Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 1: Imagine you were accused of brutally killing your parents. Imagine
Speaker 1: you were thankfully acquitted of the crime, but everyone in
Speaker 1: your city followed your highly publicized trial and they were
Speaker 1: all convinced you were a murderer. Now, imagine if you
Speaker 1: took your inheritance from your parents untimely demise and bought
Speaker 1: one of the most ostentatious homes in your city instead
Speaker 1: of moving elsewhere where, perhaps you wouldn't be so recognizable.
Speaker 1: And imagine if you lived the rest of your days there,
Speaker 1: a full thirty four years of daily taunts, glares, and
Speaker 1: hushed whispers as you passed by. You, my friends, have
Speaker 1: put yourselves in the shoes of Lizzie Borden, and we're
Speaker 1: not headed to the infamous home where her father and
Speaker 1: stepmother were hacked to death. We're headed to a place
Speaker 1: much more important to Lizzie, a place where many believe
Speaker 1: her spirit is still as present there today as it
Speaker 1: was when she was alive. Come with me to Maplecroft.
Speaker 1: I'm Amy Bruney, and welcome to Haunted Road. On August four,
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety two, Abbey and Andrew Borden were found murdered
Speaker 1: in their home in Fall River, Massachusetts. Andrew was famously
Speaker 1: found lying on the couch, his head nearly split into
Speaker 1: Abbey was found in an upstairs bedroom, lying in a
Speaker 1: pool of blood, her head bludgeoned multiple times. Like many
Speaker 1: notorious murders of this era, the weapon used was an axe.
Speaker 1: Suspicion quickly turned to Andrew Borden's daughter Ze. Other than
Speaker 1: the maid, Lizzie was the only person home at the
Speaker 1: time of the murders. It was rumored there was much
Speaker 1: turmoil in the home because Andrew was known to be miserly,
Speaker 1: even though he was supposedly worth a fortune. Lizzie and
Speaker 1: her sister Emma regularly fought with Andrew over this, and
Speaker 1: they also despised their stepmother Abby. The murder trial was
Speaker 1: sensational and was followed via the press worldwide. However, every
Speaker 1: bit of evidence the prosecution presented was deemed to be circumstantial. Still,
Speaker 1: Lizzie's story changed multiple times. It was rumored she attempted
Speaker 1: to buy poison days before the murders, and that she
Speaker 1: burned dresses days after the crime. The apparent murder weapon,
Speaker 1: an axe found in the basement, was never fingerprinted because
Speaker 1: the Fall River police were wary of that new technology.
Speaker 1: All of this, paired with Lizzie's wholesome upbringing and image,
Speaker 1: convinced the Jerry to acquit her. After nearly a year
Speaker 1: in jail, Lizzie was acquitted in June, but acquittal or not,
Speaker 1: the community of Fall River still very much believed Lizzie
Speaker 1: had committed the crimes, and they weren't shy about saying it.
Speaker 1: So Lizzie and her sister did what any normal person
Speaker 1: who had been accused of murder in a close knit
Speaker 1: town would do. They used the inheritance of their fathers
Speaker 1: to buy a fourteen room mansion on the hill, the
Speaker 1: wealthiest part of town, and proceeded to live the lifestyle
Speaker 1: Lizzie hit always dreamed of, right in front of everyone
Speaker 1: who thought she had killed her parents and old time friends.
Speaker 1: In twilight plays and starry nights and sunny days, come
Speaker 1: trooping up the misty ways when my fire burns low.
Speaker 1: These words are carved above the fireplace in the library
Speaker 1: at Maplecroft and seemed to indicate the hope that Lizzie
Speaker 1: had for her new life. The poem itself is taken
Speaker 1: from a common school English literature textbook published in eighteen
Speaker 1: seventy six. However, Lizzie seems to have changed the last
Speaker 1: line because it originally stated when my cows come home.
Speaker 1: Definitely not as romantic. Lizzie and her sister Emma moved
Speaker 1: into Maplecroft in September of eighteen. Lizzie dubbed the house
Speaker 1: Maplecroft at that time and had the name etched on
Speaker 1: the front steps, though no one can find her source
Speaker 1: for the name. The home almost immediately drew considerable interest,
Speaker 1: Boasting fourteen rooms, eight of which were bedrooms, was numerous
Speaker 1: bathrooms in a modest six fireplaces. It was one of
Speaker 1: the largest homes on the hill at the time. The
Speaker 1: Fall River Daily Globe reported that it almost immediately became
Speaker 1: a mecca of innumerable sightseers. Year after year, the public
Speaker 1: was not kind to Lizzie. Children constantly through gravel at
Speaker 1: her windows, disturbed her lawn, threw rotten eggs at the house,
Speaker 1: and ding dong ditched her. Hilda Gifford, the daughter of
Speaker 1: a Fall River jeweler, lived nearby. On Halloween, she and
Speaker 1: her friends would draw straws. The loser had to ring
Speaker 1: Lizzie's doorbell. A morbid but now very well known rhyme
Speaker 1: began making its rounds locally. Lizzie Borden took an X
Speaker 1: and gave her mother forty wax. When she saw what
Speaker 1: she had done, she gave her father forty one. Andrew
Speaker 1: Borden is now dead. Lizzie hit him on the head
Speaker 1: up in heaven. He will sing on the gallows. She
Speaker 1: will swing as time passed. Reports were that Lizzie lived
Speaker 1: as a recluse. Her best friends prior to the murders
Speaker 1: abandoned her. The society she participated in prior to the
Speaker 1: trial snubbed her. Afterwards, she was ostracized, an outcast, and
Speaker 1: it's described that when she walked down the street, her
Speaker 1: nearest neighbors passed her by without a nod or sign
Speaker 1: of recognition. But there are glimmers and reports of a
Speaker 1: different Lizzie emerging. In nineteen o five, she legally changed
Speaker 1: her name to Elizabeth. The company she lacked from humans
Speaker 1: she made up for with her animals. She had two
Speaker 1: purebred French bulldogs who rarely left her side, and singing
Speaker 1: canaries in her home. She had squirrel houses built around
Speaker 1: maple croft, and she would feed them herself, allowing the
Speaker 1: little animals to climb her arms and sit on her shoulders.
Speaker 1: She sent her friend's children birthday cards and signed them
Speaker 1: Anti Borden. She played cribbage under the trees and gathered
Speaker 1: wildflowers on warm summer days. She hired chauffeurs and live
Speaker 1: in maids, and visited her father's grave in the winter.
Speaker 1: The cemetery foreman Terence J. Lomax had his men shovel
Speaker 1: a path to the Boorden plot for her. Lizabeth also
Speaker 1: brought some of the first cars to the neighborhood. She
Speaker 1: owned a nineteen twenty three Lincoln and a nineteen Buick.
Speaker 1: Most notably, by that time, she was known to have
Speaker 1: her chauffeur pull over when she saw children so she
Speaker 1: could pass out candy to them. In the midst of
Speaker 1: all this, there was one relationship that deteriorated to the
Speaker 1: point of no return, that of Elizabeth and her sister Emma.
Speaker 1: Keep in mind Elizabeth and Emma's mother died of uterine
Speaker 1: congestion a few years after Elizabeth was born. Their mother
Speaker 1: made then twelve year old Emma promised she would look
Speaker 1: after Elizabeth, a promise she upheld until nineteen o five.
Speaker 1: Elizabeth apparently befriended a Boston actress by the name of
Speaker 1: Nance O'Neil. Some reports indicate the friendship may have been
Speaker 1: more than platonic, but this remains unverified. Apparently, Emma tired
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth's frivolity with not only their funds but their privacy,
Speaker 1: as Elizabeth began entertaining friends she met in Boston. For years,
Speaker 1: it was an open secret that Elizabeth and Emma did
Speaker 1: not agree and were constantly at odds in the home,
Speaker 1: but the parties were the fine an old straw, and
Speaker 1: after some urging from friends, Emma packed her belongings and
Speaker 1: left the French Street mansion, never again to set foot
Speaker 1: within its doors or talk to Elizabeth. It's hard to
Speaker 1: imagine what transpired between those two sisters over so many years,
Speaker 1: from the moment a dying mother begged her twelve year
Speaker 1: old child to look after her little sister, to the
Speaker 1: horrifying murders, to the moment that door slam shut as
Speaker 1: Emma never looked back. Elizabeth's health began to decline in
Speaker 1: nineteen six, and she would not recover. It was discovered
Speaker 1: by the local press that a Mary Smith Borden, who
Speaker 1: had checked into Providence Hospital with gallbladder trouble, was actually Elizabeth.
Speaker 1: It was also reported that she was a troublesome patient.
Speaker 1: There are various explanations for her eventual death in nineteen
Speaker 1: seven at the age of sixty seven. Some say heart disease,
Speaker 1: others say pneumonia, but she most certainly died at Maplecroft
Speaker 1: and was waked in the parlor her A handful of
Speaker 1: friends supposedly attended a funeral service in the home, Yet
Speaker 1: a soloist hired to sing a hymn during the service
Speaker 1: said otherwise. In her words, she rang the bell and
Speaker 1: a gentleman said, follow me. You're to stand beside the fireplace.
Speaker 1: She says, So I stood there and sang that song
Speaker 1: to an empty room. I never saw a soul but
Speaker 1: that one man. After the wake, Elizabeth was buried at
Speaker 1: sunset with only the undertaker's assistance. Present. Rumors are that
Speaker 1: she demanded a concrete slab be put over her coffin
Speaker 1: to deter curiosity seekers and grave robbers from disturbing her
Speaker 1: final resting place. Her final resting place which happens to
Speaker 1: be next to her father and stepmother in the family plot.
Speaker 1: At the time of her death, Elizabeth was worth over
Speaker 1: two hundred fifty thousand dollars almost five million dollars by
Speaker 1: today's standards. Her will left sizeable donations to the local
Speaker 1: animal rescue, plus smaller sums to numerous cousins and friends.
Speaker 1: She also left money to tend to her father's grave
Speaker 1: in perpetuity to her sister, she left nothing, saying she
Speaker 1: had the means to look after herself. Nine days after
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's death, and after twenty two years of not speaking,
Speaker 1: Emma Boorden passed away in her home in Newmarket, New Hampshire. Emma, too,
Speaker 1: was buried in the family plot in Fall River. So
Speaker 1: why why did Lizabeth remain in Fall River all those
Speaker 1: years staring down her detractors when she could have so
Speaker 1: easily gone elsewhere and started fresh. To quote Lizabeth directly,
Speaker 1: when the truth comes out about this murder, I want
Speaker 1: to be living here so I can walk down town
Speaker 1: and meet those of my old friends who have been
Speaker 1: cutting me for all these years. It's been over one
Speaker 1: hundred twenty five years, and no one else was ever arrested.
Speaker 1: For the murders, and speculation is intense even today. It
Speaker 1: makes you wonder if Lizabeth still walks the halls of
Speaker 1: Maplecroft waiting for her moment of vindication. Personally, I absolutely
Speaker 1: think that she does. And coming up next we'll talk
Speaker 1: about why. So I'm here now with Sue Vigory, who
Speaker 1: is an integral part of not only Maplecroft but also
Speaker 1: the original murder house, the Lizzie Boarden House that's so
Speaker 1: famous as well, and she has positions in both locations.
Speaker 1: At the Lizzie Boarden House she is a tour guide,
Speaker 1: but at Maplecroft she is the caretaker. And so she's
Speaker 1: here to answer some of my questions about Maplecroft and
Speaker 1: tell us some of the more interesting experiences people have
Speaker 1: had their including herself, plus what she thinks is actually
Speaker 1: going on there. So let's ask her a few questions.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being here, Sue, my pleasure. So how long
Speaker 1: have you been working in the realm of Lizzie Borden? Uh?
Speaker 1: And then about ten years? I'd say, okay, So you
Speaker 1: started at I hate to call it this, but you
Speaker 1: started at the murder House, right and and uh did
Speaker 1: you start as a tour guide? I did, Yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: And now that you're working at both houses, which house
Speaker 1: do you find yourself drawn to more? Well, that's tough
Speaker 1: to say. I'm drawn to both houses. You know, I
Speaker 1: was always fascinated by her entire life. Being able to
Speaker 1: come into Maplecroft was really a bucket list. I never
Speaker 1: thought i'd see that that was a process. I mean,
Speaker 1: it seemed like, you know, Maplecroft has been privately owned
Speaker 1: for so long, and it just seemed only fitting that
Speaker 1: the folks who owned the Second Street house would end
Speaker 1: up purchasing Maplecroft. And I think the original intent was
Speaker 1: to open it up to the public right, to make
Speaker 1: it a bed and breakfast. Yeah, that's what they wanted
Speaker 1: to do, bed and breakfast, or we would have settled
Speaker 1: for tours. The city won't allow either. That's unfortunate because
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, Fall River is actually a
Speaker 1: really interesting city, and you know, when I first moved
Speaker 1: into this area, I was just fascinated with the history
Speaker 1: there and the architecture. And you know that there are
Speaker 1: a few tourist spots there, like Battleship Cove. But I
Speaker 1: do feel like so many people are drawn to the
Speaker 1: story of Lizzie Borden because it's just so mysterious and
Speaker 1: remains unsolved to this day. And you know, it attracts
Speaker 1: not only history buffs but also paranormal folks and true
Speaker 1: crime aficionados. So it just seems like such a great
Speaker 1: opportunity for the city. You would think right that they
Speaker 1: would welcome a second location, but they don't. Yeah, people
Speaker 1: are constantly sending me links to the house. I know
Speaker 1: it's on the market again now and they're always like,
Speaker 1: if you should buy it, and man, it would be
Speaker 1: very too late on that one. I don't know who
Speaker 1: will say so now, having spent so much time in
Speaker 1: both houses, what do you think is the difference in
Speaker 1: the energy and both of the homes? Well, there's definitely
Speaker 1: a lighter energy here at Maplecroft, although that third floor
Speaker 1: can be a little dark at times. Isn't the third
Speaker 1: floor where the caretaker lives or whoever living there lives. Well,
Speaker 1: no one lives here now, I mean they wanted me
Speaker 1: to live here, but I'm here as much as I can,
Speaker 1: but I don't really want to move in. So the
Speaker 1: house uh doesn't have anyone living on the third floor
Speaker 1: at the moment. Uh. And so what do you not
Speaker 1: want to move in because you don't want to move
Speaker 1: from your location now or is it for other reasons?
Speaker 1: I don't think I would be comfortable trying to sleep here. Well,
Speaker 1: that's interesting because I've spent a lot of time in
Speaker 1: Maplecroft and um, I've investigated a number of times, and
Speaker 1: you know, at first, it was almost like getting to
Speaker 1: know a live person, Like it was almost like meeting
Speaker 1: someone who's closed off and then trying to kind of
Speaker 1: get them to open up to you, you know, trying
Speaker 1: to think of different ways to get the house to
Speaker 1: speak to you, and and it took a while, but
Speaker 1: I do feel like now when I go back that
Speaker 1: the house or potentially Elizabeth remembers me like, it feels
Speaker 1: very different than when I first went there. Has that
Speaker 1: been the same for you? Oh? Yeah, I have no
Speaker 1: problem with her. It's not her that worries me. There's
Speaker 1: actually a man on the third floor, and I don't
Speaker 1: know who he is. But I've tried laying on a
Speaker 1: bed up there by myself, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: the whole bed staters she aging and I know that's
Speaker 1: not her doing that. I've seen a full fledged shadow
Speaker 1: figure on the third floor again not her. That's interesting
Speaker 1: because when we investigated there, we didn't investigate the third
Speaker 1: floor because that's where the person who was taking care
Speaker 1: of the house at the time lived, and they said
Speaker 1: there really wasn't anything going on up there. But as
Speaker 1: we've learned so many times over the years investigating these spaces,
Speaker 1: sometimes the investigations themselves actually attract different spirits. And not
Speaker 1: to mention, the house has more of a history than
Speaker 1: just Elizabeth or Lizzie. You know, someone built it before
Speaker 1: she bought it, and then people lived there long after
Speaker 1: she passed. M h. When you investigated, did you get
Speaker 1: a man come through speaking for her? A lot? Never,
Speaker 1: So that's really interesting. It was at first very quiet, uh,
Speaker 1: and then as we investigated, she kind of started becoming
Speaker 1: more comfortable with us, and and I've long theorized that
Speaker 1: that's because we made kind of a pact after night
Speaker 1: one or two that we weren't going to bring up
Speaker 1: the murders anymore and we were just going to talk
Speaker 1: to her about, you know, post murder life, I guess,
Speaker 1: and I think that was what really brought her out more.
Speaker 1: And I don't think we've got any evidence of a man,
Speaker 1: but it's also been a while, and I don't think
Speaker 1: the third floor was opened up then, so maybe you've
Speaker 1: found someone new. Yeah, I mean I've done the same
Speaker 1: with her Amy. We do run ghost hunts here, but
Speaker 1: we don't allow paranormal teams to rent out the house.
Speaker 1: Any ghostman has to be through us. That way, I
Speaker 1: can kind of control what people say, and that's what
Speaker 1: we tell them. It's all about respect. We don't want
Speaker 1: the other place mentioned. All your questions have to pertain
Speaker 1: to her life here, and you know, we try and
Speaker 1: keep it her sanctuary, same as you and Adam did.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that happens in the house you feel
Speaker 1: like maybe rouse her up a little bit. I think
Speaker 1: when we have too many people in the house, you
Speaker 1: can hear her a little bit stomping around upstairs. Occasionally
Speaker 1: somebody might say something and you'll hear a door slam.
Speaker 1: Other than that, she um, she's kind of quiet. We
Speaker 1: get the knocking now and then, but I don't think
Speaker 1: that's her right. And so when she starts doing that,
Speaker 1: what do you do to calm her down? And I'll
Speaker 1: just say, oh, I'm sorry, are you in this part
Speaker 1: of the house, will leave you be, We'll go somewhere else.
Speaker 1: So what would you say, And all the time you've
Speaker 1: spent at Maplecrofts, what would you say is the strangest
Speaker 1: experience that you've had there? Over the pandemic. We did
Speaker 1: a show doc Zone and we were filming on the
Speaker 1: third floor again and somebody was doing the SDS method
Speaker 1: and she kept yelling my first and last name over
Speaker 1: the spirit box and then I saw a full fledged
Speaker 1: shadow figure stand right in the doorway of the room.
Speaker 1: As soon as I pointed it out, you actually saw
Speaker 1: the shadow run m. Probably the scariest thing was when
Speaker 1: I was alone on the third floor, laying on the
Speaker 1: bed in the whole bed started it just shake. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that would be disconcerting. I can see now why
Speaker 1: you don't want to move in there. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: it scares me, but it fascinates me at the same time,
Speaker 1: I just would rather come and go. What do you
Speaker 1: what would you say is the strangest or scariest experience
Speaker 1: you've heard of anyone else having in the home? I
Speaker 1: don't know. Amy. Down in a basement we were doing
Speaker 1: a ghost hunt and a woman got touched and it
Speaker 1: really freaked her out. I mean literally, anybody else in
Speaker 1: the room could have been touched and it wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been that kind of reaction. But she was touched, and
Speaker 1: I happen to have the spirit box going. I said, hey,
Speaker 1: whoever just touched her, could you please not do that?
Speaker 1: You scared her? And over the spirit box he just said,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Well, she was so scared. She actually ended
Speaker 1: up leaving the ghost on after she validated, you know,
Speaker 1: somebody actually validating that they did touch her. If free
Speaker 1: to her, that was enough for her. Yeah, so that
Speaker 1: was a little bit unnerving. Now, we did some experimenting
Speaker 1: when Adam and I investigated with Kindred Spirits, we did
Speaker 1: some investigating and experimenting where we tried to kind of
Speaker 1: see if the two locations were connected, and you know,
Speaker 1: we weren't sure if maybe some energy or spirits travel
Speaker 1: between the two houses. Do you think that that happens.
Speaker 1: I don't ever sense any of the spirits from the
Speaker 1: other house in this house, but I have sent her
Speaker 1: at the other location, so I do think that she's
Speaker 1: able to travel back and forth. That would make sense
Speaker 1: because really the other spirits and theory passed before you know,
Speaker 1: she would have moved into Maplecroft and so they wouldn't
Speaker 1: even know that it existed in her world, and so
Speaker 1: that actually makes sense. I hadn't thought of it that
Speaker 1: way before. Do you think that there is any evidence
Speaker 1: that Emma Porton might be in the home or might
Speaker 1: come to the house. Well, I don't know if it's evident.
Speaker 1: I have had a psychic in the house to tell
Speaker 1: me that she was here. But then again, you've taken
Speaker 1: a word of someone else. I didn't personally get her
Speaker 1: name come through or anything like that. It just seems
Speaker 1: so strange to me, Like I was just I was
Speaker 1: just recently going through all the history again, and you know,
Speaker 1: to think that those sisters were joined for so long
Speaker 1: and then it just ended one day, and then still
Speaker 1: they end up dying within two weeks of each other
Speaker 1: with without even knowing each other was ill. And it
Speaker 1: makes me wonder if maybe they've tried to mend defenses
Speaker 1: in the afterlife or or you know, it's I just
Speaker 1: I guess, and so many of my investigations I've seen
Speaker 1: that happen where people have these kind of regrets as
Speaker 1: far as how relationships went in their living years. And
Speaker 1: I guess there's a part of me that kind of
Speaker 1: hopes that Lizzie and Emma might you know, meet up
Speaker 1: in the afterlife. So I was thinking Maplecroft might be
Speaker 1: the perfect place for that, if it would ever happen,
Speaker 1: And maybe they did. I just I haven't personally gotten
Speaker 1: any evidence of that, but it's possible absolutely. Um, is
Speaker 1: the house still on the market. It is? It is.
Speaker 1: This house is Maplecroft, And so Maplecroft is still on
Speaker 1: the market. It's been on the market for a while.
Speaker 1: When it is sold, or if it is sold, what
Speaker 1: do you hope to see the new owners do? I
Speaker 1: think I would rather it became the private family home,
Speaker 1: to be honest, So you you would like it to
Speaker 1: just be kind of what it was originally intended, a
Speaker 1: beautiful home for a family exactly, unless they were going
Speaker 1: to do respectful tours like we had in mind. I
Speaker 1: don't want it to be another place where you get
Speaker 1: all these paranormal groups coming over. School man about the
Speaker 1: other house, I think that would be awful. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know it is. It is a beautiful home. Like you
Speaker 1: walk in and there's this grand staircase to the left,
Speaker 1: and then to the right there's this gorgeous parlor, and
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't state enough just what a stunning
Speaker 1: stunning residents it is and and I think it would
Speaker 1: be great for it to be just privately owned and
Speaker 1: kind of tucked away. But you know, it's one of
Speaker 1: those places I just think people will not stop being
Speaker 1: curious about. You know, I've just seen this happen so
Speaker 1: many times in places like the Amityville House and such,
Speaker 1: where they almost become tourist attractions even though they're not open.
Speaker 1: People stop and they take photos out front and things
Speaker 1: like that, and I wonder if that's kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: stopping people from buying the house. Yeah. I do know
Speaker 1: one of the previous owners, he actually put a boat
Speaker 1: across the word Maplecroft to try and you know, detur people.
Speaker 1: The word Maplecroft is one of the things that Lizzie
Speaker 1: put there. You know, there are just that there are
Speaker 1: still a lot of little touches in there that Lizzie,
Speaker 1: I should say, Elizabeth, Elizabeth put there herself, and you
Speaker 1: know that's that's fascinating and you know it just feels
Speaker 1: like her when you go there. Now. Question for you,
Speaker 1: I know you're in Maplecroft right now, and so this
Speaker 1: is kind of a touchy question to ask, but I
Speaker 1: have to ask it. I didn't know you were really
Speaker 1: be doing your interview while you were actually in the house.
Speaker 1: So that being said, do you think Lizabeth or Lizzie
Speaker 1: did it? Well, hopefully she's not listening, but I mean
Speaker 1: I would have to say so. But I don't think
Speaker 1: people say all the time for the money. I don't
Speaker 1: think so. I think there was something else going on.
Speaker 1: I always said, if she did it, there was a
Speaker 1: good reason, a better reason for it. There's a sound
Speaker 1: upstairs as I was saying that, Look great, Sorry, I
Speaker 1: don't mean this is to herd up for you over there. No,
Speaker 1: I mean I've actually told to this myself in anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and maybe you know, I know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: rumors as far as what could have gone on between
Speaker 1: you know, her family, A lot of money matters. There's
Speaker 1: claims of abuse, you know, there's claims that you know,
Speaker 1: she had some sort of relationship with the maid. I mean,
Speaker 1: all of these things that we will never ever know
Speaker 1: the truth on. And I'm sure you know, she probably
Speaker 1: never expected for people to still be talking about it
Speaker 1: so many years later. And I just I think it's
Speaker 1: it's just so kind of magical to me that we
Speaker 1: have this kind of direct line to her still through Maplecroft,
Speaker 1: like I fully believe she is there. I do like
Speaker 1: how curated you are about like you know what people say,
Speaker 1: you know, you're careful about what they bring up, because
Speaker 1: I think that's the only way that she will talk
Speaker 1: to people. Uh. And I think it's also just an
Speaker 1: important lesson and the fact that you know, just because
Speaker 1: we pass away doesn't mean we stop being human, and
Speaker 1: that there's a respect level it needs to happen there.
Speaker 1: But when we filmed there and we were shooting and investigating,
Speaker 1: you know, we were there for multiple days and we've
Speaker 1: been back a number of times, and one of our
Speaker 1: producers just kept asking me to ask her if she
Speaker 1: did it over and over again. He was like, you
Speaker 1: just you need to ask her, You need to ask
Speaker 1: her she did it. And I refused. I said I
Speaker 1: won't because I've gained her trust. Like I've spent so
Speaker 1: many days here talking to her and she's finally talking
Speaker 1: to me, and I have to come back to this
Speaker 1: house again and again, and I don't want to ruin
Speaker 1: this right. I didn't want to say though that you know,
Speaker 1: that's mainly the reason that only you and Adam were
Speaker 1: allowed in this house because of your level of respect
Speaker 1: to her. We knew we could count on that from you, guys. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you. We Adam and I as investigators really strive too,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of in part the same respect to
Speaker 1: the dead as we do to the living. You know.
Speaker 1: We we talked to them as though they're standing right
Speaker 1: in front of us, living and breathing. So do I. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's why I like you so much. I've actually,
Speaker 1: for people listening, I've known Sue for many years at
Speaker 1: this point, you know, we met through the Lizzie Borden
Speaker 1: House and now through Maplecroft. She's actually featured on an
Speaker 1: episode of Kindred Spirits too. Now you were on the
Speaker 1: Maplecroft one too, right, yeah, briefly. Yeah, so she's a
Speaker 1: regular at this point. Um. You know, so I dug
Speaker 1: into the history a lot for the podcast. I mean
Speaker 1: obviously I have in the past as well. And just
Speaker 1: from what you've heard and what you've studied, what do
Speaker 1: you think life was like for Elizabeth at Maplecroft. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it was a combination of things. She had
Speaker 1: a lot of good times here. Her servants were very
Speaker 1: loyal to her, She had good friends, She loved to travel.
Speaker 1: She finally got the high life on the hill. But
Speaker 1: then she also was snubbed by neighbors. You know, they
Speaker 1: made up that little nursery rhyme and they would actually
Speaker 1: sing it outside of this house, throw eggs at the
Speaker 1: side of the house. So they were her bad days
Speaker 1: in here. But I think for the most part she
Speaker 1: loved this place. Oh. The other thing is she had
Speaker 1: a lot of animals in the home, right, She had
Speaker 1: her dogs, she had canaries, she sent squirrels outside. Have
Speaker 1: you guys ever found any evidence of any spirit animals
Speaker 1: in the home, because I've been hearing about that a
Speaker 1: lot lately. Actually, yes, we've gotten dogs. I've heard a
Speaker 1: cat in the house before. And um, you remember Bundy, Cindy, Yeah, she,
Speaker 1: Um actually had this weird feeling that there was a
Speaker 1: monkey still in this house. Now, Elizabeth did not own
Speaker 1: a monkey, but a previous family actually kept a monkey
Speaker 1: in here. Oh, and it's funny because Cindy said that
Speaker 1: to me one day and then not that long ago,
Speaker 1: like two weeks ago. Um, I had a psychic medium
Speaker 1: knock at the side door, and I left the woman
Speaker 1: and I was speaking to her, and um, she turned
Speaker 1: to Cindy and said, did you see like a short
Speaker 1: shadow figure up a staircase since And he's like yeah,
Speaker 1: She's like, that was a monkey. Sydney and I just
Speaker 1: looked at her. Other said what a monkey? I had
Speaker 1: no idea. There's a new one for me. Yes, the
Speaker 1: Sylvia family kept a monkey at Maplecroft. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: Maplecroft has a very interesting history in addition to Elizabeth
Speaker 1: living there. Oh yes, now with everything you know, like,
Speaker 1: I have heard that she stayed in Paul River because
Speaker 1: she wanted people to look her in the eye again
Speaker 1: once she was vindicated. Do you think that's actually why
Speaker 1: she stayed there? Well, you know, I always wondered that amy.
Speaker 1: You know, here she is, she's inherited millions of dollars. Essentially,
Speaker 1: she could have lived anywhere in the world anonymously, had
Speaker 1: this great life. Why stay on the hill? Will you
Speaker 1: being ostracized? And as I studied her life here, I
Speaker 1: discovered a friend Dad asked her that same question, and
Speaker 1: you're correct. Her response to her friend was because I
Speaker 1: want to be among these same people when I'm found
Speaker 1: to be innocent. And I did hear. She later regretted
Speaker 1: that before she died. Why do you think she regretted it? Well,
Speaker 1: because the innocent thing never really happened for her, and
Speaker 1: you know, she wasted all that time trying to prove
Speaker 1: her innocence. Really yeah, I mean it's strange because she
Speaker 1: didn't really do anything to, you know, try to prove
Speaker 1: her innocence after that, She just kind of assumed it
Speaker 1: would have happened eventually, and she just lived her life.
Speaker 1: And like you said, she she literally could have gone anywhere.
Speaker 1: She had enough money to move, even out of the
Speaker 1: country if she wanted to, but instead she stayed where
Speaker 1: everyone thought she had acts murdered her parents, which is
Speaker 1: such a crazy concept to me. And what's crazy about
Speaker 1: it is okay, uh, you know, there were other people
Speaker 1: on the scene over the course of time. Usually somebody talks,
Speaker 1: something is said. Never not in this case, never, no, No.
Speaker 1: I do remember I heard that there was some sort
Speaker 1: of deathbed confession from Bridget that made at some point,
Speaker 1: but that's not confirmed. Do you know anything about that.
Speaker 1: Supposedly she thought she was dying and sent for her friend.
Speaker 1: It took this friend a little bit to reach her,
Speaker 1: and by the time the friend did, she had recovered
Speaker 1: and didn't say anything. That whole story started from a Butte,
Speaker 1: Montana librarian as it was told to her, So nobody
Speaker 1: really knows if that even occurred at all. Right, so
Speaker 1: you had another game of historical telephone. Really, well, is
Speaker 1: there anything else you think people need to know about
Speaker 1: Maple Croft? Because I feel like right now, you know
Speaker 1: there there is some access to it. But I just
Speaker 1: have a hunch that at some point Maple Croft is
Speaker 1: going to be closed back up to the public like
Speaker 1: it has been for so many years. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: is there anything you want the world to know about
Speaker 1: that house? I mean, it was very special for her
Speaker 1: in her lifetime, and I just hope whoever's hands it
Speaker 1: falls into treats it with the same respect no matter
Speaker 1: what they do with it. And you know, there are
Speaker 1: some opportunities to still see the house if you go
Speaker 1: to the other house's website. We do try and conduct
Speaker 1: them things here at the house periodically. It may be
Speaker 1: the only opportunity. Guys. That's good to know. So folks listening,
Speaker 1: If you do head to New England, obviously you you'll
Speaker 1: probably want to pay a visit to the Lizzie Borden House,
Speaker 1: but inquire about Maplecroft. See if it's a place you
Speaker 1: can still get into, because my hunch is that it
Speaker 1: won't be available to us much longer. And I feel
Speaker 1: like if Lizzie was haunting either house, it's definitely Maplecroft.
Speaker 1: So having been there, it's a very special place. And Sue,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my
Speaker 1: questions about this. Um. You your lovely as always. I
Speaker 1: can't wait to see you in person again. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's my pleasure anytime I can talk about this house.
Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, Well, stay safe over there and
Speaker 1: watch out for that third floor. Will call me if
Speaker 1: you need me already. Thank you so much. Do I
Speaker 1: appreciate it? Alright, have a great day. Thanks you too.
Speaker 1: The more I investigate and read about Elizabeth, the more
Speaker 1: inclined I am to say that I'm just not sure
Speaker 1: whether she killed her parents. I think it's incredible that
Speaker 1: we potentially have a direct line to her through her
Speaker 1: spirit at Maplecroft, and I do so hope that whoever
Speaker 1: takes ownership of the home next respects that. In the meantime,
Speaker 1: did you know that all the legal papers from her
Speaker 1: trial sit in a five drawer filing cabinet at the
Speaker 1: law firm that represented her. It's been locked since the
Speaker 1: crime and remains that way to this day, since the
Speaker 1: law firm is still very much in existence and practicing.
Speaker 1: An attorney client privilege does not end when someone dies.
Speaker 1: I often think of that filing cabinet tucked away in
Speaker 1: that office and all the secrets that it holds, all
Speaker 1: the secrets we will most likely now of her. No,
Speaker 1: since the recording of this episode, we have lost someone
Speaker 1: very integral to the story I just told and that
Speaker 1: you just heard. My dear friend, Leanne Wilbur, who was
Speaker 1: co owner of the Lizzie Boarden House and of Maple Croft,
Speaker 1: left us on June five, quite unexpectedly. I'm pretty heartbroken
Speaker 1: over it. I've known Leanne for a number of years,
Speaker 1: and she always welcomed me to Maplecroft and the Lizzie
Speaker 1: Boardenhouse with open arms. She was a lovely human being,
Speaker 1: and I just I'm still a little shell shocked by it.
Speaker 1: So this episode is dedicated to her memory and to
Speaker 1: all the wonderful times we shared. So thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: Haunted Road is a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. The podcast is written
Speaker 1: and hosted by Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Manky,
Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. The show is produced by
Speaker 1: rema Ill Kali and Trevor Young. Taylor Haggerdorn is the
Speaker 1: show's researcher. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.