1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: Here we go, it could happen. Here's the podcast where 2 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: our intros get increasingly more segmented as you've realized we 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: have no idea who was going to do the intro. Yeah, 4 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: we've never, at no point during the existence of this 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: show or its growth, have we have we planned a 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: single thing or talked about how to do our jobs. 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: I've never. I don't even know who we who we are? 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: Um we are all meeting for the first time. UM. 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: I have that disease that Adam Sandler has or what's 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: her name has in that Adam Sandler movie where he 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: forgets she forgets everything every day. That's me. But Drew Barrymore, 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: is that that's right? That's right, Cherie, Drew Barrymore, So 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: I forgot, I forgot. I can just is it the 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,639 Speaker 1: same thing as a Memento, because that's all I can 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: think of. Yes, Adam Sandler and Memento. Yes, Adam Sandler's 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: Memento favorite movie. Well, we should probably introduce the episode today. Yeah, 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: so it's me. It's good for long and today we're 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: doing an episode that is uh you know, okay, we 19 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: we we've we've we've we've been forced feeding you really 20 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: grim stuff for a long time. So today we working 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: to an episode about southern colonialism and politics and board 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: games because that's also extremely cool and it does not 23 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: I mean, it is kind of depressing, but it involves 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: less doom than normal. And yeah, and with me talk 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: about this. That it is is Sharine or our wonderful 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: producer who also writes for us and is great and 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: we love thanks. I'm here. Yeah, and Robert who we 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: we tolerate. H Oh, that's nice to you. You shouldn't, 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: but we we do. Kyle, it's nice to meet you. Yeah. 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: And also we have a Kyle from Strange Matters. Yes, yes, 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: I'm Kyle Flannery. I'm my editor and co owner of 32 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: Strange Matters magazine. A. I guess we technically have now launched, 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: even with the print issues are not in people's hands, 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: a new leftist culture and politics magazine here to be 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: uh the consulting super nerd uh awesome. Yeah, I am 36 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: very sad. I mean, well, okay, I feel like weirdly 37 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: for a group of people that I'm in, I have 38 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: probably played the least board games of anyone here, which 39 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: is man. Yeah. So when when I was a kid, 40 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: my my board game was risk. Yeah, I did a 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: bunch of others. I played like he re Quest and 42 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: obviously Access and I'll say I say I played Access 43 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: and Allies. I set up Access and Allies boards many 44 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: a time and then gave up after like fifteen minutes 45 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: of playing it. I mean, that's that's how That's how 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: I played here. Request, Yeah, because I was request rule 47 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: book and I was like, I have no idea what's 48 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: going on here? But um no, specifically my fucking thing. 49 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: We would speech and debate eight tournaments, you know, because 50 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: when you do it, you're basically out for a whole weekend, 51 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: sometimes three days, sometimes like four, um, and you're basically 52 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: living in this school. But but you have like maybe 53 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: one or two hours of stuff per day and the 54 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: rest of the time you're just hanging around hearing how 55 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: your friends are doing. Is like, the competition goes on 56 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: and we would play epic specifically Lord of the Rings Risk. 57 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: We would have these massive risk games. Oh I have Yeah, 58 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: I have very good memories playing Lord of the Rings 59 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: risk with my friends. Yeah. I just had the normal 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: vanilla risk woll I was really missing out. I just 61 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: thinctly remember being at a bachelor party where h After 62 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: we finished all the normal bachelor party stuff, we crawled 63 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: back to the place where everybody's gonna camp out for 64 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: the night, and so we managed to convince one of 65 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: the other groomsmen that a game of risk when it 66 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: takes about an hour. I did, like, like it was 67 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: like three in the morning. Yeah, that's the wedding that day. Yeah, 68 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: it was like three on the day of the wedding. 69 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: It was an act of extraordinary cruelty. Anyway, didn't get married, 70 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: but he didn't take Comchotka, which is really key to 71 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: his his plans to assault North America. We we, we 72 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: shockingly did all make it to the wedding, which was 73 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: very much a risk, very much a risk. Yeah, very 74 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 1: much a risk. Uh yeah, that's why it's called that. Yeah, 75 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: I was I was smart enough to just go, no, 76 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to bed. I'm not doing three a m risk. 77 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: That's not happy. But yeah, I guess to kind of 78 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: back up in front a little bit of context about 79 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: why I kind of thought this was so worth talking about, 80 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: because I'm guessing that there's some readers at home who 81 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: are having a very common thought, which is, why why 82 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: are you talking about board games? Like who cares um. 83 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: And you know, I reminded a little bit of the 84 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: little tweet joke from a while ago of a couple 85 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: of years ago. Whm I talking about a little while 86 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: ago of on Star Trek they have the uh you know, 87 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: we've got there. What do they call that? The Holi Deck? Uh? 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: They about the Holida Deck. And but for some reason, 89 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: every week everybody's into some weird new board game. What 90 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: the hell's going on with that? Uh? And for the 91 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: people who aren't aware of this kind of sector of nerddom, 92 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: board games are actually massively more popular than they were 93 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: when I was a child, when osmlenules were young. And 94 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: a large part of that posh has actually been from 95 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: game developers themselves. The people who make your video games 96 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: absolutely fucking love board games. Uh. And it's for a 97 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: pretty simple reason, which is that you know, all of 98 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: the rules to the game. Board games are naked before 99 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: your eyes. You have you have stripped them down to 100 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: their their atomic components before you have done anything. And 101 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: that means that if you are interested in the art 102 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: of how a game works, uh, they're actually wonderful case 103 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: studies because you can see very quickly the way that 104 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: you move from what the mechanic is doing to like 105 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: what it means, Whereas in a video game that can 106 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: be a lot more obscure, it can be a lot 107 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: more complicated, uh, and it requires it can require a 108 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: lot of digging. You don't have to, you know, I 109 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,239 Speaker 1: am enough of a turb owner that I have broken 110 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: into the game's files for video Verius video games, I've 111 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: played and ripped out the code and looked at it 112 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 1: and been like, so that's the drop rate Because again 113 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: I'm a consulting turb owner here. But with the board game, 114 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: you don't have to do that. You just know all 115 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: of the rules up front. Uh, and so you know 116 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: if you're uh. And so that that's you know, reveal. 117 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: I can reveal a lot about what the designer's intentions are, 118 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: what they're communicating, and how that communication all works. So 119 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: that's that was kind of my start point here. Should 120 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: I just keep on going and explain what the hell 121 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: is going on with this article that I'm about? Yeah, 122 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I was going to note that the primary 123 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: board game played in Star Trek T and G was 124 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: was was Stratagema in the uh, the classic episode in 125 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: which data has to get really good at what is 126 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: basically holographic chess. Um. Yes, anyway, you talked about Star 127 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: Trek the Next Generation, So now that's that's all. It's good. 128 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: It's good that we didn't get into the awful board 129 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: games from d S nine. Oh god, yeah, there's I mean, 130 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: Strategy a M is pretty ridiculous and the episode is 131 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: very silly, but it's it's one of the more fun 132 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: data episodes episode from DS nine. I think it's really 133 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: considered the worst episode in all of d S nine. Yeah, yeah, 134 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: I mean there's I think the worst episode of Star 135 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: Trek the Next Generation is not the board game, but 136 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: it's the one where Riker and his dad fight in 137 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: what's basically American gladiator jud where they have to have 138 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: the bandit sticks that they have to fight the ultimate 139 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: martial art. Anyone, please continue? So so talk. So I 140 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: wrote this article that has is upcoming in publication. It's 141 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: going to be in our first issue, uh, And it's 142 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: about a particular trend that I noticed in board games 143 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: that there were a lot of board games that were 144 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: in terms of what was actually going on on the board, 145 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: they were incredibly violent, but they managed to make it 146 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: look like there was no violence going on. And so 147 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: I actually I am grateful for Robert for talking about 148 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: the games that you talked about, you know, access and 149 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: Allies and risk. Uh, even like Monopoly. These are games 150 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,239 Speaker 1: that are in was generally known as the American tradition, 151 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: where the goal is to eliminate all the opposing players 152 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: to be the last last one standing. Yes, like everything 153 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,559 Speaker 1: in American it is like one person wins by using 154 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: either violence or capitalism on the You you survive, you 155 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: outsurvive all of your opponents. Uh. Because that is what 156 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: we do in America. We just survive. We just pray 157 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: to God that there is somehow a tomorrow and by God, 158 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: they're going to take Comchatka. Political stance as an American 159 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: is that we will take the Comchatka Peninsula and we're 160 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: going to take Australia for those three extra armies that 161 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: Australia strategies. Uh. I feel like half the risk strategy, 162 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: half their experience I saw, were just waste to nerve 163 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: the Australia strategy. Uh. But um, in any event that 164 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: there's a European tradition uh. And one of the things 165 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: that has been a lot that's been very popular, has 166 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: made an absolute shitload of money over the last several years, 167 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: shipload being very relative because again, board games are pretty 168 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: small field compared to video games or gambling or booze 169 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: or something like that. Um, but even kind of the 170 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: dominant name in the game. And uh, one of the 171 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: kind of major conceits of this style game is you 172 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: don't elimit other players. All players. Any player who starts 173 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: the game at the table is going to end the 174 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: game at the table. You you never limited anybody, and 175 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: this is I think an admillable enough goal. Yeah, that's 176 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that's annoying about a lot of 177 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: games is like if you're trying to do a party 178 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: thing and people are getting eliminated. Although it can be fun, 179 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: if everyone is drinking at the same time and while 180 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: you play the game, people get eliminated and then get 181 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: drunker and heckle everyone else at the table. That's actually 182 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: not bad. That's actually not bad. I remember it being 183 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: like middle school in high school, where you just have 184 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: somebody sitting there bitterly four hours. Well, you try to 185 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: clean up a risk game. Um. Anyway, the one that 186 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: most people are probably the one that is the most famous, 187 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: infamous is sellers of kat Um, and that's kind of 188 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: what's my start point. Sellers of katan Is is a 189 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: board game where you play as European colonizers to a 190 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: almost uninhabited islands and almost uninhabited island, and you cannot 191 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: damage the other players directly. There is no mechanism for 192 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: doing this. You can block them off from building things, 193 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: you can never send him. I always go hard on 194 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: the roads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can block people with roads. 195 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: It's a very like it's kind of like like about 196 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: like a rivalry between developers almost. But one of the 197 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: things that that is kind of outstanding about this is that, uh, 198 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,599 Speaker 1: it's not a technically on inhabit island. There is a 199 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: quote robber that starts out on the island, uh, and 200 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: the robbert is capable of inflicting violence on the players 201 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: and it can be sort of controlled by the players. 202 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: And so the part that was again striking to me 203 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: about this is you can't directly you know, this would 204 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: actually be the right number players of me. Chris, Sherene, 205 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: and Robert were all sitting at a table will playing 206 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: out of katan I could not eliminate any of them. 207 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: None of them could eliminate me. We could not harm 208 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: each other directly. We can just negotiate with each other, 209 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: we can trade with each other, but there's still ultimately 210 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: a winner. And uh, you know this is if you 211 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: are willing to make some some kind of specific historical 212 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: amnesia about how colonials am actually operated, where you know, 213 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: like wars of colonial aggression also included like wars in 214 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: Germany like the Seven Years War, or you know, the 215 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: wars of Spanish succession. We're all happening at the same time, 216 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: but you can, you know, it can be viewed as 217 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: similar to that. And again it has this explicit theming, 218 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: and that is I do think that those things, those 219 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: things are dealvetailing together, right that the only people who 220 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: are real people are the colonizers. The colonized are non agentic. 221 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: They're just set. They're they're they're setting um. And the 222 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: more you think about it, it's just it's just kind 223 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: of messed up. It's it's just kind of it's kind 224 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: of messed up. And I do think it's kind of 225 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: interesting that, h the game doesn't really say this very explicitly, right, um. 226 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: And I know, I know there's going to be somebody's 227 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: going to say, oh, you know the game says rob 228 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: or it doesn't say Native American. How can you know? 229 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: It's like, come on, man, if you watched a movie 230 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: where there was some there was a group of people 231 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: in the movie who were portrayed as violent and incapable 232 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: of acting on their own, and all of these racist tropes, 233 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: even if they were not played by Native American actor, 234 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: even if they didn't use an explicit Native American references. 235 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: If all of the good guys are people who dispossessed 236 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: this person, you know what's going on. People don't look 237 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: at the tempest and see Caliban and go this person 238 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the Americans that yeah, yeah, 239 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: uncivilized like civility or like civilians in general. They come 240 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: from somewhere else and they inhabit the place. But yeah, 241 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: you're right, like just like Columbus discovered America, the natives 242 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: are based like it's it's it's a blank slate as 243 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: far as white settlers are concerned, and like the positionality, 244 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: like like the game is very explicit about who is 245 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: a settler and who is not. Right, the settlers are 246 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: you and everyone else playing the game, and then you 247 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: have the other person who's on the island who got 248 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: here before you? And it's like, yeah, I mean the 249 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: name is pretty blunt, like you are, like you know, 250 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: there's no I don't know. It's it's very it's very 251 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: hard to evade. And you know, like you can see 252 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: the art from the game, like it's all white people. Uh, 253 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's kind of interesting cause in the 254 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: first edition printing they're all kind of medieval, but in 255 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: later editions they're like colonial America. Like it's I don't 256 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: think it's like it requires some very deliberate uptuseness to 257 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: miss that this is what's going on. Um. And uh 258 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: So anyway that that has um that was that was 259 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: released like twenty something years ago. Uh. I find it 260 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: very funny that settlers of Katan managed to win games 261 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: with the Year awards in both two thousand and five. 262 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: Like it hasn't changed, mud, I don't know. Yeah, those 263 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: those are different years, Like what's going on? Definitely? Yeah, 264 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: they did add boats. They did add boats. That's true. 265 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: You're not you're not wrong about you don't. You don't 266 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: you don't have boats? Come on, that's true. Actually, it's funny. 267 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: My neighbors have a boat. I do not have a 268 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: boat because I'm a regular person who doesn't have lived 269 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: next to a lake. M Oh yeah, yeah, I also 270 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: do not have a boat. So yeah, I briefly had 271 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: a commute to work that I could have kayaked, but 272 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: I don't know to kayak. That's New York baby. I 273 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: developed a desire to have a boat last year because yeah, 274 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: I was in Spain and I met a Spanish guy 275 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: with a boat, and that does seem like the life. 276 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: But that's neither you're You're You're horrible descend into turning 277 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: into some sort of Hemmingway adjacent character. Yeah, just just 278 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: I mean it is. It is nice to be drunk 279 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: on about. It's also very expensive to have about, So 280 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: maybe I'll get drunk on an inflatable raft instead. I 281 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: just get a sunfish and just flip it over every 282 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: thirty seconds. Um, the working man's boat. Yeah, the working 283 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: man's boat. Um. But yeah, and uh so so from there, 284 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: I kind of what has happened is unsurprisingly that, you know, 285 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: board games are actually kind of a summit demographic art 286 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: form compared to video games, because all you really needed 287 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: some paper, Like really, that's all you need? You need 288 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: some paper? Uh, and you can make a board game. Uh, 289 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: if you have tabletop simulator, do you just need tabletop simulator, 290 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: You're already done, like uh, and then you just need 291 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: to be able to bully people into play testing your game. 292 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: And that's really the hard part. Uh. But you know, 293 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: so this means that, you know, people will iterate on 294 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: things pretty quickly. You know, so very like fan fiction environment, 295 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: people will will iterate rather quickly on your ideas and 296 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: develop them further. Um. And so I looked through some 297 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: of the other games that I've played and liked, and uh, 298 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, I actually tend to like pretty much all 299 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: the games that I studied. Splendor is the one that 300 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: is very fun, very casual, very easy, and it just 301 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: says this art that bugs me, this art that really 302 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: bugs me where it's about being a gem trader. And 303 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: it's very much seems to be based on Renaissance Italy 304 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: or like renaissance on TWERP you know this and m 305 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: for some reason, like you don't see people in minds. 306 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: It's very weird. All of the there will be pictures 307 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: of minds. It's like, okay, you bought this emerald mind 308 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: and there's like nobody there, which is very weird because 309 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: I have seen pictures of pre industrial I've seen pictures 310 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: of minds from the nineteen eighties, which is firmly industrial, 311 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: where there are thousands of people you can barely see 312 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: the ground, you know, thousands of people everywhere. You know, 313 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: mining is very labor intensive. Um, you only start seeing 314 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: mining become kind of like capital intensive, like very recently, 315 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: and even then only really in the United States and 316 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: a couple of other countries. Germany obviously uses very capital 317 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: intensive mining. Everywhere else it's very very labor intensive, but splendor. 318 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: They won't show you the people doing the mining, but 319 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: they will show you the people short sorting the gems, 320 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: which is just skipping the slavery part exactly, exactly the 321 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: part they're skipping. Yeah, it's even today, like you ignore 322 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: what your how your cell phone is made, right, You're 323 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: just like you're glossing over the unflattering parts and going 324 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: straight to making a gym. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're you're 325 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: going straight to you know, I've I've you know, I've 326 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: got my my pretty purple cell phone, you know, and 327 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: the the part where you know, there was yeah, pretty 328 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: much of war in the Congo fought over it, and 329 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: then they had to install suicide nets in China gets 330 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: completely glossed over and all that stuff goes into this phone. 331 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: But uh, you know, to me, it's just kind of 332 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: a necessary hunk of plastic and metal for surviving in America. Um, 333 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: And I you know, I'm not entirely I don't want 334 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: to be too hard on the designers here. It's very 335 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: like there's a part of me that wants to be 336 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: and there's a part of me that wants to be 337 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: kind of forgiving and being like do you really want 338 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: to be playing this like fun casual game and like 339 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: be confronted with slavery. Uh, But at the same time, 340 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: like but yeah, you you really try to have it 341 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: both ways here, Like this is like I don't make 342 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: the game about something actually fun, not yeah, not something 343 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: that well. I mean there are there and there are 344 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: people who do that. You know, It's like not that 345 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: hard to find people like making games about like theme 346 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: parks or like haunted houses or utopian or like like 347 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: weird like utopian arcologies and stuff like that. Like people 348 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: make these things. But like so this, uh, this colonialism 349 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: keeps on like coming back, and part of that, you know, 350 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: part of that is I guess like all sci fi 351 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: is kind of colonialist. But wait before we go, do 352 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: you know what else keeps coming back? You know what? 353 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: Tell me what? Sure? You capitalism? It's time for an 354 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: ad break and there's still more capitalism. But that's true, 355 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: that's true different capitalism. Yeah, right now we're we're in 356 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: like more early capitalism. And uh so the the game 357 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: that like really stuck in my cra all the weirdest 358 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: and uh, I might end up reading a quote out 359 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: from here. I'm sorry for being an incredibly irritating person 360 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: and doing that as a game called Mombassa. Um, and uh, 361 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: Mombassa is so aggressive about how colonialist it is. It 362 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: is so so aggressive. The premise of the game is 363 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: that you are adventurers in the Scramble for Africa, and 364 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: the goal is to be the player who retires the richest. Uh. 365 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: And the ways in which the mechanics of this game 366 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: are messed up, uh, the part of the mechanics that 367 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: I will say is genuinely clever. And if they hadn't 368 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: made it about the Scramble for Africa, I would have 369 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: like no, I would just be like, yeah, cool. So 370 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: I still have to admit that this is this as 371 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: cool is that you start out working for a different 372 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: joint stock company. But anybody can buy shares in anybody 373 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: else's joint stock company. So the best strategy is to 374 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: buy somebody else's company and then they make the company 375 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: valuable and you contribute as little as possible. Free rider problem. 376 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: You know, the classic of game theory that the liberal 377 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: economists fucking love talking about. Uh. Great thing to do 378 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: with the game. But the way you make your company 379 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: valuable is like it's it's pillaging Africa. Like like it's 380 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: pillaging Africa, and it's it's very very weird, Like there's 381 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: you have this map of Africa in front of you, 382 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: and the map of Africa has valuable things in it has, 383 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: you know, diamonds that you can pick up. It has 384 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: like there are books, which is unclear if that represents 385 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: Like you write an adventure novel like King Solomon's Minds, 386 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: or you write a naturalist guide, or you write an ethnography, 387 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: but you're writing some sort of book that is based 388 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: on how you despoiled the African continent. Uh. And what 389 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: what always struck me is so weird is that the 390 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: territory is just when you enter the territory. You just 391 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: take everything, you just you just pillage it. It's not 392 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: like territory that you hold and really make more productive. 393 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: You don't develop it. There's at least it's honest about 394 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: that to a certain extent. At least it's honest that 395 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: like the Europeans were lying about any of that development, 396 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: civilizingnition ship like that they were there to steal um 397 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: and But what is so so weird to me about 398 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: it is that like there's there's no resistance, there's no 399 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: risk to expanding across the continent, there's no negotiation. The 400 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: only other characters at all are the other players, the 401 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: other Europeans. Uh. You know this continent that at the 402 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: time had hundreds of millions of people, uh, many of 403 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: whom had legitimate kingdoms that in some parts of Africa 404 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: where you know, had full gunpowder militaries just totally glossed over, 405 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: just totally not not mechanically represented at all. Um. Well, 406 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: it's like they're only there, they're portraying the only future 407 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: that that is possible. Like you know what I mean, 408 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: this is how you become a civilization. There's no other 409 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: that there's one path um I mean, is there is 410 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: one path to being a civilization, and it does involve 411 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: a lot of taking other people ship. To be fair, No, 412 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: I said that ironically, Robert, I know, I said in 413 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: their mind there is one path, yes, but I do 414 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: feel like I've got to read this out from the 415 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: rule book because it was like so hypopic to me. 416 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: This is this is from the rule book. This is 417 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: the start of the rule book, the opening quote. In 418 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: one Bassa players are choir shares of chartered companies based 419 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: in Mombasa, Cape Town St. Louis and Cairo and spread 420 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: their tailing pasts throughout the African continent in order to 421 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: earn the most money. Chartered companies were associations formed for 422 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: the purpose of exploration, trade, and colonization, which links them 423 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: inextricably to a very dark shafter in human history, global colonialism. 424 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: This period rough lasted roughly from the fifteenth century to 425 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: the middle of twentieth century and is associated with exploitation 426 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: and slavery. Although Mombasa is loosely set within this timeframe, 427 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: it is not a historical simulation is a strategy game 428 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: with an economic focus that roughly refers to historical categories 429 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: and places them in a fictional setting. The exploitation of 430 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: the African continent and its people is not explicitly depicted 431 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: within the gameplay. If you want to learn more about 432 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: the underlying history, we recommend the following read History of 433 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: Modern Africa Each hundred Depressent by Richard J. Reid uh 434 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: end quote. So they fucking new, but like they fucking 435 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: knew that there is some evil, evil ship that they 436 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: have made into a game, and they want you to 437 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: know that they knew that you that you were going 438 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: to call them. It's like making like a candy Land 439 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: version set in the Congo where you have to collect 440 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: hands or rubber and being like, yeah, you can read 441 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: a book about this if you want. Yeah, this is 442 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: like it's such a cop out. It's like it's so bizarre, 443 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: Like it's so bizarry not how many people even read 444 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: this stuff, like like generously. One person I've ever before 445 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: reads the rule book when you're wearing a board game, 446 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: like like very generously. Like I'm just a huge nerd 447 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: who likes reading this stuff, and I would just like 448 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: read this in my jaw was just like holy shit, 449 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: I think you could try. It might even be wisdom 450 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: and trying to like make a board game about the 451 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: Scramble for Africa that's like framed in like a kid 452 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: friendly way, but is also like very blatantly horrific. It's 453 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: just like the kind of thing that if you think 454 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: about it ten seconds, I was like, oh, we're just 455 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: like subjugating and massacreing people. But it's also like the 456 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: the art style is like themed off of candy Land 457 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: or some sort of ship like maybe, but even then 458 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: you're probably more likely to just get people enjoying it 459 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: on ironically than you are to actually convince anybody to 460 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: read about the Scramble for Africa. Well yeah, yeah, I mean, 461 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: and well it's actually kind of interesting because there's a 462 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: there's like a good tradition of like making like kid 463 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: friendly appearing things that are actually quite horrifying if you 464 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: think about them for more than two seconds. And yeah, 465 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: well Monopoly for example. And I mean, I was going 466 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: to take a slight turn away from board games. I 467 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: grew up with red the Red Wall books. Yes, yeah, 468 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: the Red Wall books. Like even though like stoats are 469 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: not a race of people in real life, they are 470 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: a type of weasel, uh holy ship, those books managed 471 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: to be incredibly racist. It really is racist against like 472 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: different types of weasel. But uh, you know they portrayed 473 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: this is this very cute see world of you know, animals, 474 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, noise and badgers and stuff, and they're just 475 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: committing genocide left and right. It's just portray is like 476 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: totally okay, it's just like someone who has no idea 477 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. This is crazy. Yeah, popular children's 478 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: series and like the eighties and nineties, you know, I 479 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: read this book. It was like, yeah, it's like you 480 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: flipped back and forth between like, yeah, here is Martin 481 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: the mouse and he's the hero, and also he's eating 482 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: all of this really nice food and then also we 483 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: must exterminate like entire species. It's buck wild. It is insane. Uh. 484 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: The Red Wall Feast spot, by the way, it's like 485 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: a really good Twitter follow. We're just post excerpts from 486 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: the food descriptions. Those are incredible. Um. But the reason 487 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: why I kind of made that turn is that one 488 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: of the games I considered that I actually really liked 489 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: is uh something of a post something of an anti 490 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: colonial game called root uh. And this was part of 491 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: the part of what I was kind of witnessing over 492 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: as I was studying these is that there is a 493 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: bit of a discourse, a bit of a development over time. 494 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: Uh and uh. Two of the games that I highlighted, 495 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: Roots and Spirit Island are kind of are are fairly 496 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: anti clonial and Root is a kind of horrifying game 497 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: but with very cute see appearances. You know, you play 498 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: as like mice and cats and and birds. Uh. And 499 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: the birds are like like horrifying aristocrats. Uh, like like 500 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: you're like a feudal military dictatorship. The cats are like 501 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: trying to turn the entire force into like a giant 502 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: woodcutting factory and like subjugate everybody else under the boot 503 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: heel of like industrial capitalism. And you can play as 504 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: just like the concept of revolution, I guess, like like 505 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: there's a woodlanda lions who win the game by like 506 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: provoking revolts of the civilian population to overthrow the other two. Uh. 507 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: It's it's very weird. It's a very very violent game 508 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: by by comparison, it's very hard to lonato player in it. 509 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: But it was kind of interesting to me to see 510 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: that like you can do it's kind of almost the 511 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: the exact opposite, where it is like a lot of 512 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: like it doesn't have it has this very obviously horrifying 513 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: and graphically violent mechanics, uh, you know, revolutions and subjugation, 514 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: but with like the characters look cute, like all the 515 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: all the character art is very cute. Um. You know, 516 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: you've got like a little mice like making pungee traps 517 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: and stuff in the It's very odd. Yeah, I kinda 518 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: I kind of jumped a little bit ahead here, but 519 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: I don't know that we need to go through the 520 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: everything I did in this in this paper that's a 521 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: little bit boring, and also we need to leave things 522 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: for the readers. And actually Root is uh a little 523 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: bit based on a game series that I think would 524 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: be particularly appealing to uh, to Robert uh and possibly 525 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: the listeners. There's a company called GMT Games. Anybody else 526 00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: heard of them? These guys are interesting continue tea games 527 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: make games like Kuba Libre, a four player asymmetric warfare 528 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: about the Cuban Revolution. UM and of ways, yes yes 529 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: multiple I one once as the Mafia, which was an 530 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: interesting side to play in the UM an interesting and 531 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: interesting series of interest to have. Uh. You know, I 532 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: could not build an army for ship. I just had 533 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: to count on the fact that other people didn't think 534 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: it was worth destroying casinos because they're too busy trying 535 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: to stamp out revolutionaries um and or their revolutionaries trying 536 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: to stamp out fascists. And it was a they're a 537 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: very the reason why I think they're very weird companies 538 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: that you know, I think they're They are games like 539 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: Kuba Libre, Twilight Struggle, A Distant Plane, which is about 540 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: the war in Afghanistan. But they also are like these 541 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: guys are like Quantico psychos. Uh, they actually they are 542 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: the guys who make the actual four real war games 543 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: that the Pentagon you yeah, yeah, Quantico if you're not 544 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: up on things, is like the part of the Virginia 545 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: area kind of a suburb of d C where all 546 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: of the all of like the Fed FEDS live. Like 547 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about like border patrol FEDS or ship 548 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: I'm talking like, uh, fucking CIA, motherfucker's Capital f Feds. Yeah. 549 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: Isn't the CIA is like training facility there? Yes, they have, 550 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: and I think at the FBI also has a facility 551 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: in quantity the Capital f Feds. All the agents are there. Yeah. Yeah, 552 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: don't think of like like your inspectors here. Yeah, I 553 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: mean look well. And also just like we're not primarily 554 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: talking about like the door kickers, We're talking about the 555 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: people who are like the doing the really scary ship. 556 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: You know. I will say, though, if if we gave 557 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: Osha like CIA powers, the world would be in an 558 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: obviously better place. I think we hand them the nukes. 559 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: I think we hand them the nukes and a mandate 560 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: to use them. If purity procedures aren't followed. Not cleaning 561 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: your counter after using chicken, that's the end of Detroit. 562 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: You know, there goes San Francisco. Uh, you didn't clean 563 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: your food cart well enough? You know, pretty soon collective 564 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: of punishment, but just for workplace violations. Yeah, collective punishment 565 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: for like basic sanitation violations. I mean, in a way, 566 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: not following sanitation does lead to collective punishment, whether or 567 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: not you have a federal enforcement for it or not. 568 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: That's right. He's the deployment of our nation's nuclear assets. Uh. 569 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: Do you know what else is collective punishment? Capitalism? Yes, 570 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,479 Speaker 1: listening to ads? Yeah, so let's all endure it together. 571 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: We've been collectively punished. Solidarity all all all of us 572 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: who must endure advertising. Yes, um, yes, I have been 573 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: I've been rambling a lot, and UM, yeah, like I said, 574 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: I find this this question of who gets to be 575 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: an agent to be very important. Who who gets to 576 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: be a player? Who is even given the choice of winning? 577 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: You know if if you're not a player, you're completely 578 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: written off from the possibility of ever winning. Um. And 579 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: you know this is something that like in in video games, 580 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: we've seen recurring debates around this, you know, like civilization 581 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: is an infamous one for this. You know, who even 582 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: gets to be a civilization? Um? Why are some civilization 583 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: civilizations and some city states and some barbarians? Um? And 584 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: you know it does uh, you know, it does shape 585 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 1: your thinking, you know. And there's there's games are very 586 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: valuable for how they create empathy. You know, a game 587 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: that can really immerse you can really teach you a 588 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: lot of very free, even powerful empathy for groups of 589 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: people that you might never have the chance to interact with. Ah. 590 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: And then when you keep on creating games that ask 591 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: you to empathize with the colonizers, mm hmm. Yeah, you 592 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: think it's just the normal way of things. This is 593 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: what this is what happens. This is the succession of 594 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: events that leads to humans yeah, this session of events 595 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: leads the humans. Those who do not participate simply die out. 596 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: Uh this is brainwashing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. It 597 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: is And I mean it's it's you know, you can 598 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: the same could be said of all culture. But you know, 599 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: I think it's worth being um informed in critical consumers UM. 600 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: And I mean I actually do you know? I actually 601 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, I know that you wanted this to be 602 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: an uplifting episode. And I'm going to be optimistic here. 603 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: I I you know, it's not just that we're talking 604 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: about stuftware. The stakes are not literal death. The stakes 605 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: are you know, getting mad at your friends overboard game. 606 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: But also I do think that, uh, we have seen 607 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: positive development of people take king of people looking at 608 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: these games. You know, there's a game developer who said 609 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: about some of the games who was playing, Uh, what 610 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: do the locals think about these colonizers, Like, it's pretty 611 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: rude that nobody's asking them and tried to design starting 612 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: from there. And I have some criticisms of how he 613 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: executed that, how well he executed on that vision. But 614 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is is that even just 615 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: through the sheer iteration of somebody looking at a game 616 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: like Settlers of Katan and going well, how can I 617 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: do this different? You know, I can't just release the 618 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: same game every single year. I need to do something new, 619 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: and even just a simple one of just reversing who 620 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: is the players simple enough, even that has been creating 621 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: some iteration in some some additional complexity, which and and 622 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: has caused people. I have seen people, you know, go 623 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: back and re examine. Even if they're not people who 624 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: have any sort of like education, any sort of formal 625 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: education in anthropology of post colonial theory, they will they'll 626 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: look at like, oh, yeah, I was playing this game 627 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: same where you're the colonize, and I played this other 628 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: game where they reverse the roles, and I was like, 629 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: that was the bad guys earlier. Yeah, I mean I 630 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: think portray the other side and maybe winning means you 631 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: kick them out or or destroy them. I would like 632 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: to see that play out versus that is Spirit Island. 633 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: That is what Spirit Island is, that the players cooperate 634 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: to destroy the colonizers or to terrorize them into abandoning 635 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: the island. Uh, weird game, weird game. I have some 636 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: I think there's some good execution in there. Some critics 637 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: and I've got some criticisms of it is my favorite, 638 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: but it does do some things a little bit well patronizing. 639 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 1: But um but yeah, like yeah, like that's that's something 640 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: I think is worth seeing and uh and I think 641 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: it's something that um Admittedly, maybe I just really enjoyed 642 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: this the space of the world because you know, if 643 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: you look at very mainstream video games, for example, kind 644 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: of bored of the same, like five feeling the same 645 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: five games get released every here, you know, there's some texture, 646 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: give me something new. But um, also, I think that 647 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: I think that the I think there's some cost for 648 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: optimism for people like critically examining the art that they're building, 649 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: the art that they're consuming, in the art that they're creating. 650 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: And I don't know that counting on that kind of stochastic, 651 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: bouncy ball randomness of people just kind of spontaneously going 652 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: what if we what if we uh played what if 653 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: we reverse the roles in Call of Duty? You know 654 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: what if we played the people living in the Fafollo, Well, 655 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: call of Duty is happening on in the background. Just 656 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: kind of on the randomness of that happening. Uh, might 657 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: not be as fast as people want. I wish, I wish. Oh. Yeah, 658 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: there was a game called I think it was I 659 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: think it was called This Is War. Maybe it's called 660 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: This War of Mine. That's what it was. That's a 661 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: good game. That's a really well done game. Yeah. Yeah, 662 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: and there's I'm I'm I don't know. I'm I did 663 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: to see the future of all this stuff, and I'm 664 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: excited to see where people go with this. Well, Chris, 665 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: I have a question, why did you decide to even 666 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: bring on Kyle, Like what do you what what is 667 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: it about this topic that you think is prevalent today? What? 668 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: What what can we take away from this? Well? I 669 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: think I don't know. I think one of the things 670 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: that I got was reading the article is about like 671 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: one of the ways, like one of the things you 672 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: see in how set colonialism gets perpetuated, And I think, um, 673 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: why am I now forgetting the name of the Yeah, 674 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: declonization is not a metaphor talks about this a lot, 675 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: which Yeah, I'll talk about that another time someday. But 676 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: like one of the things that you get like immediately 677 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: is the sort of is that the settler move to innocence, 678 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: And that strikes me as like the sort of it's 679 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: the kind of like it's it's, it's the kind of 680 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: perspective that you see, I think running across all of 681 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: these board games, and I think it it is actually 682 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: really helpful to sort of you know, like the way 683 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: you break that and then the way you start to 684 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: get actually that actually looks like the colonization. It has 685 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: to start with people like actually like realizing what they're 686 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: doing and not being able to sort of like retreat 687 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 1: to this position of innocence and being sort of confronted 688 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: by it. And I think that like that that is 689 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: a place where media can actually like be very helpful 690 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: because you know, like most and most mostly like it's it's, it's, 691 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: it's almost always working in the opposite direction, right, But 692 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: it's something where you can actually have this sort of 693 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's a part of the cultural 694 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: spirit where you could like very like very easily put 695 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: someone into a role that is not the one that 696 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: they're normally doing and get them to like realize that 697 00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: like what they're doing is like fucked. So yeah, yeah, yeah, 698 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: I mean I could say the first when I was 699 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: in high school and played playing sellers in for the 700 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: first time, I didn't realize the like it took me 701 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: a while to understand that, like, oh, I'm a colonial 702 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: list yeah, territory. Uh. And well because they yeah, they 703 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: present it as default innocence and also just like exciting too. 704 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: There's no there's no backstory to how you get the 705 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: wood or the ore or or anything else. You just 706 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: like somehow build a road, you somehow have a town. 707 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: There is no backstory as to who you're destroying in 708 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: the process. And I think it infiltrates in your mind 709 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: to the point where you subconsciously just deemed that as normal. 710 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: And it's it's definitely not unique, you know, it's definitely 711 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: like it's only just another tendril of reinforcing stuff that 712 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: we hear from the rest of our culture so broadly 713 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: you know that that it's it's just this is just 714 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: one aspect, one expression, I should say, of how many 715 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: millions of different ways we get colonialism reinforced to us 716 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: as a normal, natural part of the world. And uh. 717 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: And you know, from cowboy movies to uh to just 718 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: like the way the New York Times will write about 719 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: who owns land and who's who has a who has 720 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: a viable claim on owning a piece of land. Uh. 721 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: All of that we get reinforced us in our fiction 722 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: are nonfiction every day. Um. I guess again that's part 723 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: of I guess why I was drawn to board games 724 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: in particular for this, because it's so transparent. You know, 725 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: it's so transparent, how all how the all the propaganda 726 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: works like it's not there's no movie magic. Yeah, yeah, 727 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: the rules are all there. It's it's pretty much. I 728 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: don't know, but yeah, but you you sympathized with and 729 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: I didn't call you, you empathize with the colonizer because 730 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: there who you're who you are. Yeah, you want to win, 731 00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: you want to win, you want to win. I'm very competative. Uh. 732 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: Um and and uh and you know, and they get 733 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: to and the people who may get to have this 734 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: kind of like discourse that this kind of badge of 735 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: like oh yeah, we made like the friendly board game. 736 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: You know, they're comparing themselves to you know, making Monopoly, 737 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 1: where like there's like a chance of a divorce happening 738 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: every time somebody finishes the game of Monopoly. Uh. And 739 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: you know, they get to porture themselves as the nice ones, 740 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, we're the nice ones because all 741 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: the people who were being mean to don't get a 742 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: vorce at all. I just can't believe we made a 743 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: game about paying rent, Like, I really cannot believe that. 744 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: I history of it because it's very funny. I skimmed 745 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: in your in your articles like about it a little bit. 746 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: But it was called something that was much more to 747 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: the point. What was it called the Landlord's Game? Excuse me, yeah, 748 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: the landlords Game by Elizabeth Maggie. She was a Georgiast 749 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: activist in the like early twentieth century. Close my mind, 750 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: fucking George just a whole well, I mean this monopoly, 751 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: Monopoly being the most relevant contribution of Georgism to world 752 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 1: history is somehow incredibly fitting. Let's all look away from it, 753 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 1: brutal the number one selling economics book of American history. 754 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: Because you're used to a very bad board game, I 755 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: can't say it's unfair, and I guess that that's really 756 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,359 Speaker 1: what I've got is that like it's I think it's 757 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: still I think it's very valuable to um be a 758 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: critical consumer um and um one. Bosston maybe went over 759 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: the line, but for the most part, these games haven't 760 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: like ruined my ability to enjoy them. If my friends 761 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 1: want to play a game slan, they might just get 762 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: an annoying lecture from me. But they're going to get 763 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,359 Speaker 1: annoying lecture from me anyway, it just would be about 764 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: something else. I mean, it's like any media. It's like 765 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: phil and TV or whatever. You're going to realize eventually 766 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,919 Speaker 1: that you should be conscious of what you're consuming. So yeah, 767 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: I'll still get into arguments about all those things, except 768 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: for except for podcasts. People should blindly consume our podcast well, 769 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, yes, podcasts are the only true 770 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: proletarian art form. That's right. That's right. As Karl Mark said, 771 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: listen to this podcast like can the subscribe share us 772 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: on Facebook? And then and then eventually one day podcast 773 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: will wither away into bolish itself. Yeah, that's right, that's right, 774 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: classic Marxist podcast theory. That's right, that's right. M is 775 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: that the episode? Well, Kyle, where can people find you? Yes? 776 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: I I personally am notoriously hard to find on the internet, 777 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: being a person who doesn't have any social media whatsoever. 778 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: Absolutely the right call. I I have been off of 779 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: Twitter for a couple of days. I'm taking a break. 780 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: And the best best decision you could make get away 781 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: from all our Our publication is at Strange Matters dot 782 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: co op. We worked hard to get that dot co 783 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: op registry. Uh. We just published on Thurs a couple 784 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,320 Speaker 1: of days ago. Uh, love as a verb in article 785 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: reviewing uh and um extrand expanding the possibilities of bell 786 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: Hooks All About Love two thousand books All about Love, 787 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: which is worth reading both the both the review and 788 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: the book. Yeah. I actually just finished it um four 789 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 1: hours ago. Yeah, I arned up for the first time 790 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: during the pandemic. It wash it in lightning. Read It's 791 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: in lightning read. Uh. We we tend to have a 792 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: lot of really insane economics stuff if you want to 793 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: like read some truly insane ship about money, about where 794 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: money comes from and what money is and what we 795 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: can do about money. Uh. We've oh boy, we've got 796 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: you covered. Uh we have. We have a profile of 797 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: Roberts where we have rendered him as a Baron Munchausen 798 00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: very flatteringly. Uh. A really wonderful review of three different 799 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: cyberpunk works by the wonderful anti fascist author Elizabeth sanderfor UM. Yeah, 800 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: so please come come check us out at Strange Matters 801 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: dot co op. If for we are. We are taking 802 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: new writers all the time. Uh, and we've got submission 803 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 1: guidelines on there. And uh, if you want to personally 804 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: send me hate mail for besmirching the good honor of 805 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: settlers of Katan, I can be reached at Kyle at 806 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 1: Strange Matters dot co op. Oh, and we do have 807 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: a Twitter for the for the company. Yeah, what's your 808 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: what's the Twitter for the company? It is Strange Underscore 809 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: Matters perfectly, Thanks Kyle. Check out Strange Matters contribute to 810 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: their fundraiser. I can't I can't recommend doing anything on Twitter, 811 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: so I simply uh and thank you, thank you for 812 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,239 Speaker 1: having me on again. It's a it was a lovely time. Yeah, 813 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: absolutely all right again, as as as with every episode, 814 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: go with christ Kay. It could Happen here as a 815 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 816 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 817 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 818 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 819 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 820 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.