1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: That's my getting absolutely screwed over by the medical establishment voice. 2 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: People thought it was another Sheep podcast. They were briefly 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: extremely excited. Nope, the Sheep, the Sheep podcast. Will I 4 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: make no promises about the Sheep podcast. What we're going 5 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: to tell them about the Lost Sheep episode? No, yeah, okay, 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: we'll try. Will just leave that one. Yeah, this is this, 7 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: this is it could happen here, the podcast where you 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: would think that the medical issue is a trans thing 9 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: and it's absolutely not. And it's amazing and I love it. 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's it's a podcast for I complain about 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: medical issues and talk about other stuff with me as James. Yeah, 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm a person who complains about medical issues and sometimes 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: goes to Mexico to buy drugs yeay, legal drugs, drugs 14 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: while we're being recorded. This The thing that is making 15 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: me think of is I was in oh god, I 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: don't remember where in Mexico I was. Um, I was 17 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: not very old, but so we took up, we took 18 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: off Fairy and it was I got like so C sick. 19 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: It was like the most C sick I've ever been. 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: So we had to like go back and um, so 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: I this my Spanish is not great. At this time, 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: my Spanish was much worse than it is now. Um, 23 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: and we have to we go to this drug store 24 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: and we're trying to find something that's like an anti 25 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: C sickness drug, and we buy this drug called vomisin 26 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: and we're looking same. When we're looking through that the thing, 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: we find the part where it's says side effects, and 28 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: I remember and I look at this and I and 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: I read it and it says said, I'm like, oh no, 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: it's like, oh god, it wound up. Actually it was 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: completely yeah, yeah, I did not vomit over the rails again, 32 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean hydrant on the ferry right back. I have 33 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: a good I have a good inadvertent medicine hallucinogen story, 34 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: and then we can we can actually do the podcast. 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: And I was when I was a bit younger. I 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: was climbing a mountain Morocco and became extremely altitude sick, 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: like my fucking nose was just like unleashing my blood. 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: Like it was a real momentum. Yeah, I bad, look great, 39 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,119 Speaker 1: and so I tried to get some medicine. We went 40 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: somewhere and like you, I speak French, but most of 41 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: people spoke Berber and it wasn't a language that I 42 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: speak at all. Anyway, I received some medicine which I 43 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: took in the form of I think like a powder 44 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: that I'm mixed with honey, and I was like, okay, 45 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: this is unique and different whatever fuck me, did I 46 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: have some incredible dreams. I just kept taking it because zone, well, 47 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: it was definitely opium was the thing I was taking. 48 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: Was like, I bought it down and was like, I 49 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: this stuff just really helped us my altitude sickness. One 50 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: of the adults I with with was like, ah, yeah, 51 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: dow drugs kids speaking of not doing drugs. Okay, So 52 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: what we are here today talk about democracy, the opm 53 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: of the masses. Yeah. So this this script was originally 54 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: written in a period where I had spent an enormous 55 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: amount of time being forced to watch documentaries about what 56 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: democracy was. And my conclusion from all of this is 57 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: that the history of democracy begins with a mistranslation. Okay, 58 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: So okay, what does that mean? The answer is that, Okay, 59 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: the whatever someone starts talking about democracy, the first thing 60 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: they do is they go like, I'm gonna start, I'm 61 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna start by translating the word democracy. Now, 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: the most common translation that you'll see this like like everywhere, 63 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: from like Astra Taylor's like documentary what is Democracy to 64 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: just like the thing that's on Wikipedia holds that democracy 65 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: is derived from two Greek words. Right, you have demos, 66 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: meaning the people, and cradhouse meaning rule. So you put 67 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: these two together, you get demos cradouse, you get democracy. 68 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: My Greek, my camp announce great, fair well, it's fine whatever. 69 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: It's an ancient Greek. Yeah, but you know this means 70 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: rule by the people, so okay. This translation has simphal 71 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: advantages right foremost among them, it is simple enough to 72 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: be taught to a school to school children, and catchy 73 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: enough that is a non zero chance that like the 74 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: most pedantic of them will remember it after the day 75 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: after the test, which presumably is the explanation for why 76 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: this is. This is the translation of democracy. It opens 77 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: every single fucking thing people right about democracy. Unfortunately, appreciunately 78 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: for beleaguered grade school teachers and and sort of those 79 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: are the broader populace as a whole. This translation is 80 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 1: so blatantly wrong that I have been forced to start 81 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: a thing about democracy and also about rioting yelling about 82 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: ancient Greek So great, Okay, so what what what? What 83 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: is the actual issue here? The actual problem is the 84 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: mistranslation of Kretos in particular is incredibly important both conceptually 85 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: and ideologically, and the actual sort of proper translation and 86 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: the implications of this are worth examining in some detail. 87 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: So the other problem just David graeberds to we have 88 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: mentioned a lot on this show wrote in his regrettably 89 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: very poorly read essay There Never Was a West. He 90 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: describes Credos thus quote in this in turn, might help 91 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: explain the term democracy itself, which appears to have been 92 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: coined as something of a slur by its elitist opponents. 93 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: It literally means the force or even violence of the 94 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: people Kratos, not arcos, the ancient Greek word for ruler, 95 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: also the root of anarchism or without arcos. So yeah, 96 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: so what he's saying there wasn't Cretos a dude? Like 97 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: he's dude, day I undas sold him an immortal dude. Yeah, 98 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: he's Also he's the main character of the god of 99 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: war games. Okay, that is the thing I did not know. 100 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: And hilariously that that is like him him being the 101 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: main character of the god of war games. That is 102 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: actually a better way to understand what credos is than 103 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: the rule by thing that everyone usually translates. This app 104 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: because like, like ancient Greek has a perfectly good word 105 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: for like rule by right, it's arcos. It's the root 106 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: of anarchisms, like an an archos, it's but it's the word. 107 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: It's like the normal thing where you have a Greek 108 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: derived word where you want to say rule by is 109 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: that is arcos? Right, yeah, but democracy is not that, right, yeah, 110 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: like all gark is like that, but like democracy is 111 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: specifically credos. And this is because what democracy literally means 112 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: is ruled by the violence of the people. Fast. Yeah. 113 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: Well and this, you know, okay, so like this, this, this, this, 114 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: like this sounds like I am essentially pearl clutching about translations, 115 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: but the context you is actually important rights, as Grammar 116 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: points out, the sort of you know, Athens, which is 117 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: the example or society, society against which the original antidemocratic 118 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: philosopher is rail By the way, this is like Plato 119 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: hates democracy. Most of the people who you read from 120 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: sort of classical Greek, like, yeah, philosophy despised democracy even 121 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: so they live in them a huge you know, not 122 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: not not not to like whitewash Athenian society, but like 123 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: these people are like Sparta apologists, and it's like, yes, 124 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: we haven't really care. It's funny that people have definitely 125 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if they've actually recovered Plato or red 126 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: Plato or they just get mad when Donald Trump doesn't 127 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: win elections. But like this whole, like this whole like 128 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: benevolent philosopher king ship has definitely definitely made a comeback 129 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: in recent years, and it's troubling. Yeah, And I think 130 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: I think part of this, this is this is another 131 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: complaint that I've had about sort of like the way 132 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: that like the sort of like great authors thing is 133 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: taught in in in universities, is they deliberately like there 134 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: was like an in in what in what specific readings 135 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: they assigned, there was like an incredible intellectual effort that 136 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: goes into making sure you never see the absolutely deranged 137 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: shit that these people believe. Like Plato, Plato literally worships 138 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: angular momentum. Yeah, like that is his god is angular 139 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: momentum um. Like he he he's like he hates democracy. 140 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: He loves like spurred in like oligarchy basically, like all 141 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: of this stuff is like that's like something like you 142 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: don't read and know when you get assigned Plato, it's like, yeah, 143 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: there's a huge like um, as someone who's taught like 144 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,479 Speaker 1: a ton of universities, that's that's this huge fucking impediment 145 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: to you assigning that stuff. Like I've specifically tried to 146 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: assign different stuff in these like writing courses, which which 147 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: ended up being like great white dudes of history, right Like, um, 148 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: like if you kind of signed different things, but like 149 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: the cost of assigning those and that that cost isn't 150 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: born by you or the university, right, it's born by 151 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: your students is massive. Like even if like for a 152 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: while there, like we would just like a lot of texts, 153 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, if you take the time as a professor 154 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: to label out the text, you can take it to 155 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: a print shop, get them to photocopy it, and it 156 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: almost evigbly you need to find someone who's willing to 157 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: kind of play fast and news with copyright. But still 158 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: it will end up costing your students so much more 159 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: than the texts which are in the book that you 160 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: can fucking autogenerate the quizzes because the book also has 161 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: a website and you still get paid like you're doing 162 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: a job when you're not. So yeah yeah and bad yeah. 163 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: And this stuff has had you know, like this has 164 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: had sort of profound ideological influences, has had you know, 165 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: it's it's has sort of profound it's a profound influences 166 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: on like the I mean just sort of the way 167 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: that like ancient Greece and Rome or conceptualized and and 168 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: and I think this also really has uh you know, 169 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: it hasn't It makes it very hard to see what 170 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: was sort of actually going on in a place like Athens. 171 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: And you know, a great grapar sort of points this 172 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: out right, like Athens is a sort of like exemplar 173 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: I like, you know sort of it's as sort of 174 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: an examplar, like it is literally like the place for 175 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: which like like most descriptions of sort of democracy are 176 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: are are sort of originally about and Athens. You know, 177 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: we are trained to think of Athens as like, oh, 178 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: it's like, well Athens, this is like the first democracy 179 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: or whatever. This is like actually this is actually like 180 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: a very normal sort of society and it's not this 181 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: is a this is an extremely weird society. And what 182 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: what what Grapar sort of points out about this, right 183 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: is you know the thing that that is you know, okay, 184 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: so like there have been lots of societies over sort 185 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: of the course of human like the you know, hundreds 186 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: of thousands of years in the sort of like course 187 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: of human history that I've had collaborative decision making systems. 188 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: What is very, very weird and almost unique about Athens 189 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: is it has two things put together. It has a 190 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: decision making apparatus where people have equal say, and it 191 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: also has a violent enforcement mechanism to impose the will 192 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: of the people on other people and as you know, 193 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: as we'll get to you in a second, also impose 194 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: the will of those people on other people. Most society, Yeah, 195 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: that that that that turns out to be a very 196 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: important part of sort of vening empire, et cetera. Exaction 197 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: like who the people are? Yeah, this is people. Yeah, 198 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: well we'll get to that in a second too. But 199 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: so so most societies, grape or argues either have one 200 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: or the other of you know, having a having like 201 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: a decision making apparatus people of equal say, and a 202 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: violent enforcement mechanism right, You have a lot of societies 203 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: with collective decision making apparatus is that involve the entire community. 204 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: But the thing is, these these processes in varyably sort 205 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: of like develop some kind of consensus process as a 206 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: sort of expedient to keep the community from just tearing 207 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: itself apart through costs of conflict, right, because like, okay, 208 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: like if you can't actually without the threat of force, right, 209 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: you can't actually have society where you constantly have really 210 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: really controversial decisions being made by like fifty one forty 211 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: nine splits where both sides absolutely hate each other and 212 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: one side as imposed over the other. Right, And in 213 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: order to sort of like keep your like, you know, 214 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: your like city or your state together, right, you have 215 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: to actually create political solutions that you know, people people, 216 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: not not that they necessarily like fully agree with, but 217 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: that they're willing to live with. And then you know, 218 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: this generates sort of like various so increasingly elaborate, sometimes 219 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: not very elabab but you know, various sort of forms 220 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: of consensus processes. On the other hand, you have societies 221 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: with extremely violent enforcement mechanisms, but these societies are almost 222 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: always incredibly hierarchical and they're ruled either by to monarchs 223 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: or oligarchs who just simply do not care about the 224 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: notion that like people should rule themselves or that you know, 225 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: other like other other people who are not like the 226 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: king or the body of oligarchs, should have like anything 227 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: even remotely to do with making decisions. And that that's 228 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: what makes Athens really weird, right is Athens has both 229 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: of these things. It has a sort of it has 230 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: like a violent it has a way of like imposing 231 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: decisions on people through violence. And also it has this 232 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: principle that like people should be able to make decisions 233 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: for themselves collectively by you know, like through through through 234 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: a sort of process that doesn't involve them all being 235 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: ruled by just like some guy. And you know what 236 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: makes Athens or the other and the other sort of 237 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: Greek democracies, because there are there are other democracies in 238 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: Greece over the sort of period that this goes on. 239 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: What makes them unique is that, like the people quote 240 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: unquote is composed largely of soldiers, as Grabory puts it, 241 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: in other words, if a man is armed, then one 242 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: pretty much has to take his opinion into account. One 243 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: can see how this works and its starkist and Xenophon's 244 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: anabasis I have been I have now been told by 245 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: several dictionary sites that this is, in fact how you 246 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: pronounced it. I don't know. Annabassis sounds terrible to me, 247 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: but such as the will of of I don't know dictionaries, 248 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: which tells the story of a Greek army of mercenaries 249 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: who suddenly find themselves leaderless and lost in the middle 250 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: of Persia. They elect new officers and then hold a 251 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: collective vote to decide what to do next. In a 252 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: case like this, even if the vote was actually sixty forty, 253 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: everyone could see the balance of forces in what would 254 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: happen if things actually came to blows. Every vote was 255 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: in a real sense a conquest. So what we're dealing 256 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: with here right in this is this is sort of 257 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: what democracy is is very rawest form. Is you are 258 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: dealing with a group of very heavily armed men who 259 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: need to find a way to convince slightly more than 260 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: half of the group to agree to help them impose 261 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: their rule on everyone else. Do you know what I 262 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: will get you? Do you do? You? Do you know 263 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: who will fail to pay your mercenary contract? Leaving you 264 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: stranded in the middle of a Persian civil war which 265 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: you have backed the wrong side. Vladimir Putin. Yeah, don't 266 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: take mercenary contracts in Vladimir Putin. And we're back. So, 267 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, as I was sort of saying, well, what 268 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: we're dealing with here, right, we have a group of 269 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: very heavily armed men and they they need they need 270 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: to find a way to make you know, they need 271 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: to find a way to make like half of like 272 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: slightly more than half of the group agree with them 273 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: to impose their sort of rule on everyone else. So 274 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: it's slightly more technical terms, right, Athenian, you know, Athenian 275 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: democracy or democracy in the Athenian sense, it's composed of 276 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: two code determining elements fused together. There is a decision 277 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: making apparatus and an enforcement mechanism. The two are code 278 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: determining because the structure of the enforcement mechanism, which is 279 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: fifty one blokes with sticks beating forty nine blokes with 280 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: sticks over the head, also determines the structure of the 281 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: decision making apparatus, which no longer needs to concern itself 282 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: with the opinion of everyone in the group, as they 283 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: would in a society without the ability to sort of 284 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: employ violence to enforce decisions as long as they have 285 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: enough people to sort of militarily defeat a minority of 286 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the group. Right, you know, you could you could see 287 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: how the structure, how the enforcement mechanism is is the 288 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: thing that is structuring what the decision making process has 289 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: to look like. Right. It's the thing that sort of 290 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: sets its limits. And this something that it turns out, 291 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: is very very sort of important in what a democracy is. 292 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: The enforcement mechanism, too, is also determined by the sort 293 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: of decision making apparatus. Because the people here are soldiers. 294 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: So the fifty one percent that becomes the sort of 295 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: like basis of the democratic majority rule. You know, it 296 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: literally composes the enforcement mechanism itself. And this sort of 297 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: double code determination is the origin of majority rule democracy. Right, 298 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: the institution that you know, in various forms, and we 299 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: will get into this like this has gotten increasingly less 300 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: and less quote unquote democratic over time, but this specific 301 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: form is the thing that has come to sort of 302 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: define what democracy is. If we look at what democracy 303 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: is as a political project, though, right, what we see 304 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: is that the essence of democracy itself is to transform 305 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: the majority from a simple count of military strength into 306 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: into a signal of morality. Right, The citizens of democracies, 307 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: and even even a lot of people who are either 308 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: not citizens of a democracy and live in it or 309 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: who don't live in a democracy, simply believe that is 310 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: the more or all right for a majority of people 311 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: to be able to impose the will in a minority. 312 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: This is this is just this you know, this this this, 313 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: this is what. This is what forms a kind of 314 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: democratic common sense. Right. It is the thing that everyone 315 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: believes that is sort of the basis of everything about 316 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: how a democracy functions. Right, And you know, democracy is 317 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: almost never framed this way explicitly except by you know, 318 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: every once in a while you'll get someone who makes 319 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: his argument who is like I don't know, they're a 320 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: billionaire or they're like, you know, what's his name? I yeah, 321 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: high em will like like if you press him, or 322 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: like Milton Freeman to also well like if you press him, 323 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: will make this argument, right, which is like no one 324 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: actually wants to live in a democracy, because you know, 325 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: like if you you know, if if we actually live 326 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: in a democracy, everyone will just like increase our tax 327 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: rate or like marginalized groups will like these are critiques 328 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: made of the United States as well. Yeah. The earliest inception, right, yeah, 329 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: you know, I know, what's his name, I think it was, 330 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: I think was John Adams. So some of the early founders, 331 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: like very explicitly is their argument against, like maye various 332 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: was the anti democratic arguments against giving anyone who didn't 333 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: have property the vote, which was, like, I think that 334 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: the exact line was, if you give people the vote, 335 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: the first thing they will do is erase the debts 336 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: and redistribute the land. Yeah, which was all ast rebellion 337 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: about this, right, yeah, yeah, I wish would have been 338 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: based a good program usually kind of kind of messed 339 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: up in the US where you have to ask where 340 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: that land comes from. But you know, yeah, but like, well, 341 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: this is this is an argument you really only ever 342 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: hear from people who have like the only minority that 343 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: makes this argument are people who have a ship ton 344 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: of property, who are like, oh god, and you know, 345 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: and their their thing here is, well, okay, we need 346 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: to make the system blessed democratics so that people can't 347 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: take our property away, yeah, or give property rights. Yeah yeah. 348 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, the reason for sort of 349 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: pointing out that this is what democracy is in theory 350 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: is really sort of cynical and like reactionary. But the 351 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: thing that the reason this argument works quote quote works 352 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 1: with sort of like you know, with with sort of libertarians, 353 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: is that this equation of of sort of numerical superiority 354 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: with the more right to exercise power is like the 355 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: key underlying assumption of democracy. It is the idea without 356 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: which democracy simply seizes the function. Right. But but this 357 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: is something that you know, people don't talk about democracy 358 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: like this, right. The sort of trick of the democratic 359 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: system is to make is to push the enforcement mechanism 360 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: into the background. Right when when when you talk about 361 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: democracy with like regular people, the thing that they walk 362 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: and they normally they think about voting, right, But you know, 363 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: and any any kind of thing that is like a 364 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: collective like decision making process, right, a regular person is 365 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: going to call democracy. And you know, there if that's 366 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: kind of true. But but you know, but if if 367 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: if you want to sort of get like technical about it, 368 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: it's not. And there's an there's an incredibly large ideological 369 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: apparatus that's specifically built up around making sure that people 370 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: don't look at the way that the that the enforcement 371 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: mechanism is as much, if not more so, a sort 372 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 1: of key element of what of what democracy is than 373 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: the part where you know, where everyone comes together and 374 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: make it makes a decision that everyone talks about all 375 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: the time. I was watching an interview with Gray But 376 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: the other day such other things I do in my 377 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: free time, and he was talking about like democratic confederalism 378 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: in Northeast Syria, right, and he talked about it as 379 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: like democracy without the state, which I think it's interesting, 380 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: like it's him using that vernacular yeah definition, So okay, 381 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: So I think I'm taking a lot of the arguments 382 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: from self grabber wrote, but he backs away from the 383 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: implications of his own argument, right yeah, and goes back 384 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: to albeit like caveating there were and I guess it's 385 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 1: worth noting that there are a ton of like hugely 386 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: divergent like we're not like prisoners of etymology, right, like 387 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: like yeah them meaning like I think it's Rosa Luxem 388 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: who said government is uh politics into people's interests or 389 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: something that it's kind of bullshit tanky interpretation of that. 390 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: Most people would see it as there are these broad definitions, 391 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, And I think this is something that like 392 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: like Asher Taylor's documentary, right, like you know the part 393 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: about that's good. Right, it's like there's I forget who 394 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: says that there's this like kind of famous political line 395 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: that's like I if if if if if there if 396 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: there is a thing that everyone agrees is good, no 397 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: one will agree on what it is, right, Like, you know, 398 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: this is something that like you know, like I think 399 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: I think it's it speaks to the power I think 400 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: it sas specifically to the power of the sort of 401 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: like like the idea that more people being like agreeing 402 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: with something like gives gives legitimate gives legitimacy to that thing, 403 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: which is that like every like like even societies that 404 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: are like not even like really remotely democratic. Right, We'll 405 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: pretend that there's soul democracies, right, like the Batists have 406 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: elections every sort of like yeah, I mean like like 407 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, this is this is the thing I think 408 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: isn't very well understood, but like like this this was 409 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: also a thing like for example, China has this like okay, sorry, 410 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: I I I as as as I'm preparing to explain this, 411 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm realizing that the China wa like the like Chinese 412 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: government experts are going to get mad at me because 413 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm I think, I think I'm about to confuse the 414 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: United the United Front with the United Front Works Department. 415 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 1: But so chin China, like technically speaking, is there are 416 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: like other parties technically that are kind of remnants from 417 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: like you know, for exact example, like the left faction 418 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: of the KMT, which is like the Chinese Nationalist Party. Right, 419 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: there's there's like technically a faction of them that's part 420 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: of this thing called like the United Fronts. There's like 421 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: technically other parties and they have like this like consultative role. 422 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: It's it's it's an incredibly convoluted and elaborate system, but 423 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, like that whole thing and you you you 424 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: can find you know, like the Chinese system is like 425 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: not it's not democratic in this sense of like you 426 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: can like vote for someone or like like okay, like 427 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: it's not democratic in the sense of you can make 428 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: a vote that will make a thing happen, right, you know. 429 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: And to be fair, the US is also not democratic 430 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: in the sense of you can cast a vote and 431 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: make a thing happen, right, But this is sort of 432 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: like you know, okay, like it is. It is a 433 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: in a society that is less democratic than the US, 434 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: which is sort of astounding considering the US like doesn't 435 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: even have one person, one vote. Right. Well, we'll get 436 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: into like republics a bit in a second, but like 437 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, like Chinese like quote unquote democracy is like 438 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: not it has very little to do with like the 439 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: principle of like the mote, like fifty one percent of 440 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: the population votes for a thing and it happened for it. 441 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: But but you know, like if if if you if 442 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: you look, if you look at the sort of rhetoric 443 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: that you that you see from or in the internal 444 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: justification of like like you know you sort of like 445 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: read chinesecratic documents, so you read sort of like that 446 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: their pr stuff. Like they constantly talk about like, yeah, 447 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: we're gonna make a more democratic society because like that 448 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: legit amas like the idea of democracy is really incredibly 449 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: powerful and enduring, and it's something that like even like 450 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, like I mean, like I don't know, like 451 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: the Saudis don't pretend to be a democracy really, but 452 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: like most of the other like golf monarchies have like 453 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: election ee things, right, Like it's it's it's an idea 454 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: that is that is enduring and powerful enough that even 455 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: people who don't agree with it are forced to sort 456 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: of like do this pageantry of it. And I think 457 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: that's really interesting, and I think it explains a lot 458 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: of the kind of I mean, especially around to occupy, 459 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: but I think it explains a lot of the kind 460 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: of political movements that we've been seeing over the last 461 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: about fifteen years, which is I think this is also 462 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: an explanation for why why we see so many riots 463 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: as as a former as as a form of politics, 464 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: and why you get these demands that are sort of like, 465 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, you like in the two thousand eleven revolutions, 466 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: and so you sort of also see this now you 467 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: get a lot of sort of very abstract calls for 468 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: a democracy while also doing things that like are quote 469 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: unquote not legitimate in a democratic society, like like rioting 470 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: is not supposed to be sort of like a legitimate 471 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: political action in a society because you know, like there's 472 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: this whole like the AA, because there's a system under 473 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: which violence is supposed to be administered, administered right like 474 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: you have a state. The state is the thing that's 475 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: supposed to do violence. If anyone else does it outside 476 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: of that, they're like, you know, they're an illegitimate extremist. 477 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: But okay, if if we go back to our sort 478 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: of based definition of what democracy is, right, democracy is 479 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: a collective decision making apparatus anti enforcement mechanism. It's like, well, 480 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: what is a riot? Right? A riot is both of 481 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: those things happening at the same time. There are a 482 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: bunch of people collectively making a decision and then imposing 483 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: that decision immediately. Yeah, it's ap Thompson who quote the 484 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: Leadites collective bargaining by riot quite possibly. Yeah, Yeah, it's 485 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: it's often like reference now and other stuff like like 486 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: people talk about like you know, like your your here, 487 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: that youth all the time. I think they're the original 488 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: that is, um, what is it Eric Hobbsborn could be 489 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: Hobbsborn anyway. Yeah. Famously the Laddites were called collective bargaining 490 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: by riot. Yeah, I think, well, I think there is 491 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: something sort of interesting there about collective bargaining by sort 492 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: of physical force. It's like the decision making apparatus is 493 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: happening outside of the sort of normal bounds in which 494 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: decision making apparatus is supposed to happen, And I think 495 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: I think there's there's a sort of this isn't there's 496 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: another I forget exactly which graver thing this is from, 497 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: but that you know there's graver there's actually this might 498 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 1: actually be from about Batman, which is pretty funny. Um. 499 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: What's what's his take on Alfred's class status? I don't 500 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: think he unfortunately, I think that's I think that's the 501 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: one thing he doesn't mentioned. Pretty I'm pretty sure there's 502 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: no Alfred discourse in it. There's lots of other discourse. 503 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: He calls how is it banging it? No, he calls joker, 504 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: he calls one of the Batman villains of Zerzanite, which 505 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: I think is very funny. Um. Yeah, but you know, okay, 506 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: he has this argument about sort of like okay, how 507 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: do you you know? So? So the the other part 508 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: of democracy is it is the part about the people, right, 509 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: And this is always the thing that's that's very much 510 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: in contention, like how do you determine what the people 511 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote are? And you know the structure of Athenians 512 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 1: society is very much determined by who isn't isn't included 513 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: in the people, right, Like, you know, women can't vote. 514 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: If you're a slave, you also can't vote. There are 515 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 1: lots of people who are directly under Athenian rule who 516 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: can't vote and are you know, not part of the people, 517 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: and therefore sort of like and and this this is 518 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: in some sense the origin of like sort the trajectory 519 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: democracy goes on, right, which is that it goes through 520 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: his republicanism, because you know, like the founders of the US, right, 521 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: if you look at this, that style of fifty fifty 522 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: plus one style majority democracy, right, those guys, you know, 523 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: as we talked about, like they didn't want a democracy 524 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: because they thought into democracy people would vote against their 525 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: sort of like aristocratic interests. Yeah, and so what they 526 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: sign it? Yeah, like yeah, it's like, well, all these 527 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: people own slaves, all these people own a bunch of land, 528 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: all these people like I don't know, or like bankers 529 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: and shit. And they're like, Okay, so it's gonna be 530 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: a bad idea if we let people like decide what 531 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: to do with our stuff. So instead, you know, they 532 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: go to this republican structure. And the republican structure is 533 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: I think very interesting because it takes the fifty plus 534 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: one structure, right, but you know, it abstracts it to 535 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: the point where like the like you like, your vote 536 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: for the most part basically simply does not matter. Like 537 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: every once in a while, like a local election, it 538 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: can do something. But you know, like what what's actually happening, 539 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: right is is you are like you you are selecting 540 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: who is going to rule you. And you know, the 541 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: other part of this is that the enforcement mechanism becomes 542 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: autonomous from the people itself, because you know, unlike unlike 543 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: an Athenian thing where like everyone's either like on a 544 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: ship because they're like a they're you know, they're part 545 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: of the navy, or they like you know, they can 546 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: go strap on their fucking shield and like plates and 547 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: grabbed your big ass spear, right, and you know, it 548 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: was like, ok, well, this is this is the state, right, 549 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: the state is like fucking Jerry and his friend like 550 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: Patricklis or whatever the fuck, you know, like forming forming 551 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: a shield wall with the like the shields they have 552 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: at home. You know. But but you know, and that's 553 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: the thing like in in in in sort of like 554 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: warrior democracies of that out like there are there are 555 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: sort like the Cassatra republic. I think that's it. Um, 556 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: they're they're these sort of like they're like you know, 557 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: they're like they're they're there there. There are republics like 558 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: this or quote unquote republic like this that that that 559 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: exists in in various places in the world where you 560 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: have these sort of like military classes that you know, 561 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: like do fifty plus one, but those people, right, the 562 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: enforcement mechanism is very is very very direct. In a republic, 563 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: the enforcement mechanism becomes autonomous and also the decision making 564 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: apparatus becomes both both of them become autonomous from like 565 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: the people quote unquote who are supposed to be making 566 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: the decisions, and suddenly you have the situation where you know, okay, 567 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: if you live in the US, right, it is very 568 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: very clear that there are lots of things that everyone 569 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: supports that simply like are not is not like like 570 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: it's not happening right like you know, I mean you 571 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: can look at sort of like universal healthcare, like I mean, 572 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: for another example that we could take that's I think 573 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: for poignant right now, is like there was a pretty 574 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: recent study on like what percentage of the population in 575 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: the US supports trans people getting like friends affirming healthcare 576 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: and it was like seventy percent. And then you know, 577 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: I mean but you know, you look at a state 578 00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: by state basis, right, and it's like what we'll be 579 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: talking about this more or sort of later, but you know, 580 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,239 Speaker 1: basis like, well, that's not fucking happening, right, people are 581 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: just making it illegal. And it's very easy to look 582 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: at this and go like, well, okay, so the principle 583 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: of fifty plus one is being violated, right, Like, this 584 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: is not a democracy. Something something else has happens. One 585 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: sort of solution to this is to go back to 586 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, is to very literally go back and ask 587 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: the question who is the people? And and this is 588 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: this is you know a lot of ways what occupy 589 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: is doing right, Like occupies answer this is like we 590 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: are the ninety nine percent, right, It's okay, So like 591 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: there there there is a thing that is claiming to 592 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: be the like the demos in in democracy, which is 593 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, Congress, right, but like, okay, Congress trivially is 594 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: not the people rights and the best a section of them. 595 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: It is definitionally in any in any yeah, right, you know, 596 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: and okay, so you have you have lots of versions 597 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: of this like the American one tends to be a 598 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: lot of people sitting in square, you know, but like 599 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: like like can actually convening a something that's kind of 600 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: like a democracy. But even but unless everything was like 601 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: is occupy democracy, right, Like, they don't have violence as 602 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: like a political tool. Really. I mean this isn't to 603 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: say that like there wasn't some weird, shady shit that happens, 604 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: but like, you know, like they don't have the ability 605 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: to sort of like coerce people into accepting like a 606 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: fifty one percent decision that people like genuine they can't 607 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: live list right, So so they don't they don't really 608 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: like they in some sense in challenging democracy, they create 609 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: something that isn't really a democracy, right, They create a 610 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: sort of like elaborateate census process. And this is you know, 611 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: like if if the Kratos pot is I'm trying to 612 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: think of a way I've been trying to think for 613 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: ten minutes about way to phrase this, but like if 614 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: the if the strength and power is like is the 615 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: people and it's even distributed among the people as opposed 616 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: to it's a state, and like if some of this 617 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: theoretical abstraction of the will of the majority of the people, 618 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: then that that leads to a consensus almost by definition, right, 619 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: like like if yeah, well, I mean I think I 620 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: think the sort of breaking principle here is if you 621 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: think that it is legitimate to use for a group 622 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: of people to use violence to enforce something, and at 623 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: that point everyone is still armed, then then you you 624 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: get a fifty plus one structure, right, right. But if 625 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: if you don't think it's legitimate to use violence to 626 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: coerce people into sort of like doing whatever the thing 627 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: is you want to enforce, then by definition you get 628 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: some kind of consensus process. But you know, we have 629 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 1: a system that every everyone like thinks that what's happening, 630 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: like you know, in some sense, like the ideological principle 631 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: is that like you know, everyone thinks that what's happening 632 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: is is you have a fifty plus one system. And 633 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: that's where like the legitimacy of the system comes from, 634 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: because like, you know, we voted for these people, but 635 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: also it's so clearly not and also like the police 636 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: are so clearly just this sort of like roaming like 637 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: bandit force that is like not even like remotely like 638 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 1: it like they technically drawl agen missy from the people. 639 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: But like you know, okay, like what what what what 640 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: what what happens if you try to convene an assembly 641 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: of the people in the US. The answer is they 642 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: beat the shit out of you with sticks and then 643 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,479 Speaker 1: tear gas you and then like start shooting you. Yeah, 644 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: so you know, I mean this is this is sort 645 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: of what you know, like like this this is what 646 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: occupy proved, right, which is like if if you challenge 647 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: the sort of the claim of the government to represent 648 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: the people, right, because like who who the fuck are 649 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: these assholes to like to be like a hey, no, 650 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: like we we we are the people. We are sort 651 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: of like the legitimate manifestation of people. If you want 652 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: to do anything, like you have to go through us. 653 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: Well it's like okay, so like how how did how 654 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: did they get that? How did they get that authority? Right? 655 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: And the answer is they did it. They did it 656 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: by staging an Ard revolution and that that that's what 657 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: they're legion, that's what they're act. Legitimacy derives from, right, 658 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 1: is they they want they won the Arge Revolution, Yeah, 659 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: and violently dispossess people of that before the diet that 660 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: like backing off colonialism to do an armed revolution, yeah, 661 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: and so like okay, but like you know there their 662 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: legitimacy is incredibly tenuous, right, Like this gives you this 663 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: question of how do you determine like what you know, 664 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: how does a democracy determine what the people are? And 665 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: one one way that you can make a sort of 666 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: counterclaim again against a democracy is by a like physically 667 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: assembling a ship ton of people in a place and 668 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: going like we are like physically we are the people 669 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: and we are going to make decisions. And you know 670 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 1: that that can that can look like occupy with like 671 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: a seven hour meeting about whether where we want to 672 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: put plants right, or it can look and this is 673 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, you get this a bit and occupy but 674 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: like or it can look like you know, here are 675 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people like they are going to fight 676 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: there once you just like throw shit at the police 677 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: until the police run away. And you know that that 678 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: is that that that is a that is a thing 679 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: that like we have seen in this country. This this 680 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: will be like another episode, but this this this was 681 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: a thing that happens in Mexico on three thousand and 682 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: six in Wahaka, where people basically ran out the police 683 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: by literally hundreds of thousands of people Like wait, wait, 684 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: waking up to a bunch of police, like a bunch 685 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: of police just beating the ship out of like a 686 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: bunch of striking teachers and then like picking up a 687 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: brick and throwing it. You see it a little bit, 688 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: not really but like in like Podemos in Spain if 689 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: you're familiar with that, Yeah, like they kind of their 690 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: attempt to have people determined their policy platform but not 691 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: last year successful one. But like yeah, well, I mean interesting, 692 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: Obama did that too. I really yeah, this was the 693 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: thing Obama had this job. Like one of Obama's initial 694 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: pitches was like he was gonna have there's gonna be 695 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: this like online thing where people could vote and like 696 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: decide in policy things, and he immediately manded it. And 697 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: Podemos also immediately like this, this is this is one 698 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: of the things that like this is this is like 699 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: one of the ways you try to like capture this 700 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: kind of like yeah, because what what what what you're 701 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: what you're really like when when when riot police are 702 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: like fighting like a bunch of people in the street, right, 703 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: Like what what you're watching is is two kinds of 704 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: democracy fighting with each other. Right, You're you're, you're, you're 705 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: watching a sort of like like you're you're you're watching 706 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: the crowd, which is and you know, a very very 707 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: immediate like for like you know, literal form of democracy 708 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: right where you know, the crowd makes a decision and 709 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: people do things fighting the police, who are like a 710 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: very you know, the like the police are technically like 711 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: a part of a democratic system, right, but the police 712 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: are just purely the sort of like like they're they're 713 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: they're you know, they they they they are the violence 714 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: by which the people rule. And you you are watching, 715 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: but you're watching these two things sort of like clash 716 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: with each other. And you know, I mean I I 717 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: think I think one of the sort of like products 718 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: of of of the way that republicanism like specifically developed 719 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: or like a republicanism in the sense of like this 720 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: is a republic that a democracy like yeah small like 721 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: yeah small r but also in the sense of like, okay, 722 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: so instead of you voting on things directly like you know, 723 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 1: you vote for some asshole who yeah funding, yeah whatever, 724 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 1: right like that that sort of like unmooring of of 725 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: of the means of violence from the people, which was 726 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: you know which was is the essence of democracy good 727 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: or bad? Right? And and and I would also say, 728 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: like you know that can go like that that sort 729 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: of like having having violence and democracy like you know, 730 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: violence and decision making being paired together, Like that's not 731 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: always a good thing. That can go really really badly, right, 732 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: Like you know, because like like for example, like a 733 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: race riot, right, like like a clan march right is technical, 734 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: like is technically an expression of democracy, right? It is 735 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, it is a group of people convening themselves 736 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: as the people and then doing an action. And you know, 737 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: and you like I this has been something I've been 738 00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: sort of been forced to think about it a lot 739 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 1: with the anti trans laws, which is that like trans 740 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: people are like you know, the most optimistic estimate you 741 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: could like have is like maybe two and a half 742 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: percent of the population if you assume visible to people 743 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: who are trans and don't know that they're trans, right, 744 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: Like you know, and if if you were two and 745 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: a half percent of the population in a in a 746 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: fifty plus one system, it is very easy for fifty 747 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: one there is no physical way that you can have 748 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: like if fifty plus one percent of the population decides 749 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: to kill you while there's nothing you can do, right, 750 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: Like there's there's no amount of like voting that you 751 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: can do that will make you not die, because that 752 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: that's the sort of like the terinat of the majority 753 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: or whatever like or like that. Yeah, yeah, have you're 754 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: familiar with, like the argument it gets utilitarianism that like 755 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: the greatest good for the greatest number, or the greatest 756 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: happiness for the greatest number, if you're looking to serve 757 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: the greatest happiness the greatest number. If like ten people 758 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: get two units of happiness from beating one person to 759 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: death with sticks, yeah, yeah, and then like the kon 760 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: experience as much sadness as the experienced happiness, like yeah, 761 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 1: democratic impulse in action. Yeah, and you know, like this 762 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 1: is the thing that is again what we're talking about, 763 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: like is normally brought up by like incredibly corrupt, corrupted 764 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: sort of vital the leads who want to protect their status, 765 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: but like it is also you know, and like this 766 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: is part of the reason why, for example, the US 767 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: just fucking puts like immigrants to camps, right because they 768 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: can't fucking vote, right, Like they're they're not part of 769 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 1: like quote unquote the people, right, Like there are large 770 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: sections of the populations who are just you know, like 771 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: booted from this entire process, right. Um. This is an 772 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: argument that William C. Anderson and Zoe Samoods you make 773 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: in the book as Blackness Resistance, which is that like, yeah, 774 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: like black people like fucking are not part of the ship, right, 775 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: Like they're not like a constituent of like part of 776 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: the people TM right yeah, And you know this they 777 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: they they call this, they call this the anarchism of blackness, um, 778 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: which is this sort of like it's it's it's a 779 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 1: position of being like removed as like a legit of 780 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: it sort of like subject in the state. Who can 781 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, exercise you're like democratic rights or whatever the 782 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: fuck it is, like yeah, okay, like lots of people 783 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: have never had this, and you know this, even even 784 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: even in this sort of like you know, relatively egalitari 785 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 1: like you know, like there there have been like parts 786 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: of the US, like especially the early US. Right. You 787 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: have your like sort of like New England town council. Ryan, 788 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: It's like, well, what is what is your New England 789 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: Town council all to do? It's like, well, a vote 790 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: to send out the fucking militia to kill indigenous people, right, like, 791 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, even you can even even even when the 792 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: US has functioned as something that is closer to like 793 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: a like democracy TM, where like the means of violence 794 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: and the means of sort of decision making are actually 795 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: placed in direct directly in people's hands, right, Like that 796 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: doesn't always go well, but yeah, you know, but like 797 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, we we we we we have now developed 798 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: a like we we we we developed a system that 799 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: has like the worst of every single parts of every 800 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: single aspect of this right We're like, okay, so we 801 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: we have fifty plus one as the sort of like 802 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: legitimating factor, but also fifty perside of the population plus 803 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: one does not actually vote for a thing. It is 804 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: possible for like more than half of the popular It's 805 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: possible for a majority of the population to vote for 806 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,919 Speaker 1: a BUSINESSO canidate you get a different one, right, Like, yeah, 807 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,720 Speaker 1: it's possible. Like we've seen this, like so many fucking 808 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: elections have had this now like two in my lifetime, 809 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: like like and and also also we have we we 810 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: have the other part of it, which is that we 811 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: also have like the we have the other democratic principle 812 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: of like you should be able to enforce a political 813 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: opinion by violence. Yeah, we got that in space. Yeah, 814 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: and you know again, guests get guests gets like get 815 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: guess guess who fucking guests to make that decision. It's 816 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: not fifty plus one of you. Like, it's a bunch 817 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: of assholes and suits and like six cops. I think 818 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: a good way to view the US. It's like a 819 00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: bunch of landowners native system where land votes and people don't. Yeah, well, 820 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: and then and then you know, and then and then 821 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: they went about making sure that like even if the 822 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: land does vote for a thing, if it's not for yourself, 823 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen or seventy Yeah, there's seventy five weird 824 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: dudes in between your vote and anything actually happening. Yeah, 825 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: which is how you get like this kind of constitutional 826 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: magic the trumpets are always trying to do because like 827 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: it's not actually like that far from reality, right there, 828 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: there are like seventeen magic incantations I have to get 829 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: said after you put your ballot in the box, and 830 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: then an old white dude's in charge again. Yeah, but 831 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, I think, like, you know, the US system 832 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: is like it's stunningly bad, Like it's it's it's like 833 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: a it's a really dogshit like tooroughly written democratic system 834 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: like it is it is designed not to function like that. 835 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: That that was actually the point. Yeah, Yeah, there's like 836 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: a there's a king, a thing that like you shouldn't have, 837 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: like the fur the president is supposed to it's supposed 838 00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: to be a king, right, Like I think like if 839 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 1: if if, if you go back and read like what 840 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 1: the balance of powers was supposed to be was like 841 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: they're they're doing the Roman thing of like you need 842 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: like you need to combine to king and oligarchy and 843 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: a democracy. And it's like, well, okay, so we have 844 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: like a fucking king who could just like kill people. 845 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,919 Speaker 1: It's great, it's great, it's great, but you know, you know, okay, 846 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: So the I think, I think the the the broad 847 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: total argument that that I want to make here is 848 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: that what we have been seeing over the last about 849 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: fifteen years, right with the certain movement of the squares, 850 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: with the series of uprisings that we saw, I mean, 851 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: you know in twenty twenty the US, but also like 852 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,840 Speaker 1: all over the world from about twenty eighteen to I 853 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: mean some of there're still some of them are still 854 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: going like now right, you know, it's it's, it's. It's. 855 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: It's been a reaction to sort of this right, it's it's. 856 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,720 Speaker 1: It's been a reaction to democracy as a legitimating principle 857 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: not matching like demod like you know, even even even 858 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: what the principle is supposed to be, and then people 859 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: going out into the streets and doing to democracy, and 860 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: the sort of clash between like democracy and theory and 861 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: democracy in action mostly has resulted in democracy in action winning, 862 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 1: because it turns out the thing about Republicans is that 863 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: they're really, really, really good at creating like military apparatuses 864 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: that are very hard to defeat by just purely fighting them. Yeah, sadly, Yeah, 865 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: But however, Comma, sometimes they lose, and you know, and 866 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: as as as as as the old IRA thing goes, 867 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,840 Speaker 1: they have to get lucky every time. We only have 868 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:41,320 Speaker 1: to get lucky once, so you know, keep collectively bargaining 869 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: by riot. Yeah, what the fuck else are you gonna do? 870 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: You know, like vote like yeah, yeah, yeah, Like your 871 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: life depends on it. Kids, You can vote if you 872 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: want to write like they're there are instances in which 873 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: it might meaningfully reduce the cruelty of the state a 874 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: little bit in some places sometimes, but yeah, it's not 875 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: gonna it's not gonna like take away the central fucking 876 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: connad of the whole thing. Yeah yeah, So I do 877 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: do do do do due democracy by writing that is 878 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:19,880 Speaker 1: our official legal position. This is legally I'm legally non actionable, 879 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 1: but also legally actionable at the same time. This is 880 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: called dialectics. And yeah, this, this is what they could 881 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: happen here. Find us in the places, don't find us 882 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,879 Speaker 1: in the places. Read grab yeah I do that. Read 883 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: The Never Was a West. It's great. Nobody reads it. 884 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,439 Speaker 1: It's it's really good. People have been asking for Grabe 885 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 1: a book because we keep talking about him. So yeah, 886 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: read I Never read The Never Was a West. Read 887 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: towards an anarchist anthropology bullshit jobs. It's good to start. 888 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: If you read if if You, if You, if if you, 889 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,759 Speaker 1: if you, if you want to be the real grave 890 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: head and read something that fucking no one has read. 891 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,879 Speaker 1: Go reads towards an anthropological theory of value. I read 892 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: into one of my cuttings at supermarket the other day 893 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: and we were talking about that, Say, good book, no 894 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 1: one has ever read it in Uh yeah, read Gray 895 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: but it Could Happen Here as a production of cool 896 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit 897 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,839 Speaker 1: our website cool zonemedia dot com or check us out 898 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 899 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,759 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here, 900 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks 901 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,280 Speaker 1: for listening.