WEBVTT - How to (Not) Unionize McDonalds 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:11.360 It could happen here. It's the show where we hate McDonald's. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.160 I'm your host, be a long professional McDonald's haater, and 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.560 with me to talk about hating McDonald's is Mira, who's 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.520 a freelance journalist. And you need an organizer. Miro, Welcome 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:24.000 to the show. 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:26.520 It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.560 Yeah, so okay, So specifically, there are lots of the 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:35.080 hating McDonald's is like an ancient anarchist tradition. I think 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.120 I'm actually not sure how well it is known today, 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.559 but I'm about eighty percent sure that the tradition of 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.320 breaking Starbucks windows was actually originally like a it was 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.000 actually originally a thing about breaking like it came from 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:50.640 like a bunch of campaigns. I think it definitely in France. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.840 I think also in Mexico that like anytime a Starbucks, Starbucks, 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.600 Jesus Christ, anytiving McDonald's would open up, everyone would immediately 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:58.200 start breaking the windows. 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.960 That's the only proper way to handle on McDonald's. And yeah, 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:03.720 professional opinion. 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.080 But the reason we're talking about McDonald's is that, Yeah, 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.200 you tried to organize a McDonald's union, which is I 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.039 guess the other thing you could do with the McDonald's 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:19.480 other than lighting it on fire, which is it you could? Oh, 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.399 I guess, I guess there are those people in France 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.000 who took it over and turned it into like a 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:24.240 food co op or something. 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.679 But a third thing you can do with. 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.440 It, discovered a third A third thing to do with 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:34.280 the McDonald's. Let's get the towers. Yeah, but uh, yeah, 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:39.360 I wanted to talk about I guess what you know, Okay, 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.680 I wanted to use Yeah, so you you've written a 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.080 very good piece about this in strange matters, uh called 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.360 my Mcunion that is really good, and I wanted to 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.600 talk about sort of the piece, the sort of nitty 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.279 gritty aspect of like what it's like to organize a union, 0:01:54.920 --> 0:02:01.800 and also just about McDonald's because Jesus Christ, good Lord, no, I. 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.680 Have so much to talk about, so more than happy too. 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:07.880 Yeah, So I guess, okay, I think I think we 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.840 should start with just the sort of McDonald's miss of 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.680 it all. I wanted to start with just talking a 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.200 bit about what it's actually like to work on a 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:22.040 McDonald's because I, well, okay, a, I feel like it's 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.560 not actually universal experience anymore for like people who have 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.840 worked at a fast food restaurant and b I think 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.800 people who it's it's a thing you blought out of 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:38.080 your collective memory very quickly because it sucked. But yeah, yeah, okay, 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.600 so what is it actually like when you show up 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:41.239 to your shift. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.040 So McDonald's was my first job, and it was a 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.600 hell of an introduction. Yes, the moment you would come in, 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:54.880 you would be most days bombarded with constant orders on 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.680 the screen because they had these little screens both in 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.560 the front and back drill area that like showed all 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.760 the orders they had. And like a good sixty seventy 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.440 percent of the time I came in, people would just 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.080 be swamped with orders. They'd be running around being like, oh, 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:13.960 thank god you hear. We need someone to get on 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:15.800 right now. And it's like you don't even get a 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.840 moment to breathe. Like, as you're standing there waiting to 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.560 clock in on their punching machine, you're just like, oh, 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.960 dear God, I'm gonna have a fucking terrible time. And 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.800 as you're running around, you know, cooking everything after you 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.440 clock in, you're getting streamed at by your bosses right 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.960 by you because they're like, oh no, a customer complained 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:39.880 because there was too many pickles on their sandwich, And 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.920 then you'll hear someone yelling from the drive through window 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.640 on top of that, and then you might have people 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.240 at the front counter. This was before proven, so McDonald's 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.480 still had front counters when people would come in. I 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.200 don't know if every McDonald's does, but everyone I've been 0:03:55.240 --> 0:04:00.320 to since has just closed down internally. And I envied that. 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.160 But you would have people yelling from there, and if 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.160 you were one of the unfortunate souls who ended up 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.880 working directly facing the customers and not just cooking, you 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.240 would be the one getting screamed at by all parties involved. 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.880 I later worked at a Windy's where I got a 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.799 taste of that, and I walked out three days into March. 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:24.920 Yeah. 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:26.640 Stuff sucks. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.599 Yeah, And I think that, you know, I think like 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.240 one of the things I think like compounds this is, 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.080 you know, okay, I will, I will, I will, I 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.360 will do a theory, which is that I think people 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:46.640 have a really weird understanding of what it means to 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.640 have a job on a sort of theoretical level that 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:53.400 dates back to a genuinely, very weird period in the 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:58.080 twentieth century where people actually had like stable hours. Yeah, 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.000 and that's just not how any of this works, right, 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.800 Like you know, you like, there is no actual stable 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.240 amount of hours. You just get you get some number 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.760 of hours like a week that you're assigned to. But 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:11.080 then you know, but this these least to do a 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.239 thing that we've out god like, like literally every single 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.680 field we've talked about unidizing has this problem, which is 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.400 just understaffing, because why the fuck would you have enough 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:22.000 people to do a job? Would you could have less 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.640 than enough people to do a job and pave them less. 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.200 That That was my experience on McDonald and fast food 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.120 in general. You would get such inconsistent numbers of hours 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.400 that you wouldn't know how much money you'd be making 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.240 in the month, because, for all you know, this month, 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.560 you could be working you know, every regular day, every 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.280 business day of the week. You could be working only weekends, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.240 or you could be like I was after the union 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:56.599 got busted spoiler alert, uh, working three hours on Sundays 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.880 in the mornings. And that's it if they really wanted to. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.680 And there's nothing that outside of a union you can 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.120 do to prevent them from and outside of you know 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.760 niche legal areas where you can maybe push back, you 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:13.760 can't really do much if they decide just not to 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:19.440 staff you. And there is people working there who they 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.640 had like full blown kids, families relying on them in 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.719 that job. They weren't making much Pennsylvania, butimum wage was 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.039 seven twenty five and you know they were paying us that. Yeah, 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.520 and so from what little they could get, they would 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.919 maybe get like at best a one hundred bucks a 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.640 week with their hours, unless they were able to get 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.760 into like a managerial position where it's the only one 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.200 where you'd be kind of guaranteed ours in the sense 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.080 that they desperately need you so they'll throw you on whatever. 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.400 Beyond that, it's you also don't know the days you're 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:54.800 going to work too. Yeah. 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.680 Yeah, This thing I was gonna ask is like, what, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.040 like how how much time do you have between finding 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.720 out you're going to be on a shift and then 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:04.040 like being on the shift. 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:11.360 You can have anywhere from several days notice to under 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:16.080 twelve hours notice, And there is no way to predict 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:17.680 what's going to happen the next week. Is it all 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.000 depends on when you're going to get staffed. There were 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:26.040 points I found out day out when I was going 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:27.000 to be working. 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.560 Jesus Christ. Yeah yeah, and like this, I mean, this 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.360 is the thing that like is becoming. This is the 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.640 way that labor used to work in like the eighteen hundreds, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.240 and then you know, it was just sort of like 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.960 phased out because it turns out this is actually a 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:50.320 stunningly inefficient way to actually like like run a business. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.960 But you know, we've reached the thing that happened at 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.080 the end of history. Is it's not the history ended, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.400 it's that like capital needing to be efficient end and 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:03.800 now they just like do this shit and it's like, well, okay, 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:05.800 so it doesn't matter if this is like a terribly 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.440 an efficient way to run things. It's you just like 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:11.880 it's it's it's it's a mechanism designed to just like 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:17.040 absolutely destroyed like the sort of psyches and lives of 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.080 the people who are doing the thing. 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:25.000 Yeah, that is completely accurate. They do not give a 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.920 rat's ass about anyone working there. For a second. Everyone 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.840 working there is completely expendable, even if they're a manager. 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.000 There's been points people have worked there for like three 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.280 four months and got promoted to a manager. There's everyone 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.760 is expendable, and they they make sure you know that too, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:50.120 and how they treat you, You're not treated with any dignity, 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:55.079 with any respect. You're just completely thrown around at their 0:08:55.120 --> 0:09:00.160 whims and the whims of upper management, you know, the 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:07.040 the regional managers and the like. And it's it's awful 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.280 because how they get away with that model is they 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.160 know there's always going to be some people who are 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.760 desperate to work at McDonald's, either because they're young and 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:24.760 need to get a first job, or they're down on 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.079 their luck and need to get something to pay the bills. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:35.200 I've even hitting hard times trying to reapply at McDonald's 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.439 since working there because I needed to pay the bill. 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:45.200 I was in that exact position again and fairly recently, 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:50.400 and so it's it's not a fun place to be, 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.319 to put it mildly, Yeah, of course they didn't let 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.840 me work there again because I believe I'm banned from 0:09:57.840 --> 0:09:59.240 ever working at a McDonald's again. 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.960 That's a That's another thing that I think is not 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.760 that well understood, like loss of companies just have basically 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.720 not even like there are there are people that I 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:13.160 know who are blacklisted, like from shit they did dream 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:18.360 occupy like people like, yeah, like like that they're these 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.920 these things, these things suck and if you like, you know, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.800 this is I guess one of the sort of issues 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:26.600 of doing any kind of organizing is that like if 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.800 you lose, like stuff can go like very badly for you, 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.120 which sucks. But also simultaneously, if you don't organize things 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.720 we go very badly for you. So it's you know, 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.400 so it's a double or yeah, yeah, I guess just 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.280 one everything I wanted to ask, which I don't know, 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.080 if you know do you do you know if you're 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.360 if you're uh, if your McDonald's was a franchise, if 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.839 it was like actually owned by the company. 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.480 So yes, it was a franchise. It wasn't don by 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:01.680 like the official company in any major sense. I actually 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.600 met the franchise owner during the course of the union, 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.840 which was a fun time when we were in the 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.600 process of getting busted. Oh boy. 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.880 Yeah, So do you want to explain what a franchise is? 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.720 And I guess, like how that sort of model works. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:26.079 Yeah, So most McDonald's out there are franchises, which basically 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:32.120 means McDonald's will kind of let independent people buy out 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.840 their stores and own and manage them in a certain region. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:44.000 For a portion of the profits in the Scranton area, 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:49.400 which was where I did the union, they were all 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:55.520 owned by one single family who was ultra rich, in 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:57.719 part because of the McDonald's and in part because of 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:08.120 family inheritances, and these folks they would be the kind 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.760 of be treated as like the head Honchow's, the same 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.120 way that CEOs get talked about at most companies. They 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.840 weren't the CEOs, of course, but like as far as 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.240 in terms of managing greets, rant and area McDonald's went, 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.920 they were the main ones in charge. Of course McDonald's 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:29.679 corporate always have the final say over everything, but they 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.560 manage tens of thousands of restaurants across the world, so 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.760 they don't really get involved in any of the nitty gritty, 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:40.040 which is why they kind of let people own these franchises. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.760 Yeah, which I think is really interesting. It's like they've 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.360 managed to somehow combine it like the worst aspects of 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.680 working for a major corporation with the worst aspects of 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:53.320 working for like a small business tyrant. Which it's interesting 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.200 too because it's like, I don't know, this is like 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.480 one of the weird things about McDonald because like McDonald's, 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.760 McDonald's Corporate doesn't make money from hamburgers. They're basically a 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:07.800 real estate company that like sells franchises to people, but simultaneous. 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.160 But that means that like they can do things, like 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.640 they can force their franchises to do things that are 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.720 like unprofitable because it doesn't matter to them, Like there's 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.959 they're still getting paid, Like they're still getting paid there 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:24.480 like licensing, like franchising fees or whatever, like no matter 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.679 what sort of like shit is happening there. Yeah, And 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.480 that's I don't know, it's it strikes me. It's like 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.319 a really interesting It strikes me as like the exact 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.760 arrangement that's like the most likely to create a fascist, 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.560 just like because like you know, you have a group 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.160 of people like and I think I think it's a 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.640 good agm with this. This is what like quote unquote 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.240 economic anxiety is. Is you have like a you have 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.120 like you have a sort of middle level of like this, 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:50.640 you know, the middle level of person who is a 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.120 capitalist but is also getting squeezed from the top down 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.559 like by a by larger corporations and then also is 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.079 facing bought about pressure from workers, and so their solution 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.800 to this is just like ruthlessly, like you know, just 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:08.000 just like ruthlessly do a fascism against like everyone who's 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:09.520 working for them. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.680 Yeah, scratch a liberal and the fascist reads. 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:14.840 Yeah, it's a more. 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:19.440 True than McDonald's and fast food really than anywhere. Yeah, 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.120 the mcfascists reign supreme. Ah. 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:29.720 So speaking of mcfascists, Uh, the products and services these 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.040 are too. These are two distinct sentences. They are not related. 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.800 Uh FCC please, actually, no, fuck you. The SCC doesn't 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.640 well no, no, the SCC. The SCC does not regulate us. 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.400 I think we're actually regulated by the FTC. So fuck 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.120 the SEC. That's why I could swear on this podcast 0:14:47.160 --> 0:15:03.320 because they don't recomplain us. And we're back. Okay. So, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.080 having having returned to more mcfascism, Yeah, okay, so I 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.600 guess we should start talking about how the union organizing 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:17.680 started and how I guess the sort of immediate mistake 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.240 that y'all made attempting to get this, to get this 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:21.920 off the ground. 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:27.760 Yeah, So it started with me. I was the first 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.760 one there to bring up the concept of reunion because 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.520 then I was like only seventeen, I was new to 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:42.120 anarchism still, and so I was young, green, and eager 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:50.480 to get shit done. I still am all the above, Yeah, 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:58.520 but I had a few contacts to local IWW people 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:03.640 through just the very very faint activist networks that were 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.640 up there, and by faint, I mean a total of 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:14.800 like five people. So I got in contact with the 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:21.920 IWW guy I believe. I used the name Mark. Yes, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.200 I used the name Mark in the article to protect 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:29.440 his anonymity, so I'll just keep consistency. And Mark was 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:36.240 the one who convinced me to take more major steps. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.000 He was the one who I talked to and got 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.120 consultation about it, and he was the one who gave 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.640 all that initial guidance. And there was a few friends 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:52.680 of mine I had there there also, not really anarchists. 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.280 Most of them were just like your soci dems, but 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.440 they were They were eager to get something done and 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.720 help out, so you know, can't complain there. And it 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.120 was like a small core group of us who all 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.720 wanted to get involved and get this out and done. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:14.640 And we had never done anything like this before. Northeast 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:19.760 Pennsylvania does have a strong history of unions there, but 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:28.240 we were not part of that history initially, and so 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:39.440 it ended up going south unfortunately. Pretty it went well 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:44.480 at first, but I think some of the main issues 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:51.040 we had in hindsight doing things, especially now having more 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:58.119 experience in organizing under my belt, in hindsight, we rushed 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:05.560 things way too much. We were trying to get everyone 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.040 on board. We didn't do sufficient one on one conversations 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:17.000 with people, We didn't do sufficient intel gathering, and we 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:21.120 didn't we relied too much on our technical tools and 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.680 left too much incriminating evidence that we trusted too many 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:29.359 people with. We didn't really have a strong way of 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.679 going about it that would have been better for what 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:33.359 we were doing. 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:35.760 Yeah, and I guess this comes to one and I 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.120 think of the main things that you're talking about here, 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.080 and I think is one of the main things about 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.000 you know, union organizing that like, like pretty much no 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:50.320 matter who you talk to wright politically, the the things 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.760 that are important to get a union to work are 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:57.240 kind of similar, which is that, Yeah, Like it's usually 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.000 a very slow process. It's a process of building relationships, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.640 and it's a process of figuring out who in your work, well, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.000 who in your workplays people sort of trust and respect 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.240 and like make friends with and figuring out how to 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:13.000 sort of how to get them involved in how to 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.639 get I don't know how how unions are not just 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:19.840 sort of like abstract things like they're they're they're they're 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.479 built of actuals, like social relationships that you have with 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.639 another person and another and other gifts and in the 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.760 relationships that they have with other people, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, Yeah, 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.560 I wanted to ask about how, how okay, when when 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.080 when you were sort of starting to do this right, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.560 how how were you sort of identifying the people you 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.000 needed to talk to and what kinds of things were 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.040 you doing to try to get them involved and try 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.720 to like map out how the workplace functioned. 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:53.000 So the first people identify for people that I thought 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.159 I could trust, and the core group of people I 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.920 had were folk that in regards to the union, I 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.320 in hindsight was able to trust. We all agreed on 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.000 the same issues, and we all had the kind of 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.320 a similar more gung ho attitude. I think me definitely 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.480 the most out of everyone. We fell into a pitfall 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.160 where I was kind of pushing the union by myself 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:19.359 for a bit, which is definitely easy to fall into. Yeah, 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:25.520 but we in terms of identifying the workplace leaders, the 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:30.959 natural leaders found there, we mostly relied on conversations with 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.880 Mark to do that. We talked with him about who 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.679 worked there. We gave a brief list of everyone who 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.679 worked there, and we kind of just pinpointed them the 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.760 specific people we saw as leaders and left spent that 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.879 And I mean, as far as basic charting goes, it 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.760 wasn't terrible, but there is definitely a lot to be 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:54.760 desired and it could have been far more fleshed out. 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.159 What do you think that would have looked like? Or 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:58.480 you know, what does it look like in sort of 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.280 like other campaigns that you've run that were like the 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.400 first one you ever tried to do at seventeen. 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.760 So charting as I would do it now, it should 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.800 be done from the start before even approaching the first 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:17.960 person unless you extremely trust the person, like you are 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.920 just bonded for life. You know, you can't go without 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.560 them unless you have like really deep trust with the person. Initially, 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.720 you shouldn't approach anyone but you going into it. You 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:33.080 should start off with if you can reaching out to 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.800 an IWW rep. But if you can't make a detailed 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:41.359 chart of who's in your workplace, what positions they're at, 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.120 what team they're on, Like in terms of if they're 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:53.440 on one person's managed area or another person's managed area, 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.400 you should should figure out who they're close to, who 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:02.320 they listen to, live in demographic information because you want 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:07.399 your unions to be intersextional, and you want to be 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:12.159 able to figure out above all else, whether or not 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:16.160 you've had away from work one on one with them, 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:21.520 and whether or not you've had any talks with them 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.800 prior about unions and where they might stand on unions. 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.720 You want to document all that and it doesn't have 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:29.879 to be the most detail. You can just do a 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.680 spreadsheet with it, but it can definitely be a lot 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:38.200 to document. And it's it's no joke. It's not something 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.679 that should be rushed. It's not fun. I you know, 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.879 there's there's nothing really that's a blast about trying to 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:48.640 sit there and be like, ah, yes, let me fill 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:54.680 out paperwork about my workplace employees. But it will come 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.920 back and save you so many times and give help 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:03.920 you formulate strategies for going word and we we rush 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:06.840 things and talk did things like talking to people on 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:09.280 the workplace floor and just said, hey, do you want 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:11.760 to do a union yeah, and call that a day 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:16.320 and said that was one on one and it wasn't. 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.200 Yeah, should we explain what one on one like is 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:19.840 supposed to be? 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:26.199 Yeah, So one on one is. It doesn't necessarily have 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:28.000 to be on one on one, but it should be 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:35.520 between at least a union organizer and another person. It 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:40.560 could potentially be another more seasoned organizer helping be a 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:44.160 more noviced one along with during the one on one. 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:50.040 That could be a thing, but ideally they are just 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:56.359 one or two organizers talking to one workplace employee about 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:04.240 initially anyway noncommittal discussion on where what their issues are 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:10.120 in the workplace, what griefances they might have, and what 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.920 their current stances on workplace organizing. 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:16.960 Yeah, okay. Another thing I wanted to sort of get 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:21.560 into is the role of like having having a way 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:23.760 to talk to people outside of work and having just 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:26.800 sort of a collaborative space where people talk about and 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:29.040 I think this is something that like I don't know, 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:31.320 I think this is you know, this is one of 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:33.359 the big things. I think that that this is one 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:36.199 of the big things that's changed in the past, you know, 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:41.240 maybe like decade and a half or so is that 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:44.280 how like the the the actual space in which people 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:47.280 talk about a union like tends on to be a 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.040 physical space anymore. It tends to be sort of either 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.280 like a signal chat or like a Facebook chat, like 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:58.119 a I guess what'sapp technically is owned by Facebook. But yeah, 0:24:58.160 --> 0:24:59.920 and so yeah, I want to talk a bit about that, 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:02.359 and also I guess get into the sort of security 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:08.720 problems that you can have with this, because yeah, yeah, so. 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:12.439 That's what we did. We had a group chat on 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.960 Facebook Messenger to talk to everyone about the union and 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:20.879 everything like that. And there's a lot of pros to 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:24.240 having a centralized group chat, don't get me grown. It 0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:26.320