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Speaker 1: Welcome back to a Numbers Game podcast with Brian Gerdowski.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on this Thursday episode. I am

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Speaker 1: on my way to Kansas. I will be the keynote

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Speaker 1: speaker this weekend at the Bob Dole Dinner for the

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Speaker 1: Kansas Republican Party, which is very exciting.

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Speaker 2: I'm very nervous.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do a good job and pay tribute

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Speaker 1: to the legacy of Bob Doll to talk about the future,

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Speaker 1: but this is It's very nerve wracking, and I am

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Speaker 1: I'm honored to be invited, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure why I was invited, but I'm excited.

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Speaker 1: Funny story, Bob Dole running for president nineteen ninety six

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Speaker 1: was the first time I realized that there was an

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Speaker 1: election for president. I was nine years old in school

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Speaker 1: and we had to learn about it. And I remember

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Speaker 1: going learning at all the candidates running and going home

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Speaker 1: to my parents and saying, I learned about this election,

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Speaker 1: and I want you to vote for Ross Pro.

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Speaker 2: They didn't. They voted it for Dole.

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Speaker 1: But I think I might open my speech with saying

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Speaker 1: that I was a Pro fan at the age of nine. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: hopefully goes well, and I'll tell you how it goes

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Speaker 1: next week and they don't boom me as part of

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Speaker 1: Bob Dole's revenge for being a you thrust for pro supporter.

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Speaker 2: Today's gonna be a unique episode.

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Speaker 1: I have some numbers I want to throw you guys out,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to have a non political story and

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Speaker 1: interview that I think you guys would find very fascinating.

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Speaker 1: So first on the political stuff across the pond over

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Speaker 1: the UK, the Labor government finally did at about face

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Speaker 1: this week and did a proper investigation into grooming gangs. Now,

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Speaker 1: for those who don't know, I appeared on the BBC

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Speaker 1: almost teny years ago saying that there was a it

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Speaker 1: was a conversation on Trump and you know, always bringing

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Speaker 1: up the Muslim band and they were telling how racist

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Speaker 1: it was and all the rest of this and that

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Speaker 1: there's no you know, Muslim terrorism, and I said, yes

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Speaker 1: there is, like you have Muslim grooming gangs from Pakistani

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Speaker 1: men raping white girls in northern England. The host of

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Speaker 1: the show at the BBC show, they kicked me off

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Speaker 1: the air, said it wasn't happening, that what I said

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Speaker 1: wasn't true, and that apologized to the audience that I

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Speaker 1: had offended listeners for what I had said. That was

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Speaker 1: almost ten years ago. Well, Baroness Luis Casey has released

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Speaker 1: a two hundred page report and found that the mere

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Speaker 1: Pori Pakistanis from the Kashmir Providence were extremely well overrepresented

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Speaker 1: in all data responsible for grooming gangs in the UK.

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Speaker 1: You might think this is one little area of Pakistan

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Speaker 1: and how many people could it be. There are about

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Speaker 1: one million Poori Pakistanis living in the UK. It is

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Speaker 1: the biggest predominant group that come to the UK from Pakistan. Now,

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Speaker 1: in many of the cases, the ethnicity of the perpetrators

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Speaker 1: never taken because officials feared that they will be labeled

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Speaker 1: as racists. But in areas that it was taken. In

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Speaker 1: three hundred and twenty three cases known as Operations stove Wood,

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Speaker 1: sixty two percent of all groomers were Pakistani, despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that they make up only three percent of the population.

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Speaker 1: Eve At Cooper, the Home Secretary basically our version of DHS,

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Speaker 1: put out a list of recommendations. It includes ensuring adults

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Speaker 1: who engage impenetrative sex with children under sixteen based the

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Speaker 1: most serious charge of rape instead of lesser charges. They're

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Speaker 1: going to launch a new national Criminal Operation to oversee

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Speaker 1: the National Crime Agency and tackle grooming gangs. They're going

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Speaker 1: to review the criminal convictions of child sexual exploitation and

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Speaker 1: quashing any convictions where the government finds that the victims

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Speaker 1: were criminalized rather than be protected. They're going to make

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Speaker 1: a collection of ethnicity and national data for all suspects

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Speaker 1: of child's abuse. They're going to commission research into driven

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Speaker 1: into drivers for group based child sexual exploitation, including the

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Speaker 1: role of social media and cultural factors. And they're going

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Speaker 1: to bring a more rigorous standard for the licensing and

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Speaker 1: regulation of taxi drivers because many of these Pakistani men

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Speaker 1: were taxi drivers luring young girls into their taxis saying

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Speaker 1: you want to come have alcohol or you know, drugs,

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Speaker 1: which in many poor areas of Northern England was very

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Speaker 1: enticing to fourteen year old girls to have alcohol. Remember,

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Speaker 1: the drinking ages are a lot lower and the culture

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Speaker 1: aroun drinking is a lot more open. They would say yes,

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Speaker 1: they would drug them, get them drunk, then drug them

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Speaker 1: and then rape them in a group activity. Okay, some

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Speaker 1: of these ideas are very good and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give credit to the Labor government on at least going

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Speaker 1: this far, considering they've been completely opposed to it for decades,

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Speaker 1: certainly since my comments came out in twenty ten. They've

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Speaker 1: been notoriously against method because it's made just because they

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Speaker 1: have been against it for years. But what the UK

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Speaker 1: government needs to do is repeal most or parts of

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Speaker 1: the Equality Act of twenty ten. This was a law

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Speaker 1: passed by the previous Labor Labor government from years ago,

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Speaker 1: and it prohibits discrimination based on protected characteristics, including race,

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Speaker 1: in employment and service delivery. Police officers, as public servants

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Speaker 1: are subject to this law and discriminatory behavior can be

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Speaker 1: deemed as gross misconduct. So police officers were purposely not

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Speaker 1: investigating cases of child rape child sexual exploitation when the

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Speaker 1: victim was going with biological evidence in some cases saying

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Speaker 1: you can look at me, I have been raped multiple times.

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Speaker 1: They refuse to do it because if the grooming gang

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Speaker 1: said this police officer is clearly racist, there would be

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Speaker 1: overwhelming push to have that police officer dismissed from their

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Speaker 1: jobs and that they are the problem, not that the

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Speaker 1: criminals were the problem. And this law is the lynchpin

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Speaker 1: behind which all of these police officers were unable to

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Speaker 1: really do their job in a profound way.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: JK.

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Speaker 1: Rowling was tweeting like, we need to change the culture

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Speaker 1: of protecting girls. Yes, but you need to undo the law,

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Speaker 1: you crazy liberal like that.

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Speaker 2: That is what it is.

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Speaker 1: I know, like the idea of the Quality Act sounds wonderful,

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Speaker 1: but the law is creating all these circumstances. And one

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Speaker 1: last thing, maybe don't bring in a million people from

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Speaker 1: a culture that views women as lesser than Maybe don't

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Speaker 1: bring in a million people from a culture that thinks

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Speaker 1: child's sexual activities perfectly normal, that women can be beat

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Speaker 1: that you know, you could have that women are like,

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Speaker 1: you know, furniture or animals. That is the problem. You

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Speaker 1: are importing a culture that for many people, especially when

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Speaker 1: it is ghetto wise, because you're bringing in so many people,

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Speaker 1: they they push, they bring that culture with them, They

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Speaker 1: bring that culture to the UK and they view a

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Speaker 1: lot of things like this is a prize is to

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Speaker 1: sit there and rape a young British woman. So good

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Speaker 1: for the UK government for doing something, but it is

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Speaker 1: outrageous it took this long and hopefully if there's someone

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Speaker 1: in the entire UK government level with a brain from

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Speaker 1: either the Reform or Tory party. They will talk about

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Speaker 1: repealing the Equalities Act if they haven't already.

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Speaker 2: I don't. Maybe they did, but I don't think they did.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's your number is for this podcast on the

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Speaker 1: political side.

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Speaker 2: Now, I want to.

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Speaker 1: Get to a passion interest of mine, which is true crime.

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Speaker 1: I know there's a million podcasts on true crime and

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Speaker 1: books and whatever, and we'll get back to politics on Monday.

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Speaker 1: This is not going to become a true crime podcast,

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Speaker 1: but this episode is special.

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Speaker 2: I am a true crime junkie.

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Speaker 1: I've listened to podcasts, I've read books like A Stranger

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Speaker 1: Beside Me, which is one of my favorite books, documentaries,

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Speaker 1: you name it, like if I'm ap at two o'clock

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Speaker 1: in the morning, I'm researching who killed John bin a Ramsay.

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Speaker 1: This is who I am. It is a sickness. It

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Speaker 1: is a mental illness. I understand it. But I love

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Speaker 1: true crime. So the most talked about trial of the

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Speaker 1: year just ended, and it is the Karen Reid trial,

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Speaker 1: and it's about the death of John O'Keefe. So most

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Speaker 1: of you have probably maybe heard about this trial or

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Speaker 1: hear parts of it. I wanted to give you the

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Speaker 1: brief facts before going into the interview because it is interesting.

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Speaker 1: On the night of January twenty eighth, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: Karen Reid and John o'keef, who were dating John A. Keeps,

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Speaker 1: a forty six year old Boston police officer, where they

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Speaker 1: were out drinking with friends in Canton, Massachusetts, about twenty

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Speaker 1: miles south of Boston. After visiting bars, they were invited

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Speaker 1: to an after party at the home of Brian Albert,

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Speaker 1: another Boston police officer. There was a terrible snowstorm outside

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Speaker 1: but they but John insisted on going to this after party,

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Speaker 1: so they drove to the house. Allegedly, there they saw

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Speaker 1: no lights on in the house. John o'keef got out

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Speaker 1: of the car went to the house around twelve thirty

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Speaker 1: am to see if there were people inside. According to prosecutors,

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Speaker 1: this is when allegedly Karen Reid, who was intoxicated and

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Speaker 1: angry at him, backed up into him, hitting him and

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Speaker 1: leaving him to die in the snow. John o'keef's body

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Speaker 1: was discovered at six am. I think he might have

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Speaker 1: been a lie, but he was pronounced dead shortly afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Karen Reid was arrested on February first, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: and charged with second degree murder man saw her while

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Speaker 1: operating under the influence of alcohol and leaving the scene

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Speaker 1: of a collision causing injury or death. She pleaded not

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Speaker 1: guilty to all charges. Her defense team insisted that this

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Speaker 1: was actually a cover up, insinuating that the police were

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Speaker 1: actually a fall for his death. Witnesses said that Karen

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Speaker 1: she did come back to the scene of crime a

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Speaker 1: few hours later, I guess when she had sobered up,

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Speaker 1: And they said that she said that she had hit him,

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Speaker 1: and she had left the scene and left him to die.

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Speaker 1: And when she had left the scene of twelve thirty,

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Speaker 1: she did leave him a lot of angry voicemails because

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Speaker 1: he did not come back to see to say like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you can come in, or I'm good or whatever. So

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Speaker 1: Reid's defense team Karen Read's defense team, led by attorney

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Speaker 1: David Yanetti and Alan Jackson. They argue that O'Keefe was

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Speaker 1: killed inside the Albertone, possibly beaten an attacked by a dog,

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Speaker 1: and dumped outside, with Reed being framed as the cover

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Speaker 1: up for the crime. Their theory was that O'Keefe got

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Speaker 1: out of the car went inside the house, a fight

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Speaker 1: ensued with someone inside the house, either Brian Albert or

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Speaker 1: his other Colin Albert, or Brian Higgins, a federal agent

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Speaker 1: who was also the party someone fought with him is

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Speaker 1: the point they pointed to o'keef's arm injuries, though the

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Speaker 1: defense did saying that saying because of a witness, an

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Speaker 1: expert witness, doctor Marie Russell, they suggested that his injuries

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Speaker 1: were not with a car, but they were with dog bites,

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Speaker 1: and the family inside the house had a dog at

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Speaker 1: the time, they had a German shepherd. They said these

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Speaker 1: dog bites at the home were showing that there must

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Speaker 1: have been a fight and the dog got involved, which

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Speaker 1: a German shepherd would if their owner was fighting. Incidentally,

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Speaker 1: between the time of the attack and the trial, the

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Speaker 1: very first trial of Karen Reid, the dog was re

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Speaker 1: homed in that time, so they could never do a

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Speaker 1: investigation where they looked into the dog. A lot of

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Speaker 1: things that were inside that house allegedly went missing or destroyed.

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Speaker 1: There were outside videotapes from across the street that never

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Speaker 1: showed up. There was phones that were destroyed. Afterwards. At

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Speaker 1: two twenty seven am, Jennifer McCabe, who was married to

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Speaker 1: mister McCabe. She looked in her Google searches on her

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Speaker 1: phone has a long to die in cold, suggesting that

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Speaker 1: there was some fore knowledge of mister O'Keefe's condition, of

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Speaker 1: John o keep's condition before the body was found. McCabe

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Speaker 1: claimed that it was searched at six am, six twenty

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Speaker 1: am when Karen was there at the house looking for him,

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Speaker 1: but it was it was to twenty seven am. They

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Speaker 1: also said that there was key evidence, the key evidence

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Speaker 1: of the whole trial was this broken tail light that

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Speaker 1: Karen Read's car allegedly had. This broken tail light found

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Speaker 1: at the scene, but it was found days later underneath

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Speaker 1: all the snow. They they claimed the defense claimed it

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Speaker 1: was actually planted there, and it was not. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: like that she hit him, broke the tail light and

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Speaker 1: then fled. That actually was planted there a few days

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Speaker 1: later by people within that Canton PD Boston PD universe

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Speaker 1: trying to protect the mccabes well. On Wednesday, June eighteenth,

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Speaker 1: after four days of deliberation in the second trial, the

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Speaker 1: first trial was on jury. In this second trial, the

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Speaker 1: jury acquitted Karen Read of all major charges, finding her

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Speaker 1: only guilty of driving under the influence, which basically I

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Speaker 1: mean Karen did say she was drinking right beforehand, so

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Speaker 1: it's not shocking. But all the major things of the

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Speaker 1: murder in the second degree, fleeing the scene of a crime,

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Speaker 1: all that she was declared that she was not guilty.

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Speaker 1: This case has deeply divided communities across the country who

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Speaker 1: feel that Ree was either innocent and wrongfully framed by

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Speaker 1: a power hungry and corrupt police department, or that they

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Speaker 1: felt she murdered her boyfriend and that she was a

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Speaker 1: cold hearted, crazy woman. And then there are other people

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Speaker 1: feel like she was overcharged. Maybe she hit him, but

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Speaker 1: it should have been a manslaughter charge and not a

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Speaker 1: homicide in the second degree. Remember the prosecution, and they

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Speaker 1: didn't just say, oh, they probably hit her. They went

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Speaker 1: for the full juggular. They went for the full She

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Speaker 1: intentionally hit him. It wasn't an accident. She meant to

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Speaker 1: hit him. She did hit him, and then she fled

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Speaker 1: in her drunken state. That's what they accused her of.

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Speaker 1: It's a very very severe charge. In the middle of

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Speaker 1: his whole trial, Karen Reid became this lightning rod of

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Speaker 1: controversy and one man was behind the entire ground swell,

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Speaker 1: grassroots effort to free her. And his name is Aiden Carney,

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Speaker 1: otherwise known as turtle Boy. Aiden also has become a

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Speaker 1: lightning plot of controversy. He was charged with witness tampering

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Speaker 1: or sorry, witness intimidation. Rather, he said he said that

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Speaker 1: was an effort to smear him. He's fighting those charges,

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Speaker 1: but hate him are love him. He created a widespread

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Speaker 1: effort to free Camra Read and he was successful in

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Speaker 1: doing that. He created a movement from people all over

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Speaker 1: that region and all over the country. They responded to

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Speaker 1: what he was doing. He is coming on this podcast

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Speaker 1: next the first time after the Karen retrial. He's going

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Speaker 1: to give a full interview. I'm so excited. Please stay

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Speaker 1: tuned and we'll be back with Turtle Boy. With me

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Speaker 1: on today's podcast is Aimed Cardney. He is otherwise known

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Speaker 1: as turtle Boy. Thank you so much for coming on.

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Speaker 2: Aiden.

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Speaker 1: My first question to you is how did you first

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Speaker 1: hear about Karen's story and what made you throw yourself

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Speaker 1: fully into it, like it's been a big part of

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Speaker 1: your life last few years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I know it was in the news when

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Speaker 4: John first died I typically write about stories like that when,

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Speaker 4: especially when the police are killed, it's you know, content,

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Speaker 4: people are interested in death of a police officer. When

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Speaker 4: I saw that it appeared to be an accident though,

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Speaker 4: which just wasn't a very interesting story. Quite frankly, it

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Speaker 4: was a tragic story. But then a year and a

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Speaker 4: half later, when court filing started coming out and you

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Speaker 4: started reading more and more about this, and it turned

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Speaker 4: out that I was sitting on the story of the century,

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Speaker 4: I realized that this deserved a much deeper dive when

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Speaker 4: I realized that, wait a minute, a Boston police officer.

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Speaker 3: At his house.

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Speaker 4: Apparently killed another Boston police officer with an ATF agent

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Speaker 4: and other people, and they covered it up after the fact,

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Speaker 4: and the state police assisted them in that. Like I'm

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Speaker 4: sitting on the story of the century here, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I just started writing about it, and here we are,

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Speaker 4: so you.

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Speaker 1: Know, at the center of this case is a real tragedy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, John'll keep his dead and his family and

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Speaker 1: his friends miss him terribly. Karen is a lightning rod, right.

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Speaker 1: Either she is a victim of the biggest cover up

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Speaker 1: by the state and local police, or she's a crazy,

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Speaker 1: jilted woman who did this, either intentionally or by an accent.

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Speaker 1: What made people's intensity that drew her towards her so

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Speaker 1: heavy like this?

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Speaker 2: Why did?

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of cases of people who

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Speaker 1: are accused of crimes, but something about Karen made her

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Speaker 1: people appealed to her.

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Speaker 2: Do you have an opinion about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because she's so transparently innocent. I mean, that's all

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Speaker 3: of this. It's just so obvious.

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Speaker 4: I don't defend people who are charged with murdering police.

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Speaker 4: I'm usually on the other side of that issue. Usually

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Speaker 4: I'm very pro police, and I still am. And I've

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Speaker 4: done a lot of articles exposing the opposite of this,

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Speaker 4: the weakness of our court system that allows cop killers

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Speaker 4: to be free in the first place. The profile of

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Speaker 4: a cop killer is always the same. It's somebody with

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Speaker 4: like one hundred and twenty five priors almost always, and

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Speaker 4: so this.

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Speaker 3: Didn't fit that description.

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Speaker 4: So like, for me to go out and defend somebody

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Speaker 4: who's accused of murdering a cop, you better believe there's

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Speaker 4: going to be overwhelming evidence to back that up. I

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Speaker 4: never would have jumped into this otherwise. It's just so

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Speaker 4: obvious the amount of evidence that she had in her

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Speaker 4: legal team. Ad showing that not only was she factually innocent,

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Speaker 4: but that other people were involved in murdering him.

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Speaker 3: Made me realize, Oh, this is I have to get

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Speaker 3: involved here. I have to do something. I have to

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Speaker 3: write about this.

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Speaker 4: And you know, the story had been going on for

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Speaker 4: about a year and a half, but it wasn't getting

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Speaker 4: any media coverage.

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Speaker 3: And that's what I'm good at.

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Speaker 4: You know, if I've been doing what I do now

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Speaker 4: for over a decade and I just started writing about it,

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Speaker 4: and I had a pretty large platform, and it just

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Speaker 4: grew and grew and grew from there.

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Speaker 1: When you think back to the trial, obviously, I mean

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Speaker 1: she was up against like a goliath, right, I mean

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Speaker 1: at the very beginning there was it did not I

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Speaker 1: mean I watched the documentaries of she was really up

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Speaker 1: against it and her legal defense was like it was

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Speaker 1: literally David and Goliath. How they turned the corner? Looking back,

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Speaker 1: When did you think to yourself, they're going to find

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Speaker 1: her innocent, Like they've done enough at this point where

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Speaker 1: the defense has actually done their job, Like, was there

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Speaker 1: a point or did you always think like she was

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Speaker 1: going to be found in this sent there's no question, Well, I.

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Speaker 4: Always felt she was going to be found innocent, no question,

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Speaker 4: until I did after the first trial, after the first

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Speaker 4: ended in a mistrial, I was convinced they were going

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Speaker 4: to deliver it for about five seconds, and because it

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Speaker 4: was just so obvious that she was innocent and these

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Speaker 4: people are all so shady and they're all lying, it

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Speaker 4: was just like, Okay, obviously they're going to quit her.

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Speaker 4: And then when they didn't and they came back hung,

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Speaker 4: I did what's called a journalism.

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Speaker 3: I went and found jurors.

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Speaker 4: The journalist was impounded, so you couldn't just find these

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Speaker 4: people on their own, but I asked around. I got names,

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Speaker 4: I got emails, and I started reaching out to them,

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Speaker 4: and I got this guy Ronnie to come on.

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Speaker 3: And Ronnie, as painful as it is to listen to

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Speaker 3: him and.

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Speaker 4: His explanation of what was happening in that jury room,

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Speaker 4: even though it's insanity the things that they were talking about,

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Speaker 4: it was still really important to hear because he was

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Speaker 4: Basically what he said was, we didn't pay any attention

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Speaker 4: to the conspiracy.

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Speaker 3: We thought that was a distractor.

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Speaker 4: We were focused on the data, the textream data from

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Speaker 4: the car, the fact that she was the one that

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Speaker 4: dropped them off there that she was drunk blah blah

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Speaker 4: blah blah, and that enabled Karen Reid's defense team to

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Speaker 4: read My interview with Ronnie enabled the Karen Reid team

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Speaker 4: to readjust their strategy and focus less on the conspiracy.

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Speaker 4: You didn't get that much in the second trial, and

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Speaker 4: more on John wasn't hit by a car, there was

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Speaker 4: no collision.

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Speaker 3: If there was no collision, then.

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Speaker 4: Karen Reid didn't do it, and it's not their job

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Speaker 4: to figure out who did.

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Speaker 3: Quite frankly right, and they blew that did so?

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Speaker 2: Do you so?

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Speaker 1: Like they didn't think about the dog bites or already

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Speaker 1: think that dog bite They thought that was a distraction.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's one of the things that Ronnie told me that,

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Speaker 4: like the dog thing was a distraction. That these are

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Speaker 4: all big distractions to take away from the fact that

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Speaker 4: she ran him over with the car. I mean, it

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Speaker 4: was it was painful to interview him, but as as

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Speaker 4: painful as that was, like, that's journalism, that's finding out

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Speaker 4: from these people who were in the room, what happened.

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Speaker 3: What did you guys discuss and no one else had

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Speaker 3: that scoop?

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's crazy. I didn't. Okay, I missed that story

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Speaker 2: that they thought that all.

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Speaker 1: Of this was was so they thought that even what

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Speaker 1: about the text from the cop talking about how she is,

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Speaker 1: how she looked, and were there any nudes or they

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Speaker 1: thought that was they thought that was abstraction.

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Speaker 4: Their basic takeaway with that was, Yeah, he's a scumbag,

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Speaker 4: he's not a good person, but it doesn't change the

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Speaker 4: fact that she had him with the car like that

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Speaker 4: was their takeaway, and that he got carried away because

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Speaker 4: he was so upset with this woman for killing John

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Speaker 4: O'Keefe that it was almost like understandable that he would

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Speaker 4: vent like this on his private cell phone.

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Speaker 1: What about what about the Okay, so I'm not from

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Speaker 1: Boston and from New York, but I do have relatives

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Speaker 1: from Lynn, Massachusetts. Lynn Lynn said, what is the feeling about?

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Speaker 1: But you hear people from that area talk about that

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Speaker 1: the police are corrupt? Why is that feeling palpable in

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Speaker 1: that area?

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Speaker 3: Uh? You know, I mean, just look at how easy

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Speaker 3: this was.

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Speaker 4: I Mean, the issue wasn't just we all know Michael

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Speaker 4: Proctor was a corrupt scumbag who's been fired, right, But

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Speaker 4: the issue is that Michael Proctor was protected that Michael.

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Speaker 3: Procter knew the mcalvert, McCabe's and the Alberts prior to this.

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Speaker 3: He lied about it.

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Speaker 4: He was so obviously lying on reports or whatever. And

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Speaker 4: you know, I used to be a high school teacher.

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Speaker 4: If another teacher was inappropriate with a student, we wouldn't

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Speaker 4: back them up. The union would sell you down the river,

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Speaker 4: like no one would have your back if you behave

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Speaker 4: inappropriately like that. But with police, it's different. It's like,

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Speaker 4: no matter what, they're gonna have your back. They just

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Speaker 4: and I understand it. I understand that, Like in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty with the Black Lives Matter riots or whatever, it

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Speaker 4: was like us against the world mentality, they're attacking us.

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Speaker 4: We got to stick together and that mentality. Because of that,

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Speaker 4: they do stick together to a fault, you know, to

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Speaker 4: a fault like I support the police, but not corrupt

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Speaker 4: police and not the police in this situation. And you know,

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Speaker 4: I do talk to a lot of cops about this

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Speaker 4: who are like, you know, they completely agree with me

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Speaker 4: that Karen ree was framed, that she didn't do it,

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Speaker 4: but they remained silent.

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Speaker 2: What is okay?

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Speaker 1: So that you became a lightning rod as well, which

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Speaker 1: is very rare for somebody who started. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: did start a movement. I don't know if Karen would

438
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: have had what she had without you, like her conviction.

439
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: Without you.

440
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: You really did change the course of this woman's life

441
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: and this case. But you became a lightning rod. Is

442
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: there anything that happened during the course's trial you personally

443
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: regret on your part or that? Because that got very heated.

444
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 1: I read some of the things that people were saying

445
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: about each other. Is there anything you feel like maybe

446
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: I went over the line, or maybe I didn't go

447
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: over line enough or anything.

448
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I went to jail.

449
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 4: I was arrested and charged and charged with god knows

450
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 4: how many counts of felony witness intimidation. But the things

451
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 4: that I did to get charged with that are not criminal.

452
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 4: They're only criminal in Massachusetts if it's if they interpret

453
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 4: the law a certain way. Like for instance, I went

454
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 4: up to Jennifer McCabe at her kid's lacrosse game, right

455
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 4: because it's the only place I could find her. I

456
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 4: knew her kid was playing across that day, so I

457
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 4: went to her game, and Bill and I took my

458
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 4: camera out and went up to her and I said, Jennifer,

459
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 4: why did you google how wanted Diane Cold?

460
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 3: Why did you do that at two twenty seven? Why

461
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: did you do that?

462
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 4: And it turned it to a scene and Matt McKay

463
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 4: pushed me, and you know, I got I left the

464
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 4: stadium on my own accord, and I got charged with

465
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 4: two counts of felony witnessed intimidation for that. That's what

466
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 4: used to be called journalism, like going up to people,

467
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 4: asking them the tough questions, getting in their face, not

468
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 4: taking no for an answer. But in Massachusetts, our statue

469
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 4: witness intimidation statue says that you cannot cause emotional, physical,

470
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 4: or financial harm to witnesses. Every other state it's physical.

471
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 4: I understand the need to say that. You can't threaten

472
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 4: to break someone's legs if they don't, you know, do

473
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 4: say what you want to say.

474
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 3: Understand. I get that. But the emotional aspect of this.

475
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 4: Every single person I've been charged with intimidating claims that

476
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 4: I caused them emotional harm, that I made them sad.

477
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 4: This is literally what they told the grand jury. He

478
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 4: made me I can't eat. Everybody thinks I'm a killer now,

479
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. He made me uncomfortable. I was embarrassed,

480
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 4: and this and that, not a single I haven't caused

481
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 4: a single cut, a scrape, a bruise, nothing to anybody.

482
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 4: I don't threaten people. I'm a reporter, I'm an activist.

483
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 4: I'm not a tough guy. So and if you see

484
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 4: Brian Albert, Bran Albert could eat me for lunch. You know,

485
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 4: I could eight one hundred and seventy pounds. Brian Albert's

486
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 4: like two fifty, you know, six foot two, two fifty.

487
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 4: He's a big boy, he's a marine. He could he

488
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 4: could destroy me if he wanted to. So this idea

489
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 4: that I'm intimidating these people is ridiculous. So to answer

490
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 4: your question, I wouldn't change anything. I mean, I wish

491
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 4: I wasn't arrested. I wish that didn't happen, but it did.

492
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 4: And I contend that I did nothing wrong.

493
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: I wish I was one seventy. It's good for you.

494
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: I all right, this is the question on everyone's mind.

495
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: I have to ask you this. What do you think

496
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: happened to John O'Keeffe.

497
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 4: I think he went inside that house after camer Reid

498
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 4: dropped him off. He was supposed to text her back

499
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 4: and say everything's cool here, you can go home, and

500
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 4: I'm all set. But I think he went that house

501
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 4: and a confrontation happened. We don't know with who. There's

502
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 4: many possible suspects. There's Brian Higgins, who had the motive

503
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 4: to do it because he was half an hour earlier flirting,

504
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 4: sending flirtatious text messages to his girlfriend. There is Colin Albert,

505
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 4: who was a punk who gets a lot of fights,

506
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 4: who had issues with John.

507
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 3: They were neighbors.

508
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 4: They threw beer cans on his lawn, disrespected him, and

509
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 4: they were all drunk. And so what I think is

510
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 4: he went in there, words were exchanged, punches were thrown,

511
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 4: and I think an accident happened. I think John felt

512
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 4: backwards during this fight after the dog bit him, because

513
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 4: you know, if Brian Alberts involved in the fight, the

514
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 4: dog's going to back him up.

515
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: Mean, that's ban the German shepherd, It's like their instinct.

516
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 4: And I think it dragged him down and I think

517
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 4: he hit his head on a stair and I think

518
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 4: it caused a three inch laceration in the back of

519
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 4: his head, and I think it knocked him out and

520
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 4: it made him unconscious and he was immediately incapacitated. According

521
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 4: to every who testified at that trial, that's what killed John,

522
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 4: the blunt impact to the back of the head. And

523
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 4: so I think that they realized that he was probably

524
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 4: convulsing be a puke on his box of shorts, and

525
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 4: I think they realized, we have a dying Boston cop

526
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 4: in our house.

527
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: This is really bad. What are we going to do?

528
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 4: And the plan was simple. I mean, people act like

529
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 4: this is so complicated. Just tell him the guy and

530
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 4: never came in a house. He never came in an house.

531
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 4: Just we're going to put him right outside where where

532
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 4: we last saw her car and then say, I don't

533
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,239
Speaker 4: know how Jesus Christ did she hit him?

534
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 3: What happened? Oh my god. I mean, it's just it's

535
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 3: such a simple story. You never came in the house.

536
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: And the big question I think everyone once knows what

537
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: else was in that house when they were there, because

538
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: what mean, yeah, usually you don't throw after parties at

539
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: twelve thirty in the morning just to have a few

540
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: more beers and watch finding Nemo.

541
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 4: You do if you're a functioning alcoholic, like a lot

542
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 4: of these people are. I mean, these are these are

543
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 4: grown ass adults having after parties.

544
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 3: You're You're absolutely right. It's a weird thing that I mean,

545
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 3: that's why he didn't want to go in.

546
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 4: She's a grown ass woman who was a financial analyst

547
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 4: of fidelity, you know, making a quarter million dollars a year.

548
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 3: She doesn't go to after parties at twelve thirty, you know.

549
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: On a weekday, right on a weekday.

550
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 3: It was a Friday night.

551
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: It was a Friday night. Okay, yeah, it's like a

552
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: holiday or something like that, was right, It was right

553
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 1: around the corner right after all it was.

554
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 4: It was a blizzard was happening, so a lot of

555
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 4: people were, you know, not going to work or whatever.

556
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 4: So like, yeah, so John, you know that was a

557
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: problem in the relationship is John liked to drink.

558
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 3: John liked to go out, and she was always stuck

559
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 3: with the kids.

560
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 4: And that that's why she left all those nasty voicemails

561
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 4: for him. Afterwards, She's like, I'm fucking suck at you.

562
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 4: You know, you're a fucking douchebag. I'm home with your

563
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 4: fucking kids again.

564
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: What the fuck?

565
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 4: Those are the exact type of voicemails you leave to

566
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 4: someone if you intend to see them again and chew

567
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 4: them out like that's not from me.

568
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 3: You till a dead person?

569
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was, There was.

570
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: There was this one comedian who was very much on

571
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: the side of Karen, but who said, in all the

572
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: true crime documentaries, usually you leave a message like can't

573
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: wait to see you, hope you're home soon.

574
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: And then you know st.

575
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: Peterson did that with Lacy. That's the exact voicemail.

576
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then meanwhile you're cleaning out their bank accounts

577
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: and you're moving their money around, but like you're leaving

578
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: the messages like I'm this innocent person and she was

579
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: at the scene again within I think three hours of

580
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: her or four hours when dropping him off or whatever

581
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: the case is, looking for him. Usually it's not the

582
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: pattern of somebody that as you say, you know, people

583
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: who kill cops usually have a long history and a

584
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: pattern to it. What are you going to do now

585
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: that the trial is over?

586
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: Well, I got going to soak it all in and.

587
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 4: I'm starting in a documentary that they're doing about me

588
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 4: with compelling pictures. We just announced that a major motion

589
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: picture has been greenlit for this. I'm going to be

590
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 4: speaking a crime con in September I'm going to be

591
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 4: writing a book, and then I'm going to be dealing

592
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 4: with my own legal issues, like I still have my

593
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 4: charges to deal with, a whole bunch of them. I'm

594
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 4: facing like one hundred and twenty years in prison when

595
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 4: you know it's never gonna happen, but theoretically could one.

596
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: Hundred and twenty years in prison for a while.

597
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 4: Each kind of fell any witness intimidation carries a ten

598
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 4: year maximum sentence. If they wanted to, they could throw

599
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 4: the book at me, you know. And these people are sick.

600
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 4: We've seen what they've done to Karen Reid. My lawyers

601
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 4: are not going to let that happen. I'm not going

602
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: to let that happen.

603
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: Obviously. I have two kids, they're seven and ten.

604
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 4: They need me, and I'm not going to allow the

605
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 4: state to take them away from me.

606
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 3: Period.

607
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: I know that she has a civil trial.

608
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: Still, do they just start from scratch now looking for

609
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: John o'keefs killer?

610
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

611
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: What do you think it'd be like a cold case.

612
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 4: They've already issued a statement saying that like this is

613
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 4: a shame, John deserved justice. Mcalverts have already issued a

614
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 4: statement too, and I'm sure that's all that they're going

615
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 4: to treat her like OJ or like Casey Anthony and

616
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 4: just say she got away with it, and that's the

617
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 4: excuse not to go after the people who actually did this.

618
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 4: But they know, like Karen Reid is going to Karen

619
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 4: Reid can go out anywhere in this state, in this

620
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 4: country really and be welcomed, And any restaurant in Boston

621
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,719
Speaker 4: she goes out to tonight, her meal is free. You know,

622
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 4: she's basically a quasi celebrity unintentionally, right. The mcalberts can't

623
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 4: do that. Mclberts go places and they get booed and

624
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 4: every they look at they have to look around and say,

625
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 4: who knows what we did? Like who here doesn't like us?

626
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 4: So that's the karma that they will have to live

627
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 4: with for the rest of their lives.

628
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: Okay, last question, where can people go to read more

629
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: about what you're doing? Where can they follow your cases

630
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: and your book and your movie and your speeches. You've

631
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: got a busier schedule than me, so where can people

632
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: go to continue follow? Yeah, I mean turtle boy is

633
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: so weird to say, turtle boy, you're you're a man,

634
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: but like what like what uh?

635
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 3: Doctor turtle Boys Doctor.

636
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: Turtle Boy where people go to keep following.

637
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 4: Jill Biden's a doctored and so am I That's what

638
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 4: That's why I started myself. That's my super handle is

639
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 4: at doctor Turtle Boy d O C t O or

640
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 4: turtle Boy. My website is TV as in Turtleboy DailyNews

641
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 4: dot com.

642
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: Uh and you can see me on YouTube Turtle Boy

643
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: Live Channel.

644
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: All right, Well, keep up with turta boy because I

645
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: guess there's a lot more coming out about the story

646
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: and about you. And I appreciate you being here and

647
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: giving me the interview.

648
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: My pleasure. Ryan, have a good night.

649
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: Hey, we'll be right back after this. Now for the

650
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: ask Me Anything segment of this podcast. I love getting

651
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: these emails. Please keep sending them. Ask me any kind

652
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,959
Speaker 1: of question. I could possibly answer the emails. Ryan at

653
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: Numbers gamepodcast dot com. Ryan at Numbers gamepodcast dot com. Okay,

654
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: first question readers, Hi, Ryan, what are your thoughts about

655
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: the quality of polling coming out showing a dramatic swing

656
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: in the favorite immigration enforcement and deportation among the wider

657
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: American population and especially the Hispanic community. I see a

658
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 1: lot of Twitter x post polls with comments like this

659
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: poll was almost accurate in twenty twenty four. However, I

660
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: think that the kind of polling for a straightforward binary

661
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: election is very different than polling on an issue in

662
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: which respondents our positions are very nuanced. The data can

663
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: be impacted by how the question is worded. That is

664
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: one hundred percent tru of. By the way, do these

665
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: high quality polls for twenty four necessarily translate to how

666
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: the polling issues are set? And we're asking now? Also,

667
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you have following European politics. Do you

668
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: follow TLDR news in the EU? Best regards, love the podcast,

669
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: Robert diaz Arista.

670
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: I hope I'm pronouncing your last time.

671
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: Correctly, but Robert, thank you so much for sending me

672
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: the email. I don't follow TLDR, but I will check

673
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: them out at your suggestion.

674
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: Thank you. Okay.

675
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: On the polling, so yes, it is a lot based

676
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: on how the question is asked. But I think when

677
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: you're asking in such generalities, when they're not asking specifically

678
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: do you want to do this policy or do with

679
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: that policy? And there's a full nuanced connection. First of all,

680
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: in polling, there's something called a leading question. Right, if

681
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: I sit there and say, Tom, Dick and Harry are

682
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: all child molestors. Would you want them to live at

683
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: your house next to your house with your four year

684
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: old child. That's a leading question, right, You're you're giving

685
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,239
Speaker 1: the information ahead of time to affect the answer that

686
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: you want. So pay attention to that when the questions

687
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: are being asked to have an informed pole. The question

688
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: of immigration in the broad terms, right, is more specific

689
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: to the time that we live in, in the moment

690
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: that we live in then in the than in like

691
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: the actual policy of how people are carrying it out right,

692
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: Because the polling around immigration enforcement and immigration reduction specifically

693
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: was mounting before even the midterms of twenty twenty two,

694
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: Like that number was changing well before that even started changing,

695
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: like really during COVID, where people felt that they felt

696
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: threatened by a lot of changes. Some of it was legitimate,

697
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: some of it was not legitimate. But that has started

698
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: that change. I want to take you back in time

699
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: for a second. If you look at the Gallop polling,

700
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: which goes back to nineteen sixty five, that's the that

701
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: LBJ fundamentally altered the way we have legal immigration. A

702
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: plurality of Americans wanted the system to stay as is,

703
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: And what that tells me is that they never really

704
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: thought about immigration because it wasn't that big of a deal.

705
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: There weren't that many immigrants coming to our country between

706
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight and nineteen sixty five. We had a

707
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: basic immigration moratorium for forty years. Then illegal immigration after

708
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five starts ticking up, and there is a

709
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: demographic change of who's coming to our country. Before in

710
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, the immigrants had to reflect the current population.

711
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: So because the immigration was mostly Western Europe, all immigrants

712
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: were mostly Western Europe, we weren't bringing in Africans and

713
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: Chinese and all the rest of them. Right, So the

714
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: number starts ticking up of people who want lower levels

715
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: of immigration as both demographics change, because mass change in

716
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: demographics is oftentimes correlated with a declining social trust, and

717
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: as illegal immigration changes, then it all comes together. In

718
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, Reagan does his amnesty and sixty five

719
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: five percent of Americans at that point want legal immigration reduced,

720
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: any legal immigration stop. It's a mood in the country

721
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: that stayed with the majority for over a decade throughout

722
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: Clinton's entire presidency. Now when Clinton was present, over a

723
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: million illegal aliens were coming to our country every year.

724
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: They were pouring through. In the mid nineties, Clinton works

725
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: with Congress from Barbara Jordan and the Republicans in Congress

726
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: to create a bunch of immigration enforcement. The numbers start

727
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: ticking down as far as illegal immigration comes in, and

728
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: then by like the late nineties, the number of people

729
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: saying they want immigration reduce falls from a majority for

730
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 1: the first time since the eighties, right for over a decade,

731
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: and then what happens nine to eleven. Obviously that would

732
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,919
Speaker 1: cause people to say, we need to bring things in home.

733
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: We need to stop you know what we're doing as

734
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: far as immigration, We need to focus on us. The

735
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: percentage of people who want immigration reduced spikes to fifty

736
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: eight percent after nine to eleven. That dwindles over time.

737
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: There's no more terrorist attacks, and terrorism becomes in people's

738
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: minds what they're thinking about when they're thinking about people

739
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: coming to our country right after nine to eleven, justifiably,

740
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: so that's what you would think of when you're thinking

741
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: of safety and threats from the outside of the country.

742
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: So that stay is of plurality until twenty nineteen. That's

743
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: the third year of the Trump presidency and is the

744
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: very first time and only time on record, that a

745
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 1: plurality of Americans actually favor more legal immigration than less

746
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: legal immigration. Because during that time, the beginning of the

747
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: Great Awokening, when liberals probably became woke and hating Trump

748
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: was their ideology and their religion. To want more immigrants

749
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: was to show that you hate Trump. So the number

750
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: of liberals, who traditionally had a lot of them wanting

751
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: to say will want less immigration plummets. They all want

752
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: mass more immigration, and it hits thirty two percent in

753
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen one more legal immigration. Then Joe Biden becomes president,

754
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: the floodgates open, and the number of people who want

755
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: less immigration is hits its highest points since nine to

756
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: eleven and fifty five percent, and that was in June

757
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four.

758
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: So, yes, the quality of this polls matter.

759
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: But what I look for when I look at these

760
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: kinds of issues like abortion, gay marriage. You know, let's

761
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: take gay marriage for example. A number of poles from

762
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: Pere Research to you know, I don't know, I think

763
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 1: it was morning Console whatever.

764
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 3: Morning.

765
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 2: Const's a pretty low level.

766
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: Poll, but they all showed that there is a downtick

767
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: in the number of Americans who support gay marriage. If

768
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,439
Speaker 1: it was just one pole, I would say it's it's

769
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: they must asked the question weird or whatever. But is

770
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: a genuine change, especially among younger conservative people who I think,

771
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: I honestly believe it's a transgender issue which is turning

772
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: them away from gay marriage. But that is a real

773
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: thing that's really happening. As far as how we feel

774
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: as a country, the immigration story has ticked up significantly,

775
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: especially because of how Joe Biden governed this country. So yeah,

776
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be so obsessed with this one. Was this

777
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: pole the most accurate or this one was the least

778
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: accurate or whatever, look.

779
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: At the over arching story.

780
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: Cato Institute did his poll and I think twenty twenty two,

781
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: and Kato, I mean, they would turn our country into

782
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: Uganda if they could. They did a poll showing sixty

783
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: five or sixty eight percent of Americans wanted immigration reduced.

784
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: That was legal immigration reduced, because we taken one point

785
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 1: two million per year. And it's a mass demographic change.

786
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: Even when I was a kid. You know, I'm I'm

787
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: middle aged now at thirty eight, but I'm not seventy eight.

788
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

789
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: It was not like I'm like, you know, sitting there

790
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: saying back in my day, although I do say that

791
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: all the time to my Zoomer employees. Anyway, That's what

792
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: I That's what I have to say about it. The

793
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: overarching narrative from all these poles are saying the same

794
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: thing or around most of these polls, and that is

795
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: the bigger thing than whether or not one or two

796
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: polls are sitting there in saying don't worry about the

797
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: accuracy of that versus like the horse race. That matters

798
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: with the horse race issue. When it comes to the

799
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: overall question, if they're all saying the same thing or

800
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: most are saying this one trajectory over time, and it's building,

801
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: it's building, it's building, it's probably accurate and politicians should

802
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: look at that. As I've said in this whole entire rant,

803
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: a majority of Americans for most of my lifetime, since

804
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, even predating that in nineteen eighty six,

805
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: have won of the lower levels of legal immigration. And

806
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: all our politicians have done is increased legal immigration. Have

807
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: they actually in the eighties or nineties reduced legal immigration

808
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: and the fear of mass immigration demographically changing our country

809
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: wasn't present. And have they not done the Iraq War,

810
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: in the World Trade Organization with China and opening China

811
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: those you know, those little three things. Donald Trump would

812
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: probably never have been president because the issues he ran

813
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: on would have never been issues.

814
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 2: But they were.

815
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: Sold on neoliberalism, full boogie, and that's why they got

816
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: the man that they hate the most. Anyway, I hope

817
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Okay, but thank you for your email.

818
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 2: I love them. Is on them.

819
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: Our next and last question for the day comes from

820
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: Wade to Bosh. How do you feel about quote unquote

821
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: abundance and point based immigration? Please interview Tristan Hopper. I

822
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: don't know who Tristan Hopper is. I will look him

823
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: up and maybe interview him. If he's not crazy, Okay,

824
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: maybe he's related a dentist opera. It'd be great if

825
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: we coun talk about his movies for a whole segment.

826
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 2: Okay.

827
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: The abundance I think he's talking about this book by

828
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: Ezra Klin and Derek Thompson. Abundance is like the stupidest

829
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: slogan for politics that, of course only people who don't

830
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: actually work in politics they just write about it would

831
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: think of. It talks about how the need to reregulate

832
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: everything from like housing to energy to have a prosperous society.

833
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: And it's mostly Elbert letter to liberals about how like

834
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: you can win people back by saying, you know, we're

835
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: going to make things affordable by just building everywhere. That

836
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: was my read a bit anyway, Maybe I'm reading it wrong,

837
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: but I don't think I am the it was. You

838
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: could clearly tell one it's written by people who don't

839
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: work in politics, because I think abundance is a very

840
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: stupid phrase. It's not it's not I don't think it's interesting.

841
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a tagline people going to rally around.

842
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: And secondly, it's a you could tell it's written by

843
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: people who have never truly loved a place.

844
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 2: Right.

845
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: I love the neighborhood I grew up and I really

846
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: really love it. I know every street, I could read

847
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: them like the back of my hand. I spent most

848
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: of my life there as of now, and I don't

849
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: want I don't want mass housing there. It's mostly one

850
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: in two family homes and makes a community. I know

851
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: that I know the people I know. I don't need

852
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: a train station in there. I'm good like we can

853
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: make things a little better, we can improve on the margins.

854
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: But I love it, and I don't want to see

855
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: it becomes something completely different for the sake of wealthy

856
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: yuppies moving there or foreigners moving there. I and when

857
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: you love someplace, preserving it becomes as important as making

858
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: it affordable, right, making it affordable while preserving certain characteristics

859
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: that keep a community together. My other problem with it

860
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: is they approach the issue of affordability from a demand

861
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: issue and not from a sorry, from a supply issue,

862
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: not a demand issue. Yes, Laguna Beach, California, beautiful beach

863
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: community has a demand problem, right, I'm sorry, a supply problem.

864
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 1: They only have so many homes to keep it this way,

865
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: So why not just shove apartment buildings everywhere and everyone

866
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: could live there. The question is not so much just

867
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: the supply as the demand, the demand for energy, the

868
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: demand for housing, the demand for space would not be

869
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: so large if we did not bring in one point

870
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: two million people in this country every year. Legally, that's

871
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: just the fact there's only so much room. There's only

872
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: so much space, and the more credible people's space is

873
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: the less inclined they are to have their own children,

874
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: or to afford their own home, or to grow up.

875
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: All these things feed into each other. So it's a

876
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: very neoliberal idea. It's like saying, like, why don't we

877
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: just open up China to the world's economy, and then

878
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: they'll want to be the democracies.

879
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: Just like we are. It's it's it shows no foresight

880
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: into the future of problems that that would create.

881
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 1: Do you want to live in a box just because

882
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: you can get a nice view, maybe you will. I

883
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: don't think that that's true for a lot of people.

884
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: I think they want to own something that they could

885
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: live in, and I think they want to be part

886
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: of a community if they can. They're all looking for

887
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: this authenticity that they feel like they belong somewhere, and

888
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: it's hard when you live in a crowded, little cramp space.

889
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that they want to live like in

890
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: parts of China that people like literally live in a cubicle.

891
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: I just I just don't see it. And I don't

892
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: think that that abundance argument works. I don't think it's compelling,

893
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: and I think it's a bad political tagline anyway, Okay,

894
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: and the points based system on immigration. I generally favor it,

895
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: but I want overall immigration numbers reduced. I would like

896
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: a moretatorium for a period of time, and then overall

897
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: numbers reduced to one to two hundred thousand a year,

898
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: which are historical numbers based on a point system. Immigrants

899
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: should be better than us. They shouldn't be worse or

900
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: as good. We should want the best in the brightest

901
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: of the world, the cream of the world, not your

902
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: average Joe. And I know that can bring up a

903
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: lot of hurt feelings, but that is what I want.

904
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: We should always pursue immigrants who are better than the norm,

905
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: not at or below the norm. So that's why I'm

906
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: supportive of a point based system, but I want overall

907
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: immigration numbers reduced. You cannot have a twenty first century

908
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: economy with the twentieth century immigration policy. Okay, that's my

909
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: rant for today. We will be back on Monday. I

910
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: appreciate you. I hope you like this little true crime episode.

911
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: It's definitely different. Please like and subscribe to this podcast

912
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening. You can listen the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

913
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.

914
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 2: I'll be back next week. I hope you will too,

915
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: Thanks