1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: we don't have an amazing show for you today. Volts 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: David Roberts joins us to talk the latest in climate change. 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: It's changing. But first we have the author of the 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Law of Presidential Impeachment, A Guide for the Engaged Citizen, 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Michael Geherhardt. Welcome to Fast Politics. 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: Michael, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Law of Presidential Impeachment, The Guide 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: for the Engaged Citizen. Explain to us what this book 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: is about. 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: Well, my hope is that the book will clarify and 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: educate folks about what the law of presidential impeachment is. 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: That means sort of explaining the con social process for 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: impeachment and clarifying any sort of misconceptions and hopefully making 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: it somewhat easier for the public to follow and if 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: they wish to engage in the process to do so. 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: And I go through several of the presidential impeachments in 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: our history to try to explain what happened and their 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: impact on the law. 22 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Give me the presidential impeachment shorthand here 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: are like, give me the earliest one. In some background 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: on that. 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: I think the basic law of presidential impeachment is that 26 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: presidents are subject to impeachment for and conviction for treason, bribery, 27 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: and other serious abuses of power. 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: Period. 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: That's the basic thrust of the law of presidential impeachment. 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: In many respects, it's not that complicated, but as I 31 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: try to explain the book, there is an incentive for 32 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: the people who are subjected to impeachment, such as presidents, 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: to try and confuse or create some uncertainty over that 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: basic law. I just can you say a little more sure. 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: What impeachment was designed to do was to provide a 36 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: mechanism for addressing presidential misconduct or presidential abuses of power 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: that the legal system did not provide an adequate remedy for. 38 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: So we've got civil proceedings to deal with damages, we 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: have chronal proceedings to deal with people who break the 40 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: criminal law and need to be put in jail or prison. 41 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: But impeachment is not really focusing on the legal answer. 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: So the legal sanctions. It's looking at the kind misconduct 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: for which our legal system provides no other remedy. So, 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 2: for example, if a president abuses his power, typically that's 45 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: not a crime, but it does seriously injure the republic. 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: So the focus in presidential impeachment proceedings is primarily on 47 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: abuses of power or breaches the public trust that the 48 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: law civil or criminal does not adequately otherwise address. 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: So Andrew john was the first president to be impeached. 50 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: He was the first president to face a serious impeachment effort, 51 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: and as you point out, yes, he was the first 52 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: American president to be formally impeached by the House of 53 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 2: Representatives on roughly ten articles of impeachment, which if you 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: try to summarize them, basically mean that he was impeached 55 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: for trying to obstruct or impede reconstruction policy in the 56 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: United States. I was the policy fashioned by Congress to 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: control or govern the constitual state of affairs after the 58 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: Civil War. 59 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: But the impeachment is sort of meant to be a punishment, right, 60 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: But he didn't leave office or anything. 61 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: Well to begin with, it's not entirely clear that impeachment 62 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: is meant to punish. It's designed to protect the republic 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: from a president who is lawless or a president who 64 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: is abusing his power, and the sanctions are very limited, 65 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: limited to removal from office or disqualification, basically meaning ever 66 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: serving again in a federal officer up the penchancy person 67 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: might have otherwise earned. 68 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: Really, Trump could have had that penalty after his first 69 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: or his second impeachment right of not being able to 70 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: run for office again. 71 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: Yes, if the Congress had formally disqualified him, that would 72 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: have precluded him from being able to seek another federal 73 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: office or more particularly occupy another federal office such as 74 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: the presidency. 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: Okay, so just making sure it was well within the 76 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: range of outcomes of impeachment. If Republicans had gone along with. 77 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: That, Yes, if Republicans had supported convicting Trump either in 78 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen for a business of power or obstruction of 79 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: justice or later for inciting an insurrection at the Capitol, 80 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 2: if Republican senators had joined Democratic senators, they would have 81 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: had enough numbers to convict him at the end of 82 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: his trial and impose the sanction of either removal or disqualification. 83 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: It's so interesting, all right, Let's get back to this 84 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: idea with Buchanan, who came before Johnson, they sort of 85 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: tried to get it together, but there was no trial. 86 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 2: Right Well, Buchanan was not impeached, but he was criticized 87 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: heavily at the end of his presidency for taking the 88 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: position that the federal government had no power to protect 89 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 2: itself or its federal forts from being attacked by secessionists. 90 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: That was a grave sort of abuse of power. But 91 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: because it was nearing the end of his presidency, I 92 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 2: think the focus was more on Lincoln than it was 93 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: ultimately on just how bad bu Canan had become. 94 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: Our modern impeachments, though, are really quite different. But then 95 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: you had a long period in American history when there 96 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: were no presidential impeachments. 97 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: That's correct. So after Andrew Johnson was acquitted by a 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 2: single vote in the Senate, you need at least two 99 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: thirds of the Senators to agree to convict, and the 100 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: Senate fell one vote short of that. It was more 101 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 2: than one hundred years before another president faced serious impeachment efforts, 102 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: and that was Richard Nixon. In the aftermath of the 103 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: Watergate scandal. 104 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: With Richard Nixon, he decides to resign. 105 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: Why, I think there were a number of forces that 106 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: came together. And this is actually an important lesson of 107 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: the effort to impeach Richard Nixon is impeachment oftentimes is 108 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 2: not a power that is used except for being the 109 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: last resort. So there may be other processes and other 110 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: efforts to try and keep the president within bounds that 111 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 2: are failing, And with Richard Nixon, in a sense, he 112 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: was running out of options. By the end of his presidency. 113 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: A special prosecutor, along with the House and the Senate, 114 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: all of them had been conducting investigations of Nixon's possible misconduct, 115 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: and that culminated in, among other things, a Supreme Court 116 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: case Springcourt decision known as the Watergate tapes case, which 117 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: the unanimous Supreme Court ordered Nixon to turn over taped 118 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 2: conversations in the White House. Nixon complied with that order. 119 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: Complying with that order, he turned over tape conversations that 120 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 2: essentially became like a smoking gun. In those conversations, it 121 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: was clear Nixon had tried to order up or otherwise 122 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: participate in a cover up of the break into the 123 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: Democratic headquarters, but he basically had ordered and so once 124 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: the Springboard made that order, then the House Judiciary Committee 125 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: very quickly moved, based on two years of investigations, to 126 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: approve three impeachment articles against Nixon. So he had the 127 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: springboard decision saying he had to comply turnover tapes. How 128 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: Judicial Committee acted on what they learned from those tapes 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: and other evidence they had amassed, and at that point 130 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: Nixon faced absolutely certain impeachment. He met with representatives from 131 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: the House and the Senate, Republican leaders from both, and 132 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: they all told him that he could not expect much 133 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: support in the Senate, and in fact, that would mean 134 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: he would not only be impeached by a majority in 135 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: the House, but he would be convicted and removed by 136 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: the Senate. And therefore Nixon realized he had no option 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: but to resign. 138 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: So he really he saw that he didn't have the 139 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: votes to stay in office. 140 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: That is correct. 141 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: Do you think that Nixon resigning created a kind of 142 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: false sort of feeling that maybe Trump would resign. 143 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: I think it's a really important question, and I think 144 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: Nixon's resignation led some people to believe, and they believe 145 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 2: this for quite a long time until we got around 146 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: to Clinton and Trump, that presidents would consider resigning if 147 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: they faced certain and certain conviction. Another way to put 148 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: that is that presidents might prefer to opt to resign 149 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: rather than face the embarrassment of having a majority of 150 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: the House vote to impeach and two thirds of the 151 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: Senate or more voting to convict. But another way yet 152 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: to think of it is Nixon's resignation might have given 153 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 2: rise to the belief that what we really have left 154 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 2: as a means to address presidential from his conduct is 155 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: not much the impeachment process but forced resignation, and that 156 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: falls apart. That's really just a myth that just falls 157 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: apart when, for example, Bill Clinton absolutely refused to resign 158 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: even though he's was impeached by the House, and Trump 159 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: not once but twice refused to resign even though it 160 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: was clear Trump was going to be impeached. And Clinton 161 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: and Trump, I think, in a sense had the outlook 162 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: that they were never going to give up, but they 163 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: had fought so hard to get they were going to 164 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: be forced to give it up, that is to say, 165 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 2: kicked out of office. But with Trump, I think there 166 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: was the additional fact that I should say, actually with 167 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: both Trump and Clinton, they recognized that if the members 168 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 2: of their party stayed largely unified in the Senate that 169 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: would block any conviction or removal. And that's exactly what happened. 170 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such an interesting thing. There really is an evolution, 171 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: and Bill Clinton is part of that. Right that you 172 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: can't compare the impeachment of bi Clinton to the impeachment 173 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: of ROGERD. Nixon, Right, There wasn't a partisan aspect to 174 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,119 Speaker 1: Nixon's impeachment. 175 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: Well, in the beginning, there was some partisan division over it, 176 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: but over time. Keep in mind there were two years 177 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: of investigations in the House of the Senate before the 178 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: House Judicial Committee commenced an impeaching acquirer against Nixon. So 179 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: the more evidence became public of possible Nixonian misconduct, the 180 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: fidelity that some Republicans might have had to put party 181 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 2: over principle began to sort of crumble. And when the evidence, 182 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: including that last smoking gun, became public, Republicans, I think, 183 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: to their credit, didn't just pretend that evidence did not exist. 184 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: They recognized that there was something more important than party fidelity. 185 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,119 Speaker 2: They recognized that Nixon had abused his powers, and impeachrimot 186 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: was the appropriate remedy to try and use to rid 187 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: the nation in a sense of his presidency. I think 188 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 2: Republicans tried mightily during the Clinton impeachment preceding to argue, oh, 189 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: Clinton was just like Nixon. In fact, Republicans used some 190 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: of the same language that had been used in the 191 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: articles of impeachment approved about the House Juducuy committee against 192 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: Richard Nixon. But as you point out, if you look 193 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: more closely at the facts Clinton and Nixon, they're not 194 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: really similar at all. Clinton's basic problem, as we all know, 195 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: was that he lied under oath about the relationship he 196 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: had with somebody who had once worked in the White House, 197 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: and then Clinton sort of tried to hide that fact. 198 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: That's a far cry from Richard Nixon, who had first 199 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: tried to obstruct justice in all sorts of different ways. Secondly, 200 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: Nixon had ordered the heads of various agencies to go 201 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: after his political enemies. That's about as bad as president 202 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: from his comment. And then lastly, Nixon refused to comply 203 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: with four legislative subpoenas. And you can't find anything in 204 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: Clinton's misconduct that kind of lines up with any one 205 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: of those three. 206 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: So we had two Trump impeachments the first time. Very 207 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: impressive is to have you know, we have a Republican 208 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: House that would like to impeach Biden. On vibes, it's 209 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: clearly a progression, right, It's a sort of quid pro quo, 210 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: and we don't know how much of it is driven 211 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: by Trump, who actually, you know, has said publicly that 212 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: he would like to see Biden impeach. It's hard to 213 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: look at something like this and think that we're going 214 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: to get better. But I mean, we did have a 215 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: long period between you know, we had one hundred years 216 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: of no impeachment. I mean, could we have one hundred 217 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: more years of no impeachment or is humanity not going 218 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: to last that long? 219 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 2: Well? I would like to think that's possible, but I 220 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: think at this point the tribalism and hyperpartisanship which characterized 221 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: Congress makes that prospect quite unlikely. Even during the Trump impeachment, 222 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: the first Trump impeachment, many Republicans in Congress threatened to 223 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: go after the next president happened to be a Democrat. 224 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: So drumbeat to go after Biden began before he ever 225 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: became president, and even after he won the presidency, there's 226 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: been this drum beat as well of trying to impeach 227 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: him and we've gotten to the point where the Speaker 228 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: of the House, Mike Johnson, who has a very faithful 229 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: Trump devotee, has claimed that Biden is the most corrupt 230 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 2: leader in the history of the United States. Now, he 231 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: says that after the Republican's own expert witness in the 232 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 2: first hearing on Biden's impeachment said there's not enough evidence 233 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: here to indicate that Biden's committed any impeachable offense. So 234 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: there's real gap between what so called evidence shows and 235 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: the rhetoric of Republicans who want to go after Biden. 236 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: I believe for two reasons. One is to hurt his reelection, 237 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: and the other is to gut impeachment as a serious 238 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 2: mechanism for presidential impeachment. Indeed, if the Republicans are successful, 239 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: they will have gutted impeachment just in time for Donald 240 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: Trump to regain the White House and therefore not have 241 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: to face impeachment as an impediment to those things he's 242 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 2: promising on the campaign trail, such as jailing all of 243 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: his critics. 244 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, not excited for that, speaking as a Trump critic. 245 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, Michael. 246 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: Thank you'spin an honor I appreciate it. 247 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: David Roberts is the editor of the newsletter called Vaults. 248 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, David. 249 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: Roberts, great to be here. 250 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: Always a delight big comp climate conference in Dubai. Where 251 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: else to have a climate conference. 252 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: What happened, Well, the usual happened, which is like a 253 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: big basically climate festival, dozens and dozens of groups having 254 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 3: their little sub meetings, and basically people just go to 255 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: see other people. I mean ninety percent of the stuff 256 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: that goes on at those things is unrelated to the 257 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: official business. So mostly it was just a big burning 258 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 3: man for climate nerds out in the desert in the 259 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: official deliberations. Basically, the big news, which I realized might 260 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 3: sound slightly ridiculous to people outside of this world, but 261 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 3: the big news is that the countries of the world 262 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: finally unanimously acknowledged the fact that transitioning to a clean 263 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 3: energy economy means transitioning away from fossil fuels, which is, 264 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: you know, of course, something you could know just by 265 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: reading the Wikipedia entry on climate change, but it is 266 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 3: a very big deal, you know, the oil producing nations 267 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 3: to say it, and there was a big fight over it. 268 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 3: There was going to be it was going to be 269 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 3: a phase out, then it was going to be a 270 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: phase down, and then they didn't like that either. There's 271 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: a lot of fighting and fighting, and they ended up 272 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 3: with transitioning away from fossil fuels. 273 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: Don't they know this? 274 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 3: Everybody knows we're going to net zero, right, that's the 275 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 3: big that's the shared the shared target. But net zero 276 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 3: means basically where sequestering at least as much as we 277 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: are emitting, right, And so the big question is how 278 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: much of that is just reducing emissions and how much 279 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 3: of that is offsetting emissions with burying carbon. And of 280 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: course the big oil producers would like to continue a 281 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 3: robust production of oil and gas and just offset it 282 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 3: all by burying carbon, which is wild, wild, wildly and 283 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 3: totally unrealistic. But the question of how much offsets versus 284 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: reductions is an open question and that's what all this 285 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 3: fighting about language is ultimately about, right, all. 286 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: Right, But in the end they know they have. 287 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: To they know they have to change. I mean, Saudi 288 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 3: Arabia is investing hugely in solar fields and you know, 289 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 3: in hydrogen, and like everybody, you know, at this point, 290 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 3: everybody knows what's happening. It's all we're just arguing about 291 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: speed and pace and who pays and whose ox gets gored, 292 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 3: and who gets subsidized, you know, who gets a just transition, 293 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 3: help with the transition, and who gets stranded. It's just 294 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 3: all you know, it's all those details, right. 295 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: Who gets some money for having their house ruined and 296 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: who does that? 297 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, Like you know, the big oil producing states 298 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 3: want to be compensated somehow for this giant loss of income, 299 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 3: but of course, like are the Bangladeshi is going to 300 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 3: be compensated for losing land to tsunamis, et cetera. You know, 301 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 3: there's millions of people around the earth already who are 302 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 3: being hurt by climate change and aren't being compensated. So 303 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 3: you know, it's the big power players negotiating over money, 304 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 3: which is you know what everything is in the end. 305 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: Really, this actually was a little bit better than we 306 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: thought it would be, right. 307 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 3: Well, the fact that it was in Dubai, it was 308 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: amusing to a lot of people and led by an 309 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 3: oil chic, led a lot of people to believe that 310 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 3: this was going to be an absolute farce of nothing, 311 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 3: and it wasn't. So yeah, I mean, so some credit 312 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 3: to the hosts. They held it together, and there's a 313 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: lot of fighting and you know, the usual last minute 314 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 3: everybody's sweating, staying up all night, but it did produce 315 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: something in the end war than expected. The really hilarious 316 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 3: thing is next time around, they're having it in Azerbaijan, 317 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: another giant oil producing country. 318 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: So but the reason they're doing that again, I don't 319 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: want to defend anyone's ever, certainly not oil producers. But 320 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: the reason why they're doing that is because they are 321 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: members of COP right and they alternate who who in 322 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: COP does it right? 323 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 3: It was supposed to be in Eastern Europe somewhere next, 324 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: but Russia vetoed all those ideas basically until they got 325 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: down to Azerbaijan. 326 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: But Russia is in COP too, right. It's sort of incredible. 327 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's supposed to be unanimous's supposed to be all 328 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 3: the countries of the world, and most of what they 329 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 3: do requires unanimity, which you know, that alone should tell everybody. 330 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: It's a miracle that anything ever comes out of these meetings. 331 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 3: You know, trying to get the world's in almost two 332 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 3: hundred countries to agree on anything is wild. So it's 333 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's impressive that they've moved as far 334 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 3: as they have. 335 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Can we talk about methane. 336 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 3: Lots of people talking about methane these days. 337 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: Give me the real skinny on methane. Is methane worse 338 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: than CO two? 339 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 3: Well, it just all depends on how you measure. CO 340 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 3: two is much more consequential in the long term, but 341 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 3: methane is a more active trapping of heat in the 342 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 3: short term. So, in other words, if you want to 343 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: reduce the impacts of climate change the short term impacts, 344 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 3: methane is your short term lever, right, You got to 345 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 3: pull the CO two lever to reduce the problem in 346 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 3: the long term, the overall problem. But one way to 347 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 3: have a relatively short term immediate effect is ratcheting down methane. 348 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: That gets you a pretty quick reduction in warming. 349 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: Something is clearly very fucking off, right, Because it's sixty 350 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: degrees in New York City in December. I'm fucking forty 351 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: five years old, so I remember winters when it's snowed 352 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: and was below forty. So explain to me what the 353 00:19:58,760 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: fuck is happening. 354 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 3: This is the problem with climate change? Is this the 355 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 3: real political problem with climate change because the amount that 356 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: it's changed already, there's nothing on the table that can 357 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 3: undo that. For all intents and purposes, that's a permanent change. 358 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 3: There's some chance that as we peak and reduce emissions 359 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 3: and then go negative emissions that on some time horizon 360 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: we could begin to pull temperatures back down, like maybe 361 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 3: in a century or something like that or two. But 362 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 3: for our purposes, you know, people alive today, the changes 363 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 3: are permanent. So when you ask people to work hard 364 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 3: and make sacrifices on behalf of climate, what you're really 365 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 3: asking them is not make this better. What you're asking 366 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 3: them is prevent this from getting even worse than it 367 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 3: otherwise would have, which is like a terrible political message, 368 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 3: you know, it's like a terrible way to motivate people. 369 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 3: So like, not only are the changes built in, but 370 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: further changes are built in. Like for us, the climate 371 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: is going to be warming all of our lives. That's 372 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 3: just a fact, no matter literally, no matter what we do. 373 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not good. The thing I am struck by 374 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: is that you really have to work hard to deny 375 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: climate change. At this point, it is sixty degrees in 376 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: New York City in December. It is not supposed to 377 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: be the same temperature in LA that it is in 378 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: New York. Like that is fucking not normal. And I 379 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: think that, like the people who are not being paid 380 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: to deny climate change, see what's happening. 381 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 3: I wish that word true, but I mean, I feel 382 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: like one thing we've learned in politics, especially these last 383 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 3: ten years, is like there is no amount of empirical 384 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 3: evidence sufficient to change people's identities and ideologies, you know 385 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 3: what I mean that there's no pile of empirical evidence 386 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: too big to ignore if you want to ignore it, right. 387 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny like some of the sort of Republicans, 388 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 3: sort of the official moderate Republicans are just around now 389 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 3: as solutions to climate change. They've moved beyond denial and 390 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 3: they're impeding action in other ways. But down in the 391 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 3: grass roots, down in the MAGA grass roots, it's still 392 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: old school, full on a head in the sand denialism. 393 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: It hasn't changed at all of anything. Outright Denihalism is 394 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: sort of catching on because it's all just part of 395 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: their sort of tribal identity. It's a cultish and anyone 396 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 3: who's ever dealt with a cult can tell you, like 397 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 3: you can send them all the citations you want. You 398 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 3: know what I mean, like highlight the passages, underlining the 399 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 3: right passages, it doesn't matter, like they are what they are, 400 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 3: but they don't matter anymore. I mean, as evidenced by 401 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 3: the fact I think that the entire world is gathering 402 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 3: and acknowledging this and working on this, like the train 403 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 3: has left the station. It's just like, how big of 404 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 3: an impediment is the US going to be versus a help? 405 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: Is the real question? 406 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: Like my husband said this thing to me, which I 407 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: thought was interesting that he read that the countries where 408 00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: climate change denialism is the worst are country is with 409 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: a lot of oil, and they're largely the United States 410 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia. 411 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing that people need to wrap their heads 412 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 3: around is that it's a relatively small handful of countries 413 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 3: producing oil. The vast majority of the world's nations are 414 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 3: oil imporders, and so oil is just like getting off 415 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 3: of oil would be nothing but a boon for all 416 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 3: of those countries. Right, It's a relatively small handful of 417 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 3: extremely powerful countries that are going to get hung up 418 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 3: on those But this, yes, it shows you that that 419 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 3: when you have powerful interests, you can make up reasons 420 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 3: to believe what you need to believe when you have 421 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 3: an incentive to do so, right, I mean, humans are 422 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 3: very very good at them. 423 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: But I also feel like the larger sort of override 424 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: is that propaganda works. 425 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 3: Yes, it absolutely works. But the only offsetting thing I'd say, 426 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 3: and I really like my only source of optimism these days, 427 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 3: if I'm being honest, is that the technologies to produce 428 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 3: energy from sun and when renewable, to produce to produce 429 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 3: energy without carbon emissions are cheap and getting cheaper, and 430 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 3: ultimately physics will out like people will go to the 431 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 3: thing that works better and is cleaner, and is cheaper 432 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 3: and is easier to finance, and is easier to build 433 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 3: and faster to build, et cetera, et cetera. So that 434 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 3: hide is unstoppable. So you know, propaganda can can make 435 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: people believe all kinds of crazy things, but there are 436 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 3: some sort of forces that it can't push back. And 437 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 3: at this point, this is something I say all the time, 438 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 3: Like when everything was fossil fuels, It's like a fish 439 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: in water, right, you can't really assess the quality of 440 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 3: the water. You don't know anything else. But now that 441 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 3: there are alternatives, it's just becoming clearer and clear to 442 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 3: people the longer they think about it. While fossil fuels 443 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 3: are a crappy deal in a lot of ways that 444 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 3: were just invisible because they were ubiquitous. But if we 445 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 3: have a choice, then why would we do it this way? Right? 446 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 3: And just that's an unstoppable tide rolling across the earth, Like, 447 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: it's just faster and cheaper to do things cleanly, so 448 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 3: it serves no one's interests, but powerful fossil fuel incumbents 449 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 3: to slow this thing down, it will benefit everyone else. 450 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, give me like two more things. What are you 451 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:22,479 Speaker 1: excited about? 452 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 3: I'm excited about all kinds of things. I mean, the 453 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 3: real interesting phenomenon over the last ten years, Like the 454 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: first ten years I covered this thing, everything was about 455 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 3: climate basically because solutions were obscure or very expensive or 456 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 3: in the lab or no one had even dreamed them up. 457 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 3: Yet no one knew them at all, So it was 458 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 3: a very abstract, very political, very sort of ideological yelling 459 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: back and forth about climate. But now the world has 460 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: turned its energies in earnest to finding solutions to these things. 461 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 3: And so now it's just become a big puzzle, like 462 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 3: how do we replace this piece? How do we replace 463 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 3: this piece? How do we replace this piece? And all 464 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 3: these swarms and swarms of clever people are descending on 465 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 3: these problems one at a time and coming up with 466 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 3: clever solutions to things that just a few years ago 467 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 3: we would have said we're either impossible or very difficult 468 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 3: to decarbonize. Now people are cracking those things. Like we 469 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 3: have a whole set of sectors that used to be 470 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 3: called not very long ago, difficult to decarbonize, right, things 471 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 3: like cement and steel. But now like every time I 472 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: turn on my computer, I hear about a new team 473 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 3: and a lab somewhere or a new startup somewhere that's 474 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 3: coming up with some new clever solutions. So we're going 475 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 3: to solve cement, We're going to solve steel, We're going 476 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 3: to solve shipping, you know, we're going to solve cars, 477 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 3: we're going to solve heating. Like, piece by piece is 478 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: all coming together, and just on an intellectual level, watching 479 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 3: that puzzle be solved in real time is just fascinating. 480 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 3: It's just intellectually fascinating watching this happen It's so much 481 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 3: more concrete than these sort of sloganeering about climate back 482 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 3: and forth, you know what I mean. It's just so 483 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: much more tangible to be involved, people like, Okay, like 484 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 3: we need to replace this molecule with this molecule, How 485 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 3: do we do it? You know, it's just so much 486 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 3: more you can wrap your hands around it. 487 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: I feel like you're not totally despairing. And I don't 488 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: even know what to make of having a climate guest 489 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: who is not totally despairing. You sound like Mac Greenfield, 490 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: my long suffering spouse, who's like, technology can solve a 491 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: lot of these problems, and I'm always like, no, they can't. 492 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: The lesson is this was always going to be less 493 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 3: difficult technologically than we thought in advance. And I feel 494 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 3: like that's true. Like throughout human history we're like, oh, 495 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 3: this problem looks big and insoluble, and like once you 496 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 3: get in dig in around now you find technological solutions. 497 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 3: It's not technology that was ever going to be the problem, right, 498 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: it's politics and politics are always the opposite. They're always 499 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 3: more difficult than you think they're going to be. They're 500 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 3: always slower. So that's I mean, if you want me 501 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 3: to unleash some despair. We can just talk about politics 502 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 3: for a while. I've got but I've got plenty. 503 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: No, no, no, I have enough despair for both of us. 504 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 3: The technology makes me happy, and all it is now 505 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 3: is doing the political and social fighting and thinking and 506 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 3: reforming necessary to put those technologies out in the field. 507 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 3: That's the job now. It's not an easy job, like 508 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 3: there's going to be no sector that's easy to decarbonize politically, 509 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 3: They're all going to be a fight. And people think like, oh, 510 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 3: we just have to overcome oil companies, but no, like 511 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 3: big beef. I mean, the fight against big beef is 512 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 3: going to make the fight against oil look like Patty Gigs, 513 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 3: I think. And then there's the whole sprawl complex in 514 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 3: the US and somewhat in other countries too, just highways, 515 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: strip walls, big commercial developers, all of them are going 516 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 3: to be a fight. You run your society on fossil 517 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: fuels for a couple hundred years, you end up with 518 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 3: a lot of incumbents, a lot of powerful forces clinging 519 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,479 Speaker 3: to them. So it's just going to be battle after battle. 520 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 3: There's never going to be a like crest the Hill 521 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 3: and coast It's going to be a fight for all 522 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 3: of our lives, but the technology is making that fight much, much, 523 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 3: much much easier. 524 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So interesting, David Roberts. 525 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 2: I hope you'll come back. 526 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 3: I would love to. 527 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 528 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds 529 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 530 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 531 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.