1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: It's time for a Vault episode. This originally aired July 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: seen and this is our episode on the biophilia hypothesis. Yeah, 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: this is ah. This was Edward O. Wilson's hypothesis about 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: about life and how we think about life, and it's 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: it's a very I think, uplifting idea. Granted, we you know, 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: we talked about some of the pros and cons of 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: the hypothesis in this episode, but I think it's a 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: cool thing to take with us here in our first 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Vault episode of the new year. Yeah, I think we 12 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: talked about some potential limitations of it as an idea, 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: but at the same time, it's hard to resist EO. 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: Wilson's infectious love of all things living and squirming and breathing. 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, So let's go ahead and dive right in. 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuffworks 17 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And Robert. 19 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: Not too long ago we were talking about ticks, about 20 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: how it turns out you can get a tick on 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: your eyeball sucking the juice from within straight through the conjunctiva. 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: It turns out you can get all kinds of acquired 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: diseases from ticks, like the acquired meat allergy syndrome, or 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: the of course lime disease. We all know about all 25 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: these other diseases. Of course, the woods are full of 26 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: not just small animals that can hurt you, but in fact, 27 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: if you want to go up to the Northwest or 28 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: somewhere like that, there might be bears that could be 29 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: a threat to you. And yet people want to go 30 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: to the woods. Well they're lovely, dark and deep, that's 31 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: the thing. I mean. I like to go to the woods. 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: And yet there's nothing in the woods that materially benefits me. 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: There's no food there, there's no like mating opportunity there. 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: And it's kind of an odd thing to say, but 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's no in a biological sense of the word, 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: nothing there for me really except an experience. And yet 37 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: I seek that experience. I love going hiking in the woods. Yeah, 38 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: I find the same situation with with my family. We 39 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: go out in these these little hikes, you know, in 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: the Atlanta area, And yeah, we're not We're not foraging 41 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: for berries or mushrooms or or hunting small prey. We're 42 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: just going out there and kind of breathing air, getting 43 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: a little exercise. And um, yeah, I mean you can. 44 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: You could break it down into those tangibles and say, well, 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: I'm getting some fresh air, I'm getting some exercise, I'm 46 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm occupying myself for the morning, I'm getting 47 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: away from my phone or something like this. But be 48 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: happen in terms of these like evolved needs, these basic 49 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: biological needs, they're not they're not necessarily being fulfilled. Yeah, 50 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: the woods, for some reason, seem to give you pleasure. 51 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: It's a thing you're seeking out, even though there's not 52 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: a real direct that. There might be indirect explanations, but 53 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: there's not a really direct explanation for why your body 54 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: would be sending you there. Here's another question, why do 55 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: we like pets? Oh yeah, I mean this is a question. 56 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: My wife and I asked a lot about our cat 57 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: because she's kind of a nightmare. But we so we 58 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: always have the discussions where like parasites. Yeah, there, she's 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: living in our house, eating our food. Uh, and what 60 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: does she give back? Like, she's not she's not keeping 61 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: mice out of our our grain or anything. She's just 62 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: laying around and frequently attacking my feet and sometimes barfing 63 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: on the floor. But then but we still love her 64 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: for some reason. She's still enriches our lives somehow. Our dog, 65 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: Charlie is an absolute parasite. He sometimes can be so annoying, 66 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: but we love this dog. This dog. He brings me 67 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: so much pleasure. I'm so happy to have this dog, 68 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: even when he's barking at me to take him on 69 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: a walk while I'm trying to work on something, or 70 00:03:58,080 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: or just eating a bunch of food that we have 71 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: to pay for. I mean, from a strict material point 72 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: of view, there's not really a reason to want to 73 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: have this thing in my house except that I love him. Yeah. 74 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: And you know, and I bet a lot of people 75 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: out there right now are thinking, well, I'm not a 76 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: dog person, I'm not a cat person. I don't like 77 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: to go into the woods. I would I would invite 78 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: you to expand these definitions because I feel like there 79 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: are certainly individuals out there who really don't want to 80 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: go into the you know, the north Georgia wilderness. But 81 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: they might be very attracted to, say, you know, the 82 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: desert environments of Arizona, or to other national parks, or 83 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: to the beach or you know, or to tropical islands 84 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: like some. So if your local outdoor environment doesn't call you, 85 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: if specific outdoor environments don't don't call to you, then 86 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: there have to be there are probably other natural world 87 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: environments that that do ring your bell. I got one 88 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: more for you, Robert. Why do people plant flowers in 89 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: their backyard? Yeah? I mean what maybe maybe you could say, Okay, 90 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: planning flowers in the front yard could be some kind 91 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: kind of social thing where you're trying to demonstrate your 92 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, wealth and leisure time or something like that. 93 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: People plant flowers in their backyard people nobody can see 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: them except you. And so again is that there There 95 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: appears to they're getting some kind of pleasure from having 96 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: these plants that are growing, that they're taking care of. 97 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: And the plants don't provide food, they don't provide any 98 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: material benefit except that you look at them and it 99 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: makes you feel good unless you're growing edible flowers. Well, 100 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: you know, but wait, is that a thing? I thought 101 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: edible flowers. You can buy them at heallefits. You can 102 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: seriously get a whole container of edible flowers for like, 103 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: you know, eighteen bucks or something. Wait, people eat squash 104 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: blossom stuff, true squash blossom. But yeah, a lot of 105 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: people that do grow flowers. You're just growing to look 106 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: at them or to appreciate, say the butterflies that are 107 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: attracted and by them, the or the various pollinating insects. Yeah. 108 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: So we have all these weird relationships with life forms 109 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: and natural landscapes, with pet animals, with vegetation. And if 110 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,119 Speaker 1: not a dog or a cat, you think of fish, think, oh, yeah, 111 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: you know snakes, reptiles, You have the reptiles, whatever your 112 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: fancy is, even a even a weird pet like a 113 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: scorpion or a tarantula. And uh and you know, I'm 114 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: not calling you a weirdo if you have those, but 115 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: you're probably into the weirdness of it. If you do 116 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: own a pet scorpion, a tarantula. What about if you 117 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: own pet ticks, well, then you're probably what a a 118 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: A a partially mythological Eastern warlord. Right. As a call 119 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: back to our Ticks episode, that would be great to 120 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: have a pit of ticks in your house for when, 121 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, just to threaten the children when they're being 122 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: too unruly, or you just have them as pets, and 123 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,119 Speaker 1: people are like, whoa, you have a pit full of ticks. 124 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: That's horrible, And you're like, no, I don't. I don't 125 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: feed anybody to the ticks. I just keep them around. 126 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: I love to watch these little guys crawl around. So 127 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: we're presented with a question here, and the human seek 128 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: out all kinds of activities and get pleasure from all 129 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: kinds of activities that don't appear to have any direct 130 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: material benefit, yet we we just like them. And so 131 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: one reason for this could be that it's some kind 132 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: of cultural thing that we, you know, we grow up 133 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: being taught to like walking in the woods or to 134 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: like looking at flowers, and that's possible answer. But also 135 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: many of these things seem very universal, like across different cultures, 136 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: people have some kind of companion animal relationship, or they 137 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: enjoy certain natural landscapes, they enjoy being surrounded by certain 138 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: types of plants, and so another way of looking at this, 139 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: apart from just cultural learning, could be that there's some 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: kind of biological instinct that connects us to other forms 141 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: of life, even forms of life that aren't directly benefiting 142 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: us by say, providing food or providing shelter or something 143 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: like that. And this brings us to the topic of 144 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: today's episode, which is a hypothesis that's been around in 145 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: biology and evolutionary psychology for a few decades now, known 146 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: as the biophilia hypothesis, and this is mainly attributed to 147 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: the work that there have been multiple people working in 148 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: this field now, but it's mainly attributed to the work 149 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: of the American biologist Edward O. Wilson also known as EO. Wilson. Now, Robert, 150 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: you recently went to like the E. O. Wilson Center. 151 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: Is this a place uh from his hometown? Um, it's 152 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: It's definitely down from his stomping grounds because Edward O. 153 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: Wilson is it was Alabama, born in the nineteen nine 154 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: and he grew up in various Florida and Alabama towns, 155 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: so this is very much in his his stomping grounds. 156 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: The Edward Wilson Center is in Freeport, Florida, and um 157 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: I and my family visited it earlier this month and 158 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: it's named in honor of Wilson. And it echoes his 159 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: ideas and values. And he's he's been there, he's done, 160 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: he's he's visited the center, so he's he's he's very 161 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: much a part of it's it's ethos. I guess you, 162 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: I guess you would say, so, what's this place like? 163 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: It's wonderful. So my family was vacationing at Graton Beach, 164 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: which is close to Deston, But if you need a 165 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: broader idea of where it is, we're talking roughly halfway 166 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: along the coast between Pensacola and Panama City. And I 167 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: know that at times, if one is visiting Florida you're 168 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: not a Floridian yourself, there's sometimes a hesitancy to uh 169 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: to backtrack away from the beach too much. But there 170 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: there are some I mean, far from from just this 171 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: one location. There's some wonderful outdoor uh you know, things 172 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: to see in the States. So so don't be afraid 173 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: to explore a bit. Uh No, I know exactly what 174 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about. Some people really love the beach. I 175 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: really love the swamp. Yeah. One of my favorite places 176 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: that have been to a few times now is uh 177 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: Coola Springs State Park in Florida. This is where you 178 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: have this wonderful deep natural spring. You have manateees coming 179 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: in this rich um estuary environment with protected regions. Is 180 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: this where you saw the leaping fish? When we jump 181 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: off leaping fish, they were just leaping around like it 182 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: was a Disney movie. It was fabulous. If you haven't 183 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: caught that episode, that's from I guess a year or 184 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: so ago. Yeah, but yeah, I go back and check 185 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: out our episode about jumping fish. That was a more 186 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: interesting topic than I expected. Yeah, that one and and 187 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: at times deadly. I'll make sure we linked to that 188 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: one on the landing page for this episode is Stuff 189 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. But the Edward O. 190 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: Wilson Center, Yeah, so it's a wonderful indoor outdoor educational 191 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: center and it really does an excellent job of relating 192 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: biology to two young people. Most of the time, during 193 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: the course of the year it's it's only open to 194 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 1: school groups and whatnot. But during the summer June and 195 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: July it's open to the public on Thursdays and Fridays. 196 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about it, you can 197 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: go to E. O. Wilson Center dot org. Uh. But yeah, 198 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: it's wonderful. There's a giant bird when you first walk 199 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: in the door. They are giant animals to crawl on. 200 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: There's a there's an observable bee colony honey bees you 201 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: can check out and try and find the queen. So 202 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: if it's Edward Wilson Center, I would expect there to 203 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: be ants there right. There are ants. Yes, there's a 204 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: huge display on ants, a giant ant that you can 205 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: crawl on. Yeah. So it's it's it's really wonderful stuff. 206 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: I recommend going like honey, I shrunk the kids scale. Yes. Well, 207 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: so before we get into the biophelia hypothesis, we I 208 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: guess we should talk about Edward Wilson himself because one 209 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: of the so he's got this book from nineteen four 210 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: I believe, is from the nineteen eighties called Biophelia, where 211 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: he first articulates this idea. Now he would explore it 212 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: more in a later book. Um, but this book, Biophilia 213 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: is a is a book I've read, and it's a 214 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: really enjoyable scientific memoir. A lot of what he talks 215 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: about is like his research on ants and his field 216 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: work in places like Suriname and Papua New Guinea, And 217 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: so he weaves together these themes from his life and 218 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: from his work in science and his thoughts about what 219 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: the role of science and society is. The the idea 220 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: that ties this all together is this idea of biophilia 221 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: are innate affiliation with or desire to focus on other 222 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: living life forms in natural landscapes or lifelike processes. Now, 223 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: there's some ambiguity in there, and we can address that 224 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: ambi uity later and any problems that might cause for 225 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: this as a hypothesis. But he definitely has a personal 226 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: way of expressing his feelings about this idea, right. It 227 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: very much connects back to stories throughout his life. Yeah, 228 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: so it's important to note that Edward O. Wilson is 229 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: he's the real deal here. He is. He's he is 230 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: an acclaimed scientist, uh specifically an entomologist, and he is 231 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: a and he is a very accomplished author. Like he 232 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: he officially retired in but he's just continued to write books, 233 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: uh like almost every year. I mean, his bibliography is 234 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: incredible and his books are good. He's one of those 235 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: science writers who is actually a very very good writer. 236 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: He's expressive and poetic, but he also gets to the 237 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: point I think he's one of the better scientists slash 238 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: science writers in America. Yeah and then. And he's also 239 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: very relatable, especially when you see him, you know, in 240 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: person or a video or a Ted talk. He's he's Alabamable, worn, 241 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: he's very folksy, and he describes himself as being essentially 242 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: still a child at heart, and he has that kind 243 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: of enthusiasm for nature. So I mentioned he was born 244 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: in an earlier biographical detail that often comes up and 245 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: he attributes to being what sort of steered him into 246 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: studying ants is that he was seven years old and 247 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: he blinded himself in one eye during a fishing accident, 248 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: you know what. He pulled up a fish and the 249 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: finn got him right, and spiny finn got him in 250 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: the eye and blinded him. And so he this led 251 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: him to focus more, he says, on little things, things 252 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: that he could actually get up, you know, get up 253 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: close to with an eyeglass. So he turned to ants entomology. 254 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: This game his key area of research. He attended the 255 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: University of Alabama and earned his bachelor's and masters in biology, 256 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: and he identified fire ants as an invasive species and 257 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: reported on the first US colony of fire ants. That 258 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: was while he was in college. That was when he 259 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: was in college, the early days for him. Um and 260 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: and this is we were just talking about this before 261 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: we went on the air. Here there's a video on 262 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 1: you to uh and it was I believe it. It 263 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: is aligned with the E. O. Wilson Center. But it 264 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,599 Speaker 1: starts off narrated by Harrison Ford and uh and in 265 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: Attenborough comes in and talks about how how how amazing 266 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,599 Speaker 1: Edward o'wilson is. So this this video is weird for 267 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: multiple reasons, and one of them is that you hear 268 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: Harrison Ford trying to sound enthusiastic about something, which I 269 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: don't know if I've ever heard before. Yeah, you know, 270 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: the most chronically bored and unenthusiastic actor in the history 271 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: of cinema, and we love him for it. But he's 272 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: he's talking about the greatness of the work of Edward Wilson, 273 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: and he still kind of has that that lake onic, sad, 274 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: not very excited edge in his voice. Yeah, even though 275 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: this is this is clearly like he's clearly passionate about it, 276 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: Like you did this for a reason. But later on 277 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: in the video, you're following Edward o Wilson, like recent 278 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: Edward O. Wilson, Old Edward O. Wilson wandering around in 279 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: the Florida wilderness, coming up to uh a fire ant colony. 280 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: He reaches down with his bare hand, stirs them up 281 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: like scrapes the nest and they all begin to swarm. 282 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: And then he sticks his hand in the nest and 283 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: lets them crawl in his hand and lets them begin 284 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: to uh to attack his hand and uh and then 285 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: he brushes them off. But it really demonstrates his man 286 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: his devotion to connecting with the natural world and his 287 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: fascination with the With these insects, well, it's almost deranged 288 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: because he's he's like smiling gleefully as they're all stinging 289 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: and attacking the back of his hand. He's got these 290 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: hundreds of ants on his skin and he's like each 291 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: one of these bites is like a hot needle. But 292 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: it it just shows you how, you know, how fascinated 293 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: he is with them like that he would have this 294 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: really kind of a holy moment, Like I kept thinking 295 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: of St. Francis with the animals, only instead of touching 296 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: a you know, petting a lamb, he's petting fire ants. 297 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: If lambs could sting. Yes, so um Edward O. Wilson 298 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: h So, he moved onto Harvard in nine and he 299 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: joined the faculty there and again he retired in UH. 300 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: But but he remains on as an honorary curator in 301 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: entomology and he's during the course of his career again, 302 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: he's written numerous books. He's received more awards than we 303 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: can list in this podcast, including the Pulitzer Prize, which 304 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: he I believe received at least twice. UH. He's received 305 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: the Ted Prize and the U S National Medal of 306 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: Science again just to name a few. Now, a lot 307 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: of Wilson's efforts outside of his scientific research over the 308 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: years have been focused on the idea of conservation and 309 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: preservation of nature. Yes, that we have this rich biodiversity. 310 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: Everything is connected, and we have to preserve it because 311 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: if you start you start pulling things out, you start 312 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: allowing things to go dark in this epic grid of 313 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: by a biodiverse um life, then you're gonna have cascading 314 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: collapses and you're going to You're going to to risk 315 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: tremendous damage to our ecosystem. He sort of reminds me 316 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: of the influence of somebody who I enjoyed talking about 317 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: last year in our summer reading episode, which is the 318 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: early ecologist Alexander von Humboldt sort of responsible for the 319 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: idea of ecology, both focusing on the inner connections between 320 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: things in nature. How an organism doesn't No organism is 321 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: an island, It doesn't stand on its own, and they 322 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: all have connected inter dependencies. And we we we threaten 323 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: natural life forms at our own peril. And I think 324 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: he frames this in two ways. He says, you know, 325 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: destroying natural habitats and destroying organisms that may in fact 326 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: be some kind of keystone species in a natural ecology 327 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: that threatens us materially, like these can have negative effects 328 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: on our health. It can lead to the spread of 329 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: new diseases, It can make resources harder to get, it 330 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: can cause all kinds of problems for us materially. But 331 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: he also emphasizes a lot just just the feeling of 332 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: pleasure we get from nature and how important it is 333 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: to our sense of well being and happiness to have 334 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: intact natural ecologies around us. And this is sort of 335 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 1: how he gets to the biophilia hypothesis. All Right, we're 336 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break, and when we come back 337 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: we will dive into the biophilia hypothesis and discuss what 338 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: it's saying. Uh, and also eventually we also get to 339 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: some criticism about it. All right, we're back. So Wilson 340 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: proposed this term biophilia meaning the love of life in 341 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: the short publication back in biophilia the human bond with 342 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: other species, and he defined this as humanities innate tendency 343 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: to focus on living things as opposed to the inanimate, 344 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: and in effect, he argued for in innate love of nature. 345 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: Now there you already see some tension in the definitions, right, 346 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: because in one statement there it's talking about focusing on 347 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: other life forms and lifelike processes, and in the other 348 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: statement it's saying that we naturally love nature. Now, focusing 349 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: on things and loving them are different. And this is 350 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: going to be one of the problems people have raised 351 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: with the biofilia hypothesis is um that it may not 352 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: be exactly pinned down on exactly what the hypothesis is saying. 353 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: But for now we we should just try to explain 354 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: the way it's usually expressed by people who are in 355 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: favor of the biofilia hypothesis, and they tend to go 356 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: with the focus idea, right, that it's that we focus 357 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: on other living things and lifelike processes, where for some 358 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: reason we're way more interested in trees than we are 359 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: in rocks. Now. I should also add that the term 360 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: biofiliate itself was used earlier in the nineties sixties by 361 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: the German social psychologist Eric from to denote a psychological 362 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: orientation towards nature. But uh, it was really Lee Wilson 363 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: who then took it and tweet the meaning and really 364 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: led to its primary usage today. Well, maybe we should 365 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: read a passage from Wilson to see what what he 366 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: has to say about the concept. He says, the object 367 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: of my reflection can be summarized by a single word, biophilia, 368 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: which I will be so bold as to define as 369 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: the innate tendency to focus on life and lifelike processes. 370 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: From infancy, we concentrate happily on ourselves and other organisms. 371 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: We learned to distinguish life from the inanimate and move 372 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: toward it like moths to a porch. Light. Novelty and 373 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: diversity are particularly esteemed. The mere mention of the word 374 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial evokes reveries about still unexplored life, displacing the old 375 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: and once potent exotic that drew earlier generations to remote 376 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: islands and jungled interiors. That much is immediately clear, but 377 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: a great deal more needs to be added. I will 378 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: make the case that to explore and affiliate with life 379 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: is a deep and complicated process in mental development, to 380 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: an extent still undervalued and philosophy and religion. Our our 381 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: existence depends on this propensity. Our spirit is woven from it. 382 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: Hope rises on its currents. Yeah, I like that, and 383 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: so I like that he's he's situating biophilia as a 384 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: sort as a hypothesis to explain something about our nature. 385 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: But it also, I think for him takes on a 386 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: sort of propulsive meaning about like how we should act. 387 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: That if we act in accordance with with these natural 388 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: urges to affiliate with nature, we can sort of shed 389 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: this man conquers nature mentality that was present in a 390 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: lot of human history. And you might wonder, like, Okay, 391 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: so if throughout a lot of human history we've had 392 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: this mentality of you know, we've got to tame the 393 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: beast of nature, We've got to make it bend to 394 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: our will and defeat our predatory adversaries wild? Is that 395 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: is that tendency throughout human history a challenge to the 396 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: bio philly a hypothesis. I don't know, what do you think, Robert, Well, 397 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: we'll discuss this a little bit more as we go. 398 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: But I do find it interesting that even in environmental circles, 399 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: even in um, in environmental movements, you see them, you 400 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: see individuals evoke this idea of mastery over nature. You know, 401 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: it becomes this idea of saving the planet, positioning man, 402 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: is this as as not completely you know, dishonestly, but 403 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: positioning us as individuals with power over nature, and therefore 404 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: we should use our power over nature to rain things 405 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: in and gain control over the situation. I like the 406 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: way you put it there with about the idea of 407 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: saving the planet, Like why do what does it mean 408 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: when you talk about saving the whales versus not hurting 409 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: the whales? I mean essentially you're you're saying the same thing, 410 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: but they're starting with different assumptions. Uh. When if you 411 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: were to say save the whales, it almost says like, 412 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, we have of two fates on a scale 413 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: that we control, and we can press one side down 414 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: or press the other side down, save them or kill them. 415 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: But really the idea is that on their own they'd 416 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: be fine. We are doing things to them to kill them. 417 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: You know, it's not like they were naturally going extinct 418 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: when we found them. Yeah, so you could have you 419 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: can have one person that's saying save the whales, and 420 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: the other person could say, let's live in harmony with 421 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: the whales. Ultimately they may be arguing for the same thing, 422 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: but that but each argument cast humanity and its role 423 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: with nature in a slightly different light. Yeah, and so 424 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: I think the the stop harming the environment as opposed 425 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: to save the environment might be better because it better 426 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: emphasizes the fact that we we live alongside all the 427 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: other organisms in the environment and we need them. They're 428 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: not like pets that we're deciding what to do with. 429 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: Of course, then again, messaging is aimed at at the listener, 430 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: and there are going to be certain group, certain individuals 431 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: that are going to react more strongly to two different 432 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: arguments and say, hey, you have the power to say 433 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: some whales. Don't you want to say some whales? Yeah, 434 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: that made me feel really good. But if you say, hey, man, 435 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: stop killing the whales. Stop hurting the whale, stop wrecking 436 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: our environment. You know that puts sometimes a negative spin 437 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: on it that is not going to be as embraced 438 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: by an individual or group. Yeah. I guess it's the 439 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: superhero mentality. You want to be the superhero and save 440 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: the bus full of children. It's not all that exciting 441 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: to say that you wouldn't harm a bus full of children. Yeah. 442 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: I have one more quote from Wilson I want to 443 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: read before we move forward. He just because this is 444 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: just another example of his his beautiful ability to to 445 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: sum up so many of these environmental ideas. He says, 446 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: the living environment is what really sustains us. The living 447 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: environment creates the soil, creates most of the atmosphere. It 448 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: is not just something out there. The biosphere is a membrane, 449 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: a very thin membrane of living organism. Now it's important 450 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: to point out that as a scientific HYPOTHESI this if 451 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: Biophelia has anything to say, it should have something to say, 452 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: meaning that it shouldn't just be you know, people love nature, right, 453 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: because we that's sort of obvious. People do generally tend 454 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,239 Speaker 1: to love nature in one way or another, even if 455 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: you're not really an outdoors person, You probably have some 456 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: kind of preference for natural shapes, for plant environments, for 457 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: things like that over dead, dry, uninhabited landscapes. I mean, 458 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: think about picture the surface of the Moon or Mars 459 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: or something like that. Does that look like a place 460 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: you want to live? No, But at the same time 461 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: it is. It is an environment, right. I Mean, we 462 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: were just talking about Arabia Mountain yesterday, which is a 463 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: local hiking area in the Atlanta area, and we were saying, Oh, 464 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: it's great, it's like walking on another planet. It's like 465 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: being on the moon. Yeah, it's cool for a couple hours. 466 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: It's it's not a place that I would want to live, 467 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: I think, because well, even though there are some plants 468 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: on it, the thing about Arabia Mountain is it's placed 469 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: near atlant know where it's this this outcropping of mostly 470 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: bald stone that has no soil. It has no plants. 471 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: There are a few little groves on it that have 472 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: trees and bushes growing up out of them, but mostly 473 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: it's just bare rock. And while I'm there, it's cool, 474 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: but it's cool for exactly the reason that it's not 475 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: a place I'd want to stay. Does that make sense? 476 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: But how do you feel about the desert. I like 477 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: the desert, but the desert is full of life. I 478 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: don't know how i'd feel about, well, the desert I've 479 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: been to. I mean, like, I've been to the Chihuahua 480 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: Desert and it's full of life. It's fascinating. And the 481 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: life in the desert when you come to like a 482 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: place where there's a river flowing through a desert and 483 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: there's green radiating out away from it, the life you 484 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: see becomes all the more precious because of how scarce 485 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: the greenery and things are in other places around. Now 486 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: a place that's just pure sand dunes with no life 487 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: forms at all, I don't know. That's cool to look 488 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: out for a few minutes, but I don't know if 489 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: i'd want to stay there. Okay, uh yeah, I guess 490 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: it's gonna vary from from person to person, but I 491 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: would love to hear from anyone out there is Listening's like, yes, 492 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: build me a cabin in a out on the sand 493 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: dunes and would be happy. Uh. You might have might 494 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: be able to put a make a stronger argument for it. 495 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: Now to your point about this being a hypothesis too, 496 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: and about it being scientific scientifically grounded. Is that on 497 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: one hand, yes, biophilia involves an ethos and uh and 498 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: a lot of just commentary on what it is to 499 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: be human and the human experience. But then there is 500 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: also the the idea that there's at least in part 501 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: a genetically and involved, that this is something that is 502 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: going to go deeper than just uh, you know how 503 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: we're nurtured, but it's going to get down to our 504 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: core biological nature. Yeah, this would make it biologically testable. 505 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: It's say, it's that our tendency to affiliate with nature, 506 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: or tendency to focus on life and lifelike processes is 507 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: somehow determined by our gene, or at least it's primed 508 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: by our genes. Gene primed learning is a thing that 509 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: they often emphasize. So that should, in theory be testable 510 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: in some way if you're clear enough about what it 511 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: is you're looking for. So maybe we should talk about 512 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: some of the commonly cited evidence by biophilia theorists. What 513 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: do they say are good reasons to think that we 514 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: have this innate, in inherited tendency to affiliate with other 515 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: life forms? All right, well, here's some of the here's 516 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: some of the anecdotal evidence. All right, Um, so, first 517 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: of all, universal appreciation for nature across human cultures. Now 518 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: we've already touched on this a little bit, but it's 519 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: just the idea that would no matter where you go, 520 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: there's going to be nature and natural elements wrapped up 521 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: in that culture. And Uh, one example that I really 522 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: like is people in very different cultures over the world 523 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: tend to like a particular kind of landscape, a landscape 524 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: that just happens to be similar to the Pleistocene savannas. Uh, 525 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: that we evolved to thrive in the ideal savannah. Yeah, 526 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: and this is related to a concept to known and 527 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: evolutionary psychology is the environment of evolutionary adapted nous or 528 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: the e e A, which is basically the idea that 529 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: animals tend to be adapted not to live anywhere on Earth, 530 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: but for a particular landscape or type of environment that 531 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: shaped their genes. And if that's the case, you've sort 532 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: of like put your chips down on being the kind 533 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: of organism that thrives in this kind of place. And 534 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: as such, you should have some kind of mechanisms in 535 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: your brain that tell you seek out that kind of 536 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,959 Speaker 1: place where you play best. Yes, now this I love this. 537 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: Uh this this theory in this idea about art though, 538 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: because if you spend any time in museums, you run 539 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: across the landscapes. And sometimes I'm not I'm not too 540 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: much of a landscape guy. I tend to walk by 541 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: a lot of the unless there's something really cool going on, 542 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: such as uh we were just in the last episode 543 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: talking about or one of our previous episodes talking about 544 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: landscape with the fall of Vicharus by h was it 545 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: Bosha brugle I can't brugle b and uh, so you 546 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: have one detail of a falling mythological figure, but then 547 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: also just a natural landscape with human activity and nature 548 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: going on. So when you do, when you look at 549 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: a lot of these these works of landscape art, you 550 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: find open spaces of low grasses interspersed with copses of trees. 551 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: The trees tend to fork near the ground, which is 552 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: to say, if they're tree, their trees you could scramble 553 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: up into if you needed to get away from something. 554 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: There's water close by or in the distance, so you 555 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: don't feel like you're going to necessarily dry up or 556 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: you know you or you'd be able to take a 557 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: swim if you got overheated, or there's there are indications 558 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: of animal life, maybe birds in the distance, as well 559 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: as diverse green ory. And finally, get this, a path 560 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: or a road, perhaps a river bank or a shoreline 561 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: that extends into the distance, almost inviting you to follow it. 562 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: And in this type of landscape is generally regard it 563 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: is beautiful, even by people in countries that don't have it. 564 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: You know, like your your culture might not have a 565 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: lot of landscape art, but you're gonna there's a very 566 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: good chance you're going to encounter another culture's landscape art 567 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: and you're gonna get it. You know, you can be complete. 568 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: You could have never seen any you know, say Chinese 569 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: or Japanese landscape art, and then you would view it 570 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: and you'd be like, yeah, I totally get it, and 571 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: you're you're just drawn into it. You you want to 572 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: crawl into the painting and run around with the trees. Okay. 573 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: So this is commonly cited anecdotal evidence about the kinds 574 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: of art and imagery people prefer. Now, I would say, 575 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: as a counter example, as long as we're sticking with 576 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: anecdotal for now, and when we're not claiming to have 577 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: some kind of strong empirical case. I'd say, just personally, 578 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: when I think about landscape images, I like the most. 579 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: I like mountain images. Yeah, well, you know, one of 580 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: these things is that to what is often going on 581 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: in a mountain image. I mean, you're gonna have some 582 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: somebody or something standing at a peak looking out just 583 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: having you know, mastery over the landscape, being able to 584 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: survey everything around you and see predators approaching you from 585 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: a distance. You could very much argue that that's an 586 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: evolutionary adaptation as well. Yeah, because exactly having having the 587 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: higher ground gives you the ability to see what's coming 588 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: in in multiple directions. But of course that isn't exactly biophilia, 589 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: because that that's talking about landscapes, w It's not really 590 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: talking about organisms or lifelike processes. Though. One thing I 591 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: will point out is that in some of the biophilia 592 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: literature there does seem to be sometimes a kind of 593 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: blurry nous or fuzziness about whether we're talking still just 594 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: about natural organisms, or whether this is turning into a 595 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: preference for natural types of landscapes as opposed to I 596 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: don't know what cities or something like that. Yeah. Now, 597 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: and another example that comes up is the fact that 598 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: some of the earliest human art works are the the 599 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: the various cave paintings that show you know, realistic animals, 600 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: realistic human beings and uh and uh, and also just 601 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: decorative motifs that are clearly inspired by natural world organisms. Totally. Yeah, 602 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: you see these these ancient reverent images, and they tend 603 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: to be what they tend to be animals, Yeah, especially 604 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: prey animals that you might be hunting. Yeah, exactly. And 605 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, these date back thirty two thousand years in 606 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: the case of some of the French cave paintings that 607 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: we've seen, and if you if you consider shell necklaces 608 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: and whatnot, which might be stretching the argument a little bit, 609 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: but that can take you back a good hundred thousand years. Now. 610 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: Beyond that, there are other anecdotal examples, like landscape architecture 611 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: is full of of of examples of this. I ran 612 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: across some of some material by Bill Brown and Keith 613 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: Bowers and Carol Franklin, all of them landscape architects and uh, 614 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: and they point out that you're just frekently going to 615 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: encounter actual nature inside of of a building. You're going 616 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: to counter fish tanks and plants you can encounter. Uh, 617 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, ornaments and patterns that read like nature. So 618 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: it might be you say, you're in Florida and then 619 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: you go into a beach resort. But is there going 620 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: to be some sort of pineapple design, you know on 621 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: the pillars or on the wallpaper. Uh, you have to 622 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: take that into account and uh and oh and then 623 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,959 Speaker 1: that opens savannah that we crave. Well, you could argue 624 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: that we also create it to some extent in our 625 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: golf courses. You're right, golf courses. In a way, it's 626 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: it's a weird combination, like the ultimate mastery over nature. 627 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: You and you enslave nature and just turn it into 628 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: your own yard game then and bend it to your will. 629 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: But still you're you're evoking certain natural motifs, you know. Yeah, 630 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm so impressed by that. I 631 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: feel like you've golf courses. You just blew my Savannah 632 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: hypothesis skepticism out of the water. And uh, I mean 633 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: it does go to show that the idea of biophilia, 634 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: there's like overt biophilia and then biophilia in ways that 635 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: you didn't even realize you were. You were, you know, 636 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: employing it. Like. Another example of that is the symbolic 637 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: use of nature and human language. Oh yeah, all our 638 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: metaphors are nature metaphors. Yeah, you know a lot of 639 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: a lot of them are very over you know, blind 640 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: as a bat. Wise, is it now pretty as a peacock, 641 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: crazy as a rat as an outhouse rat? Um? Whoa, 642 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: whoa what? Oh yeah, thats a real expression, just like that, 643 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: as crazy as an outhouse rat. And then there's crazy 644 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: as a rat and a coffee can I love a 645 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: good crazy rat? Uh? Analogy there? But how about a 646 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: bull in a China shop? A bull in a China 647 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: shop is good too. Of course, China shops are not 648 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: very uh, very much part of our revolutionary adapted landscape. 649 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: But but but the bull is the bull, the bull 650 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: and various other animals as a way to evoke personality, 651 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: you know. And the thing is, these are these are 652 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: just some of the obvious ones, but it gets a 653 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: lot more elegant, to the point that you're not always 654 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: aware that you're invoking animal imagery in your language, but 655 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: it's there. Oh and then I mean we could go 656 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,240 Speaker 1: on for forever here about about spiritual everance for nature 657 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: across cultures totally. Ye, think of all the sacred places 658 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: in global myth, from dentic gardens to sacred mountains to 659 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 1: primordial oceans like we discussed in our recent episode about 660 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: creating a universe. Yeah, I agree with that, though yet 661 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: again there were somewhat blurring the original definition. If the 662 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 1: hypothesis is supposed to be about organisms, Wait a minute, 663 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: are we talking about landscapes or just organism? Well, let's 664 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: talk about organisms. Let's look at all those gods and 665 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: demigods that we have rolling about, uh how much? I mean, 666 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: certainly there are examples of very anthropomorphic deities that are 667 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: just pretty much just tall bearded people. But yet even 668 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: in even say Abrahamic tradition, you have what you have 669 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: winged angels that's invoking uh like you know, hybrid or 670 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: or chimerical imagery. And then you have just straight up yeah, 671 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: you have the world serpents. You have celestial dragons in 672 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: Chinese mythology that are themselves com posits of all these 673 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: various animal motifs. And of course you look at the 674 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: pantheon of the Hindu deities and you see all of 675 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: these wonderful animal forms. Now, Wilson himself is very much 676 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: into the idea of serpent imagery throughout human culture. As 677 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: one example of that, he sites of biophilia. But this 678 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: goes into Wilson's broader definition of biophilia because as some 679 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: people employ the term, they think that it just means 680 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: like love of other organisms or love of nature. Wilson 681 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: goes with that focus on that our attention is naturally 682 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: drawn to and stuck on other organisms, especially organisms that 683 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: have some kind of evolutionary relevance for us, and one 684 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: of the examples is the widespread biophobia of snakes. So 685 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: for Wilson, biophobia is actually a subset of biophilia. We've 686 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: got this relationship with other organisms, and so the serpent 687 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: human mind relationship is something that that he really focuses on. 688 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: He talks about how common snake dreams are across human cultures, 689 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: how common snake imagery is in religions on all all 690 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: parts of the planet, how common snake imagery is an 691 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: art that they're just snakes everywhere, we apparently can't get 692 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: them off the brain. And then he also compares this 693 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: to the way that other primates seem to react to 694 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: snakes with with greater alarm and magnitude of activity than 695 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: they would too many other types of animals of comparable size. 696 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, and and it goes beyond beyond 697 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: that indo our various pet animals. If anyone's ever conducted 698 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: the cucumber test with a cat, replace the cucumber on 699 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: the the the floor behind them when they're not looking. No, 700 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: they'll turn around, and if they glimpse the cucumber they'll jump. Whoa, um, 701 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: I've had I have not had a lot of luck 702 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: with this experiment with my own cat, granted how many 703 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: times he tried. Only when I'm holding a cucumber in 704 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: the kitchen and I looked down and see the cat 705 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: facing the other way. So maybe you need longer cucumbers, yeah, 706 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: or just more you know, I should, I should plan 707 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: more in my cat experiments. But then, of course, anyone 708 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: who's in who's ever and involved themselves with horses knows. 709 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: You know how a horse can behave if it sees 710 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: a snake. I mean, and and I'm not even sure 711 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: about dogs. I assume dogs have strong reactions to serpents 712 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I'd imagine just the other day, my 713 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,919 Speaker 1: dog Charlie tried to eat a dead one. Oh well, 714 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: we're out walking. It's there on the sidewalk, belly up, 715 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: rotting a little bit and he he saw a snack. 716 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: Do yank him away? You have to get in there now. 717 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: Back to the idea of religion and UH in biophilia, 718 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, I also think that that heavily nature line 719 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: faiths illustrate this as well, such as like Shinto comes 720 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: to mind, you know, the Japanese UH mentality that there 721 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,280 Speaker 1: is UH. You know, there's a there's a spiritual energy 722 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: and all things. And granted some of that includes rocks 723 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: but statues, but it can you know, certainly includes a 724 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: natural forms as well an organism UH. And there's actually 725 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: an excellent article in the New York Times from this week. 726 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: By the time you hear it, it it will be like 727 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks old, I guess. But it's about 728 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: resurgent religious faith in China and the environmental activism that 729 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: is coming with it. And it's hardly an underground thing. 730 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: President Jijin Ping has a champion to return to interest 731 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: in Chinese culture and particularly Taoism and Confusism. So and 732 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,399 Speaker 1: part of this is countering Western influences, but he's called 733 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: for China to return to its roots as a quote, 734 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: ecological civilization. Now, the article also points out that the 735 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: movement as vote motivating Chinese Buddhists, Christians, and Muslims as well. 736 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's always I think worth reminding 737 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,839 Speaker 1: everyone that the China is is home to fifty five 738 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: distinct ethnic groups, even if Han is the majority there. Uh, 739 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: and they're also numerous religious faiths. Now, I wonder how 740 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: this initiative plays into the Chinese government's enabling of heavy 741 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: polluting industry. I mean, of course they're not unique in 742 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: government to enable that. But no, no, that's a that's 743 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 1: a a fair fair criticism, and I think that's certainly 744 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: a conflict in uh in China, uh presently um. And 745 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, there are other motivations as well, such as 746 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: with you know, the U S sort of taking a 747 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: a lesser role in the environmental leadership, that there's a 748 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: place for someone like China to step up and assume power. 749 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: So there's power here as well. Uh, that's that's at stake. 750 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: But as this article by Javierra see Hernandez points out, 751 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: there's there's more of an emphasis in these resulting environmental 752 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: movements on living in harmony with nature rather than what 753 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,280 Speaker 1: is perceived as a Western take on saving the Earth. 754 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: To come back to the distinction we were talking about earlier, 755 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,439 Speaker 1: so it's don't kill the whales, not save the whales, right, Yeah. 756 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 1: And I think this is interesting in light of by affiliate, 757 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: because I think it's very in keeping with the message 758 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: of stewardship understanding biodiversity. But at the same time we 759 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: see that that very savior message, uh, you know, invoked 760 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: in materials promoting Edward Wilson and biophilia that like that 761 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: Harrison Ford video we're talking about. He describes that quote 762 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: as an epic battle to save our planet and it 763 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: will involve swords and magic staves. And then you know, 764 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: there are some people will actually bring a technology into 765 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: this argument as well. Wilson himself said that the more 766 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: we understand organisms through science, the closer we become to them. Uh. 767 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: And while technology can arguably distance ourselves from nature as well, 768 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,280 Speaker 1: it can bring us closer. Molecular biology and genetic engineering, 769 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: for example, bring us closer to nature because is a 770 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: greater understanding. And you can even argue that the search 771 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: for extraterrestrial life too is a biophilic endeavor. Oh, I mean, 772 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: the CT is almost perfect example of biophilia if there 773 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: is any merit to the idea, because like, there are 774 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: millions of planets out there that we could be interested in, 775 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: and what are we interested in. We're interested in the 776 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: ones that have life on them. Now that could you 777 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: could say that there there's just sort of like a 778 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: cognitively recognized self preservation instinct right that we we say, Okay, 779 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: if there's another planet with life on it out there 780 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: could be a threat to us, could help us, so 781 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: that we have motivations based in our cognitive capacities to 782 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: understand that life has this this value out there. But 783 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: that's not the only kind of life we're interested in. 784 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: People have been looking for microbes in the soil of 785 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: Mars for decades. Now, you know, we scoop up the 786 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: soil of Mars and we want to see things alive 787 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: in it. Why do we care so much about that? 788 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's not just scientists who care. I 789 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: understand why scientists care because it's part of their life's work. 790 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,919 Speaker 1: But the average person really does care. Usually whether there's 791 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: life on Mars. That's an interesting question to them. Why, Well, 792 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: because the answer ends up saying I mean, it ends 793 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: up saying something about ourselves and about life itself, you know. 794 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: But but also I think just because life is interesting, 795 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 1: that the presence of life somewhere makes that place so 796 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,839 Speaker 1: much more fascinating than an otherwise dead rock covered in 797 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: loose soil and stones. This makes me want to see 798 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: more sort of darkly Edward Wilson type characters and some 799 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: of our sci fi horror. You know, someone who's going 800 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: to really just reach out and touch the xenomorphs and 801 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 1: love them. I guess we do see characters like that 802 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: in the various alien films that Brad Dworf comes to 803 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:30,280 Speaker 1: mind in the Alien Resurrection. I can't speak any anything 804 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: positive but Thelian Resurrection. Let's move on. All right, Well, 805 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: let's move on to DA Let's take one more quick break, 806 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: and when we come back we'll get into measurable bio 807 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: biological evidence for biophilia as well as some evidence against it. Alright, 808 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: we're back. So so far we've been talking not super 809 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: rigorously about science. We've been talking about general anecdotal observations 810 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: about people's behavi of vir about culture, about our own feelings, 811 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: and that's fine, but that's not going to prove a 812 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,839 Speaker 1: scientific hypothesis and make it a workable theory, right. And 813 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: and Edward Wilson has has been pretty clear throughout his 814 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: career with this that like, there's not strong evidence for it, 815 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: that there I think he more recently said, yeah, there's 816 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,879 Speaker 1: stronger evidence for it, but he's not He realizes that 817 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: the evidence is not there yet. A lot of more 818 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: research is required. But some of the measurable evidence that's 819 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: out there. We've already touched on this a little bit, 820 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: but measurable physiological responses and humans that are exposed to 821 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,839 Speaker 1: sometimes just images of snakes or spiders, right, There has 822 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,240 Speaker 1: been actual empirical research on this, and and it's comparing 823 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,839 Speaker 1: our responses as humans to the responses especially of other primates, 824 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: to say, like, is there some inherited, uh genetic component 825 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: to our reactions to these animals that's not just culturally learned. Yes, 826 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: that in a way, there's just like there's there's awareness, 827 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: there's an important like sub cognitive awareness, you know. And 828 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 1: to go back to the the idea of biophobia, this 829 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: would be a biophobia that Wilson would include underneath his 830 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: definition of biophilia, it would be a natural focus or 831 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: attention that we give to certain types of organisms. Now, 832 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 1: another big area and this is this is certainly an 833 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: area where there been a number of of studies over 834 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 1: the years, and we can easily do a whole episode 835 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 1: on it. But the importance of sunlight on mood and productivity. 836 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Now how would that because obviously the sunlight 837 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,239 Speaker 1: is not like an organism, so right, but it's it's 838 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: I believe the argument is that you're getting into the 839 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: idea that like being being outdoors, being in nature, there 840 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 1: are there are aspects of nature that yes, aren't directly 841 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: aligned with organisms but aren't but is responsible for organisms 842 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: that we're going to have this innate connection with. So 843 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: this is expanding the definition. And I have seen this 844 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,720 Speaker 1: done and some people who talk about the subject expanding 845 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: the definition to say that it's not just the desire 846 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: to affiliate with organisms, it with natural environments. Like when 847 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: people talk about how it's people want to seek out water, 848 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: being by the water or something like that, and that's 849 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,399 Speaker 1: you know, not necessarily being by a pool, but being 850 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: by a natural river, lake or something like that. Uh, 851 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,360 Speaker 1: that could be Yeah, I guess that could be a 852 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: peripheral or related type of idea. Now, another area of 853 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: measurable effect here ties in with study by Roger Yuruk 854 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: which found that patients recovering from surgery actually recovered much 855 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: more effectively uh if they were viewing trees and shrubs 856 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: as opposed to those who would just had a view 857 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: out their window of a brick wall. They also ended 858 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 1: up taking half the painkillers and made half the nursing calls. 859 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: So there was like a change in their behavior, and 860 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: not just in their reported effect, but in what they 861 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: actually did. If they could see some vegetation, Yeah, if 862 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: they just if they could just see some trees and 863 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, presumably maybe some squirrels and 864 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: birds in there as well. M So this is part 865 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: of a broader body of literature on the benefits of 866 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 1: vegetative environments. There's been a lot of research like this, 867 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 1: some of it also associated with the same guy uh 868 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: Roger Ulric and across different studies. People have this positive 869 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,359 Speaker 1: aesthetic reaction to plant filled environments, and these environments are 870 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: usually found to have some kind of stress reducing effect 871 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:26,319 Speaker 1: or somehow this otherwise restorative effect on mood and on behavior. 872 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: And this goes beyond vegetation as well. For example, people 873 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: tend to report reductions in stress or show fewer stress 874 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,320 Speaker 1: behaviors in the presence of an aquarium has live fish 875 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 1: in it. Or how about the often report. I mean, 876 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,239 Speaker 1: we don't need to tell you about all of the 877 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: tons of studies that report the health benefits and mood 878 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,720 Speaker 1: benefits of exposure to pets, companion animals, you know, lowering 879 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: your blood pressure and all, you know, all the stuff 880 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: like that over the years. Yeah, I think it's one 881 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,720 Speaker 1: of the reasons that you you have these hospital animals 882 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,840 Speaker 1: that make the rounds and just meeting Greek people. Uh, 883 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: just the idea being that this will this will improve 884 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,320 Speaker 1: their their condition at least in a small sense, but 885 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,440 Speaker 1: a measurable sense. One other thing I've read about this 886 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: interesting is the idea of humans preference for certain geometric patterns. 887 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,920 Speaker 1: For example, uh So, geometric patterns can be expressed in 888 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 1: terms of what are called fractal patterns, that are repeating 889 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,799 Speaker 1: patterns that are often said to resemble designs found in 890 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,320 Speaker 1: biological organisms and in nature. So if you look down 891 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,320 Speaker 1: at surfaces of the earth from above, say winding rivers 892 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,200 Speaker 1: through a plain or how mountain, how you know, the 893 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 1: the drainage areas in mountains form these these spiky patterns 894 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,440 Speaker 1: looking down from above, or if you look at the 895 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: branches of trees, or of ferns, or of the spirals 896 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 1: and flowering plants. I mean, it gets into the golden ratio, right. 897 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: I mean the idea that if you if you do 898 00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,320 Speaker 1: any image editing out there, you you know, you often 899 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,399 Speaker 1: bring one of these overlays, even sometimes like I used 900 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 1: the rule of thirds one a lot, which is a 901 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: very in organic way of of breaking up your photo. 902 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: But you can also bring in essentially a snail shell 903 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 1: so you can see this curve. Because so you end 904 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: up with situations where people are like, they may not 905 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,839 Speaker 1: be actually thinking this, but essentially they're looking at an 906 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,840 Speaker 1: image and saying, oh this this photograph of race cars 907 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,759 Speaker 1: is great, but I'd love it a little bit more. 908 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: It evoked an image of a snail shell, you know. Now, yeah, 909 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 1: you probably don't think it consciously, but people do. In 910 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:36,760 Speaker 1: some studies show preferences for fractal patterns, geometric fractal patterns 911 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,800 Speaker 1: at certain levels of of density branching, and these basically 912 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: are said to correspond to the most common patterns seen 913 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,760 Speaker 1: in natural organisms. So if you're thinking about branching trees 914 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 1: or mangrove roots or things like that, these are geometric 915 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: patterns that are brains seem to prefer looking at. Now, 916 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,920 Speaker 1: of course, one question about that is if we're respond 917 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: in the geometric patterns through some innate preference in our 918 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: brain that's not just culturally learned, but we we've got 919 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,319 Speaker 1: these inherited genetic preferences for things that spike at this 920 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,760 Speaker 1: angle this many times. One wonder is if that means 921 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,839 Speaker 1: you could trick your brain into satisfying any kind of 922 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 1: biophilic impulse to whatever extent that is real, just by 923 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 1: looking at dead geometric patterns or things like that that 924 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,040 Speaker 1: simulate whatever it is we notice in nature that we like, Yeah, 925 00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:30,719 Speaker 1: and I think here we get we get down to 926 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: this situation where biophilia it's kind of like the echoes 927 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,360 Speaker 1: of biophilia throughout our our life and our culture and 928 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,920 Speaker 1: our creations. Even things that don't you know, aren't overtly 929 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,439 Speaker 1: a statue of an animal or the the avocation of 930 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: of an animal's form, Uh, there's still aspects of it 931 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,879 Speaker 1: there that are resonating through most of what we do. Now, 932 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,640 Speaker 1: I think it's time to talk about some criticisms of 933 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,440 Speaker 1: the idea because if you if you can't tell I've 934 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,480 Speaker 1: got some reservations about aphilia. At the same time that 935 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 1: I find it strongly, intuitively persuasive, I also recognize that 936 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: the idea it's got some problems. So I wanted to 937 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 1: talk about one study I read that was published inn 938 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 1: and the journal Environmental Values, which is a peer reviewed 939 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,840 Speaker 1: environmental ethics journal by the author's joy and to Block 940 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: called Nature and I are to a critical examination of 941 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: the biophilia hypothesis. And like I said, while I I 942 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,320 Speaker 1: intuitively respond to a lot of what Wilson and people 943 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: like him have said, I think this article makes some 944 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: good points. So they're arguing against the biophilia hypothesis, and 945 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,320 Speaker 1: they don't argue that we don't have natural inherited tendencies 946 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: to focus on living things. But they're more talking about 947 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:49,440 Speaker 1: whether biophilia, as a commonly understood idea is a coherent 948 00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:55,400 Speaker 1: scientific construct. So this is the author's take. Biophilia is 949 00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,280 Speaker 1: presented as a hypothesis, and they say, Okay, that's fine, 950 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,359 Speaker 1: because when you're at the hypothesis age in science. You're 951 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,759 Speaker 1: not saying this is a proven theory or something like that. 952 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,319 Speaker 1: You're just saying, we're speculating about something that appears to 953 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 1: be the case. Let's do some experiments and find out 954 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,560 Speaker 1: if it's true. That would be fine. But there's one 955 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: key criterion for a hypothesis, and that's that it needs 956 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,759 Speaker 1: to be falsifiable. Now, this is buying into one particular 957 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,440 Speaker 1: theory about the demarcation problem separating science from pseudoscience. We've 958 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,280 Speaker 1: talked about that before, but this is a very commonly 959 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,040 Speaker 1: accepted solution of the demarcation problem. A hypothesis should be 960 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,720 Speaker 1: a statement that you can come up with some kind 961 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,840 Speaker 1: of way of showing whether it's true or false, that 962 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 1: you could prove it false. Now, they turned to the 963 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,960 Speaker 1: biophelia definition that's often offered by E. O. Wilson, which 964 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,120 Speaker 1: is quote, the innate tendency to focus on life and 965 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,200 Speaker 1: lifelike processes. And they break that into three key parts, 966 00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,520 Speaker 1: which is a the innate tendency be to focus and 967 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 1: see on life or lifelike processes. So they start by 968 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,800 Speaker 1: talking about life or life like processes, and this is 969 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,880 Speaker 1: a good point. They say, Okay, so how is life 970 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,239 Speaker 1: like defined? The hypothesis is often expanded to include things like, 971 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,239 Speaker 1: we've been talking about natural landscapes water features as the 972 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 1: object of biophilia, So is a waterfall an object of biophilia? 973 00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: Obviously a waterfall is not alive, but biophilia theorists sometimes 974 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: assert that moving water features and other things are lifelike 975 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 1: enough that they can be grouped under the biophilia rubric. 976 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: And on what basis do we conclude that? Like what 977 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: gets ruled in? And do people looking at a waterfall 978 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: really start thinking of it in the same way they 979 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,439 Speaker 1: would think of an organism? I'm not sure that there's 980 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: strong evidence for that. Well, I mean, I mean, if 981 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 1: you take the waterfall and you just think about flowing water, 982 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,279 Speaker 1: I mean, flowing waters is a habitat for organisms. Uh. 983 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,600 Speaker 1: And then you know, in any place where there's some 984 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,000 Speaker 1: sort of a dynamic with flowing water, there's a potential 985 00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:02,640 Speaker 1: for the the capture and consumption of said organisms. Yeah. 986 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,800 Speaker 1: I see that, But that that almost begs a greater 987 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,400 Speaker 1: expansion of the statement of the hypothesis, right, It seems 988 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,360 Speaker 1: like that would make it an innate tendency to focus 989 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,880 Speaker 1: on life or lifelike processes or environments that could sustain 990 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,719 Speaker 1: life or lifelike processes. But then you can also come 991 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,000 Speaker 1: back and say, what is a what is a branching uh, 992 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,360 Speaker 1: waterway but a bit of branching vein through a body? 993 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: Like does the form of the flowing water evoke the 994 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,680 Speaker 1: flow of blood through an organism or the you know, 995 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,480 Speaker 1: the chambers inside a plant. I mean, that's a good point, 996 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: but I guess I guess the question would be are 997 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,160 Speaker 1: people really seeing it that way? Like, is that is 998 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,880 Speaker 1: that entering their minds? Or are they just responding to 999 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,400 Speaker 1: water because sometimes you get thirsty, yeah, Or it's just 1000 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,920 Speaker 1: really loud, or they just like these moving features, or 1001 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,480 Speaker 1: there's some other thing about it that's yeah. So I 1002 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 1: think that's a decent point to raise. The next thing 1003 00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 1: they focus on is the idea of focusing. So in 1004 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,400 Speaker 1: that definition, there's some wishy washing us about what the 1005 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 1: human who experiences biophilia does. Like sometimes biophilia is treated 1006 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:15,040 Speaker 1: as the desire to quote affiliate with other organisms, And 1007 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,680 Speaker 1: to me, that means we would assume it to mean 1008 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: that you want to be near them, you want to 1009 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:21,920 Speaker 1: look at them, you want to touch them, you want 1010 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,359 Speaker 1: to interact with them. But other times there's this more 1011 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,319 Speaker 1: neutral word focus used. And and because of our biophilia, 1012 00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,640 Speaker 1: the ideas we focus on living organisms, they sort of 1013 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:37,520 Speaker 1: command our attention living organisms or lifelike processes. But they 1014 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 1: point out that there's there's not necessarily consistency here. Ulric 1015 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,920 Speaker 1: seems to define biophilia as a positive affiliation with life forms. 1016 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:50,759 Speaker 1: Wilson himself includes biophobia within the definition of biophilia, and 1017 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: one of his primary examples, as we talked about, is 1018 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:58,560 Speaker 1: this nearly universal mental obsession with snakes and frightening snake imagery. Um, 1019 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: so they say that, you know, this part of the 1020 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,319 Speaker 1: definition really does need to be more specific. We need 1021 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,840 Speaker 1: to figure out what we're talking about here. Is it 1022 00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,279 Speaker 1: just what we like or is it what gets our 1023 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,560 Speaker 1: attention or what is going on? Well, and this raises 1024 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: questions too. I mean, it makes me think about about 1025 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: deer hunters, you know, which you can relate to having 1026 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,280 Speaker 1: grown up uh in the South in Tennessee because it 1027 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,600 Speaker 1: was not a deer hunter myself, but nor I have 1028 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,840 Speaker 1: known many. Yeah, and there's a it's sometimes tricky I 1029 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,080 Speaker 1: think for for people who aren't affiliated with that culture 1030 00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,600 Speaker 1: or haven't really given it much thought to to understand. 1031 00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,200 Speaker 1: But there is a love for nature, and you're gonna 1032 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,120 Speaker 1: love for deer, I think with with a lot of 1033 00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,400 Speaker 1: maybe even most maybe all deer hunters. You know, there's 1034 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 1: a and there's this at times kind of difficult to 1035 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,800 Speaker 1: understand reverence for the deer. You know, you see like 1036 00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,680 Speaker 1: deer stickers on people's car and the trophies of of 1037 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,920 Speaker 1: their heads, um, you know, hung in their homes almost 1038 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,160 Speaker 1: with a like a religious zeal, almost like it's some 1039 00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,440 Speaker 1: some ancient uh you know antler god. Well, I mean 1040 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,840 Speaker 1: it mimics the behavior of our ancient ancestors. Who would 1041 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,960 Speaker 1: you who might, in some kind of religious way take 1042 00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,680 Speaker 1: pieces of an animal that they had killed primarily for 1043 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,920 Speaker 1: material resources. You know, you'd want its meat, you'd want 1044 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 1: its hide for clothing or something like that. But what 1045 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,200 Speaker 1: do you do with the antlers? They become some kind 1046 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,280 Speaker 1: of religious artifact, your tools. Yeah, all right, Well what 1047 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,760 Speaker 1: about part A that innate part? Right? Then this is 1048 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 1: another important part. So this means that biophelic tendencies are 1049 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,920 Speaker 1: are not learned through culture, but they're inherited biologically. And 1050 00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,520 Speaker 1: this would generally be accepted to mean that they had 1051 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,480 Speaker 1: adaptive value in the past, right, they served us some purpose, 1052 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:43,520 Speaker 1: and so we adapted to favor them. And there's not 1053 00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,920 Speaker 1: always agreement on what form these adaptive mechanisms take, what 1054 00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,920 Speaker 1: whether they stem from the same general mechanism, or what 1055 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,200 Speaker 1: their relative importance is. So the authors reformulate the hypothesis 1056 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 1: to fit all the nuances they've just brought in, and 1057 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,400 Speaker 1: it becomes there is a set of genetic predispositions of 1058 00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:07,400 Speaker 1: different strength, involving different sorts of affective states toward different 1059 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,360 Speaker 1: kinds of lifelike things. You can see the problem here, right, 1060 00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,400 Speaker 1: that this is becoming so broad as to accommodate almost anything, 1061 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,400 Speaker 1: and it becomes really hard to falsify since there's just 1062 00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 1: so much wiggle room in that in that definition of 1063 00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,040 Speaker 1: the proposition, and it creeps more towards just a pure 1064 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:28,200 Speaker 1: ethos or philosophy as opposed to something you can scientifically 1065 00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,560 Speaker 1: test for. Right. Uh Now, to be fair to the 1066 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,960 Speaker 1: biophelia theorists, the authors point out that this could be 1067 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,680 Speaker 1: a sort of unreasonably broad definition. Uh. That's an artifact 1068 00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:40,680 Speaker 1: of the fact that they're trying to synthesize the work 1069 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,520 Speaker 1: of different researchers working within the biophelia framework, and that 1070 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,640 Speaker 1: it's possible for one individual scientist maybe to have a tighter, sturdier, 1071 00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,400 Speaker 1: more testable version of the hypothesis, though the authors don't 1072 00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,479 Speaker 1: really seem to favor any of the particular ones they've 1073 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,480 Speaker 1: come across. But if so, I think what they're thinking 1074 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,120 Speaker 1: needs to happen is that biophelia theorists should identify the leaner, 1075 01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:08,280 Speaker 1: more specific hypothesis and unify their experiments underneath it. They 1076 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,720 Speaker 1: also they attack some of the specific evidence given for 1077 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,480 Speaker 1: the common legs of the biophilia hypothesis, for example, the 1078 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:20,440 Speaker 1: savannah preference hypothesis, the idea of us loving companion animals 1079 01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,920 Speaker 1: and are quote vegetated settings. You know that we surround 1080 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,600 Speaker 1: ourselves with potted plants and things like that, even though 1081 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:30,120 Speaker 1: there's no apparent material reason or benefit for doing so. 1082 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,800 Speaker 1: And whether or not these criticisms of the lines of 1083 01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,520 Speaker 1: supporting evidence are correct, I'm somewhat persuaded by their criticism 1084 01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:41,920 Speaker 1: of the biophilia framework definition uh, and at the same time, 1085 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,200 Speaker 1: I still feel persuaded by something about the general idea 1086 01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,840 Speaker 1: um Like I I do feel this urge to connect 1087 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,480 Speaker 1: with nature in some sense and in the same way 1088 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,320 Speaker 1: I was talking about Mars. Obviously, I think life commands 1089 01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 1: our attention in a way that non living matter really 1090 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,960 Speaker 1: does not seem to, even if it's not of immediate 1091 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,000 Speaker 1: relevance to our survival or something like that. But I 1092 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,520 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe this could be culturally learned. I'm open 1093 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,920 Speaker 1: to that possibility. So I'm somewhere in the middle on biophilia. 1094 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:16,280 Speaker 1: I find it intuitively persuasive, but I also recognize that 1095 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,640 Speaker 1: there could be a lot of problems with how it's 1096 01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,600 Speaker 1: framed as a scientific proposition, and maybe it needs to 1097 01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:26,320 Speaker 1: be narrowed down and made more specific and more falsifiable. Yeah, 1098 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:30,960 Speaker 1: on a rational um level, I'm I'm, I'm, I think 1099 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm right there with you. But then if I if 1100 01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,120 Speaker 1: I look at it more emotionally, you know, and uh, 1101 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:40,920 Speaker 1: and you know, philosophically, I guess I tend to decide 1102 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:46,120 Speaker 1: with biophilia, especially since I my son is so biophilic. 1103 01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,160 Speaker 1: You know, he's just he loves animals so much, like 1104 01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:54,280 Speaker 1: he's not interested in cars or trucks or superheroes, but 1105 01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,800 Speaker 1: it's just it's just animals. He wants to draw animals, 1106 01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,600 Speaker 1: he wants to his the toys he has are generally 1107 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,880 Speaker 1: animal related. He needs to see animals. And and I 1108 01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,760 Speaker 1: do pick that apart, and I think, well, how much 1109 01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:07,760 Speaker 1: of this is you know, something that we have have 1110 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,040 Speaker 1: nurtured in him? How much of this is just you know, 1111 01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,320 Speaker 1: has to do with his you know, with with nature 1112 01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,120 Speaker 1: itself and something out of our hands. Um, yeah, Like 1113 01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,440 Speaker 1: where does it come from? Is it? Is it biophilic 1114 01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,440 Speaker 1: and just a mirror like learnable sense or is it 1115 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,600 Speaker 1: something deeper, something that that does have an origin in 1116 01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,360 Speaker 1: his genes? So here's the real question. The thing we 1117 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,320 Speaker 1: need to test for is we need to completely remove 1118 01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:39,520 Speaker 1: some human test subjects from all culture and put them 1119 01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,520 Speaker 1: on another planet and never communicate them with them at all, 1120 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,600 Speaker 1: except we put some hidden cameras in and we give 1121 01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:49,640 Speaker 1: them the opportunity to either live in a in a 1122 01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:53,400 Speaker 1: in a sterile environment that satisfies all their material needs 1123 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,000 Speaker 1: and gives them uh, food and entertainment and stuff like that, 1124 01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,560 Speaker 1: or an environment that's full of house plants and cats 1125 01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:05,720 Speaker 1: and dogs and uh and gardens and flowers and access 1126 01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,920 Speaker 1: to walks in the woods. If they would go for 1127 01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 1: the ladder, it does raise the question why do they 1128 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,720 Speaker 1: want that? What? What is telling them to do that 1129 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,880 Speaker 1: instead of just go to the place that meets all 1130 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:22,760 Speaker 1: their material needs. You know, in discussing like sci fi 1131 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,640 Speaker 1: scenarios here I can't help but but look back on 1132 01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:30,560 Speaker 1: the fabulous Bruce Dern movie Silent Running. Oh yeah, where 1133 01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,040 Speaker 1: he's trying to save the plants. Yeah, and he's yeah, 1134 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,360 Speaker 1: this is the situation in this movie. It's a great movie. 1135 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 1: See it if you if you haven't. But Bruce Dern 1136 01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:43,720 Speaker 1: basically plays like the the last biophilic human in our civilization. 1137 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,880 Speaker 1: Like the forests of Earth are gone and they're only 1138 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:52,760 Speaker 1: maintained within these giant biospheres aboard a series of they're 1139 01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:54,840 Speaker 1: not spaces, they're space ships, but they're kind of just 1140 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,480 Speaker 1: in orbit and uh. And then the ruling comes up, 1141 01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,480 Speaker 1: the orders come up that they need to sine and 1142 01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,160 Speaker 1: detonate all of the forests. Bruce Durn's character goes rogue 1143 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,520 Speaker 1: and uh and you know, takes off towards Saturn with 1144 01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,720 Speaker 1: the last forests of Earth. It's the adult version of 1145 01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:16,360 Speaker 1: the lorax Y. He speaks for the trees um but yeah, 1146 01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,440 Speaker 1: it in that case, like he is that that's a 1147 01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,680 Speaker 1: vision of a humanity that has lost its biophilia that 1148 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:25,160 Speaker 1: has drifted so far from it that they no longer 1149 01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,280 Speaker 1: feel and it's any attachment, and they no longer recognize 1150 01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,560 Speaker 1: the value of the natural world. Concrete, plastic, and steel 1151 01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,960 Speaker 1: environments are good enough. Yeah, yeah, like cubes of food 1152 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,560 Speaker 1: as opposed to the stuff that Bruce Durn's character is growing. 1153 01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:39,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of my intuition. I just can't 1154 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,160 Speaker 1: see us ever being cool with that. I just can't. 1155 01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,880 Speaker 1: But you know, maybe it's hard to it's hard to 1156 01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,800 Speaker 1: do an experiment to really test that. But maybe somebody 1157 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: will come up with a good way. So my my 1158 01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:56,240 Speaker 1: outlook on biophilia now is I recognize their problems with 1159 01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,400 Speaker 1: the framework, but but I think it could be salvaged. 1160 01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,000 Speaker 1: I think people could come up with a with a leaner, 1161 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:07,000 Speaker 1: more falsifiable version of the hypothesis and test the dickens 1162 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 1: out of it. All. Right, Well, there you have it, biophilia. 1163 01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,840 Speaker 1: Hopefully we provided a nice introduction to this if you 1164 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,240 Speaker 1: weren't familiar with it, uh and and and if you 1165 01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,720 Speaker 1: were familiar with it, we uh we helped remind you 1166 01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,000 Speaker 1: about some of the I think some of the important 1167 01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,240 Speaker 1: tenants of it. You know, certainly some of the potential 1168 01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,160 Speaker 1: problems with it, but also I think the overall positive 1169 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:34,640 Speaker 1: message of biophilia as a you know, biodiversity focused view 1170 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:39,040 Speaker 1: of humans humanity's interaction with nature. Now, take your dog 1171 01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,800 Speaker 1: out in the woods and get some ticks. Yeah, yeah, 1172 01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,760 Speaker 1: get out there all right. Hey. If you want to 1173 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,200 Speaker 1: check out more episodes of Stuff about your Mind, head 1174 01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,120 Speaker 1: on over to stuff to Bowl your Mind dot com. 1175 01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,640 Speaker 1: That's the mother ship where you will find uh all 1176 01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:56,280 Speaker 1: of our podcasts attached in wonderful biospheres and you can 1177 01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:59,000 Speaker 1: you can listen to everything back to the very beginning. 1178 01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,400 Speaker 1: You can check out blog post videos as well as 1179 01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:07,680 Speaker 1: links out to our various social media accounts such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Humbler, 1180 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,600 Speaker 1: and who knows what else. And if you want to 1181 01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,160 Speaker 1: get in touch with us directly, you can email us 1182 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:26,080 Speaker 1: at blow the Mind at how staff works dot com 1183 01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,520 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does 1184 01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:52,600 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com