1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Rita Newcome is somebody we've known about since the arrests 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: were made in this case back in November of twenty eighteen, 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: and Rita is Angela Wagner's mother. She claimed that Angela 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: told her that if you don't do this, they're going 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: to hurt me. Can you imagine your daughter is basically 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: begging you not to turn her in, and then you 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: come to find out that she's essentially bringing you into 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: a murder investigation and leaving you under the bus. You know, 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: a lot of times in this case, it feels like 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: they're doing more to convict Jake and Angela than they 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: are George regarding custody of his son, what did he 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: want you to you? Okay, custody? This is the pithon 13 00:00:54,080 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Massacre season four, episode sixteen, Relevancy. I'm Courtney Armshaw and 14 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and 15 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. We're picking up after last episode's testimony from 16 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: Chris Newcomb, Angela Wagner's half brother and uncle to George 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner. On the stand. Now is Chris Newcomb's partner, 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: Miranda Hughes. She opted out of video recording, but allowed 19 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: audio recording of her testimony. It's important to note that 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: George Wagner the fourth has pleaded not guilty on all accounts, 21 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: as has his father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming. 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: Thank you, honor. The state would call his Rida Hughes, 23 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: good morning. How are you nervous? Get that a lot 24 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: from that chair. Miranda opted out of being videotaped, but 25 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: allowed her verbal testimony to be recorded. Randa echoed much 26 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: of Chris Newcomb's testimony about Jake and George Wagner's disconcerting 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: die job. Were there any conversations about that at that 28 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: time when you saw them with their hair dyed? Yes? 29 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: And what was that? Well that? Why did they do it? 30 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: And Jake said he wanted to look like I think 31 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: his name is Norman reads. Norman reads. Yeah. I told 32 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: him he was far from that. But both JP and 33 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: George had their hair dye yes, okay? And did you 34 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: know who dyed their hair? Angela? And after the homicides, 35 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: did that fact that they had dyed their hair cause 36 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: you to think something? Yes? Okay? And what was that? 37 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: Made me worry? Why? Because why would you change your 38 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: parents and then something like that happened. Randa also backed 39 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: up Chris's claims about George's desire for a block pistol. 40 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: Was there ever a time where you were present for 41 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: helping to obtain a forty caliber block for George? Yes? Sorry, Okay, Well, 42 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to over rejection the answer stand George reading questions, 43 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: can you tell us about that? Yeah? He asked Chris 44 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: if he knew of anybody that had a glock. Had 45 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: Chris said that he didn't know of anybody at the moment, 46 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: but that he could look for him. And when Chris 47 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: down one, I think George wanted it. So we met 48 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: up with the guy. But George wanted us to go 49 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: because Chris had been the one talking to him. Okay, 50 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: And did you accompany Chris? Yes? Okay? And do you 51 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: remember where you met up with this individual? I don't 52 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: know exactly where. I just knew it was a parking ride. 53 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: Randa also made some reveiling statements about how George and 54 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: Jake asked her and Chris Nucom to secure custody of 55 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: their kids in case they went to prison after the 56 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: Wagoners were charged in these offenses. Did they want you 57 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: and Chris to do certain things. Yes, regarding custody of 58 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: his son. What did he want you to do? Get custody? 59 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: Get custody? Okay? And how do you know that because 60 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: they asked okay, Well, George asked, okay, George asked and 61 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: did anybody else ask you to yes? Who else? Angela 62 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: and Jake? Okay, they all three asked you, guys to 63 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: try to get custody of yes, correct, And did you 64 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: get an attorney to do that? Yes? But once the 65 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: Wagoners were arrested, Chris and Randa abandoned their custody efforts. 66 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie and Jeff. This is the very first time 67 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: I'm personally hearing that George and Angela and Jake wanted 68 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: Chris and Randad to be the guardians of the children. 69 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, if you're getting arrested and 70 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: going away for murder, you would want your close family 71 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: member to have custody of your child. But you know, 72 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,679 Speaker 1: at least one of the children Georgie's in this case 73 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: had a mom who could have raised him. That being said, though, 74 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: George had told Chris and Randa that he wanted them 75 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: to have custody and they were apparently pushing for that 76 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: until they actually met Tabby and realized that she was 77 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: not who George had made her out to be. She 78 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: was actually a good mom and a nice person, and 79 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: George's son had a nice life with her. So they 80 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: dropped any efforts to get custody of the children after Jake, George, 81 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: and Angela and Billy were finally arrested, and for whatever reason, 82 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: the Wagners believed that they were the only people who 83 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: could raise their children and the only people that should 84 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: be raising their children. But it seems like ultimately Chris 85 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: and Randa disagreed, and I still don't think we're getting 86 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: the full explanation as to why that is, other than 87 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: that the Wagoners simply wanted to control these children. Forensic 88 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: investigator Joseph Scott Morgan sheds light on the place of 89 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: Randy Hughes's testimony in the trial. With Hughes, you know, 90 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: she kind of had an insight into their world that 91 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: not many other people have. I think, you know, you 92 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: kind of get to peek under the covers a little 93 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: bit with her. You got to see kind of some 94 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: of the insights as it applied to custody issues and 95 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: kids and you know, that was the big thing, you know, 96 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: because that goes to motive, I think, and we have 97 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: to understand that. I think a lot of people are 98 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: mistaken when they think about prosecution. Prosecution does not have 99 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: proved motive. That's not what the purpose of this is. However, 100 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: it does go to getting a feel for what family 101 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: dynamic was like, of the familial environment. I think that 102 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: that's spirit significant. And you know, as thrilled as we 103 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: get about hearing people talk about forensics and getting down 104 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: into the nuts and bolts of things, I don't think 105 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: that it is as significant as you know, being able 106 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: to get a peek into this world. In his cross defense, 107 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: attorney Richard Nash tried to pin the fascination with The 108 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: Walking Dead on Jake. He was the one who modeled 109 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: his killings after the show's lead character, not George the 110 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: man on child. And there was some discussion speaking of 111 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: hair color. Jake had told you that I think he 112 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: wanted to look like Norman Riders. Yes, and Norman readas 113 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: is he the main character in the Walking Day, He's 114 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: kind of one of the main characters of The Walking Dead. Yes, 115 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: And Jake had a fascination with Norman yes, okay, I 116 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: saw you really give me a positive response to that, 117 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: And you've watched The Walking Debt, yes, and so your 118 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: familiarity with the movie. Ye, how do you kill a zombie? 119 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: They shoot him in the head. The jury also heard 120 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: about the tattoos that Billy, George, and Jake got after 121 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: the murders. Jake got one of flaming pistols on his 122 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: upper arms. Billy and George's were a bit more problematic again, 123 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: and Jeanette after the homicides, you know, about a month 124 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: and a half later or so, June of twenty seventeen, 125 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: he and Jake and George went and they got tattoos. 126 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: Billy's tattoo is a scorpion with eight notches on it, 127 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: and the prosecution thinks that that holds some significance. We 128 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: have eight victims in this case, and a scorpion, which 129 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: can be fatal, is on his right finger, which could 130 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: be his trigger finger if he's right handed, and he's 131 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: got this tattoo with, you know, signifying something that can 132 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: be deadly on his hand. George, on the other hand, 133 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: has something that's an eight ball inside a skeleton's mouth 134 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: with some aces on the sides of you know, playing 135 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: cards aces. I'm not, you know, I don't know if 136 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: that's a coincidence. I don't. Obviously, the prosecution feels like 137 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: it's significant and it's relevant that the number eight is 138 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: common in these tattoos. A scorpion with eight abdominal segments, 139 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: a skull biting down on an eight ball, eight rod instead. 140 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 1: Some people see the correlation. Others wonder why it's admissible. 141 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 1: It's kind of strange because we, I guess the judge 142 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: is letting the jury look at this and see if 143 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: it's relevant. I mean, it's up to the jury to 144 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: determine whether or not the tattoos are relevant. I'm not sure, 145 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, I could see the scorpion being relevant, possibly 146 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: the eight ball in the skeleton's mouth. I think we 147 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: just have to wait to see how the testimony plays out. 148 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan is more dubious. I would have said that 149 00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: years ago the tattoos may have carried more weight. I 150 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: think I'm recalling them on mind, you know, uh, you know, 151 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: being for instance, in the Morgue, I remember a couple 152 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: of cases where I had people who were legitimately folks 153 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: that had worked as assassins in prison. They wind them 154 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: dying when they finally get on the outside and they 155 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: have the tear drop tattoos. You know, you always knew 156 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: that point somebody that had committed a homicide you had 157 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: to put chuco crosses on the hands that you know, 158 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: there's little crosses with the little radiating lines that you know, 159 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: you can tell if somebody's a drug dealer or an 160 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: arms dealer, or they're an assassin. They used to tell 161 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: these tales. But you know the problem is people use 162 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: tattoos now to try to create an image for themselves. 163 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: Maybe you could get a tattoo expert to pop up 164 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: on stand and say, oh yeah, based on the structure 165 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: of this thing, this is generally associated with people that are, 166 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, involved in this type of behavior, particularly if 167 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: you're talking about gangs and whatnot. But you know, you 168 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: can say that all day long. I mean, I've seen 169 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: some pretty horrific things. Images of these tattoos that people 170 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: walk around in public with they don't make them a killer. 171 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: It just means that they've got an interest in this 172 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: this interesting art that they're willing to put on their 173 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: body and display to the rest of the world. But 174 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: that doesn't make you a perpetrator in a homicide. The 175 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: jury also heard heart stirring testimony from Rita Nucombe, Angela 176 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: Wagner's mother, and Jake and George's grandmother. Nucom declined video 177 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: or audio recording of her testimony. Petite with dirty blonde hair. 178 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: Nucom is a devout Christian who wrestled with their daughter's 179 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: actions after the murders Stephanie and Jeff. Rita was in 180 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: tears when she testified about how she initially lied to 181 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: investigators to protect her daughter and quote her grandbabies, but 182 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: then she soon came clean because of her faith in God, 183 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: and of course once the Wagners became actual suspects steph. 184 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: What I find interesting is that Rita Newcom falsely told 185 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: agents with the Ohio BCI that she had signed these 186 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: custody documents involving George and Jake's children as a notary public. 187 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: Rita basically testified in court saying that Angela said to her, look, Mom, 188 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: if you don't admit this, they're going to really hurt 189 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: me and possibly even kill me. And that's a brutal 190 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: spot to be And can you imagine your daughter is 191 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: basically begging you not to turn her in and then 192 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: you come to find out that she's essentially bringing you 193 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: into a murder investigation and leaving you under the bus. 194 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: She continues to describe the worst days of her life 195 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: were the eight days that she spent behind bars. Again. 196 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, I think that Rita being 197 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: in the midst of this just tutanic storm. There's part 198 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: of me if you can, if anybody can, feel kind 199 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: of sorry for anybody that's been associated with with these 200 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: horrible deeds. I think that, you know, I would listen 201 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: probably more toward Rita new in this. You know, she's 202 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: involved in this with her child. She's born witness to 203 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: everything Angela's ever been involved in. I think that most 204 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: parents would try to do anything that they possibly could 205 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: in order to help their child. I think early on 206 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: that people assumed that this is a broad ranging conspiracy, 207 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: and immediately they associated Rita with it, that she was 208 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: part and parcel. They almost had her sitting at the 209 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: kitchen table. Now, I just I just don't see that 210 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: that that was the case, you know, relative to to 211 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: to these homicides. And if we are to believe that 212 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: that Angela is the controlling person you know, this manipulative, 213 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, kind of Singhali like character that you know 214 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: has sway over the entire family and how things are 215 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: going to be done if Angela is that person, to 216 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: Rida perceive her daughter as maybe potentially you know, going 217 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: to do harm to her, or she would have money 218 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: do harmed her, and that's what makes that all the 219 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: more harms. We're going to take a break. We'll be 220 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Rita Nucomb spoke extensively about her 221 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: family's legacy of abuse again long Crimes Anjenette Levy. Rita 222 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: Newcome is somebody we've known about since the arrests were 223 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: made in this case back in November of twenty eighteen, 224 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: and Rita is Angela Wagner's mother. She claimed that Angela 225 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: told her that, you know, if you don't, if you 226 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: don't do this, they're going to hurt me. We never 227 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: got a clarification on who they are that she said, 228 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: they will hurt me if you don't say you did this. 229 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: She also talked about how you know, she had been 230 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: married to Angela's father of course at Carter and he 231 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: was abusive to both of them, I mean physically abusive 232 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: and Angela had actually gone into the Air Force at eighteen. 233 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: She wanted to get away from all you know or 234 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: bad and this whole thing. And we found out that 235 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: Angela left the Air Force early allegedly because she was 236 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, and it was never investigated or reported. According 237 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: to Rita, I find it interesting given the fact that 238 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: the motive for these murders allegedly was protecting and this 239 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: fear that the little girl might be molested. So it 240 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: makes you wonder, is that were this concern about sexual 241 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: assault or sexual abuse where it originated was with Angela's 242 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: time in the Air Force. So I guess we'll find 243 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: out as the case progresses. But she talked about not 244 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: liking Billy Wagner. I would think that seeing a woman 245 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: who's seventy plus us sitting up there crying and reliving 246 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: this and admitting to lying for her daughter, I would 247 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: think the jury would take that very seriously. But again, 248 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: this is George's trial, not not Angela's trial. But still 249 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: it paints a picture. You know, it seems like Angela 250 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: Wagner has just been painted as the ultimate villain in 251 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: this story. In this trial, I mean, nobody says anything 252 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: nice about Angela Wagner. In this case, the jury also 253 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: heard from two PCI forensics experts, one with special Agent 254 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: Brian White, who searched the Wagoner's property in June of 255 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. He's now a lieutenant with the Madison County 256 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office in Central Ohio. Special Prosecutor Andrew Wilson questioned 257 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: him on the stand and swear a affirm that the 258 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: testimony we're about to get you the truth, the whole truth, 259 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: and the truth is thank you a nice loud voice. 260 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself again to the journey. My name 261 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: is Brian White. I'm a lieutenant with the Massive County. 262 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: Share yourself. When you were out there searching that area 263 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: of two sixty Peterson Road June fourteenth, June fifteenth, twenty seventeen, 264 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: did ultimately you find pieces of evidence that you collected 265 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: and took into customer Yes we did. And June fourteenth, 266 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: June fifteenth, during that search, did you also have Matt 267 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: White out there with you, who was from the lab. Yes, 268 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: we did, and explain what his role was or what 269 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: he did that day. Whenever if we would find something 270 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: that was firearms related through shifting, whether it be a 271 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: casing of bullet or whatever. Matt would take a look 272 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: at it and then he would put it in. He 273 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: would basically separate them out into different characteristics or calibers 274 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: or whatever. Okay, I'm gonna handy what's been more for 275 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: identification purposes? I sticks and give it ssfy. Can you 276 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: tell us what's in I stake and give it? Ss fy? 277 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: That's uh fire cartridge case two two three caliber collected 278 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: June fourteenth and fifteen, twenty seventeen, to sixty Peterson Road. 279 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: It's got my name on it, my initials. And again, 280 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: is there a two two three firearm listed on AGH two? Yes, 281 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: there is. The Wagner's to sixty Peterson Road property, which 282 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: was owned by Jake is thirteen miles from where the 283 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: roads were executed. It was at this location that White 284 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: recovered twenty two caliber shell casings that match the ones 285 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: found at the crime scene. The Wagners were in Alaska 286 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: at this time. On the Peterson Road property, a second 287 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: barn was mid construction, possibly the BCI suspected to cover 288 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: up evidence again and Jeanette in June to twenty seventeen BCI. 289 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: This was after the Wagners had moved to Alaska, went 290 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: back to the Peterson Road property where the Wagners had lived. 291 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: They had sold it in May of twenty seventeen, a 292 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: month prior, and Brian White, it was like the lead 293 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: crime scene agent on this case, and he said that 294 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: they went back there with ground penetrating radars looping to 295 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: see if there was anything buried underneath their under the 296 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: ground of evidentiary value. I mean, at this point in time, 297 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: they were still looking for murder weapons. The lead BCI agent, 298 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 1: Ryan Scheider, said there was a new barn that was 299 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: being built and constructed on the Peterson Road property at 300 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: the time of the homicides. Really, I mean part of 301 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: the barn had been erected and it was under construction 302 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: at the time of the homicides. And after the homicides, 303 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: and so BCI had gotten the new owners to tech 304 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: and talk with Jake about this, which stimulated some conversation, 305 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: if you would about it. It got George to call Angela. 306 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: They discussed it, and Angela was very concerned about which 307 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: barn they were searching, you know, which barn, She kept asking, 308 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: So they were concerned about the property being searched, and 309 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: George sounded like he was the one in charge, like 310 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: he was the go between, you know, asking Jake, you know, hey, Jake, 311 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: which barn is it? Because Angela wanted to know which barn, 312 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: So it sounded like George was very much the boss 313 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: in that conversation. At least. BCI criminal intelligence analyst Julia 314 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: Evslage also took the stand. She intercepted the Wagner's cell 315 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: phone conversations and also monitored their social media activity. The 316 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: Wagner's and the Rodents had volleyed Facebook blocks back and forth, 317 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:59,959 Speaker 1: revealing potential grudges, focusing on Hannah Rodin's Facebook As previously mentioned, 318 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: she was not currently friends with Jake Wagner. From prior 319 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: posts or messaging, they were at one point friends, but 320 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: they weren't at the time of the return. She had 321 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: blocked George Wagner's profile and Angela had blocked Hannah Rodin's. 322 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: There was an assortment of relationships between Tabitha's profiles, as 323 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: there were a number of them, but Hannah Rodin and 324 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: Tabitha's most recent account were friends at the time of 325 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: the return. But in a world where people block each 326 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: other routinely online, it's hard to know how much weight 327 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: to give someone pressing a button on Facebook and Jeanette. 328 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: I guess if there's some big feud going on and 329 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: the families are warring with one another, of course you 330 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: would have somebody blocked. Or maybe you just block somebody 331 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: because you don't want them snooping on your Facebook, or 332 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: maybe you just don't want that person in your business. 333 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. I thought it was strange that George, 334 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: who claimed Frankie was a good friend, or at least 335 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: his attorneys have claimed that Frankie was a good friend, 336 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: that he had had Frankie blocked, He had Hannah May blocked. 337 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: You know, all these different people had each other block. 338 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: Is it indicative of somebody carrying out out a homicide? 339 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: I guess it could be, But as far as like 340 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: who who did what, or who planned and covered up, 341 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not sure it's that relevant. Julia Evslage 342 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: also played the court a fascinating intercept of George Wagner 343 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: on the family's journey to Alaska. I thought Julia of 344 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: A Slage's testimony was interesting when we got to hear 345 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: George Wagner. You know, it was really the first time 346 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: we or one of the first times, I should say 347 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: that we heard his voice, and we heard that he 348 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: can become quite agitated. It was after the family had 349 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: been stopped at the border in Montana and interrogated, and 350 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: he was putting his son in the car, and he 351 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: was telling his little boy, who was a toddler at 352 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: this time, those people back there that fed you and 353 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: played with you their liars. They're bad people. They want 354 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: to want to kill us. And the little boy was 355 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: saying no, no, no, you know, and things like that. 356 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking to myself as I'm listening to this, 357 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: this is a grown man talking to his child who's 358 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: a toddler and telling this child that the people they 359 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: just saw at the border were trying to kill them. 360 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: And I just found that to be so strange and unbelievable. 361 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that someone would talk to a toddler 362 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: like that. We're going to take a break. We'll be 363 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: back in a moment. As the round of testimony wrapped up, 364 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: some observers thought there was still an underwhelming amount of 365 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: evidence against George Wagner. You know, a lot of times 366 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: in this case, it feels like they're doing more to 367 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: convict Jake and Angela than they are George. Now, granted 368 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: George is not the main player in this case. The 369 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: jury really just has to determine whether there's enough evidence 370 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: to show that George was part of a conspiracy to 371 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: commit and cover up murders. Eight murders. So that's really 372 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: what they have to prove. Yeah, we all want to 373 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: know the details. The only thing I can see is 374 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: that they somehow had it in their minds and it 375 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: almost seemed like a circular thing that they were all 376 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: feeding off each other, thinking they were the only ones 377 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: who could raise these kids and the way they wanted 378 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: them raised, whatever way that was. I mean, it just 379 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: sounds like it was a very insular life with a 380 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: lot of yelling too. More on that next time. For 381 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us 382 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Masker is 383 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Wieter, Andrew Arnow, 384 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 385 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: by Jeff Toi. Music by Jared Aston. The Pike Didmasacar 386 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeart Radio and Katie Studios. For 387 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 388 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 389 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: Please welcome Markite County Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord, I just 390 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: thank you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, 391 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: had all sad all over the house? Who could have 392 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: killed eight family members in one by I lost my 393 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: best friends and I will never be the same because 394 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. 395 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: The killer left to those children lang in their mother's blood. 396 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: The word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was 397 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: the master mind? I'm telling you is a framer. I'm 398 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: not fitting in prison. One thing I learned, the smaller 399 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch 400 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders of Family Massacre, 401 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on 402 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November 403 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and our hearts 404 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.