WEBVTT - Interview Only w/ Julie Scelfo - Inside the Movement To Save Childhood From Big Tech 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.840 It's sponsorship time. But you know what, it's really great 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:06.040 when you get a sponsor that you already use. And 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.119 guess what. Quint's is something that in the Todd household 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:10.920 we already go to. Why do we go to Quint's 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.160 Because it's a place you go where you can get 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.680 some really nice clothes without the really expensive prices. And 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:18.840 one of the things I've been going through is I've 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:22.120 transitioned from being mister cot and ty guy to wanting 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.360 a little more casual but to look nice doing it. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.880 Is I've become mister quarter zip guy. Well guess what. 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.920 Guess he's got amazing amounts of quarter zips. 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That's 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:40.840 qui nce dot com, slash chuck, free shipping and three 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:45.320 hundred and sixty five day returns quints dot com slash chuck. 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:54.040 Use that code so joining me today. Er of something 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:59.360 called MAMA. That's the acronym. It is Mother's Against Media Addiction. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.000 The founder is Julia excuse me, Julie Shelfe. She's a 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:09.280 former New York Times reporter has become a bit of 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:15.240 I think a media ecologist of sorts. And look, as 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.160 many of you know, many of my listeners here know 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.240 that trying to figure out how we rebuild trust in 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.239 the information ecosystem, how can we clean up the information ecosystem? 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.200 And one of the more remarkable things in this polarized 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.680 environment is that what's been interesting is that the only 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.160 time we can find areas of agreement is when it 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:37.000 is about protecting our kids online social media. And so 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.640 as we try to figure out how big tech is 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:45.320 going to build AI and will they do it safely 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:50.080 or not? Given the experience with social media, I figured 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.000 this would be a really good conversation because I want 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.760 to learn more about mama. So, Julie, welcome to the podcast. 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.440 Hi Chuck, thank you so much for having me. It's 0:02:58.440 --> 0:02:59.320 a pleasure to be here. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.200 Let's start with you know this, you know, look, I'm 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.040 in I just got out of an hour long meeting 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.639 in a nonprofit group I'm involved with called Trust in Media, 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.480 and where it's just constantly like, what can we do 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:19.639 to repair and rebuild trust in all sorts of institutions? Right, 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.200 sort of the information ecosystem that was sort of at 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.720 the at the heart of the What's interesting about this 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.320 organization that I'm working with is that it includes folks 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.360 in the national security space and folks in the business 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.560 space and in health and in sports, as well as 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:40.880 news and politics. And you're tackling this from a from 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.800 a youth space, and as we transition from fearing social 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.840 media to fearing AI. This is I think a pretty 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:53.320 relevant conversation. So I want to start with what motivated 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:57.040 you to do this? I think it's obvious in some cases, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:02.360 but are you pressed without quickly we actually have come 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.040 together on the issue of at least our phones and schools. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.480 Well, okay, so there were like three questions. 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.400 And that's what I did. Maybe that's why it's a podcast. 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:18.080 I'm gonna I'm gonna work backwards. So so I was 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.760 moved to start Mama for a couple reasons. 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.480 One is that when did you start it? 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:28.679 By the way, so I incorporated her in twenty twenty three. 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.400 We only announced ourselves publicly early last year, so we're 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.040 not even two years old yet. But a few years 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:40.680 before that, I gave a TED talk because I was 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:45.520 so deeply concerned about erosion of trust and information and 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:49.080 what was happening in our media environments, and having spent 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.560 my career in professional newsrooms, I was at the New 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.080 York Times and before that, I was at Newsweek. I 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.640 sort of watched the rise of digital media and how 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.479 the legacy news organizations responded to it. And what was 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.240 very clear to me, what was very unfortunate is that 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:11.200 even though journalists are really good at understanding and vetting 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.360 information quality, they weren't trained in media literacy, and they 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.800 didn't understand how what they publish and how what they 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:24.920 communicated communicated. But they were communicating online and on television 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.520 was helping shape the information environment. And so you know, 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.320 the question about regaining trust is a big one, and 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.320 I hope we can talk about it more later in 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.600 the show. But specifically for Mama, I was reporting a 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.200 lot on youth mental health and suicide. And it was 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:45.520 about a decade ago that we saw a terrible increase 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.440 in suicide rates among American adolescents, and I reported on 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:53.159 that and it was manifestly obvious that social media was 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.000 at the heart of that problem. And then, as sad 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:00.440 as that story was, we saw suicide rates go up 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.320 not just in teens, but in tweens, which your children 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.719 as young as nine to ten. Now I'm a mom. 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:10.480 I have three sons, and reporting that story really shook 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.640 me to my core. When you have nine year olds, 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.400 ten year old children who want to die, something is 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.160 profoundly messed up. Because I run mama. I won't use 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.520 the crude language that's really in my head about that 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.320 how messed up that is. But I realized something had 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.919 to be done. And what has to be done is 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:33.160 that this information environment has to be brought under control 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:34.479 so that it's safe for children. 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.440 And that's you know, I look at this movement right 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:43.200 of what we've seen about trying to at least take 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:47.520 bones out of classrooms, and you know, when I see 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:48.960 how hard it is to get the left and the 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.159 right to agree on anything, and it is the one thing, 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.600 whether it's a super liberal state legislature, super conservative state legislature, 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.400 this stuff has made it through. This is the one 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.840 place it is made it through. I fear we're too 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:06.200 late on social media, but maybe this gets us there 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:06.719 on AI. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.040 So I don't think we're too late on social media 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:16.040 because every day a child is growing up and being 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.200 exposed to things through these platforms, and every day that 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:25.200 we allow a handful of companies to share whatever they 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:30.000 want with whoever they want, under any circumstances, with no regulation. 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.960 Is a day that we are leaving our children vulnerable 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:38.360 to terrible harms. When I was reporting my stories, we 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.360 didn't have data about the amount of suicide and self 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.400 harm content. Meta released data on it just last year, 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.600 and according to Meta's own report, there were forty eight 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.240 million separate pieces of suicide and self harm content on 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.400 their platforms in the previous year. And that's just the 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.800 pieces that they'll acknowledge. There's probably a lot more than that. So, 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.720 you know, as long as we've had mass media, beginning 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:07.800 in the nineteen thirties with radio, our government has regulated it. 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:09.720 It has said there need to be limits, there need 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.440 to be standards. It's not censoring free speech. It's just 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:18.160 recognizing that not all content is appropriate in all places 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.160 for all audiences. I don't think we want a world. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.440 You know, if we allowed every single course vulgar X 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:31.320 rated activity on our regular television channels and on the radio, 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:33.560 you know what kind of world would we have. So 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:34.040 I'm not. 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.560 Exacting the way that world does exist. It's the Internet. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.480 I mean, we've let this happen on the Internet, and 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:45.320 nobody wanted this, right, Like, we know we don't like this, 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.040 but we can't agree on how to stop this. 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:52.240 Well, I think there is actually pretty wide consensus on 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.800 how to stop it. I think we also are just 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:59.280 facing an industry that has unlimited amounts of money and 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.559 they are spending on godly amounts of money on lobbying. 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.000 Our friends at an organization called Issue one have been 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:11.120 tracking this and they have found that the tech big 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:16.320 tech industry has one lobbyist for every two lawmakers in Washington, 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:21.920 and Meta alone has one lobbyist for every seven lawmakers. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.680 So you know what's happening is, even though there's wide 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:31.360 agreement among most lawmakers and most parents and most citizens, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.400 you have big tech spending on godly and holy amounts 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.120 of money and getting just a few people who are 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.280 really messing up legislation. I mean, one example is the 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.679 Kids Online Safety Act, which passed last year in the 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.400 Senate by a vote of ninety one to three, which like, 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.960 when does that happen? And over in the House, Speaker 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.720 Johnson refused to bring it for a vote. Steve Scalise 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.760 says it wasn't good legislation. And nobody could understand why. 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.320 And then it was announced that Meta is building a 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.600 twenty eight billion dollar AI data processing plant in the 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.520 state which you know, I don't know. Does that have 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:07.000 something to. 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.720 Do with it? Maybe in the state of I assume 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:11.480 you mean state of Louisiana. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:12.160 The State of Louisiana. 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.199 Yeah, Johnson and Scalise, Yeah. 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:14.640 No. 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.200 And we're seeing the same thing with AI. I mean, 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:23.480 take the take the issue of this moratorium from states 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.160 being able to regulate AI that I do think is 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:32.040 become I think it's now too toxic to support. I 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:33.520 think we'll find out. 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.520 Right, I am, well, I hope you're right. 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.240 Yeah, I mean we're going to find out. And maybe 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.160 unfortunately this gets can't tell you how many pieces of 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.240 really harmful legislation gets snuck in in the month of December. 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:50.680 It's historically because everybody's in holiday mode. It'll just can 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.800 can sometimes get So I think we are in the 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.840 month of December when we're taping this and when this 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.199 is when people are listening to this, So there's always 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.200 a chance this is something that get snuck in. But 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.800 it does seem as if there's enough opposition. But I 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:06.840 know you're working on this. 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.480 I mean, our members have been sending thousands of letters. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.439 And for those of your listeners who aren't familiar with this, 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:19.000 the tech industry is trying to get this sweetheart deal 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.520 passed where they would pass a federal law saying there 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.880 can be no state regulation of AI and this is 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.920 such a profound violation of states' rights and their fundamental 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.400 ability to keep their citizens safe that we had forty 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.240 four I think attorneys general send a letter to the 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.520 Senate when this was being considered earlier this year in 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.720 the Big Beautiful Bill, saying this is outrageous. You can't 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.200 do this. Hundreds of lawmakers of both parties, so you 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:46.640 can't do this, And it came out of the Big 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.320 Beautiful Bill. Now they're trying to sneak it back into 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:53.079 the Defense Reauthorization Act. And we're also hearing there's the 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.480 possibility of an executive order. So you know, the way 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.480 the draft was worded, it's so vague. It would not 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.520 only for it states from regulating AI, prohibit them from 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.200 regulating social media. So nobody wants this, and it would 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.880 just be a real boon to a handful of billionaires 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:09.880 who own these companies. 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.320 Well, I'm glad you brought up the executive order, because 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.679 it does seem as if that was that was going 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.240 to be the tech community's last resort, and that does 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:20.959 look like that's going to happen, doesn't it. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.880 That's right, you know, I hope it doesn't. I do 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.120 think even if it does happen, it's so problematic that 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.400 it's unlikely to be enforced right away. 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.199 But I mean, I don't think it's by the way, 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.360 I don't think it's enforceable, and I think there'll be 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.319 some states that basically like, let's go, we're going to 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.360 we're going to do some regulate Let go ahead and 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:40.320 try to stop us. 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.280 Yeah, yeah, I mean, how like, in what other industry 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.640 do we say, Okay, you can just do whatever you want. 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.720 You know, we regulate our food to make sure it's safe. 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.360 We regulate our vehicles to make sure they're safe. We 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.760 don't want to live in a world where companies are 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.280 not required to test cars and make sure the breaks 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:58.440 work before you get them. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.079 Well, this gets a something that I think is one 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.920 of those do you know. One of the ways the 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.040 advocates of low regulation right now in AI, one of 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.240 the arguments they make is, hey, we did this with 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.840 the Internet. We had very little regulation, and my retort 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.000 always is, and how did that go? Right? Like, we 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.400 decided to have a hands off approach on social media 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.559 and that turned out to be a colossal mistake. Now 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.600 I happen to believe social media. I mean, here's the problem. 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.600 I think this has been a disaster. I think it 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.679 something that destroys the information ecosystem, that destroys trust, that 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.679 breaks up families. This is not a successful business, and 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:46.120 yet we want to create the same regulatory environment to 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.640 allow AI to thrive. And we think that's going to 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.400 be good because of the experience with social media. And 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.599 I do think this is why there's more public and 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.199 there's more bipartisan pushback on this because I think if 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.320 you frame the question of do you want the tech 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:07.520 companies to have this to use this same lack of 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.400 rules of the game to build AI as they build 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.760 social media? Do you trust the same people that build 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.320 social media to build AI? I think the answer is no. 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.960 Well, Chuck, it's not a successful business for families, for society, 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.520 for democracy, for children, but it is for shareholders and 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.040 for a handful of people who own these companies. And 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.440 what we're seeing, is this really unprecedented alliance between a 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.720 few people at the highest levels of government and the 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:38.880 folks who own these companies. Now, everybody who has children says, 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.720 that's not what's most important. You know, I have no 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.320 problem with people making money and building a successful company, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.000 but you should not be able to do it on 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.720 the backs of children. So you know, that is why 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.240 Mama is working. We started, you know, hoping that we 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.880 could have six chapters by the end of the first year. 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.560 We were sort of inspired by mothers against drunk driving 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.520 and the way they had chapters around the country. Instead, 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.960 we're up to nearly forty chapters in twenty two states. 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.800 Our members are working in their homes and their communities, 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:14.560 in their schools, and with policymakers to advance changes, just 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.440 like we had to make big changes once we learned 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.760 about the harms of big tobacco, saying Okay, it shouldn't 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.000 be normative that we give this to young children. It 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.640 shouldn't be okay that we load it full of chemicals 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.720 that can cause cancer. And we have to ensure that 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:32.880 we're both using it in a safe way and that 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.760 the manufacturers of these products are held to basic safety standards. 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.040 Glad you brought up tobacco. I was actually that was 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:41.560 the next way I was going to ask, which is 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:47.920 what lessons are there to take away from the essentially 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.760 what was a thirty year fight, but it was the 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:55.640 public one, right, tobacco. You know, it's not gone, but 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.840 it is. It is now where it should be available 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:03.440 to those who want it, for adults and adults only. 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.240 It's a great example. And I think this fight is 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.520 a lot like big tobacco in some ways, and there 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:15.120 are a few differences. And what's similar is that big 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.400 tech and social media products and technology in general is 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:22.040 so embedded in our society that in order to shift 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.880 how we use it, to shift how we regulate it, 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.160 it's going to take change at multiple levels. So, just 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.960 like with big tobacco, we need culture change. We need 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.800 a lot of education so that people think about it differently. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.160 We had to go back to Hollywood, you know, whereas 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.160 tobacco companies had paid them to write scripts where the 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.880 sexy leading men and women were smokers. We had to 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.040 convince them to make sure that the sexy men and 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.760 women leading you know, stars were not smoking. We had 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.240 to get rid of Joe camel, So there had to 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.120 be a lot of public education. And then there were 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.520 also lawsuits, and we're seeing with organizations like the Social 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.680 Media Victims Law Center and other lawmakers where they are 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.439 suing these companies because the companies are claiming it's not 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.119 their fault that children are harmed. But now the courts 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.680 are hearing cases where, for example, you know, and apologies 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.600 to talk about a difficult subject in listeners, just like 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.080 a kind of a trigger warning. But you know, I've 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:22.400 met families whose children were sent affirmatively sent by Instagram 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.879 of videos of someone hanging themselves and then their child replicated. 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.960 We had a little girl in Pennsylvania who tried the 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.159 choking challenge after the platform sent it to her, and 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.240 so courts are now hearing that, and that's just like 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:36.200 what happened with Big Tomay. 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.560 Well, this is this whole thing was sexual section two thirty. 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.600 You know, I've had this argument, I'm not a lawyer. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.879 I played one on I've played one on television. Was 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.720 how I joked, And basically every reporter over time sort 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:49.760 of starts to think like a lawyer at times, right, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:55.120 And I don't understand how Section two thirty even applies 0:17:55.160 --> 0:18:00.800 that once a tech company creates an algorithm, now a publisher. 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.760 If they choose not to be a publisher, then they 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:07.840 don't have any liability. But the minute they created an algorithm, 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.640 as you point out they sent the video, they are 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.399 It's no different than our old newspaper editors deciding what 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.760 goes what goes on the above the fold that people 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.360 can see in the news box where you you still 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.560 when we're you still? Sorry for those of that don't 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.840 remember this, we need to go and actually put a 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.000 quarter in and get your newspaper out of a box. 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.960 And when quote unquote below the fall, it's a choice, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.480 it's an algorithm, is a choice that the tech company makes. 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.760 I don't see how Section two thirty applies at all. 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.919 Well, I think instead of calling at social media, we 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.760 should be calling at mass media publishing, because that's what 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.640 it is. And so when you hear the tech lobby saying, well, 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.720 this is you know, First Amendment. The First Amendment guarantees 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.240 us the right to free speech. It doesn't guarantee you 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.800 the right to publish speech. It doesn't guarantee you the 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.520 right to broadcast speech, and it doesn't guarantee you the 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.320 right to mak mediated speech. So for the last century 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.760 we've had all kinds of laws and restrictions and accountability 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:11.280 for publishers, for broadcasters, and we allow social media to 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:15.159 come in and turn anybody and everybody into a publisher 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.600 without any accountability. So, you know, in terms of your 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.880 opening question about how do we get the information ecosystem 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.119 back on track, I think that it's pretty simple. We 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.960 have to pass some regulation that holds people accountable for 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:34.399 what they publish. And again, advertisers supported speech is very 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.680 different than First Amendment speech, and social media is supported 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.639 by advertising, so that's another legal aspect of it that 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:43.360 I think needs to be looked at. 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.960 Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.040 personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away. 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.480 We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.880 the best shape. 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