something

784
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: I took from Philadelphia with me throughout. Okay, so you

785
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: start with three stations, essentially every station that comes thereafter

786
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: they're calling you or you ever marketing yourself. Oh after,

787
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: after I built a company, I definitely would chase the

788
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: station or and I would love to take a station

789
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: away from Abrahams if I could. You know, you know,

790
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: I said, you've got a lot of stations. I'm just

791
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: gonna steal this went away from you, you know. So

792
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 1: uh we never uh. People couldn't understand why I could

793
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: be so aggressive on the air or with what I

794
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: was doing and being polite in person. And just because

795
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: you're aggressive doesn't mean you have to lose your manners, right,

796
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: You don't have to be a jerk. So um and

797
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: and so I think we we we got to a

798
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: point where we had a lot of stations, and I

799
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: brought in more people, and then and then the company

800
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: grew and I started working internationally, which I loved, which

801
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: was really interesting to me because Okay, before we get there,

802
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: so it's you. Then you start hiring people who have

803
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 1: really big jobs. Tommy Hodges, yes, he's a program director.

804
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: What is your pitch to these people to leave the

805
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: stations come work for you? Um? Well, Tommy was the

806
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: program director in Boston, and I convinced him to take

807
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 1: the l A job, the kale Os job. I really

808
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: needed a program director because I was suddenly like I

809
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 1: moved to l A on something like the program director.

810
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: I'm not the program director. That's not what I signed up.

811
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 1: We need a program director. So I had met him

812
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: and really liked him enormously, and I said, would you

813
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: take this job and go straight? He came out and

814
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: then he decided not to come. So I waited a

815
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,959
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, I said, called him over and said

816
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: any regrets he goes, yeah, I said, good, come now

817
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: so he can. That's part of being you know, not

818
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: giving up on somebody, you know. So he came and

819
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: then five years after he was at kale O s

820
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I said to him, and we

821
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: did this with with his boss to make sure that

822
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: he was cool. I said, um, he loved the idea

823
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: of traveling around and talking to other people, because you know,

824
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: once you've been at a station for a long time,

825
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: the idea of traveling and meeting new people and working

826
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: with other people was very interesting, and and so he

827
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: joined up uh five years after klaws. How do you

828
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: decide what to charge the station? There's a going rate

829
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: and you do by bye bye. Well there was before

830
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: I started, and there was um and it would be

831
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: by market size, so you know, it might be a

832
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: month in Rochester, it might be three K a month

833
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: and l A, you know, but then the then it

834
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: changed and you know, the more competitors. The guy goes, well,

835
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: you know, I I do it for two km months,

836
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, so it was it was

837
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: that kind of after that started happening, and especially when

838
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: the the rolled around, I saw the writing on the

839
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: wall goes, okay, so you're gonna let these companies get

840
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: really big by their competitors and eliminate competition. That doesn't

841
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: sound like fun, because if I don't have to be

842
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: great to win, then I don't need to hire anybody.

843
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: And then I said, okay, that feels like, you know,

844
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a timer on how much we're able

845
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: to do here. Okay, you go from being a guy

846
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: in Denver to controlling a hundred stations. How does that?

847
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: You know, you're a guy who grew up in music,

848
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: you're suddenly meeting your heroes. Well, what did that feel like?

849
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:52,240
Speaker 1: And how did what we do take advantage work with that? Well?

850
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: I think that you he sort of never imagine you're

851
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: going to meet these people, Bob. You know, if you

852
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: grow up admiring whoever it was, UM, and at some

853
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 1: point their career and your career converges, and that is

854
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: mind blowing and you need to always be mindful. I

855
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: don't think I ever lost the perspective of why people, UM,

856
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: we're excited to meet you if you're an artist. You know,

857
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: it was the chair I was sitting in. It wasn't

858
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: like I was a great guy. Okay, now I happened

859
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 1: to be somebody who was enthusiastic about music. I wasn't

860
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: interested in, you know, manipulating any kind of relationship so

861
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: that you know, I could I feel like I was

862
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: super powerful or anything else. I I didn't like that game.

863
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: I don't like that aim. It's not what I'm interested in.

864
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: I like honestly, being able to tell somebody what you

865
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: think of their record or or that you're going to

866
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: be supportive. And so that was that was an interesting moment.

867
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: But I knew all along those things shift and suddenly

868
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 1: if it was radio, and then it was MTV, and

869
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: then it was Spotify, those gatekeepers. It's a transitory thing, right,

870
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: and it's uh something that and it's not like radio

871
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,919
Speaker 1: still isn't super important. It is, but there's so many

872
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: other platforms doing it that you know, it's something that

873
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: you you just have to realize that we're your places

874
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: in the universe. Now, are any of the celebrities real

875
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: friends or is it all business friends? I have some

876
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 1: real friends, um that I They're not a lot, though, Bob,

877
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: there's not a lot, because give me one or two

878
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: people might be real friends. I'd rather not mention them

879
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 1: by name, um, if you don't mind. But I do

880
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,479
Speaker 1: have some people who are interested in how my kids

881
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: are doing, and they remember my birthday and they like

882
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: to have dinner even if I can't not in a

883
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: position to you know, those are real friends. And I

884
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: think you learned that. Look, I had Midwest parents, you know,

885
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 1: they not common sense into me. A long time ago.

886
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 1: I never was nature, I suppose, especially growing up in

887
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: a city like this. You know, your you know, your

888
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: next door neighbor's dad writes on a TV show and

889
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: you So it wasn't you know, it wasn't remarkable. But

890
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: I think you know, you know, I really respect the

891
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: job these people do. They put themselves out there, and

892
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: I think they recognize that. Um, how I view the process,

893
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,839
Speaker 1: you know, Okay, Now, certainly at the end of the

894
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: heyday of rock radio, uh, Jeff McCluskey had his business.

895
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: Then it was about people can't see my air quotes

896
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: about owning a record and if you didn't pay him,

897
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: or it was everybody at this point. Well, I'm just

898
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: asking you they would keep your record off? To what degree?

899
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: Did that in fact or did you have to do

900
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: that your business? I did. It didn't interact with me

901
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: at all. That wasn't because you because you were already

902
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: out or you could do it your way. I could

903
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: do it my way. And also, people know if you

904
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: are straight, are not, and they knew that that's the

905
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,959
Speaker 1: way I was, you know, So you know, it wasn't

906
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: anything that I wasn't on a power trip and I

907
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: didn't care about that stuff. Okay, do you ever tell

908
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: an act this is what you need to do on

909
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: your record? I think it's the problem is like what

910
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: Jimmy Iving said to me once. He said, if if

911
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: an artist really wants to have my honest opinion, don't

912
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: hand me and c D and plastic. I mean, that's perfect,

913
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: but sometimes people are in the beginning of the project

914
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: as opposed to the end. I think what you can do,

915
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: Bob is, look, you have really good ears. I have

916
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: really good ears because we've done it a long time. Okay,

917
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: we kind of know what the market likes and doesn't like.

918
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: We can separate are personal opinion from what perhaps the

919
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: market opinion might because there's obviously two separate things. But

920
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: I'll certainly if somebody says, what do you think the

921
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: lead track ought to be? Or what do you think

922
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: the single should be? I'm happy to do that. I'm

923
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: not always right, but you know, if you make an album,

924
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: you have no clue. I can't tell you how many

925
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: times people come and here's the single. I go, no,

926
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: that's not you know, if you're you're involved in making

927
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: a record, you just cannot I agree totally they have

928
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: no sense. But the worst have no idea. They have

929
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 1: no idea, and so if you can provide a service

930
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: when I say a service in opinion and say hey,

931
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: this is what I think the song should be. I

932
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: remember being backstage at a K rock concert Um, and

933
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: the label at the time was talking about moving on

934
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: from Clocks from Coldplay because it wasn't a hit. I said,

935
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: you are nuts, give it time. That song is a hit.

936
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: You know what it's like, they're you know the the

937
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: you know, if it's not happening, let's move on. And

938
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: it's even worse now, right, It's got to happen right now. Okay,

939
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: So in your tenure as a consultant, tell me a

940
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 1: couple of records that you really feel responsible for making successful.

941
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 1: By myself, there was none but um helping gosh. Um.

942
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 1: That's interesting. It's a lot of years. I probably can

943
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: remember more from I think just being an early supporter

944
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: of of bands that ended up being really good, like Dires,

945
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: Straits or something where you'd go. I remember the Warner's

946
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: rep from Boston came to see me in Philadelphia and

947
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: this was the time, Bob that they had every band

948
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: had a weird name, fabulous poodles, blah, blah blah blah blah,

949
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: and most of those bands were mediocre. And so I

950
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: go into the place where the record people would wait

951
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: for you until you were done, you know, talking to somebody,

952
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: and I look around and there's like this librarian. This

953
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: woman looks like in the library. Because Hi, I'm the

954
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: Warner's rep. I go, nice to meet you. What do

955
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: you got? Well, I got this band, Dire Straits, I said,

956
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, another name which is And then you

957
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: hear Saltan's swing and you flip out because you haven't

958
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: heard anything like that. So I'd like to think that

959
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:40,439
Speaker 1: there was a number of circumstances along the way where

960
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: I would have heard something great and supported it early.

961
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: I know that I was probably late, like everybody was

962
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: on never mind, I think I think that was again

963
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: one of the times when the public was way ahead

964
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: of the gatekeepers. We were behind, they were ahead. I

965
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: asked the manager of Nirvana at the time, you remember,

966
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: Danny Goldberg, well and I and I talked to him

967
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: a couple of months after. I said, what is happening

968
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: with this record? He goes, I have no idea, which

969
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: was the honest way to look at it. It was

970
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: guess what. Sometimes the public is ahead of you, and

971
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: that's that's what happened. Okay, So tell me how you

972
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:31,439
Speaker 1: spread into Europe and Australia. Oh, in Australia, I got

973
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: a call from Brisbane in nineteen it was the early

974
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 1: eighties and he goes, hey, we read about you and

975
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: our radio records. Uh, we can't pay you anything, which

976
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: is always a good great sales I've I've used that

977
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: in the future. I can't can't pay you anything, but

978
01:02:53,440 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: we'll bring you down here to Australia. And so I said,

979
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: you know, and of course at that time, what do

980
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: you have to lose? Right? So you go down see

981
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: Koala bears for the first time. It's awesome. And in

982
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: two years I had five clients there in all the

983
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: major cities. And I guess it's because you know, you

984
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: had I had an attitude like, well why not, you know,

985
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: give it a go. Not everything has to be driven

986
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: by money, you know. I have faith, have faith that

987
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: something good can happen. You know you don't do today, Bob,

988
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: I don't make music documentaries because it's financially rewarding. I

989
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: can assure you that there are other ways. Um, but

990
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 1: you must have been doing quite well in the heyday

991
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: of the Consultancy, which ran for a good number of Yes,

992
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: it did, and I did well, And I'm not complaining.

993
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I am grateful, and I think that, you know,

994
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: the fact that I can do something on a band

995
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: that I grew up with like The Doors now, like

996
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: Jim Morrison, is mind blowing to me. And guess what

997
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 1: I want to do, Bob is I want to race

998
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: that image from Oliver Stone's movie I Am Determined. I

999
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: sort of have a little mission in my head and

1000
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: about some of these things. And well we'll get a

1001
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: little bit more into that. But once you start making

1002
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: real money, what do you do with it? I but

1003
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 1: the house, That's pretty much it. And and then I

1004
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 1: got married and I had less money. So but you know,

1005
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: I I wasn't you know, I was fortunate. Look, I

1006
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 1: was just a DJ, and I was just a guy

1007
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 1: worked at a commercial free station. I look at the

1008
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: fact that I could make a good living doing this

1009
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 1: and to be around music and to meet staying once

1010
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: in a while, that was cool, right. You gotta be grateful. Absolutely,

1011
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 1: So how did you get into Europe? Europe? Was um,

1012
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think. I remember it was the mid

1013
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 1: eighties and I started working UM. I did a project

1014
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: for europe One, which was a news outlet, a gigantic

1015
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 1: national like the BBC kind of of of France, and

1016
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: they were they wanted to start an FM station, So

1017
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: I launched an FM hot a C station and and

1018
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: the thing with France, of course, it's a national signal,

1019
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 1: it's not just Paris goes everywhere. And I started working

1020
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: for a French company and I put on the first

1021
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 1: station in Moscow, you know, several years later, and in Prague,

1022
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 1: and it was really amazing being in Eastern Europe and

1023
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: uh being part of it. That's really what I felt like.

1024
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: I was doing something interesting. It wasn't just about up

1025
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: UM radio is for for them, it was what they

1026
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: listened to when they were you know, uh, part of

1027
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 1: the you know, the Iron Curtain and UM when these

1028
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 1: stations came out UM and it was really a part

1029
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: of the new freedom that these these countries had an experience,

1030
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: and it was great to be part of that. Okay,

1031
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 1: now you were in America, were known as an A. O. R.

1032
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: Guy album rock? Was that what you sold around the

1033
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 1: world or did you Taylor the playlist for whatever mark

1034
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, obviously tailored to a degree, But was

1035
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 1: that the sound you were putting on these varying stations,

1036
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think Australia, Yes, they were pretty much

1037
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: rock stations, heavily dominated by Australian bands, of which there

1038
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: were a lot, and like Hanada, Australia had a rule

1039
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: at the time where I think it was of all

1040
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 1: the music had to be from Australia. That wasn't the

1041
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 1: case in Europe. But in Europe there were no there

1042
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: was no rock. We weren't doing rock there. It was

1043
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: it was pop, it was hot a c um, it

1044
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 1: was a mixture um. And of course our French network,

1045
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 1: which we've worked with for a very long time, Skyrock,

1046
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: is a hip hop network. So so it was it

1047
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: was like, I mean, I was known as a rock guy,

1048
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: but as as I mentioned earlier, I I sort of

1049
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: was a I like rock a lot, but I mean

1050
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 1: I had other musical interests, you know. Okay, So in

1051
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: radio rock radio there's a couple of very specific schisms.

1052
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 1: One you mentioned was Nirvana, but really an earlier one

1053
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 1: will put it eighty one, between eighty and eighty two,

1054
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: we had this free format station in Pasadena, the last

1055
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 1: free format station in l A. Suddenly Rick Carroll gets involved.

1056
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 1: It's now the rock of the eighties. It's top forty

1057
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: of what was then considered alternative and breaks, soft sell

1058
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 1: Tainted Love and Humanly, Don't You Want Me? And the

1059
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 1: other rock station certainly came et, didn't go on those

1060
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: new songs, immediately came et, ultimately flipped format. What was

1061
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 1: it like being in the trenches when all of a

1062
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 1: sudden this sound came along. Rick was a very talented guy,

1063
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: Rick Carroll, and he kind of ignored what was going

1064
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:51,839
Speaker 1: on there and recognized that there was a new sound

1065
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 1: that he could capitalize that wasn't the heavy rock sound.

1066
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 1: That there was this sort of pop alternative I guess

1067
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 1: for a lack of a better term, I hate genre titles,

1068
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 1: but anyway, um, but he ended up finding that, you know,

1069
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 1: sort of rock stations wouldn't play the Cure and Depeche Mode.

1070
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 1: He did, and they had huge audience and he put them.

1071
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 1: What was interesting is he would put songs in a

1072
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:29,879
Speaker 1: very quick rotation, but because the music was so different,

1073
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 1: it was really fresh and and it was one of

1074
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 1: the sort of extraordinary stories of the eighties. Was that

1075
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 1: really um it sounded more like a radio station you'd

1076
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: hear in England, frankly or in Australia. It had that

1077
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, that sensibility fun jocks. I mean, it was

1078
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: really a good experience and he was super smart. Okay,

1079
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 1: But as I say, traditional A O. R. Did not

1080
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 1: go on all those songs, and most of those stations

1081
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 1: ultimately flipped the classic rock you know, they played the

1082
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 1: older they were behind there a new market, new station

1083
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 1: in the market. What was it like being a consultant

1084
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 1: when all of a sudden this wedge comes in and

1085
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: there hasn't been anything like it for years. Well, we

1086
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:22,640
Speaker 1: played some of those songs on some of the alternative stations,

1087
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,799
Speaker 1: like we played Human League, and you know you can't.

1088
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: It's like country radio deciding not to play little NASAs.

1089
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean, what are they like idiots. It's it's a hits,

1090
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 1: It's a gigantic hit and and you can't arbitrarily make

1091
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 1: judgments like that or you'll go down. You'll go down fast.

1092
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: It's like the Grammys deciding Casey Musgraves or Brandy Carlisle

1093
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 1: can't be in a particular category. I mean, like who

1094
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 1: is living in a seven and these there, man. I mean,

1095
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,720
Speaker 1: that is like ridiculous. And if you talk to any

1096
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: kids and the reason why the kids won't relate to

1097
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 1: the Grammys, they don't even understand it when you talk

1098
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 1: about genres, don't even know what you're talking about. They listen,

1099
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: they like it. They either like it or they don't

1100
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: like it. They like Bowie and they like Jake Cole

1101
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:22,040
Speaker 1: and they don't they're not They don't say oh my,

1102
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 1: my son doesn't say, oh Dad, I'm gonna listen to

1103
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 1: a rock song. Now, they go, I like that song,

1104
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,919
Speaker 1: I don't like it. It's fine, it's cool, it's interesting,

1105
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:36,839
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's that kind of mentality

1106
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: that you're referring to. Bob did exist, and it led

1107
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 1: to certain stations becoming completely irrelevant because, you know, if

1108
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 1: you're just playing to the super super core without trying

1109
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 1: to expand your audience or at least give them something fresh.

1110
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,599
Speaker 1: I mean, don't you want me what a great single

1111
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 1: that is. It may not be high art, but it

1112
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:08,679
Speaker 1: sure is great to listen to, you know, it's sure,

1113
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,679
Speaker 1: and a lot of the Cure songs and everything else,

1114
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:18,799
Speaker 1: so you know, rock rock did have an internal debate

1115
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 1: about what is rock, which is hard to believe looking

1116
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 1: back now, right it's like, what were you guys thinking?

1117
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 1: What do you like? I remember when they're saying, well

1118
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 1: as Coldplay rock or is it is like is a

1119
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,800
Speaker 1: song good or not? Is? Do you like it? Does

1120
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 1: it fit what you're doing? You know? So okay, let's

1121
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 1: jump to MTV tell us again. They called you because

1122
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,799
Speaker 1: you had footprint in Europe. Tell us about your history

1123
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:54,919
Speaker 1: with MTV. Well, I got a call from Tom Preston,

1124
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 1: who I remained close with today, one of the all

1125
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 1: time great guys, and he produced me to Bill Rhadi,

1126
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:05,719
Speaker 1: who was um running an MTV Europe it just started,

1127
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: and I knew a lot about Europe and um um

1128
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 1: and they thought I could help them with what was

1129
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 1: programming music pretty much that was full time music. You know,

1130
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: you would be uh, you know they had and at

1131
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 1: that time it was a pan European channel, which of

1132
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 1: course couldn't last forever as long as you didn't have

1133
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: a you know, a German competitor or a French competitor.

1134
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,000
Speaker 1: But as soon as you did, you were in trouble,

1135
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: you know. But I work with them then I started

1136
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 1: working with the US channels and cmt VH one. So

1137
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 1: what are you doing for these companies? It would depend

1138
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 1: on what era we're talking about it. If it's the

1139
01:13:53,040 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 1: music era, I'm helping them figure out, you know, what

1140
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:04,599
Speaker 1: the music balance should be. And again I think about

1141
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: the trip I went to MTV Russia and they were

1142
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 1: having trouble with their ratings and I look at the channel.

1143
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:14,560
Speaker 1: It looks like a British channel. I go, where the

1144
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:19,719
Speaker 1: Russian acts? Oh, well, you know, we want to play

1145
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:22,280
Speaker 1: some of the international hits. I go, You're not gonna

1146
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 1: get anybody to watch this if you don't support your

1147
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 1: own acts. Now, it didn't take a genius Bob to

1148
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 1: figure that out. But for me, you was the most

1149
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: obvious thing because I said, you know, you have a

1150
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: huge music scene here. You've got to support these acts,

1151
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,920
Speaker 1: you know, um, and then play the international ones. That

1152
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 1: makes sense. So a lot of the initial stuff was

1153
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: common sense. Uh. And I was able to work with

1154
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: a lot of great talented programmers that I'm still friends

1155
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:53,920
Speaker 1: with today, you know, and they're doing other things, most

1156
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: of them, but um. So that was the first phase,

1157
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 1: and then as it got competitive, when we had to

1158
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:05,799
Speaker 1: switch from a Pan European channel to the local channels,

1159
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: and then suddenly we launched local channels. So suddenly we're

1160
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: up against Viva in Germany and you know and the

1161
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:17,639
Speaker 1: local you know, the local music channels in each one.

1162
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 1: So then it's you know, how do we use the

1163
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 1: MTV programming that the international audience is interested in and

1164
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: be local enough that people care about you. So that

1165
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:33,800
Speaker 1: was you know, that was a big balancing act for

1166
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,720
Speaker 1: for a lot of years after that. And what about

1167
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:40,200
Speaker 1: when you worked in the US, Well, we were obviously

1168
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 1: UM music and then we launched the what was what

1169
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: came to be known as MTV two. So I was

1170
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: involved with that UM and then it would be music events, UM.

1171
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 1: You know, I always UM was interest did in new

1172
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 1: technology UM, and so I learned more and more about

1173
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 1: what digital platforms might provide. So that was something that

1174
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 1: that I spent some time on as well. And that

1175
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:19,679
Speaker 1: was in the more in the double ohs than the nineties.

1176
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 1: The nineties was really the transition to UM, you know

1177
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 1: two programming at MTV that was there to get ratings,

1178
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't you know, Okay, So the uh,

1179
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:39,400
Speaker 1: the centuries change, and this is one of the few

1180
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 1: cases with MTV where the audience is behind the station.

1181
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 1: Now they're going on to the MTV Video Music Awards

1182
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 1: saying play more videos, etcetera. Tom Preston said to me,

1183
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:54,519
Speaker 1: you know, we're never gonna play videos. That's an on

1184
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:58,840
Speaker 1: demand item online. Then of course, you know, he gets

1185
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: kicked up, then he gets fired. That's it in your estimation.

1186
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 1: Was there any way to save those channels. It's really

1187
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:18,519
Speaker 1: hard to remain relevant to your target audience and grow.

1188
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 1: But MTV did it for a really long time. The

1189
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 1: fact that they could actually and whether it was with

1190
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 1: you know, Jersey Shore or whatever programming that they did,

1191
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: they managed to do you know, sixteen and Pregnant. They

1192
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 1: managed to do it through shows and they were able

1193
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 1: as long as Tom was there and Judy and Van,

1194
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:47,920
Speaker 1: as long as the central core of the people and

1195
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 1: the people they attracted. They really didn't care about yes,

1196
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:57,760
Speaker 1: the heritage of music, but but but about creating new things.

1197
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:00,760
Speaker 1: That it was a culture of creativity. That's why so

1198
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:04,799
Speaker 1: many people who are alumni have gone onto these amazing jobs.

1199
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:09,639
Speaker 1: But once that team was gone, once Tom was gone

1200
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:13,400
Speaker 1: and then Judy and then Van, you know, um, it

1201
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 1: was very very difficult to attract the kind of talent

1202
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 1: that would keep uh MTV at the top of their game.

1203
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:28,799
Speaker 1: So they you know, it's really really difficult to suddenly say, oh,

1204
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:32,880
Speaker 1: here we are again, were relevant, You should care about us.

1205
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 1: And I would never count them out because you know,

1206
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 1: they're just several great ideas away from recapturing the zeitgeist.

1207
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:49,320
Speaker 1: But you can't. You know, my kids didn't grow up

1208
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:52,640
Speaker 1: watching MTV. You know, that wasn't what they did. You know,

1209
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:58,560
Speaker 1: it was something you know, and they're on TikTok on Instagram,

1210
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,719
Speaker 1: And I think that there was a period of time

1211
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 1: when really good people were leaving the company and the

1212
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:13,200
Speaker 1: investment wasn't happening, and really critical time when things were

1213
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 1: shifting in a huge way and MTV, you know, didn't

1214
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 1: shift with it. So now now now it's a question

1215
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:25,280
Speaker 1: of rebooting and they have new people and they're going

1216
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 1: to have to see if they can come back with

1217
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 1: a whole new offering. You know. So how did you

1218
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 1: end up working for Spotify? And what year was that?

1219
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:40,280
Speaker 1: Um that was again me being interested in you know,

1220
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 1: I was on I'm probably like you were probably two

1221
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:47,120
Speaker 1: of the Americans who are on the early demo from

1222
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:52,240
Speaker 1: Europe and thinking, oh my god, this is incredible. UM,

1223
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 1: and I met Daniel through some people, and UM, there

1224
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 1: was a period of time where they weren't very artist friendly.

1225
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 1: Let's say that they really, especially when Jimmy took him

1226
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,680
Speaker 1: to task. I mean, Jimmy was Mr. Artist friendly. So

1227
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:11,639
Speaker 1: originally they brought me up, you know, brought me into

1228
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:16,639
Speaker 1: sort of help on the artist relationship side of things

1229
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:19,920
Speaker 1: on how because you know, look, they're tech guys, so

1230
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 1: they that wasn't really in their d n A and

1231
01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:26,760
Speaker 1: that was something I could help them with. Okay, So

1232
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:30,160
Speaker 1: at this point in time, let's leave Deezer as a

1233
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 1: secondary outfit. It's really nothing much in the US, especially

1234
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:37,760
Speaker 1: now that are alternatives for high risk. There are three

1235
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: major players, Apple, Spotify, Amazon. Obviously the record industry wants

1236
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:47,679
Speaker 1: them all to be doing well because they can play

1237
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:50,280
Speaker 1: them off each other. How does this all play out?

1238
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:56,760
Speaker 1: I think that five years from now, UH all three

1239
01:20:56,840 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 1: will be with us and successful because they're all doing

1240
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 1: it differently. Amazon's using their giant, giant footprint to allow

1241
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:17,600
Speaker 1: you to access their music UH at a less expensive opportunity,

1242
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:24,560
Speaker 1: and obviously, you know, using Alexa to help drive that, Um,

1243
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 1: Apple's doing a solid job. Look, Spotify as the leader,

1244
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:31,599
Speaker 1: and once you're the leader, and you don't screw up

1245
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 1: if you continue to do what they do. I think

1246
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 1: to Daniel's credit, he was always focused on the service

1247
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:48,680
Speaker 1: and on the U I right, and he wanted it

1248
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 1: to be easy to use and didn't get distracted. He

1249
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 1: didn't start saying, Okay, let me invest a lot of

1250
01:21:57,040 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 1: money in exclusives. I mean, that was one of the

1251
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: things when I was there, is don't your right. Don't

1252
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 1: do exclusives. They don't matter. People don't know. They just

1253
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:10,400
Speaker 1: don't know, you know. I remember from my radio days.

1254
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: I could be playing a song that was out for

1255
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:14,000
Speaker 1: six months and people call up it goes, hey, man,

1256
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:17,320
Speaker 1: I love that new song from you know, fill in

1257
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:19,720
Speaker 1: the blank. You know, they don't know when it comes out.

1258
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:22,720
Speaker 1: We in the industry now, but they didn't know. So

1259
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 1: I think, uh that we'll see all three of them

1260
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 1: do more bundling. Whether somebody decides to buy Spotify, I

1261
01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 1: suppose that's possible. Um, but I think that they're going

1262
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:47,280
Speaker 1: to have to continue to shift. I mean, look, the

1263
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:52,000
Speaker 1: move to podcasting has been a very important move by

1264
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 1: them to capture advertising revenue because of the fact that

1265
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,280
Speaker 1: there seems to be somewhat of a heeling on how

1266
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 1: much they can make from subscriptions. Um, and they want

1267
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 1: the price to go down, and the artists want the

1268
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:17,200
Speaker 1: price to go up right for per stream you know, um,

1269
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's um, it's going to

1270
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:24,920
Speaker 1: be a tumultuous next several years in terms of that

1271
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:30,080
Speaker 1: that particular struggle. Okay, let's jump to the end. What's

1272
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 1: the status of radio today? Here's your issue with radio.

1273
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 1: First of all, there are a lot of really good

1274
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:42,439
Speaker 1: people trying to do their best and are doing their best.

1275
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:46,720
Speaker 1: This is the role of radio today. I think you

1276
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:55,960
Speaker 1: have Look, I just read a new survey from a

1277
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: couple of days ago which you might have seen, about

1278
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:04,800
Speaker 1: music discovery and where adults are finding new music, and

1279
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:12,080
Speaker 1: it was a huge lead for Spotify and streaming services

1280
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:17,720
Speaker 1: over radio. And I think that, I mean, look, we

1281
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:21,639
Speaker 1: got all debate what music discovery really is. Is Phoebe

1282
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:24,840
Speaker 1: Bridgers music discovery the first time you hear her, even

1283
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:28,400
Speaker 1: though she's been out for a year. I think that

1284
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:38,680
Speaker 1: though radios function in the ecosystem is to slam the

1285
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 1: accelerator down on a record that's already been getting some heat.

1286
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:53,679
Speaker 1: It is the It is taking a song and making

1287
01:24:53,760 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 1: it omni present. That's a different role than in going

1288
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:05,599
Speaker 1: there first to hear new songs. Now you might say

1289
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 1: a really good Top forty and Top forty is back

1290
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:15,640
Speaker 1: stronger than ever. Um, you will hear songs for the

1291
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:19,599
Speaker 1: first time. The thing that radio still does well is curate,

1292
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 1: and that's the thing they should focus in on going forward.

1293
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 1: They curate. They end up taking a song that has

1294
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:30,320
Speaker 1: created some heat, whether it's on TikTok or Instagram or

1295
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 1: just is viral, and if they jump on it, they

1296
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 1: can you know, set a fire to it. They can

1297
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 1: be arsonists with with a song. But there are so

1298
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 1: many other places to hear songs. First. I don't even

1299
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:48,680
Speaker 1: think they should worry about that. Okay, how about you know,

1300
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:51,679
Speaker 1: I hear from radio all the time they say things

1301
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:54,000
Speaker 1: are better than ever. I talked to people under the

1302
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:59,040
Speaker 1: age of twenty. They never listen to commercial radio, never ever. Okay,

1303
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:01,479
Speaker 1: then listen to this series. Yes, that's a different thing.

1304
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:06,040
Speaker 1: Never ever. So what's gonna happen here. What's going to

1305
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 1: happen is that, first of all, there's a large amount

1306
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:14,400
Speaker 1: of people who listen to the radio every week. Those

1307
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:19,040
Speaker 1: numbers are true. How long may listen is the issue,

1308
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:24,880
Speaker 1: because the issue is whether they will be there. The

1309
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:29,640
Speaker 1: young are not listening to radio like they used to.

1310
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:33,720
Speaker 1: It just they just aren't. And when the easier it

1311
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:38,520
Speaker 1: becomes to listen in the car to your own playlist,

1312
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 1: is what you're gonna do. And the fact that some

1313
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:48,640
Speaker 1: automobiles no longer have an AM radio, I mean, that's unbelievable.

1314
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 1: And I I want to listen to the Dodger game

1315
01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:54,599
Speaker 1: and I gotta listen to it on you know, an

1316
01:26:54,720 --> 01:27:02,800
Speaker 1: HD two channel. You know. So, but there there, they

1317
01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:07,360
Speaker 1: have a significant role. They continue to have a significant role. People.

1318
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 1: They're not sexy, so people tend to throw them over.

1319
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:15,760
Speaker 1: But um, if they understand the role. It's still a

1320
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,760
Speaker 1: good business. If you didn't overpay for a station, and

1321
01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:21,559
Speaker 1: you do a good job in your community, you know.

1322
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:25,720
Speaker 1: I I'm a firm believer that you know, you make

1323
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:28,879
Speaker 1: a good living with it and you you can be

1324
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, and it's all about being part of the city. Um.

1325
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:37,760
Speaker 1: But it is a different role than it used to be.

1326
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 1: And and attracting younger the younger audience is a significant

1327
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:46,639
Speaker 1: issue for them, and they will just have to continue

1328
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 1: doing And look at they're doing all the things they

1329
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 1: possibly can. I heart with their streaming and you know,

1330
01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:57,360
Speaker 1: um what Odyssey is doing, and Um and Cumulus, So

1331
01:27:57,479 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 1: I think, um, and these are these these are smart

1332
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:02,839
Speaker 1: people just trying to figure out how they can continue

1333
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:06,120
Speaker 1: to evolve and attract a younger audience. But they have

1334
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:11,799
Speaker 1: so many competitors that it's very difficult to see where

1335
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 1: this ends up for the under thirty crowd, you know,

1336
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 1: in the next five years. Okay, is rock dead? It's

1337
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:28,800
Speaker 1: on life support? Is it dead? I mean, when's the

1338
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:31,840
Speaker 1: last time you heard a great rock album? You know,

1339
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 1: when is the last time that that any of us

1340
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:40,320
Speaker 1: got excited that something entered the culture that actually, uh,

1341
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:45,519
Speaker 1: it is a very you know, the electric guitar has

1342
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 1: gravitated the country music. Um, there's hardly any rock bands around.

1343
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:56,000
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be considered rock, you know. I mean,

1344
01:28:56,080 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 1: if Coldplay is making records with bts, you gotta start

1345
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 1: saying yourself, Okay, that tells me more about the status

1346
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:09,400
Speaker 1: of rock than about anything else. You know. So, um,

1347
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 1: it's a very challenging time. And you know, and how

1348
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 1: many rock acts are really attracting a large live audience

1349
01:29:24,479 --> 01:29:30,679
Speaker 1: that aren't over fifty None. Yeah, none, except for maybe

1350
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:34,840
Speaker 1: twenty one pilots. I mean there's very few bands that can.

1351
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:40,960
Speaker 1: So there's there are exceptions. But when was the last

1352
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 1: time there was a great rock album? Are we going

1353
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:49,639
Speaker 1: back to okay computer? Are we going back to all

1354
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 1: that you can't leave behind? Are you going back to

1355
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:58,920
Speaker 1: you know um Bruce's album? Uh from uh the you

1356
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:05,479
Speaker 1: know the Rising Um It's it's bleak out there. If

1357
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:09,280
Speaker 1: you want to be in a rock band. Uh. And

1358
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:12,960
Speaker 1: I'm insistative to this because my son plays rock music.

1359
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:17,960
Speaker 1: Keep mentioning your children, how old are your children? And

1360
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 1: which is your son? The twenty year old? So he

1361
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:26,840
Speaker 1: plays in a rock band? Yeah, And I don't know

1362
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 1: what to tell him about. Let's go the other way.

1363
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,599
Speaker 1: There is a business, just like there was a music

1364
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:43,280
Speaker 1: business before the Beatles. But for those of us who

1365
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 1: lived through the Beatles the seventies until it imploded at

1366
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:51,439
Speaker 1: the end of the seventies then resuscitated by MTV, we

1367
01:30:52,439 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 1: saw music and the music represented something different than it

1368
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:00,960
Speaker 1: does today. Now. People still were working in the business

1369
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 1: and they're stripping away people of our vintage constantly say oh,

1370
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:08,600
Speaker 1: it's the same as it ever was. It's not, but

1371
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:11,519
Speaker 1: I want your take on it. If we're looking at

1372
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 1: the music out there, you know. And the other thing

1373
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:17,960
Speaker 1: about it is, yes, music is available everywhere on TikTok.

1374
01:31:18,040 --> 01:31:21,800
Speaker 1: It is about using the music for your own personal expression.

1375
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:29,200
Speaker 1: What is going on with the music? Okay, most of

1376
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:45,280
Speaker 1: the excitement and innovation and danger and unexpected uh emotion

1377
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 1: and music that resonates in the culture is coming in

1378
01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:55,559
Speaker 1: hip hop. Rock lost that rock used to be. That

1379
01:31:55,960 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 1: rock had those attributes, and I think that it's a

1380
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:04,320
Speaker 1: huge part of why. When you're not part of the

1381
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:08,719
Speaker 1: culture and you're just making songs and you're not singing

1382
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:13,040
Speaker 1: about anything that's particularly important, it gravitates and it moves

1383
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:16,200
Speaker 1: and it evolves, and if you connect the dots, you

1384
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:21,799
Speaker 1: suddenly see that Nipsey Hustle and j Cole and Kanye

1385
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 1: West are the rock stars of today and they're in

1386
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 1: and it's they're exciting and they're doing things differently and

1387
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:34,559
Speaker 1: they're challenging you and um and for rock to make

1388
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:38,840
Speaker 1: a comeback, it's going to have to understand that. You know,

1389
01:32:40,920 --> 01:32:45,519
Speaker 1: it's not just about the songs. Well, you know, Josh

1390
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 1: how to say day and now is a very minor thing.

1391
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 1: Is rock itself just played out? Well? Rock is? It

1392
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:59,400
Speaker 1: feels like it's sort of a niche format. Now. If

1393
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:02,479
Speaker 1: you said that me ten years ago, I would I

1394
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:05,800
Speaker 1: would have believed you. But if you look at the

1395
01:33:06,439 --> 01:33:13,600
Speaker 1: history of the last thirty years, the last twenty five years, uh,

1396
01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:18,360
Speaker 1: that's what's happening. And is rock played out? We know

1397
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:26,479
Speaker 1: for certain that it is in a very weak place

1398
01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:32,880
Speaker 1: creatively and in terms of relevance. It used to be

1399
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:38,519
Speaker 1: when an album came out, it was everywhere. You heard

1400
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:42,000
Speaker 1: it everywhere. It was like songs in the Key of Life,

1401
01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 1: which was everywhere, or it was you know, it was okay,

1402
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 1: computer you heard everywhere? Or everything is but there aren't

1403
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:56,480
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be part of a conversation

1404
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 1: that's bigger than what rock is doing. Now it seems

1405
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:08,440
Speaker 1: like it's a conversation between two people, not the world. Okay,

1406
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:10,959
Speaker 1: and do you think you know we have the Spotify

1407
01:34:11,080 --> 01:34:14,559
Speaker 1: Top fifty. But in terms of overall reach, the example

1408
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:16,960
Speaker 1: I always use is listening to Top forty radio in

1409
01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 1: the sixties. I knew every lick of Hello Dolly and

1410
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 1: Strangers in the night because I had to wait to

1411
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:28,040
Speaker 1: hear the Beatles songs. They want to miss anything British invasion,

1412
01:34:28,439 --> 01:34:32,040
Speaker 1: whereas today you can talk to an incredible number of

1413
01:34:32,040 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: people they haven't they've never heard the number one song,

1414
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:40,439
Speaker 1: not only oldsters. So this nitrification, is it just going

1415
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:43,760
Speaker 1: to continue to go this way or is there will

1416
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:48,760
Speaker 1: there ultimately be hits that everybody gravitates to. Well, you've

1417
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 1: pinpointed the issue about awards shows, haven't you, Because ultimately

1418
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 1: what's a hit to somebody? They don't really care about

1419
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:03,680
Speaker 1: the awards and they certainly don't care about these categories

1420
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:07,439
Speaker 1: and genres that are being attached on the confuses people

1421
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:11,720
Speaker 1: they've stopped watching the award shows because they can just

1422
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:15,160
Speaker 1: watch the highlights that they want to watch for the

1423
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:19,479
Speaker 1: artists they already like on YouTube, right they there no

1424
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:21,240
Speaker 1: one's gonna sit through a three hour show when you

1425
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:24,639
Speaker 1: can watch, you know, your favorite act for a minute

1426
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:32,479
Speaker 1: or two. And so there really isn't a central place,

1427
01:35:32,800 --> 01:35:38,000
Speaker 1: and that's why there is still a role for terrestrial

1428
01:35:38,120 --> 01:35:43,280
Speaker 1: radio to play in their various cities by looking to

1429
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:50,720
Speaker 1: be the central place that defines what are hits or

1430
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:56,200
Speaker 1: what is getting played so that people know them, um,

1431
01:35:56,280 --> 01:36:03,160
Speaker 1: because everywhere or you go, everybody has their their own

1432
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:07,480
Speaker 1: list of what's a hit. Okay, every week on Thursday,

1433
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 1: you send out an email with five tracks. Check out

1434
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:12,760
Speaker 1: how do you find those five tracks? There? They can

1435
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:19,519
Speaker 1: frequently be in diverse genres. That is for myself. I've

1436
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:24,200
Speaker 1: all my life, I've pick songs, you know, either for

1437
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:29,519
Speaker 1: music channels or radio or everything else. So I get

1438
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:32,200
Speaker 1: to do this now. I get to pick five songs.

1439
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:35,400
Speaker 1: I don't worry about whether some of them aren't popular

1440
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:38,120
Speaker 1: at all and never get popular. I don't care. So

1441
01:36:38,160 --> 01:36:41,800
Speaker 1: I so I go through all the Spotify new releases

1442
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 1: and get it down to about fifteen and then pick five.

1443
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:48,760
Speaker 1: And they can be in country, they can be a pop,

1444
01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 1: they can be in hip hop and not making a

1445
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:56,280
Speaker 1: big statement, they're just making Hey, these are the five

1446
01:36:56,320 --> 01:37:00,800
Speaker 1: songs I like this week. You know I'm not picking

1447
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:04,920
Speaker 1: up two further appearance on the Grammys, I don't care.

1448
01:37:06,520 --> 01:37:09,160
Speaker 1: Tell us about the creation of the Laurel Canyon movie

1449
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:14,880
Speaker 1: documentary that was on ultimately dreamed on Cable. Well, we

1450
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:22,720
Speaker 1: started working on that project um some years ago UM

1451
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:29,320
Speaker 1: and it was a really great experience because we originally

1452
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:33,559
Speaker 1: had been asked to do a film by Epics. Epics

1453
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:36,040
Speaker 1: really was interested in it, and there of course had

1454
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:40,360
Speaker 1: been another Lawer Canyon Dock, which um had come out

1455
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:43,680
Speaker 1: while we were working on our. Okay, so yours was

1456
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:48,280
Speaker 1: very different. There's was more exhaustive. To what degree do

1457
01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:52,400
Speaker 1: you think reception was hindered by theirs coming first? I

1458
01:37:52,439 --> 01:37:55,719
Speaker 1: don't think so much now at all, because I think

1459
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 1: I think initially there was some confusion, but because of

1460
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:05,040
Speaker 1: the how well, you know, our Laurel Canyon doc didn't

1461
01:38:05,040 --> 01:38:09,000
Speaker 1: we got nominated for some awards and things, and I

1462
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 1: think that we you know, we also heard from a

1463
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:19,559
Speaker 1: lot of the artists who were featured on it that

1464
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:25,000
Speaker 1: really appreciated how they were depicted. So, you know, we

1465
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:27,200
Speaker 1: just wanted to do a really good doc and originally

1466
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:31,800
Speaker 1: was supposed to be one part, and then they said, oh,

1467
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 1: let's do two parts because it's a lot to cover,

1468
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:36,640
Speaker 1: and then we had we we sent in it was

1469
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:38,920
Speaker 1: supposed to be fifty five minutes. We sent in an

1470
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,400
Speaker 1: hour and twenty cut and we got this note back

1471
01:38:41,479 --> 01:38:44,000
Speaker 1: that you will never get another note back in the

1472
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:46,599
Speaker 1: history of doing music docs, and that will never happen again.

1473
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:49,719
Speaker 1: I can tell you this. The note back was don't

1474
01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:55,880
Speaker 1: cut anything. It was like what So they were an

1475
01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:58,840
Speaker 1: amazing partner you. I mean you get to put little

1476
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:03,599
Speaker 1: feet and of a documentary. Who you know who does that?

1477
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:06,559
Speaker 1: And so that's why we're able to make it so that,

1478
01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 1: you know, I just got so many notes from artists

1479
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:12,640
Speaker 1: saying thank you for just saying the way it was.

1480
01:39:12,800 --> 01:39:15,640
Speaker 1: This actually happened this way. And we're lucky enough to

1481
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:21,920
Speaker 1: to license over a hundred songs from that era, Bob.

1482
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:25,720
Speaker 1: And you can imagine the songs like California Dream and

1483
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:28,240
Speaker 1: Sweet Judy Blue Eyes, on and on and on. You're saying,

1484
01:39:28,280 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, but you know it was I mean,

1485
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:36,360
Speaker 1: I grew was your what was your pitch? Because normally

1486
01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:39,479
Speaker 1: you would have just blown your budget, um times a

1487
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,559
Speaker 1: number just on the songs. Well, we couldn't. They have

1488
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:47,360
Speaker 1: what's called most Favorite Nations, as you know, and we

1489
01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:51,960
Speaker 1: just said this is what we can pay we we

1490
01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:56,439
Speaker 1: we can't. You can't include all that music and then

1491
01:39:56,479 --> 01:40:02,160
Speaker 1: make exceptions. You can't do it. So fortunately, um and

1492
01:40:02,240 --> 01:40:04,439
Speaker 1: this is where the relationships come in, Bob. A sort

1493
01:40:04,439 --> 01:40:07,519
Speaker 1: of people said, look, we like what you've done before.

1494
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:11,560
Speaker 1: We trust that this will be good. We like Allison Elwood,

1495
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:15,360
Speaker 1: you know, we like your eagle Stock, we like you,

1496
01:40:15,439 --> 01:40:21,880
Speaker 1: we like the people involved. Um And fortunately people really

1497
01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:26,240
Speaker 1: came back to us and said, okay, you sustained our

1498
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:31,200
Speaker 1: belief in in this. And for me being a Californian

1499
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:34,240
Speaker 1: and growing up that was my music. You know. Look,

1500
01:40:34,400 --> 01:40:39,519
Speaker 1: it's we also wanted to make expand the audience. I mean,

1501
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:43,599
Speaker 1: to me, a big part of doing these projects is

1502
01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:50,599
Speaker 1: can I somehow create new fans. I don't want to

1503
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:54,160
Speaker 1: just preach to the choir. I saw the new Todd

1504
01:40:54,200 --> 01:40:57,519
Speaker 1: Haynes movie a lot of heat on that, okay, um

1505
01:40:58,720 --> 01:41:05,680
Speaker 1: round Velot Underground it and watched it. I just you know,

1506
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 1: for me, it was for the super fan, you know.

1507
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:11,600
Speaker 1: And if you're a super fan, you'll love it. But

1508
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:15,320
Speaker 1: if you're if you are hoping to make a large

1509
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 1: your audience for the Velvet Underground, it didn't do it

1510
01:41:18,720 --> 01:41:22,840
Speaker 1: because it's very, very down a rabbit hole. And and

1511
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:26,479
Speaker 1: for me, I hope with it. Whether it's Jim Morrison

1512
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:28,640
Speaker 1: or the monkey Stock we're going to do, or some

1513
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:32,759
Speaker 1: of the other things, you know, whether it's cash or

1514
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:37,519
Speaker 1: whatever we do, we would like to say we want

1515
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 1: to give people a chance to come in and experience

1516
01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:47,519
Speaker 1: these artists and see why they were so special. That's

1517
01:41:47,560 --> 01:41:50,280
Speaker 1: really a goal of mine with these things that I'm doing,

1518
01:41:50,400 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 1: is can I somehow open the door to new people

1519
01:41:56,680 --> 01:41:58,800
Speaker 1: that aren't just super fan Because if you're preaching to

1520
01:41:58,840 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 1: the converter, then you're not really making much more than

1521
01:42:03,840 --> 01:42:06,080
Speaker 1: the other ones that might have come before you, if

1522
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:09,040
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So you say you have

1523
01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:11,639
Speaker 1: a specific way you want to do the Doors rescued

1524
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:14,479
Speaker 1: from the Oliver Stone portrayal, how do you plan to

1525
01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:18,160
Speaker 1: do it? We're gonna bust all those myths. I can

1526
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:21,000
Speaker 1: tell you that so much stuff that was in that

1527
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:27,360
Speaker 1: movie didn't happen, and it was There are so many

1528
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:32,679
Speaker 1: things that uh Jim was like, but when you talked

1529
01:42:32,680 --> 01:42:38,120
Speaker 1: to the living members of the Doors, or you're talking

1530
01:42:38,160 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 1: to Bill Siddons or everything else, they don't I didn't

1531
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:42,320
Speaker 1: even recognize that guy that was in that movie. That

1532
01:42:42,479 --> 01:42:48,760
Speaker 1: was Oliver's movie. What about the guy who said, come

1533
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:52,719
Speaker 1: into my room and it's filled with books, Pull down

1534
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:55,920
Speaker 1: one book, read a passage to me, and I'll tell

1535
01:42:55,920 --> 01:42:59,840
Speaker 1: you what book that is. Where's that guy? He wasn't

1536
01:42:59,840 --> 01:43:04,920
Speaker 1: an movie? Where about the guy who was so loyal

1537
01:43:05,080 --> 01:43:07,960
Speaker 1: to the band, believe it or not. Robbie Krieger, at

1538
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:10,040
Speaker 1: his brand new book which is coming out this month,

1539
01:43:11,560 --> 01:43:17,400
Speaker 1: said that Jim had no ego. Now think about that,

1540
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:23,840
Speaker 1: think about the Lizard King. But he never wanted to

1541
01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:27,479
Speaker 1: be Jim Morrison and the Doors. He hated that he

1542
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:31,599
Speaker 1: was always the Doors. It was his idea to divide

1543
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 1: the royalties between the band. You know, he was He

1544
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:39,040
Speaker 1: never had any money. He didn't even own a house.

1545
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:43,800
Speaker 1: You know, this guy was really he was like a

1546
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:49,960
Speaker 1: classic artist. And his poetry is you know, I've seen

1547
01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:53,400
Speaker 1: a lot of his poetry books are are beautiful. This

1548
01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:58,120
Speaker 1: is a guy who did it. Was he a drunk, Yes,

1549
01:43:59,800 --> 01:44:03,080
Speaker 1: he was a drunk, but like a lot of drunks,

1550
01:44:04,120 --> 01:44:10,040
Speaker 1: he also was, you know, an amazingly interesting person. And

1551
01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:12,679
Speaker 1: if you listen to his interviews, you hear a guy

1552
01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:15,760
Speaker 1: searching for the right word. I've had to look up

1553
01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 1: some of his words because of his vocabulary. This was

1554
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:23,760
Speaker 1: a very very smart, intelligent man. And so if you

1555
01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:27,439
Speaker 1: said to me, what would you like to accomplish that

1556
01:44:27,479 --> 01:44:31,160
Speaker 1: hasn't be said, is I would like to give a

1557
01:44:31,240 --> 01:44:34,840
Speaker 1: reappraisal of the lead singer of the Doors as to

1558
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:39,720
Speaker 1: both sides of what he was like, not the guy

1559
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:43,639
Speaker 1: who got drunk and fell off the stage and oh,

1560
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:47,080
Speaker 1: by the way, did not light a closet on fire

1561
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:51,400
Speaker 1: with his girlfriend, and because that didn't happen. I mean,

1562
01:44:51,400 --> 01:44:55,160
Speaker 1: if you read Robbie's book, he goes down, he lists

1563
01:44:55,160 --> 01:45:00,519
Speaker 1: all the things that never happened. You know, listen, following

1564
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:06,559
Speaker 1: things did not happen. So and you know, unfortunately that

1565
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:10,920
Speaker 1: film is left an impression that the alver Stone film

1566
01:45:11,040 --> 01:45:14,120
Speaker 1: of what he was like and what the Doors are like. Now,

1567
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:16,479
Speaker 1: some positive things came out of it for the Doors

1568
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:19,120
Speaker 1: because it reignited some interest in them. But if you

1569
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:25,439
Speaker 1: remember the family, it's not a guy you recognize. And

1570
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:28,879
Speaker 1: what can you add to the monkeys, Well, the monkeys

1571
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:37,720
Speaker 1: are um. I think what's interesting about the monkeys is

1572
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:44,639
Speaker 1: they were super fun and I think what's a what's

1573
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:49,639
Speaker 1: really interesting to consider is how close all the other

1574
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:52,559
Speaker 1: members of the Laurel Canyon scene were with the monkeys.

1575
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:57,160
Speaker 1: They were their buddies and they didn't judge them on

1576
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:01,600
Speaker 1: oh you guys are your music isn't great? Or you

1577
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,800
Speaker 1: know what? Everything? They were funny. If you see the

1578
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:07,800
Speaker 1: Peter Tork audition for the Monkeys. I don't know if

1579
01:46:07,800 --> 01:46:12,360
Speaker 1: you ever seen that, really a funny guy. And he

1580
01:46:12,439 --> 01:46:15,760
Speaker 1: actually even sat in the chair. He went over and

1581
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:19,479
Speaker 1: sat in the chair of the director, and you know,

1582
01:46:19,680 --> 01:46:22,639
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's good. So I'd like to show

1583
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:26,519
Speaker 1: them how fun they were there since the humor. You know,

1584
01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:28,680
Speaker 1: John Lennon was a big fan because he thought they

1585
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:32,960
Speaker 1: were sort of like the Marx Brothers. Now, um, you know,

1586
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:36,920
Speaker 1: but they also had some amazing songwriters right for them.

1587
01:46:37,040 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 1: So I think it's gonna be interesting to sort of visit.

1588
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:44,160
Speaker 1: I think we still have a lot to work on

1589
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:47,000
Speaker 1: from there, but they're not gonna be We're not gonna

1590
01:46:47,040 --> 01:46:49,080
Speaker 1: treat him like just this TV thing. I mean, this

1591
01:46:49,160 --> 01:46:51,759
Speaker 1: show is only on for two years. Isn't an amazing

1592
01:46:52,120 --> 01:46:55,840
Speaker 1: I know, it's mind blowing, isn't it. And then all

1593
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:58,400
Speaker 1: these people who who grew they say, I grew up

1594
01:46:58,439 --> 01:47:00,880
Speaker 1: with the Monkeys. Oh really, how old are you? I'm forty?

1595
01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:04,960
Speaker 1: Oh right. I watched it on MTV because that was

1596
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:10,120
Speaker 1: the first time that the Monkeys ended up having that

1597
01:47:10,280 --> 01:47:15,000
Speaker 1: next generation effect was people watching it, and and in

1598
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,160
Speaker 1: in the eighties when they watched it, because they never

1599
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:19,599
Speaker 1: said and if you watch him today, I have a

1600
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:21,000
Speaker 1: friend of mine who shows it to his kids and

1601
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:25,520
Speaker 1: the kids love it. So something, you know, something's pretty

1602
01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:29,040
Speaker 1: special about that. Okay, Malcolm Gladwell, and I don't agree

1603
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:31,679
Speaker 1: with a lot of his recent stuff, but ten years ago,

1604
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:36,240
Speaker 1: when Steve Jobs died, he said Steve Jobs will not

1605
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:39,920
Speaker 1: be remembered fifty or a hundred years from now. It's

1606
01:47:39,960 --> 01:47:43,800
Speaker 1: certainly looking like he is right. Who of these rock

1607
01:47:43,840 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 1: acts survive? We're alive, we know them. You know, Neil Diamond,

1608
01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:53,320
Speaker 1: he can't go on the road because he's sick. Never mind,

1609
01:47:53,320 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 1: they're dropping left and right, so we can't see these

1610
01:47:56,840 --> 01:48:01,280
Speaker 1: Elvis businesses down. Memorabiliac are because the audience is dead.

1611
01:48:02,120 --> 01:48:06,800
Speaker 1: So from our rock era, whose music survives? I mean,

1612
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:11,280
Speaker 1: I think it's an easier question perhaps when you look

1613
01:48:11,320 --> 01:48:17,280
Speaker 1: at individual songs, you know, but um I think Bowie survives.

1614
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:24,400
Speaker 1: Um I think Johnny Cash survives. Um I think the

1615
01:48:24,400 --> 01:48:28,840
Speaker 1: Eagles survive because if you look at that crazy five

1616
01:48:29,080 --> 01:48:31,360
Speaker 1: top five hundred in the Rolling Stone, you know, which

1617
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:34,160
Speaker 1: you and I talked about about, and we know why

1618
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 1: people do countdowns. I did him myself, and I was

1619
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 1: at a radio station count down to get people mad.

1620
01:48:39,520 --> 01:48:42,040
Speaker 1: So they engage. It's the whole trick. But you know,

1621
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 1: and by the way, Desperado was not on that list,

1622
01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:52,120
Speaker 1: and that song he's going to be listened to hundreds

1623
01:48:52,120 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 1: of years from now. It's one of the all time

1624
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:57,439
Speaker 1: great songs. It's like a someone to watch over me.

1625
01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:03,000
Speaker 1: That's how good it is, you know. Uh so, But

1626
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:07,760
Speaker 1: it's gonna be interesting to see which bands I think

1627
01:49:08,439 --> 01:49:11,879
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a it's a tough question. With the Beatles,

1628
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:16,280
Speaker 1: of course, uh who for me is a timeless group.

1629
01:49:16,320 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 1: That Kinks are a timeless group. Um, but will they

1630
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:24,080
Speaker 1: be in a hundred years? Hard to know whether people

1631
01:49:24,120 --> 01:49:26,120
Speaker 1: will say, are they gonna come all the way back

1632
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:29,800
Speaker 1: and listen to the music, Let's go your way? What

1633
01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:34,120
Speaker 1: are the songs that will survive. There's a number of

1634
01:49:34,160 --> 01:49:38,400
Speaker 1: Beatles songs, you know. I think that there's a number

1635
01:49:38,439 --> 01:49:47,920
Speaker 1: of Stevie Wonder songs and Paul Simon, um, Bruce um,

1636
01:49:47,960 --> 01:49:53,759
Speaker 1: you know, Marvin Gay, Uh, Billy Holiday. I can't imagine

1637
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:56,639
Speaker 1: people won't listen to Strange Fruit a hundred years from now,

1638
01:49:57,920 --> 01:50:09,840
Speaker 1: um Sinatra, um. You know. There's it's really an interesting thing.

1639
01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:13,680
Speaker 1: I remember sitting around table with a band who I'm

1640
01:50:13,680 --> 01:50:17,559
Speaker 1: friendly with and we were talking about what are hundred

1641
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:20,519
Speaker 1: year songs? And that's a great question. Then I started

1642
01:50:20,560 --> 01:50:24,280
Speaker 1: counting back there's someone to watch over me, and I

1643
01:50:24,320 --> 01:50:29,719
Speaker 1: realized that's five years old, right right? Oh my god.

1644
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 1: And it doesn't get any better than that. So, you know,

1645
01:50:34,200 --> 01:50:37,160
Speaker 1: it's that's a much more interesting thing than than to

1646
01:50:37,240 --> 01:50:41,080
Speaker 1: come up with a countdown or or a top whatever,

1647
01:50:41,560 --> 01:50:49,080
Speaker 1: because you know, there are songs that just say a

1648
01:50:49,120 --> 01:50:56,240
Speaker 1: lot about America or about the world at large. Um.

1649
01:50:56,280 --> 01:51:02,040
Speaker 1: You know that a song like Yesterday will never be forgotten,

1650
01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:10,920
Speaker 1: you know. Um. So it's a that is a very

1651
01:51:11,040 --> 01:51:15,080
Speaker 1: interesting exercise and a big one too. It's really hard

1652
01:51:15,120 --> 01:51:20,519
Speaker 1: to have the perspective of will this song last? You know,

1653
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:22,960
Speaker 1: well will it? Will it last? And it? And how

1654
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:26,360
Speaker 1: does it become a standard? How does it become something

1655
01:51:26,400 --> 01:51:31,320
Speaker 1: that becomes part of Well, you know, it's very interesting

1656
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:35,040
Speaker 1: because all the songs you mentioned are based on melody,

1657
01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:39,719
Speaker 1: whereas today's Spotify Top fifty is all based on rhythm

1658
01:51:39,720 --> 01:51:46,240
Speaker 1: and beats, and will that decrease its longevity? Well, melody

1659
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 1: will never go away, as the basic thing isn't you know?

1660
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:56,400
Speaker 1: It's the basic core. I mean, Chuck Berry is somebody

1661
01:51:56,520 --> 01:51:59,000
Speaker 1: who will always be remembered because I sort of think

1662
01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:05,280
Speaker 1: of him as are our Bach where everything follows. I

1663
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:07,120
Speaker 1: had a friend of mine say to me once, he said,

1664
01:52:07,120 --> 01:52:10,599
Speaker 1: you know, if you erased all the music that came

1665
01:52:10,720 --> 01:52:14,519
Speaker 1: after Bach and he was still there, it would still happen.

1666
01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:18,320
Speaker 1: And I think the same thing about Chuck Berry. Yeah,

1667
01:52:18,320 --> 01:52:21,840
Speaker 1: it's amazing where it all came from. It all came

1668
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:27,559
Speaker 1: from him. He started. He's ground zero. So that's what's

1669
01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:33,640
Speaker 1: what's interesting, you know. And I think of you know,

1670
01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:37,160
Speaker 1: we're we're really lucky to live in a time that

1671
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:43,839
Speaker 1: has seen so much, so much change. But the songs

1672
01:52:45,160 --> 01:52:54,040
Speaker 1: will be embraced by by generations of people that have melody.

1673
01:52:54,080 --> 01:52:59,639
Speaker 1: They're not going to just you know, will satisfaction survive maybe,

1674
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:03,320
Speaker 1: but maybe it's but that's more of a beat. It

1675
01:53:03,479 --> 01:53:06,400
Speaker 1: has to have something else, it has to be part

1676
01:53:06,479 --> 01:53:10,400
Speaker 1: of something that you know. And and it's hard to

1677
01:53:10,439 --> 01:53:15,120
Speaker 1: explain Desperado to somebody who doesn't get it because it

1678
01:53:15,200 --> 01:53:20,840
Speaker 1: says so much about America, America that's maybe no longer

1679
01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:25,400
Speaker 1: with us America, of the of as we all, as

1680
01:53:25,439 --> 01:53:31,759
Speaker 1: Americans look back to our history. Somehow that song managed

1681
01:53:31,800 --> 01:53:34,360
Speaker 1: to do it well, of course you and me both know,

1682
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:38,320
Speaker 1: never a hit single, Never a hit single. It is

1683
01:53:38,360 --> 01:53:41,519
Speaker 1: the triumph of the live show, every show, and you

1684
01:53:41,520 --> 01:53:43,599
Speaker 1: you know, it's your You can talk to people who

1685
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:46,240
Speaker 1: don't even really seem to be such music fans. They'll

1686
01:53:46,280 --> 01:53:51,719
Speaker 1: start testifying about Desperado. Yeah, well, you know, Don Don

1687
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:56,400
Speaker 1: and company wrote a song that that's for the ages.

1688
01:53:57,280 --> 01:54:02,120
Speaker 1: It's for the ages, and so it's you know, I

1689
01:54:02,600 --> 01:54:06,200
Speaker 1: think the things that remind us of our history that

1690
01:54:06,320 --> 01:54:11,040
Speaker 1: have something to say and also are very simple. You know,

1691
01:54:11,360 --> 01:54:17,479
Speaker 1: Yesterday is incredibly simple song. And and the Beatles actually

1692
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:20,040
Speaker 1: have several songs. I mean, as much as I love

1693
01:54:20,040 --> 01:54:21,880
Speaker 1: a day and of life, is it really going to

1694
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:24,599
Speaker 1: be remembered a hundred years from now? Hard to see that.

1695
01:54:25,560 --> 01:54:29,559
Speaker 1: But maybe something like here Comes the Sun is who knows?

1696
01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:33,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think any of us really know,

1697
01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:37,200
Speaker 1: and there probably aren't that many songs that maybe you

1698
01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:41,280
Speaker 1: choose one is a which is a wonderful song. I

1699
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:43,680
Speaker 1: don't think anything from You Too survives. I mean this

1700
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:46,720
Speaker 1: is a separate conversation from that same Abbey Road album

1701
01:54:46,960 --> 01:54:52,400
Speaker 1: Something Survives survives despite the great second side Come Together

1702
01:54:53,080 --> 01:54:57,200
Speaker 1: that survives, and uh, there are a lot of bands

1703
01:54:57,240 --> 01:54:59,520
Speaker 1: it out a specific sound. I mean, some of these

1704
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:01,840
Speaker 1: people who good friends of mine, but you're not going

1705
01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:05,320
Speaker 1: to be listening to their music down the road. It's

1706
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:09,000
Speaker 1: these standards. In any event, Jeff, I think we've come

1707
01:55:09,040 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 1: to the end of the feeling we've known here. Thanks

1708
01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:14,120
Speaker 1: so much for taking the time. You know, I think

1709
01:55:14,160 --> 01:55:16,040
Speaker 1: we just hit the high points. There's a lot of

1710
01:55:16,080 --> 01:55:19,760
Speaker 1: deeper stuff I certainly have questions about, but this is

1711
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:22,480
Speaker 1: as long as we can go today. Thanks so much

1712
01:55:22,560 --> 01:55:26,080
Speaker 1: for having any Bob really appreciated. Until next time, This

1713
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:26,920
Speaker 1: is Bob Less