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Speaker 1: M M yeah. Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast

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Speaker 1: featuring conversations with industry leaders about the business of media

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Speaker 1: and entertainment. This is Shirley Halpern, executive editor of Music

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Speaker 1: for Variety, with a special episode that we're calling strictly

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Speaker 1: Music Business with Me Today. Is the chairman of Sony

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Speaker 1: Music Group, Rob Stringer, whoever sees the record labels Columbia,

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Speaker 1: r c A, Epic and Arista Records, as well as

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Speaker 1: Sony Music Publishing and The Orchard, and leads a staff

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Speaker 1: of more than five thousand employees around the world. A

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Speaker 1: music business life for if ever there was one, Rob

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Speaker 1: has spent his entire professional career working his way up

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Speaker 1: the ranks of the Sony system, seeing the industry evolved

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Speaker 1: through physical products, to downloads, to streams and whatever may

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Speaker 1: lay ahead. A native of the UK, Stringer moved to

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Speaker 1: New York in two thousand and six and has spent

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Speaker 1: the last fifteen years shaping Sony's recorded music business in

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Speaker 1: the US. As Chief executive of Sony Music Label Group

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Speaker 1: and later Columbia, he helped bring to the world a

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Speaker 1: slew of successful new artists, including Adele, Calvin Harris, Harry

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Speaker 1: Styles Him, J Cole, The Chain Smokers, and Tyler The Creator,

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Speaker 1: and he's also looked after such iconic acts as Beyonce,

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, Barbra Streisan, A C. D. C. Selene, Dion, Daft, Punk,

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Speaker 1: Shaw Day, and David Bowie, whose final album Black Star Columbia,

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Speaker 1: released in In his current role of Sony Music Group Chairman,

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Speaker 1: which he assumed in ten after three years as CEO

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Speaker 1: of Sony Music, Rob Stringer has met more than his

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Speaker 1: share of challenges, from making the right hires to see

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Speaker 1: the company's vision through to banking on talent and not

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Speaker 1: just hits, to segue into a subscription driven business, to

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Speaker 1: getting through a global pandemic and responding to the call

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Speaker 1: for social justice. We talked about these subjects and much more,

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Speaker 1: while also getting a sense of Rob's refreshingly British outlook

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Speaker 1: on things that are uniquely American, all this as borders

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Speaker 1: ceased to exist in this new global music economy. Afterwards,

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Speaker 1: stick around for a coda to this episode, a talk

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Speaker 1: with Grammy nominated mastering engineer Emily Lazar, who has worked

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Speaker 1: on four thousand albums since she started her career in

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Speaker 1: Emily has no fewer than ten projects and contention for

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Speaker 1: Grammy Awards, including three in the Album of the Year

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Speaker 1: category time Coldplay and Jacob Collier. Welcome back to Strictly Business.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Rob Stringer, chairman of Sony Music Group,

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Speaker 1: for the first ever addition of Strictly Music Business. Rob,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here, So so nice to

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Speaker 1: be on the first ever Strictly Music Business podcast. So

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk a little bit about your background

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Speaker 1: because you started out as a CPS records trainee and

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Speaker 1: then you got to feel your way around the different

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Speaker 1: departments and find the lane that best suited your skill set.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? Well, yeah, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you about that actually in context of we've actually

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Speaker 1: talked a lot about how that would work in the

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Speaker 1: new company, and that we need to make sure that

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Speaker 1: our employees move around the company more dramatically so they

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Speaker 1: get more experience of the bigger picture. And actually, I

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Speaker 1: think what mine was big picture by default. Really, I

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Speaker 1: started as a marketing graduate trainee, and you're talking about

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Speaker 1: this is the mid eighties when human resources was called personnel,

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Speaker 1: so it was like it's a different era and I

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Speaker 1: come off being a university social sectory University of London,

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Speaker 1: which was a very obvious way of going into the

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Speaker 1: music business in that era, and they mapped out this

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Speaker 1: journey for me for three weeks and then they just said, actually,

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Speaker 1: there you go. There's a three week training. Now, don't

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Speaker 1: set at someone's desk and try and be useful. And

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Speaker 1: I tried to be useful and tried not to be

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Speaker 1: like a sort of student brat. But the fact is

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Speaker 1: that I did go to like probably eight departments in

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Speaker 1: in that first month, which certainly told me as much

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Speaker 1: as what I didn't want to do as much as

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Speaker 1: what I did want to do and what I might

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Speaker 1: be suited to and what I didn't And the conclusion was,

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Speaker 1: which eventually came to pass, was that I would be

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Speaker 1: in marketing. But I knew straightaway I really want to

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Speaker 1: do A and R. So it took me about four years.

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Speaker 1: Once I had a good experience in marketing, I moved

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Speaker 1: into A and R because I knew that I needed

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Speaker 1: that training to do a different type of journey in

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Speaker 1: the music business. So the creative was calling you, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, marketing is obviously creative too, but I knew

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Speaker 1: that I had to dive into a more schizophrenic sort

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Speaker 1: of artistic pool to really be able to understand the

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Speaker 1: psyche of what the art form is we're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: You know, that job, it's quite lonely and odd because

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Speaker 1: it's quite subjective. And it may not be subjective now

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Speaker 1: with research and stats, which I'm sure you will talk

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Speaker 1: to me about, but the fact is then it wasn't that,

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Speaker 1: and it was gut reaction and you know, some information

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Speaker 1: like you would stand at the back of a club

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Speaker 1: and there would be a lot of people there and

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Speaker 1: you go, well, this must mean something. But it was

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Speaker 1: subjective in many ways. And and actually you are either

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Speaker 1: sort of the hero or the class clown, you know,

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Speaker 1: not that much in the middle. So that's the difficult

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Speaker 1: thing to deal with because your metrics success a blatantly obvious.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like diving at the deep end. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think maybe I would have had the same

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Speaker 1: pathway if I hadn't made that switch. I mean, it seems,

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Speaker 1: you know, now that we've had sixty years of major

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Speaker 1: labels being in existence, it seems that one thing is

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Speaker 1: abundantly clear, and that is that the leadership has to

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Speaker 1: have very strong in our chops is this as important

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Speaker 1: today as it was in the pre Internet era, because

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Speaker 1: you do have a mountain of data available to you

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Speaker 1: at any given moment. How do you sort of balance

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Speaker 1: guts and data Today? Obviously we dig deeper and deeper

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Speaker 1: the data. That process is now anything to get an edge,

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Speaker 1: anything to get a little bit more information, to to

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Speaker 1: look at something in a slightly more complex, unusual way,

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Speaker 1: to find something that meant something. That's all good, but

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Speaker 1: I'm as interested in once you get the artists or

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Speaker 1: the set of songs in the building, then you better

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Speaker 1: make sure you know what to do with it. There's

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Speaker 1: always been hits. There's always been one off its. There's

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Speaker 1: always been novelty hits. There's always been uh, there's always

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Speaker 1: been record sort of started somewhere. You've seen explosion. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in the centies and eighties in America, it would have

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Speaker 1: been a small radio station in Kansas playing something. They

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Speaker 1: played the record once and they got phones. This is

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Speaker 1: an incredibly sophisticated version of that. Really, we have to

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Speaker 1: maintain a balance between the data and the realities of

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Speaker 1: artistic development. As yet, some social media platforms have not

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Speaker 1: broken two records by an artist, for example, So therefore, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you've got to make you've got a platform, it

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Speaker 1: breaks the record when you go back to that platform.

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Speaker 1: Is the structural capability there to break the second song?

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily. We have young graduates and young people coming

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Speaker 1: into the business who have got great statistical capabilities, are

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Speaker 1: also a massive music fans, and if the balance is

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Speaker 1: on the tech, you want to get them to understand

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Speaker 1: the music as well. It's got to be a balance

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Speaker 1: from well, I think another thing that plays to your

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Speaker 1: advantage in place to my advantage as well, is being

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Speaker 1: just being of a certain age. Is that we do

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Speaker 1: straddle the pre internet world. We remember LPs. You have

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Speaker 1: actually not only lived through every format you know, physical format,

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Speaker 1: but you've worked every physical format, which I just think

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Speaker 1: you know is a huge advantage to being able to

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Speaker 1: run a global music company. You've seen it all, you

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Speaker 1: know the scenarios, what works, what doesn't, and you can

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Speaker 1: apply those things. I'm wondering, is there a through line

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Speaker 1: that applies to every evolution of physical media for music?

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Speaker 1: Is there something that has stayed the same from the

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Speaker 1: LP days of your youth in the seventies to today

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Speaker 1: with streaming and the world of music at your fingertips. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's a fifty year question. I think talent remains the same.

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Speaker 1: I'm running constantly to keep up with the changes. And

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Speaker 1: like you said, I think there's a certain period of

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Speaker 1: time where my upbringing in the business wasn't like a

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Speaker 1: pioneer in the fifties and sixties, but I had an

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Speaker 1: intimate knowledge of that era of music because I grew

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Speaker 1: up starting in the seventies. You know, I wasn't a

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Speaker 1: pioneer because there was people that boldly went where no

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Speaker 1: one else had gone before, whether it was on the

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Speaker 1: back of Elvis Presley or the Blues or the Beatles

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Speaker 1: or whatever it may be. That I didn't have that,

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Speaker 1: but I had enough to look back twenty thirty years

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Speaker 1: instead now looking back seventy years to get that compendium

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Speaker 1: of knowledge. So I think that it's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a cliche. But what goes around comes around is still

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Speaker 1: the case. There's still certainly lineage of ideas and talent.

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Speaker 1: The way that talent and way that artistry interprets those

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Speaker 1: ideas that is prevalent across decades and decades, and I

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Speaker 1: see similarities every day with things. And sometimes I will

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Speaker 1: say to an artist, this is like this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't have heard of that, and you know, quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: the internet sometimes they go, sure, we know that, and

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Speaker 1: and we know that artists because Spotify and Apple and

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Speaker 1: Amazon and all you can eat buffets of all the

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Speaker 1: music for multi generations. But there is a lineage there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, certainly talent, as I said, as a lineage.

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Speaker 1: You know, someone being artistically gifted is a lineage someone

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Speaker 1: being an amazing songwriter. There's a lineage there, and it

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Speaker 1: cuts through generations. And you're right. I feel like I

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Speaker 1: started to take on board and resorb that knowledge at

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Speaker 1: a crossroads where I could look back, but also I

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Speaker 1: could look forward to. And you know, so far I'm

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Speaker 1: keeping pace with looking forward, you know, I mean, the

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Speaker 1: streaming model is here, and I don't know what next

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Speaker 1: model is. I've seen plenty of models, and hopefully I

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Speaker 1: can navigate those chapters with an understanding of what the

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Speaker 1: musical art for me is and will need to balance

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Speaker 1: out the tech because of course, at the moment, this

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Speaker 1: is quite a dramatic chapter of art and tech. And

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Speaker 1: there have been chapters of the recorded music business which

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Speaker 1: have just been about the music, where companies like mine

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Speaker 1: would be okay if you had hits, you know, And

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Speaker 1: it's not that simple now because it's moving so fast,

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Speaker 1: and there would be a debate as whether tech drives

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Speaker 1: are or art drives tech. It would be a debate,

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Speaker 1: and that's a complex debate in the current chapter of

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Speaker 1: the music business. Absolutely, And I see what you're saying

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Speaker 1: about what goes around comes around again, because even when

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Speaker 1: I think about podcasts and how popular scripted audio is

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Speaker 1: at the time, I mean, Sony has made an investment

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Speaker 1: into podcasts as well. It's like the old radio teleplays.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference. Yeah, I mean everything's blended. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even in technology, people are taking you know, there may

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Speaker 1: be five components of an idea from a previous technological platform,

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Speaker 1: and someone takes one and expands that idea and ships

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Speaker 1: the emphasis slightly. And that's the case of music too.

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Speaker 1: There's a debate constantly, debate, particularly in America about rock

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Speaker 1: music and is rock music dead? And where the next

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Speaker 1: rock band and all that kind of stuff. But and

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Speaker 1: I don't look at it like that because I look

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Speaker 1: at it and go, okay, well, actually, in a strand

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Speaker 1: of emo hip hop, there is a blend of rock

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Speaker 1: music and now, and there is a huge component of

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Speaker 1: that music that is that is the angst and reflectiveness

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Speaker 1: of rock music. But it's a blend, and it's a fusion,

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Speaker 1: and it's new because it's a fusion, you know, and

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Speaker 1: I don't get nostalgic. Was saying, well, the way it

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Speaker 1: should be is that I need to go and stand

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Speaker 1: in a club and see a bass singer, drummer and guitarists,

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Speaker 1: and that's how it is. Because that isn't going to

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Speaker 1: be how it is. It's going to be a component, sure,

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Speaker 1: but it's not going to be the central because things

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Speaker 1: move on. You know. When I was a kid growing up,

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Speaker 1: I knew a lot about music being in the past

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Speaker 1: because you had a radio in your front room and

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Speaker 1: your parents taught to you about it. But the fact is,

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Speaker 1: when I liked the Talking Heads in nine and seventy seven,

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to listen to Glenn Miller from I

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Speaker 1: knew a Glenmer was, but on listen to that music.

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Speaker 1: And I think people can't understand how that this is

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Speaker 1: a very mature art form music. And so therefore people

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and twenty don't automatically know a rock

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Speaker 1: band from it doesn't work. It's forty years. If you

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Speaker 1: think about forty years and the medium of film or

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Speaker 1: in the medium of television or other art forms, it's

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Speaker 1: light years difference. And the fact is wise music not

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Speaker 1: thought of as being different to that. These gaps are

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Speaker 1: big and people have got to get used to to

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Speaker 1: understanding that. You know, you didn't like the music from

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago, so don't expect your kids to like

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Speaker 1: music from forty fifty years ago. But there will always

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Speaker 1: be a component and a trace of other forms of

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Speaker 1: music in that blend, because, as I said, this is

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Speaker 1: a mature art form now, and I see it all

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Speaker 1: the time. I mean, you know, it's like we have

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Speaker 1: young eighteen year old rappers whose musical influences are crazy

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Speaker 1: and they go back seven or eight decades, but the

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Speaker 1: fact is they've turned it into something new. I find

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Speaker 1: that incredible, exciting and I and honestly it sounds, you know,

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Speaker 1: without trying to sound like pizza pan. I don't look

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Speaker 1: back that often and be over nostalgic about what was,

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Speaker 1: because I'm fortunate enough to see what is and what

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Speaker 1: will be with that blend. We need to take a

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Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be back with more from Rob Stringer,

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Speaker 1: And we're back with Rob Stringer, So robbed this might

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Speaker 1: not be the most popular opinion, but I'm doing some

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Speaker 1: of the math in my head. And the streaming services

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Speaker 1: which are currently driving record revenues ten point one billion

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Speaker 1: dollars in the US and alone, you know, many of

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Speaker 1: them benefited from an early investment by the major labels.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel that record companies maybe haven't gotten enough

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Speaker 1: credit for helping seed those emerging technologies. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: also would say that I'm not sure that I'm ever

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Speaker 1: going to come for a place publicly, surely or an

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Speaker 1: interview saying that we deserve to take credit. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's probably justifiably in many ways, we take a lot

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Speaker 1: of grief and stick for the way we behaved in

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Speaker 1: previous chapters, and I'm sure some of that is accurate.

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Speaker 1: But I think it would be safe to say that

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Speaker 1: we're certainly not tech phobic, and that we are willing

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Speaker 1: to be braver and we're willing to be smarter about

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Speaker 1: how open minded we are. And I understand where because

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Speaker 1: as we just talked about, things didn't change for a

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Speaker 1: long time. Hits for the definition, and you know, and

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Speaker 1: that caused all sorts of idiosyncrasies in our business. And

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Speaker 1: the fact is that people only have to think about

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Speaker 1: the hits. And we've made plastic and factories and the

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Speaker 1: plastic was viral or the plastic was a CD, and

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, tech changed the landscape and

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Speaker 1: we got caught behind. I think we've earned a lot

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Speaker 1: since then. I'm used to people saying we're clueless. That's okay.

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Speaker 1: I mean we were clueless when downloads came along. But

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Speaker 1: what we did do as a business is we constituted ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We changed the head count, we ditch manufacturing, ditch distribution

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Speaker 1: that way, and we pushed towards a more creative, innovative,

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurial style. And I think we're much better place to

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Speaker 1: day than we would have been twenty years of it.

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Speaker 1: You know, is it perfect? No, it's not perfect. We're

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Speaker 1: not a brand new company. We're not We're not a

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Speaker 1: two year old startup. We've been at this company in

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Speaker 1: some derivation has been around a thirty years. But I

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Speaker 1: think we're much more open minded about how to change

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Speaker 1: and how to be flexible now, much more. And my

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Speaker 1: challenges every day are based on that as well. As

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Speaker 1: just finding hits. I've heard you say before that you

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Speaker 1: had a headcount of about fifteen thousand at the turn

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Speaker 1: of the millennium and you got it down to five thousand,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder does that make major labels more nimble today?

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Speaker 1: Are you able to respond faster than in the past. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think it's also about the training of those people.

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Speaker 1: Whether you've got five thousand or fifteen thousand's what people

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Speaker 1: are doing. And by the way, this wasn't a choice.

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Speaker 1: I think we at the era probably did it kicking

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Speaker 1: and screaming. We gave up manufacturing, we gave up distribution.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like we want to give up manufacturing distribution.

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Speaker 1: It was taken away from us. But the fact is

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Speaker 1: now we're able to gear people much more to what

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Speaker 1: we need to do. We have way more creative people

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Speaker 1: and way more entrepreneurial people in our company than we

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Speaker 1: did a year ago, never mind five years ago or

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Speaker 1: ten years ago. So there's definitely been a deliberate emphasis

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Speaker 1: on that basis. And as I said, of that fifteen thousand,

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Speaker 1: many of those jobs are just redundant now and they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be applicable. And no disrespect to any of those

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Speaker 1: people who were did their jobs probably very well. They're

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Speaker 1: not needed. So we've had to change. And I think

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Speaker 1: that we were able to make that adaptation when we

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Speaker 1: were written off and I was okay because bear in

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Speaker 1: are we misread the turn and millennium and you know,

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Speaker 1: we were going to be non existent and by ten

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Speaker 1: years time and we went below ground and we built

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Speaker 1: systems back up more sensibly. We bought companies, and we

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Speaker 1: bought stakes and companies. We bought Burttle Spend in two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine for what looks like an incredible bargain now

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Speaker 1: because it's probably the value is fifteen twenty times that amount,

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Speaker 1: and Universal bought E M. I and we bought in

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Speaker 1: My Music publishing. And so maybe we wouldn't have done

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Speaker 1: that in the boom of CDs, but we had to

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Speaker 1: because we had to go back to the drawing board.

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Speaker 1: And that period between probably two thousand and three four

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Speaker 1: and then the early two thousand and tens, the general

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Speaker 1: perception was we were left behind. So we had to

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Speaker 1: go and get ourselves to be a bit more smart

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Speaker 1: about the way we did things. And I do think

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Speaker 1: we did that. I think that chapter of the Live

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Speaker 1: Business taking over and other areas of the business being

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Speaker 1: more prominent gave us the chance to re evaluate ourselves

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Speaker 1: and reconsider what on earth we were doing to be relevant.

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Speaker 1: You know, I came here during that chapter. I came

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Speaker 1: here and came to American two thousand and six, which

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Speaker 1: was in the middle of that time period, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it was a bit like starting again, suremy, to

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Speaker 1: be honest, but with fortunately amazing catalog. Obviously, the pandemic

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Speaker 1: has been incredibly difficult from many businesses, but recorded music

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Speaker 1: is actually thriving to the tune of double digit growth. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, tech takes a lot

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Speaker 1: of credit for that, because the tech platforms have put

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Speaker 1: music in people's homes and in their cars and in

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Speaker 1: their phones so directly that we were able to benefit

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Speaker 1: from that, and suddenly a lot of people are a

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Speaker 1: lot more time to listen to music. After the initial

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Speaker 1: shock of COVID for the first couple of months, then

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Speaker 1: people settled into a different routine in their lives and

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Speaker 1: music became a very important part of that routine. So

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Speaker 1: what has been a bit more strategic is understanding the

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Speaker 1: share volume of music that would be going into those

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Speaker 1: platforms and understanding that we would need a bigger share

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Speaker 1: of that that quantity, and so we do have nets

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Speaker 1: that trall much wider for music than any point in history.

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Speaker 1: We are now looking at constant ways of finding more

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Speaker 1: music to put through our system and understand where it sits.

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Speaker 1: And certainly at the beginning of COVID, that timing worked

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Speaker 1: very well because we were able to put more music out.

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Speaker 1: Despite the fact you naturally think with what COVID happening

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Speaker 1: that it would be less music, it actually wasn't. We

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Speaker 1: didn't suffer from the fact that everyone stopped. Now I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying there won't be a value gap, because I

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Speaker 1: think there will be. There will be creative synergies that

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Speaker 1: haven't happened because COVID. There may have been a meeting

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Speaker 1: in a studio, or two people might have met in

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Speaker 1: a school, or there may have been a show that

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Speaker 1: changed the parameters of something. Those connections are very important

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Speaker 1: to what we do and how we build artists careers,

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Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure not as many connections happened on

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Speaker 1: certain levels. Obviously, people were communicating in a different way,

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Speaker 1: and there was positivity of that communication. Even my own company.

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Speaker 1: I feel like in the last year I've communicated with

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Speaker 1: my staff in some ways in a better way because

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Speaker 1: I visibly see them more often than I may have

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Speaker 1: done if we just presumed we were going to bump

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Speaker 1: into each other three times a year. It's different now.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I imagine the Long Tale of COVID

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Speaker 1: will probably be playing itself out for a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: I mean, live music, even though it's coming back in

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Speaker 1: dribs and drabs, it's not going to be what it

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Speaker 1: was anytime soon, right, you know, the live chapter is

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Speaker 1: part of the experience that defines the whole music process,

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Speaker 1: and so therefore to have that missing it may not

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Speaker 1: make a difference for some genres of music, but for

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Speaker 1: some others it's vital. I know from those moments, because

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Speaker 1: I've been fortunate enough to be in those moments when

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Speaker 1: something is transformed, the moment maybe you know, at the

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Speaker 1: festival or just the club with seven people in it,

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Speaker 1: and we haven't had that experience, and I think we

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Speaker 1: missed that experience, you know, I certainly do you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know that again, There's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff online and artists have done amazing things from

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Speaker 1: their bedrooms and from and readaptation of certain staging and

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Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, But the life thing is

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Speaker 1: more important than that. What was the last show you

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Speaker 1: saw before COVID? Oh? God, um, I think it was

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Speaker 1: a Tile of the Creator show. My senting year old

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Speaker 1: daughter badges me to go to as many shows as possible,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that was the last one. I know.

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Speaker 1: It was my wife's birthday. We went to see Harry

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Speaker 1: Styles play a radio show at the Barry Bare Room,

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Speaker 1: and then we went on to the Brooklyn Center to

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Speaker 1: see Celine Dion. How schizophrenic is that? And honestly, that

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Speaker 1: isn't just made up for showing. I think that. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting you look back at the year and it

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Speaker 1: becomes blurred about COVID and then into how we really

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Speaker 1: had to up our game on social responsibility. Look, we're

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Speaker 1: a genuinely global company. There are a lot of companies

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Speaker 1: that are huge corporations that don't have offices in eighty countries.

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Speaker 1: We do. So that was very easy to see the

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Speaker 1: effects and the different measurements of those effects in the

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Speaker 1: communities around the world. And so that was to me

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Speaker 1: that was just obvious. You know, the globality of what

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Speaker 1: we do was something that we need to act quickly on.

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Speaker 1: And I do work for a corporation, and there are

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Speaker 1: big brand name corporation, but honestly, in Japan, they are

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Speaker 1: very philosophically sound. And so therefore, when we realized we

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Speaker 1: needed to do something, it couldn't just be a token gesture,

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Speaker 1: and it couldn't just be something that was like we'll

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Speaker 1: do a one off donation and hopefully everyone want us

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Speaker 1: leave us alone. That that wouldn't work. Because we worked

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Speaker 1: with music, which is so living and breathing and so

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Speaker 1: violent people's lives, that we decided that we need to

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Speaker 1: do something dramatic and it needed to be continuous. And

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Speaker 1: then the terrible events of the beginning of June with

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Speaker 1: George Floyd, if that wasn't a wake up call to everybody,

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Speaker 1: never mind whether it was a music company or a

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Speaker 1: corporation or a government or a country, we needed to

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Speaker 1: act on that too. Than one of the things we

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Speaker 1: talked about when we put together Social Justice Fund, which

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Speaker 1: which we went to Tokyo to get approval, was that

431
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: this wasn't a knee jerk reaction and it wasn't something

432
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: that that was going to last a month. And then

433
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: because the issues that we face in the business because

434
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: black music is the heart of what we do as

435
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: a company right now, that those issues not something we

436
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: just turned around and face in a minute and then

437
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: walk away. We have to make it completely part of

438
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: the fabric of the company. So since then, what we've done,

439
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: we've now supported I think over three nine organizations since

440
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 1: June globally everywhere. Some of them are tiny and some

441
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: of them are very big organizations. And so now part

442
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: of my legacy is to make that part of everything

443
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: we do, and hopefully, quite frankly, it makes us a

444
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: better company and makes us a better destination for art really,

445
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: which is would be great. That was the case. Okay,

446
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: So we talked a little bit about Spotify turning fifteen

447
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: this year, and it was actually Sweden that first return

448
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 1: to growth after many years of decline, which we had

449
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: talked about at the turn of the century. Is there

450
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: something to be said for looking at a smaller country

451
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 1: like Sweden or like the UK, where you came up

452
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: as a microcosm of how the music business confunction on

453
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: a global scale. Did you look towards that and model

454
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: that when you came to the US. I think, certainly

455
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: on the art side, yes, because you look at the

456
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: size of the UK and what it's produced artistically, it's

457
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: out of parameters a number of people. Whether that goes

458
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,959
Speaker 1: back to the Beatles or whatever. I credit the BBC,

459
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the time for that, because

460
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 1: I think the BBC was mandated to play every type

461
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: of art form when all of us were growing up,

462
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: and I think that made pop culture front and center.

463
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: If someone headlines Glusterbury, first of all, they're on the

464
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: front cover of the Times newspaper. I'm not sure there's

465
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: many countries around the world where popular culture would be

466
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: so fun instead of so. What we exported out the

467
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: UK certainly gave me the confidence because I was aware

468
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: that that that we could export something that's art, that's

469
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: not steel or or ball bearings or even tech. That's

470
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: something very dramatic. And I think that what's happened with

471
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: the tech revolution is that it can be anywhere. And

472
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: I think Spotify, and I mean this is the most

473
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: complimentary sense, is uniquely Swedish and if you go to

474
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: their Stockholm office, you understand the roots of that company.

475
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: And maybe it couldn't have been found in anywhere else,

476
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: but you know, TikTok's from China. China is a huge

477
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: country with potentially incredible industrial prowess for the next chapter

478
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: of history, and TikTok is changing the nature of our

479
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: day to day business as well. But I think anywhere

480
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: anything can happen. In anywhere, anything can happen. And I'm

481
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: seeing trends in popular music now globally. I read streaming

482
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: charts from all around the world at least twice a week.

483
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: And we have a young artist in Argentina. I think

484
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: she's going to be fantastic. We're nurturing, we're taking it

485
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: very gently because she's young, but she's pretty special and

486
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: she's in the global charts right now. And I'm not

487
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: sure that would have happened so dramatically with all the

488
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: passport controls that physical distribution and broadcast isssubution had twenty

489
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: years ago. The truth is that the world has become

490
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: a smaller place. I just saw some statistics a couple

491
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: of days ago for Russia, and that market is booming

492
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: with local language music. And I look at markets where

493
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: we're expanding and where we're building offices. There's a young

494
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: Accle Gideon signed to Epic Records. He is in the

495
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: US streaming charts in the top twenty. But he's also

496
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: number one randomly in Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia right now,

497
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: number one in those two cherrs not boarders. Where it

498
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: went to Europe first the UK and then through passport

499
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: control that didn't pass the boundaries that would have been

500
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: there twenty years ago. It must be so nice to

501
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: not have that immediate barrier of entry. Like you have

502
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: BTS they sing in Korean, you have rosaliea she sings

503
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: in Spanish like the local language thing is no longer

504
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: such an inhibitor of success. That must be so freeing

505
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: as someone who works on music, and that is what

506
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: hopefully keeps me young same excited. I mean, the other

507
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: week we had Rosalier and Bad Bunny on Saturday Night Live,

508
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: and we worked for both artists. And the fact is

509
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: that who would have said that on S and L

510
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: twenty years ago there would be a Latin language song

511
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: times two on that program. It would have been mind boggling,

512
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: But you know what, it worked and it was magical

513
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: and those I believe those two artists are two of

514
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: the best new artists in the world over the last

515
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: few years, and the fact is that people have got

516
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: open ears. I know most of the charts around the world. Now,

517
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure my predecessors had to because there was checkpoints.

518
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: I don't think of UK any more or less important

519
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: than Mexico. Doesn't all have to be in English, no,

520
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 1: And and by the way, there's some artists that we

521
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: have on our ross st who, despite the fact they

522
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: have had huge English language pop records, when they're singing

523
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: their local language, it's way more transcendental. What moves you,

524
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: what inspires you? How do you find yourself motivated every day?

525
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: So I have to create a lot of change in

526
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: this company, and so my remit is very broad and

527
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: different to running a label as I did for twenty years.

528
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: And so it's more broad based and it's not as

529
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,239
Speaker 1: detailed and maybe on on the individual artists. But the

530
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: thing that still moves me is the purest art form.

531
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: Uh Scissor released the track on Christmas Day, and she

532
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: was quick and her and a company put the record

533
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: out quickly. And I listened to this record, I'm going,

534
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: how does anybody come up with that hybrid and that

535
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: fusion of music, which, by the way, sounded like nobody else,

536
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: Despite the fact that she's had hit records before and

537
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: makes this record that you look at the contributor to

538
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: that piece of music, that it's completely unique, and then

539
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: it come out of nowhere and the audience understand it

540
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: quickly and it became a huge hit very quickly. Not

541
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: because of the measurements of hits, it's because it touched

542
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: people so quickly, that record, and it was out on

543
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: Christmas Day. You know, it wasn't put out with a

544
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: huge campaign, but the music absolutely completely got under everyone's skin.

545
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: Oh man, you're talking about good day spaces that right.

546
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: You can listen to that record four months later and

547
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: it's still magical. So those moments moving and now much

548
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: more kind of things we're talking about. I just want,

549
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, our artists to be happy with what we

550
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: do for them, and I want our staff to be

551
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: happy with what happens in our company. And that's not

552
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: easy either. This is a combustible business and it is

553
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: emotional and it can be dramatic. As I just said,

554
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: you know, I do really want to achieve that Before

555
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: I am sit with a and rugs somewhere with a

556
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: flask of soup and listen to music with without some

557
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: of the scale of what I have to do at

558
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: the moment. Looking at the Grammys, talk about a diverse

559
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: portfolio between Beyonce, Harry Styles, Travis Scott, dojaquat Her. You know,

560
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: you've really got it covered. How are you feeling coming

561
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: into the Grammys this year, Well, it's weird. Every year

562
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: when the Grammars comes up, it feels like a lot

563
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: of work and a very busy week. And actually when

564
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: you don't have you got us a will shame the Grammars.

565
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it's got to be diverse if we

566
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: the company of our scale, and it would be no

567
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: different for our competitors. You know, if you haven't got

568
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: diversity of the Grammys, then you're not doing something right. Now.

569
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: There's always this thing where they only go for the hits,

570
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: and they only go for the things that are happening

571
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: today and they're not interested in tomorrow. Well that's actually

572
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: not true. From the diversification of music we have. We

573
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: have a ton of stuff. We have stuff in our

574
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: and being folk and we have all the categories covered

575
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: within our organization. You know, I think that it's very

576
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: hard to judge. I know, Drake stood up and did that,

577
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: said it exactly as it is. It's hard to make

578
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: a competition of music a competition, but the one thing

579
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: is that we do need to be represented in a

580
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: well rounded way because we are a big company and

581
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: we want that diversification of music. So I feel good

582
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: about it this year. I mean, you know, I've been

583
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: lucky enough to be in those moments. I was lucky

584
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: when Adele came through and one those sets of Grammys

585
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: and Best New Artists, and then twenty one and then

586
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: twenty five, and I was involved in the campaign for

587
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: random Acxis Memories and that was kind of weird because

588
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: two French guys dressed as robots beat the Grammy system

589
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: and one that night, and that was definitely one of

590
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: the best nights of my career because they are wonderful creators.

591
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, they are the purest form of creators,

592
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, as is Adele and as is Beyonce and

593
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: those artists when they were in. It's a great source

594
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: of pride. And I've had great nights and the Grammy

595
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: is sureley really you know, I mean, I've been very fortunate.

596
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: Some of those nights will be you know, those moments

597
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: I remember when I'm not doing this anymore. And they

598
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: were truly fantastic, you know, and so I like more

599
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: of those. But but but I have plenty of memories.

600
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, David Bowie, Black Star five Grammys,

601
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: he didn't get voted Grammedy Album the Year Out of

602
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: the Hamley won five Grammars, didn't get many nominations. See,

603
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: I still remember that five years later. Rob, Thank you

604
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: so much for talking to us. Best of luck at

605
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: the Grammys, and we're very much looking forward to seeing

606
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: what you do well. You'll be kept posting. You'll have

607
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: an opinion under at Lee Shirley's. So we'll just keep

608
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: on trying to surprise you. And we'll keep this stuff

609
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: going because it is a transformative time for business, and

610
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: so we're going to we're gonna keep changing with it.

611
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: And now a word with mastering engineer Emily Lazar, whose

612
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: work is often the last step the music making process

613
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: and the one whose magic can make the difference between

614
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: a song sounding good or great. For the Grammys, Emily

615
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: has ten projects in contention, including three in the Album

616
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: of the Year category. Cole Plays Everyday Life Times, Women

617
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: in Music Part Three and Jacob Collier's j C. Volume three.

618
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,479
Speaker 1: Her resume also includes seminal releases by Vampire Weekend, Beck

619
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 1: and Sia. Lazar's mixing and mastering mothership is New York's

620
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: The Lodge, which she founded in where she's worked on

621
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: some four thousand records. Lazar recently launched a charity initiative

622
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: called Move the Needle, which aims to close the gender

623
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: gap in music making Emily welcome. Thank you so much

624
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: for joining us. Thanks Charlie, it is great to be here.

625
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna ask you a question that I'm sure

626
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: you've never been asked, or maybe you've been asked at

627
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: a good jillion times. How does it feel to be

628
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: a woman in music? My most favorite least favorite question.

629
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: I hate that question. I behore that question. That question

630
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: takes you to places that really don't belong in the conversation.

631
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: The conversation should be about the art you're making, what

632
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: brought you into the field, what inspires you, what makes

633
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: you feel great, what makes you feel bad? Like? Those

634
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: are the important things that the human side of of

635
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: what we all do, not what gender you are. I've

636
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: never really been able to even understand the question right

637
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: people say, what does it feel like to be a

638
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: female mastering engineer. My answers was like, I don't know.

639
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: I don't identify as a female mastering engineer. I think

640
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: people are well meaning when they ask it, but to me,

641
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: it's actually condescending and degrading because it actually makes everything

642
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: that you've done I feel like it's not being judged

643
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: equally in the rest of the world. For example, you're

644
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: the first female master introdeer to do X. I get

645
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: that stealing breaking moments are really important, but there's this

646
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: twinge of yeah, but somebody else did it before you.

647
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter for me. It was really just

648
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,479
Speaker 1: more important to me to get to do the things

649
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: I wanted to do, and so those were things that

650
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: I was able to navigate. Now the younger generation has

651
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: taken none of it. I'm thrilled for them, like they

652
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: like the Me too movement when the Me Too movement

653
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: happened such a long time overdue. Still hasn't really come

654
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: fully to fruition as far as I'm concerned. But like

655
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: we and more kept our head down, did our work,

656
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: tried to stay out of the fray of elevating this

657
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: conversation to the fervor that it got to deservedly because

658
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: for fear that we wouldn't get to work right, that

659
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: we would be not taken seriously, that we would be

660
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: pariah's and not be able to do the things that

661
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: we loved, whether it be a journalist or making records,

662
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: and and that would have been the shame, because we

663
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: would have been removed from the conversation by virtue of

664
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: the fact that we were kind of in an abusive

665
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: environment by calling out that abuse. But now that this

666
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: has changed, the paradigm is totally flipped, and I really

667
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: love it. I applaud it. I think it's really fabulous progress.

668
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: I think we need even more. I think we're in

669
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: a in a time now where hopefully the tides are

670
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: changing and we're starting to see some equity. Two point

671
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: six percent of music producers and engineers being female. That

672
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: is not equitable, and we're just not there. We have

673
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: a lot of work to do, and um, I'm really

674
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: excited to try to help take on that challenge and

675
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: change that statistic, not just with myself but in helping others.

676
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: But I do hate that question. I think of mastering

677
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: as a last step in the ETI process, and maybe

678
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: the first step in the manufacturing and the distribution process.

679
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 1: I just so curious, how do you step in as

680
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: that last person in the process and understand the musicality

681
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: and what that person or the artist is trying to do?

682
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: How do you even wrap your head around it? That's

683
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: actually a hugely important part of my process. I make

684
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: a huge effort to have a dialogue and understand big

685
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: picture like what are we trying to do here? What

686
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: is this about? What was going on in your life? Like?

687
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: How is this different from your last album? What was

688
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: there something inspiring you to go in this direction? Is

689
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: this song or this chorus doing what it's supposed to do?

690
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: As you start to hone in on all the different things,

691
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: is this sequence doing the right thing? Is it telling

692
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: the right story? I'm listening to all your songs and

693
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: I'm hearing this common thread. Do you think maybe there

694
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: are some intertextuality here that you didn't see that we

695
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: should follow and take us down this road that you

696
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: maybe even subconsciously wrote. It's similar to like artists writing

697
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: songs and having a meaning and then a listener making

698
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: their own meaning and it being incredibly meaningful for the listener,

699
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: but actually not but the writer was in ending but

700
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: still kind of hitting the right buttons. It's that kind

701
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 1: of thing, and my goal is to always serve the song,

702
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: tell the story, make that artist feel that we've done

703
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: every possible thing we can. We're like that last chance

704
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: Texico to gas up, like making sure that we have

705
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: done everything we possibly can to help them give birth

706
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: to that baby and put it out in the world.

707
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: And I really do think of songs and albums as

708
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: giving birth. It's very similar, having done that as well

709
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: with my own son. It is a it's a you know,

710
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: labor of love and getting them out, putting them out

711
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: and having people potentially judge them and comment on them

712
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: very nerve wracking experience. I think can be exhilarating and

713
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: can be devastating um and feel very misunderstood. So helping

714
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: an artist give birth to that baby and then getting

715
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: them through that moment where they're like, is my baby ugly?

716
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: Do you like my baby? Is anybody else gonna like

717
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: my baby? You know? I enjoy that part of it

718
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: as well. And working with bands like are you dealing

719
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: with one person? Do you talk to the band as

720
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: a unit. It's different every single time. It really depends

721
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: on them their schedule, where they are, if they're touring

722
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: or not, minus things like pandemics, whether the album is

723
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: being put together in a single driven way, or i e.

724
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: I'm getting one track every couple of weeks or whatever

725
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: months and we put it together and they're releasing it

726
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: one a time because there's a new kind of trend

727
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: to you know. I've done tons of zoom calls with

728
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: some people, you know, like have a lot of options

729
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 1: and pick. Sometimes I'll get people three options for something

730
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: and then they'll pick and might say, Wow, I see

731
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: what you're doing on one, and then then I see

732
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 1: what you're doing on number number two, version two. So

733
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: I would love the choruses in number two, but I

734
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: love the verses in number one. Can we edit together

735
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: the choruses from due the Chriss Wonica? Yes? Sure, great,

736
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: awesome idea. So there's things that happened that you wouldn't

737
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: even imagine, weird, cool edits, and things that make things

738
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: flow and feel dynamic and tell the story that are

739
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: done on purpose, that are specific. It's not just a

740
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: five second decision and here you go. It's not like

741
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: that at all, not for me anyway. I wanted to

742
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: talk about just one example from your incredibly long discography,

743
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: which is insane. You've worked on four thousand albums throughout

744
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: your career. Crazy. This is a Grammy nominated song, seas Chandelier.

745
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: That song is so interesting sonically because there's a part

746
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: the course where it really sounds like her voice is cracking,

747
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: which of course gives it that grit and makes the

748
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: song so unique. Can you tell me about like a

749
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: decision like that to leave the sort of the rawness,

750
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: the imperfection of like a guttural vocal. Well, so that

751
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: was definitely a production and a see a decision, but

752
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: I specifically can recall that. Look, I listened to music

753
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: all day long, and not everything affects me as deeply

754
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: as another thing, but I try really hard to try

755
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: to connect to what's happening, and I do have visceral

756
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: reactions to these things. And that song made me cry

757
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: and laugh, and I remember being like wow, and I

758
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: was like laughing because I was like, I'm crying. I

759
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: can't believe I'm crying. This song is unbelievable. I remember

760
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: just listening to it a few times and being like

761
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: I was speechless, and I was just having an emotional

762
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: response to it and I remember everything about mastering that song,

763
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: and I remember doing it a lot of times two

764
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 1: get it to the point where I thought it was perfect,

765
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: and I leaned into that edginess, and I leaned into

766
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: the wailing of what her vocal which is insane, what

767
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: she can do with her voice. I kind of leaned

768
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 1: into that. And I had done her earlier albums as well,

769
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: her indie albums, and so I was familiar with her,

770
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: and that just literally blew my doors off. I'm just

771
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: grateful and lucky that I got to hear that song

772
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: before it was even out. Well, so let's talk a

773
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: little bit about the three album of the Year contenders

774
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 1: that you worked on. Albums by Coldplay, Him and Jacob Collier.

775
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: Those seem on the surface to be very different sort

776
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: of artists sonically. How did you approach them? Sonically speaking?

777
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: They are really all different but equally beautiful and deep albums.

778
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: They all have one thing in common. They're telling stories,

779
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: like real, big stories, and they all communicate in an

780
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: intimate way, even in their biggest moments and in their

781
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: biggest songs on the album. There's an intimacy there in

782
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: the delivery on all three of those albums, and so

783
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: I think that's a through line. I don't know if

784
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: that's a overall sonic tonal mastering through line, but for me,

785
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: it's a through line because that's a big part of

786
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: mastering for me. I wanted to ask you. You mentioned

787
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 1: part of your job is providing the sort of uniform

788
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: listening experience across platforms devices. However you hear your music

789
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: UM title, I feel like, has you know really sort

790
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: of found its niche with audio files people who appreciate

791
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: the high quality of sound. UM, does this change what

792
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: you deliver the fact that there's that there's more sort

793
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: of like high fi minded um outlets. No, Yes, And

794
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: I've been demanding this and I feel like I'm like

795
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: screaming from the rafters, like that this needs to change.

796
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: This needed to change a long time ago. And Spotify

797
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: love them, great platform, super easy, everyone has it, everyone

798
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 1: uses it. Sounded awful. Really sound does not sound as

799
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: good as it should. It's a disservice to the artists,

800
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: it's a disservice to the people who are making records

801
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: and crafting this stuff. And it's a huge disservice to

802
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 1: the consumer because I get to hear it at full

803
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: res resolution. In my studio, I get to hear it

804
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,919
Speaker 1: on great speakers. I'm not hearing its streaming. I'm hearing

805
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: the real deal. My concern is that we're just not

806
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: giving people the quality that they need, or the quality

807
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: that the art deserves. And I can boil this down

808
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: to an example that I've made before, and I'll use

809
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 1: it again just because I think it makes it clear.

810
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: If I were to go to a museum and pay

811
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: the museum entrance fee and wander down the halls and

812
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 1: end up standing in front of the Mona Lisa, if

813
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: the Mona Lisa were hanging on the wall and it

814
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: was a photo copy of a photo copy of a

815
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 1: shrunken photocopy of a stamp sized version of a black

816
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 1: and white photocopy of the Mona Lisa, I can't imagine

817
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: that it would give me the same visceral reaction that

818
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: it would if I actually saw the Mona Lisa smile.

819
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: And this is to me a very similar experience with

820
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: what's happening with music. The representation that the consumer is

821
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: getting is the equivalent of a photocopy of a reduced

822
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: size photo a copy. That's a problem. And I appreciate

823
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: title for standing their ground and offering higher res and

824
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: actually also addressing the credits issues. Um, and I'm very

825
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: very grateful that Spotify has made this announcement and that

826
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: they're gonna work as hard as they can to offer

827
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: what I think would be a really great start. Streaming

828
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: things are convenient, but they don't sound good period. Tune

829
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.