1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Hey, are you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind? 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: it's Saturday. Time for a vault episode. This one originally 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: aired November nineteen nineteen, and it was part one of 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: our Devourer of Memories series. Uh, this one was a 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: lot of fun. We talked about research into flat worms 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: that at least for a while, seemed to indicate that 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: maybe you could gain some other organisms memories through cannibalism. Uh, 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: that might not have held up so well, but but 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: it's a really fun story along the way. Yeah. So today, 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: if you are in the United States and you feel 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: like you have the brain of a turkey after consuming 13 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: the flash of a turkey, then this is the episode 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: for you. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production 15 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios has to work. Hey, you welcome 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going to be 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: embarking on a two part episode about the nature and 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: physical basis of memory. So in the past we've explored 20 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: the question where is my mind? We did an episode 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: about this. I think a couple of years ago, Like, 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: it seems obvious enough that cognition takes place in the brain, 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: but this hasn't always been taken for granted. And today 24 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at a very strange narrative of twenty 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: and some twenty first century research that asks a similar 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: question about memories. What are memories made of? Like, if 27 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: you have a memory of I don't know, you know, 28 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: going down the street and seeing Hulk Hogan stomping on 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: an ice cream sandwich, is that stored exclusively within the brain. 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: If so, how is it stored in the brain? And 31 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: more importantly, for today's episode, can I eat your body 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: and gain that memory for myself? Yeah? This is you know, 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: this is actually a really tremendous question. Of course, it 34 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: does touch on a number of the mythical and fictional 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: notions that we've touched on before over the years, such 36 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: as can of Google eat your brains and become you 37 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: for a limited amount of time? Or cannon immortal swordsman 38 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: cut off another immortal's head and gain their vital power. Uh, 39 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: do you know the living dead really eat brains because 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: it makes the pain of being dead go away? Is 41 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: there anything to indo cannibalistic funeral rites, you know, practiced 42 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: by various cultures throughout history since ancient times. Or how 43 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: about this, if Michael Caine loses a hand and receives 44 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: a hand transplant from a murderer, does he become more 45 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: likely to he himself murder? I assume that must be 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: based on a real movie. But whatever, Oliver Oliver Stone 47 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: directed it. As a matter of fact, what's it called. 48 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: I think it's called the Hand. But Michael Caine's ended up. 49 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: He probays like a comic book artist. I think so that, 50 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, that's the other side of it is he 51 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: used an arc um. You know, it's it's early stone. 52 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: It's not political. It's all about uh, you know, people's 53 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: hands coming off and being replaced by hand that then 54 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: has the will of a killer within it, which I 55 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: think has been explored in in other horror properties as well. Um, 56 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 1: it sounds like solid Michael Caine. Yeah. And it also 57 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: gets into an idea that came up in our recent 58 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: episode on yoga, the idea of of of memories being 59 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: stored in one's body, which of course is a little 60 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: more complicated. All this is all is more complicated when 61 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: you consider the human situation. But a lot of what 62 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about in this episode is not 63 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: dealing directly with with with human cognition and human memories, 64 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: but what we can observe in simpler but also very 65 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: important and informative organisms. Yes. Uh, though that doesn't mean 66 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: that people haven't tried to extrapolate all kinds of things 67 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: about about human memory from this research, and that will 68 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: be part of the story too. This is going to 69 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: be a mostly historical pair of episodes looking at controversial 70 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: past research and linking it to more recent studies, and 71 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: it's also going to be in two parts. As I said, 72 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: so I'd say it's it's important not to draw your 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: conclusions until you've heard the whole thing. A significant part 74 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about today is going to be 75 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: research that looked promising at one time but as widely 76 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: regarded as as being on the wrong track today. Exactly, 77 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: but still certainly there's a lot to learn by looking 78 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: at these past cases. Absolutely. Uh So. The main human 79 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: figure we're going to be looking at in the story 80 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: today was an American psychologist named Dr James V. McConnell 81 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: who lived nineteen twenty five to nineteen ninety, and I 82 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: wanted to start off by mentioning several sources about McConnell's 83 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: life and career that will be referring to in these episodes. 84 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: One was an article about McConnell by the Michigan State 85 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: University psychologist Mark Rilling that appeared in American Psychologist in 86 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: nineteen called the Mystery of the Vanished Citations uh, and 87 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: that title refers to a period where McConnell was doing 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: a lot of very influential research, but today you don't 89 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: see the citations of this research mentioned very much, and 90 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: he's sort of exploring why. That is. Another article, it 91 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: was a great article called Memory in the Flesh in 92 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,559 Speaker 1: the Verge by R. L. Do Haim Ross, and also 93 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: a couple of pieces in like two thousand ten and 94 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen for the Journal of the American Psychological 95 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: Association by a sociology professor named Larry Stern. That Verge article, 96 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: by the way, from and it's quite a good read. 97 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: Yes it is so. James McConnell was born in Okamalgy, Oklahoma. 98 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: I hope I'm saying that right, Okamalogy or Okmalgy. Yeah, 99 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: And that sounds Oklahoma enough, I think okay uh in nineteen. 100 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: He spent almost all of his professional career on faculty 101 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: at the University of Michigan, beginning in nineteen fifty six 102 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: after he got his PhD from the University of Texas 103 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: and lasting until his retirement in nineteen eighty eight, and 104 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: from the sixties through the eighties he also served as 105 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: a research psychologist at the Mental Health Research Institute of 106 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: the university. So McConnell overall was a very controversial figure 107 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: in American psychology for multiple reasons that we will explore 108 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: throughout these episodes. Widely known as innovative, enthusiastic, humorous, but 109 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: also perhaps as reckless, sometimes un serious, and undisciplined. One 110 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: interesting fact about him that will I think become more 111 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: relevant as we go on is that early on before 112 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: his academic career, he did some work in radio and 113 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: television as a DJ and a scriptwriter before going into psychology, 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: and of course this would prove valuable in a career 115 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: as a public science communicator and something of a celebrity scientist. Now, 116 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: apart from the research that we're going to be looking 117 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: at today, I think McConnell was probably best known for 118 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: founding a strange magazine called The Worm Runners Digest. I 119 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: think one major problem many psychologists had with James McConnell 120 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: during his life, UH was typified by the spirit of 121 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: this journal, which published real reports of real scientific research. 122 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: In some ways, it was kind of a clearing house 123 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: for parts of research that wasn't yet in the It 124 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: wasn't yet ready to be submitted to peer reviewed journals. 125 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: So kind of scientists would submit, uh, you know, worm 126 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: training reports and things like that to this as a 127 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: preliminary measure. But then it would publish that real research 128 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: uh and and real manuals for replication, right alongside bizarre 129 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: jokes and poems and cartoons and hoaxes and satirical articles. 130 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: So for a few article titles cited by Larry Stern, 131 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: one is the effects of physical torture on the learning 132 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: and retention of nonsense syllables. One is called operant conditioning 133 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: in the domestic darning needle Spina farrika. So a lot 134 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: of like weird psychology in jokes, sort of jokes about 135 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: the field psychologists trying to write parodies of their own 136 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: research and the and the problems they encountered within their 137 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: sub fields. Okay, okay, that's a very very specific audience 138 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: in mind them. Yes, Larry stern all So writes that 139 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: there were spoofs of Freudian theory, including quote some comments 140 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: on the addition to the theory of psycho sexual development 141 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 1: by Sigmund Fraud, which introduced the nasal stage occurring between 142 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: the anal and phallic stages, in which the libido quote 143 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: is localized primarily in the mucous linings of the nose, 144 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: which I guess is a strange reminder that, you know, 145 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: in the middle of the twentieth century, I think a 146 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: lot of psychology journals would still be dealing with a 147 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: pretty significant contingent of Freudian trained psychoanalysts. But and I 148 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: figured this would be of special interest to you. Robert 149 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: McConnell actually was also a science fiction writer and a 150 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: charter member of the Science Fiction Writers of America, which 151 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: again I would say probably didn't help his professional reputation. Yes, 152 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: perhaps not uh so from what I could find. His 153 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: sci fi stories also often seemed to be humorous and 154 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: aimed at parody of the fields that he worked in. 155 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: For example, Rilling rites about McConnell's one of mc connell's 156 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: stories called Learning Theory published in nineteen sixty five, and 157 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: in this story quote, McConnell is the protagonist who is 158 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: abducted during the preparation of a lecture on learning theory, 159 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: into an interstellar lab ship to become a subject confined 160 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: to a series of chambers that resembled the skinner box, 161 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: tea maze, and lashly jumping stand. And I had to 162 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: look up that last one. But the lastly jumping stand 163 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: was an apparatus for the study of operant conditioning, and 164 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: it gave a rat an option to jump over a 165 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: gap to two different visual stimuli. One would offer a 166 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: reward and one would cause the rat to fall into 167 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: a net below. Okay, so another just another tool that 168 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: was used in behavioral studies, right, So he's in this story, 169 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: he's writing about himself being put into the studies that 170 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: people were doing on rats in the fifties and I 171 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: guess the sixties. Two. But picking up with Rillings description 172 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: of the story quote. After first behaving according to the 173 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: predictions of learning theory, McConnell realizes that he will be 174 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: returned to ann Arbor if he misbehaves by violating the 175 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: predictions of his captor's theory of learning. McConnell was an 176 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: iconic last and his story is a spoof fun learning 177 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: theory in nineteen sixty. So I think the idea is, uh, 178 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: he's poking fun at the sort of the rain of 179 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: conventional wisdom by saying that if he were a subject 180 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: in alien psychological research, if he didn't confirm their pre 181 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: existing theories, they basically throw him out and say he 182 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: wasn't a valid research subject. Interesting. According to an obituary 183 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: I found by some University of Michigan colleagues, McConnell was 184 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: also a cultivator of orchids, as well as a lover 185 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: of computers and poker, and known by many students for 186 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:48,239 Speaker 1: quote personal zest to joy in teaching, intellectual animation, infectious enthusiasm, 187 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: and individualized attention that he brought to his classes. Uh 188 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: and Rilling points out that while much of his cannibalistic 189 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: memory transfer work that we're going to be focusing on 190 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: was later considered wrong and misguided, McConnell was actually a 191 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: really important pioneer in research into invertebrate learning and memory, 192 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: and that scientists today should be able to learn from 193 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: both his successes and his failures. Now I want to 194 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: make an admission that I'm afraid I'm going to say 195 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: something wrong in one of these episodes because I keep 196 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: accidentally calling James McConnell Jerry O'Connell, who was not a psychologist. 197 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: He was the guy in Scream Too, and he played 198 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: the football player and Jerry McGuire. No, no, I actually 199 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: haven't seen Jerry McGuire. Um, but you've got some vhs? 200 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 1: Do I have some VHS tapes? Because I'm I'm saving them. 201 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: I have to contribute them to the pyramid that is 202 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: being built in the desert because we do have to 203 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: return all the Jerry's home. But yes, I have to 204 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: actually have not watched it. Well, you know he was 205 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: like a hunky dude in the nice but no different guy, 206 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: not the actor Jerry O'Connell, James McConnell. So if I say, 207 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: Jerry O'Connell, you've got to reach across the table and 208 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: slap me. Will will you? Will you keep this pledge? Um? 209 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if I feel like getting up to 210 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: slap you, but I will try and jump in. Um. So. 211 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: Dr McConnell explores some pretty radical ideas during his career 212 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, one of them will be the primary focus 213 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: for these episodes. But he also later wrote about the 214 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: potential of using behavioral modification on criminals to enable their 215 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: re entry into society yea um. And he thought that 216 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 1: this might be used to eliminate crime and mental illness altogether. 217 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: There was a lot of enthusiasm in the mid century 218 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: among the behaviorist school of psychology for this kind of 219 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: like society revolutionizing potential of behavior modification. Right, And we 220 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: have to go back to some of these character attributes 221 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: we've touched on already, that he was when he was 222 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: excited about an idea, he was very excited about it 223 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: and infectious with his excitement. And he was something of 224 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: a public figure and would engage is kind of a 225 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: celebrity scientist. He could engage with science on a show 226 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: biz level, not just on a research level, and in 227 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,479 Speaker 1: fact often maybe did so to the detriment of public expectations. 228 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: He was accused by some colleagues of over hyping and 229 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: over interpreting and over speculating from what research existed. So 230 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: it's thought that this is the reason that it is 231 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: particularly some of these ideas that he was pushing in 232 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: this enthusiasm he was pushing regarding the behaviorism that this 233 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: is what attracted the attention of a man by the 234 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: name of Ted Kazinski. Yeah, which most people probably recognize 235 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: that name. If not, you might know him by his moniker, 236 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: the UNI Bomber. We were talking about this before we 237 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: came in. That, Like, I bet a lot of younger 238 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: listeners out there don't even remember the UNI Bomber. I 239 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: remember from when I was very young. I mean, it's 240 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: also easy to only remember, you know, a few pictures 241 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: here and there, Remember that police sketch, and remember like 242 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: a courtroom picture where you know, Kazinski looks, you know, 243 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: completely unhinged, that sort of thing. But yeah, McConnell was 244 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: one of his targets. Kauzinski mailed his tenth bomb to 245 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: Dr McConnell in an assassination at and this was in 246 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. UM he had at that time he 247 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: was working with a graduate student assistant UH named w 248 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: what is Nicholas Sueno, And so they're working together. They 249 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: opened the package and triggered the explosion. Now, thankfully both 250 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: individuals survived with only only minor injuries and mild hearing loss, 251 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: as well as what sounds like some level of PTSD 252 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: based on the experience, which I think is quite understandable. 253 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: But but yeah, just a refresher on the UNI bomber 254 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: for anyone who doesn't know or as a little foggy 255 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: uh Ted Kazinski born in ninety two was a was 256 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: a former mathematics professor and mathematician who took two acts 257 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: of murder and domestic terrorism to advance his manifesto, which 258 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: was titled Industrial Society and its Future, in which he 259 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: heavily criticized his post Industrial Revolution society and he also 260 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: criticized what he referred to as leftist psychology. Yeah, he's 261 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: sometimes he can be kind of hard to pin down 262 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: in terms of his ideology because he doesn't fit with 263 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: a lot of the standard ideological kind of groupings you 264 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: see with mass murderers and terrorists that are motivated by ideology. 265 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: He was more of a kind of idiosyncratic lone wolf terrorist. 266 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: But but he's sometimes referred to as like an anarchist primitivist. 267 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: He wanted people to return to nature and reject modern 268 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: technology and science, right, which I mean, they're they're versions 269 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: of that that of course, that are that many people 270 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: listening to the show might agree with uh, and I 271 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: they wouldn't resort to murder exactly. And I mean that's 272 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: that's the big thing to drive home here, you know. He. Yeah, 273 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: he argued for this nature centric anarchism, and in his 274 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:50,239 Speaker 1: bombings he targeted individuals involved in modern type mostly individuals 275 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: involved in modern technological advances. And that's why McConnell's work 276 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: is sometimes hard to figure out, like why this attracted 277 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: the attention of Kazinski, because it doesn't quite seem to 278 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: fit the profile at first glance. Yeah. The article I 279 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: was reading by Mark Rilling identifies McConnell's public communication on 280 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: TV and another media about behavior modification use uh, you know, 281 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: in use in criminal justice and and human behavior reform 282 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,479 Speaker 1: at the large scale as the likely culprit in attracting 283 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: Kazinski's hire. Yeah, because Kazinski did criticize modification of the 284 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: human condition, especially behavioral modification, which McConnell had become an 285 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: outspoken proponent of in the media, and Kazinski saw him 286 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: as an advocate of society's attempts to change humans to 287 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: fit the system rather than the reverse. Yeah. Between nineteen 288 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: Kazinski killed three people and injured twenty three. Uh, he 289 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: was the to the target of an intense um search 290 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: for his identity, but finally he was arrested in nineteen 291 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: and remains in prison serving a life term as with 292 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: this record. Yeah, and fortunately both McConnell and and the student, 293 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: so we know survived the Attechnic, and so McConnell lived 294 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: several years after that he passed away in So this 295 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: is just something about just a bizarre aspect of the 296 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: overall story and just certainly a historically noteworthy part of 297 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: McConnell's biography. Uh, that he just ends up, you know, 298 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: wandering into the path of of this individual and becomes 299 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: part of the Kazynski story as well. Yeah, but that's 300 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: not the main part of his life we're going to 301 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: be focusing on in these episodes. We're gonna be looking 302 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: more at his research on memory, and specifically memory research 303 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: with a group of flat worms known as planaria. So 304 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: should we take a quick break and then come back 305 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: to talk about planarians. Yes, let's go ahead and cut 306 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: the episode right here. All right, we're back. So before 307 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: we look at the experiments of James McConnell and colleagues, 308 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: we should meet a major character in this science sentific narrative, 309 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: which is a type of flat worm called planaria. Right now, 310 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: for starters planaria, there is a genus planar area. But 311 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: but but it's not who we're talking about here, is 312 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: not just organisms within that genus. Yeah, it can be 313 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: a little confusing because there are multiple things called planaria. 314 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: Planaria is also used to refer to a larger family 315 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: of related flat worms, and most of the worms that 316 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: are called planarians are outside the genus of Planaria, in 317 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: classes in the class Tubularia or the family Planaria. Day, 318 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: so we're gonna be talking about this broader class of planarians. Yeah, 319 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: the oil. You'll find them living in both fresh and 320 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: salt water. In the water, but also on land. A 321 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: terrestrial planaria are found in the soil or or damp 322 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: areas or humid places. Some are even parasitic, but most 323 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: feed on protozoans, tiny snails and worms, and they mostly 324 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: feed at night. Mostly they're they're soft. They tend to 325 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: be soft leaf shaped creatures that range from three to 326 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: fifteen millimeters, but they can reach longer lengths. They have 327 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: two eyes, and those two eyes are often quite notable 328 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: because they look like googly eyes. Yeah, you've probably seen 329 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: these before in actual photos of these worms zoomed in 330 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: their cross side. Uh. Some some of them have tentacles, 331 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: they have of ventral mouth opening and no body cavity. 332 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: They may swim via undulations or crawl like a slug. 333 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: They're also simultaneous hymaphrodites, having both sexes within a single individual. 334 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: Yet some utilize sexual reproductions and and some utilize a 335 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: sexual reproduction. And of course their legendary for their regenerative powers. Yes, 336 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: and it's these regenerative powers that are gonna play a 337 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: central role in a lot of this research. Uh. And 338 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: it may have played a role in your individual research 339 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: and even science education growing up. Oh sure, yeah maybe, 340 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: I mean so, I mean you could not have a 341 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: planarian highlander situation. You would have a real problem with 342 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: trying to keep a planary in decapitated, that's right. Uh. 343 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: And And to really drive this home, let's talk about 344 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: just how amazing their regenerative powers are. Basically, they can 345 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: be cut in half in each half will form into 346 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: a fully formed individual. In fact, it's been estimated that 347 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: a mere one two hundred and seventy nine of the 348 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: organism can once removed regenerate into a fully formed individual. 349 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: So we're talking total sourcer as apprentice territory here, and 350 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: that's really not an overstatement. Yeah, it would be like, 351 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, if you could chop my finger off and 352 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: it would grow a whole new me. Yeah. Really, And 353 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's amazing because we've we've talked on 354 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: the show before about the regenerative powers of of various 355 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: vertebrate organisms. For example, you know, and it's impressive that 356 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: a lizard co jettison its tail and re mostly regrow 357 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: that tail. Things of that nature. Many of the healing 358 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: abilities of even the human body are pretty substantial when 359 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: you really set back in and consider them. But this 360 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: is this is something far beyond most of those examples. Yeah, 361 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: I would say this goes even beyond the impressive examples 362 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,479 Speaker 1: we see in like amphibians, like salamanders. You can even 363 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: cut their head in half kind of like you started 364 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: to cut them in half with a sword and then 365 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: you got bored like around the neck. Uh you can, 366 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: you can, you can cut their head in half and 367 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: then just stop and then they'll they'll develop two heads 368 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: and live that way. In some cases, Uh, they have 369 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: there have been some very interesting experiments in how they 370 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: regenerate in micro gravity as well. For instance, normally a 371 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: two headed planaria is a rare occurrence in nature, but 372 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: in one experiment, space exposed worms were far more likely 373 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: developed a second head, to the tune of one in 374 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: fifteen worms. Uh. In amputating this worm within result in 375 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: more two headed worms. And this is this is just 376 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: one area where you know, there their further study can 377 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,239 Speaker 1: help us understand their biology and you know, to help 378 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: us better understand the effects of micro gravity on an organism. 379 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: But of course their regenerative powers in general continued to 380 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: garner a great deal of research attention. Yeah, I mean 381 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: the medical applications of regenerative biology itself are very important. Yeah. 382 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: Worth noting that Darwin actually observed these amazing creatures as well, uh, 383 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: and their amazing ability. I will read a quick quote 384 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: here from Charles Darwin. Alright, this is from a journal 385 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: of researches into the natural history and geology of the 386 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: countries visited during the voyage of HMS Beagle around the world. Quote. 387 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: Having cut one of them transversely into two nearly equal 388 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: parts in the course of a fortnight, both had the 389 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: shape of perfect animals. I had, however, so divided the 390 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: body that one of the halves contained both the inferior 391 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: orifices and the other in consequence none In the course 392 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: of twenty five days from the operation, the more perfect 393 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: half could not have been distinguished from any other specimen. 394 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: And there's more that you know here, obviously, but that's 395 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: just a taste of his fascination with the organism itself 396 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: sitting in the be goal cutting up worms. And they 397 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: continued to fascinate researches as well. Uh, you know, for 398 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: a number of reasons, um as pointed out by a 399 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: doctor only our pagan author of the first Brain. Uh. 400 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: He pointed this out in a two thousand fourteen interview 401 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: with futurism. There are other organisms with this kind of 402 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: regenerative ability, but very few are quite as excellent at 403 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: it as the planarian. And they also have a relatively 404 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: complex nervous system, which contributes to their appeal, especially when 405 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: you get into areas where you're talking about what can 406 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: we learn from the from a planarian that we can 407 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: then apply potentially in the future to human physiology. Now, 408 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,239 Speaker 1: just a few other quick fascinating facts about them, at 409 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: least one variety produces a deadly uh, produces the deadly 410 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: tetrodotoxin um. In general, their mouths emerge from a proboscis 411 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: located halfway down their body. That's cool. And those googly 412 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: eyes sometimes they described as cross eyes. Apparently nobody's exactly 413 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: sure why that is the case. I will say the 414 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: google eyes often look like an illustration, and they present 415 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: a problem with the presentation of these planarians and the 416 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: display the google eyes, because you can show a photo 417 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: of them and it looks like somebody drew it. It 418 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: doesn't look like a real world organism. It always, even 419 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: to this day, it makes me think of Spy Versus 420 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: Spy and Mad magazine. They look like the two spies, 421 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: the Black Spy and the White Spy cartoon. Yeah, so 422 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: that's the subject in a nutshell. Uh. But I imagine 423 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: we should start turning our attention to some of the experiments. Right, 424 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: So I would say the story begins with the psychological 425 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,479 Speaker 1: technique of classical conditioning. So the most common example of 426 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: classical conditioning is Pavlov's dogs, right. The Russian physiology just 427 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: Yvonne Pavlov, who lived eighteen forty nine and nineteen thirty 428 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: six was famously studying the process of digestion in dogs 429 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: when he noticed that not only did the dogs begin 430 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: to drool in the presence of food. That that would 431 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: make sense, Right, you put some food in front of 432 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: a dog, The digestion process begins with the mental stimulation 433 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: of the side of food. Right, you start producing saliva 434 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: or drool in order to help you eat. It actually 435 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: went beyond that. Pavlov observed that the dogs would start 436 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: to drool as soon as they saw the lab assistant 437 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: who usually fed them. So there's a physiological justification for 438 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: producing extra saliva. When an animal sees food, the animal's 439 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: body is preparing to eat. But Pavlov's insight was realizing 440 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: that through repeated training, you could separate the stimulus and 441 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: the response through one or more layers of abstraction. So, 442 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: of course the lab assistant isn't food. But the dog 443 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: comes to learn through repeated instances is that every time 444 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: it sees the assistant, it's about to get food, and 445 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: thus the body prepares itself to eat and digest. And 446 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: this was later done with all kinds of different things 447 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: with auditory cues such as a bell or a metronome, 448 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: the dog. Here's the sound. It knows the food is coming, 449 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: and the body responds. And I don't know about you, 450 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: but like, this is something that helps define my relationship 451 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: with my pet. Like I think about this all the 452 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: time when observing my cat's relationship with our household environment. Absolutely, 453 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: I think about my dog's relationship with any stimulus such 454 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: as sound or visual cues that may signal a walk 455 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: is about to take place. So like the picking up 456 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: of the keys, the putting on of the coach, the 457 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: putting on of the shoes, all these different things are 458 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: like start to trigger this powerful excitement reaction in the dog, 459 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: even though none of them are are opening the door, 460 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: leashing up, going out for a walk, right, none of 461 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: them are in an of themselves the desired reward. But 462 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: there are various bits of stimuli associated with that eventual 463 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: reward of course. So yeah, we are constantly, even accidentally 464 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,239 Speaker 1: classically conditioning our pets whenever something that they're interested in, 465 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: whether positively or negatively, is about to happen. If it 466 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: happens repeatedly, you're probably training them, whether you want to 467 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: be or not. Can is open, might be foods, as 468 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: the cat um the rattle of foil walking into the kitchen, um, etcetera. Yeah, uh, 469 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: and this is widely acknowledged as one of the most 470 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: useful discoveries in the history of experimental psychology. Of course, 471 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: it works with both positive and negative stimuli. You can also, 472 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: for example, administer a mildly painful shock every time somebody 473 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: hears the Batman theme, and after enough repetition, the person 474 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: or the animal is probably gonna freeze or WinCE when 475 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: they hear the music, even if no shock is administered. 476 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: A call back to our recent episode of Invention, our 477 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: other podcast about the history and the techno history of inventions, 478 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: we did one on the turnspit dog. If you're not aware, 479 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: there was a time in the history, especially in Britain, 480 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: where small dogs turned little wheels to keep the spit 481 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: of meat turning by the fire. And one of the 482 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: problems with using dogs for this particular bit of work 483 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: is that they are smart and they pick up on 484 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: these clues. So you they might pick up on these 485 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: little signs that that inform them that some meat is 486 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: going to be skewer, that they're the roast is going 487 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: to be had for dinner, or maybe just a big 488 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: dinner is going to take place, and then the dog 489 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: will run off and hide. Exactly what they should have 490 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: found to turn those spits was like a large invertebrate 491 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: that was not very good at learning through classical conditioning. 492 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: Uh oh, And just to keep things clear, because this 493 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: is something that I used to confuse myself. What's the 494 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: difference between these two terms, classical conditioning and operant conditioning. 495 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: You've probably heard both of them. Uh, They're similar. They're 496 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: both based on learning associations between two things. But the 497 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: difference is classical conditioning pair there's two external stimuli. For example, 498 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: I show you a picture of Sean Connery and I 499 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: give you an electric shock. So every time you know, 500 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: if you do that enough and when you see the 501 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: picture of Sean Connery, you'll win s or freeze or 502 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: react as if you're going to get a shock, even 503 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: if you don't. Meanwhile, operant conditioning associates a reward or 504 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: a punishment with a behavior supplied by the subject. So 505 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: for example, if you jump three times, you get a 506 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: bag of candy corn. Now we know perfectly well that 507 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: these types of conditioning classical conditioning operant conditioning work with 508 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: a number of more complex life forms, like rats, like dogs, 509 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: like humans. But there was an interesting question that came 510 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: up in the twentieth century, which was did it work 511 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: for less complex life forms like say worms? All right, 512 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take one more break, 513 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back. Thank thank alright, we're back, 514 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: all right. So we've been discussing classical condition shinning, behavioral conditioning, 515 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: and the fact that this we we know this works 516 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: in more complex life forms like mammals, rats, dogs, humans, 517 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,479 Speaker 1: but does it work in less complex life forms like 518 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: worms and other invertebrates. In the nineteen fifties, the answer 519 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: to this question was pretty well understood, and that answer 520 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: was no. Invertebrates could not learn the way that rats 521 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: and monkeys and other mammals could. Mark Rilling makes this 522 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: point at length in his article, writing that the widely 523 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,959 Speaker 1: held view, especially among zoologists and psychologists who were not 524 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: experts directly in animal behavior, was that invertebrates had no 525 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: capacity for internal memory states, and the only thing that 526 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: the that they could do that would even approximate learning 527 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: might come from temporary changes in body tissue. Rilling quotes 528 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: a leading textbook of comparative psychology at the time. I 529 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: think it's from the nineteen thirties on a question of 530 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: whether invertebrates can learn associations through conditioning in the passage reads. 531 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: Experience may temporarily alter the form of behavior by inducing 532 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: local tissue change, but such changes are wiped out by 533 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: subsequent events and have no permanent altering effect. Uh. It 534 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: was also the opinion of a contemporary researcher in the 535 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties I think named Donald Jensen quote that no invertebrate, 536 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: no matter how complex, is capable of showing true associative learning. 537 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: So that's the consensus invertebrates can't learn. As for this 538 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: distinction they're making about true learning versus tissue change, I 539 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: think the distinction here is that, like if a worm 540 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: or an insect could be conditioned to go left rather 541 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: than right in a maze, it might only be because, 542 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: for example, the conditioning process had made the legs or 543 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: the wings or something on one side of the body stronger. Uh. 544 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: The bottom line was that animals without backbones cannot truly 545 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 1: learn the same way animals like us can. You couldn't 546 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: have a Pavlov's worm or a Pavlov's crab, though the 547 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: authors of the textbook quoted by Rilling make exactly one exception. 548 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: They admit that this rule might not apply to planaria. 549 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: But of course McConnell, as usual, was sort of disposition 550 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: alle opposed to the conventional wisdom. He was something of 551 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: an iconoclast, and he did not accept the idea in 552 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties that invertebrates could not learn. He wanted 553 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: to find out if worms could be trained, could he 554 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: become a worm tamer. So here we move on into 555 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: the first stage of this research history, the worm conditioning. 556 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: So in nineteen fifty three McConnell was in graduate studies 557 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: at the University of Texas and uh then this year 558 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: and some of the following years he he collaborated with 559 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: another researcher named Robert Thompson to demonstrate that planarians could 560 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: be classically conditioned. And the basic set up here involved 561 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: learning of responses to light light stimuli. Again, most of 562 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: them are going to be nocturnal, uh, so light is 563 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: going to play an important role in their behavior. Yeah, 564 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: and certainly yeah through their you know, day night cycles 565 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So they can detect a light. 566 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: They have the ability to to tell when a light 567 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: is being flashed. So planaria usually live at least the 568 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: planaria they were working with usually live in aquatic environments, 569 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: and they move from one place to another by gliding 570 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: across the bottom surface of a pool, usually along slime 571 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: trails that they deposit as they move. So McConnell and 572 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: Thompson put together a test with a foot long pool 573 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: of water in which they would deposit a planarian and 574 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: then the worm could glide from one end to the 575 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: pool to the other. Then, for the conditioning groups, McConnell 576 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: and Thompson would train the worms by flashing a light 577 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: above the water, paired with an electric shock applied to 578 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: the whole pool. To the water and the conditioned responses 579 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: the researchers were looking for in response to the light 580 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: after training were contraction of the worm's body and turning 581 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,239 Speaker 1: of the of the direct and when the behavior of 582 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: these trained planaria was compared with control groups, they found 583 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: that while the planarian learning effect was not extremely strong, 584 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: it was undeniably present. The condition worms showed an increase 585 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,720 Speaker 1: in contraction in response to the light from from about 586 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: two percent in the first fifty trials to about ten 587 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: percent in the last fifty trials, and turns started at 588 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: a rate of about twenty in response to light, but 589 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: increased throughout the test period to thirty five percent after conditioning. 590 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: So as you can see, the planarian probably does not 591 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: learn it nearly the efficiency of a mammal like a 592 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: rat or a dog or an orangutan. But these nevertheless 593 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: are significant changes. So, however weak, some learning was clearly 594 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: taking place, and as a as a modern note, just 595 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: to be clear, the established wisdom about invertebrates being unable 596 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: to learn through association was pretty much completely wrong, and 597 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: planaria were not the only exception. I was looking at 598 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: one paper by Hawkins and burn From published in Cold 599 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: Springs Harbor Perspectives Perspectives in biology called associate of Learning 600 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: and Invertebrates, and they say that rudimentary forms of associative 601 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: learning are found basically throughout the animal kingdom. One commonly 602 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: studied example used in invertebrate learning and memory research is 603 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: the California sea hair or applies ya californica. Almost said, 604 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: applies a californication californica. So it's a huge sea slug. 605 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: I was looking this up. It could barely be up 606 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: to seventy five centimeters long. And way up to about 607 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: seven kilograms or fifteen pounds. That's a that's a real 608 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: mother of a sea slug. Can you imagine trying to 609 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: pick up a fifteen pounds sea slug? No? No, I 610 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: mean one scarcely imagines it coming out of the water, right, 611 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: But uh, I can't help just because we're talking about 612 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: something that they see hair. Uh I always think of 613 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: them behaving and rabbit like, behave here, you know, or 614 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: even delivering Easter eggs. Well, one also thinks about the 615 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: sea monster that was popular on medieval and Renaissance maps, 616 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: the sea hare. Oh well, leave, I talked about chet 617 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: Manduser with the sea hare, yes, or I talked with 618 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: chet Mandouzer about the sea hare. Yeah. That's one of 619 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: the fun things about sea monsters is that we have 620 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: all these things that are sort of named and have 621 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: the same name, like a sea hair, a sea lion, etcetera. 622 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: But in the history of sea monsters, pretty much every 623 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: creature that was known to reside on the surface had 624 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: a double in the deep. Right. The medieval and Renaissance 625 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: map sea hair has nothing to do with the sea here. 626 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: It was not a slug. It had fuzzy bunny ears 627 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: and you could have a velveteen sea hair and it 628 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: would be very sad. But yeah, so this sea hare 629 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: is a giant sea slug, and experiments show that it 630 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: can learn associations, for example, a conditioned retraction of the 631 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: gill and siphon organs that strengthened by noxious stimuli like 632 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: electric shocks to the tail. So while learning responses are 633 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: going to vary according to a creature's nero anatomy, there 634 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: appears to be no general rule against invertebrate learning. Okay, 635 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: that's good to know heading forward. So it's not just 636 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: this idea that, like all the eggs are in this 637 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: one basket for invertebrate learning, only the planarians can learn. No, 638 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: that is not the case. We we got some smart 639 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: sea hairs, relatively smart. But again, to emphasize this was 640 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: the opposite of the conventional wisdom leading into the nineteen fifties, UH, 641 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: and to some degree, even after research demonstrating that there 642 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: was invertebrate learning like, consensus among experts at the time 643 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: resisted the idea of true invertebrate learning even after some 644 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: published studies. One example cited by Rilling concerns a response 645 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: after McConnell and colleagues seemed to indicate that the condition 646 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: learning they could elicit in planaria had a sustained effect 647 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: that the memory associations lasted not just for hours, not 648 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: just for days, but literally for for months at a time. 649 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: I think they set up to four months. In response 650 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: to this, UH, a renowned zoologist specializing in invertebrates named 651 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: Libby Hyman Say apparently said multiple times, No, that just 652 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: can't be and argued that maybe a planarian could remember 653 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: something for like five minutes or so, but the memory 654 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: retention for weeks or months was just unthinkable. But we 655 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: already see some things at work here in UH in 656 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: McConnell's story, So Rilling points out that while these results 657 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: did bear out and UH he thinks did generally demonstrate 658 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: planarian learning and and showed something that is real and true, 659 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: you could already see some of McConnell's methodological shortcomings at work. 660 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: For example, he and Thompson did not use any kind 661 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: of automatic measuring of the flatworm responses, but instead use 662 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: the more traditional method of quote naturalistic observation, which I 663 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: think means that they just watched to see what happened. 664 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,479 Speaker 1: You can probably guess why psychologists today try to find 665 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: ways not to rely on experiment or is just eyebawling 666 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: it when making a judgment about what happened. Uh, You're 667 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: you're way more subject to experiment or bias this way. 668 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: You want to if POSSE will come up with an 669 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: automatic method, right, because I mean, ironically what you're dealing 670 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 1: with when you're just dealing with observations as you are, 671 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: of course dealing with memory. Um, even if certainly if 672 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: you're making notes about what you're seeing as you're seeing it, 673 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: you're still having to rely then on your memory of 674 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: the observation far better and you know, far more reliable 675 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: to be able to point to say measurements yeah, yeah, 676 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: done by a machine or something, have some kind of 677 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: method that's not just your subjective judgment of what you 678 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: just saw, being able to say this organism moved you know, 679 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: however far have left in this experiment, and then in 680 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: a second experiment the same thing definitely occurred. Yes, Uh. 681 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: And I want to be clear that like this doesn't 682 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: experiment or bias doesn't have to result from experimenters trying 683 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: to trick anyone or being trying to commit conscious fraud. 684 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: For their results, so they can be doing their honest 685 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: best to try to represent things accurately. But still, you know, 686 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: observation is somewhat subjective. You're going to honestly believe you 687 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: saw something differently than somebody else did, or you know, 688 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: our observations and our memories are not perfect, and they're 689 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: highly influenced by what we want to see or expect 690 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: to see. Also, Rilling points out that McConnell and Thompson's 691 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 1: graduate advisor here was a comparative psychologist named M. E. Bitterman, 692 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 1: who was critical of both students for not being careful enough, 693 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: for example, not including a control group that were exposed 694 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,399 Speaker 1: to both shocks and light flashes but unpaired from each 695 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: other to more firmly establish a causal link for the 696 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: for the conditioning process itself. But what if they had 697 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: gotten both flashes and shocks and they just weren't linked 698 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: the same way they were in the in the test group, 699 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,760 Speaker 1: And they apparently didn't do that, And so Rilling seems 700 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: to see this as characteristic of McConnell's career as a whole. 701 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: Uh to quote from him in a summary passage, quote, 702 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: McConnell an innovator raced from one exciting phenomenon to next 703 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: without comprehensive experimental analysis or adequate controls. McConnell's controls were 704 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: often developed as a response to his critics. McConnell's students 705 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: and other scientists were left to the task of cleaning 706 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: up after McConnell by adding the control groups that he omitted. 707 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: And I think it's easy to see how this kind 708 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: of thing can be at at the same time very 709 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: uh winning and exciting, especially to maybe the general public 710 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,240 Speaker 1: and you know, publications writing about his exciting and strange 711 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: and counterintuitive new research, but also really irritating to appears 712 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: in the field if you're vaulting from one flashy, controversial, 713 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: exciting discovery to another without taking the time to slow 714 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: down and be sure you're on firm ground after each 715 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 1: stop right, because the ideal process. If the study comes 716 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: out and there's some sort of problem with it, than 717 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: than you know, the others in the field chime in. 718 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: There's a sort of amount of course correction that takes place. 719 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: You go back to the drawing board, try to figure 720 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: out how you went. Yeah, yeah, may yeah, maybe tell 721 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 1: you complete step or two backwards. You don't just keep 722 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: going along this line because you know that there is 723 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 1: gold on the other end. But at the same time, 724 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you can totally understand the temptation to do 725 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: it that way. It sounds so much more exciting than 726 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: trying to buckle down and be super sure and super 727 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: rigorous about what you think you already proved well. Un 728 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: as we get into something we've discussed some the show 729 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: before about just in the nature of scientific inquiry, Like 730 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: it's one of these things that in some ways it 731 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: is very much like how the human mind works and 732 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: how humans have always solved problems. Uh, you can find, 733 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: you know, examples of what is essentially scientific inquiry, certainly 734 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,919 Speaker 1: in in in prehistoric people's But at the same time, 735 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: there are aspects of scientific inquiry that defy what it 736 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: is to be a human problem solver, that that that 737 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: perfect the method in ways that don't make sense just 738 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: within the confines of you know, you know, minute to 739 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: minute human experience exactly. Trial and error comes naturally, but 740 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: we're way too prone to rely on heuristics, you know, 741 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: to to use our sort of standard day to day 742 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: trial and error judgment for real scientific investigation, because usually 743 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: we only need one or two examples of something going 744 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: right for us to derive a rule from it, and 745 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: one or two examples is not. You know, that's still 746 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: an anecdote scientifically. Here's an example from my my life 747 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: as a parent. Um My son at an early age 748 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: was enthralled by claw machines like pizza parlors and um 749 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,399 Speaker 1: and whatnot. And so the first time I let him 750 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: try it, I said, Okay, here's the quarter, you can 751 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: try it. And I was thinking he'll learn a good lesson. 752 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 1: You know, you won't pick anything up with the clause, 753 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,320 Speaker 1: And I don't see. This is a tricky machine made 754 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: exclusively to take his money by tempting when with the 755 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,400 Speaker 1: idea that will win a cheap prize. And then he 756 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: wins a cheap prize the first time, right, So I 757 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: instantly said the wrong lesson. And then there was another 758 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: case like shortly thereafter, maybe a little long later, but 759 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: he had some credits at some sort of parlor as 760 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: part of a children's birthday party, did it again, won 761 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: a prize, and so now it's ruined like to the 762 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: two prizes makes a rule of the claw machines are 763 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: where you get cheap toys, and the trickery is you 764 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: know someone lost on him at this at this point anyway, 765 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: Oh no, I mean that kind of learning. I've actually 766 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: wondered before if that could feature into and maybe as 767 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: far as we know, it already does, but could in 768 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: the future feature into a a more insidious type of 769 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: slot machine. It's a more perfect gambling addiction creator and 770 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: money extractor. And what how it would simply work is 771 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: it's got a camera on there with facial recognition, and 772 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: it can recognize if you've played a slot machine in 773 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: this casino before, and if you haven't it's and it's 774 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: your first time. It gives you a small payout on 775 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 1: your first go. Yeah, I give you that that that 776 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: that first time user beginner luck, but also give you 777 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 1: false expectations about what's playing a slot machine is all about, exactly. 778 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: But I hope I didn't just give ideas to some 779 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: really insidious designer there, right, because to be sure, to 780 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,840 Speaker 1: be clear, and we certainly did a couple of episodes 781 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,320 Speaker 1: and slot machines in the past. A slot machines purpose 782 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: is to take your money, and the slot machine playing 783 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,720 Speaker 1: experience is the loss of money. Yeah, the slot machine 784 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: is not designed to help you win big. If you 785 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: want to play them, you should understand that you are 786 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: paying for an entertaining experience and that's the best case scenario. Alright, 787 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: We we got a little off topic there, but it's 788 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,959 Speaker 1: just as well because we've kind of hit our time 789 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 1: for this part of the inquiry. We're gonna be back 790 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: in the next episode to continue this discussion of planarians 791 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: to what extent can they can they learn? But also 792 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: we're going to get into this other area about the 793 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: absorption of another worm's memory. Is it possible uh, through cannibalism? 794 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: Through cannibalism, And then how does McConnell get into trouble 795 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: based on his reported findings, and then where do we 796 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,240 Speaker 1: go from here in the modern age. In the meantime, 797 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 798 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, head on over to Stuff to 799 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That is the mothership. That's 800 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,359 Speaker 1: where we'll find them all. You will also find them 801 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: all at any place that you acquire your podcasts and 802 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. We just asked that you 803 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,399 Speaker 1: subscribe and that you leave a nice review, leave us 804 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: some stars and or a nice comment, because this helps 805 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,360 Speaker 1: us out in the long run. If you want to 806 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: check out other shows that were involved in. First of all, 807 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,760 Speaker 1: there's Invention. We've mentioned that one before on the show already, 808 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: and uh, this is a journey through human techno history. 809 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 1: Find it an Invention pod dot com or wherever you 810 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. We've mentioned the second oil age that 811 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: is out as well, if you want to a short 812 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: form of fiction horror fiction exploration throughout your holidays. Oh 813 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: and I should also note if you were interested in 814 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind merchandise, we still have the 815 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: old T shirt store and I am to understand that 816 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,399 Speaker 1: there is going to be a sale of some sort 817 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 1: coming up. Uh you know how it is you get 818 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,439 Speaker 1: around Thanksgiving, there are all these sales. The same will 819 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 1: be true of our T shirt store. You can find 820 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: some old favorites like the Squirrels are Not what they seem, 821 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,560 Speaker 1: the Scugs shirt. Also, of course, the the Great Basilisk 822 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: shirt was a big hit to the sphere catastrophe and 823 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,240 Speaker 1: it's one of my favorites, as well as some standard 824 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 1: logo stuff. And I believe there's gonna be a new 825 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: shirt in the store as well, so that's gonna be 826 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: worth checking out. Definitely. By all the merch huge thanks 827 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 828 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 829 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,600 Speaker 1: with feedback on today's episode, to suggest a topic for 830 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 831 00:47:48,480 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 832 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: Have to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart 833 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,359 Speaker 1: Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 834 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 835 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.