1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. And Kristen 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: and I'm caroling, And today we are talking about women 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: and cults, and to kick things off, we thought we 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: would start at the very worst end of the spectrum 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: in terms of women's involvements and cults, because I think 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: when a lot of us hear the word cult, we 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: think of Charles Manson and the family and the number 9 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: of women who he attracted to his cult. Yeah. I 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: think when people talk about cults or think about women's involvement, 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: they do tend to think of what we call destructive cults. 12 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: Not necessarily the groups of people who come together and 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: actually provide a safety net for one another, provide a 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: sense of community and love and all of that wonderful stuff. 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: We today are focusing were on the destructive end of 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: the spectrum, and certainly the Manson family plays into that. 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: What's so interesting about Manson is that when he ended 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: up in San Francisco back in nineteen sixty seven, he 19 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: hung out with a bunch of hippies and ended up 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: developing kind of a huge following, mostly of young women 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: who were disillusioned with the state of affairs in America 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: at the time, and he actually had a lot of 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: women and if you're familiar with Manson, you know all this, 24 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: But he had a lot of women essentially doing his bidding. Yeah, 25 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: when it came down to the trials dealing with the 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: La Bianca murders, which were the most infamous of the 27 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: Manson family crimes, which involved the murdering of Sharon Tate, 28 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: who was eight months pregnant at the time, and others. 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: There were three women who were sentenced to death UM 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: which those sentences were then commuted to life sentences after 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: California did away with the death penalty UM. But it 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: was Leslie Van Houghton, Susan Atkins, and then Patricia Krenwinkle. 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: And Krenwinkel has talked in recent years about her experience 34 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: in the family because initially, one of the most disturbing 35 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: things for people, you know, in the early seventies watching 36 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: these trials happening, was just the lack of remorse of 37 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: all of these very young women who were brutally murdering 38 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: these other people. And so Kranwinkle, for instance, um, I 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: think she played a part in seven murders. She stabbed 40 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: one person in the La Bianca murders so brutally that 41 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: the police thought that her nightgown had just been bought read. 42 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: She played a role in seven of the Manson family 43 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: murders because um, it is thought that Manson didn't actually 44 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: murder anyone, He just had all of his followers do 45 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: his murderous bidding. And in the La Bianca murders, for instance, 46 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: Krenwinkle stabbed one of the women so many times I 47 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: think it was like sixty plus times that the police 48 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: thought that the white nightgown she had been wearing what 49 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: was actually originally read UM. She ended up being though 50 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: the longest serving and still is the longest serving female 51 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: inmate in the California penal system. UM. But now looking 52 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: back on it, she has said, quote, I wanted to 53 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: feel like someone would care for me, And I know, 54 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: going into this podcast Caroline to learn about women and cults, 55 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: that was the idea that that I had of why 56 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: a lot of women would join the so called destructive cults. 57 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: That they are looking for something that they are perhaps 58 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: these lost lambs looking for a shepherd, if you will, 59 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: to put it in a like horrifyingly inappropriate terms in 60 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: reference to Charles Manson as a shepherd, right, Well, I mean, 61 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: I think I don't think you're wrong in putting it 62 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: that way. I think a lot of cult leaders definitely 63 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: seek to fill that sort of role in terms of 64 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: shepherding people in one direction or another, whether that's a 65 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: positive direction or not. Um. But yeah, it's interesting to 66 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: look at the stereotypes of people who joined cults, because, yeah, 67 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: we we just tend to assume that everyone who joins 68 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: a cult is brainwashed and weak willed. And while it's 69 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: true that a lot of people men and women who 70 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 1: joined these groups do tend to be looking for something, 71 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: there's sort of a common baseline of of maybe being 72 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: in a transitional period and seeking something, which is also 73 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: the reason a lot of people do find religion as well, 74 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: not just a cult. There's just a whole lot more 75 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: to it. And it's interesting to see that there really 76 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: is a full range, a full spectrum of people who 77 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: joined cults, and a full spectrum of reasons for doing so. 78 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: So let's take a look at how a cult and 79 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: a destructive cult in particular differs from other types of 80 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: religious or group organizations. And this is coming from Adrian 81 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: Furnham who's a psychology professor at University College of London 82 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: and so Freedom says that whether the cult is based 83 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: on religious or political or self help foundational reasons, they 84 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: have a bunch of recognizable characteristics. Typically, they have a 85 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: powerful dedication or devotion to an explicit person or creed. 86 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: One huge one is the use of thought reform programs 87 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: to get people to believe everything that is said within 88 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: the confines of the cult, and they all tend to 89 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: share recruitment, selection and socialization processes too, And going off 90 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: of the whole thought reform thing, there's also efforts to 91 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 1: maintain psychological and physical dependency among cult members. They work 92 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: hard to reprogram the way people will see the world. Um, 93 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: there's a consistent exploitation of group members specifically to advance 94 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: the goals of that leader, the cult leader. And another 95 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: big one is the fact that a lot of cults 96 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: will pull people out of their common and familiar surroundings 97 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: and bring them into different and unfamiliar settings that have 98 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: totally different rules and behavior patterns to cut off members 99 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: from family and friends outside. So the question then is 100 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: why do people join cults to begin with? Because obviously 101 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: this point cult to have a negative connotation in our society, 102 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: largely due to say, the actions of the Manson family 103 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: or even uh the Jonestown cult which drank the poison 104 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: kool aid and nine people died as a result of that. Um. 105 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of stereotyping, as Firnum talks about, 106 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: that goes into our ideas of why people would want 107 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: to join up with these rather infamous groups, and Furnum rights. 108 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: All too often we explain strange unexpected behavior like joining 109 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: a cult in terms of the dispositions of others, that 110 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: they're poor, gullible, naive, indoctrinated members who have quite defective personalities, 111 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: But we explain more common behaviors in terms of the 112 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: appeal of an accepted group's philosophy, leader, or benefits. Thus, 113 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: he says, the idea is that sad in adequates join cults, 114 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: but altruistic, caring people join the church. And so he says, 115 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: if you look a little bit deeper at the way 116 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: we sort of condemn people who join cults versus a 117 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: lot of other people who join, say, churches, then there's 118 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: a lot of moralizing that goes on in the stereotyping, 119 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: when in truth, members of cults show surprisingly large diversities 120 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: in terms of age, career backgrounds, education, ideology, and talents. 121 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: There isn't just one stock cult member in the same 122 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: way that there isn't just one stock member of a 123 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: major religion, right exactly. And where religions, organized religions and 124 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: cults intersect is what they offer members, and a lot 125 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: of times that's friendship, identity, respect, security, community and cults 126 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,239 Speaker 1: also offer a worldview, and Firnum writes about how um 127 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: a cult leader or the leadership of a cult will 128 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: provide members with sort of a black and white, right 129 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: and wrong, good and bad version of existence of reality 130 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: of the world of society, and that's really really comforting 131 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: for people who maybe are in that transitional period and 132 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: who are seeking something. And the International Journal of Cultic 133 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: Studies in February kind of expanded on this idea of 134 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: wanting to belong to a community, and they talk about 135 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: how the propensity for individuals to be drawn to non 136 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: kin groups is hard wired. You have narcissistic cult leaders 137 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: who are adept at creating these cohesive groups that become 138 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: attractive to people who are most drawn to these non 139 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: kin groups, people like altruists, idealists and transcendence seekers. Now 140 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: there are some hallmarks psychological traits of cult members broadly UM. 141 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: And this is coming from Michael Langne, who's the psychologist 142 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: who specializes in cults, who I have a feeling is 143 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: also quite entertaining at dinner parties, I would imagine UM, 144 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: and he talks about how there's a lot of disillusionment 145 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: with the status quo going on. So think of, for instance, 146 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: those girls in the nineteen sixties blocking to hate Ashbury 147 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: who had left their homes and met this guy named 148 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: Charles Manson. They were like, hey, you play guitar, let's 149 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: hang out. And then on top of that the naive idealism, 150 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: a blind belief that everyone is good, including for Arabs, 151 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: narcissistic or even sociopathic cult leaders. And then a desire 152 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: for spiritual meaning that need to believe that life has 153 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: a higher purpose. And these three hallmarks again jive with 154 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: probably a lot of what drives people to seek fulfillment 155 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: through those non kin groups, whether it is in a 156 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: church or a synagogue or a mosque or you know, 157 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: the living room of a cult group. But when it 158 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: comes to cults, the fact that you also have the isolation, 159 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: especially if it's a destructive cult. The isolation factors, the brainwashing, 160 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: these very specific manipulative recruitment techniques that also plays on 161 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: psychological traits that sort of foster dependency and gullibility and unassertiveness, 162 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: of fostering a reluctance to question what you're being told. Yeah, 163 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: and that's exactly how these cults recruit, retain, and control 164 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: their people. Destructive cults demand total compliance and conformity. There's 165 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: no individuality that exists within a destructive cult. They use 166 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: heavy persuasive techniques, and by heavy, I mean this could 167 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: involve forcing members to take drugs or keeping them sleep deprived, 168 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: things like that. And a big one too is creating 169 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: dissonance and using emotional manipulation, and that plays into a 170 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: lot of what psychotherapist Shelley Rosen, who was writing in 171 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: the Cultic Studies Journal in nine, talked about when she 172 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: looked at why women in particular joint cults. So she 173 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: takes an overall look first at women in society. Broad 174 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: brush strokes here, folks, she talks about how like thanks 175 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: to advances in society second wave feminism, women are able 176 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: to hold more powerful roles outside of the home in society, 177 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: but they're all service eating conflicting messages telling them to 178 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: maintain their feminine identities. Add to that that people in 179 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: general yearn from mentors and direction, but maybe women aren't 180 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: receiving and a mentorship or direction in their personal lives 181 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: or their careers, and then there's a little bit of 182 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: room for seeking that out. And so Rosen writes about 183 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: how cults really appear to be quote communities that include 184 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: values of cooperation and nurturance while expressing power and success, 185 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: and they appear to offer the answers about how to 186 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: cope in today's world. But the irony of all of 187 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: this is based on her work with past female cult members. 188 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: Rosen says that a lot of times women are initially 189 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: drawn to cults as a way to gain power and 190 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: influence while merging that with sort of a caregiving role, 191 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: because a lot of these small cults are very much 192 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: into tight knit communities, and sometimes I mean we're talking 193 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: like very very tight, uh, to the point of you 194 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: can't get out. And unlike the stereotype of the fawning 195 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: female cult member who is simply being who doesn't have 196 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: much between our eyears and is simply being led astray 197 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: um by some like male sociopath. Rosen writes that quote 198 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: women who joined cults are intelligent, active, and seeking to 199 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: make an impact. And yet uh, they might end up 200 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: in these groups because at first they go to their 201 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: first meeting or course or group, outing whatever it might be, 202 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: and it seems comforting. But the more in mesh they 203 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: become into this group, the more obviously they tend to 204 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: lose their power, right, and I mean she in terms 205 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: of power. She She talks about how women who are 206 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: seeking a certain type of power that is non competitive 207 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: and non threatening, they they really will grab take two 208 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: groups like this because oh, here's a strong leader. So 209 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm not the boss. I don't have to worry about 210 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: like leading the charge and changing society. But I can 211 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: buy into this person's vision of X, y Z, of society, 212 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: of whatever, and help work towards a common goal. But 213 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: in reality, cults, destructive cults definitely don't provide the type 214 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: of support that this image of a woman that Rosen 215 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: is painting is looking for. So what are they doing joining? 216 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: And this is where we get into the idea of 217 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: semiotic incompetence, and that goes back to earlier when I 218 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: mentioned cults creating dissonance and emotional manipulation, Semiotic incompetence is 219 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: basically what happens when you go into a situation expecting 220 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: something and then something else starts to happen, and you 221 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: start to feel awkward and uncomfortable because things aren't quite 222 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: matching up. Expectations are not matching reality, and maybe you 223 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: don't know why, maybe you can't put your finger on 224 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: what it is, but it definitely creates a feeling of 225 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: insecurity and um, really discomfort basically. And she talks about 226 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: the reason that this plays into more of a quote 227 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: unquote female thing, according to Rosen, is that in our culture, 228 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: we tend to typically be raised to think that people 229 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: are good and they mean what they say, and we 230 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: should trust them and we shouldn't question them, um. And 231 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: so once women are involved in destructive cultic groups, they 232 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: can become anxious, depressed, confused, and dissociated. They can't figure 233 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: out why things don't feel right. Well. In addition to 234 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: playing into those gender dynamics, perhaps a lot of these 235 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: destructive cults will often enforced specific kinds of female targeted 236 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: tactics to keep them sort of at the mercy of 237 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: the cult. So Marcia Redden, who's the director of the 238 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: International Cult Education Program, was talking about how pregnant women 239 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: in cults, in particular, for instance, going, I know I 240 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: keep parping on the Manson family, but for instance, Um, 241 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: one of her name is flipping my mind right now, 242 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: but she actually had Charles Manson's child, Um Pooh Bear 243 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: while she was a member of the family. She has 244 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: since of course left and is now living anonymously in 245 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: the Midwest, but she was pregnant for a time in 246 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: this cult. And so Rodden talks about how pregnant women 247 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: and cults might receive little, if any prenatal care, delivering 248 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: in unsanitary conditions, being forced to leave children behind if 249 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: they leave the cult. Um. Because this is also playing 250 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: into the fact that when it comes to the one 251 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: hallmark of a destructive cult, as opposed to say sort 252 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: of a small cultish group that's totally fine and not 253 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: destroying lives, is that isolation factor. So on top of 254 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: the if you're pregnant not receiving prenatal care, education is 255 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: often highly restricted. If you have a child in a cult, 256 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: one of destructive cults, they will probably receive little of 257 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: any formal education. Um Hari Krishna, for instance, I thought 258 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: that women aren't smart enough for school because their sole 259 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,959 Speaker 1: job really is to be a homemaker, right exactly. And 260 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: of course, in destructive cults, the issue of sexual abuse 261 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: is a huge one, and this is coming from John J. 262 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: Laylk in Cultic Studies Journal. In she was writing about 263 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: how sexual control is seen as the final step and 264 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: objectification of the cult member by the authoritarian leader who's 265 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: able to satisfy his needs through psychological manipulation leading to 266 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: sexual exploitation. And so here's where we get into the 267 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable parallels between cults, cult members and the charismatic, 268 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: narcissistic leaders and how they use all of these sexual 269 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: and manipulative tactics and abusive relationships, manipulative relationships, and the 270 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: fact that women who get out of either one of 271 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: them a cult, a destructive cult, or an abuse to 272 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: relationship tend to suffer things like PTSD because their whole 273 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: worldview has been so warped for so long. But I'm 274 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: getting out of myself. So in terms of the sexual 275 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: abuse that a lot of women in destructive cults face, 276 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: one aspect is the fact that their entire sexuality or 277 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: sex lives, in addition to rules about marriage and procreation, 278 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: are controlled, manipulated and exploited just like any other part 279 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: of their lives as part of a cult. And the 280 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: sexual abuse definitely isn't random. In fact, it may actually 281 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: be sold as an integral, accepted part of the cults 282 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: whole system. Yeah, you hear stories about destructive cults in 283 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: which um group sex might be forced, or you know, 284 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: women passed around to male members of the cults to 285 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: do their sexual bidding. Obviously the cult leader, who is 286 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: usually male um having full sexual access to female members 287 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: of the All kinds of things like that happening. And 288 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: a lot of times though, if there is this kind 289 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: of abuse happening, your willingness to go through with it 290 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: is often framed as a matter of duty, honor, and 291 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: loyalty to the cult. And at that we're going to 292 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: take a quick break and when we come back we 293 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: will talk more about women and cults and whether they're 294 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: actually more likely than men to join. So stick with us. 295 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: So one big question that we haven't addressed yet is 296 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: our women likely or to join cults. I think up 297 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: to this point in the podcast, we've sort of been 298 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: operating on the assumption that a lot of cults are 299 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: framed as men sort of attracting groups of other men, 300 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: but also a lot of women being willing to do this. Um. 301 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why we wanted to do 302 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: this podcast in the first place was because of an 303 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: article in the Guardian newspaper that came out in Januar 304 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: which said that women make up seventy percent of global 305 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: cult members. So we immediately said, oh, well, you must 306 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: do a podcast on cults. However, statistics, actual confirmed data 307 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: on cults, it's rather hard to come by. Yeah. This 308 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: is an article written by Jemima thack Ray, who is 309 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: a minister and you know Christian. As much time as 310 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: I've spent researching for this episode, I could not find 311 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: a anything to back up the stat But b I 312 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: just couldn't find really numbers in general. I mean, I 313 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: think a lot of people speculate that women are more 314 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: likely to join cults because of various reasons like, oh, 315 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: they're just used to being oppressed, and that that's kind 316 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: of thack Ray's argument in this Guardian article. UM. She 317 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: says that women are much more susceptible to being seduced 318 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: by it just cults than men are. And she says 319 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: that part of the problem is that in many cultures, 320 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: women are less well educated than men, are less empowered, 321 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: and therefore are more attracted to the illusion of security 322 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: that occuld offers. And she was writing about this in 323 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: the context of a Brazilian man who at the time 324 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: was claiming to be Jesus reincarnated and their photos of 325 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: him surrounded by a host of young women and so, 326 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: and I think that that is the prevailing idea that 327 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: we have in terms of what occult looks like. It's 328 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: a guy surrounded by a host of young women. UM, 329 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 1: which I think is part of what disturbs us so 330 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: much about cults to begin with, is specifically destructive cults, 331 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: because there is that question of how how is that happening? 332 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: But I think Caroline that your analogy to abusive relationships 333 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: is spot on because as when you think about the 334 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: hallmarks of a lot of these narcissistic, possibly sociopathic, um 335 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: destructive cult leaders, they often have the psychological profiles of 336 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: what's called the dark triad, which is what shows up 337 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: in literature about um and academic literature about the quote 338 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: unquote bad boys in our society and why some straight 339 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: women are particularly attracted to that, and it has a 340 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: lot to do with that psychological profile. And I think 341 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: there is probably a lot of overlap with those two 342 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: psychological profiles of the bad boy with the dark triad 343 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: and perhaps the archetypal male cult leader. Yeah, and one 344 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: cult leader who I wanted to talk about is Winnifred 345 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: Right and his family quote unquote is often compared to 346 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: the Manson family, but Winnifred Right was active in the 347 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties and nineties in California, UM, and I think 348 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: as as horrifying. I won't get into too many gory 349 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: details of this, but Winnifred Wright's family is almost a 350 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: textbook example of the destructive cult that we're talking about 351 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: in terms of a man praying on educated, independent, do 352 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: good or women who basically just sort of fell victim 353 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: to uh what he was selling, although it was definitely false. 354 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: So basically the rundown is that Winnifred Right is a 355 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: black man who wrote his family a lot of letters 356 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: back in the seventies and eighties about the materialistic white 357 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: establishment and wanting to overthrow the system, and he encountered 358 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of white women who he then convinced to 359 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: become his wives. And the thing that these women all 360 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: shared was that they were educated, ambitious, They had privileged backgrounds. 361 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: One was even the daughter of the Xerox millionaire. And 362 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: another thing that they shared was a sympathy with rights 363 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: you points about race. They were all white women who 364 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: agreed with him that, you know, the white uh dominant 365 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: society was oppressing black society, and they there was this 366 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: element almost of white guilt and wanting to help, and 367 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: he actually encountered a lot of them in reggae clubs. 368 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: He was a Rastafarian for a time, but he ended 369 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: up using his first wife as a recruitment tool to 370 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: bring other women into the family and to bring random 371 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 1: women home for him to have sex with. And she 372 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: would approach other women from the perspective of do you 373 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: want to be a model for a women's art project, 374 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: so very much using the idea of women's power, second 375 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: way feminism. You're going to be part of this wonderful 376 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: women's community if you come with me to this house. 377 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: But then they tended to not leave after that, and 378 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: right basically sold the situation as a quote African style matriarchy, 379 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: but according to this article that I was reading about it, 380 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: Right ruled his household with an iron fist, controlling every 381 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: element of the women's lives, including their wardrobes, reading materials, diets. 382 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: They were all vegetarian, and even the emotions they were 383 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: allowed to express. Right could have sex with whoever he wanted. 384 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: He could get angry. He shot guns off in the 385 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: house to keep them in a constant state of panic. 386 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: But they were supposed to cover their heads with scarves, 387 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: make sure that they wore loose fitting clothes and looked 388 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: as modest as possible. He actually told them that he 389 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: didn't want them to look like sluts. And so this 390 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: is a scary, horrifying, but perfect example of the manipulative violent, 391 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: both sexually, physically, emotionally and mentally, These violent tactics that 392 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: these cult leaders will use to keep women absolutely at 393 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: their mercy. Well. And it follows that pattern of starting 394 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: out as a welcome invitation to something more spiritual and 395 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: progressive um, which for non destructive cults, that usually is 396 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: what people are seeking out, and they are sharing ideas 397 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: and perhaps of finding a higher spirituality for them, whatever 398 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: that might mean. UM. But when it comes to the 399 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: destructive cults. Obviously that erodes away into the cult leader 400 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: in the structure of the cult, just chipping away at 401 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: members self confidence, moral perceptions. There's the isolation factor, breeding 402 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: mistrust among cult members to the outside world so that 403 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: they wouldn't even want to seek help outside um, keeping 404 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: them exhausted, and also just essentially just breaking down who 405 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: they are as individuals, so they just become literally a 406 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: part of this ideology. Yeah, and it's it's so interesting 407 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: as far and we'll get we'll get into leaving cults 408 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: in just a second, but that whole aspect of mind control, 409 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: thought reform warm telling these women. You know a lot 410 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: of people look at cult members or even women in destructive, scary, 411 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: abusive relationships, and they say, why won't she just leave? 412 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: Why won't you just walk away? And when you have 413 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: someone constantly telling you that you're no good, that no 414 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: one will want you. For instance, Winnifred Wright told his 415 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: wives that, oh, you have mixed race children, no one 416 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: will want you after this, You're not worth anything. You 417 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: have to stay here. It's this whole idea that the 418 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: cult leader is making leaving seem like the scariest, worst, 419 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: most impossible thing to do. In the world. But I mean, 420 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: we've talked a lot so far about male narcissistic, sociopathic 421 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: cult leaders, but there have been some women in our 422 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: history who have stepped into this role as well. Yeah. 423 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: Joni Johnston highlighted this over Its Psychology today talking about 424 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen twelve, there was a woman named Clementine Barnabette 425 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: who was a high Priesis of the Church of Sacrifice 426 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: in Louisiana, who ultimately confessed to kill seventeen people as 427 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: part of her devotion to that cult, and the group 428 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: itself killed forty people overall because they believed that human 429 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: sacrifice could bring them wealth and immortality. And I mean 430 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: they were they were incredibly brutal. They would essentially mutilate 431 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: the bodies beyond recognition. Um. Fast forward two thousand twelve 432 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: and you have Sylvia Mraz Moreno and her son Ramon 433 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: Mraz who allegedly let a cult that worshiped the female 434 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: saint of death, Lisantam Morte, and finally a alleged serial 435 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,479 Speaker 1: killer members of the Miras family were arrested for murdering 436 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: two children and an adult. So women certainly play a 437 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: role in this as well. It just seems like from 438 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: the limited research that there is on these cultic practices, 439 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: a lot of times it is the male leader, but 440 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: while there might be, you know, his devoted female followers, 441 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: they're also sort of the second command women, the lead wives. 442 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: And for a pop cultural reference, that makes me think 443 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: of The Master, which was one of Philip symour Hoffman's 444 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: last films, where he plays this cult leader of sorts, 445 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: And what's most fascinating to me in the film is 446 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: how the relationship between his wife played by Amy Adams 447 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: and him really is the central force of this cult, 448 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: even though he is the leading personality, and you know, 449 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: the cult of personality is is all focused around him, 450 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: but she plays an integral role much in the way 451 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to the Jonestown and People's Temple, are 452 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: the ones who drank the kool aid. How Leader Jim 453 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: Jones's wife, Marceline was often a stand in for him 454 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: if he was delivering a speech somewhere else, and she 455 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: would also actively chastise people who questioned him. Yeah, and 456 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: she was so devoted to her husband and the cult 457 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: at large that she she didn't even it looked the 458 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: other way. When Jim Jones took on another partner this 459 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: this other woman, I think her name was Caroline or Catherine, 460 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: but um, Marshalling just sort of accepted that this was 461 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: how it was, and that this is the best thing 462 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: for her husband, and whatever was the best thing for 463 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: her husband, then it was the best thing for the 464 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: cult and she would just have to accept it. But 465 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: she went on in her leadership role of being the 466 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: cult leaders second in command. Yeah. Now, in the case 467 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: of that Jones Town cult which relocated to Guiana so 468 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: that they were completely isolated from people back home, and 469 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: nine members ended up dying in the infamous mass murder 470 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: slash suicide where they drank the kool aid, But before 471 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: that some members had left the cult. Obviously, it is 472 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: possible to escape these destructive groups, but there are usually 473 00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: phases of leaving that are necessary, be because of the 474 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: manipulation and brainwashing that's often involved. Yeah, there's a lot 475 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: of different theories out there about what is the best 476 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: way to leave a cult, to help someone leave a cult, 477 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: to kidnap someone and forcibly remove them from a cult. Um, 478 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: there's a there were a lot of programs like this 479 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: back in the eighties, I believe to sort of reintegrate 480 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:29,479 Speaker 1: people into society. But generally psychiatrists and psychologists agree that 481 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: there are necessary steps that need to happen if someone 482 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: is going to essentially kind of wake up and realize 483 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: I need to get out of here. And a lot 484 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: of this is coming from psychotherapist Shelley Rosen, who we 485 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, but she points out the importance of asking 486 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: questions about why you, as a member of this group, 487 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: are upset or confused. You know, we talked about that dissonance, 488 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: the emotional manipulation, the semiotic incompetence. Basically, something is not 489 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: adding up. She points out that women are socialized to 490 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: be trusting and caretaking, and so asking questions, especially in 491 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: the sort of manipulative, scary situation, can be seen as 492 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: critical or making waves, and so we tend to get 493 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: the message that to be successful we have to hide 494 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: what we know and still speak deferentially to men and 495 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: other people in positions of power. And so cult members 496 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: in general are discouraged from asking questions. You're you're criticized 497 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: for your lack of faith, et cetera. But asking questions 498 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: is the critical first step to pinpointing what is wrong 499 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: with the situation, because once you start asking the questions. 500 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: Then you get to step too, of gaining the competence 501 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: to pay attention to the clues that you are being 502 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: deceived um and this involves even paying attention to the 503 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: different linguistic styles that might be UM integrated into the 504 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: cult lifestyle of and how that differs from dominant views. 505 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: And um rose and talks about how again, as women, 506 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: we might be socialized to listen more keenly to what 507 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: men say than to our own, as she calls it, 508 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: feminine voices, right, just trusting the dominant or the masculine 509 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: in this case, over your own voice, or the feminine 510 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: in this case. And then she also talks about having 511 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: to believe that leaving the group is even an option 512 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: that will have a successful outcome. You know, we talked 513 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: earlier about how part of leaders manipulation in general is 514 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: to make its members believe that the outside world is 515 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: a scary, dangerous place. No one will want you, You 516 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: will lose all of the support we have given you 517 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: if you walk out, and so it's made to seem 518 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: absolutely impossible and the worst option ever. And so once 519 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: you do make that step of being able to say, hey, 520 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: I can leave, I can make a life for myself, 521 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: as many of the people who left before the Jonestown 522 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: massacre did. That's sort of the the last step in 523 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,959 Speaker 1: being able to get free of the cult. Now, when 524 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: it comes to cults, statistics, as I mentioned earlier, are 525 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: rather vague. Estimates. For instance, of how many people in 526 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: the US are in cults are in the low hundreds 527 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: of thousands, um. And and we didn't find any hard 528 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: numbers on the gender breakdown, So we want to leave 529 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: it to listeners of the question of do you think 530 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: that women are more prone to joining cults? And is 531 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: it perhaps harder for us to leave cults because obviously 532 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: there there are plenty of men and cults as well. 533 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: I mean speaking of the master actor Yaquin Phoenix, who 534 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: start in that ironically grew up in the cult the 535 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: Children of God. Now that was not the destructive cult 536 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: spinoff of the Children of God. He has said that 537 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: his parents were essentially looking for people to share like 538 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: minded ideas and um, you know, find find a deeper spirituality, 539 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: which is all find well and good, but really curious 540 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: to hear for listeners who might have any cultish insights. 541 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: Send us your thoughts. Mom Stubb at house Stuffworks dot 542 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us 543 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: at mom stub Podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've 544 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you when 545 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break and now 546 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: back to the show. So I've had a Facebook message 547 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: here from Adrian about our Lady Lawyer episode, and she writes, 548 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: as an aspiring lawyer myself, I really appreciated your episode 549 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: on dress codes in court. In Canada where I live. 550 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: In criminal court, lawyers on both sides wear robes. However, 551 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: in other matters they're free to wear what they like. 552 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: Another dimension to this issue is a controversy around dress 553 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: codes for parliamentarians. Many run into the exact same problems 554 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: as what you highlighted in your episode. A pant suit 555 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: like Hillary Clinton or Angela Merkel is too strong but 556 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: to feminine, and people don't take you seriously. A couple 557 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: of years ago, controversy erupted here when it was revealed 558 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: that the official photos of some female members of Parliament 559 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: were photo shopped to be more modest. These women were 560 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: professionally inappropriately dressed in my opinion, but we're apparently showing 561 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: too much skin for the parliamentary website to handle it. 562 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: I love dressing professionally. I feel proud and strong and feminine. 563 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: It's so sad that for many women this empowered feeling 564 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: is mitigated by constant sexist scrutiny. So thanks Adrian, and 565 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: also I had no idea about that parliamentary photo shopping. 566 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: That is ridiculous. Our lady lawyer dressed god up. So 567 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: definitely got a lot of great feedback. You guys keep 568 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: the letters coming, but we're not just getting letters from 569 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: lady lawyers about double standards in terms of address. I 570 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Pam who says I just 571 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: wanted to let you know that that is not the 572 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: only work field that has ruled and double standards. I 573 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: am a wildlife field tech, and there tends to be 574 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: a double standard here as well. When I worked for 575 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations, men and women were treated indifferently. The only 576 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: thing in common about our dress was good work boots. 577 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: Our bosses never really cared too much about what we 578 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: wore as long as we were careful out in the field. 579 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: Anything went shorts, tank top, swimsuits, jeans, whatever. Now that 580 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: I work in the private sector is a field tech, 581 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,919 Speaker 1: I have to be careful about what I wear. I've 582 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: been instructed that I can't wear anything low cut or 583 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: without sleeves, and my pants can't have worn holes in them. 584 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: As a field tech comfort is key if I'm going 585 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: to be hiking in one hundred degree plus temperatures or 586 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: wearing a pair of well broken in pants versus a 587 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: pair of brand new stiff pants. Anyway, keep up the 588 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: great work and keep the podcast coming. I tend to 589 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: listen to y'all while hiking at work, and it helps 590 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: keep me entertained while working in one hundred plus or 591 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: negative twenty degree conditions, So thank you, Pam. I guess 592 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: we can't get a dress code break anywhere, although I 593 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: will say that the podcast your dress code pretty relaxed. 594 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: Pretty relaxed. Yeah, we're both wearing bathrooms right now. It's right. 595 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: So if you have thoughts to send to us again, 596 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how Stuffworks dot com is our email 597 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: address and for links to all of our social media, 598 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: including all of our blogs, videos, and podcast with this 599 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: one with our sources so you can follow along with us, 600 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 601 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics 602 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: isn't how stuff works. Dot com