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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, this is producer Steve And in the event

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Speaker 1: that you're still looking for some holiday gifts right now,

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Speaker 1: well La, Megan and I encourage you to go check

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Speaker 1: out the episode description where there are some pretty amazing

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Speaker 1: sponsors deals. These are products and services that we feel

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Speaker 1: serve your wants and desires. Oh and maybe you want

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Speaker 1: some trust Me merchandise. The Bitley link is also right

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Speaker 1: there for you, maybe for yourself, somebody you know, somebody

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Speaker 1: else's a big fan of the podcast, so go check

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Speaker 1: it out. We would really appreciate it, And from all

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Speaker 1: of us here on the show, thank you week in

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Speaker 1: and week out for choosing to listen to Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 2: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 3: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 3: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 2: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 2: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 3: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 2: Or shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, Trust for trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swad person.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I've been never lied to you.

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Speaker 3: If you think that one person has all the answers

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Speaker 3: don't welcome to trust me. The podcast about colts, extreme

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Speaker 3: belief and manipulation from two healthy selves who have actually

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Speaker 3: experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I'm low Lablanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and.

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Speaker 3: Today is a unique episode. It is our two hundredth episode.

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Speaker 3: Can you fucking believe that?

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Speaker 6: Honestly?

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Speaker 7: What the what?

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Speaker 3: How have we talked that?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: What do we even say? It is so confusing, I know,

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Speaker 3: and I feel.

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Speaker 7: Like we've just touched the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 3: It's fully when I well, let me introduce our guests first,

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Speaker 3: and then we'll talk more about that. Today. Our guest

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Speaker 3: is someone who's special to you, and her name is

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Speaker 3: Carolyn Costen. She is an eating disorder therapist, author and expert,

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Speaker 3: and we are going to talk today about the links

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Speaker 3: between colts and eating disorders, Why so many cults control

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Speaker 3: the eating habits of their members or lead to its

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Speaker 3: members developing one after leaving, what control has to do

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Speaker 3: with it, and why having an eating disorder is like

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Speaker 3: having a little cult eater in your brain.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk a little bit about Carolyn's practice and my

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Speaker 2: experience in eating disorder treatment and the parallels between helping

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Speaker 2: someone out of a cult and helping someone recover from

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Speaker 2: an eating disorder, both in terms of not attacking them

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Speaker 2: and in terms of the importance of rebuilding a genuine

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Speaker 2: sense of self and purpose without the cult or eating disorder.

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Speaker 3: And Carolyn is the one who actually helped you recover

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Speaker 3: from your eating disorder.

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Speaker 2: Carolyn is my north star. And I can't go about

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Speaker 2: shouting out.

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Speaker 6: My personal therapist.

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Speaker 2: While I was there Anna, I don't know, like a

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Speaker 2: year ago, I went through an experience in my life

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Speaker 2: and I just drove straight to Anna's house and that

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Speaker 2: experience was then fixed.

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Speaker 3: Oh good.

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Speaker 2: The whole community there was really amazing. And we'll get

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Speaker 2: into that as my Cult Tans thing of the week.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, obviously this isn't like a literal

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Speaker 3: cult episode, but it is interesting how many parallels there are,

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Speaker 3: because it's like it's like a type of altered thinking,

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Speaker 3: Like it's an altered reality that to get health again

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Speaker 3: you have to kind of emerge out of. But it's

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Speaker 3: such a tricky process obviously, as we will talk about,

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Speaker 3: and I think it.

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Speaker 2: Draws a lot of parallels to just a lot of

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Speaker 2: the things that people in cultes start to experience, which

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Speaker 2: is and we talk about this in the episode, but

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Speaker 2: substance abuse, domestic abuse, just all of these things that

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Speaker 2: can happen, even if you haven't experienced it yourself. I

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Speaker 2: think everybody knows somebody with an eating disorder, and it's

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Speaker 2: kind of important, just on so many different levels.

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Speaker 3: You've wanted to do an episode on this for a while.

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Speaker 3: It's personal to you, and I am glad that you. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm glad that we did it, So stick with us people. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's a good interview. Lots of interesting points and parallels.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the parallels to cults is really crazy. I

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Speaker 2: knew there would be, but it's pretty shocking.

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Speaker 3: Before we get into it with her. I mean, what

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Speaker 3: is or culty is thing?

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Speaker 6: My cultiest thing is about me?

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Speaker 3: Perfect, No, it is.

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Speaker 2: So I've just been reflecting a lot this week on

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Speaker 2: our two hundredth episode and this interview in particular, and

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Speaker 2: all of the mixed feelings that come up when you

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Speaker 2: have family that are in a high control religion, what

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Speaker 2: you consider a cult, and you know, doing this podcast

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Speaker 2: has been such a gift, but it brings up so

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Speaker 2: many things for me and so much in particular around

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Speaker 2: me even being alive today because my parents sent me

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Speaker 2: to treatment with Carolyn, which is expensive, which was such

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Speaker 2: a big deal.

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Speaker 6: And every Saturday would.

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Speaker 2: Be family weekend where you'd have group therapy with your family,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of times the girls' families wouldn't come, which,

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Speaker 2: like I get it, but like my parents would fly

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Speaker 2: in from way across the country every weekend, stay like

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Speaker 2: my dad has a full time job, like stay at

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Speaker 2: a bus western show up at the thing like how

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Speaker 2: do we help our daughter?

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Speaker 6: And so you know, there's just the sense of like betrayal.

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Speaker 2: And maybe you can tell me if I'm explaining that

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Speaker 2: well enough. But what kind of got me out of

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Speaker 2: this high control religion was being sent somewhere where I

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Speaker 2: recovered from something the high control religion probably gave me,

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Speaker 2: which was an eating disorder. And I feel bad that

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Speaker 2: my family didn't get that same experience.

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Speaker 7: I feel bad that everybody and a.

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Speaker 2: Cult doesn't are in a high control group doesn't get

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Speaker 2: to go do what I got to do. So hopefully

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Speaker 2: sharing this message is my way of paying it forward.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, I wish everybody I was, including.

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Speaker 2: My parents, got to go do what I got to do.

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Speaker 2: So lots of mixed emotions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think that's such an interesting contradiction

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Speaker 3: that I think comes up for a lot of people,

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Speaker 3: which you know, when you still when your face only

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Speaker 3: is still part of a group or religion, like and

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Speaker 3: you know they're good people and you love them and

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Speaker 3: you're like that. That creates such a conflict in your mind.

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Speaker 3: But it's the worst, And especially someone like you who's

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Speaker 3: in a position where you taught you are speaking out

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Speaker 3: about yeah, that group and groups like that all the time,

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Speaker 3: but you still love your Yeah, I mean, and you

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Speaker 3: know we all still love our families who are still

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Speaker 3: part of these religions. Yeah, it's a hard contradiction to hold,

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Speaker 3: especially when they were so helpful to you in getting

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Speaker 3: you out of your any disorder which got you out

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Speaker 3: of their group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would have been real dead. I mean when

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Speaker 2: when I pulled up to Montanito, I was like, uh.

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Speaker 7: Oh, and you know what trigger warning?

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Speaker 2: Because sometimes talking about recovering from eating disorders is very

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Speaker 2: triggering for people with eating disorders. I don't know why,

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Speaker 2: because it'll just throw out of numbers and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: So if if you're the one with an eating disorder,

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Speaker 2: I don't know trigger warning, but yeah, I pulled up

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Speaker 2: just a completely different person than I left.

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Speaker 7: And it was crazy.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, well, I'm I'm glad you shared. I'm glad

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Speaker 3: you shared this.

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Speaker 7: Yeh, what's your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 3: It's dumb, I mean whatever. I am like, I'm reading

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Speaker 3: a book for a book club called The Sacred Conspiracy.

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Speaker 3: So the French writer George Batai, which I had no

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Speaker 3: idea how to pronounce that before this. I am not

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Speaker 3: going to pretend I knew about this person other than

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Speaker 3: that he existed. He was this like French writer was

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Speaker 3: a part of the surrealist movement in the twenties thirties.

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Speaker 3: I think he started a secret society at the time

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Speaker 3: called asse Fall. I think I'm saying that correctly. They

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Speaker 3: had all this imagery around, like the Headless Man, and

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Speaker 3: I'm I haven't gotten that far into it, so I

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Speaker 3: don't know that much about it. Yeah, but in a nutshell,

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Speaker 3: so he was a part of this group of philosophers

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Speaker 3: and writers who were like opposed fascism, but they were

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Speaker 3: kind of disillusioned with all of the different types of

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Speaker 3: thinking at the time, and so basically but Ti was

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Speaker 3: like so basically like he wanted to create a secret

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Speaker 3: society centered around this idea of a headless man. It

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Speaker 3: was like a secret society where they would literally gather

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Speaker 3: in the woods at night next to some like old

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Speaker 3: tree or whatever, and they like the whole idea was

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Speaker 3: talking about how sacrifice was like the ultimate form of

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Speaker 3: the sacred, and legend has it. It seems like it's

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Speaker 3: probably a little overblown, but legend has it that they

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Speaker 3: wanted to actually do a human sacrifice every but everyone

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Speaker 3: wanted to volunteer to be the sacrifice. Me me, it

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Speaker 3: seems like that might be like a little bit of

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Speaker 3: you know, legend, Wow.

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Speaker 6: No, but he wanted to do this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this secret group sounds super cool.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's an interesting reaction because like at the

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Speaker 3: time they were these like leftists, but they were so

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Speaker 3: like sick of the politics of the time and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah the thirties, I mean they were like, yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: get out of here.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, chop someone's head off.

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Speaker 3: They were like, yeah, we need to go into the

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Speaker 3: more like sort of mythological spiritual plane, I guess, And

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Speaker 3: I like, I'm I relate to that. I'm like, fuck,

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Speaker 3: I'm so sick of yeah, human politics and war and

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Speaker 3: get us to the fifth dimension like I'll sacrifice something.

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Speaker 3: I mean nothing, You're looking at.

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Speaker 7: Me a little too hungrily.

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Speaker 3: I'll sacrifice something.

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Speaker 4: Oh Okay, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I'm not that far into it, so I'm probably I

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Speaker 3: probably sound super dumb. But it's fun that he started

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Speaker 3: a secret society, and I will if anything else I've learned,

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Speaker 3: anything else interesting, I'll talk about it.

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Speaker 6: Awesome.

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Speaker 2: While we can't have two hundred episodes without saying a

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Speaker 2: special thank.

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Speaker 4: You to Steve.

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Speaker 2: That's our producer who's an angel, and our listeners and

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Speaker 2: everyone who's bought.

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Speaker 4: A T shirt or love to review all of it,

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Speaker 4: we love you so much.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you Steve so

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Speaker 3: much for editing our stop and starts.

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Speaker 6: We love you, Steve.

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Speaker 3: All right, shall we talk to Carolyn.

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Speaker 6: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: I love giving people gifts because it's a time to

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Speaker 2: really show that you care about them and a way

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Speaker 2: to express your love for the people in your life.

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Speaker 7: Quinns dot com slash Trust.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Carolyn Costen to trust me. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 3: joining us.

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Speaker 5: Oh well, thanks for having me. I'm kind of excited

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Speaker 5: to be here.

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Speaker 3: Megan's been telling me about you for so long. I

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Speaker 3: can't believe we finally have you on.

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Speaker 7: This is a dream for me. Thank you so much

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Speaker 7: for being here.

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Speaker 3: We have you here with us today to talk about

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Speaker 3: eating disorders, which is something Megan has been wanting to

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Speaker 3: do an episode on for a really long time. It's

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Speaker 3: a world I don't really know that much about, but

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Speaker 3: from what I do understand, there are some really interesting

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Speaker 3: parallels between cult thinking and eating disorder thinking. You know,

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Speaker 3: correct me if there's better terminology. But you know, we

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Speaker 3: do hear so many stories about cult leaders controlling people's

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Speaker 3: diets and almost like giving people eating disorders, and then

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Speaker 3: of course people kind of develop their own internal high control,

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Speaker 3: like person inside of their mind?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 3: Does that Is that a good way to explain them again?

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Speaker 7: Yeah? Yeah, I Carolyn, What do you think of that explanation?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? I mean, I think the thing about a cult

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Speaker 5: is usually there's some association with a cult leader, although

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Speaker 5: cults can be around ideology and philosophy and religion. But

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Speaker 5: usually we think of cults and we think of this

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Speaker 5: cult leader. But what happens with the eating disorder? I mean,

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Speaker 5: when you think about it, who is the leader. I mean,

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Speaker 5: in some ways the leaders change in terms of social

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Speaker 5: media drive with thinness. But what happens over time is

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Speaker 5: you develop your own an internal task master inside. You know,

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Speaker 5: this sort of person who's it's a part of yourself,

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Speaker 5: but it's creating dogma and rituals, indoctrinating and you in

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Speaker 5: a way you kind of brainwash yourself. But I'll get

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Speaker 5: into that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, as someone who knows less about this subject,

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Speaker 3: can you define what an eating disorder actually is and

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Speaker 3: how you kind of know if you have one?

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Speaker 5: Not? Really? Okay, here's the thing. The thing about an

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Speaker 5: eating disorder, there's a classic diagnostic, you know, definition of

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Speaker 5: different eating disorders. There's most people I think know anarexia nervosa,

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Speaker 5: blamia nervosa, and binge eating disorder. But there are other

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Speaker 5: ones along the way. There's restrictive, there's arfid, there's subclinical

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Speaker 5: what they call eating disorders where you don't really meet

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Speaker 5: the full criteria for any of those. But really it's

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Speaker 5: when disordered eating habits have taken so much control over

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Speaker 5: your life that it almost feels like they have a

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Speaker 5: life of their own. So what you started off doing,

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Speaker 5: like let's say you started off dieting and you want

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Speaker 5: like me. In my case, I wanted to lose weight.

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Speaker 5: I made a bet with some girlfriends. You know, I

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Speaker 5: wanted to win the bet. I have sort of a

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Speaker 5: type a personality, and I just won that bet, lost

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Speaker 5: weight and kept going. But I had trained my mind

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Speaker 5: at that point eating these foods is bad, don't do it.

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Speaker 5: And certain personality types and we'll get into that too,

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Speaker 5: have more of a tendency to take those kind of

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Speaker 5: things to an extreme. So if you're a perfectionist, or

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Speaker 5: if you're a lost soul in a way, if you've

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Speaker 5: had other things that have caused problems and you're looking

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Speaker 5: for something to feel like, oh I'm really successful and

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Speaker 5: I'm really good at this, there are a lot of

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Speaker 5: different pathways. Actually, I call it a jigsaw puzzle, and

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Speaker 5: all the pieces come together and sort of create this

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Speaker 5: eating disorder. And it's almost like the person has two personalities.

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Speaker 5: They have theirself that people used to recognize and identify

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Speaker 5: with and talk to, and then they have this other

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Speaker 5: ego state that tells them don't eat this, don't do that,

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Speaker 5: you have to run ten miles anything less, and you

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Speaker 5: know you're a bad person. Almost as if a leader

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Speaker 5: would be telling you to do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it just correlates so perfectly with what we've learned

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Speaker 2: on this podcast of like, you know, you're so susceptible,

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Speaker 2: if you're a perfectionist, or if you're super lost, or

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Speaker 2: just anything to kind of give your brain a relief.

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Speaker 7: It's so odd that.

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Speaker 2: It often comes at the expense of hurting yourself, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's wild.

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Speaker 5: And it doesn't seem that. I mean, here's another thing

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Speaker 5: very uncanny that's like cults. Is you started off thinking, oh,

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Speaker 5: this is something that I can do, this is something

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Speaker 5: that's going to improve my life, this is something that

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Speaker 5: makes sense to me, gives me a sense of meaning

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Speaker 5: and purpose, and you get into it for your betterment,

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Speaker 5: you know. And as you go along, though, you have

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Speaker 5: to sort of follow the dogma and follow the rituals

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Speaker 5: and follow everything, and the deeper you get in, the

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Speaker 5: harder it is to see the full perspective, and the

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Speaker 5: harder it is, especially if you worked really hard and

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Speaker 5: followed all the rituals for anyone to start to challenge it.

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Speaker 5: And that's why it's so hard to get out of

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Speaker 5: a cult, because you're only listening to and you're only

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Speaker 5: following the sort of dogma of the cult. So when

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Speaker 5: someone challenging it, it's like they're challenging your belief system.

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Speaker 3: I have more questions about that, but I want to

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Speaker 3: hear a little bit more about your personal backstory, Like,

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Speaker 3: so your journey kind of began with a competition with

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Speaker 3: your friends. Can you talk about how it happens.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, this is in the time of when

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Speaker 5: Twiggy was just be coming on the scene as oh no,

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Speaker 5: really skinny fashion. Everyone started going, wow, these models. My

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Speaker 5: father left my mother for a fashion model. I had

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Speaker 5: a kind of a perfectionist and I tend to run anxious.

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Speaker 5: So now, looking back, I can see all the ingredients,

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Speaker 5: but at the time, I just thought, oh, I'm really

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Speaker 5: successful at this. I'm you know, losing weight is good,

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Speaker 5: Gaining weight is bad. That's the other thing. You get mantras,

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Speaker 5: you know. And I got on the scale and if

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Speaker 5: I was losing weight, that was a good thing. So

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Speaker 5: this was in the ancient times.

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Speaker 2: This is in the nineteen hundreds, not that bad, but.

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Speaker 5: Like nineteen sixty nine ish, and I went off to

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Speaker 5: college still, you know, very very restrictive and losing weight.

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Speaker 5: I probably lost about forty some pounds, and there weren't

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Speaker 5: people around that really knew. No one said, oh, she

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Speaker 5: has anarexia. Finally, there was one doctor who told my mom, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 5: there's this book this lady wrote but it was mostly

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Speaker 5: about It was Hilda Brooch and she's one of the

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Speaker 5: first people who wrote about eating disorders. And she wrote

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Speaker 5: a book like two thirds about obesity and a little

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Speaker 5: back in. One third of the book was about anarexita

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Speaker 5: and rivosa. But but but here's here's what I think

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Speaker 5: is really interesting about the power of how you get

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Speaker 5: out of things. I was on my way to a

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Speaker 5: Christmas party and I was telling myself. I could hear,

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Speaker 5: you know, this internal voice saying, when you get to

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Speaker 5: that party, you're not going to eat one thing. You're

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Speaker 5: gonna you're gonna there's gonna be cookies and candy and

364
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Speaker 5: all this stuff, and you're not gonna eat one thing.

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Speaker 5: Another part of me, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, really,

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Speaker 5: this other part of me said, that's easy for you

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Speaker 5: to do. Now you've been doing this for a while.

368
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Speaker 5: It's easy for you. What would be hard for you

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Speaker 5: to do is go in there and eat a cookie

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Speaker 5: or a couple of cookies and deal with it. And

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Speaker 5: I was really like, who's that Oh, who's that voice? Yeah?

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Speaker 5: That continued to happen, and my whole philosophy is based

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Speaker 5: around that. My whole philosophy is based around the fact

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Speaker 5: that we do have an internal self that knows better,

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Speaker 5: but a part of us can be co opted, a

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Speaker 5: part of us can be taken. To a point where

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Speaker 5: I was getting a lot of attention for it. People

378
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Speaker 5: were saying, how do you lose weight? I want to

379
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Speaker 5: know how you did it. I tried and I wasn't

380
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Speaker 5: able to. I felt like on the top of the world.

381
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Speaker 5: I'm getting thin, twiggies getting famous. You know it was.

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Speaker 5: It was a perfect storm. Yeah, my work has been

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Speaker 5: to help people, and this is also true with a cult.

384
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Speaker 5: You really have to understand people when they're in a cult.

385
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Speaker 5: You have to understand why they're in, what they why

386
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Speaker 5: they believe in it so strongly, what it's satisfying for them.

387
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Speaker 5: When I help people with eating disorders, I don't just

388
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Speaker 5: go in and say I'm taking this away from you.

389
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Speaker 5: I help them to get the strength to bring the

390
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Speaker 5: healthy part of them forward again. And I think it's

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Speaker 5: the same thing you have to do with somebody who's

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Speaker 5: in what we would consider as these other cults out there.

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Speaker 2: What do you think sparked that healthy voice to talk

394
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Speaker 2: to you? On the way to the Christmas party, we

395
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Speaker 2: hear a lot of people say, like, suddenly my cult

396
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 2: just like in it didn't make sense to me, Like

397
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Speaker 2: what happened there?

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Speaker 7: Why do you think your healthy self turned on?

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Speaker 5: You know, it's a good question, but I think we

400
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Speaker 5: do have it in there. And for me, I think

401
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 5: there was a part of me that realized at one point,

402
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Speaker 5: oh I And this was a turning point too. At

403
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Speaker 5: one point when I was thinking I was so in control,

404
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Speaker 5: I also had a realization, you know what, you're not

405
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Speaker 5: really in control. This is kind of out of control.

406
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Speaker 5: Because I had I couldn't sleep well because my knees

407
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Speaker 5: were knocking because the bones were so thin. My social

408
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 5: life wasn't very good because I couldn't go out to

409
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Speaker 5: eat with anybody because I was ordering like bean sprouts.

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Speaker 5: You know, right, there were a lot of signs. I

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Speaker 5: feel lucky, Megan, I feel lucky that I had the

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Speaker 5: other spark that comes out. I think we all have it.

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Speaker 5: I think some of us need a little bit of

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Speaker 5: push to see it, which is what I do. I

415
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Speaker 5: like blow on people's sparks. That's what I feel like

416
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Speaker 5: I do, and that part is what gets people better,

417
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Speaker 5: because if you go in and you start to say

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Speaker 5: stop doing that, it's bad for you, and you try

419
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Speaker 5: to take it away from somebody, they just grab back

420
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Speaker 5: even harder. I'm got good at helping people get out

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Speaker 5: of regular cults.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, it seems like you have a

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Speaker 3: really good grasp on how that works. People feel attacked,

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Speaker 3: you know, if you directly attack their belief system coming

425
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Speaker 3: out of a cult. They feel like, you know, there's

426
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Speaker 3: this thing that's become their life, it's become their identity.

427
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Speaker 3: It's become who they are, and they don't want to

428
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Speaker 3: hear you tell them they're dumb or they're doing something bad.

429
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Speaker 3: They do kind of have to come to that conclusion

430
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Speaker 3: on their own.

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Speaker 5: Those are really good words. Identity. It becomes an identity.

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Speaker 5: So another thing is when people, for a long time

433
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Speaker 5: in the field, we would call people, oh, she's an

434
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Speaker 5: anorexic or she's a bellimic. And I started this trend

435
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Speaker 5: thirty five years ago saying we're not stop doing that.

436
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Speaker 5: We have to because they already it's become their identity,

437
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Speaker 5: and we're concretizing it by calling this person an anorexic.

438
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Speaker 5: We have to say she has anorexia nervosa, which means

439
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Speaker 5: she can also choose to not have it, but if

440
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 5: you call her an anorexic. So I don't even use

441
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 5: those terms anymore. And now I think it's fairly common

442
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 5: that people don't use those terms, but I still hear

443
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 5: it a lot, the identity piece. It's hard, you don't.

444
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 5: I remember when people were saying, we're trying to help

445
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 5: me and you know, get rid of it, and I

446
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 5: was like, it's not an it, that's me you're talking about.

447
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 5: That's why I like to connect with the person's healthy

448
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 5: self that's in there, strengthen that. And so when I

449
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 5: meet people and I'm talking to them, I mean, I'm

450
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 5: always searching for where is the healthy self? And often

451
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 5: it comes out for other people. It's not always the

452
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 5: same in other cults, but in this sort of cult

453
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,239
Speaker 5: is following with the basically it's the philosophy, and in

454
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 5: some ways, and not totally, but a lot of people

455
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 5: with eating disorders and there are differences here and there,

456
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 5: but in some way, this pursuit of thinness you can

457
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 5: think of as sort of philosophy, the religion of thinness,

458
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 5: you know. But if you have that as the core philosophy,

459
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 5: people with eating disorders will often be able to take

460
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 5: care of somebody else or bring their healthy self out

461
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 5: for somebody else, Like for example, if Megan's in a

462
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 5: group with me and somebody else is struggling, may and

463
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 5: can give that person reassurance, you know, like, no, you're

464
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 5: not going to get fat eating one piece of pizza.

465
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 5: Can't do it for herself. And that's why it's really

466
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 5: important to show people you have it in there. I

467
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 5: have mothers who feed their kids perfectly and then binge

468
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 5: purge all day, you know. And what I have to

469
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 5: do is say, you got a healthy self in there.

470
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 5: I know you have it. It comes out for your kids.

471
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 5: Where did it go? How did it get repressed? How

472
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 5: did it get you served? And that's what happens when

473
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 5: you have brainwashing and you have I mean, for every

474
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 5: image we get on social media or advertising or even

475
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 5: watching television shows, there's very few that are counter culture

476
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 5: to what we get about the pursuit of thinness and

477
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 5: image being more important than substance, so we have to

478
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 5: find the antidotes.

479
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: Are you having trouble finding a doctor who will see

480
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 3: you and actually listen to you.

481
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 2: Zachdoc is the place where you can find and book

482
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: doctors who will make you feel comfortable, listen to you,

483
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: and prioritize your health.

484
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: I found my primary care doctor on zoctoc as well

485
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 3: as my dermatologist, and it was super, super easy.

486
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can

487
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 2: search and compare highly rated in network doctors near you

488
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: and instantly book appointments with them online.

489
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 3: You can search by location, availability, and insurance.

490
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 2: Once you find the doctor you want, you can book

491
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Speaker 2: them immediately, and.

492
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 3: These doctors all have verified reviews from actual, real patients.

493
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: We're talking about booking appointments with tens of thousands of

494
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 2: top rated patient reviewed credible doctors and specialists.

495
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 3: You can filter specifically for ones who take your insurance,

496
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,239
Speaker 3: are located near you, and treat basically any condition you're

497
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: searching for.

498
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: The Typical wait time to see a doctor brioked at

499
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 2: ZocDoc is between just twenty four to seventy two hours.

500
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: You can even score same day appointments.

501
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: Go to zachdoc dot com, slash trust me and download

502
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: the ZocDoc app for free, then find and book a

503
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: top rated doctor today.

504
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 3: That's ZocDoc slash trust me, zachdoc dot com slash trust me.

505
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: I connect with some of what you're saying from more

506
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: of you know, the OCD side of things, which I

507
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: also see having and Megan point at this out as well.

508
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 3: I also see a lot of overlap in in like

509
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: cultish thinking with OCD thinking, because it's all about this

510
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: the need for certainty, which really comes down to feeling

511
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,959
Speaker 3: like you have some control when you feel out of

512
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: control in some way. And with OCD that might be

513
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 3: I need the certainty of, you know, knowing my mom's

514
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: not going to die if I don't do this thing,

515
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: or knowing that I'm not going to lose my mind

516
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 3: or whatever. And with cults it's I need the certainty

517
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: of somebody giving me answers because for whatever reason, I

518
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 3: don't feel I have them right now my life feels

519
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 3: chaotic or the world is or whatever. Can you talk

520
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 3: about the element of like a need for control within

521
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 3: uny disorders, Yeah.

522
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 5: I think I mean people talk about it a lot

523
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 5: and say that's all about control, isn't it, And that

524
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 5: is a big part of it. It's not everything, but

525
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 5: it's a big part of it. And what happens is

526
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 5: you have a very easy way to know if you're

527
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 5: successful or not. It's very black and white becomes it

528
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 5: becomes if you say, I'm only going to have this

529
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 5: many calories a day and then you stick to it,

530
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 5: that's a very easy thing. It's harder to life is

531
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 5: so gray and vague and hard to navigate. But if

532
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 5: someone gives you, oh, but here, you can be successful.

533
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 5: So if I made it to the day eating a

534
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 5: certain amount or skipping a certain amount, or weighing a

535
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 5: certain amount, or running a certain amount of miles. I mean,

536
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 5: that's why I try to get people with eating disorders

537
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 5: away from using numbers, because numbers become cages, you know,

538
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 5: like if you run a mile one day, you have

539
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 5: to run a mile the next day, and then a

540
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 5: mile the next day, and now that's a ritual and

541
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 5: you can't run less than that or else there's a problem,

542
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 5: and undisciplined and unworthy which is another sort of culty word,

543
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 5: but unworthy. So control the other thing you have to

544
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 5: point out with people with eating disorders which I think

545
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 5: is helpful is I'll say, it feels like you're in control,

546
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 5: but you're really in control of your out of controlness.

547
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 7: That's what it's like, right, right, right.

548
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 5: And that's a good thing. You know, you have to

549
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 5: take this logic and use it. You know, if someone

550
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 5: wants to really be in control, I'll say, well, that's okay,

551
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 5: I understand say that I liked to be in control.

552
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 5: I still like to be in control of my life

553
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 5: right now. You know, I have a little I'm a

554
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 5: little anxious, and that's just my temperament. But are you

555
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 5: really in control? Because if you're ending up in a

556
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 5: treatment centerre and you're ending up not being able to

557
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 5: go out with your friends, and you're ending up and

558
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 5: you can just X, Y and z, then you think

559
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 5: you're in control, but really you're in control of you're

560
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 5: out of controlness. It's a really good way to get

561
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 5: people to sort of think twice. You want people to

562
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 5: begin to think twice. You want people to begin to

563
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 5: question getting somebody out of a cult. You want them

564
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 5: to begin to question themselves rather than you forcing the

565
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 5: issue and saying, don't believe them, believe me, and then

566
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 5: you're just like them right right.

567
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: You know you said control isn't all of it. What

568
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: are some of the other things, like what's really going

569
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: on in science?

570
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 5: Well, for example, I mean, some people don't think of

571
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 5: it as control as much as they think of it.

572
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 5: I mean, this is really weird, but purely they're looking

573
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 5: at the weight loss and the thinness and I'm going

574
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 5: to be attractive and I'm going to have people, you know,

575
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 5: be in a get in a partnership with somebody, and

576
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 5: they don't see it as much control. It also depends

577
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 5: on cultures. I mean there are some cultures where control

578
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 5: was even more important than thinness, you know. And then

579
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 5: you know, this is rare, but I've even had blind

580
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 5: people who have eating disorders. But theres is about ritual

581
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 5: and about following the rules and about having things to

582
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 5: be I feel safe if I'm following the rules, I

583
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 5: feel safe. And I am also in this group of

584
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 5: people who are revered. When you're in a cult and

585
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 5: there's a leader and then there's the top people in

586
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 5: the echelon, you know, the cabinet members, and you sort

587
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 5: of feel like you're part of the in group. You

588
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 5: can feel like that in this culture, part of the

589
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 5: in group. But when they did, they did these studies

590
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 5: in Fiji. Oh my god. Yeah, like years ago, like

591
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 5: I think nineteen ninety five or something like that. Fiji

592
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 5: had no television and no eating disorders. They brought television

593
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 5: in right around then, and three years later nineteen ninety eight,

594
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 5: now they have eating disorders. But the girls were the

595
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 5: girls where they were even throwing up to lose weight

596
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 5: after television was introduced. But when the girls were interviewed,

597
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 5: what they said was that they saw that the girls

598
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 5: on the television shows that had the best parts, the

599
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 5: highest status, you know, was always the star was the

600
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 5: thin one. The other other girls who were bigger got

601
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 5: the secondary roles. Isn't that interesting? So it was about

602
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 5: status really, not not just thinking of being thin, but

603
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 5: they equated thinness with status and look around. We love that.

604
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: And I think that's where I got hooked in. Like

605
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: I remember being at Montinado, your treatment center, and I

606
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: think a lot of you know, I in some cases

607
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: people go get treatment, and let's just say for drugs,

608
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: which is another thing. People in high control groups are

609
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: very you know, prone to getting addicted to But that's

610
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: a whole other conversation. But you know, you can go

611
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 2: to rehab for cocaine and then somebody can tell you

612
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: about math, and suddenly your thing is worse. And so,

613
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: you know, I think a fear for some people is

614
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: you go to treatment for kind of mild anorexia and

615
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: then maybe somebody who's way more anorexic like brings out

616
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: a bigger.

617
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 7: Part of you.

618
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: But for me, it wasn't about control consciously as much

619
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: as it was about being cute and I and I

620
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: remember kind of realizing that and realizing that it was

621
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: a lot different for the other women in my life

622
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: who were in high control religion too, who like almost

623
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: every woman I know in.

624
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 7: These high control religions, has an eating disorder.

625
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 5: Sorry, go on, no, I was just thinking, well, that's

626
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 5: part of not taking it away from you. That's the

627
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 5: part of why I have everybody when they come in.

628
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 5: And by the way, I just want to say, not

629
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 5: to be misleading to anybody out there. I Montinito used

630
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 5: to be my Yes, I used to own Montanito, but

631
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 5: I don't anymore. So I just don't don't want people

632
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 5: to mistake that. But it's why I I there's I

633
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 5: have people write this thank you letter to their eating disorder,

634
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 5: you know, like I would have someone write a thank

635
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 5: you letter to what their cult did for them in

636
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 5: the beginning, because you you know, wanting to be cute.

637
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 5: There's nothing wrong with that. What there is is a

638
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 5: don't sell your soul for it. Don't betray your health

639
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 5: or sell your soul for it. And that's the thing.

640
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 5: I don't want to devalue what somebody gets from their

641
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 5: eating disorder. But you also mentioned something super interesting, which

642
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 5: is why I think parents and rightly so and partners

643
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 5: are afraid to put somebody in a treatment center because

644
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 5: if you don't have the right people running it, and

645
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 5: you don't have this kind of dialogue and have people

646
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 5: talking and helping each other and all that kind of stuff.

647
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 5: I mean, it's so tricky the treatment because then it

648
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 5: could be just a whole fueling you know. I always

649
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 5: say people with eating disorders can bring up the best

650
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 5: or the worst in each other, and so you have

651
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 5: to be very open. And you know me, I'm very

652
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 5: transparent and very open about what we're talking about. And

653
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 5: if somebody you know did anything or you know, got

654
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 5: cut purging in the other room, we just all talk

655
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 5: about it and what does that mean? And it was never.

656
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 5: It's never I'm gonna take this away from you. It's

657
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 5: hold up a mirror and show the person here's your life.

658
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 5: Do you see what I see? Would you like to

659
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 5: change that? And usually there's a yes, but I don't

660
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,959
Speaker 5: know how. Yes, but I'm afraid yes, but I don't

661
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 5: think I can. There's a whole series of questions, you know,

662
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 5: asking people, I want to get better butt, And I'm

663
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 5: sure cold people would say this too, even when they're

664
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 5: thinking about leaving. I want to leave butt, and getting

665
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 5: all that worked out is super important.

666
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like your point about it is it is

667
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 3: okay to want to be cute. We all want to

668
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: be cute, and I think that, like truly, like we

669
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 3: all want to feel tracked if we all need human

670
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 3: connection and we've been told this is the way to

671
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 3: get human connection. And and similarly with people and cults,

672
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 3: like the fundamental needs that people have that get them

673
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 3: to join are totally understandable, totally human, you know, like

674
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: a desire for community, a desire for connection, a desire

675
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: costs betterment. Yeah, exactly, there's like the fundamental reason why

676
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 3: these things begin is generally very understandable. But the reason

677
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: you know when it starts to teeter into huh, while

678
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 3: I've cut off my family, I'm not doing my passions anymore.

679
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 3: You know, my quality of life, My life is very

680
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 3: like small and contained or or just in general, I'm

681
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: not as happy as I used to be for some reason.

682
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 3: That is when it's time to assess, right and be like, okay,

683
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 3: this maybe isn't providing all of the things that I

684
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 3: thought it was providing.

685
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 5: People. Here's another thing I do. I have people. I

686
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 5: don't know if remember all these things, Megan. But you know,

687
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 5: write a good buy letter to your eating disorder. And

688
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 5: you write this goodbye letter, and people sometimes don't feel

689
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 5: prepared to do that, But what you're doing is helping

690
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 5: them with what would they say to this part of

691
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 5: themselves that really they're afraid to let go of? You know.

692
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 5: So you write the goodbye letter, but then you let

693
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 5: the eating disorder part of you right back. Well what

694
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 5: about this? And what are you going to do about that?

695
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 5: The reason you let it right back, and that's the thing, Well,

696
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 5: the reason you let it right back is so you

697
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 5: can see where are all the things I still need

698
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 5: to work on? If the eating disorder yourself writes back

699
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 5: and says, well, what are you going to do the

700
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 5: next time you get jealous? Or what are you going

701
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 5: to do the next time your self esteem suffers? Then

702
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 5: you go, okay, got to work on some other tools. There.

703
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 5: You're constantly exploring with the person. The treatment has to

704
00:36:54,480 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 5: be collaborative. And I'm so concerned about treatment that is

705
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 5: kind of the sort of a forced issue, forced weight

706
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 5: gain to a certain pounds every week. There's a lot

707
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 5: of that going on, and I think the problem is

708
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 5: you too, will relate to this a lot, since since

709
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 5: this is the sort of background of your podcast and everything.

710
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 5: When people come into treatment, they are following sort of

711
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 5: the rules of the eating disorder, like the rules of

712
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 5: the cult. Like I can and I ask people, what

713
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 5: are your rules? I have them write down their rules.

714
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 5: I can't eat after five o'clock at night. If I eat,

715
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 5: I have to run. I can't eat any desserts, so

716
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 5: I can't eat sugar. I haven't write down what their

717
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 5: rules are. But they're following these eating disorder rules. Then

718
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 5: they come into treatment and if what treatment does is okay,

719
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 5: now you follow all our rules. Here's our treatment rules, right,

720
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 5: you see what's going to happen. Then what happens is

721
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 5: when they discharge from treatment, they're out there in the world,

722
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 5: and now they don't have treatment rules anymore, they will

723
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 5: very easily slip back to eating disorder rules. What you

724
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 5: have to do in treatment is give the person back themselves.

725
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 5: Where's their value, where's their guiding star, what do they

726
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 5: want for their life? That's the thing about strengthening the

727
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 5: healthy self.

728
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we've had cult interventionists on who've talked

729
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 3: about that very thing. It's like guiding somebody who is

730
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 3: fresh out of a high control group has to really

731
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 3: be centered around like their authentic self and if they

732
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: don't know, and sometimes they don't know what that authentic

733
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 3: self is, either because they've been in there for so

734
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 3: long or they just completely lost sight of it. And

735
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 3: but that is what you have to do, because similarly,

736
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 3: you know, there are cult intervention tactics or historically they

737
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 3: have been, that have not been, that have just been

738
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 3: kind of giving someone a new cult basically when in

739
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 3: reality they have to learn how to get in touch

740
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 3: with their own values.

741
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 5: I've had a couple of discussions with people about this.

742
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 5: I've certainly never done a podcast about it, and never

743
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 5: thought about how I might to people get people out

744
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 5: of cults. But really I probably have a lot in

745
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 5: common with them because that authentic self thing is so important.

746
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 5: If I tell people, if I'm training a group of therapists,

747
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 5: and I say, there's only one thing, If there was

748
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 5: only one thing I could teach you, it would be

749
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 5: that concept of strengthen the person's healthy self. Connect with it.

750
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 5: Don't make an enemy of their eating disorder self, because

751
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 5: then they'll just won't talk to you. They'll just hide

752
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 5: and be, you know, wait till you're gone and then

753
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 5: come back out again and make an enemy with that part.

754
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 5: But strengthen the person's healthy self. That's a key and

755
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 5: show them, you know, in my book, So I have

756
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 5: a book called Eight Keys to Recovery from a Needing Disorder.

757
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 5: I have a few books, but in that book, the

758
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 5: eighth key. The first seven keys are what are you

759
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 5: recovering from? The eighth key is what are you recovering too?

760
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 5: And Megan will also attest to this. I mean I

761
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 5: would take people to the movies, I would take people

762
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 5: to place during Christmas. I would bring them to my

763
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 5: house and have Christmas stockings. You know, I was myself

764
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 5: and the staff were trying to where were you even trying?

765
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 5: We were living our lives with them and showing them

766
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 5: what a healthy, recovered life could be like. And I

767
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 5: also think that is really important, don't I don't feel

768
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 5: like I don't know, what do you think, Megan, I

769
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 5: don't feel like like I treated people like a sick person.

770
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 5: I would ask the sick person to the healthy person

771
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 5: in there.

772
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't know. It made me cry.

773
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sorry, guys, I'm like totally losing the plot

774
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: of the interview. I think it's just like so close

775
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: to home. But Lola, your questions are perfect, so keep going.

776
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 3: But I want to hear more about what you're feeling,

777
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 3: if that's okay, If you don't mind, of.

778
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 5: Course, it's probably good because it was very touching and

779
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 5: you were very trapped in it, and so it makes

780
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 5: sense to listeners to know that it's still an emotional

781
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 5: thing and to have someone reach out a hand and

782
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 5: connect with your lovely self, you know.

783
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm crying because I'm so grateful,

784
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: but I'm also just so sad that so many people

785
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 2: don't get a gift that perfect, like you really set

786
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: up the perfect exact situation that people in quolts or

787
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: eating disorders need to get out, and I was in both,

788
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: so it just so happened to.

789
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 7: Get jolt me out of just a mind that was

790
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 7: so horrible.

791
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the rituals, just the shit I had to do

792
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: every day, it was just so awful.

793
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, guys, hold.

794
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 5: On, no, that's all right, by the way, thank you.

795
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 5: I actually think as a culture we've lost healthy ritual

796
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 5: We've lost it. And you know, from drawing the Angel

797
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 5: cards to all the things that we would do in

798
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 5: our groups that were healthy.

799
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: Rituals exactly, and you know, like not everybody liked the

800
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: Angel cards. Some people like this thing and just giving

801
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: us so many options, like we're going on a walk

802
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: and the beach were even if you're miserable, when you

803
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: go at a walk for a walk, if you're not

804
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: near a beach, just a walk someplace pretty like part

805
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 2: of your insides are being affected, Like part of you

806
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: is becoming stronger when you surround yourself with strong people

807
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 2: who have things that you're trying to move towards.

808
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 7: I don't know if that makes any sense.

809
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 3: Or like everyone with a share goal of being healthy yes,

810
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 3: and like supportive.

811
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 5: And we don't. We didn't tell you what kind of

812
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 5: diet you had to have. I didn't even tell anybody

813
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 5: what their weight needed to be. You know it, Really

814
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 5: that takes away from it. I think I would. It

815
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 5: was easy for me to say, oh, you're unhealthy, you're

816
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 5: underweight because your body temperature is low, you're not menstruating,

817
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 5: your bone density is bad. There are a lot of

818
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 5: other parameters to use, but helping people again find their

819
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 5: own internal compass and for that, since you know, there

820
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 5: wasn't really any it's about there wasn't really any leader,

821
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 5: although of course I was the leader in the sense

822
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 5: that I owned the place and paid the staff and

823
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 5: was the clinical head. But it was about making you,

824
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 5: each person there their own leader of their life, right

825
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 5: I love?

826
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 3: Yeah. What are the first things that come to mind

827
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 3: when you hear the expression big business? Fancy suits, corner office,

828
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 3: boardroom meetings.

829
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: Sometimes you forget that business could just be what you're

830
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: running out of their garage.

831
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 3: And in order to make that run, you need a

832
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: business behind the business.

833
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 6: It's the extra.

834
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 2: Support that makes buying and selling online simple.

835
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: For millions of businesses.

836
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: That business is Shopify does selling better than.

837
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 3: Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet, and.

838
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 2: Then not so secret secret with shop pay, the boost

839
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 2: conversions up to fifty percent, meaning.

840
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 3: Way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going sell.

841
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: If you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better

842
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 2: be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrowing.

843
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: On the web, in your store, in their feed, and

844
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 3: everywhere in between.

845
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: Because businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.

846
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 3: Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that the

847
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 3: biggest companies use.

848
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: Sign up for your one dollar per month trial period

849
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: at shopify dot com slash trust me all lowercase.

850
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 3: Go to shopify dot com slash trust me to upgrade

851
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 3: your selling today.

852
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 4: Shopify dot com slash trust me.

853
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: I'm curious, Megan, and also maybe Carolyn, you have encountered this.

854
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 3: You know, you've talked to a bunch of people, you said,

855
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 3: who are coming out of a high control religion, and

856
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 3: so many of those people have eating disorders. Are there

857
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 3: any like common themes that you've heard about sort of

858
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 3: how that happened.

859
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 2: And my personal experience. You can't gamble, you can't cheat,

860
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 2: you can't drink, you can't do drugs, you can't do anything,

861
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: and that like your chit just comes out in this

862
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 2: one area.

863
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 7: That's that's what I've observed. What do you think, Carolyn, You're.

864
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I think that's true.

865
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 5: I think that when you're wanting to leave a whole

866
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 5: set of living your life under all these rituals, it's

867
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 5: very easy to get pulled into another set of rituals

868
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 5: that you think is going to feel safe, and you

869
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 5: don't even recognize it right away. You're looking for safety,

870
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 5: you're looking for Look, the world is hard and complicated

871
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 5: and difficult to navigate. I've known people who got out

872
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 5: of very strict religious cults by I don't think they

873
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 5: realized it in the beginning, but certainly later in the

874
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 5: process of being trapped and trying to get out of

875
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 5: the eating disorder, realizing that that's one of the ways

876
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 5: that they got out, was having an eating disorder and

877
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 5: having to go to treatment and having to get away

878
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 5: from the group, and then realizing, oh my god, I

879
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 5: don't want to go I don't I don't want to

880
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 5: get better because if I get better, it means I

881
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 5: have to go back to this cult. I was sinning

882
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 5: which is fascinating, Yeah, fascinating, and then you have to

883
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 5: again go for well what about being independent, what about

884
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 5: having none of those what about how are you going

885
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 5: to so now you have this is someone who now

886
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 5: is in an eating disorder, in an eating disorder treatment center,

887
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 5: and then having to say I'm not going back to

888
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 5: that religious cult. And that has happened a few times,

889
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 5: and it has been a little scary for them because

890
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 5: some of the things I did, like like even doing

891
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 5: the angel cards, or I would do some chanting meditation music,

892
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 5: and some of the things like that would be oh,

893
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 5: this feels a little bit like my room cut, you know.

894
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 5: And I remember one time even going and getting Christmas trees,

895
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 5: and we brought Christmas trees in Demontanito and to my

896
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 5: house and people came over to my house and helped

897
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 5: me decorate my tree. I was very involved with the

898
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 5: clients in that sense. And this one person who had

899
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 5: been in this religious yeah, yeah, it was a religious

900
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 5: cult and saying to me, I'm nervous that that's some

901
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 5: kind of what is that? Why do people bring trees

902
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 5: in their house because in this religion they didn't do

903
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 5: that celebrate Christmas? Was that of something, and for me,

904
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 5: I explained to her the nature part of that, not

905
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 5: anything to do with Baby Jesus or Christianity, because people

906
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 5: have been in all kinds of cults for that. You know,

907
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 5: Jesus is part of it, or Jesus is not part

908
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 5: of it, you know what I mean. But I explained

909
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 5: to her this is an old This comes from ancient

910
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 5: times where people just re veered pine trees and brought

911
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 5: them into their house during the winter because it's the

912
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 5: only tree that didn't lose its leaves, and they didn't

913
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 5: really understand that, but they revered it and they put

914
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 5: candles on it where we got the lights from because

915
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 5: they were just honoring this tree, honoring nature at the

916
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 5: time of the winter solstice. To this day, she writes

917
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 5: me at Christmas and reminds me or sends me a

918
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 5: text or call or something that she has a whole

919
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 5: different relationship because that was about and a lot of

920
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 5: our rituals that we have that seemed to be religious

921
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 5: in nature were taken away from more like pagan time,

922
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 5: from early times, from ancient times that had to do

923
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 5: with seasons and changes and honoring things like that like

924
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 5: harvesting and thanksgiving, and stuff.

925
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 3: Like that, you know you look at like nexium or

926
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, so many of them. So many cult

927
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: leaders explicitly made their followers like count their calories, only

928
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 3: eat specific things like become unhealthy as a part of

929
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 3: the cult's rules.

930
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 5: So because once you get someone to do that, and

931
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 5: someone has done that to themselves, they have a really

932
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 5: hard time justifying why they did that to themselves, unless

933
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 5: it was for a worthy cause. So the more you

934
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 5: get someone to do that, the more they feel like

935
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 5: they've sacrificed for this thing. That makes it even harder

936
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 5: to give up. And on the other hand, when you

937
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 5: really restrict someone's calories, you also can create a kind

938
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 5: of a OCD Like we wouldn't even deal with OCD

939
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 5: or OCD medications when someone first came into the clinics

940
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 5: because until we got them nutrition restored, we didn't know

941
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 5: how much of that obsessive compulsive behavior was based on

942
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 5: lack of nutrition. Because if you deprive people of nutrition,

943
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 5: they get a little bit o And if you're shaping

944
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 5: their mind at the same time they're developing OCD, you're

945
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 5: sort of shaping their OCD around the things you want

946
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 5: it to be.

947
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 3: Obsessive about right, right, that's crazy.

948
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 7: Oh my god, that is so great.

949
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 3: So you have to stabilize people, right, Like, stabilize people first,

950
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 3: that's the most important thing. Like get them healthy and

951
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 3: then then they can find their like mental health.

952
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: Right, These these cult leaders are keeping people starved up. Yeah,

953
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: good sleep, communication with people who love them. And it's like,

954
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 2: how I mean, eating disorders mimics so much of it,

955
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 2: Abusive relationships mimic so much of it, drug use mimic

956
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: so much of it.

957
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 6: And it's just I.

958
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 7: Have no point. It's just sad.

959
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 5: There's ways that we realize that it's different because of

960
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 5: the internal leader. You don't have a leader. It's there's

961
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 5: no one to buck up against and say this man

962
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 5: made these people do it. There's this internal sense of responsibility.

963
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 5: But again that goes back to the helping people not

964
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 5: give away their power to not only any person, but

965
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 5: to any ideology or any philosophy or you know, to

966
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 5: to realize the strength they have in themselves to be

967
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 5: able to you know, find their way even with bumps

968
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 5: and grinds. And that's the thing. When people start to

969
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 5: get better, there is a little bit of what I

970
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 5: call the oh shit, now what Because when people start

971
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 5: to get better and start to give up some of

972
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 5: those rituals, there's a what do I replace this with?

973
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 5: If you were binging and purging several times a day,

974
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 5: or your ritual was to this is what you made

975
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 5: for breakfast every single day, and then you ran this

976
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 5: many miles, and then you counted your calories and then

977
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 5: you took this many laxatives or whatever your rituals were.

978
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 5: That's a lot of time in your day. Now when

979
00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 5: you don't have that the and it's going away, Oh shit,

980
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 5: now what comes up? And it's like now life. But

981
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 5: what I would always say is go find your people,

982
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 5: because it's not like I grew them on trees in

983
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 5: the backyard. All the people that I hired, I hired

984
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 5: because I would sit in an interview with them and go, oh,

985
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 5: that's one of my people, and then hire them.

986
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 8: You know.

987
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 5: So it's go find your people because at the end

988
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 5: of the day, you want to be able to reach

989
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 5: out to people rather than any disordered behaviors or any

990
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 5: rituals or anything like that, any leader to get your

991
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 5: needs met. You want to have people in your life.

992
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and cult sometimes mimic having your people. Yeah, and

993
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: so I guess it's like find your people who aren't

994
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: all getting their information from one person.

995
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 7: Is that a fair or one idea or one idea

996
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 7: one source.

997
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 5: Or one idea? Yeah, that's a good one. And you're

998
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 5: still accepted even if you don't want to follow the

999
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 5: rules they follow, like a different people who are in

1000
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 5: treatment with you, Megan, and everybody. Nobody's eating the same

1001
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 5: I don't know anybody who's eating the same way or

1002
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 5: doing the same exercise or so you're bonded on things

1003
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 5: and not on any kind of dogma that you have

1004
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 5: to follow.

1005
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 3: Are there other ways that you have encouraged people or

1006
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 3: seen be helpful to people? Obviously finding community is so

1007
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 3: important so that you aren't alone. But like I imagine

1008
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 3: it's similar to how people describe coming out of a cult,

1009
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 3: like which is what you just literally said, where they're like,

1010
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 3: who am I now? Like? What do I do?

1011
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 2: Now?

1012
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 3: How do I find my meaning?

1013
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 6: Now?

1014
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 3: Do I find my purpose? Now? Is there anything that

1015
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 3: you found to be helpful for people who are kind

1016
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 3: of in that stage?

1017
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think that people think they have to have

1018
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 5: one and they've got to pick the right one, and

1019
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 5: I remind them that when kids are growing up, they

1020
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 5: might try soccer for a little while, and then n

1021
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 5: ballet for a little while, and they might try painting

1022
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 5: for a little while. People when they're older have the

1023
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 5: sense that they got to find their it right away,

1024
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 5: and life can be a series of exploring different it.

1025
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 5: You might like hiking in nature, you might like horseback riding,

1026
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 5: you might like just getting in a book club or

1027
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 5: reading books on your own. What I tell them to

1028
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 5: do is just start trying out things. Because even if

1029
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 5: you tried a bunch of things and don't and you

1030
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 5: become someone who's the jack of all trades and a

1031
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 5: master of none, that's still a worthy life to have, you.

1032
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, that's so similar. It's so similar to something

1033
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 3: Steve Hassen called expert. Steve Hassen has that on the show,

1034
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 3: which is like, oh yeah, yeah, when people because he

1035
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 3: works with a lot of people who were either in

1036
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 3: a cult for a very long time or fully grew

1037
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 3: up in one. So we're never allowed to develop a

1038
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 3: sense of self. So what how do you find yourself

1039
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 3: if you've never been allowed to have one? And his

1040
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 3: advice is the very same thing, try stuff, see what

1041
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,760
Speaker 3: makes you feel good? See what feels right for you.

1042
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 5: Well, and they're kind of afraid try stuff because everything

1043
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 5: has been dictated since they've been you know, in the cold,

1044
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 5: and so people are kind of afraid to try stuff.

1045
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 5: But when you talk about how does a kid learn,

1046
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 5: a kid doesn't come out knowing. You know, oh yeah,

1047
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be a painter unless you're most sard and

1048
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 5: you know you want to play the piano at three

1049
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 5: years old. You know, I guess that happens. But for

1050
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 5: the most part, it's about the world itself is like

1051
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 5: this huge playground and you don't have to master any

1052
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 5: of it. It can be cool just trying out different

1053
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 5: things for the longest time or forever, you know.

1054
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: And I will just add like I when I was

1055
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: at Montinito, me and another girl are like, let's try

1056
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: an acting class. I'd never done acting, never been allowed to,

1057
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: and we had a girl on the podcast, Lola, and

1058
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 2: I did because that acting class turned out to be

1059
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 2: a cult Gloria.

1060
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 7: It's conservatory. So like you know, it can just like

1061
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 7: life is funny, it can all go awry. It's just

1062
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 7: I didn't.

1063
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 2: I wasn't fully immersed, and I was fine, But I

1064
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: don't know there's something in that to me of like

1065
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: you join a new group and suddenly it's a call.

1066
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 8: I don't know for sure, it's all over right, so

1067
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,760
Speaker 8: you know, being aware of it, if your healthy self

1068
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 8: is strong enough, then I do think you start to

1069
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,839
Speaker 8: notice and you see the people who get out and

1070
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 8: like you said, what was that thing?

1071
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 5: Then went off in my mind that when I was

1072
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 5: on my way to that Christmas party? What was it

1073
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 5: that made my healthy self go ping? Who knows, but

1074
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 5: I do think that it's in there, and something can

1075
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 5: touch it, something can spark it. It comes out in

1076
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 5: all different ways. And I'd like to think that people

1077
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 5: who went through eating disorder treatment are a little bit

1078
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 5: more aware when they at recognizing things that start to

1079
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 5: mess with their independence, you know, mess with their ability

1080
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 5: to feel good about themselves unless they're following some rule totally.

1081
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 2: And I think at the time we called it like

1082
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 2: having Montinado eyes or like getting Montinindo ears, where suddenly things.

1083
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 7: Just hit you differently.

1084
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 2: And I'm really good friends with people that I love

1085
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: and admire and they're doing nothing wrong, but they are

1086
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 2: always like there's always a chain of like.

1087
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 7: Plastic surgery, like Turkish can you believe they.

1088
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 6: Look so good?

1089
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 2: And I'm just like remove, remove, like I don't like it.

1090
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: It triggers something in me and I have to remove

1091
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: myself from it.

1092
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 7: Does that make any sense?

1093
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 3: As in like people getting because you went through that program,

1094
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 3: you became more awake.

1095
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 2: I just know myself when I'm like getting this bitch

1096
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: of like, oh, I want to be perfect, I want

1097
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: to get everything done to my face and body. And

1098
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what, I get that, Megan, but

1099
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 2: like no, and I just remove myself from the conversation

1100
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 2: and people can do whatever they want.

1101
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 5: Yeah. I don't weigh, and I never weigh, and people

1102
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 5: sometimes say, well, you know you should. There's a huge

1103
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 5: movement of treatment for people in eating disorders of that

1104
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 5: they have to get on the scale and know their weight.

1105
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 5: And I just say why, what is the point of that.

1106
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 5: I don't weigh and I don't feel the need to weigh.

1107
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 5: And when I get into an argument with some practitioner

1108
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 5: who thinks, well, patients are going to have to face

1109
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 5: their weight someday, I go, really, I go to the

1110
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 5: doctor's office and don't wigh, take my blood, take my

1111
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 5: ur and listen to my heart. What do you need

1112
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 5: a number to see if I'm healthy? For so? But again,

1113
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 5: I do that because partly I do it almost as

1114
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 5: my feminist eating disordered clinician statement. Now I can weigh

1115
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 5: I was hospitalized a few years ago with a parasite,

1116
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 5: and obviously, I mean I was in bad shape, and

1117
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 5: they weighed me in the hospital and I was wenty

1118
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 5: a half. Fine, go for it, you know, it's not

1119
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 5: like I can't. But the same thing in my house.

1120
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 5: You come to my house and I don't have mirrors.

1121
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 5: I don't have long mirrors in my bedroom. I don't

1122
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 5: have mirrors even in my guest bathroom. When people comment

1123
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 5: and all the time and I go, I can have mirrors.

1124
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 5: I go to hotels all the time, I travel a lot.

1125
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 5: I just don't put them in because I don't think

1126
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 5: I need to know every second what I look like.

1127
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 8: I don't.

1128
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 5: What's the point of that. I think we can brain

1129
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 5: walks into thinking we need a mirror. When we go

1130
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 5: to the movie theater, we go to the bathroom, we

1131
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 5: wash our hands, there's a mirror. What the fuck for?

1132
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 5: I don't no total it. Well, I have my own

1133
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 5: personal statements that I make because I believe they they

1134
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 5: I believe they're sort of the right thing to do,

1135
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 5: but I don't like I put them on anybody else.

1136
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 5: I think they help me.

1137
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure there are some people out there who

1138
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 3: would engage in avoiding mirrors as a compulsion in itself, right,

1139
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 3: So it's all about having that awareness. I really also

1140
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 3: resonate with, uh, with what you're saying from just from

1141
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,919
Speaker 3: my own mental health stuff as well, because I think

1142
00:59:55,240 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 3: before really getting into targeted therapy, it was really just

1143
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 3: identifying with whatever thoughts came into my head and just

1144
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 3: believing them and not And I didn't have that skill

1145
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 3: of like stepping back and observing the thought in order

1146
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 3: to respond to it differently than I would. And it

1147
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 3: sounds like with all of this stuff, that's just like

1148
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 3: such an important skill as like being able to step

1149
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,959
Speaker 3: back and observe and be like, oh I reacted that way.

1150
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 3: That's interesting, Oh I'm having that thought, which is really

1151
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 3: just mindfulness, you know, it's not like, yeah, I.

1152
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 5: Mean, okay, you're talking about key four in my book

1153
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 5: Keys to Recovery from an Eating Disorder. Key four is,

1154
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 5: you know, challenge your thoughts and feel your feelings. And

1155
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 5: it's a lot about learning that you're the underlying, observing self.

1156
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 5: You're not your thoughts and you're not your feelings. Those

1157
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 5: things come and go. You're the observing self and you

1158
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 5: can sit back and watch them passing like a cloud

1159
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 5: and learn to respond rather than reacting to things all

1160
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 5: the time. Yes, exactly what you said. And that's a key,

1161
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 5: you know. When I had to write that book, it

1162
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 5: was weird. I was asked by Norton Sens to write

1163
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 5: that book, and my first response was eight Keys, because

1164
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 5: they have a series of books called eight Keys to

1165
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 5: Recovery From and then a whole bunch of stuff. So

1166
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 5: they said, will you write the Eating Disorder one? And

1167
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 5: I went eight keys? There's like two thousand keys to

1168
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 5: get better? What? And I thought about and thought about it,

1169
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 5: and ultimately I realized I could have these big categories

1170
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 5: like thoughts and feelings. That's a big category, and so

1171
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,919
Speaker 5: I came up with the eight that I thought were

1172
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 5: the most important. Nora calls them mantanita in a box,

1173
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 5: but I put what have I used over these years,

1174
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 5: these last like forty five years or so that I've

1175
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 5: been helping people get better from eating disorders? And one

1176
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 5: of them, key four is the thoughts and feelings thing.

1177
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 2: And just like separating yourself from them and kind of

1178
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 2: tapping into that. Y.

1179
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, how do you separate yourself from your thought and

1180
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 5: feelings because most people think they are their thoughts and.

1181
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 3: Feelings, right, Yeah, And I think that skill is important for,

1182
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 3: you know, coming out of a cult or high control

1183
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 3: group when we are in that vulnerable state. You know,

1184
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 3: we talked about cult hopping and how you can just

1185
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 3: end up in another thing. I think that skill of

1186
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 3: like recognizing you know, what you're thinking and what you're

1187
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 3: feeling and why you're taking the actions that you are

1188
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 3: is such an important skill for that as well, because

1189
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 3: you may it may help being it may help in

1190
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 3: being able to recognize, oh, this is this group just

1191
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 3: providing like another form of answers, or you know, is

1192
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 3: this am I am? I feeling overwhelmed in this group

1193
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 3: as well and staying because it feels familiar or whatever

1194
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 3: it may be. But just having that awareness to kind

1195
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 3: of step back and pause and think about where you're at.

1196
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 5: Yeah. I want to talk about something we didn't talk about,

1197
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 5: which is an uncanny experience that happened to me. I

1198
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 5: was so I wrote this book in nineteen ninety six,

1199
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 5: and then I wrote a new called Your Dieting Daughter,

1200
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 5: and I wrote a new version of it, and I

1201
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 5: think too about ten years later, two thousand and six.

1202
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 5: And in that book, I was trying to help parents

1203
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 5: understand this mindset, like the brainwashing that happens, the kinds

1204
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 5: of things that go on internally. And I came up

1205
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 5: with this thing that I took that I called the

1206
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 5: Thin Commandments, that I took from something, you know, the

1207
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 5: Tin Commandments, obviously, and it was things like, if you

1208
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 5: aren't all the stuff that I had heard, all the

1209
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 5: kind of things that I had heard people follow who

1210
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 5: had eating disorders, if you aren't thin, you aren't attractive.

1211
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 5: Being thins more important than anything. I'm looking at the list.

1212
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 5: Thou shall earn all food and shall not eat without

1213
01:03:56,360 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 5: feeling guilty. Thou shall not eat fattening food without punishing oneself. Afterwards,

1214
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 5: they'll show count calories and fat and restrict accordingly. You

1215
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 5: can't trust what other people say about your weight, all

1216
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 5: these things. So I did that to help parents kind

1217
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 5: of be able to challenge those thoughts, talk to their

1218
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 5: daughters about those thoughts, help them kind of deconstruct these

1219
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 5: thoughts and where's the healthy self in there? And pro

1220
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 5: Anna websites unbeknownst to me, and somewhere around two thousand

1221
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 5: and eight or nine, all of a sudden, I found

1222
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 5: out that they had taken this from the book not

1223
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 5: so No and put it on their sites. Is the

1224
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:45,919
Speaker 5: way to follow Anna, which was the you know anorexia.

1225
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 5: Oh no, I found out about it. So I had

1226
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 5: to ride and try to get them to get it off.

1227
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 5: You know, first of all, this is copywritten. You can't

1228
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 5: just take this stuff. And they printed it exactly. And

1229
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 5: I found out from a researcher at Stanford and Needing,

1230
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 5: the sort of researcher who was writing about it, and

1231
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 5: then found out that she was writing about pro anasyites

1232
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 5: talk about getting people in a cult. Whoever puts up

1233
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 5: a pro Ana site is creating a cult. Everybody hears

1234
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 5: that we follow And she said, then I was researching

1235
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 5: it and I found out you wrote it. Did you

1236
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 5: really write those? And I go, yeah, but they were

1237
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 5: written in a book to help parents come back those ideas. Wow,

1238
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 5: have to be careful when you are trying to talk

1239
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 5: about these deep sort of brainwashing kind of mantras or

1240
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 5: rules or dogmas or whatever you want to call it,

1241
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 5: because they can easily be co opted by the exact

1242
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 5: group and the exact thing you're trying to avoid.

1243
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 2: Right and ironically and just interestingly, I see a lot

1244
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 2: of girls on comments and videos just being like, oh

1245
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 2: my god. When I was fourteen years old, I was

1246
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 2: like the head of a pro amna, Like they kind

1247
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 2: of become the cult leaders, these tumbler girls or you

1248
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 2: know what I mean, And you're like, oh my god,

1249
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 2: it is this very like fourteen year old girl mindset

1250
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 2: and they're spreading the information and it's just it's so wild.

1251
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. So I mean, it's good that you're talking about

1252
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 5: it so people can begin to question, begin to see that,

1253
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 5: begin to see how they get co opted into that,

1254
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 5: and ultimately, for me, the healing, and this is really

1255
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 5: important to say, is not about I don't go into

1256
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 5: any situation with a client and say we're going to

1257
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 5: get rid of that part of you. What we're going

1258
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 5: to do is get rid of those disorted thoughts, those

1259
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 5: behaviors that that part of you thinks it has to do,

1260
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 5: because the part is there for a reason. You needed something,

1261
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 5: you needed something attended to, you felt unsafe, if you

1262
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 5: felt unworthy, uncared for whatever it is, that part of

1263
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 5: you gets to stay and we're gonna your healthy self

1264
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,479
Speaker 5: is gonna handle the things that come in your way.

1265
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 5: You don't have to use that part. That's just your

1266
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 5: alarm system. That's your radar to tell you when something

1267
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 5: you need something, we're gonna integrate it. So integration is

1268
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 5: my key for healing, not get rid of the eating

1269
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 5: disorder self. We're gonna integrate it back. So you're a

1270
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 5: whole person. Now you don't have these two kind of

1271
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 5: split parts. One that would care of your kid, or

1272
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 5: if you were a nanny, you would be able to

1273
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 5: take care of a kid, and yet you can't take

1274
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 5: care of yourself. That no longer happens. You become integrated

1275
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 5: and whole again. And I think that's important for people

1276
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 5: to hear.

1277
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 3: Just bringing it back to OCD one more time, you know,

1278
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 3: it's the fun. There's this just fundamental idea that like

1279
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 3: trying to eliminate thoughts doesn't work. Trying to like get

1280
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 3: rid of them or push them down or pretend they're

1281
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 3: not there just makes them come back even stronger. So

1282
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 3: the work is in acknowledging their existence and just like

1283
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 3: we said, learning how to respond to them differently. And

1284
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,439
Speaker 3: so so I relate to so much of a you're saying,

1285
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 3: and it sounds like such a helpful approach.

1286
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,280
Speaker 5: For there's resistance. I think there's less resistance because so

1287
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 5: I don't I don't go in fighting. We're going to

1288
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 5: take that away from you. I think that just brings

1289
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:16,919
Speaker 5: up resistance and especially fear. And again, you mentioned abusive

1290
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 5: relationship just briefly a while ago, and you know, I

1291
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,759
Speaker 5: have this other analogy where I have people right down.

1292
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 5: You know, I'll get a piece of paper, write down

1293
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 5: all the reasons someone won't leave an abusive relationship, and

1294
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 5: you know, fear of the unknown. You know, it's after

1295
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 5: it gets really bad, it kind of gets better. At times.

1296
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 5: I don't think I deserve anything better. I'm afraid of

1297
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 5: what might happen all these things. And then I just

1298
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 5: take the heading off and put why don't you leave

1299
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 5: your eating disorder? And there are it is so similar,

1300
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 5: the unknown and all that stuff. So it's looking at okay.

1301
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,600
Speaker 5: Once you get people to realize they're kind of in

1302
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 5: an abusive relationship with themselves, if they've taken on this

1303
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 5: culted like way of treating themselves and in this place, again,

1304
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 5: not a leader, but their own internalization of the thin ideal,

1305
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,440
Speaker 5: of the pursuit of thinness, of the need for control

1306
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 5: or whatever, all the rituals.

1307
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you've pointed on something very important

1308
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 2: that kind of summarizes everything we've learned and all of

1309
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:31,719
Speaker 2: our almost two hundred episodes of doing this podcast, which

1310
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 2: is that it's all kind of about the fear of

1311
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 2: the unknown.

1312
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 7: You know, we're all scared. It's scary.

1313
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:40,280
Speaker 2: Life is gray, not black and white, and we get

1314
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: these maladaptive tendencies sometimes to try to deal with that fear.

1315
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 2: And the one thing that we keep consistently coming back

1316
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: to as an antidote is curiosity. And you know, just

1317
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 2: the curiosity seems to be the interesting.

1318
01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:59,679
Speaker 7: Step forward that is always there.

1319
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, good thing, that's why we Yeah. Yeah, one thing

1320
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 5: that I never thought of until this we were having

1321
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 5: this conversation. I train eating disorder coaches. Now that's what

1322
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 5: I do. And before I started training eating disorder coaches,

1323
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 5: there weren't eating disorder coaches. Just like before I opened

1324
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 5: residential for eating disorders, there was no residential. People had

1325
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 5: to go to hospital like ugh, hysterial hospital. So there's

1326
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:28,679
Speaker 5: this other gap in the field, and I'm looking at it, going,

1327
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 5: why are there sober coaches and life coaches and all

1328
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 5: this stuff, but no eating disorder coaches. I have my

1329
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,799
Speaker 5: theories about why not, but part of it is people

1330
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 5: were afraid of taking people who had recovered from an

1331
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 5: eating disorder and giving them a position of helping others because,

1332
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 5: as I said earlier, people with eating disorders could help

1333
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 5: or hurt each other. But I make really sure that

1334
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 5: they're recovered, and people if I go forward with good integrity,

1335
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm getting it back. And they have

1336
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,600
Speaker 5: to say they're recovered for at least two years, and

1337
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 5: they go through this rigorous training program, but they are

1338
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,959
Speaker 5: out there. And I just realized one of the reasons

1339
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,719
Speaker 5: that I think my eating disorder recovery coaches are doing

1340
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 5: so well is that they're like people who are in

1341
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 5: the cult, and they're helping people get out of it.

1342
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,040
Speaker 5: And I never thought of that until now. I mean,

1343
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 5: obviously I get and there's a lot of research on

1344
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 5: peer support, like how helpful it is if you've gone

1345
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,680
Speaker 5: through something and you try to help somebody else. And

1346
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,639
Speaker 5: when I first was out about my own eating disorder.

1347
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 5: A lot of clinicians told me you shouldn't tell people

1348
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 5: you're recovered. And again we're going back like forty years,

1349
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 5: you shouldn't tell people you had meaning. So I'm like,

1350
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:44,679
Speaker 5: why not no, because you're supposed to be a blank

1351
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 5: slate as a therapist and all of a sud you know,

1352
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:49,880
Speaker 5: you just don't self disclose that much. But I thought

1353
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,639
Speaker 5: that's really stupid. I mean, why would I not tell them?

1354
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,600
Speaker 5: And my first international talk, people came up to me

1355
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 5: and were like, well, I never met anybody who's recovered.

1356
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 5: And I go, how we to be in a field

1357
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,240
Speaker 5: and you're treating people for an illness that you've never

1358
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 5: met anybody who recovered from it? Just was weird. Yeah,

1359
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 5: how I realize all these people who are in any

1360
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 5: disorders were If we use the definition that we're using today,

1361
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 5: that you know, follow me senter principles, the moral code,

1362
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 5: holding to certain ideals. You're either in or you're out.

1363
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 5: There's definitely rules to follow all that stuff. If we

1364
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 5: use that, then these people, these recovered people who are

1365
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 5: now out there as coaches, were in it and they're

1366
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 5: in a prime position to help people go. Yeah. I

1367
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 5: was there too. I was there for reasons. I get

1368
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 5: while you're in it, I don't have any judgment about

1369
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 5: you being in it, and if I got out, so

1370
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 5: can you. And I just realized that's kind of a

1371
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 5: cool thing.

1372
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:52,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

1373
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I feel like we just covered one

1374
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:01,439
Speaker 2: of the most interesting topics and my opinion, so I'm

1375
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:04,559
Speaker 2: very satisfied. It was really helpful for people in the

1376
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 2: two y two group that I grew up in when

1377
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 2: we started to support group where people who had left

1378
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 2: could help people who were leaving, and so that's one

1379
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 2: kind of really mass like well, you know, more people

1380
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 2: started to trickle out. So yeah, always always finding people

1381
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 2: that have gone before you.

1382
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 5: It's hard to explain when when you have a good

1383
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 5: sense of yourself, you know, like why did I ever

1384
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 5: get involved in that? How did I ever get involved

1385
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:31,760
Speaker 5: in that? Why did I even believe that? Even for

1386
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 5: myself right now, so many years of anorexia, it's hard

1387
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 5: for me to think about. I can remember it, but

1388
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 5: it's hard for me to think about why did I

1389
01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 5: think that was a good thing?

1390
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 7: You know, right?

1391
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:47,560
Speaker 5: And so I think it's kind of it's hopeful, there's motivation,

1392
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 5: it can be inspiring it's shame abatement for sure, to

1393
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 5: have somebody who's been in it, sort of like in

1394
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 5: the twelve Step, Been there, Done that, they say that

1395
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:00,600
Speaker 5: all time, you know, been there, done that. This is

1396
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,880
Speaker 5: a little harder though, because with drugs and alcohol you

1397
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:05,759
Speaker 5: just stop and you get them out of your life.

1398
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 5: You can't do that with food, and.

1399
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 2: You can't do that with meaning, which cults give you right,

1400
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 2: you need meaning, you need food, So it's like totally,

1401
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 2: it's a whole different yeah, set of stuff.

1402
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:20,439
Speaker 5: Well, thanks for having me on I As you can see,

1403
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 5: I was excited to be here because I think this

1404
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 5: is what I was meant to do on this planet.

1405
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 5: There's no doubt about it.

1406
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 8: I know.

1407
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 5: It's it's just my dharma. That's what I'll say.

1408
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 3: Where can people find your books or your work?

1409
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 5: I mean, you can easily go into bookstores and still

1410
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 5: find them. You can get them on Amazon, you can

1411
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 5: go to the booksellers like I mean, any bookstores like

1412
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 5: Barnes and Noble and stuff usually have them, or if

1413
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 5: they don't have them, they'll order them. But often especially

1414
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 5: the Eight Keys is pretty available. That's one of the

1415
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 5: most recent ones. But people can always go on my

1416
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 5: website Carolyncostin dot com and the books are on there

1417
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 5: and you can buy the books on there. You can

1418
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 5: see all about coaching on there and how I trained

1419
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 5: coaches to do this work that we were talking about

1420
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 5: de brainwashing, you know, decoding.

1421
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for joining us so.

1422
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 5: Much, Carolyn, Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.

1423
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 3: Thanks to Carolyn for coming on today. Megan, this is

1424
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 3: obviously a particular special episode for you. So what are

1425
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 3: some of your takeaways from this discussion?

1426
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 2: All of it, but in particular, just how cruel our

1427
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 2: mind becomes when it's scared, and how it can turn

1428
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 2: against itself in a way that feels safer to you,

1429
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 2: but it's actually so dangerous and just that weird dichotomy

1430
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 2: that humans hold.

1431
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like we can either turn against someone on

1432
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 3: the outside or we can turn against ourselves. And either

1433
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 3: way it feels like, Yeah, you like, in order to

1434
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:06,719
Speaker 3: protect yourself, you gotta defend against something or something.

1435
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I feel like and cults in particular, you know,

1436
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 2: the leader is not nice, right, and we keep coming back.

1437
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 7: You know, these.

1438
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 2: Trauma bonds with ourselves or with a leaders, it's a

1439
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 2: it's a safer feeling bond that people are able to

1440
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 2: risk more for.

1441
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 7: And it's so odd, it seems so counterintuitive.

1442
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously in cults the leader like tricks people

1443
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 3: over time by seeming sure, seeming really safe at first.

1444
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's like that flooding with like such ecstasy

1445
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:44,200
Speaker 3: and such a charged emotional experience that can actually be

1446
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:47,639
Speaker 3: the red flag that means later on you will be true.

1447
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:48,679
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1448
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 2: I keep thinking of my cult where there was no

1449
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 2: there was none of that, but there was a very

1450
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,760
Speaker 2: like fear based culture that made me feel safer than

1451
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:00,880
Speaker 2: when I tried to to toe out of it.

1452
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 3: Well, you know, you know, it's interesting just to draw

1453
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,679
Speaker 3: one more parallel, Like, you know, we've talked to experts

1454
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 3: on conspiracy theorists, and we've talked to former conspiracy theorists,

1455
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 3: and what they'll kind of say is like, yeah, it

1456
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 3: made me feel like it could make sense of the world,

1457
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 3: or it made it makes people feel like they can

1458
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 3: make sense of the world. They have some kind of

1459
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 3: structure answer or like feeling a specialness, except that it

1460
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 3: gets taken to an extreme and then suddenly they are

1461
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 3: just living in fear all the time, which is not

1462
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 3: a safe right, healthy place to be living and which

1463
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 3: actually makes us you know, it's very disruptive and it's

1464
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 3: very dysregulating, but it's like it can be so hard

1465
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 3: to see where that line is because it feels like

1466
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 3: it's helping at first, you know.

1467
01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:48,880
Speaker 2: Totally, and you get so much positive reinforcement sometimes from it,

1468
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:53,040
Speaker 2: like I say, right did after becoming a little bit

1469
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 2: chubby in eighth grade and then suddenly not being chubby anymore.

1470
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:01,200
Speaker 2: It was a huge jump in my experience of life.

1471
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:06,599
Speaker 2: So right, you know, it's all it's all in these

1472
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 2: wicked little systems that our brains somehow respond to.

1473
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, but that's why we talk about it and

1474
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 3: try to make sense of it all.

1475
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 6: Yes, that is why we do this.

1476
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 7: Thank you for reminding me.

1477
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,000
Speaker 4: Well, Thank you so much for listening.

1478
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 2: We hope to see you again here next week and

1479
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 2: as always, remember to.

1480
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 7: Follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

1481
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:44,639
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me is produced

1482
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 3: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1483
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 4: The special thanks to Stacy Para, and.

1484
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:51,760
Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1485
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1486
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 2: Twitter at trust Me Cult pod or on TikTok At

1487
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:00,240
Speaker 2: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1488
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 3: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1489
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1490
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 2: Hicks on Twitter.

1491
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:10,639
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.