1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: We've had a peaceful transition of power in this country 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: uninterrupted since The first president who really matters in this 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: story is the one who loses John Adams. He loses 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: in the House of Representatives to Thomas Jefferson, and he 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: yields power in the democracy. One side must be willing 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: to lose to accept the results. Those are the words 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: of my friend and veteran political strategist Steve Schmidt when 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: we spoke the day before the election. The lead up 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: to this election has been like nothing we have ever seen. 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: We've got a deeply divided country and incumbent who has 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: bucked every possible norm out there, and for most of us, 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: we've been pushed to the brink this year. Our schedules, 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: our calendars, are daily lives are two d is totally changed. 14 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: So we're trying to take a different approach with this podcast. 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: We're going to dive into these issues. We're gonna get 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: straight to the point, and then we're gonna leave it 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: there and give you time to think. On this episode, 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: we're going way back in time one week to make 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: sense of this election and President Trump's loss. I'm Stephanie Rule, 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: MSNBC anchor and NC News Senior correspondent, and this is 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think and I Heart Radio. 22 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: With so much at stake in this election, I wanted 23 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: to talk to my friend Steve Schmidt. He spent the 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: majority of his career working as a Republican strategist. He 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: worked on key campaigns like President George W. Bush, California 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the late Arizona Senator John McCain. Now, 27 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: Steve is the co founder of the Absolutely Savage Lincoln Project, 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: which has been committed to defeating Donald Trump and really 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: Republicans across the board. He's also the co host of 30 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: the new political podcast Battleground with David Pluff and Steve Schmidt, 31 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: also here on I Heart Radio. So for me, I 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Steve on the eve of this 33 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: election and then right after it was called, and I 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: wanted to know how he felt at this time about 35 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: our country. When we look back at this cycle and 36 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: it's going to be a mashup of events, what do 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: you want people to remember about the way this election 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: feels at this moment. This is the most important election 39 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: since eighteen sixty four. Now we head into these final 40 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: quiet uncertain hours were really, in my view, the fate 41 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: of the nation hangs in the balance in a profound 42 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: way because Trump is um is such a radical departure 43 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: from Americanism. Take me to your heart and mind. Is 44 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: this the eve of election Day? A completely surreal moment 45 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: for you, someone who's basically voted his professional life to 46 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: advancing a Republican agenda, and you are President Trump's de 47 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: facto public enemy number one. So the Republican Party today 48 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: is a vessel for the purposes of maintaining political power 49 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: to advance self interest and the interests of the donor class. 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: When you used to hear the importance of the rule 51 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: of law and the truth, you now hear celebrations of 52 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: the lie and of ignorance. It's an anti science, anti logic, 53 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: anti reality, toxic ideology with authoritarian components and fascistic markers. 54 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: It's a real threat to the country's future. That's what 55 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: Trump is um is today, and that's what the Republican 56 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: Party fully has become. And that's a great tragedy for 57 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: the country. We try to fight this as hard as 58 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: we could, and we did everything that we knew to do, 59 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, to stand up and try to oppose Trump 60 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: and Trump is um and put a narrative around it. 61 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: But no, it doesn't matter in victory or defeat. Trump 62 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: is Um isn't going away. We have a status authoritarian 63 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 1: ish movement that has rooted itself like a noxious weed, 64 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: like an invasive species in the American politics, and millions 65 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: of Americans are down with that. The first step is 66 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: to deny the minority the ability to rule over the 67 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: majority of the country. This is in the hands of 68 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: the American people. People have been voting for a month 69 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 1: and we're coming to the end. You know. I think 70 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: that Trump is going down. I think their country will 71 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: repudiate this. I think the markers are pointing to a 72 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: a significant democratic wave than anything else. If my prediction 73 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: is wrong, it will be the least of the thing 74 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: things that I've been wrong about um, because I will 75 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: have been profoundly wrong about the character of the country. 76 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: And I think the country, despite all its flaws, is 77 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: a force for great good. And that's why I think 78 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: the whole world is watching with trepidation and nervousness to 79 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: see what the judgment of the American people will being 80 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: now at a at a very very important moment in 81 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: our history. Then, given how divided we are, what is 82 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: your advice for the winners? We clearly, historically Americans have 83 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: always had a conspiracy bent. It's always existed in American culture. 84 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: But here's the deal. You can go and read Federalists 85 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: ten by James Madison, and he expresses a worry, and 86 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: the worry is that when you have a democracy, what's 87 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: the poison that the democracy could fall victim too? And 88 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: the poison is faction, is political parties, majoritarianism, a disregard 89 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: for the rights of the minority. And they write about 90 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: an over zealous majority imposing its will inappropriately on a 91 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: disregarded minority. It breaks democracy. Restraint. Restraint restraint, you know, 92 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: a sense that when you go into work you understand 93 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: that a number that is north of of the country 94 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: was for the other guy. Then a week from now, 95 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: what will you be doing. I don't know. You see 96 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: what happens, BECU see what happens. I might be game 97 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: to the White House fence in a week. And now 98 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: that week has passed. And for me, like many people 99 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: across this country, it wasn't until you saw the people 100 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: in the streets, you heard the horns honking, and business leaders, 101 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: political leaders, people across this country, really across the world 102 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: started saying, Okay, we've got a winner. You actually felt 103 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: this collective sigh of relief across the country. But the 104 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: thing is, seventy million people did vote for the president, 105 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of those seventy million people are still mad. 106 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: And you have a president, unlike previous presidents, who's not 107 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: accepting the results. The question is, did this election that 108 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: elected Joe Biden, that didn't elect a lot of Democrats, 109 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: that did not necessarily produce the blue wave, didn't deliver 110 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: a decisive message to America. I had to ask Steve, 111 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: so I called him back, and we'll be back with 112 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: Steve right after the break. Tell me you and I 113 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: talked one week ago, how you feel today. The results 114 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: of election met my expectations, they didn't fulfill my hopes. 115 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm happy that Joe Biden is the president elect. But 116 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: you think about this moment where it's clear about what 117 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: the outcome of the election is, and you have almost 118 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: the entirety of the Republican majority yet to congratulate the 119 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: President elect of the United States. You know, in the end, 120 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: the whole story of the country's went about fighting and struggle, 121 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: and there's never been an easy way up the mountain. 122 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: But we've got a really bad element of that. Trump 123 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: is incited, encouraged and mainstreams that are part of his coalition, 124 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: the complete disassociation from truth or reality, the President of 125 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: Q and on candidates in the House majority. Then this 126 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: wasn't the repudiation you were looking for. Well, it's a 127 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: decisive victory, but no, Trump is um wasn't repudiated at all. 128 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: You know, it's scored seventy million votes and it's gonna 129 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: be a long struggle, long fight in this country. But 130 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: a lot of Republicans who enabled this behavior over four 131 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: years did not pay a price for it. And you 132 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: know now you see the consequences of this. I wish 133 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: every Republican senator from Lindsey Graham and Susan Collins and 134 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: Joanie Earnest that made it was without but that's not 135 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: what the people of those states decided. And so it's 136 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: a long term fight and the failure to a seed 137 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: to the election, to a seed to reality, it's terrible. 138 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: I think that the Republican Party, they are sophisticated politicians, right, 139 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: they know that Joe Biden won, yet they're looking in 140 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: the camera premeditatedly, deliberately lying about what is the most 141 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: basic foundational thing in the country, trying to subvert the 142 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:10,359 Speaker 1: outcome of a presidential election that they know was conducted 143 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: fairly with a bunch of conspiracy theories. So what's the 144 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: path forward, Steve? There is a tradition, and there have 145 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: been some icy rides. Eisenhower and Truman road in silence. 146 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan didn't have much to talk about, 147 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: but they rode together, and they showed the country the 148 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: magnificence of the American system of government. The ex president 149 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: is escorted by tradition since Reagan's inauguration to the east 150 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: side of the capital, where the outgoing president will walk 151 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: to Marine one, turn and wave. The incoming president waves back, 152 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: and off he goes. The American system is renewed, It 153 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: begins again. This is the greatness of the American experiment. 154 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: That ride back on Marine one on Air Force one. 155 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: That's a courtesy. Donald Trump doesn't deserve. And remember one 156 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: thing in this country. Donald Trump doesn't leave the presidency. 157 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: The presidency leaves Donald Trump. At high noon on January 158 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is out on his ass God right, presidential podium, 159 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: God flags, God, Air Force one, God, the limo gone. 160 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: It's over on the January one, because the American people 161 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: fired him. We have won the first battle right against 162 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: this strain of American autocracy, this rantid, corrupt Trumpist ideology, 163 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: and we're going to fight it for a long long time. 164 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: Harmony has not been restored to America. We are in 165 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: a moment of great crisis. It's one of the greatest 166 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: challenges in the in the history of the country, and 167 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: the fight for democratic values is one that will go 168 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: on for the endurance of my life, no doubt. The 169 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: time between election day and calling a winner felt painstakingly slow, 170 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: but at the same time went by in a blink. 171 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: We didn't get that massive blue wave. We did get 172 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: a decided winner in Joe Biden, but it wasn't an 173 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: outright repudiation of the loser. Seventy million people so voted 174 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: for him. And something Steve left me thinking about is this, 175 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: While Trump may have lost the election, what kind of 176 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: blow was really delivered to Trump? Is um Our goal 177 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: is to cut through the noise and get straight to 178 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: the issues. So I want to leave you with some 179 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: space to think Modern Rules is a production of MSNBC 180 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. The podcast is hosted by me 181 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule and executive produced by Mike Fiett and Katrina Norvell. 182 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: Meredith Bennett Smith is Senior editor for NBC Think and 183 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: our editorial lead. The podcast is engineered and edited by 184 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: Josh Fisher and special banks to Katherine Kim, our Global 185 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: head of Digital News right here at NBC News and 186 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: MSNBC