WEBVTT - Relevancy 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.600 Rita Newcomb is somebody we've known about since the arrests 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.320 were made in this case back in November of twenty eighteen, 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.920 and Rita is Angela Wagner's mother. She claimed that Angela 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.919 told her that if you don't do this, they're going 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:21.040 to hurt me. Can you imagine your daughter is basically 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.040 begging you not to turn her in, and then you 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.400 come to find out that she's essentially bringing you into 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:32.519 a murder investigation and leaving you under the bus. You 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:34.680 know a lot of times in this case, it feels 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.240 like they're doing more to convict Jake and Angela than 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.720 they are George. We've are in custody of his son. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:53.160 What did he want you teach? You get custody? This 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:58.920 is The Pipes and Massacre Season four, episode sixteen Relevancy. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.920 I'm Courtney Armshan, the television producer at Katie Studios with 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.680 Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. We're picking up after last 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:11.600 episode's testimony from Chris Newcomb, Angela Wagner's half brother and 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.360 uncle to George and Jake Wagner. On the stand now 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.480 is Chris Newcomb's partner, Miranda Hughes. She opted out of 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.480 video recording, but allowed audio recording of her testimony. It's 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.080 important to note that George Wagner the fourth has pleaded 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.720 not guilty on accounts ass as his father Billy Wagner, 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:34.319 whose trial is upcoming. Thank you. Christ would call Randa Hughes, 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.800 good morning. How are you nervous? You get that a 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:46.400 lot from that chair. Miranda opted out of being videotaped, 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.920 but allowed her verbal testimony to be recorded. Randa echoed 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.560 much of Chris Newcomb's testimony about Jake and George Wagner's 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:59.600 disconcerting die job. Were there any conversations about that at 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.400 that time when you saw them with their hair dyed? Yes? 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.120 And what was that? Well that? Why did they do it? 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.359 And Jake said he wanted to look like I think 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:14.600 it's name Norman reads. Norman readers, Yeah, I told him 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.959 he was far from that. But both JP and George 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.440 had their hair come yes, okay? And did you know 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:26.919 who dyed their hair? Angela? And after the homicides, did 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:32.040 that fact that they had dyed their hair cause you 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.959 to think something? Yes? Okay? And what was that? Made 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.920 me worry? Why? Because why would you change your parents? 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.040 And then something like that happened. Randa also backed up 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:49.400 Chris's claims about George's desire for a clock pistol. Was 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:55.720 there ever a time weird you were present for hoping 0:02:55.760 --> 0:03:10.080 to obtain a forty caliber clock for George? Ye? Sure? Okay, 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:17.840 Well I'm an overly objection. Do you answer stand leading questions? 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.880 Can you tell us about that? Yeah? He asked Chris 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.520 if he knew of anybody that had a glock? Had 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:31.840 Chris said that he didn't know of anybody at the moment, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.840 but that he could look for him. And when Chris 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.480 found one, I think George wanted it. So we met 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.040 up with the guy. But George wanted us to go 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.080 because Chris had been the one talking to him. Okay, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.480 And did you accompany Chris? Yes? Okay? And do you 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.080 remember where you met up with this individual? I don't 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:53.560 know exactly where. I just knew it was a park 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:58.000 and ride. Randa also made some revealing statements about how 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.880 George and Jake asked her and Chris ncam to secure 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.560 custody of their kids in case they went to prison 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:12.120 after the Wagoners were charged in these offenses. Did they 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.960 want you and Chris to do certain things? Yes, regarding 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.880 custody of his son. What did he want you to do? 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:27.560 Get custody? Get custody? Okay? And how do you know 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:32.920 that because I asked? Okay, Well, George asked. Okay, George asked, 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.320 and did anybody else ask you? Yes? Who else? Angela 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:42.359 and Jake? Okay, they all three asked you, guys to 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:47.560 try to get custody of yes, correct, And did you 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.240 get an attorney to do that? Yes? But once the 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:55.480 Wagoners were arrested, Chris and Randa abandoned their custody efforts. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.760 Here's Stephanie and Jeff. This is the very first time 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.799 I'm personally hearing that George and Angela and Jake wanted 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.039 Chris and Randa to be the guardians of the children. 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.240 And of course, you know, if you're getting arrested and 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.000 going away from murder, you would want your close family 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.120 member to have custody of your child. But you know, 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.599 at least one of the children George's in this case 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:21.159 had a mom who could have raised him. That being said, though, 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.719 George had told Chris and Randa that he wanted them 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.760 to have custody, and they were apparently pushing for that 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.520 until they actually met Tabby and realized that she was 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:32.320 not who George had made her out to be. She 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.880 was actually a good mom and a nice person, and 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.920 George's son had a nice life with her. So they 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.520 dropped any efforts to get custody of the children after Jake, George, 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.480 and Angela and Billy were finally arrested, and for whatever reason, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.760 the Wagners believed that they were the only people who 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.320 could raise their children and the only people that should 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.320 be raising their children. But it seems like ultimately Chris 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.520 and Randa disagreed, and I still don't think we're getting 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.760 the full explanation as to why that is, other than 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.120 that the Wagoners simply wanted to control these children. Forensic 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.320 investigator Joseph Scott Morgan sheds late on the place of 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.120 Randy Hughes's testimony in the trial. With Hughes, you know, 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:19.680 she kind of had an insight into their world that 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.760 not many other people had. I think, you know, you 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.600 kind of get to to peek under the covers a 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:28.680 little bit with her. You got to see kind of 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.000 some of the insights as it applied to custody issues 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.040 and kids, and you know, that was the big thing 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.159 you know, because that goes to motive, I think, and 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.640 we have to understand that. I think a lot of 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:47.120 people are mistaken when they think about prosecution. Prosecution does 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.120 not have proved motives. That's not what the purpose of 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.839 this is. However, it does go to getting a feel 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.880 for what family dynamic was like of the familial environment. 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.120 I think that's that's very significant, and you know, it's 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.360 thrilled as we get about hearing people talk about forensics 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.640 and getting down into the nuts and bolts of things. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.600 I don't think that it is as significant as you know, 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.160 being able to get an peak into this world. In 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.040 his cross defense, attorney Richard Nash tried to pin the 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.200 fascination with The Walking Dead on Jake. He was the 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.000 one who modeled his killings after the show's lead character, 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.280 not George the man on child. And there was some 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:34.280 discussion speaking of hair color. Jake had told you that 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.480 I think he wanted to look like Norman reads. Yes, 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.920 and Norman Redis is he the main character in the 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.320 Walking Day He's kind of one of the main characters 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.800 of The Walking Dead. Yes, and Jake had a fascination 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.920 with Norman. Yes, Okay, I saw you really give me 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:56.080 a positive response to that. And you've watched The Walking Dead, Yes, 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.280 I have, and so your familiarity with the movie. Yeah, 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:06.960 how they shoot him in the head. The jury also 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.840 heard about the tattoos that Billy, George, and Jake got 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.040 after the murders. Jake got one of flaming pistols on 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.840 his upper arms. Billy and George's were a bit more 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:20.960 problematic again, and Geanette after the homicides, you know, about 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.520 a month and a half later or so, June to 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.400 twenty seventeen, he and Jake and George went in they 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:32.760 got tattoos. Billy's tattoo is a scorpion with eight notches 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.720 on it, and the prosecution thinks that that holds some significance. 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.400 We have eight victims in this case, and a scorpion, 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.480 which can be fatal is on his right finger, which 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.000 could be his trigger finger if he's right handed, and 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:54.240 he's got this tattoo with you know, signifying something that 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.160 can be deadly on his hand. George, on the other hand, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.200 has something that's an eight ball inside a skeleton's mouth 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:08.440 with some aces on the sides playing cards. Aces. I'm 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:10.760 not you know, I don't know if it's a coincidence. 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.360 I don't. Obviously, the prosecution feels like it's significant and 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.720 it's relevant that the number eight is common in these tattoos. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.480 A scorpion with eight abdominal segments, a skull binding down 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.480 on an eight ball eight mode instead. Some people see 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:31.280 the correlation. Others wonder why it's admissible. It's kind of 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.200 strange because we, I guess the judge is letting the 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.959 jury look at this and see if it's relevant. I mean, 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.080 it's up to the jury to determine whether or not 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.760 the tattoos are relevant. I'm not sure, you know, I 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:46.760 could see the scorpion being relevant, possibly the eight ball 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:48.960 in the skeleton's mouth. I think we just have to 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.680 wait to see how the testimony plays out. Joseph Morgan 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.480 is more dubious. I would have said that years ago 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.960 the tattoos may have carried more weight. I think I'm 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.400 recalling them my mind, you know, uh, you know, being 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:06.679 for instance, in the Morgue, I remember a couple of 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:11.080 cases where I had people who were legitimately folks that 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.079 had worked as assassins in prison. They wanted up dying 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.559 when they finally get on the outside, and they have 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.400 the tear drop tattoos. You know, you always knew that 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.120 point somebody that had committed a homicide, you had to 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.160 chepot crosses on the hands that you know, there's little 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.400 crosses with the little radiating lines that you know you 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.240 can tell somebody's a drug dealer or an arm stealer, 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.760 or they're an assassin. They used to tell these tales. 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:38.079 But you know the problem is people use tattoos now 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.200 to try to create an image for themselves. Maybe you 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.640 can get a tattoo expert to pop up on stand 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.120 and say, oh, yeah, based on the structure of this thing, 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:50.400 this is generally associated with people that are, you know, 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.240 involved in this type of behavior, particularly if you're talking 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.760 about gangs and whatnot. But you know, you can say 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.320 that all day long. I mean, I've seen some pretty 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:05.280 horrific things. Images of these tattoos that people walk around 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.800 in public with I don't make a killer. It just 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:14.280 means that they've got an interest in this interesting art 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.160 that they're willing to put on their body in display 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.640 to the rest of the world. But that doesn't make 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:26.160 you a perpetrator in a homicide. The jury also heard 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.400 heart stirring testimony from Rita Newcombe, Angela Wagner's mother and 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:35.120 Jake and George's grandmother. Nwcombe declined video or audio recording 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:39.600 of her testimony. Petite with Dirty blondeire Nucomb is a 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.760 devout Christian who wrestled with her daughter's actions after the 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:48.360 murders Stephanie and Jeff. Rita wasn't tears when she testified 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.200 about how she initially lied to investigators to protect her 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:55.760 daughter and quote her grand babies, but then she soon 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.480 came clean because of her faith in God, and of 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.760 course once the Wagners became actual suspects steph. What I 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.280 find interesting is that Rita Newcome falsely told agents with 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.199 the Ohio BCI that she had signed these custody documents 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.560 involving George and Jake's children as a notary public. Rita 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:19.000 basically testified in court saying that Angela said to her, look, mom, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.480 if you don't admit this, they're going to really hurt 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.439 me and possibly even kill me. And that's a brutal 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.600 spot to be And can you imagine your daughter is 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.920 basically begging you not to turn her in, and then 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.120 you come to find out that she's essentially bringing you 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.960 into a murder investigation and leaving you under the bus. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.040 She continues to describe the worst days of her life 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:44.040 were the eight days that she spent behind bars again. 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:49.800 Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, I think that Rita being 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:55.920 in the midst of this just tautanic storm. There's part 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.160 of me, if you can, if anybody can, feel kind 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.439 of sorry for anybody that's been associated with with these 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.400 horrible deeds. I think that, you know, I would list 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:10.440 probably more toward Rita newcom in this um. You know, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.160 she's involved in this with her child. She's born witness 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.600 to everything Angela has ever been involved in. I think 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.839 that most parents will try to do anything that they 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:23.079 possibly could in order to help their child. I think 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.040 early on that people assume that this was a broad 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:30.640 ranging conspiracy, and immediately they associated Rita with it, that 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.880 she was part and parcel. They almost had her sitting 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.160 at the kitchen table. Now, I just I just don't 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.760 see that that that was the case, you know, relative 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.400 to to to these homicides. And if we are to 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.400 believe that that Angela is the controlling person, you know, 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.000 this manipulative, you know, kind of Sungali like character that 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.760 you know has sway over the entire family and how 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.000 things are going to be done if Angela is that person. 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:03.400 Did Rita perceive her daughter has maybe potentially you know, 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.480 going to do harm to her, or she would have 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.040 money do harm to her, And that's what makes that 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:14.040 all the mores. We're going to take a break. We'll 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:24.280 be back in a moment. Rita Newcomb spoke extensively about 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:29.880 her family's legacy of abuse again long Crimes Angeanette Levy. 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.600 Rita Newcomb is somebody we've known about since the arrests 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.320 were made in this case back in November of twenty eighteen, 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.960 and Rita is Angela Wagner's mother. She claimed that Angela 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:47.040 told her that, you know, if you don't, if you 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.440 don't do this, they're going to hurt me. We never 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.840 got a clarification on who they are that she said, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.480 they will hurt me if you don't say you did this. 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.520 She also talked about how you know, she had been 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.440 married to Angela's father of course at Carter and he 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.480 was abusive to both of them, I mean physically abusive, 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:11.440 and Angela had actually gone into the Air Force at eighteen. 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.280 She wanted to get away from you or bad and 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.040 this whole thing. And we found out that Angela left 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:22.240 the Air Force early allegedly because she was sexually assaulted 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:27.040 and it was never investigated or reported. According to Rita, 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.760 I find it interesting given the fact that the motive 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:35.400 for these murders allegedly was protecting and the spear that 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.640 the little girl might be molested. So it makes you wonder, 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:44.280 is that were this concern about sexual assault or sexual 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.520 abuse where it originated was with Angela's time in the 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.720 Air Force. So I guess we'll find out as the 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.000 case progresses. But she talked about not liking Billy Wagner. 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:00.000 I would think that seeing a woman who's seventy plus 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.680 us sitting up there crying and reliving this and admitting 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.520 to lying for her daughter. But I would think the 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.000 jury would take that very seriously. But again, this is 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.360 George's trial, not Angela's trial. But still it paints a picture. 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.880 You know, it seems like Angelo Wagner has just been 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:24.160 painted as the ultimate villain in this story. In this trial, 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.480 I mean, nobody, nobody says anything nice about Angelo Wagner 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:33.320 in this case. The jury also heard from two PCI 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.800 forensics experts, one with Special Agent Brian White, who searched 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.560 the Wagner's property in June of twenty seventeen. He's now 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:45.040 a lieutenant with the Madison County Sheriff's Office in Central Ohio. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:51.160 Special Prosecutor Andrew Wilson questioned him on the stand and 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.680 who's altu to swear a reform as the testimony were 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:55.920 about to get the trus the whole tings and nothing 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:01.200 about Thank you Anna a nice loud voice. Can you 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.000 introduce yourself again to the journey. My name is Brian White. 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.720 I'm a lieutenant with the Masson County share selves. When 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.440 you were out there searching that area of two sixty 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:18.880 Peon Road June fourteenth, June fifteenth, twenty seventeen, did ultimately 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.000 you find pieces of evidence that you collected and took 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.960 it into customer, Yes we did. And Une fourteenth, June 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.919 fifteenth during that search, did you also have Matt White 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.600 out there with you, who was from the lab. Yes, 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.240 we did, and explain what his role was or what 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:41.199 he did that day whatever. If we would find something 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.960 that was firearms related through shifting, whether it be a 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.320 casing or bullet or whatever, Matt would take a look 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.760 at it, and then he would put it in. He 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:57.040 would basically separate him out and to different characteristics or 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:02.679 calibers or whatever. Okay, I'm gonna hand you what's been 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.640 marked for didification purposes. I stick to give it SS five. 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.200 Can you tell us what's in? I stick to give 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:14.720 it SS five. That's a fire cartridge case two two 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:19.120 three caliber collected June fourteenth and fifteen, twenty seventeen, two 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.560 sixty Peterson Road. It's got my name on it, my initials. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.600 And again, is there a two two three firearm listed 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:36.600 on A two? Yes, there's the Wagner's two sixty Peterson 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.359 Road property, which was owned by Jake is thirteen miles 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.239 from where the roads were executed. It was at this 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.760 location that White recovered twenty two caliber shell case things 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.080 that matched the ones found at the crime scene. The 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.640 Wagners were in Alaska at this time. On the Peterson 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.919 Road property, a second barn was mid construction, possibly the 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:02.440 bc I suspected to cover up evidence again and Ginette 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:07.159 in June to twenty seventeen BCI. This was after the 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:11.560 Wagners had moved to Alaska. Went back to the Peterson 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.479 Road property where the Wagners had lived. They had sold 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:19.000 it in May of twenty seventeen, a month prior, and 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.960 Brian White, it was like the lead crime scene agent 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.720 on this case, and he said that they went back 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.439 there with ground penetrating radar, just looking to see if 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.679 there was anything buried underneath there, under the ground of 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.439 evidentiary value. I mean, at this point in time, they 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.920 were still looking for murder weapons. The lead BCI agent, 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.600 Ryan Scheier, said there was a new barn that was 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.760 being built and constructed on the Peterson Road property at 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.280 the time of the homicides. Really, I mean part of 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:52.760 the barn had been erected and it was under construction 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.440 at the time of the homicides. And after the homicides, 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.840 and so BCI had gotten the new owners to tech 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:05.160 and talk with Jake about this, which stimulated some conversation, 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.080 if you would about it. It got George to call Angela. 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.600 They discussed it, and Angela was very concerned about which 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:15.600 barn they were searching, you know, which barne She kept asking, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.080 So they were concerned about the property being searched. And 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.359 George sounded like he was the one in charge, like 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.359 he was the go between, you know, asking Jake. You know, hey, Jake, 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.000 which Barne is it? Cause Angela wanted to know which 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:34.200 barn So it sounded like George was very much the boss, 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:40.080 and in that conversation at least BCI criminal intelligence analyst 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:44.360 Julia Evislage also took the stand. She intercepted the Wagner's 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.280 cell phone conversations and also monitored their social media activity. 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.440 The Wagoners and the Rodents had volleyed Facebook blocks back 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:58.240 and forth, revealing potential grudges, focusing on Hannah Rodin's Facebook 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:00.960 and as previously mentioned, she was not currently friends with 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.600 Jake Wagner. From prior posts or messaging, they were at 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:06.879 one point friends, but they weren't at the time of 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:12.920 the return. She had blocked George Wagner's profile and Angela 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:17.879 had blocked Hannah Rodin's. There was an assortment of relationships 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.680 between Tabitha's profiles, as there are a number of them, 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:26.320 but Hannah Rodin and Tabitha's most recent account we're friends 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.880 at the time of the return, but in a world 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.040 where people block each other routinely online, it's hard to 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.240 know how much weight to give someone pressing a button 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.920 on Facebook. And Jeanette I guess if there's some big 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.600 feud going on and the families are warring with one another, 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:44.960 of course you would have somebody blocked. Or maybe you 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.320 just block somebody because you don't want them snooping on 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:51.320 your Facebook, or maybe you just don't want that person 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:53.320 in your business. I don't know. I thought it was 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.760 strange that George, who claimed Frankie was a good friend, 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:58.960 or at least his attorneys have claimed that Frankie was 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.359 a good friend, that he had had Frankie blocked, He 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.680 had Hannah May blocked. You know, all these different people 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.480 had each other blocked. Is it indicative of somebody carrying 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.199 out out a homicide? I guess it could be, But 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.520 as far as like who who did what, or who 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.720 planned and covered up, I mean, I'm not sure it's 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:23.240 that relevant. Julia e. A Slage also played the court 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.480 of fascinating intercept of George Wagner on the family's journey 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.840 to Alaska. I thought Julia of A Slage's testimony was interesting. 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:35.040 When we got to hear George Wagner. You know, it 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.399 was really the first time we'd or one of the 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:39.640 first times, I should say that we heard his voice 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:42.840 and we heard that he can become quite agitated. It 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.080 was after the family had been stopped at the border 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.960 in Montana and interrogated, and he was putting his son 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.840 in the car, and he was telling his little boy, 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.920 who was a toddler at this time, those people back 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.920 there that fed you and played with you there liars. 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:05.199 They're bad people. They want to kill us. And the 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:07.879 little boy was saying no, no, no, you know, and 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.720 things like that. And I'm just sinking to myself as 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:14.000 I'm listening to this. This is a grown man talking 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:18.600 to his child who's a toddler and telling this child 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.880 that the people they just saw at the border were 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:24.119 trying to kill them. And I just found that to 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:29.040 be so strange and unbelievable. I couldn't believe that someone 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:34.919 would talk to a toddler like that. We're going to 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:44.960 take a break. We'll be back in a moment. As 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:48.199 the round of testimony wrapped up, some observers thought there 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.600 was still an underwhelming amount of evidence against George Wagner. 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:55.399 You know, a lot of times in this case, it 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:59.040 feels like they're doing more to convict Jake and Angela 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.560 than they are Orge. No granted, George is not the 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:06.280 main player in this case. The jury really just has 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.880 to determine whether there's enough evidence to show that George 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:15.280 was part of a conspiracy to commit and cover up murders. 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:18.800 Eight murders. So that's really what they have to prove. Yeah, 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:22.240 we all want to know, like the details. The only 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.520 thing I can see is that they somehow had it 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:28.080 in their minds and it almost seemed like a circular 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:30.560 thing that they were all feeding off each other, thinking 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:32.960 they were the only ones who could raise these kids 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.720 in the way they wanted them raised, whatever way that was. 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:40.240 I mean, it just sounds like it was a very 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:47.119 insular life with a lot of yelling too. More on 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:51.320 that next time. For more information on the case and 0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:56.119 relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:00.440 The Piked and Maskers produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:05.720 Alan Wieter, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:11.360 Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tua, Music by Jared Aston. 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:14.480 The Piked in Masaker is a production of iHeartRadio and 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:18.320 Kati Studios. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit 0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:22.800 the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:23.800 your favorite shows.