WEBVTT - Becoming a Beacon for Change in the Navy with Jeni Brett 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.720 Please be advised the following episode contains references to violence 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:13.600 and may not be suitable for all listeners. This is 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.200 Vets You Should Know, a podcast from My Heart Radio 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.000 celebrating the many who have selflessly put their lives on 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.160 the line to serve their country and the armed forces. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.480 Every Veteran's Day, we as a country honor and commemorate 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.400 the people who fight for our freedom and defend our country. 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.080 And in this four part series, you'll hear from these 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.560 individuals as they share their unique experiences in the military 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.040 and the lessons they learned that carried them into their 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.560 new roles in civilian life. In this episode, I speak 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.200 with retired U. S. Navy Chief so in Our Technician, 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.920 Jenny Brett. Jenny served in the Navy for twenty years, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.840 but fourteen months into her service, Jenny was sexually assaulted. 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.240 Rather than let this deter her, she used these events 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.560 to fuel her. She vowed to become an ally for 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.680 those who would find themselves in similar situations. She wanted 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.120 other women and lgbt Q members of the name Be 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.600 to know that they had someone on their side. Today, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.800 Jenny works tirelessly to research and identify safe spaces for 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:14.240 women and LGBTQ veterans. Hi Jenny, Hi, Well, I'm super 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.640 happy to have you here, and let's start from the beginning. 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:18.880 I want to go back to where you grew up. 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.400 You know, what was it like at home. I grew 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:26.520 up in northeastern the United States. I grew up in 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.480 a little town called North Attleborough, Massachusetts. UM. It was 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:35.080 by all accounts idyllic. I am from a middle class, 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.839 very white family in a middle class, very white town. 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.520 Everybody had a quarter acre lawn, and everybody's lawn was 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.959 always done really well, and everybody had nice cars in 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.280 the garage. And it was a very upper middle class upbringing. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.880 My parents were married until I was out of the house, 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.320 and I went to a great high school and I 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.600 went to call I was actually seventeen when I graduated 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.320 high school, and I went to college very briefly, and 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:05.080 I I knew leaving high school that college was not 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.840 going to be for me. I just wasn't ready for 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.600 college yet, and so I waited long enough till I 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.920 turned eighteen, UM, and then immediately enlisted in the military. 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:17.640 When I was a kid, I knew there was something 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.120 else besides just my little hometown in Massachusetts, and I 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.600 wanted to get at it, but I didn't know how 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.320 to do it except to join the military. It was 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.880 kind of like my version of joining the circus. At 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.760 that point in the late nineties, they were heavily recruiting women, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.520 um and I knew that. I knew. That's why one 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.320 of the reasons why I wanted to enlist was Tailhook 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:41.880 was still very much sort of a big deal. I 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.320 don't know if you know what Tailhook is, or if 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.560 anyone knows the Tailhook is anymore, because it happened such 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.000 a long time ago. But in the late nineties mid nineties, 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.280 there was a military convention called the Tailhook Association, and 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:59.200 they got together and there was some really inappropriate gender 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.600 based violence, since some sexual harassment, and there were um 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.840 sex workers hired to work for this organization, and just 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.959 a whole lot of really inappropriate behavior. It made the news. 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.919 A woman blew the whistle on it. Her name is 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:19.680 Pola Cogglin. She's amazing. She still speaks about military sexual violence. 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.040 And the Navy's answer at the time, and all the 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.480 Joint chiefs of Staff decided we should put more women 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.160 in the military, and so women were going to be 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.440 allowed to be in ratings where they weren't allowed to 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.600 be in before, so there were more opportunities opening up 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.400 for women. Talk about your first year in the military 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:42.200 and and how different that was for you. Wow. So, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.640 like I said, I'm from my very white, middle class 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:51.760 town in Massachusetts and boot camp was a huge eye 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:57.040 opener for me. I mean, I was eighteen and had 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.440 never been hungry in my life, and I had always 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:04.400 had medical care. Um the the idea that someone had 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.240 signed away the rights to their child to their parents 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.680 in order to do this to get medical care because 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.159 they weren't able to feed their kids was shocking to me. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.480 Like to me, it was almost kind of a diversion 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.039 or like an escape, but to some people it was. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.680 It was a life change. It was a a necessary 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:32.320 decision in order to survive it. Sounds like your experience 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.120 in the Navy gave you a different perspective of the 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.240 world and some of the different struggles that people face 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:42.880 every day. It definitely opened my eyes to experiences like that. Um. So, 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.599 my best friend is still in the military. She is 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:51.120 a whole technician, she's a welder, she's an amazing little bulldog. 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.680 She is the coolest chick I've ever met in my life. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.279 But her partner. His parents were refugees from the Cahmer 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:02.080 rouge of Mong descent. They a hill tribe that lived 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.120 in the areas of Laos and Thailand and Cambodia. He 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:09.000 comes from a very large family. His parents weren't very 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.839 you know, well educated. They came here in the seventies 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.280 with virtually nothing. He became a citizen through the refugee process. 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.960 But for him it was definitely a way to pay 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.479 back what the US gave him. I mean, it gave 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.800 his family safety where he didn't. And I'm like tearing 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.560 up right now because it's a concept that I think 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.200 a lot of us don't understand. My parents did not 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:37.880 escape violence through the literal jungle carrying me to a 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.000 refugee camp, but that was that was his experience, and 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.640 so for him it was a payback thing. And then 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.160 my friend grew up in South Texas. She actually grew 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.240 up just outside of San Antonio where I am now 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.960 um and her family was military. She was homeschooled for 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.200 most of her schooling career, and her family was very, 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.039 very religious. But her dad was in the Air Force 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.440 and the Army both, and for her it was just 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:03.680 there was two things. It was their calling, it was 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.440 just what their family did. And two it was they 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.440 didn't have any money for college or you know, once 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.720 you turn eighteen, that's that's what you do. You you 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.159 leave and you you make your own way. And for her, 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:18.880 making her own way through the military was, you know, 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.800 the best option. Whereas for me, I could have gone 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:23.160 to college, but I would have had to do what 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:24.880 my parents wanted me to do, and I had to 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:26.599 go to the school that they wanted me to go to. 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.039 And I was kind of rebelling just by saying, I'm 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.400 not doing any of those things. I'm just gonna go 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.320 out on my own at eighteen. And I had to 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.360 find a job and a place to live and food, 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.240 and the Navy was like, hey, we have all of 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:43.680 those things. Yeah, very three, very different experiences within you know, 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:49.919 two of my friends and myself, many of us have 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.320 seen so in our technology depicts in the films or TV. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:54.960 But Jenny is the real deal and she has a 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.960 skill set. If you have, so, Jenny, tell me about 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.839 what a naval sonar technician does and what those responsibilities are. 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:14.120 So we are underwater, sub hunters. We're basically the ship's 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.520 last defense against a submarine threat. There's two kinds of 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.040 so our technicians, there's submarine or on our technicians and 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:27.480 their surface ships on our technicians. Submariners use sonar to navigate. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.360 It's how they survive, so for them, sonar is a 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.040 much um plays a much more important role. Sonar in 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.120 the Cold War was incredibly important. Now we work in 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.440 a multi unit way, so we work in conjunction with 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:47.600 aircraft and with helicopters, and we listen for subs, look 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:52.600 for subs. If need be, we can neutralize a sub threat. 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.960 The real plan is if we find one and we 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.040 think it's hostile, to run away and hope we managed 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.440 to get away into time. If you're a surface ship, 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:03.040 you don't want to go toe to toe with the 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.240 submarine because they can get much closer to you than 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.840 you can to them before you find out. I worked 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:14.160 on a system that is underwater fire control. So underwater 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.680 fire control is the torpedo system on board. So I 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.840 was sitting at the console that actually fired torpedoes, and 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.400 so they would send over a hostile contact and you 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.400 line up the ship in the right direction with the 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.480 submarine and so that your torpedo could actually hit it. 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.960 And finding a submarine is very very slow, neutralizing a 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.439 sub threat is very very quick. I mean, no one 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.960 has done that in the history of the United States 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.960 naval warfare in a very long time, and hopefully no 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.240 one ever has to again. But in practice, that was 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:53.880 a lot of fun. It's two hours of quietly sneaking 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.200 around in the water looking for a submarine and then 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:02.840 five minutes of the most intense you know, everybody's calling 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.920 things back and forth. You were a headset with two 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.040 different audio channels in it, so there's new five people 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.400 in each year talking back and forth, and everyone standing 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.160 behind your chair, like the captain is standing right behind 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.120 you and like literally breathing on your neck, and no 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.080 one knows what your screen says. It's kind of like 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.360 the matrix. Everything looks kind of weird, but I understand 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.000 what it says. And the guys and sonar are the 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:25.920 same way. People going to sonar and look and they're like, 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.520 what is that? It's just lines, but yeah, it's it 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.800 was pretty intense. Um. I really did enjoy it because 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.520 it's it makes you feel really important, like when when 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.320 you're sort of the last hope. Sonar is very interesting. 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.559 It's a lot of fun. It's it's very secret, squirrel. 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.240 You know, the vast majority of it is classified information. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.960 So it's interesting to know sort of what together parts 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.720 of the world can do in terms of their submarine 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:56.120 forces and their their naval sonar systems, and it's it's 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.920 really fun to work with other countries. Um, we worked 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:00.839 a lot with the Canadians, we were at the Australians, 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.720 we work at the Japanese. We've worked with lots and 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.720 lots of other Allied countries doing submarine stuff. So we 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.680 work with their aircraft, we work with their helicopters and 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.720 their their teams in their helicopter and their aircraft. So yeah, 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:19.920 it was really interesting. I know when you were in 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.680 the name of you doubt what sexual assault? Uh, do 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.560 you feel like that's somewhat common or with with women 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.520 of the military at least having to hear or be 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:33.160 exposed to it. I think it's incredibly common. I think 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:37.000 it's so common that a lot of women don't recognize it. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.920 I think it's accepted. There's a lot of just language 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:47.760 and small actions. Sometimes people call the micro aggressions. I'm 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.280 not really a fan of the term micro aggression. I 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.440 think it's just an aggression, but just the language and 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:58.000 the way that the military operates in general tends to 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:03.559 be not very welcome ming two people who are not 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.440 the norm. So yeah, I think I think it's very, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:12.960 very common. So I was sexually assaulted at nineteen. I 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.880 was in my initial training school and the guy who 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.520 assaulted me was older, he was a marine, he was married, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:21.960 and so I trusted him, and there were a lot 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.840 of red flags. His language was inappropriate, but there were 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.120 no women in my chain of command. They were all men, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:34.440 and I didn't have anyone to model appropriate behavior for me. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:39.920 I didn't have any women who could tell me that, hey, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.280 that's not okay and that's probably not safe. It was 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:47.200 my first time out of my little hometown. So when 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.840 I was sexually assaulted, he went through the n JP process. 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.600 It was not to my satisfaction. Um he was not 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.640 held accountable for his actions, and in fact, I was 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:04.880 held accountable for his actions. I realized that one of 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.000 the reasons that it went so badly for me was 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.600 that there was no one there to advise me. There 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:13.840 was no one to commiserate with me. And there was 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:18.160 no one to have warned me that it wasn't going 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:24.599 to be okay. Oftentimes women who report sexual assault in 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.199 the military are given the option in their service early, 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.600 but rather than leave, Jenny set our sides on becoming 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.400 an ally for others and a champion for fairness. After 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.880 the fact, I was taught this is normal, this is 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.920 what happens, and I'm sorry this happened to you, but 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.000 expect it from now on. And I didn't really know 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.120 what to do with that anger, and so I decided 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.319 to channel it into my work. There were newer girls 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.480 on base, and so they were, you know, men talking 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.120 about the newer girls, and and I thought, you know what, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.120 I didn't have anybody there for me, So I'm going 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.400 to be a support system for someone else behind me. 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:13.200 And I told myself, if I can change one person's 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.000 experience for the better, if I can stop what happened 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.320 to me from happening to one person, then I can sleep. 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.079 I made changes, and I intercepted talk gone wrong and 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.200 and just acted as a support system to as many 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.520 people as I could. And so every time I felt 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.360 like I had done something for someone that hadn't been 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.520 done for me, I felt a little bit better about it, 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.240 and then I got a little bit more serious about 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:43.800 trying to deliberately make that effort. My second enlistment was 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.839 so about seven years. I really saw that as my job. 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.920 I was like, you know what, I'm going to stay 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.040 just to do this. I'm gonna do my job, But 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.760 in my head, my goal was to be the person 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.480 that I needed when nobody was there for me. How 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.840 would you mentor other women within the service who experienced 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.520 what you did UM during the time that you enlisted. 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.400 I would first of all, let them know that they 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.200 are not the only one experiencing it. I think for 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:21.360 a lot of us within this culture. So often the 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.920 longer you stay in, the fewer of you there are. 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.400 So a lot of times I was the only woman 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.000 in my job field, I was the only woman in 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.960 a room a lot. One case, I was the only 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.040 woman of my rank on my ship UM, and that's 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.200 a very very lonely place to be. So I would 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.600 recommend that they seek each other out and find each 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.960 other and support each other, even across ranks and across 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.040 job fields and across departments and divisions. Because the way 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:52.920 that it's the easiest to fail is when you're doing 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.080 it alone, and the more support you have the better. 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.960 And then it's not just women who support us, it's 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.280 also men. And so I think more than mentoring the 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.600 women who I think are on the right track, honestly, 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.120 I would start with men and I would let them 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.800 know what women need from them in order to succeed. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.720 You retired from the Navy after twenty years. You went 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:19.720 back to school in Texas. Right, that's a big move. Absolutely, yeah. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.880 Um So. I am a grad student at the University 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:30.240 of Texas, San Antonio, and I am a cultural anthropologist 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:35.120 who studies the lasting impact of being in a military 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:40.320 environment on women and LGBTQ veterans um including transgender people 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.160 and gender nonconforming and gender non binary. I intend to 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:50.520 do research on wellness and well being and feelings of belonging, 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.400 looking at post military communities that veterans join up with. 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.200 Many women veterans do not feel comfortable in sort of 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.240 the traditional we call the Big Six Veterans organizations like 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.920 the Disabled American Veterans or like Vietnam Veterans of America, 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:12.320 the American Legion, or Veterans of Foreign Wars VFW. A 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.120 lot of those places are not necessarily welcoming to women, 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:21.360 to LGBTQ folks, and so a lot of women who 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.840 have felt uncomfortable get out of the military. A lot 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.320 of us sort of test out those places. We'll go 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:30.360 to the v A, you know, to get our care, 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.360 and feel uncomfortable with the v A, we go to 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.280 the VFW maybe, or we go to the legion and 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.200 we try and fit in in a couple of different places. 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.760 The problem is that a lot of us were not 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.120 comfortable within the military environment to begin with. It is 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:50.760 a very masculine environment. It's an intentionally masculine environment, and 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.920 a lot of us felt the need to perform an 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.640 excess of masculinity while we were in the military, and 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.280 we got out and sort of readjusted and fell back 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.840 into our lives, and so that environment is no longer 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.560 comfortable for us, and so in order to go into 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:09.800 those places, we kind of have to revert back to 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.160 our military selves, which are not comfortable. And a lot 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:17.960 of those places are places where especially older veterans, especially 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:23.760 the older male veterans go in order to revisit those 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:28.720 feelings of masculinity and that comfortability with their veteran personas 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.240 whereas we we want the connection, and we want the community, 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.760 and we want people who understand what it's like to 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.879 be us, but we don't want to have to perform 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.800 this veteran role, this sort of hero role that people expect. 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.720 I just want to be me and tell my stories 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.120 and talk to people who understand what I've been through 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:57.800 and what my experiences without having to overtly perform some role. 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.359 So my research is based in that I'm hoping to 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:09.640 find organizations where women veterans do feel comfortable and lgbt 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.520 Q veterans feel like they can be their whole selves 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.800 and not have to hide part of themselves or have 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.240 to perform in a certain way, and find out what 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:28.960 makes those organizations so welcoming. So far, I've only really 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.240 experienced one organization that I think is doing incredibly well, 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.560 and that's Focused Forward Fellowship, which is a fellowship for 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:42.040 student women veterans. They're all ages that come from every conflict, 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.360 they've served any amount of time. Some of them are 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.240 currently active duty. They're serving in the National Guard. Interestingly 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:53.040 for me, within that organization, it's only for women identifying 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:59.320 veterans and there are no male participants in any form 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.360 for the entire higher residential portion of the fellowship. So 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.879 women veterans apply, they go to Indiana, which is that 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.439 it's at Purdue University, and they're there for seventy two 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:13.520 hours for the residential portion, and then the rest of 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.159 the annual fellowship is conducted online and zoom groups like this. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.280 There are no men in a room with you at 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.040 any point for seventy two hours, and it's incredibly healing 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.960 to be able to feel safe, I think for the 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:33.119 women who take part, and it's incredibly healing to not 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:37.560 have to start at a baseline of explaining performative gender 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.719 behavior or why some of the talk that we experienced 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:45.800 was difficult, or how hard it is to not see representation. 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.760 In a lot of cases, women veterans are very isolated, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.960 and it's very very difficult because you don't have any 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.359 support systems, You don't have anyone to turn to. And 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.080 most of us sort of grow up in the Navy 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.080 being independent and being fiercely independent, and we've build these 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:05.879 very thick brick walls of self defense, and it's amazing 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:10.000 you can almost physically see those walls coming down with 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.040 these women in a room full of their sisters and 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.640 I want to know what the mechanism is that makes 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.960 that happen. Because Focus Forward Fellowship is one fellowship. It 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.920 takes place once a year with twenty women. But if 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.879 I could figure out what the tiny pieces that makes 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:33.040 that possible and tell everyone else so that we can 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:37.040 all have that experience, women, men, people who are lgbt Q, 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:43.840 gender non conforming, abled, disabled, everyone deserves to feel like 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.840 those women feel for that seventy two hours. I just 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:48.719 need to figure out what it is what I need 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:53.480 to distill that down to a dissertation. So what is 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.119 your goal by studying this? Meaning what action do you 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.720 hope to do? I would really love to be a professor. 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.639 I love academia. I think academia is an incredible way 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.879 to reach people sort before they feel like they're they've 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.600 completed their whole selves. I feel like college is really 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:16.360 a place where people see themselves as developing humans. They 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:20.680 just want change and they want to take on a 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.240 way to be better. And I think being a professor 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.600 is a really incredible opportunity to reach people that want 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.040 that change. I'm using my experience as a woman veteran 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:36.160 because that is my closest experience with dealing with situations 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:41.840 of unequal powers structures. Hopefully, whatever information I find and 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.960 whatever information I managed to distill out of these organizations 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:49.480 will be useful within any organization that has unequal power structures, 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.600 and we will will be useful to any person who 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:58.600 finds that they have spent time in a unequal power structure. 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:00.879 They felt like they had to form in a certain 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:05.040 way within an organization, and now they're struggling to sort 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.080 of readapt to a different life. I'm hoping that this 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:15.480 transcends the veteran experience into just people experience. It seems 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.400 like there might also be opportunity to influence policy change 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:23.480 in academia right absolutely, so. I hope to be able 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:28.880 to inform policymakers that are creating policies for the military, 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:35.199 influencing post veteran service organizations, places like Disabled Veterans of 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.639 America and Vietnam Veterans of America, UM, the American Legion, 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:43.480 those places that are kind of recognized as veterans, sort 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:49.240 of helping organizations about how their practices impact women and 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.119 LGBTQ veterans and how they could better serve us as 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.600 a community. I know inclusivity is very important to you. 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.399 How would you like the military to be more inclusive. 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.119 I think the very first thing the military can do 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:08.199 is to change the language that we use. Military folks 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:12.679 love to use the words male and female when describing people. UM. 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.199 I think it is very reductive. It reduces people to 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.520 their biological capability, and it assumes a binary that just 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:24.320 doesn't exist. Biology has told us for years and years 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.920 scientists know. Um. I think everyone knows at this point 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:31.359 that male and female are definitely on a spectrum and 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.920 people are just not one or the other. Um. In 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.000 some cases they're both. In some cases there neither. And 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.480 I think the use of that language puts the military 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:45.439 on the wrong foot and and starts in boot camp 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:49.639 being very exclusive and very binary. You have such an 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:51.679 interesting story, you know, what would you take from it 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:54.000 to to share with other women who are just thinking 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.160 about entering the military. You know they're at the emfancy 0:23:56.160 --> 0:24:00.400 stages of their process. I definitely think it's an increable 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:07.320 jumping off point for any career. The benefits are amazing. 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:11.000 I would not be able to be in this profession 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:13.959 now and doing the work that I do if I 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:18.720 hadn't been in the military and retired. The paycheck allows 0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:21.760 me to be an academics. Academia is not a job 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:25.720 that pays well, so being able to be an academic 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.359 um is definitely because of my military career and also 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:32.320 my post nine g I bill paid for my undergraduate career, 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:36.320 so that was helpful. And I think if you take 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:40.080 the lessons that we learned, just the very basic lessons, 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:43.800 the soft skills that being on time, learning how to organize, 0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:47.960