WEBVTT - Bioregionalism Ft. Saint Andrew 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:10.799 Could it happen here? It maybe? I Robert Evans, host 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:16.400 of this podcast, UM to introduce this today's episode, which 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:23.400 is not my episode, it's it's Andrew's, uh episode. So 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:26.720 how how are you doing? Andrew? How do you in 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.360 that introduction? I'm good. I think it's um could use 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.800 some work, but you know, well shop it. Yeah. We 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.120 we never workshop anything. We just we just roll right ahead. UM, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:41.280 so abolish that. Abolish introductions. You know, start in the middle. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.839 Why don't we just do that now in media res podcast? Yeah, 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:48.000 we'll make every podcast like Finnigan's Wake, where the opening 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.720 of the podcast is like halfway through a paragraph that 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:52.800 the end of the paragraphs or at the end of 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:56.040 the episode starts every everything will be a circle. Let's 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:01.560 just Sophie. I think that's the new plan. Okay, okay, Andrews, 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.080 what do you guy for us today? Right? So, today 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:10.240 I wanted to talk about bioregions and bioregionalism. It's uh 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:17.280 philosophy slash movement slash way of viewing things. There's a lot. 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.840 So today we'll be exploring what it is, where it 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.760 came from, and the role I see it playing in 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:28.560 our strides towards anarchy. But first, of course we'll really 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:32.800 gets some context bioregionalism. Have any of you heard of it? 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:40.200 By the way, I have heard the tournament right right, 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:47.119 So it's actually pretty recent, um, all things considered. UM. 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.360 It was coined as a term by a guy named 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.720 Alan Van Newkirk, found of the Institute for Bioregional Research, 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.040 and as a movement it really gained a lot of 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.840 popularity in the late seventy is in the Osaks, Appalachia, 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.600 Hudson River, and San Francisco Bay Area regions. UM. They 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:13.720 had a conference in a prairie, interestingly enough, their Kansas City, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:18.120 and they've also had conferences in the Squamish bioregion of 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.160 British Columbia as well as the Gulf of main By 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.800 region on the Atlantic. And of course with all these 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.760 different people coming together sharing all their different ideas talking 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.760 about cool nature stuff, they developed us sort of a 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.640 platform which they outline in papers on subjects changing from 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:43.400 agriculture to forestry, to arts, economics to community. So while 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:48.240 it was a very North American focused movement and philosophy 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.200 at first, it has also expanded to Europe and Australia 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.480 and these groups, they are hundreds of them all over. Um. 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.560 They get involved with local ecological work like preservation and restoration, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.480 cumic culture or that. And they also form networks so 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.320 they would link on specific issues like water conservation or 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:12.680 organic farming or cheap planting. And of course bioreginal groups 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.520 also get involved in attempts to make communities more self 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:21.160 sufficient by mapping and utilizing local assets and well, as 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:25.320 you come to see, um, bioregionalism and maps kind of 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.280 go hand in hand away, um, because it really is 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.400 about that sort of big picture looking at the earth 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.960 and the environment and outplace in it. So what is 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.760 bioregionalism exactly? In essence, it's a philosophy based around the 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:47.600 organization of political, cultural, and economic systems around naturally defined 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:53.520 areas called bioregions sort of bioregions. There are areas defined 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:58.480 through physical and environmental features, including watershed boundaries, soil and 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:06.680 terrain characteristics, flora, fauna, and climate. Bioregionalism also stresses the 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.720 determination of a bioregion is a cultural phenomenon and emphasizes 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:18.600 local populations, local knowledge, and local solutions. Because humans are 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:23.760 actually surprisingly part of nature, our cultures or settlements. They 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.440 arise from nature, They arise from the characteristics of the 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:31.000 bio regions that we inhabit. So I mean that to 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.640 me is a clear duty and bioregionalism and landmack. And 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.279 it also points to me, um, the fact that while 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:44.800 bioregionalism maybe a fairly recent philosophy starsh movement, its roots 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:49.040 and the ideas it presents are nothing new, you know, Um. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:53.240 I mean bioregionalism posits that, you know, human societies must 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.440 learn to honor our bioregions and the connections between them 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.160 if we have to be ecologically sound. And this was 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.359 an active is really old news, you know, for the 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.679 indigenous peoples who have maintained these lands and been stewards 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.760 of these lands for thousands of years. I think that 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:16.240 thinking in a bioregional scale allows us to establish regenerative 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:21.920 and circular economies, effectively restore local ecosystems, restructure our systems 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:26.320 using ecological design principles, and of course deepen our cultural 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:32.640 connections to the land inhabit. So that to me really 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:42.320 stresses the importance of bioregionalism in our approach to environmental issues. 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.560 Before I continue, I just wanted to say that for 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.200 those who want to like visualize, because I know this 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.720 is a podcast, you can only hear my voice. Um 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.680 One Earth has a pretty decent map of bio regions 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.279 on their website, so you could just google bio regions 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:05.200 and it should come up. They basically have like bio 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.479 regions on their map, and well, according to that map, 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:13.920 trend that is part of bio region anti NT standing 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:18.000 for neotropic and E standing for the East, and tadas 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:26.280 grouped with South America and particularly the Venezuela Guyana's region 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.159 for obvious reasons being that the or no coup and 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.640 other rivers that come from the Amazon flew out to 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:46.760 you know, trend ads shows really so clunky segue Um. 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.640 There are a couple of different concepts that one might 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.680 want to keep in mind when approaching or attempting to 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:02.440 curate a bio regional understanding of the world. Of course, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:07.960 perspective and a bioregional perspective is important, and it's basically 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:13.120 one that seeks to ensure that political boundaries match ecological boundaries, 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.640 highlighting the unique ecology of the bio region, encouraging the 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.240 consumption of local foods where possible, encouraging the use of 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.200 local materials where possible, and encouraging the cultivation of natsive 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:30.200 plans in the region. I will point out, like from now, 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.520 that's from what I've read about bioregionalism and the talks 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.920 that I've seen, there are definitely some you know, liberal sensibilities, 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:43.720 some capitalist realism um in the way that some bioregionalists 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:50.320 talk about, you know, things like organizing our politics and 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:56.360 our states and stuff around bio regions. Obviously, you know, 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.800 they are pushing things pretty far because they do talk about, 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:07.880 you know, going and really orienting our economy around you know, 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.120 bio regions and thinking in terms of that. But at 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.400 the same time, there's still like an almost passive acceptance 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.720 in some of the readings that I've seen of capitalism. 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:21.480 You know, I think that's pretty common in a lot 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:26.960 of what I like to call almost radical um ideas 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.520 and philosophies and stuff. Of Course, when I approached these 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.720 ideas and these philosophies and stuff, I always try to, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:39.040 you know, keep that anarchist analytical freework in my head, 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:46.200 understanding that you know, these ideas are still being filtered 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:51.280 through an ultimately like Campitus society and capitalist world, and 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.720 so you're gonna want to try to navigate that and 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.680 sift that out and really get the nuggets of gold 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.800 within these ideas. I don't see states, UM, and I 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.600 think you would agree with me being the path out 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:12.640 of you know, that's a climate catastrophe. UM. For those 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.720 who have been reading like you know, Against the Green 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:20.280 and you know Grieb's work, we know that states have 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:26.840 been pretty equalsider from their very inception. So I think 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.480 that if paroigionalism would be effective, I think it would 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.400 be best if it stayed away from that sort of 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:40.440 status um conception. They do emphasize localism UM as the 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:45.520 political localism, but it's always in the context of was 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.520 often within the context of like the relationship between the 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.360 local and the state and that sort of thing almost 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.960 like a kind of I don't know if I'm using 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.600 this to him correctly, but like monarchism, does that makes 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.160 sense some kind of was it some kind of like 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:09.559 municipalist almost something like that. But yeah, yeah, we should 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.439 probably talk a little bit about like what what manarchism 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.840 and municipalism are um, just so people don't get kind 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:22.240 of caught up on the terms UM, and particularly I 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.959 think that like within a context of like the United States, 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.240 UM municipalism is kind of an easier way to sell 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.320 folks who may be more conservative on certain anarchists principles. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.760 It's basically the idea of yea strong community sort of 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:43.640 control and autonomy UM, as opposed to uh, strong overarching 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.720 kind of federal or state control over over uh you know, 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.640 different communities. Yeah. Yeah, because menarchism is kind of like 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.679 a weird grab bag thing that's like it's it's it's 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:57.520 sort of like, Okay, so you want to be in 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.240 anarcho capitalist, but you can't because you're just smart enough 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.000 to realize that you can't have a proper right of 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.040 the state. So either the America state is the only 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:10.280 thing it does is enforced property rights. And yeah, I 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.200 think that's a slightly terrifying vision, but I think but 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:17.360 you know, it's it's yeah, it's a more self away 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:21.640 than the age. Yeah, but you know this is yeah, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:26.960 and I think that is less of a focus specifically 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.640 on property rights and more of more based out of 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:34.959 an understanding that UM like strong hierarchical federal or even 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:39.320 state level control UM generally winds up creating reach a 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.400 lot of a significant amount of like regional um uh, 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:47.400 what's the word I'm looking for, um inequalities um and 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.400 and is responsible for a lot of like ecological devastation 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.200 and whatnot. This idea that you can have, like like 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:54.640 one of the things that you would have with an 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.080 actual municipalist system is you wouldn't be allowed to operate 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.640 a company like Coke Industries that's abled who um you know, 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.360 be based out of I think Kentucky, um, but operate 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.360 a series of refineries in the Gulf Coast that render 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.880 large sections of that area uninhabitable because you would leave 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.880 kind of control over what can be actually done in 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:17.719 that area to the people who live there, rather than 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.000 being able to have um a corporation by land there 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.080 and have its right to pollute enforced by the state. Right. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.599 That's kind of like one little example. UM there's a 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.080 municipalists the system in northeast Syria and Rojava is is 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:34.480 sort of a municipalist system and one of the specifically libertarian. Yeah, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:40.440 I mean there's an distinction between like, well generally and yeah, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.440 we're we're getting into the weeds a little bit here, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.400 but these are these are like that's kind of the 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:46.320 basics of what those terms mean, just so that people 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.560 don't get lost when you when you bring them up, 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:50.840 because I think a lot of folks, um, you know, 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:56.600 don't have necessarily that kind of those definitions, don't just 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:00.320 pop up in their head when you use that word. Right, yeah, 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.960 fair enough. UM. I also mentioned that states have been 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.240 eco sidle from their inception, so I feel like I 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.360 should probably trying to find that as well. UM equal 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:19.439 side and ecosidal is um is basically UM this idea 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:24.080 that came out to the environmentalist movement um menttive points 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.120 to the survey harm to nature, the mass damage and 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:33.160 destruction of ecosystems that's you know, caused over decades by 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.160 you know these companies and really buy the system as 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:41.000 a whole. So it's often viewed through like a legal lens, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:45.040 as in, you know, these UM companies should be tried 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:51.600 for their crimes UM and as like for committing eco 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.959 side and that kind of thing, because it's it's often 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.880 viewed like as like a llegal like lawer should be 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.080 put in place to classify ecoside as a crime and 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.440 that sort of thing. UM. Only a few countries have 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:07.000 done that like actually quotified ecoside, but it is something 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:12.000 that um, so environmentalists pushed, you know, really raise awareness 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:25.640 as a crime against humanity and the planet. Yeah. I 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:27.880 think it's also kind of important understand with Equal Side 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.920 is that like there's a lot of focus I think 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.360 in like left like in fronmoutal movements just purely incorporations 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.520 and even if you go back to the companies memes 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.440 just like Hunter companies destroying the planets like well yeah, 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.320 like like half of the merse they don't. Yeah, and 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.680 so you know, yeah, this this is something like like 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:47.240 with the Equal Side, it's like yeah, it's like it's 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.760 not just corporations that do this. It's you know, it's 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.880 it's this the state as a structure. It's the state 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.600 as an institution. Is the state as exactly, Yes, it's 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.400 their agencies as they're sort of And that's that's what 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.680 I try to like what I realized this is kind 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:02.480 of important now and I guess it is kind of 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:09.320 like slowly like shifting away from bi rationalism, but that's fine. Um. 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.200 What I will say that I've tried to like consciously, 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:18.040 um sort of put into practice is emphasizing that like 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:23.600 capitalism is not the only issue, you know, um Like, 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.000 I those people like try to separate capitalism on the state, 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.280 as if they could ever truly be separated. Even people 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:35.840 who understand that, you know, aca capitalists are misguided and 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.720 that you know, the state is necessary to maintain capitalism, 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.840 there's some sort of like disconnect where there's like a 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:48.360 whole ton of you know, organization and meming and all 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:52.840 that about capitalism, and you know, oftentimes these sort of 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:57.600 efforts are like particularly with reformist types and unions and stuff, 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.400 they try to mediate with capitalism through real the state, 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:06.080 you know, through the government, look ree, local government or 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.040 federal government, whever the case and be. And what I 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.360 really tried to emphasize is that it's not enough to 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.920 have like a theory of capitalism. I think it's even 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.720 more important to have a theory of hierarchy because I 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.400 think it avoids it helps to avoid getting into these 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:28.360 sort of traps of like um well, class reductionism for one, 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:35.760 but also like recreating certain structures within your organizations and 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.840 in your efforts to change things, recreating the very you know, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:48.600 circumstances you're fighting against. You can't like condense everything into 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:53.000 one problem, because try as we might, it's not that 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:58.560 everything is one problem. It's an interconnected mesh that binds 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.600 all of our problems together. And you can focus on, 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.040 you know, really big extensions of that mesh, but it 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.040 still is kind of just a mesh. And the mesh 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.919 isn't the thing, but it connects to the edges of 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.800 all of the things. And yeah, that type of ecology 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:19.080 can be useful and even even relating to bioregions um 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.720 in terms of how they also connect with other territories 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:28.359 and entities. I think it also you know it this 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.200 is one of the sort of problems that you have 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.080 if you know, it's like, okay, so your plans it 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:35.960 takes sort of sovereign state power. It's like, well, you 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:37.480 do it, right, But I mean the thing is if 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.080 if you if you you know, you seez control of 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.399 power of a state, right, your borders are essentially just 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.800 like where the state's war machine ran out of steam, 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.920 and you know, and this this becomes a normal problem 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:49.960 because like I mean, if if you look at the 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.160 bioregional maps, right, it's like there's there's literally no way 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.280 you could ever have states with these borders because yeah, 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.160 it's not like this. It's it's it's impossible, like you 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.360 you cannot do it. And you know what that means 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.880 is that states are sort of necessarily going, well, they're 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:06.480 either going to be like a small fraction of a 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.359 bioregion or they have multiple in them. And that's another 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.600 sort of that becomes a sort of logistical problem because 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:14.399 you know, like if you want to look at like 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:19.159 a lot of the worst sort of ecological sort of 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.359 like human disasters, it's when you get states attempting to 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:29.440 apply like states environmental issues. Yeah. Yeah, it's more certifically 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.240 like it. It's it's you know, they have something that 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.520 like sort of works in one test environment and then 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.120 they broadly apply it across you know, an enormous sort 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.919 of variety of areas and regions to have their own 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.359 biospheres and have their own and that stuff. That's like 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.280 that's like the fastest way to kill an enormous number 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:48.200 of people. Yeah, just like it's like forcing a jigsaw 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.280 piece that obviously doesn't fit into a spot where you 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.879 want it to, but you're just breaking the pieces. I 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:56.880 want to say as well, that like that sort of 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.000 I mean, at least the states are testing it, right, Um, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.119 I remember I kind of remember the exact name of 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.560 like the the sort of like ideology or whatever. I 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.919 think it was like this Elie Soviet Union probably one 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.600 of your name, This Elie Soviet Union practice related to 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:17.399 like farming that they just applied over like a vast 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.359 fast region end up with like a huge decrease in 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.480 like food production. I can't remember the name of it. 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.440 Like Senku Oh yeah, yeah, he just had this, he 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.800 had this theory and it's just like puestionate and yeah, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.880 it led to some serious issues. Yeah, and I think 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:38.760 you know, if we're gonna talk like what's important about 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:43.439 sort of birationalism, it's you have to have if you're 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.360 going to implement anything, right. You know. It's especially when 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.080 you're trying to sort of manipulate biosphies, you're trying to 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.800 preserve a biospheares, you have to have local knowledge from 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:53.800 the people who have been living in these biospheres for 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.040 you know, enormous amounts of time. And that's something that 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.639 states are really bad at and you know, tend to 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:02.520 actively suppress and it's something you know, and I will 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.359 say this there there's there's there's a kind of like 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:06.920 there's like a kind of neoliberal version of this stuff. 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:08.760 First like oh, well do you know who local have 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:10.920 like local knowledge blah blah blah. And then they're like, well, 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.560 well we'll have local knowledge. But they that this will 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.320 help them create market solutions to things. It's like that 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:22.920 also doesn't work. And it's basically just like yeah, but 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:30.240 because that I really like sits let doesn't sit well 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.879 with me. You know, like these sort of like see that. 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:35.919 You see a lot of liberals like doing it a 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.640 lot these days where they'll be like doing the whole 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:43.399 land acknowledge months thing and they'll be doing the that 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.439 thing where they would just like say that, oh this 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.680 is from so and sue culture and whatever, and then's 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:53.080 just like boom and then carry yeah, carry on with 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.120 business as usual. Yeah, which is I learned this technique 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.800 from SO and so. Try no, let me because I 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:05.880 can sultan for your company. Yeah yeah, yeah. It's it's 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:11.919 commod it's commodifying the thing, and that that both produces 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.960 a warped replication and then it also kind of makes 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:20.960 the original thing seem like used in a weird way 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:25.520 as well, like it wasn't designed. Yeah, yeah, I once 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:30.040 reminded a bit of alienation and how we are just 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:34.439 sort of separated from you know, aspects of our actual 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.679 humanity because of the structures we live under. Right, So 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:45.720 instead of relating with the environment, or relating with our culture, 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.280 or relating to other people, we're just relating through like 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:54.760 these commodities and these products and these you know, just 0:21:55.560 --> 0:22:01.240 bastardized versions of things. And I think that is also 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:07.360 something that sort of pleagues like some environmentalists in terms. 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.960 So there's there's there's almost like this subtle ill nation 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:16.320 from the nature that um many of them seek to preserve, 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:21.320 right where on the one hand, yes, you're trying to 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.920 you know, preserve it and protect it and as commendable, 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:29.399 and the other hand, the way you're going about it 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:36.879 is basically like anti tactical to those schools, because you 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:40.480 don't have that connection with the nature that you're trying 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.880 to help. You know. What it seems like a lot 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.400 of people not recognizing is that you know, humans are 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:52.160 of hearts nature, right, and this is not a bioregional concept, right, 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:57.080 This thing called bioregional reinhabitation in it in being that 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:02.800 um meaning that we must come home to the geographical 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:08.440 and biophysicalter and reinhabit, understand its ecologically uniqueness, and familiarize 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.720 ourselves with the stories woven into the fabric of said land. 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.160 It's history, it's peoples, it's cultures, it's flora, it's fauna. 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:17.960 You know. It's only once we come home to the 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:21.480 our byo regions and to our ecosystems, to our places, 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:25.359 that we can really work together to see its potential, 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:30.760 to see how we fit into it, how we can 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:36.480 facilitate its healing, you know, bio region by bioy region. Yeah, 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:41.159 that definitely mirrors stuff I've been working on relating to 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.440 that type of like cognitive dissonance that you're talking about, 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:49.040 and that alienation not just from like human to human, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.199 but human to human to place, because yeah, we have 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:56.560 like developed this like this commodified other version of nature 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.680 that isn't actually what nature is, um It's it's it's 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.680 we've arm this thing that is separate from us, which 0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:05.879 is not how we need to think about it, because 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:08.680 it should be. We are all part of the same 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.119 of of of that same system. We are not separate 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.520 from it, and we're not isolated from it or its effects. 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:16.720 We are just another part of it. So it's about 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:22.520 getting in like getting a sense of ecology with both 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:25.800 your bioregion and then the biosphere as as as a whole, 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:28.600 and getting that ecology which kind of will break down 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.600 this notion of nature being in other and and I 0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:35.600 think because of the idea of nature being another that 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:40.040 really kind of fosters our extraction that's led to our 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:44.080 our current problems because we don't use problems affecting us. 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:46.480 We give you them as a practice as affecting the territory. 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:48.520 And if we're if we're not the territory, then we 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:54.040 can be safe. But that's not so I go on. 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:56.600 I think, I think I may have talked about this 0:24:56.640 --> 0:24:58.520 on the show before, but you know that there's another 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.359 aspect here, which is that viewing humans is sort of 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.280 like separate from like this abstract nature is how you 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.240 get a lot of really bad like racist environmentalism. Like 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:13.120 if you haven't read The Trouble with Wilderness by yeah, 0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:14.960 crowning the Trouble with Wilderness is one of the things 0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:18.520 that like if you're study, yeah, if you do environmental 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:20.520 studies at all, like this is one of the first 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:21.919 things they hand you and the reason they hand it 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:26.040 to you is because it you know, so the image 0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:27.800 of wilderness that we have is sort of like, oh, 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:30.520 it's this like completely untapped thing, and it's like, well, yeah, okay. 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:32.919 So the reason the reason we have this image of 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:35.320 like a wilderness with nothing in it is because there 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:36.880 used to be people there and we killed them all 0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:45.920 or fortunately deported them. Yeah. Yeah, and it's especiically wilderness. Yeah, 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:51.159 it was for us literally planted those forests were I 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:54.920 think even more pointedly should it should be stated those 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:58.159 forests were a work of engineering that's on par with 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:02.640 the Pyramids at Giza, if not absolutely massively in excess 0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:05.640 of it there. They are a work of engineering that's 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:08.439 every bit as impressive as any city ever built. Um, 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:10.720 and every bit is like intense and required as much 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:14.560 knowledge and scientific understanding. People just all we had, all 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:17.639 of those people had died by the time white folks 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:20.280 really because of the spread of disease or just because 0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:22.800 of act Like yeah, like I I think that's true. 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:24.359 Definitely the East coast, Like with the West Coast, I 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:26.639 think it's even grimmer because the West coast you and 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:29.440 this this happened, you still see this where like a 0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:31.760 lot of like the American National Parks were literally like 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.320 like people would go and ethnically cleanse the population that 0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:38.040