1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Also media, Hello and welcome to it could happen here. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Sage. I run andrewism over on YouTube, but 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm here on this podcast with the. 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 2: One and only Mia Wong, who does this podcast most 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: of the time. 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And I think you and I both have 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: something in common, which is that we are people, and 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: we are two people. But the world has a lot 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: more than just two people. It's a really convoluted way 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: of saying that. For this episode, we're going to be 11 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: talking about population. You know, how many of people there are, 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: and how many of them there will or will not 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: be in the future, and all the different conversations that 14 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: end up happening around that, most of which suck. It's 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: a time true, Yeah, I mean, every single one of 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: us humans is a product of billions of years of reproduction. 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: But for most of that reproduction, population growth was pretty slow. 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: You know, the world's population is estimated at around five 19 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: million in the year eight thousand BC. So five million 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: is like the population of New Zealand right now, or 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: Costa Rica, or Ireland or Norway, but spread across the 22 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: entire planet. Can you get so many people who are 23 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: alive in the year one. See though, thirty million, that's 24 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: actually an underestimate. It's one hundred and eighty eight million, jeez. Right, 25 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: So that's between the current population of Bangladesh and the 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: current population of Brazil, which are at one hundred and 27 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: sixty nine million and two hundred and thirty million, respectively. 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: But that's spread across the entire planet. So I mean, 29 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: imagine that, you know, a whole world of people so 30 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: spread out. I mean they were concentrat into the Narios, 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: of course, but you had all this vast forest land 32 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: and planes and entire continents that barely had people compared to today. 33 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: And the reason the population grew so slowly was really because, 34 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: I mean, humans have always been doing the do you know, 35 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: but death was kind of a very present phenomenon. You know. 36 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: You had famines, you had plagues, you had the occasional war, 37 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: and you especially had a lot of infant mortality. Yeah, 38 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: and that's what really kept populations in check. You know. 39 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: I remember hearing I don't even remember who it was, 40 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: but this one person had like nineteen children and only 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: eight of them survived to adulthood. 42 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, they honestly did pretty good, like by those metrics. 43 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: Like yeah, then infant mortality rate was unbelievably high. 44 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,119 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, family's had a lot of children, but only 45 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: a few of them made it to adulthood. Thanks to 46 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: the industrialization, things were able to change a bit. You know. 47 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: We improved agriculture, we invented refrigeration, we got better fertilizer, 48 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: and most importantly, we developed advancements in sanitasia. You know, 49 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: doctors were actually washing their hands. You know, we developed vaccines, 50 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: so children were dying of measles and mumps. Imagine that, 51 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: good Lord. And we also had an overall improvement in medicine. 52 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: You know, one of the greatest inventions of humanity, I 53 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: think is the vaccine. And it's such a wonderful thing 54 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: that there's not this massive movement of people who challenge 55 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: it's very legitimacy in this day and age and threaten 56 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: all of our lives as a result. You know, imagine 57 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: being in that world. God. So, we eventually hit one 58 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: billion in the year eighteen oh four, which is just 59 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: below the current population of China, and things really began 60 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: to accelerate from there. We ended up creating something called 61 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: a Jacob of exponential population growth. Thanks to like I said, 62 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: the decline in infant mortality and improvements and fertility and 63 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: food production, and the other billionaire milestone started rolling it. 64 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: By eighteen oh four, Kiti had just gained its independence. 65 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: Napoleon the First was crowned Emperor France, and Lewis and 66 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: Clark had begun their expedition across America. In nineteen twenty seven, 67 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: that's one hundred and twenty three years later, we hit 68 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: two billion people. You know, by then we had Trotsky 69 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: being expelled from the USSR, which had just been founded. 70 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: We had Charles Linnenberg completing the first solo NonStop flight 71 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: across the Atlantic Ocean. And then also in nineteen twenty seven, 72 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: we had the release of the first feature length film 73 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: to fe just synchronized sound for dialogue quite the time, 74 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: to Be Alive. The fast forward to thirty three years later, 75 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty, and we hit three billion people. By then, 76 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: Nigeria had just gained its independence. JFK was in the 77 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: White House, ham the chimpanzee went to space, and the 78 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: FDA approved the first ever both control pill. But the 79 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: birth control pill didn't really kick in in terms of 80 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: you know, hampering our growth for some time. By nineteen 81 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: seventy four. Fourteen years later, we hit four billion people. 82 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: By then Nixon had resigned to he had invaded Cyprus 83 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: Portugal overthrow its dictatorship. The Godfather Part two came out 84 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: and Abba was still at the top of the charts. 85 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: Nineteen eighty seven, thirteen years later, when we got five 86 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: billion people. That's when we had most of the major 87 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: colonies around the world gained the independence or having already 88 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: had gained the independence. You know Thatcher was beginning her 89 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: third term and the Simpson first appeared on TV. Twelve 90 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: years later, in nineteen ninety nine, we had the Y 91 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: two K panic, the Clinton and Peachmonth, the SpongeBob premiere, 92 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: the introduction of the euro, and six billion people made 93 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: their debut on planets. Twenty eleven, twelve years later, we 94 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: hit seven billion people, and that was in the midst 95 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: of the Arab Spring, a tsunami hit in Japan, the 96 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: Occupy movement, the premiere of Game of Thrones, and really 97 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of smartphones and social media taken over the world. Finally, 98 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: by twenty twenty two, which is eleven years after twenty eleven, 99 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: we hit eight billion people. Amidst Russia invading Ukraine, the 100 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: growing popularity of TikTok and Elon's purchase of Twitter. So 101 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: from eighteen four to twenty twenty two, we went from 102 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: one billion people to eight billion people. And the U 103 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: when expected to grow by about one point nine billion 104 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: between now and twenty one hundred, so we'll end up 105 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: reaching from eight point two billion people to ten point 106 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: two billion people. And population is projected to peak at 107 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: ten point three billion in twenty eighty four and then 108 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: decline to ten point two billion through the end of 109 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: the century. So with this rapid population growth, there has 110 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: been a lot of faars surrounding overpopulation, particularly in the 111 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: late twentieth century and early two thousand, so there was 112 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: a lot of conversation around, you know, this population bomb, 113 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: this worry that there were too many people. Now, at 114 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: least early on in the population boom, I think it 115 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: makes some sense to have concerns. You know, there had 116 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: never been this many people on the eighth at any 117 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: point in time prior. You know, if you're watching the 118 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: numbers climb and climb and climb, you might have thought 119 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: we were headed straight for a planet covered in city 120 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: and some kind of collapse. But even before we even 121 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: hit a billion people the idea of overpopulation being a 122 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: significant problem wasn't new. In late seventeen hundreds, Thomas Mauthus 123 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: argued that population would always outpaced food supply, and his 124 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: prediction was that there'd be twin people, not enough resources, 125 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: and a decline into famine, disease and mass death. Now 126 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: he was obviously proven wrong, but in nineteenth century Britain, 127 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: Marthus's ideas helped justify the harsh welfare policies that that 128 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: government ended up implemented, like the spread of workhouses around 129 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: the country. Also, we speak about faminis if it's this 130 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: natural phenomenon that can't be helped, that is just almost 131 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: like a hurricane or a torny zero. But famines are 132 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: usually not actually the result of not having enough food. 133 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: Amartya Sen found that famines usually happened despite food surpluses. 134 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: The issue is usually distribution and not scarcity, you know, 135 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: a famous example being you know, during the Irish Famine, 136 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: Ireland was still exporting tons of food to feed its 137 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: colonial overlord. So we fast forward to nineteen sixty eight 138 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: and the biblegist Paul Erlich publishes the population Bomb. He 139 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: describes visiting Delhi and feeling the crush of overpopulation, convinced 140 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: that mass deviation was imminent in the nineteen seventies. Now, 141 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: I think that book that he published was one of 142 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: the main influences in the widespread panic around overpopulation. You know, 143 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: governments start to scramble about. A lot of policies were born, 144 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: likely from people reading that very book. You know, some 145 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: of these policies were fairly benign. You know, you promote 146 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: family planning, you improve access contraceptives, you improve education for 147 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: women especially, but other approaches were very harsh and brutal. 148 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: You know, you had sterilization campaigns, forced sterilization campaigns taking 149 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: place in India and Puerto Rico and in the United States. 150 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: China's one child policy also gets a lot of attention, 151 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: but it was only one example of a widespread brutality 152 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: around the impositions placed on women, especially in that time, 153 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: the fear of too many people and that anxiety leading 154 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: to the control of women and their bodies. And it's 155 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: a scary prospect, especially if you were a minority in 156 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: this time, if you were a cultural, racial, or religious minority, 157 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: Because it made very ordinary human activity, things like moving around, 158 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: having children, just existing being it seemed like an existential 159 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: threat to civilization, to humanity that needed to be dealt 160 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: with by any means necessary. So they had some positive 161 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: outcomes of positive outcomes of the overpopulation concerned. You know, 162 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: you had pushes Foreman's empowerment, you had the proposal of 163 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: improved urbanization to reduce the sprawl of human activity. You 164 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: also have people proposing things like extraterrestrial settlement, which you know, 165 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: it's not really realistic as a solution for a multitude 166 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: of valid reasons. Yeah, I think it's really funny, you know, 167 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: whenever people push that sort of yeah, humans are destined 168 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: for the stars kind of narrative. You know, it's a story, 169 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: a really powerful story coming out of science fiction, and 170 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: it's good that it has inspired people to learn more 171 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: about base and you know that their lives to the 172 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: study of the stars and that kind of thing. But 173 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: this idea that would to be shipping off like millions 174 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: of people off planet to settle on other planets, I 175 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: think is pretty safely in the realm of science fiction. 176 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a full like get back to me. In 177 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 2: a thousand years, we could baby start talking about moving 178 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: like thousands of people. 179 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, even thousands or hundreds of people. I mean, we 180 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: don't have those those massive generationships. We can't even get 181 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: those off the ground at this stage in our spacecraft. 182 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: And we also have a lot of issues to resolve 183 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: on Earth before we spread our problems across the galaxy 184 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned. But beyond these solutions, the 185 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: ideas and public discourses around population have also boothed a 186 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: lot of conspiracy theories. You know, I'm sure you might 187 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: have heard a few of them in your time. 188 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: Oh boy, yep. This is one of the big Alex 189 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: Jones things. For example, So he's convinced that there's like 190 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: a giant plot by the globalist to kill off an 191 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: enormous part of human population to like stop over population 192 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: or something. 193 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: It's yeah, yeah, Honestly, any combination of conspiracies concern hobby 194 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: smushed together to fit that kind of narrative. And they 195 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: can talk about all the vaccine sterilizing people, the chemtrails, 196 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: the five Gita was, the Bill Gates microchips, they are 197 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: even the food supply. All these things a leegedly being 198 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: used to sterilize people. I'm not to say that there 199 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: isn't validity to any claims of the things that we consume, 200 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: contributing to lower fertility, the fact that we clothe ourselves 201 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 1: in like polyester. You know, we still have a full 202 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: idea of the impact of microplastics on our bodies. You know, 203 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: there's valid concerns about some of the consequences of the 204 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: ultra processed foods that you know, fill out grocery shells. 205 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: But that's just the sad thing about conspiracy theories. You know, 206 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: they have some kernels of truth mixed in to boaster 207 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: their validity, but then they mix it up with a 208 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: bunch of garbage about you know that's a nonsense. Yeah. 209 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: And then of course, I mean some of these consiracy 210 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: theories are kind of benign, you know, like if you 211 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: think it's five gtaas I guess you'd put a I 212 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: don't know, a tinfoil hat on your junk. 213 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: But I mean, to be fair, there was one of 214 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: the five g guys who did like blow himself up 215 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: at a giant car bomb. I did not hear about 216 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: that a couple of years ago down. Oh yeah, luckily 217 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: he only killed himself. But giant giant car bomb in 218 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: the middle of I want to say, Memphis or something 219 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: down Yeah, But yeah, so like every once in a 220 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: while you get some real oh boys stuff from that. 221 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean, honestly, people could take even the 222 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: simplest things and turn it into a threat to themselves 223 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: and others if they're not in the right head space, 224 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: so they haven't been given the right sports. Sadly and obviously, 225 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: like none all the conspiracies are be nine. I mean, 226 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: if you have people rejecting vaccines, you know, it's almost 227 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: like what in the world that I alluded to ulia, 228 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: you know, where we have a residence and measles for example. 229 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim O'Neil, who's the Deputy Secretary of Health and 230 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: Human Services and the acting director for the CDC, literally 231 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: on Monday called for splitting the MMR vaccine it's multiple vaccines, like, 232 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: which is basically which is just straight up the Andrew 233 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: Wakefield I think, like I said this on seven podcasts 234 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: on this show now, but this is literally just straight 235 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: up the Andrew Wakefield anti vaccine thing from the original 236 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: giant anti vaccine panic in the nineties. 237 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: That was the autism vaccine thing. 238 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like and this is this is this is 239 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: the guy who's currently running the CDC. It's just being like, 240 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: no yeah, you should do this thing. 241 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: That's yeah, yeah, you guys are cooked. 242 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: Yeah again, this thing that was developed specifically so that 243 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: Andrew Wakefield could sell his own vaccine. 244 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's the thing. If 245 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: I was conspiracy brain, I would say that, actually, the 246 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: popularization of vaccine conspiracies on social media sites contribute to 247 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: exactly that kind of population control that those same conspiracy 248 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: theorists famonga about. But that's if I was conspiracy brain, 249 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: which I'm not. 250 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 2: God, so someone someone believes that somewhere, absolutely, there was 251 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: someone who's like, the anti vaxxers are a conspiracy to 252 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: call them goal population or something. 253 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: Like, because I mean, we have this very straightforwardly effective 254 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: human and one of the best and not in the 255 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: history of humankind. And you're telling me that a couple 256 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: of people on Facebook and are responsible for the entire 257 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: government rejecting the effectiveness of vaccines and you know, jeopardizing 258 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: the healthy entire population. 259 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, the true believers are 260 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: in charge now. 261 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: Indeed, indeed they are true believers. And of course, people 262 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: who stand to profit from the dip in the sales 263 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: of paracetamol and whatever else. So they're those conspiracies about population. 264 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: And then there's the typical far right Nazi conspiracies about 265 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: great replacement, right, the idea that's shadoway elites orchestrating falling 266 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: blue rates among white populations while encouraging immigration from the 267 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: population boomen global South. I mean, of course, not all 268 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: the global self is Boomen population wise. A lot of 269 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: places are also experienced in decline. It's a global problem. 270 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: But we're going to get to that. Unconnected, of course, 271 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: to those great replacement type. So you have the eco 272 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: fash with their worries about the environmental impact of population 273 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: and their twisted belief that environmental collapse could be solved 274 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: by reducing the number of people, which usually ends up 275 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: target and marginalized groups, which is exactly the kind of 276 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: thinking that inspired real violence, like with the Christian shooter 277 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. And of course, the actual drivers of 278 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: ecological collapse are not poor families in India or Africa 279 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: having too many kids. It's the over consumption of the 280 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: global North. You know, if you actually wanted to reduce consumption, 281 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: reduce the impact of population on the planet, are you 282 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: going to start with fewer people? Are going to start 283 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: with fewer billionaires flying private jets. You know, it's not 284 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: about the number of people they headcount, it's about the 285 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: lifestyles and the systems that support those lifestyles. You know, 286 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: believing population is a very cheap, simplistic and cowardly get 287 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: out of jail free code for the rich minority that 288 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: drive this systemic crisis. Yep. 289 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: The thing about this, obviously is that if you believe 290 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,479 Speaker 2: that you need to reduce the human population, that it's 291 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: your obligation to go first. 292 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: Yes, we we are going to talk about those types 293 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: of people in the next episode. But you know, speaking 294 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: of the overpopulation, I think nowadays at least an opposite 295 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: concern that is dominating in the headlines. You know, in wealthier, 296 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: more developed countries, fertility tends to be lower, and that's 297 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: tied to things like back to education, more women working, 298 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: urban living, greater choices, greater access to contraception, et cetera. 299 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: But in less developed countries, fertility is usually higher because 300 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: children are often seen as both help and hand and 301 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: future caregivers, and education and access to birth control are 302 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: more limited. But the global fertility rate is now stardily 303 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: dropping due to that increasing development creating access to birth control, 304 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: create education of women's rights, and there's a fair nowadays 305 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: where there won't be enough people to support the system 306 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: as it has been built. Member capitalism is predicated on 307 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: endless growth. When its population starts to decline naturally, everything 308 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 1: that is building towards in terms of the amount of consumers, 309 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: the amount of infrastructure, the amount of workers, those are 310 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: not going to be there anymore, especially as more and 311 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: more people end up dipping out of the workforce as 312 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: they age. So ins twenty three, the global average had 313 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: dropped to just two point three children poor women, which 314 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: is less than half of what it was sixty years ago. 315 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: According to the United Nations, facility will keep falling throughout 316 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: the century, and by the year twenty one hundred, the 317 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: global average is expected to dip below replacement level of 318 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: two point one to about one point eight children poor woman. Now, 319 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: some countries are already there. Japan sits at a one 320 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: point two children poor woman, Italy, Spain, and much of 321 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,719 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe are well below one point five. South Korea 322 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: is famously a demographic outlier at zero point seven children 323 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: poor woman, which is the lowest facility rate in the world, 324 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: and That means obviously that on average, Korean women are 325 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: having less than one child each for very valid reasons, 326 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: I might add, considering the economic and cultural conditions in 327 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: that country. Now, I don't live in Eastern Europe or 328 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: Southern Europe or East Asia. I live in the Caribbean. 329 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: I live in Chernan, Tobago, but speak it anecdotally at least, 330 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: which obviously is not representative of the full picture. I 331 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: can count, maybe on one hand, the number of people 332 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: I know my age who think that they'll be able 333 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: to bring children into the world, whether they want to 334 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: or not. You know, very few people I know actually 335 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: want children, or if they do want children, they don't 336 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: think they'll be able to afford to have children. But 337 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: maybe that's a selfishness. 338 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: What do you think I mean, I don't know, Like 339 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: I am not interacting with a representative example of the population. 340 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: But no, yeah, I mean it's a lot of people 341 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: who are like no, and it's too expensive. It sucks. 342 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 2: I don't want to deal with this. But again, like, 343 00:22:53,280 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: not not a representative sample here, Yeah. 344 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean you could just look at the economy. 345 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: Things have been getting worse for my entire life. You know, 346 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 1: there hasn't been any point in my life where anyone 347 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: in my generation could look around honestly and say, yeah, 348 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, this is we be cooking. You know, it's 349 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: time to double double it. You know, let's have a child. 350 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: You know, the housing situation has gotten worse, the cost 351 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: of living as a whole has gotten worse, child care 352 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: costs have gotten worse. And of course, outside of that 353 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: economic stuff, there's also cultural attitude shifts and people realizing 354 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: I don't need to have a child to be fulfilled, 355 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: to find meaning. You know, people are able to pursue 356 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: higher education, and also they're more educated about the process 357 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: of child bearing in general, including the very valid medical 358 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: concerns surrounding that whole process. I mean, if I were 359 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: a woman, I would not want to have a child. 360 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: You know, the consequences on their bodies, on their minds, 361 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: and their health, the risks to their very life are 362 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: not something that can be swept aside as it was previously. 363 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: People are aware of it now, People are talking about 364 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: it now, and they are empowered to make decisions that 365 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: be right for them. You know, a lot of people 366 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: are also very much focused on their careers, either by 367 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: choice or because they don't have any other choice but 368 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: to focus on putting food on the table. You know, 369 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: people are also getting married later, and as a whole, 370 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: we have shifted to what a more individual society. So 371 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, in the past you did have the extended families, 372 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: the closet communities that made raising children a bit more manageable. 373 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: But today it's a bit rarer to find, and you 374 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: send to see a lot more nuclear families or even 375 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: just individuals going at it a lowan you know, less 376 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: support and more isolation, and so it makes it very difficult. 377 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: And then there's the existential angst of it all. You know, 378 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: I can't forget the fact that they are multiple wars 379 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: waging around the world. You know, there's a lot of 380 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: political instability in much of the world, and of course 381 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: the biggest issue of all climate change, which makes it honestly, 382 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: it makes it feel it responsible to even think about 383 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: bringing a child into this mess. So a declining fertility, 384 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: a decline in population, it has the government's panicing. You know, 385 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: China went from having decades of a one child policy 386 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: to now desperately trying to encourage people to have more babies. 387 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: They're offering cash bonuses and housing books and extended parent 388 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: to leave. But it's not really working. You know, as 389 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: populations are aging, there's a lot more elderly people to 390 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: care for and fewer workinish people to support them. So 391 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: that is you know, a recipe for pension crises and 392 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: labor shortages and spiral and healthcare costs. So some governments 393 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: are even trying to raise the retirement age, which, as 394 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: France and their protests have shown, is not going to 395 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: go over well with much of the population. Nobody wants 396 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: to work extra five years and extra ten years more 397 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: when they've already put so much of their lives to 398 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: ease dead end pointless and you know, mentally and physically 399 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: dreaming tasks that really just line the pockets of their bosses. 400 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: It is worthporting out the last year there was a 401 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 2: pretty massive race in the retirement age people in China. 402 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 2: That's being phased in a way where's going to take 403 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: over the course of fifteen years. It goes up gradually 404 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 2: to sort of like spread out the anger over it. 405 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 2: But yeah, it is worth noting that China's is like 406 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 2: significantly increased or is going to significantly increase over the 407 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: course of the next fifteen years. 408 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: M Yeah. And then on the other side of things, 409 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: there is in the retirement age now, but the young 410 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: people who are working today are more than likely not 411 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: going to get any kind of pension. Yeah, you know, 412 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: rather the world of my sixties don't look like the 413 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: world of my twenties. That would be my preference. So 414 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: I would rather that we've reached a point as a 415 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: society where pensions are not the necessary band aid that 416 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: they are right now. But until then, you know, there's 417 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: quite the powder keg. Yeah. We also have in Eastern Europe, 418 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, you have countries rolling out pro natalist policies 419 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: that tie financial support directly to family size. I'm going 420 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 1: to get a bit more into pronatalists in the next episode. 421 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: But there's also the darker side of that pronatalist push 422 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: in terms of the policies meant to reverse the population decline. 423 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: Some governments, instead of making life better for potential appearance, 424 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: are criminalizing. They are turning to anti choice policies. There 425 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: is t to abortion, their limited reproductive rights. They're demonizing 426 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: child free lifestyles. Russia actually recently criminalized what they called 427 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: child the free propaganda, you know. Yeah, and then this 428 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: is also part of a broader conversation about population where 429 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: they have the immigration concerns as a political flashpoint because 430 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: a lot of wealthy countries, because of their population decline, 431 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: are starting to rely more on immigrants to keep their 432 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,239 Speaker 1: economies going. But as a flip side, that tends to 433 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: fuel backlash from the far hid groups who are able 434 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: to frame it as a threat to national identity, and 435 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: because the system of the states and capitalism is not 436 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: interested in actually taking care of people, those immigrants become 437 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: a very useful scapegoat. You know, obviously I'm in support 438 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: of people moving and living wherever they want to move 439 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: and live as they please. I don't believe in borders, 440 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: especially as the climate consequences are hitting those of us 441 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: in the global boost. But I also I'm not a 442 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: fan of the way that some progressives end up talking 443 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: about immigration, where they act as if, you know, the 444 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: global sealth is like a population bank that wealthy countries 445 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: could tap into and you know, pull population from, regardless 446 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: of the consequences on the home countries of these people. 447 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, let immigrants come, and I'm all 448 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: for that, but then it's also like your your government 449 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: is destabilizing their governments, your your system, your economic system, 450 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: and the global economic systems making life in those countries unlivable. 451 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: And I think the priority also needs to be on 452 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: dealing with that issue and not just shrugging and say, well, 453 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, at least immigrants are able to help our 454 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,959 Speaker 1: economy stay aflut even as their countries languish and suffer. 455 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: So to kind of wrap things up, where does this 456 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: all leave us? You know, for centuries we feared having 457 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: too many people, and now we're signed a fair having 458 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: two few people, and both anxieties are shaping policy, fuel 459 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: and conspiracy theories and sparking culture wars. And whether the 460 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: future holds overcrowded cities or ghost towns really depends on 461 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: the direction of politics, economy, culture, and urban designs teach. 462 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: On the next episode, I'm going to be talking about 463 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: the ideas around population, the pro natalists and the anti natalists. 464 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: But until then, I've been Andrew Sage here with Mia 465 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: Wong on it Could Happen Here Peace. 466 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 467 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 468 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 3: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio, app, 469 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 3: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 470 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 3: now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly 471 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 3: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.