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Speaker 1: on March sixteenth for a digital conversation on true crime storytelling.
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Speaker 1: d c l H. Hi. My name is Cassidy Zachary
Speaker 1: and I am April Callahan and we are fashionistorians YEP
Speaker 1: and co hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed
Speaker 1: the History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the
Speaker 1: significance of dress from throughout history and around the world,
Speaker 1: and we are so excited to bring you a brand
Speaker 1: new season celebrated groundbreaking fashion figures and explain the history
Speaker 1: of everything from courses to blue jeans. Dressed the History
Speaker 1: of Fashion is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New
Speaker 1: episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday. We've all felt left out,
Speaker 1: and for people who moved to this country, that feeling
Speaker 1: lasts more than a moment. We can change that learn
Speaker 1: how it. The Longing begins with us dot Org, brought
Speaker 1: to you by the Ad Council. My name's Rain Wilson
Speaker 1: and I played Dwight Kurt Shrewt. Hello, everybody, Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the office. Deep Dive. We're back, baby, Pat's right,
Speaker 1: we are back. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today
Speaker 1: you are going to be listening to the second part
Speaker 1: of my conversation with Rain Wilson. So, just like with Angela,
Speaker 1: I wanted to save this part of Rain's interview for
Speaker 1: our Camera as Character series because Dwight had one of
Speaker 1: the most interesting relationships with the camera on the show.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it was like he was hiding from it, he
Speaker 1: hated it, but at other times the camera was his friend.
Speaker 1: In the scene from Stress Relief where he's lighting the fire,
Speaker 1: he thinks the camera gets what I'm doing right. And
Speaker 1: we also talked about many other important topics, like Rain's
Speaker 1: dynamic with Steve Carrell, whether the office could indeed be
Speaker 1: made today and who in the cast was the most
Speaker 1: likely to get fired? As always, Rain had so many
Speaker 1: insightful things to say. I just love talking to him
Speaker 1: about our show. Though I hate that I'm being so
Speaker 1: nice to him, but you know what, I can't help it.
Speaker 1: I love him, You love him, America loves him. Dwight
Speaker 1: is everyone's favorite. I'm not bitter about that at all.
Speaker 1: I'm a little bitter about that. But without further ado,
Speaker 1: here he is Rain Wilson, Bubble and Squeak. I love it,
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cooking every month.
Speaker 1: Lift over from the NATT before when we talk about
Speaker 1: what was unique about the show the camera as the character.
Speaker 1: To me, what's impressive and what I'm tremendously out of
Speaker 1: in the show is that every shot wasn't about how
Speaker 1: can we cover this person the best, how can we
Speaker 1: get this or even how can we get this joke?
Speaker 1: But is the camera there? Where is it? What story
Speaker 1: is that telling? Because we're supposedly seeing this through a
Speaker 1: documentarian's lens. I mean, your interactions with the camera's elevated
Speaker 1: Dwight an even higher level than it was yeah, So
Speaker 1: there was a constant a negotiation about where the cameras
Speaker 1: should be for a scene, and Greg was very exacting
Speaker 1: about it. Randall Einhorn, one of our chief directors, Matt
Speaker 1: Son one of our chief directors, and cameramen. There was
Speaker 1: this constant dialogue and it was very thorough. Nothing was
Speaker 1: done half assed, you know. It was just kind of like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, we'd rehearse a scene. Maybe the director would
Speaker 1: have it plotted out, but the writer would come in
Speaker 1: and say, well, if the camera was here when he said,
Speaker 1: does that thing and then looks away, we can rack
Speaker 1: focus to the person in the foreground and get their reaction,
Speaker 1: and the other camera can get this other reaction and
Speaker 1: then you know, so it was there was a lot
Speaker 1: of calculation that went on. The use of Venetian blinds
Speaker 1: was extraordinary. How do we shoot through the blinds? Is
Speaker 1: this a spy shot? Is it on this side of
Speaker 1: the blinds? On this side? Are they aware the cameras there?
Speaker 1: And so if you look at the episodes, it's almost
Speaker 1: mathematical about, you know, how can we position the camera
Speaker 1: so it captures seemingly effortlessly captures the greatest number of
Speaker 1: reactions and interactions to bring out as much humanity and
Speaker 1: comedy at the same time. So you know, when you
Speaker 1: would prep an episode, you would you know, have the
Speaker 1: ad there and you'd kind of read through the scene
Speaker 1: and you'd think about where would need to go. And
Speaker 1: you also didn't want to just always repeat. You didn't
Speaker 1: want to just always have like, you know, we'll just
Speaker 1: put the cameras in Michael's office, just shoot over one
Speaker 1: guy's left shoulder and the other guy's right shoulder. And
Speaker 1: you wanted to find new original ways of shooting stuff,
Speaker 1: and it was very precise and sometimes it was a
Speaker 1: real puzzle. One of the challenges I remember having on
Speaker 1: one of the episodes, I can't remember which one it
Speaker 1: might have been. I think it was Classy Christmas was
Speaker 1: that if people walk in and they're having a scene
Speaker 1: and you're shooting them, you have to whip around to
Speaker 1: get reactions on the other people, Whereas if you're on
Speaker 1: the other side and they step in front of the
Speaker 1: camera so the camera has the deep background of the
Speaker 1: rest of the office behind the players in the foreground,
Speaker 1: then you get to follow the action and just rack
Speaker 1: focus past them, past the plant, past the copy machine,
Speaker 1: and get the reactions. It was better to be on
Speaker 1: that side of the axis of shooting because for people
Speaker 1: who don't know, there's a thing called the line when
Speaker 1: you're directing, and it's the axis between the principal players
Speaker 1: and you're either on one side of the line or
Speaker 1: the other side of the line. You can't really play
Speaker 1: on both side of the lines. They just would look
Speaker 1: really jumbled. In the human brain, it's just how vision works.
Speaker 1: So I remember there being a lot of, you know,
Speaker 1: deep conversations like how do we get Steve in further
Speaker 1: so that the camera stays on this side. It was
Speaker 1: very complex. Yeah. One of the other things that I've
Speaker 1: been thinking about is you and I were theater actors, right,
Speaker 1: Steve Angela Oscar were really improv actors, and then you've
Speaker 1: got Craig Robinson and bj who were really stand up guys.
Speaker 1: And I wonder, seems to me that there's something in
Speaker 1: what made our ensemble unique that had to do with that.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I hadn't really thought about that before, but
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. People had all
Speaker 1: of these different backgrounds that kind of suited their characters,
Speaker 1: and I don't know exactly how, but I definitely see
Speaker 1: that all kind of adding into that kind of the
Speaker 1: jumble eye of the ensemble. And also like remember we
Speaker 1: were just post friends, right, this was two thousand and four,
Speaker 1: and everyone was very interesting faces. You know, even like
Speaker 1: John Krasinski, who's handsome, was not traditionally handsome in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways. You know, it's kind of long face
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, but really interesting and odd faces
Speaker 1: all around. And that was pretty groundbreaking for the time.
Speaker 1: You see it more now, but especially for network television
Speaker 1: at that time, it was just unheard of all these
Speaker 1: kind of weirdos. But I think the diversity in our
Speaker 1: acting backgrounds people brought different strengths. You know, what do
Speaker 1: you think made the ensemble so special? You Well, obviously
Speaker 1: I was I was the main part of that. I
Speaker 1: think Greg had a lot of experience. So he had
Speaker 1: written on Seinfeld and Simpsons and created King of the Hill,
Speaker 1: of course, but he had been on a lot of
Speaker 1: other shows, and I think he was very careful to
Speaker 1: make sure that he wasn't casting any divas and that
Speaker 1: everyone was a team player and an ensemble player. So
Speaker 1: I think that one thing that theater and improv gives
Speaker 1: you is a sense of like, it's not the Rain
Speaker 1: Wilson Show or the Steve Carrell Show or whatever. It's
Speaker 1: the It's about the ensemble. It's like how do you
Speaker 1: make other people funnier? How do you play well with others?
Speaker 1: That was another thing he picked people with, also, like
Speaker 1: just really good hearts, Like the people when you look
Speaker 1: back on it, everyone is a really goodhearted person. Now,
Speaker 1: I've worked on TV shows where that is not the case.
Speaker 1: In fact, I remember I forget which director was. It
Speaker 1: was a director later on season five or six, and
Speaker 1: they were like, oh my god, I can't believe how
Speaker 1: much you guys love each other like that. We hug
Speaker 1: each other and high five and in between takes we're
Speaker 1: just laughing and watching videos and goofing off and just
Speaker 1: a really loving environment. And he goes, I just got
Speaker 1: back from directing desk. At Housewives, it's like half the
Speaker 1: cast is not talking to the other half of the cast.
Speaker 1: You have to call people out of trailers at certain
Speaker 1: points in time, but they won't look at each other,
Speaker 1: they won't do the off camera work with the other person.
Speaker 1: It's all this just cattiness and competitiveness and that that
Speaker 1: exists on a lot of different shows you kind of
Speaker 1: you kind of read about it and it's, uh, it's
Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary, and it wasn't there for us, not in
Speaker 1: the slightest no. No. Yeah, So we have this, like,
Speaker 1: we have this collection of characters that are existing within
Speaker 1: this office, and I think when you think about the show,
Speaker 1: that's what you think about, and you forget how much
Speaker 1: change we had, like even from from season three and
Speaker 1: Jim leaving and then Karen Philip Elly and Andy coming
Speaker 1: in and Ed and then Ellie coming in, like we
Speaker 1: had sort of a constant revolving door, although not really
Speaker 1: revolving because not many people left. We just got bigger.
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's something interesting to me about the
Speaker 1: energy that was created by Greg constantly changing up and
Speaker 1: adding cast members, making us go on location, and later
Speaker 1: seasons we had Clark Duke and Jake Lacy. Yeah exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that was really smart. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I think Rashida and Ed Helms, like two of the
Speaker 1: greatest comedy actors of all time coming in was a
Speaker 1: really needed breath of fresh air in that third season
Speaker 1: and really helped us a lot. And I think Ellie Kemper,
Speaker 1: who has proven herself to be one of the great
Speaker 1: comedians television personalities. Bringing her in in season five or
Speaker 1: six or whenever it was really helped the show as well,
Speaker 1: so he was very adept about that, as he is
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Speaker 1: need everything you've got fast Waiting on Reparations. We'd beat
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Speaker 1: Listen to Waiting on rep Rations on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I consider
Speaker 1: you and Steve to be one of, if not the
Speaker 1: greatest comedy duos in the history of television. Wow, that's
Speaker 1: so sweet of you, Brian, thank you shut up. I'm serious,
Speaker 1: I'm serious, that is very sweet of you. I do.
Speaker 1: I just kind of want to do a little deep
Speaker 1: dive into you and he working. How much did you
Speaker 1: talk about those scenes before you were in the room shooting.
Speaker 1: We never talked about scenes, never ever, So you talk
Speaker 1: about the various skill sets that we brought to the
Speaker 1: equation as actors. So Steve was in Second City. He
Speaker 1: was kind of infamously great in Second City. He wrote
Speaker 1: a lot of their favorite best sketches, he toured with them,
Speaker 1: You'd done the Dana Carvey Show, and he was just
Speaker 1: really well known and super highly respected and and truly,
Speaker 1: like I've worked with a lot of amazing actors over
Speaker 1: the years before The Office and since the Office, I've
Speaker 1: never worked with anyone like him before. He can improvise
Speaker 1: like it's it's almost a crime to call it improvisation
Speaker 1: because he can just be and speak as a character
Speaker 1: and it's both funny and pathetic and sad and moving
Speaker 1: at the same time. And it was just a true
Speaker 1: honor and marvel to like watch him work and for me,
Speaker 1: like again, I improvised pretty well. It's not really my bag.
Speaker 1: My bag is like creating memorable characters. That's how I
Speaker 1: think of myself as an Actor's like when I die
Speaker 1: and they show the little thing and the Emmy's the
Speaker 1: Academy Awards. I want people to go like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: he created a lot of really interesting, memorable characters. But
Speaker 1: it was just about watching Steve go. So I thought
Speaker 1: of us as like, sorr, wow, these guys are the
Speaker 1: loudest podcast engineers I've ever heard in my life. I'm
Speaker 1: just kidding here. It's okay, I'll show you how to
Speaker 1: turn the volume down on the computer. Though, So I
Speaker 1: thought of us as like the vision that I had
Speaker 1: was like the image that I had is like we're
Speaker 1: just these different musicians. Like Steve is like this, he's
Speaker 1: a violin player, or he's the alto sacks or something.
Speaker 1: It's like it's quick, it's mercurial, it's changing, and Dwight
Speaker 1: is kind of like a little more of the base.
Speaker 1: And also I thought part of Dwight's job, part of
Speaker 1: my job as an actor, is just to keep him
Speaker 1: off balance just a little bit. So I would always
Speaker 1: vary my timings and sometimes just try and fun with him,
Speaker 1: and I'll just all of a sudden, say, I could
Speaker 1: really go for some spaghetti right about now, and he
Speaker 1: would just never miss a beat. He would spin it
Speaker 1: into pure gold. So it was it was really a
Speaker 1: miraculous thing to watch. But I think that when a
Speaker 1: comedy duo is in sync there they know kind of
Speaker 1: what instruments they're playing. And Dwight, I think sometimes I
Speaker 1: would try and be the violin, but Dwight was never
Speaker 1: That's not his speed, it's not his rhythm. He doesn't
Speaker 1: work in the same way. And it was also really
Speaker 1: great to just know, like, this is what Steve does.
Speaker 1: He does it better than anyone else, like on the planet,
Speaker 1: and I don't need to try and do that. I'll
Speaker 1: do my thing. My thing is to play kind of
Speaker 1: the big bass playing weirdo in the corner, you know,
Speaker 1: in opposition to that. Yeah, well that was a thing
Speaker 1: that always amazed me, which was he would come in,
Speaker 1: you know, like in the conference room scenes. These are sides,
Speaker 1: by the way, these are fake sides, and he would
Speaker 1: be like, you know, kind of like flipping through and
Speaker 1: like okay, and I'm gonna move here, and we would
Speaker 1: rehearse for like an eight page scene for about six
Speaker 1: minutes and they'd be like, okay, everybody go get dressed
Speaker 1: and whatever, and then he would put on his suit
Speaker 1: and finish getting his makeup on, and he would walk
Speaker 1: back in and it was like boom. He was like,
Speaker 1: fully there, yeah, yeah. But that's why I wondered if
Speaker 1: you and he ever talked through any more of those things.
Speaker 1: That was one of the things with Steve that I
Speaker 1: kind of saw really quick because I wanted to just
Speaker 1: be respectful to his process and whatnot, Like he did
Speaker 1: not want to work stuff out, he did not want
Speaker 1: to rehearse, he didn't want to like talk about it
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. I mean he would if there
Speaker 1: was there needed to be a change in the writing,
Speaker 1: he would bring in Greg or Paul or Gin or
Speaker 1: whomever and talk about, like, could we change this. I
Speaker 1: don't feel like he would say this and he needs
Speaker 1: to say something more like that. But as far as
Speaker 1: the acting, it's like it's off, boom starting gun, the
Speaker 1: horses are off and you just go and worked really well. Right.
Speaker 1: It occurred to me one of the things that make
Speaker 1: made you and Steve so unique goes to not to
Speaker 1: dismiss this at all. You and John were hilarious together,
Speaker 1: but you were a much more classical duo. He was
Speaker 1: the straight man to you, whereas with you and Steve,
Speaker 1: you both were crazy idiots, right and still somehow it
Speaker 1: was made believable and real and hilariously funny without being
Speaker 1: a competition. It was really like an orchestra. Like you said, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is where we could talk shop a little bit,
Speaker 1: because I love the history of clown and of clowning.
Speaker 1: And it really started with the comedies of the ancient Greeks,
Speaker 1: you know, like Aristophanes the Frogs and some of those plays.
Speaker 1: What's the one where they all have boners they withhold
Speaker 1: sex from the man until the men stopped the war.
Speaker 1: Anyone blanking on the name anyway, So it all starts
Speaker 1: back then, and then swiftly moves to Comedia dell arte,
Speaker 1: which sprang out of you know, Roman theater that had
Speaker 1: these comic tropes and would travel all over Europe. And
Speaker 1: they always had the dopey clown like Kevin, they had
Speaker 1: like the weird, intense clown like Dwight. There were these tropes,
Speaker 1: and basically all of comedy in the Western world I
Speaker 1: think is based off of those tropes from comedian to Larte.
Speaker 1: They influenced obviously Moliere and then Shakespeare, Vaudeville and clown
Speaker 1: characters like that, then moved into you know, early radio
Speaker 1: and TV. You know, think about the Honeymooners and then
Speaker 1: the early sitcoms and Dick Van Dyke and Maritt Tyler
Speaker 1: Moore and then on into the later sitcoms, and this
Speaker 1: constantly evolving process of these archetypal kind of forms that
Speaker 1: I really view like Michael and Dwight, and Dwight and
Speaker 1: Jim as like two comic duos, as being like inheritors
Speaker 1: of the history of comedy. I don't know exactly how
Speaker 1: they fit in, certainly, you know, Jim was like the
Speaker 1: young lover, although he had that great dead pan and
Speaker 1: got more laughs than anyone else could have gotten in
Speaker 1: that role with this, you know, his looks to the
Speaker 1: camera and his long sufferingness and quick wittedness. But it's
Speaker 1: the it's the essence of clown. You studied clown as well,
Speaker 1: and physical theater and stuff like that. You and I
Speaker 1: know this might sound pretentious as hell to people, but
Speaker 1: I don't care fuck them. How do you how do
Speaker 1: you feel like it played into the clowns and the
Speaker 1: physical comedy of the Office. Absolutely. I mean I think
Speaker 1: primarily with Kevin and Dwight and Michael, but no, even Angela,
Speaker 1: Andy Bernard, those characters. Absolutely we all might have had
Speaker 1: clown noses on when you think about it, totally, you
Speaker 1: could have put clown noses on all of the different characters.
Speaker 1: And even though it was a documentary and gritty and
Speaker 1: real and felt like an office, like it was really
Speaker 1: happening documentary style. And that was one of the things
Speaker 1: that I said to Greg early on into the writer's room,
Speaker 1: like I really love physical comedy, and I would really
Speaker 1: I think that Dwight really soars when he's doing physical comedy.
Speaker 1: I really want you to consider writing as much physical
Speaker 1: comedy for me as possible. And I do think that
Speaker 1: that's when you think of the Office, you think of
Speaker 1: like documentary uber real bad lighting, reactions, looking at the
Speaker 1: camera and stuff like that. But you could do a
Speaker 1: compilation episode of the Office of like the physical comedy bits,
Speaker 1: you know, the fire episode and Dwight with Jan's baby
Speaker 1: carriage or parkour and all of this stuff, like even
Speaker 1: you having to give me a massage. Do you remember
Speaker 1: you climbing up on the wall. Yeah, I was on
Speaker 1: were on the filing cabinet behind you as I was
Speaker 1: doing that. So there's a really a strong constant vein.
Speaker 1: Like every episode, I would say I had some at
Speaker 1: least one or two big bits of physical comedy and
Speaker 1: involving pain and getting hit and doors slammed in faces
Speaker 1: and whatnot, and that I don't think that gets quite
Speaker 1: enough props or attention from people. Well, and and even
Speaker 1: pretending to be a different character than you are, right,
Speaker 1: you a number of characters, and Jim and me, and
Speaker 1: when Jim dresses as Dwight and says Bears beats Battlestar Galactica,
Speaker 1: and people always say, I want you to write Bears
Speaker 1: beats Battlestar Galactica or if I'm signing a picture or
Speaker 1: something like that, or say it or something like that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, Dwight actually never said that in two hundred episodes.
Speaker 1: Dwight never said Bears beats Battlestar Galactica. That was Jim
Speaker 1: as Dwight saying that. I don't say that. I'm not
Speaker 1: a persnicketty asshole going Waitney said it. But people should
Speaker 1: realize that Dwight never actually said that. Wow. I would
Speaker 1: never have gotten that. I would I blew your mind.
Speaker 1: I know, I never would have gotten that. Yeah. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you have this comedy duo with Steve. When did
Speaker 1: you find out he was leaving? I knew that Steve
Speaker 1: was going to get out of there as soon as
Speaker 1: he possibly could because he had all of these movies
Speaker 1: that were wanting to pay him ten and fifteen million
Speaker 1: dollars a pop to go do. So of course he
Speaker 1: would like wow. You know. So did you have reservations
Speaker 1: about the show existing beyond him? Yeah? I had. I
Speaker 1: had great reservations about the show existing without Steve. You know,
Speaker 1: did I think we were going to bomb and fail
Speaker 1: without Steve? No? Were we going to be hurt by
Speaker 1: losing one of the greatest comedic actors of all time
Speaker 1: in the lead character? Of course we were. No one
Speaker 1: thought otherwise. At the same time, we had a pretty
Speaker 1: damn great ensemble. You know, Ed Helms at the time
Speaker 1: was lead in Hangover, which was the biggest comedy ever made,
Speaker 1: and we had him and he. You know, I didn't
Speaker 1: think we needed like a Robert California or Kathy Bates
Speaker 1: or you know a lot of other like big names
Speaker 1: to bring in At that point, I think we had
Speaker 1: the ensemble. I wish the creators and I know they
Speaker 1: were doing a lot of battling with NBC at the
Speaker 1: time because we were starting to slip in our ratings
Speaker 1: even before Steve left. It's not like we were just
Speaker 1: on our ratings bonanza all the way through Steve and
Speaker 1: then Steve left and we were declined. We were in
Speaker 1: decline for a good year or two with Steve there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I knew it was gonna I knew it
Speaker 1: was going to hurt us, and I knew it was
Speaker 1: also time for you know, all of us to step
Speaker 1: up in the ensemble and carry more weight of anyone
Speaker 1: on set. Who would be the most likely to be
Speaker 1: fired for an HR violation? Oh? Ouch, boy? Would I
Speaker 1: first wanted to Joe can say, Oh, that would be me,
Speaker 1: because I told a lot of inappropriate jokes. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, oh boy, You've got me stumped on
Speaker 1: this one. At the same time, for some reason, I'm
Speaker 1: going to Creed because I would tell inappropriate jokes, but
Speaker 1: people could always tell like, oh, that's Rain telling a
Speaker 1: really inappropriate joke. But at the same time, like Creed
Speaker 1: could tell one and I imagine that certain people would
Speaker 1: kind of go, oh, he means it. He's actually going
Speaker 1: to chop up my body and put me in the
Speaker 1: trunk of his car or something like that. Or so
Speaker 1: I would say a tie between me and Creed maybe yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I mean, would you go with that? I will now
Speaker 1: that you say it. It was all about you. I
Speaker 1: mean you would say things that I mean, my language
Speaker 1: can be horrendously bad. I've kept it together somewhat here,
Speaker 1: but you, somehow would put combinations of vulgar words together
Speaker 1: in a way that even made me uncomfortable and looking
Speaker 1: around like who heard that? And are we in trouble?
Speaker 1: Oh my, you know, we made the show before all
Speaker 1: of this stuff, the me too and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I hope I was never really I certainly was never
Speaker 1: demeaning to anybody or cruel to anyone, or you know,
Speaker 1: coming on to women in some weird ways. It was
Speaker 1: just like inappropriate jokes. But I heard about some other
Speaker 1: shows where people like off camera were like dropping their
Speaker 1: pants and showing their genitals to the person who's on
Speaker 1: the camera, and that would happen all the time, and
Speaker 1: everyone thought, oh, this is hysterical, you know, like all
Speaker 1: the quote unquote hysterical high jinks that would happen. That
Speaker 1: was really just straight up harassment. That's what I always
Speaker 1: imagine people are wanting us to say about the pranks. Yeah, like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, no, I would. I would moon rain all
Speaker 1: the time, yeah, off camera, And that was no. We
Speaker 1: never did anything like that, Steve. And I'm going to
Speaker 1: talk to him about this. But Steve, he's been quoted
Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's been paraphrased or whatever,
Speaker 1: but there's something out there where he has said that
Speaker 1: The Office could not exist today because of the culture
Speaker 1: of political correctness that exists in television. Do you agree
Speaker 1: with that? Yeah, I think The Office would be a
Speaker 1: very different show. And I think that having a just
Speaker 1: colossally inappropriate boss who's making a lot of sexual jokes
Speaker 1: and hinu windows and crossing lines and boundaries, we were
Speaker 1: sending up kind of a problem that was out there,
Speaker 1: an issue that was out there. We were shining light
Speaker 1: on it and poking at it. That's what she said,
Speaker 1: And I do think it would be very problematic in
Speaker 1: this day and age. How do you navigate that, even
Speaker 1: if the guy is supposed to be an asshole? How
Speaker 1: do you navigate him saying just sexist stuff and racist
Speaker 1: stuff and it's coming out of his mouth and he's
Speaker 1: just not aware, you know, it would have I agree
Speaker 1: with Steve, I don't think you could do it. I
Speaker 1: disagree with both of you. I can't. It makes no
Speaker 1: sense to me. He took off his glasses, he's getting
Speaker 1: in sense. It makes no no, no. But see, I
Speaker 1: just keep thinking he's been paraphrased incorrectly. But then now
Speaker 1: you just endorsed it. How can what is now the
Speaker 1: most watch show and television You're telling me an executive
Speaker 1: is going to turn that down the potential for that down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But this is what I'm saying is that there would
Speaker 1: be a backlash, for instance, Diversity Day if you had
Speaker 1: a show right now that was starting out, you know,
Speaker 1: not The not The Office, that's a big hit show.
Speaker 1: If there was a show that was starting out and
Speaker 1: had a Diversity Day episode and people were saying, like,
Speaker 1: try make Googi googy to an Indian person, and if
Speaker 1: they were saying, I can't drive, are you Asian? Or
Speaker 1: are you a woman? And like you were saying rosta man,
Speaker 1: I'm doing like like and people were doing that stuff
Speaker 1: like there would be a lot of angry people on
Speaker 1: social media saying like, this is inappropriate, this is it's
Speaker 1: having a laugh at these stereotype. Yes, it's sending them up,
Speaker 1: but we need to get out of this and we
Speaker 1: cannot continue to participate, and there would be a huge
Speaker 1: backlash against it. So I'm not saying like, could you
Speaker 1: do The Office the Office now? But a show like
Speaker 1: The Office could never take off right now because if
Speaker 1: it tried to play in the world of what's inappropriate,
Speaker 1: people just don't have a sense of humor about it.
Speaker 1: And partially for good reason and an understandable reason, and
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Speaker 1: a topic not enough people know about, and we're here
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Speaker 1: podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode
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Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered how a true crime podcast like
Speaker 1: Lost Tales gets made? How he unearth secrets and tease
Speaker 1: out the truth and deal with complicated characters while tackling
Speaker 1: sensitive subjects like violence, trauma, and deception. Now's your chance
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Speaker 1: If you've ever wondered what it's like to make a
Speaker 1: true crime podcast like deep Cover, Well, now's your chance
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Speaker 1: sixteenth for a digital conversation on true crime storytelling. We'll
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Speaker 1: Com slash d c l H. Will you play the
Speaker 1: the PAM thing? I thought it was weird when you
Speaker 1: picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
Speaker 1: I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
Speaker 1: a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point?
Speaker 1: So to me, that is what Greg says that it
Speaker 1: was all about. Is that what you think it was
Speaker 1: all about? Yeah, the beauty of ordinary things. I'm going
Speaker 1: to sound pretentious again and I'm going to take us
Speaker 1: back to the theater. But really, my favorite theater artist
Speaker 1: of all time was Anton Chekhov, the playwright, and Chekhov
Speaker 1: was one of the first, if not the first, that
Speaker 1: really saw the beauty and ordinary things and ordinary people
Speaker 1: and those when you define what a Chekovan moment is,
Speaker 1: it's a profound moment that's very simple, where hearts are
Speaker 1: broken over a teacup being passed around or what's not said,
Speaker 1: or a longing and has some kind of physical manifestation.
Speaker 1: So I think at its best, I think the office
Speaker 1: was cove in in that sense where there was a
Speaker 1: beauty found in ordinary things. And Chekhov's work has suffused
Speaker 1: so much of what's happened in theater or TV and
Speaker 1: film for the last one hundred and twenty years. You know,
Speaker 1: when you think about dramedy, like the word dramedy half drama,
Speaker 1: half comedy, like he was the first. You know, you
Speaker 1: might argue that some of Shakespeare's romance plays kind of
Speaker 1: fit in that spectrum, they really didn't. He was really
Speaker 1: the first that was like, I don't know whether to
Speaker 1: laugh or cry, And now I'm going to laugh a
Speaker 1: little bit, and I'm gonna cry a little bit, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna laugh and cry a little bit, and it's
Speaker 1: just going to ride that line between buffoonery and heartbreak.
Speaker 1: And I think Greg and the writing staff and the
Speaker 1: cast and directors really knew how to how to milk that.
Speaker 1: You know. The example I always give is one of
Speaker 1: my favorite moments was directed by Paul Lieberstein, who I
Speaker 1: think is an amazing director and a great writer, and
Speaker 1: who played Toby. Obviously. I think it was in the
Speaker 1: episode of Money and it's Dwight and Jim in the stairwell.
Speaker 1: Dwight is heartbroken over Angela and Jim gives him some
Speaker 1: advice and I forget what it was even, but Jim
Speaker 1: gives Dwight some really heartfelt advice You'll get over it,
Speaker 1: or you go tell her you lover or something like that,
Speaker 1: something about Angela. And then Dwight has got his head
Speaker 1: down in his hands and Jim slips away, and it's
Speaker 1: the spy shot of the camera down the stairs, and
Speaker 1: then Dwight reaches out with his left arm as if
Speaker 1: he would have put his arm around Jim and like
Speaker 1: hugged and it would have been like their first hug ever.
Speaker 1: And Jim's not there, and he kind of it looks
Speaker 1: around and it's this awkward moment. But I always think like,
Speaker 1: if Jim hadn't left, and if Dwight had just put
Speaker 1: his arm around Jim, like they might have bonded in
Speaker 1: a way that wouldn't have allowed the show to go
Speaker 1: on because they wouldn't have been the nemesis to each other.
Speaker 1: They would have like connected too deeply, and you can't
Speaker 1: have that on the show. You want to have them
Speaker 1: episode after episode after episode not connecting. But to me,
Speaker 1: it's like that little moment like defined what the office was.
Speaker 1: It had absurdity to it, reality to it. At the
Speaker 1: same time, it was based in heartbreak, and then it
Speaker 1: twisted into something kind of peculiar and odd and awkward.
Speaker 1: That's really smart. No, I mean you're pretty smart. I'm
Speaker 1: smart guying. You know, you're obviously you started soul Pancake
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. You're a very spiritual person. That's
Speaker 1: important to you. Yeah, what ortual person who tells really
Speaker 1: inappropriate jokes? Are you still tell the worst? The worst?
Speaker 1: I don't. Do you feel like there was a good
Speaker 1: that came from the show? Yeah? So, you know, my
Speaker 1: my spiritual life and that world is, like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: is important to me, you know, prayer and met itation
Speaker 1: and thinking about life's big questions and our purpose here
Speaker 1: and how we can be of service to one another,
Speaker 1: how I can make myself a better person. All of
Speaker 1: these big spiritual questions occupy some time and space with me.
Speaker 1: So I truly believe that at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: we weren't kind of trying to do this. But I
Speaker 1: do believe that The Office was a spiritual show. You know,
Speaker 1: anytime I'm kind of recognized, people will say thank you
Speaker 1: for the show. It meant so much to me my
Speaker 1: parents were getting a divorce, or my little brother had cancer,
Speaker 1: and we would watch it together and we would cry.
Speaker 1: It got me through some of the hardest times. I
Speaker 1: mean every day, like people write into my Facebook like
Speaker 1: it got me through such hard times. I was going
Speaker 1: through depression, I was anxiety and disease issues, whatever, mental
Speaker 1: health issues, and the Office got me through that. And
Speaker 1: I think that the reason that The Office has lasted
Speaker 1: the way it has is it because all great television
Speaker 1: is unlikely families, and it's the most unlikely family, and
Speaker 1: you love to be with that family. There's something really
Speaker 1: soothing about showing up hearing that theme song. You're in
Speaker 1: that office with these characters that you love. You want
Speaker 1: to cohabitate with them, you want to work in the
Speaker 1: office with them. I've talked to so many young people
Speaker 1: that have said, I want to work in an office
Speaker 1: just like in dunder Mifflin. They're like thinking somehow that
Speaker 1: out in the workaday world, that it's going to be
Speaker 1: even remotely like the office the most wrongheaded thing known
Speaker 1: to man. But yeah, I think we made something that
Speaker 1: ultimately made people laugh, got their minds off their problems,
Speaker 1: that brought a lot of like comedy and warmth and
Speaker 1: heart and connection, and that's really what people need now,
Speaker 1: and so they're they're watching the show. It's not a
Speaker 1: cynical show at the end of the day. It's people
Speaker 1: that do love each other, as weird as it is,
Speaker 1: and it's been a positive worse in the world. I
Speaker 1: didn't doubt that when we're making it, but I didn't
Speaker 1: even really think about that when we're making it. But
Speaker 1: the heart of the show, the heart of Greg Daniels,
Speaker 1: the heart of all the actors and the writers, kind
Speaker 1: of has lasted. Yeah, what are you the most thankful
Speaker 1: for the house that the Office bought me? Now? No,
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, but that's fair. Oh yeah, no, I yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I had been a struggling actor. You know, I got
Speaker 1: out of acting school eighty nine, ninety something like that.
Speaker 1: So here I am in two thousand and four starting
Speaker 1: to do the Office. So fourteen years of struggling to
Speaker 1: kind of pay the rent, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you know, I had an actual career. It opened a
Speaker 1: lot of doors for me. I got to do some
Speaker 1: cool movie stuff and work with a lot of cool
Speaker 1: people and be involved in some cool enterprises because of it,
Speaker 1: and I'm super grateful for that. But yeah, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: most grateful for the fact that we made a gift
Speaker 1: for audiences that I think it'll be around for a
Speaker 1: long time. Why why is that? Though? I mean, we've
Speaker 1: talked about all of these elements that went into creating
Speaker 1: the show and why we think it's special and what
Speaker 1: makes it unique and that, Well, why now are eleven
Speaker 1: twelve year old fourteen year old kids watching this show
Speaker 1: over something else? Well, there's so many reasons. We've been
Speaker 1: over a lot of them. Sure, it's an unlikely family
Speaker 1: that is formed. They're relatable characters, you want to hang
Speaker 1: out with them. But I also think it's and Greg
Speaker 1: always said, like, it's ninety percent funny, but ten percent
Speaker 1: kind of truthful in moving And if you stay on that,
Speaker 1: you don't want to go more than ten percent because
Speaker 1: then it starts to get sentimental and modeling. But it
Speaker 1: just has that ten percent per episode of reality, of truth,
Speaker 1: of real connection that grounds the show, that gives it
Speaker 1: a lot of heart. But also, like the style of
Speaker 1: the comedy, it never tells you when to laugh or
Speaker 1: that you have to laugh. There's no laugh track. You
Speaker 1: can choose to laugh at something or not. You know,
Speaker 1: someone can look at the camera, some people can find
Speaker 1: it hysterical, some people won't. Maybe the third time you
Speaker 1: watch it, you do find it hysterical, and you hadn't
Speaker 1: the previous time. So you're finding a lot of those details.
Speaker 1: We talked about the detail that went into positioning the
Speaker 1: cameras and how you're going to shoot stuff and get
Speaker 1: reaction shots, and so I also think there's a great
Speaker 1: amount of detail in there. So it stands up on
Speaker 1: repeated watchings where a lot of other shows may not
Speaker 1: because the jokes are kind of hit a little harder.
Speaker 1: There's so many reasons, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: I have to think it's just the heart. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think people just loved those characters and they just
Speaker 1: feel like they're a de facto family. Okay, there's been
Speaker 1: fifteen years since we shot the pilot who shot the violot.
Speaker 1: This is about Rain. Okay, Rain Wilson, here we go.
Speaker 1: Do you consider your old co workers family or friends? Remember, Oh,
Speaker 1: you can choose your friends, but now your family. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's a profound question. You found a life's big question
Speaker 1: packed into packed into the office. God, that's such such
Speaker 1: a good I don't know. I guess I would answer
Speaker 1: it like Michael Scott, and he would say, as the
Speaker 1: Office cast, my family is the Office Cast, my friends.
Speaker 1: I think they're my family. You're a jackass. You're a jackass.
Speaker 1: Do you want me to be more? Sincerely? Love? No?
Speaker 1: I love no? Are you kidding? I love that? So
Speaker 1: that's good, jackass. Wait, let me let me ask you
Speaker 1: one more thing. So, in doing research for this podcast,
Speaker 1: I found out that fifty two point one billion billion
Speaker 1: minutes we're streamed in twenty eighteen alone. Dear lord, I
Speaker 1: guess this is average lifespan over a hundred thousand people
Speaker 1: watching it for their entire life. What, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's nuts. People just need to get a life. I mean,
Speaker 1: it wasn't listening person listeners. I love you all, thank
Speaker 1: you for watching the Office. But there's so much use
Speaker 1: to do. Read a fucking book people, written by Rain Wilson. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I actually I have written too. So there's a couple
Speaker 1: I have. Jenna has written a book, and bj has
Speaker 1: two read only books by the Office Cast. Listen to
Speaker 1: this podcast and read books by people from the Office,
Speaker 1: from the and by our merchandise. All right, Rain, I
Speaker 1: love you. I love you, Brian Baumgartner, and I've missed
Speaker 1: you so much. I hardly ever see you. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me on this show. This is P promises to
Speaker 1: be really exciting and cool. I'm so excited for this thing.
Speaker 1: You started to sound like you were being sarcastic, and
Speaker 1: then you and then you turn genuine halfway through. Very,
Speaker 1: I'm very that's kind of my thing. Is like, am
Speaker 1: I sarcastic? Am I being a dick? Or am I
Speaker 1: being genuine? Kind of writing that line and yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: suck my balls, Okay, bye, all right, guys. That is it,
Speaker 1: mister Rain Wilson. I hope that you had as much
Speaker 1: fun listening to that, to that conversation as I had
Speaker 1: having it. I don't know if that's not quite right,
Speaker 1: but whatever, I enjoyed that so much. Huge thanks to
Speaker 1: Rain for joining me and talking to me, and bigger
Speaker 1: forget Rain, bigger thanks to you for listening. I will
Speaker 1: be back next week with more of the goods. We're
Speaker 1: gonna go deeper, We're gonna go bigger, We're gonna go
Speaker 1: dive here. I don't know we know, I don't know numbers.
Speaker 1: I don't know words either, Apparently, but we'll see you
Speaker 1: next week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted an executive
Speaker 1: produced by me Brian Baumgartner alongside our executive producer Lang Lee.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, Our associate producer is
Speaker 1: Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My
Speaker 1: main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme
Speaker 1: song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton,
Speaker 1: and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski. Conquer your
Speaker 1: New Year's resolutions with the Before Breakfast podcast. In each
Speaker 1: bite size daily episode, you'll learn how to make the
Speaker 1: most of your time with practical tools to help you
Speaker 1: feel less busy and get more done. Listen to Before
Speaker 1: Breakfast on the iHeartRadio app four wherever you get your podcasts.
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