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Speaker 1: Welcome to Hod of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.

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Speaker 2: And today we're talking about giving done Right with Phil Buchanan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So when it comes to being charitable and giving away money, Joel,

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Speaker 4: I think it could be easy for us to dismiss

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Speaker 4: our own efforts as just a tiny drop in the bucket,

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Speaker 4: at least like on my part, uh huh, no foundations

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Speaker 4: in my name, I'm selling hardcore right now. Like I'm

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Speaker 4: thinking for a lot of folks out there, maybe you

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Speaker 4: know you're giving just when prompted at the checkout register, right,

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Speaker 4: so it's just like five bucks on occasion, or maybe

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Speaker 4: you actually are being a little more disciplined about it, right,

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Speaker 4: you give away a certain percentage of your income, you

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Speaker 4: cut a check every single month. Maybe that's the easy

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Speaker 4: part you give, but then you don't think about it

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Speaker 4: beyond that. But that is not how we approach things

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Speaker 4: here at How to Money, we want you to get

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Speaker 4: the most bang for your buck, and here to help

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Speaker 4: us to learn how to do that is Phil Buchanan.

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Speaker 4: He is the president of the Center for Effective Philanthropy.

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Speaker 4: He's also the author of the book Giving Done Right,

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Speaker 4: where he emphasizes the importance of thoughtful and mission driven giving.

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Speaker 4: He is all about providing data driven insights to help

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Speaker 4: us to maximize our impact out there in the world. So, Phil,

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Speaker 4: thank you so much for taking the time and to

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Speaker 4: talk with Joel and I today.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Matt and Joel really happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're glad to have you Phil.

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Speaker 2: The first question we ask everyone that comes on the

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Speaker 2: show is what do you like to sporgehn Matt and

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Speaker 2: I we spend a lot on craft beer, but hey,

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Speaker 2: it's okay because we're doing the smart thing with our

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Speaker 2: money at the same time, saving and investing for our future.

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Speaker 1: What's that spurge for you?

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Speaker 3: I'm going to take two if that's okay.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: One is concert tickets, live music. I love to see

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Speaker 3: shows and I sometimes spend too much on tickets. And

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Speaker 3: the other is I try to push myself to quote

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Speaker 3: unquote splurge fill only that is to give a little

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Speaker 3: bit more than might feel comfortable to organizations that I

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Speaker 3: really really care about. I don't know if that counts

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Speaker 3: as a splurge, but I know the first one does.

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Speaker 4: Very on mission, I should say to educated. I'm curious too, Phil,

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Speaker 4: who have you seen recently? What was the best concert

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Speaker 4: in reason memory.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of my musical tastes these days are

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Speaker 3: influenced by my nineteen year old and twenty three year

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Speaker 3: old daughters. So this summer I saw Noah Khan with

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Speaker 3: my nineteen year old, which was fantastic, nice, and just

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Speaker 3: recently my twenty three year old kind of dragged me,

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Speaker 3: and then I ended up having a great time to

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Speaker 3: see The Far Side, a maybe somewhat obscure nineties hip

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Speaker 3: hop act who were amazing actually, And then actually a

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Speaker 3: few nights after that, we went my wife and I

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Speaker 3: went also with my older daughter to see Dar william

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Speaker 3: who's folks.

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Speaker 1: I loved Dar Williams.

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Speaker 3: She's a great songwriter, brilliant. We went to college together,

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Speaker 3: although I didn't know her.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's cool.

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Speaker 3: We've been seeing her shows for you know, the last

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Speaker 3: twenty years. So lots of different types of music.

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Speaker 1: Cool, Okay, yeah, that sounds very eclectic.

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Speaker 4: Phil just like scored so many more points with the

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Speaker 4: younger listeners than.

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Speaker 1: Oh, can I ask one quick question you Pheel?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can talk about music for a

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Speaker 2: long time, But I want to know the title of

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Speaker 2: your book is giving done right? I'm curious I just

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Speaker 2: kind of want to start this episode off by asking

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Speaker 2: the inverse question, what's giving done wrong?

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Speaker 3: Giving done wrong is thoughtless, arrogant, top down giving giving

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Speaker 3: that constrains organizations from being successful or effective. And there's

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Speaker 3: a whole lot of it. So I'll give you one example.

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Speaker 3: A lot of folks fixate, and I understand why on

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Speaker 3: overhead rates of nonprofits. So they'll say how much is

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Speaker 3: going to the cause or the program and how much

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Speaker 3: is going to quote unquote overhead, And that gets defined

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Speaker 3: in different ways, And I like to back people up

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Speaker 3: and say, what do you really mean? So if you're

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Speaker 3: talking about supporting the food pantry that's serving hungry people,

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Speaker 3: are you saying that you want your gift to go

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Speaker 3: to pay for the chicken and the broccoli and the

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Speaker 3: other food that's served, but not the rent of the

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Speaker 3: establishment in which the food is served, or the salaries

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Speaker 3: of the staff who coordinate the volunteers to serve the food.

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Speaker 3: Because that makes no sense. And if you restrict your

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Speaker 3: giving in that way, you will constrain the ability of

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Speaker 3: nonprofits to be effective. Similarly, if you think you have

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Speaker 3: all the answers to what are the most pressing problems

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Speaker 3: or the ways to solve them rather than going in

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Speaker 3: more from a place of humility, will make the kind

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Speaker 3: of mistakes that we sometimes see billionaire philanthropists make, and

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Speaker 3: so that would be philanthropy done wrong or giving done wrong.

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Speaker 4: I could say that being an instance of being cheap

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Speaker 4: as opposed to more of a frugal approach and looking

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Speaker 4: at the overall impact phil Can you talk about like

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Speaker 4: America has an interesting philanthropy history. I think that differs

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Speaker 4: from the rest of the world. Can you explain why

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Speaker 4: that is?

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Speaker 3: Sure? I mean, I think that the founding of the

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Speaker 3: country was rooted in a desire for religious freedom. And

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Speaker 3: you know, freedom of association obviously is built right into

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Speaker 3: our Bill of Rights. And in the you know, early days,

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Speaker 3: Totokeville discussed about discussed Americans tendency to form, you know,

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Speaker 3: associations and groups of all types and and so there's

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Speaker 3: this sense of the autonomy to kind of organize around

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Speaker 3: the issues that you care about, the freedom to do that,

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Speaker 3: the importance of doing that. And then in I believe

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Speaker 3: it was nineteen seventeen, the charitable tax deduction became a

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Speaker 3: part of the tax code. So there was then an

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Speaker 3: incentive to give philanthropically, just as we give incentives for people,

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Speaker 3: for example, to buy homes. The notion was we want

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Speaker 3: to encourage giving. And so the US has one of

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Speaker 3: the highest rates of giving globally. As a percent of

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Speaker 3: GDP giving in twenty twenty three was five hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty billion dollars charitable giving, and the bulk of that

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Speaker 3: three hundred and seventy four billion was giving buy individuals.

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Speaker 3: And well, we think of the ultra wealthy, and there

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Speaker 3: are some concerning trends in terms of everyday givers giving

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Speaker 3: at lower rates than was true twenty years ago, and

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Speaker 3: we can talk about that. It is still also the

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Speaker 3: case that the bulk of giving to most nonprofits is

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Speaker 3: not accounted for or not rather done by the biggest givers.

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Speaker 3: It is everyday givers who are helping fuel local nonprofits

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Speaker 3: in every community, who are working on important issues and

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Speaker 3: often helping the most vulnerable among us. So it is

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Speaker 3: an integral part of what keeps our country going. And

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Speaker 3: there's lots to be worried about in terms of the

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Speaker 3: strength of the nonprofit sector, the sort of trends related

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Speaker 3: to philanthropy, but historically it has been a great strength

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Speaker 3: of this country the nonprofit sector supported by generous donors.

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Speaker 2: Can you give us like an overview maybe or kind

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Speaker 2: of going into some US history a little bit here,

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Speaker 2: which is really cool, maybe of the actual good. What

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Speaker 2: are some of the things that nonprofits have had the

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Speaker 2: most impact on in this country in your opinion.

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Speaker 3: There's so much all around us that we take for

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Speaker 3: granted that is the work of nonprofits supported by generous donors.

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Speaker 3: So in the wake of the pandemic, you know, we

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Speaker 3: all rediscovered the trails.

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Speaker 1: In our very area.

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Speaker 3: You know, all the land conservation, the beautiful places that

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Speaker 3: we get to enjoy that are all around us. That's

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Speaker 3: an example of something we don't necessarily think about how

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Speaker 3: that came to be, that we've got that great path

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Speaker 3: to run on. But there's a philanthropy story there. The

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Speaker 3: diseases that we don't have to worry about our kids

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Speaker 3: dying from, you know, the Rockefeller Foundation developing a vaccine

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen thirties for yellow fever. That's not something

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Speaker 3: you find most people worrying about anymore. You think about

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Speaker 3: medical education and medical schools and way in which philanthropy

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Speaker 3: played a role in their development and establishment. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's a philanthropic, you know, story for almost everything we

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Speaker 3: think about basic you know, civil rights and some of

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Speaker 3: which are are under attack again, their right to vote,

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Speaker 3: and the role that nonprofits supported by foundations and other

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Speaker 3: donors played in helping to make that happen. You think

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Speaker 3: about the progress that's made been made in terms of

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Speaker 3: criminal justice reform and the rates of incarceration. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's much more progress to be made, but the progress

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Speaker 3: that's been made and things like the disproportionate rates of

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Speaker 3: incarceration of black men in this country, the progress that

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Speaker 3: has been made has been a result of amazing nonprofits

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Speaker 3: like Equal Justice Initiative supported by generous donors, Clean air,

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Speaker 3: clean water. These are the result as of environmental advocacy

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Speaker 3: to try to get companies to curb their their pollutants

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Speaker 3: or to get government to regulate certain activities, and that

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Speaker 3: have been successful and that have led to again cleaner

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Speaker 3: air and cleaner water than we would have had. The

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Speaker 3: list just goes on and on. Museums, arts and.

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Speaker 1: CULTURELD would be bleaker is what You're a.

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Speaker 3: Solutely bleaker the art that we enjoy, you know, I'll stop.

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Speaker 4: No, I mean, regardless of anyone listening could identify with

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Speaker 4: some of the different acts you mentioned. We can all

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Speaker 4: get behind clean water and clean air.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and just to think that, I think you put

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Speaker 2: it in perspective really well there that there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of things that we enjoy that we have a hard

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Speaker 2: time pinpointing where they came from. And to see that

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Speaker 2: nonprofits had an active role in the society we live in,

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Speaker 2: it just, I don't know, brings a smile on my face.

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Speaker 2: Makes me happy that they exist and that there's nonprofits

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Speaker 2: doing great work out there, even if their nonprofits I

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Speaker 2: don't know about that's that's.

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Speaker 4: True, but if you trace it back and dive into

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Speaker 4: the history, oftentimes you probably can tie that to charitable

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Speaker 4: organizations phil So you kind of hinted at the fact

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Speaker 4: that philanthropy, how it's been declining in recent years. Maybe

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Speaker 4: shed some light there, like why has that been a

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Speaker 4: trend that we've been seeing recently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard to know exactly why, and I think

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Speaker 3: that what I've learned over the years is maybe blindingly obvious.

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Speaker 3: But the answer to most questions, you know, when we're

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Speaker 3: looking for why is it's a combo platter of reasons.

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Speaker 3: But just to start with the problem two decades ago,

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Speaker 3: and this data comes from the Lily School at Indiana University,

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Speaker 3: about two thirds of American households we're giving to charity.

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Speaker 3: The most recent data it's just under half. So the

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Speaker 3: rates of giving have declined for a while that I

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Speaker 3: wasn't maybe seen as the crisis. It is because there

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Speaker 3: was so much wealth creation that the sort of mega

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Speaker 3: givers were able to fuel an increase in overall giving.

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Speaker 3: That in a way mass the problem of a decline

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Speaker 3: in the rate of participation. But now we're seeing that

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Speaker 3: flattening out to particularly when you adjust for the inflation

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Speaker 3: that has occurred in the last couple of years. So

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Speaker 3: we've actually seen year over year declines in giving, which

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Speaker 3: is not something that we're used to and which has

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Speaker 3: real consequences for vital nonprofits. So to your question why

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Speaker 3: there's so many possible contributors, one I think is just

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Speaker 3: to decline in trust and institutions broadly in our society,

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Speaker 3: more cynicism, you know, polarization rite a sense that a

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Speaker 3: sense of distrust in institutions. Essentially, I think that there's

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Speaker 3: also there's a lot of religion and religiously affiliated giving,

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Speaker 3: and because there's been a decline in religious participation that

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Speaker 3: has probably played a role. Folks point to some of

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Speaker 3: the impacts on the middle class of the Great Recession,

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Speaker 3: even as long ago as it was that that you know,

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Speaker 3: played a role fifteen years ago, I guess now in

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Speaker 3: some decline in rates of charitable giving. My own sense

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Speaker 3: is also that is a society we have not sufficiently

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Speaker 3: paid attention to the accomplishments of nonprofits. There's a tendency

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Speaker 3: to see nonprofits as lesser than to not think about them,

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Speaker 3: as we were just discussing, or when we do, to

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Speaker 3: imagine that they might be staffed by people who you know,

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Speaker 3: couldn't quite make it in the business world or something,

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Speaker 3: when in fact, my view is that it takes everything

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Speaker 3: to run a nonprofit that it takes to run an

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Speaker 3: equivalent side business, and a lot more. It's a harder job,

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Speaker 3: and nonprofit staff are often some of the most talented

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Speaker 3: in the country. But I don't know that that story

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Speaker 3: has been told, and that there's been a tendency instead

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Speaker 3: to focus on the isolated scandals or controversies which are

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Speaker 3: real and should be you know, should be addressed, but

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Speaker 3: people generalize them and assume that there are widespread problems

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Speaker 3: in management or leadership of nonprofits when when that's just

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Speaker 3: not the case. So I think it's it's so many

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Speaker 3: different things. And I would then turn around and point

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Speaker 3: the finger at myself and those of us in the

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Speaker 3: in the nonprofit sector who've made careers of this work

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Speaker 3: and say we have not figured out how to tell

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Speaker 3: the story well enough. And so I think part of

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Speaker 3: the part of the blame lies there as well.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting you're talking about people who work in nonprofits.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of times you're right, they're just

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Speaker 2: as talented, and they often choose on purpose to get

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Speaker 2: paid less absolutely able to do work that they feel

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Speaker 2: makes more of a difference than going out there into

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Speaker 2: generalized corporate America. Not there's anything wrong with that, but

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Speaker 2: I think that they're like, yeah, those people are taking

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Speaker 2: a significant pay cut off them to do work that

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Speaker 2: they think needs to exist in this world. I'm curious

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Speaker 2: to what about taxes, how do those impact how people

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Speaker 2: give and how much people give? Because like the tax

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Speaker 2: cuts and Job Act, in many ways it had some

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Speaker 2: significantly positive impacts or other potentially negative impacts, But how

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Speaker 2: has that impacted giving and the higher standard deduction just

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Speaker 2: means that a lot fewer people gets a tax benefit

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Speaker 2: from their donations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's probably on the list of contributors

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Speaker 3: as well, although I mean that's some more recent development.

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Speaker 3: And I think as I'm not a policy person, I'm

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Speaker 3: certainly not a tax policy person, but I would say

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Speaker 3: that it doesn't make a lot of sense to me

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Speaker 3: that it is only the wealthiest, right the itemers, who

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Speaker 3: we would give an incentive to give. Right. So, so

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Speaker 3: I'd like to see universal uh deductibility of charitable gifts

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Speaker 3: in our in our tax policy, so that so that

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Speaker 3: folks who are you know, everyday people uh making you know,

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Speaker 3: regular wages also get also get that level of incentive

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Speaker 3: for for charitable giving. So I think it's an issue,

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Speaker 3: and and you know what, I honestly think it's one

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Speaker 3: of those issues that people should be able to come

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Speaker 3: together on across the partisan divide. I'm not sure that

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of hope right now about people

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Speaker 3: coming together across the partisan divide on much of anything,

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Speaker 3: but but this shure should be one area where you

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Speaker 3: can imagine some some agreement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So we've we've talked about effective altruism on the show

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Speaker 4: before a lot of folks know about that. How would

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Speaker 4: you say that effect to valtruism is different from effective philanthropy.

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Speaker 4: Could you talk about maybe some of the differences, some

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Speaker 4: of the compare and contrast.

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Speaker 3: To Sure, Yeah, I would sort of describe effective altruism.

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Speaker 3: And you guys tell me if you see it differently,

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Speaker 3: because I think it's shifted a little bit. What what

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Speaker 3: what what people? How people define it? But as this

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Speaker 3: notion that you should be sort of maximizing the impact

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Speaker 3: on human lives of your charitable giving and that that

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Speaker 3: that's a that's your moral obligation. And Peter Singer, the

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Speaker 3: philosopher at Princeton, I think, is sort of the godfather

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Speaker 3: of this concept. And I think it's a helpful challenge

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Speaker 3: to one's thinking to say, Okay, maybe I should give

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Speaker 3: some of my charitable donations to parts of the world

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Speaker 3: where the dollar is going to go further and where

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Speaker 3: I could say, prevent a death from malaria potentially for

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Speaker 3: not that much money, or you know, seriously affect the

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Speaker 3: trajectory of someone's life. And I think that's sort of

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Speaker 3: a useful intellectual challenge. I think as a practical matter,

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Speaker 3: though effective altruism doesn't really work as a defining sort

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Speaker 3: of framework for most people. And that's because if taken literally,

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Speaker 3: if applied literally, it would mean you wouldn't give to

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Speaker 3: the arts, for example. It would mean that you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: give locally in your own community if you live, for example,

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Speaker 3: in the United States. And so I am skeptical of

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Speaker 3: its utility as a practical framework to actually guide people,

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Speaker 3: because I think the reality is that philanthropy is rooted

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Speaker 3: in our values and our sense of connection to other

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Speaker 3: human beings, and so well we need to apply our

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Speaker 3: analytic minds to it, we also need to use our hearts,

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Speaker 3: and that the two go together. And so I think

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Speaker 3: of effective philanthropy as something that allows for more diversity

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Speaker 3: in choice of goals based on people's values and interests. Right, So,

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, the goals that you guys would

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Speaker 3: choose might not be the goals that I would choose.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think one set of choices is necessarily

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Speaker 3: objectively better than another. I think the sort of pluralism

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Speaker 3: of philanthropy, the choice that people have, is a strength. Then,

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Speaker 3: but I do think you should have clear goals. You

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Speaker 3: should try to know what you're doing and make sure

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Speaker 3: that you're giving is consistent with those goals. You should

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Speaker 3: try to then give in a way that supports effective

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Speaker 3: strategies to achieve those goals. If you want to work

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Speaker 3: on a particular issue, whatever it might be, there are

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Speaker 3: more and less effective paths to follow, often more and

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Speaker 3: less effective organizations to support. So I think that's important

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Speaker 3: to pay attention to. And then I think it's important

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Speaker 3: to have information that you're looking at to gauge your

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Speaker 3: sense of whether the folks you're supporting are are in

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Speaker 3: fact making the difference that they intend to make. Are

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Speaker 3: they as effective as as you thought they were when

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Speaker 3: you made those gifts. Those are important questions to ask,

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Speaker 3: But we got to keep the heart and values center

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Speaker 3: to this as well.

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Speaker 4: I think I like how you mentioned hearts there and

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Speaker 4: you said objective truth. It's almost like the difference between

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Speaker 4: more of an object of approach to charity and a

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Speaker 4: subjective approach, right, It's like, are we talking about some

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Speaker 4: sort of absolute impact that these dollars are going to

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Speaker 4: have on individuals or maybe the relative impact relative to

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Speaker 4: who relative to you?

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Speaker 1: And as you know, you can see in front of

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Speaker 1: your eyes, Yeah, and.

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Speaker 4: As you know, like I mean, this is a personal

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Speaker 4: finance show, and so much of kind of the decisions

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Speaker 4: that we make do have to do with personal preference.

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Speaker 4: So I like how you distinguished the two there.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask specifically about you talked about the

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Speaker 2: fixation on overhead, and that's something Matt and I've talked

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Speaker 2: about on the show before too, and maybe we should

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Speaker 2: probably think a little differently about that. This conversation is

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Speaker 2: making me want to think about what other things a

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Speaker 2: nonprofit might be doing, and not just thinking about how

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Speaker 2: efficient are they, but what are some of the best

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Speaker 2: resources for finding the most effective charities? And how do

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Speaker 2: you judge whether or not a charity is effective?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean those are really difficult questions because there's

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Speaker 3: not like a universal metric by which we can compare

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Speaker 3: the organization and working to improve graduation rates in Cleveland

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Speaker 3: against the organization working to reduce CO two emissions, you know,

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Speaker 3: in Brazil. The metrics are different, and so that's why

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Speaker 3: I think people gravitate toward overhead because it is something

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Speaker 3: you can compare different organizations using the same ratios. But

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Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that you should look I think it's

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Speaker 3: reasonable to say, well, what does this organization's budget look like,

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Speaker 3: how are they allocating it? You know, I think it's

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Speaker 3: reasonable if two organizations are doing essentially the same thing

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Speaker 3: to look at the budget relative to the amount of

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Speaker 3: that thing that they're doing. Although it's relatively rare, you're

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Speaker 3: going to find that apple to apple kind of comparison.

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Speaker 3: But honestly, what I would ask is what is the

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Speaker 3: organization trying to do? It comes back to what I

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Speaker 3: was saying before. What are their goals, what are their

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Speaker 3: strategies for achieving those goals? And what indicators are they

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Speaker 3: using to assess progress? Can they tell you a story

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Speaker 3: that makes sense that answers those basic questions. If they can,

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Speaker 3: then they're in the best position to decide how to

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Speaker 3: allocate your gift. And if they're investing in something that

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Speaker 3: some might categorize as overhead, like increasing staff salaries so

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Speaker 3: they can retain the best people because they're having trouble

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Speaker 3: retaining their frontline employees or making technological improvements that will

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Speaker 3: help them do their work more effectively, do we really

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Speaker 3: want to disincentivize them for doing that? And if we

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Speaker 3: don't trust the leaders of organizations enough to be able

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Speaker 3: to make those judgments about how to allocate resources within

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Speaker 3: their budgets to pursue the mission that they're dedicated to.

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Speaker 3: Then why are we funding them at all? And then

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Speaker 3: in terms of your question about well, where do you

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Speaker 3: go to figure this out? I'm not a huge fan

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Speaker 3: of some of the popular sort of charity rating websites

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Speaker 3: because they do tend to be too focused on these

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Speaker 3: financial ratios, which I think are not helpful out of context,

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Speaker 3: and which rightly varied based on the kind of work

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Speaker 3: that are being done, and then people apply them without

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Speaker 3: that context or nuance. So where do you go? I

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Speaker 3: think your local community foundation is a great place to start.

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Speaker 3: So almost every community in this country has a community

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Speaker 3: foundation that exists to match donors and nonprofits in that community.

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Speaker 3: I think there are this might be an outdated number now,

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Speaker 3: but at least eight hundred community foundations in this country,

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Speaker 3: and there's a community foundation finder online I believe, on

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Speaker 3: the Council on Foundation's website. You can go find your

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Speaker 3: community foundation and they can help you align your priorities

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Speaker 3: with organizations in your community that they have vetted and

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Speaker 3: know to be effective working in those areas that matter

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Speaker 3: to you. So that that's very cool the best advice

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Speaker 3: I can give. No.

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Speaker 4: I think that's a helpful context to put it in,

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Speaker 4: because when you are looking at certain metrics like expense overhead,

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Speaker 4: like it's almost like a race to the bottom if

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Speaker 4: that's the only price that you're looking at, at which point,

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Speaker 4: maybe there are different sacrifices, not sacrifices, but decisions that

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Speaker 4: some of these nonprofits make.

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Speaker 2: And at some point, why don't we just put up

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Speaker 2: red box machines with foods to feed the homeless? You

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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying, Like, there's no then there's no

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Speaker 2: personal touch, and so I get I get why that's

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Speaker 2: a faulty metric. So we've got so much more that

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Speaker 2: we want to discuss with you, Phil, including Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: then how do we come up with effective goals and

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Speaker 2: strategies to be wise givers. We'll get to a bunch

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Speaker 2: more with Phil Buchanan right after this we are back from.

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Speaker 4: The break talking about giving done right with Phil If

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Speaker 4: Buchanan and Phil, you just mentioned how we should be

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Speaker 4: looking to different local community foundations, and a large part

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Speaker 4: of that too, when you're looking to organizations that are

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Speaker 4: geographically close to you, is the ability to even volunteer

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Speaker 4: in person totally. How important do you think that support is,

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Speaker 4: that non financial support to some of the different nonprofits

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Speaker 4: that we care about.

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Speaker 3: I mean, to many nonprofits, it's absolutely vital that they

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Speaker 3: literally couldn't deliver their programmatic work without volunteers. It obviously

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Speaker 3: varies nonprofit and nonprofit depending on what the organization is doing,

438
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 3: but volunteering, as you say, can be a great way

439
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: also to just get educated about both the particular nonprofit

440
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 3: and just the nature of the work. And it's super fun.

441
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things that is interesting. And

442
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 3: this is not like research that we've done, but I've

443
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 3: read research by a variety of folks, including people at

444
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 3: Notre Dame, who have studied the effects on the human

445
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 3: brain of giving and volunteering. It literally will make you

446
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 3: happier if you get out there and give both of

447
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 3: your time and your money. And like I said, a

448
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 3: lot of nonprofits are really dependent on that volunteer support.

449
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: What about someone who's listening and says, but doesn't the

450
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: government fund a lot of some of these causes? Aren't

451
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: they trying to tackle some of the same missions that

452
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 2: nonprofits are trying to tackle. How do you think about

453
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: the nonprofit response to certain issues versus government involvement, and

454
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 2: are they working in tandem or is this a cause

455
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: for some people to sit on their hands and not give.

456
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: First of all, a lot of nonprofits do get government

457
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: funding in the form of contracts of various kinds, right,

458
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 3: So the government is often looking to nonprofits to do

459
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: certain kinds of work. I'll give you an example. I'm

460
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 3: on the board of directors at the National Council on Aging,

461
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: which worry about the quality of life of older adults,

462
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 3: and the National Council on an Aging gets federal funding

463
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: for programs that they then grant out to local senior

464
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 3: centers in communities that provide various services like education on

465
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 3: falls prevention, for example, or job training for older adults

466
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: who want to get back in the workforce. So we

467
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 3: sometimes think of government and nonprofit as more separate than

468
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 3: they are in the sense that nonprofits are often contracted

469
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 3: to do work with federal funds. I mean, I do

470
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: think that in other countries that have a more robust

471
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 3: social safety net, there is less of a need for

472
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: certain kinds of nonprofits. And there's been a lot of

473
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 3: critique of philanthropy and nonprofits from folks sort of on

474
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: the ideological left. Let's say, who will argue, well, this

475
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: should be the government's work and the billionaires should just

476
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: pay their taxes. And you know, that sounds kind of

477
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: convincing until you think it through and realize that actually,

478
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: you know, the American people have voted for the folks

479
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: who are who are making these decisions in this country,

480
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: and we have I might, I might like a different outcome.

481
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: I would like a different outcome, but the fact is

482
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: we have not. We have not elected to have that

483
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 3: kind of social safety net in this country. We literally

484
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: have not elected the people who want to put that

485
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: into place. And so in the meantime, yes, we could

486
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: focus on advocacy to try to get that to happen

487
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: so that the government does more. That's totally legitimate, and

488
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 3: you can do some of that legitimate, legitimately philanthropically. In

489
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: the meantime, there are needs that have to be at

490
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 3: every day. So it's too easy to just kick back

491
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 3: and say, well, the government should do this, because some

492
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: of it the government just isn't doing. And so, if

493
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: we care about our fellow citizens, if we care about

494
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 3: the most marginalized among us, if we care about our neighbors.

495
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: Then philanthropy matters.

496
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: Like ideal is immerse reality on the ground, I think so.

497
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, one of the ways you've addressed our ability to

498
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 4: assess different nonprofits, like you mentioned the head and the Heart. Yeah,

499
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 4: I'm also thinking about just some of the different trends

500
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 4: that we've seen within like the giving space, Like there

501
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 4: are different organizations that just get really popular for one

502
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 4: reason or the other. And something else that keeps ringing

503
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 4: in my head that you said earlier is that an

504
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: organization has an ability to tell a story. And so

505
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: are there some organizations that just get lucky with how

506
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 4: it is that they're able to communicate the needs that

507
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 4: they're looking to address to the American public.

508
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying is so

509
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 3: important because sometimes we confuse what sounds like it would

510
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 3: work with what works, and we give on the basis

511
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: of something sounding like it would work. So an example,

512
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 3: this is an older one, but you know program called

513
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 3: Scared Straight where the goal was to encourage high school

514
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: students not to get involved in criminal activity, and the

515
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 3: intervention was to have formally incarcerated people come speak at

516
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: school assemblies about the mistakes that they'd made. In their life,

517
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: and that program got a lot of funding when it

518
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 3: was like it would work. It sounds like it would work, right,

519
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: Like you see, well, I wouldn't want to be like

520
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: that guy and have spent seven years in prison. Well,

521
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: when it was rigorously evaluated, multiple studies discovered is that

522
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 3: it had the opposite of the intended effect. It made

523
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: young people more interested in crime rather than less.

524
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: It was really cool, exactly, No, that's exactly it.

525
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: And so that would be an example in sort of

526
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: a negative direction. I'll give you an example on the

527
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: other side. I think for decades people have assumed that

528
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 3: you can't just give money to poor people to help

529
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 3: them get out of poverty, because it won't be sustainable,

530
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 3: they won't make the right choices any number of reasons.

531
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: But there's increasing evidence that organizations like Give Directly, which

532
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: is international cash transfers to people in poverty and up

533
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: together here in the United States, which is a similar model,

534
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: where folks are literally being identified as in need and

535
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 3: able to benefit from direct cash transfers and they're receiving

536
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 3: that cash, and the evaluations that have been done suggest

537
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 3: that it does change the trajectory of their life. It

538
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: certainly changes the quality of their life in the near

539
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 3: term while they're receiving the money, but then also allowing

540
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: them to get on a different trajectory, whether that's by

541
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: pursuing educational opportunities that they might not have otherwise been

542
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: able to or retiring debt. There's another amazing organization called

543
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: called Rip Medical Debt, and you know, they're literally paying

544
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 3: off people's medical debt.

545
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: Didn't they just change their name to Yes? I'm worried

546
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: trying to remember what the new.

547
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 3: Name as I say this, Yeah, but formerly known as

548
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: RIP Medical Debt. I'm sure if you google it the

549
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: new name will come up. And you know, just as

550
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 3: simple as as helping people get that, you know, off

551
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: their back is transformative. But it is the kind of

552
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 3: thing that, you know, there's this kind of paternalistic sense

553
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: that people sometimes have of well, but that person won't

554
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: make the right decision and you know, won't use the

555
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: money the way the way that I would. But actually

556
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 3: people are smart about their own lives, you know, and

557
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 3: people are in a good position to know what they need.

558
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 3: And one of the things I'd like to see more

559
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 3: of in philanthropy is trust. Trust in the people in

560
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 3: communities who know what they need, trust in the nonprofits

561
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 3: that are working in those communities, that know how to

562
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 3: do the work, and a little bit less of the

563
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: assumption that I often see from you know, like the

564
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 3: tech billionaires, that because I was really good at that,

565
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: I'm going to be really good at being a philanthropist,

566
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 3: when in fact it's kind of a different set of skills.

567
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 3: There's a lot of knowledge already out there, and it

568
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 3: takes it takes sort of commitment and humility to really

569
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 3: get good at being at being a philanthropist.

570
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, the new name of RIP Medical

571
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: Debt is Undoe Medical Debt, so thank you. I don't

572
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 2: know why they changed the name, but they've been around

573
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: a long time now, and yeah, that's what the rest.

574
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 4: I wonder if the RIP was just a little too

575
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,479
Speaker 4: slightly negative, maybe they're just like this is a little

576
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 4: too much like the Scared Streak.

577
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: They really were like acting and killing medical Debt and

578
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: they still are. But I like that. I like the

579
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: old name. But what's fine too, and they're just a

580
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: great organization with that.

581
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: I love what they're doing. Phil.

582
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: I'm curious you talk about not giving just because you

583
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: were asked to give and That is kind of one

584
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: of my pet peeves, and this time of year, I

585
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: think it's especially It may be claws on your heartstrings.

586
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: You're walking into the grocery store and someone's raising money

587
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: for a particular nonprofit. And sometimes I have no problem

588
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 2: with people who want to give in that way. I

589
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: feel like a scrooge because I'm saying no. But I

590
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: have plans for my giving, and so that's the reason

591
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: I'm saying no. In the moment, you talk about giving

592
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: in accordance with your goals and your strategies. Can you

593
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: kind of elaborate on that and how you see the

594
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: dichotomy I guess between being asked maybe in a moment

595
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: of emotional vulnerability, and having a pre thought plan for

596
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 2: how and when you're going to give.

597
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Right, there's a crowd of nine people behind you.

598
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 3: It's the holidays. You're in the store, and the cash

599
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: here says loudly, do you want to give two dollars

600
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: and fifty cents to help end cancer? And you're like, oh,

601
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 3: do I want to be the guy the guy saying

602
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 3: no to that question right now? But you actually don't

603
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: know anything about where that money is going, and you're

604
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: not thinking about what your priorities are in that moment,

605
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: and maybe you do want to give to organizations working

606
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: to end cancer. Maybe that's really really important to you.

607
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: And if you say no, it doesn't mean you love

608
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: cancer or anything either, right, but I think that's how

609
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: it makes you feel, exactly.

610
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 3: Do it in your dining room out, do a little research.

611
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: Maybe there are maybe there are certain organizations that are

612
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 3: more compelling to you than others. Don't just respond in

613
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 3: that moment. And it's hard, but I think you can say,

614
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 3: oh no, you know, I really believe in that, but

615
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 3: I actually do you know my charitable giving, you know,

616
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 3: at the end of the year, and I have organizations

617
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 3: I give to or whatever, you know, not like the

618
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: person at the cash er is just probably needs to

619
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: hear all that. But I think if it's.

620
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: Helpful for me to know my strategy giving plan.

621
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. But I just think if you just respond,

622
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 3: you will look back and say, Okay, I spent all

623
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: this money, but it wasn't on my priorities. It was

624
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: just saying yes to people. And so you know, what

625
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: I say in the book is, look, you're not going

626
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 3: to be able to one hundred percent, you know, do

627
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: this when your niece says, I'm raising money for the

628
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: school project and it's this organization you know that does

629
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 3: X y Z. Like you're gonna help your niece with

630
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 3: her project, right, she's supposed to raise X amount of money.

631
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 3: Or your friend is doing a bike race or a run,

632
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: that's fine, but just try to limit that budget it

633
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 3: make it twenty percent for the stuff that you're going

634
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 3: to just have to be responsive to because it's your

635
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: niece or your friend, and then make the eighty percent

636
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 3: align with your priorities. And I think, you know, I

637
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 3: mean I made that up right. There's no magic to that,

638
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: but I mean it's it's something to provide a little

639
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 3: bit of guidance and clarity, and you can even explain

640
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: to folks like, you know, I have these charitable priorities,

641
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 3: like like I was saying before, and and I just

642
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 3: got to protect my ability to pursue those.

643
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: I think it's possible this time of year too that

644
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: some people and I don't want to cast dispersions, but

645
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: it's just true when you look at the news and

646
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: you see reports of people who are trying to collect

647
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 2: money for charities they don't exist. So there are scams

648
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 2: out there as well that people need to be aware

649
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: of and maybe not even some nonprofits aren't scams, but

650
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: they are I don't know, I would call them maybe

651
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: scam adjacent. We've talked about on the show different even

652
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: professional athletes phil who start their own nonprofit and when

653
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: you look at the numbers, like it's not about like

654
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: high overhead, it's about pathetic results. And just some of

655
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: these nonprofits they've got a fantastic figurehead at the top,

656
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: the celebrity or something like that, but they're really they're

657
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: they've employed their best friend or something like that, and

658
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 2: they have a multi six figure salary. Like this nonprofit

659
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: is doing almost nothing, but it's it's gaining a lot

660
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: of acoleates because of the people that are attached to it.

661
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 2: How can we protect ourselves maybe from the worst kinds

662
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: of charities out there?

663
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I think first of all,

664
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 3: by not saying yes in the moment whatever the whatever

665
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 3: the moment is, whether it's the cash register, the phone call,

666
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 3: the person in front of you, but then also seeing

667
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: seeing who else supports them, like if you are interested, Okay, well,

668
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 3: let me see. I mentioned community foundations before, like community

669
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 3: foundations have staff who do a level of vetting that

670
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 3: makes it, you know, somewhat less likely that you know,

671
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 3: if they're giving a major grant to that organization, that

672
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: that it's that it's problematic. Other staffed private foundations similar situation,

673
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 3: you're going to know that they've been through some kind

674
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 3: of real selection process. And and you know, I mean

675
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: I try to be like nuanced about this, Like I've said, like,

676
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 3: don't fixate on overhead metrics, and I believe that, but

677
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: at the extremes they can be relevant, right, Like if

678
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 3: in fact, the bulk of money is going to fundraising

679
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 3: expense by some you know, third party corporate fundraiser. You know,

680
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 3: there are these sort of outlier examples where you have

681
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 3: what are essentially shell nonprofits that are just generating profit

682
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 3: to the third party fundraising consultant, and you want to

683
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 3: obviously avoid those, like the plague. But there are plenty

684
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 3: of resources out there on any particular issue area. In

685
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 3: the book, you know, I tried to describe like if

686
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 3: you care about this issue area, then here are some

687
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 3: resources to look at. If you care about this issue area. Yeah,

688
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 3: I can't go through it all here, we be here

689
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 3: all day, but like, once you start to zero in,

690
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: you will find the trusted sources that will allow you

691
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 3: to identify organizations that are really doing excellent work. And

692
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 3: there are so many out there in every issue area.

693
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 4: Sounds like it's kind of issue specific or issue dependent.

694
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's either issue dependent or community dependent. I think

695
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 3: there's different slices on where to go for sort of

696
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 3: aggregated data about you know, these are some organizations that

697
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 3: are doing good work.

698
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 4: Cool, Well, we've got more to get to if you Phil,

699
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 4: we're going to talk about how to create your own

700
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 4: shell nonprofit. Maybe we'll have had a money foundation.

701
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: We'll talk about some.

702
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 4: Different ways that we can all give more effectively and impactfully.

703
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: Right after the break, we're.

704
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 2: Back to the break, which is talking about giving and

705
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 2: giving effectively. And we've got the man who is perfect

706
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 2: for discuss that very thing, Philip Buchanan with us, who

707
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 2: wrote the book Giving.

708
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: Done Right and Phil Matt and I.

709
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: For a long time, I guess donor advice funds were

710
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 2: these really expensive things that were kind of for rich

711
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: elites and for the average middle class person. A donor

712
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: advice one just didn't make much sense because of the

713
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: expenses involved, and because I mean, let's be honest, average

714
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: folks aren't giving six figures away on annually. So what

715
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: do you think about donor advice funds though? As the

716
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: costs of come down, are they a helpful tool for

717
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 2: normal folks? Are they like total overkill?

718
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: Well?

719
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 3: I think they can be a helpful tool, and like

720
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: you say, the minimum balances have come down both, I

721
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 3: think at community foundations as well as at the other

722
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: like commercial donor advice fund providers like a Fidelity Fidelity

723
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: charitable or a Schwab. And I think it's very convenient,

724
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 3: right because you've you've got your money at the in

725
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 3: the DAFT, you can invest it and then you can

726
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 3: just designate which nonprofits you want to support it. You

727
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 3: could add to the DAFT over time. Now in the

728
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 3: world that I'm in, the operating nonprofit world, there are

729
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 3: a lot of critics of donor advise funds because of

730
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 3: the fact that you get the tax benefit for establishing

731
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: the donor advise fund when you put the money in,

732
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: but the money doesn't necessarily go out, you know, for years, right,

733
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 3: Like it depends what you choose. And again I'm not

734
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 3: a tax policy person, so I'm not going to wade

735
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 3: into that one. But what I would say is, if

736
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: you establish a daft, you know, use it, don't just

737
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 3: let it sit there idly, really use it for what

738
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 3: it's intended to be used for. And if you do that,

739
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 3: then I think it can be a good choice, particularly

740
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 3: if you know you've got at least a few thousand

741
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 3: dollars a year that you'd like to be giving away,

742
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 3: and certainly if you've got much more than.

743
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: That, that makes sense.

744
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 4: I mean, I think that's kind of one of the

745
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 4: criticisms I've had, even though I have a donor advice fund,

746
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 4: and yeah, it's something that I participate in. There's something

747
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 4: about I guess what happens to you as the giver

748
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 4: when it's still sitting there, because like in a certain way, like, yes,

749
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 4: it's technically not mine anymore, but I do get to

750
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 4: direct it, but it's not mine, but I still get

751
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 4: to you're still killing the string. I still get to

752
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 4: log into my account and see that number. And so

753
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: there's something psychologically or emotionally where it's almost like it's

754
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 4: it's like it still has a grip on you, phil

755
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 4: But so I guess maybe on that note, let's kind

756
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 4: of finish the same way you that you and your

757
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 4: book by talking about, I guess the paradox of generosity,

758
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 4: talk about how the impacts of giving, how obviously it

759
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 4: can not only impact those that you are giving too,

760
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 4: but just maybe that psychological, maybe that emotional component and

761
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 4: benefit that we receive as givers as well.

762
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, my colleague Grace Nicolett and I have

763
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 3: a podcast called Giving Done Right Creatively Enough, and we

764
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 3: have a mix of guests on. But the one thenversations

765
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 3: that have really stuck with me have been with the

766
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: families and donors who have just decided how much is

767
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 3: enough and have made a commitment to giving at a sustained,

768
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 3: you know, high level, and had what that has done

769
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 3: for them in terms of their own growth as people,

770
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 3: their own sense of what it is to have a

771
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 3: legacy on this earth. That ultimately, you know, if you're

772
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 3: fortunate enough to have considerable assets, you're probably not doing

773
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 3: your kids a favor by having them inherit them all,

774
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 3: but you probably are doing them a big favor by

775
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 3: modeling you know, what it looks like to really give

776
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: in a big way. And as much as we all

777
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 3: know stories of families that have been torn apart by

778
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 3: fights over money and resources, you know, their real life

779
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 3: in the business pages or you know, watching Succession on

780
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 3: HBO or whatever network it's on. I've witnessed almost the

781
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 3: inverse of that, the way in which a family commitment

782
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 3: to giving can bond siblings and parents and different generations

783
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 3: together in really beautiful ways as they learn what the

784
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 3: issues are that each of them cares about, and as

785
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 3: they try to support organizations that are really making a

786
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 3: difference against those issues. So I think you just get

787
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 3: so much out of it, And I don't think people

788
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 3: look back with a lot of regrets about having committed

789
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 3: a lot philanthropically. You might look back with regrets about

790
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 3: whether you really, you know, needed that that third car

791
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 3: which is now a pain to take care of, But

792
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 3: I don't think you're going to look back with regrets

793
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: about supporting a really great organization over the long term.

794
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, they say, you don't miss what you give away,

795
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 2: and and it's amazing, Yeah, how much of an impact

796
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 2: it can have on us as individuals. So thank you

797
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: for sharing that, Phil, It's a perfect place to wrap

798
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: it up. Thank you for joining us. Where can our

799
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: listeners find out more about you and your mission to

800
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 2: help people give more effectively.

801
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a website CEP dot org. There's a

802
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: blog with lots of resources about giving that you can

803
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 3: access from that website. And there's also our podcast, Giving

804
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 3: Done Right and a website for that podcast, which is

805
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 3: Giving done right dot org.

806
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: Perfect. We'll make sure the link to.

807
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 4: The blog, the book, the podcast, all of the above. Phil,

808
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 4: thank you so much for talking with us today.

809
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,479
Speaker 3: Matt and Joel, thanks for having me appreciate it all.

810
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: Right, Man, that that was a good chat with Phil.

811
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 2: And man, he's just got so much good information about

812
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: giving effectively.

813
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, he does.

814
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: And I feel like it's just especially this time of year,

815
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 2: this is something we want to highlight, but something we

816
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: like to highlight every year.

817
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: I like that you address the guilt that one feels.

818
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 4: Oh man, I feel it, Like Phil says, I still say,

819
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 4: do you want to give ninety nine cents to cancer?

820
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 4: You're like, and I will say I'm a people pleaser,

821
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 4: but I still say no every time you start freaking out.

822
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 4: But it's because I have such.

823
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 2: A I know what I'm doing with that money, and

824
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: so I don't feel bad because I know that it's

825
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 2: not like I'm being stingy. I just have other places

826
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: that I've pre selected to give, so I don't necessarily

827
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: even give the spiel. I just say no, thank you,

828
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: not today. But I think you could say that and

829
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: not feel bad. Yeah, but what's your big takeaway from

830
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 2: this combo?

831
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 4: Or you can just go ahead and give a little bit,

832
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 4: just just in the moment if you want to.

833
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: I like what he said to you about you know, hey, the.

834
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 4: Majority of the vast majority of your dollars, maybe designate

835
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: that towards organizations that are strategically aligned with how it

836
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 4: does that you want to give, and maybe that other

837
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 4: twenty percent not only can you support your niece, but

838
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 4: you see the Santa outside ringing the bell, you someone

839
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 4: to asks.

840
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: You out the register. I kind of like that ability.

841
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: I don't put that Santa in a headlock or anything

842
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: like that. I just just walk on by.

843
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: You don't do the duct taper underhand and drop the

844
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: web bandits.

845
00:48:55,520 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 4: It's a nice little holiday movie call out. But my

846
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 4: big takeaway is going to be the resource that he mentioned,

847
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 4: which was the Council on Foundations. So it's COF dot

848
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 4: org where you can look to some of the different

849
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 4: local community foundations that work with a number of local

850
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 4: organizations that are vetted, and so I think in that

851
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 4: way you can kind of rest assured that these dollars

852
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 4: are being spent in a more responsible way. Right, there's

853
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 4: a level of accountability there, but then also the ability

854
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 4: to see some of these dollars that you're giving go

855
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 4: to serve the areas that are most geographically proximate to

856
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 4: wherever you are. I think there's a I don't know,

857
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 4: there's like a high level of satisfaction. I guess when

858
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 4: it comes to that kind of give to get to

859
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 4: see you're giving dollars a play exactly. No, yeah, COF

860
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 4: dot Org. I think about you though your big takeaway.

861
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 2: I think my big takeaways when Phil talked kind of

862
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 2: early on about how we don't think about how certain

863
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: things came to be, and he's right, like it becomes

864
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: kind of the water that we swim in and we

865
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 2: fail to realize the impact that hundreds of nonprofits around

866
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: the nation, thousands of nonprofits in all likelihood right are

867
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: are having on a dayabaate day, week to week, year

868
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: to year basis. And so it makes me want to

869
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: dig in a little more to see, especially locally, like

870
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 2: what what impacts have.

871
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: These nonprofits have?

872
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 3: Like?

873
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 2: What are the not just even looking at the numbers,

874
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 2: but man, how does my community look different because these

875
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 2: nonprofits exist? And so I think that is a really

876
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 2: good thing to recognize that the world we live in

877
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 2: would not be the world we live in without many

878
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: of the nonprofits that exist. And it just gets me

879
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: even more excited to support the ones that that matter

880
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 2: most to me, that are doing the work I want

881
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 2: to see happened in the world.

882
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 1: I dig it sweet.

883
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: All right, let's mention the beer you and I enjoyed

884
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 4: during this episode was called Farina. This is a beer

885
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 4: by Halfway Crooks, which is a top fermenting lagger.

886
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: You know what that means. I don't technically know that

887
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: top and bottom fermented loggers. I know I.

888
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 2: Prefer mine diagonally fermented.

889
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: It's something that we should know, given how big of

890
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: a now we just like to drink it. We don't

891
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: we enjoy the flavors.

892
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 4: I don't know anything, like truly hardly anything about actually

893
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,959
Speaker 4: brewing beer, but this is one of our.

894
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: Favorite local breweries. What were your thoughts?

895
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 2: So this one was really interesting because I feel like

896
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: a lot of loggers are incredibly clean. This one was

897
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 2: more yeasty, it was had a thicker mouthfeel. It was

898
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: oh you think so, Yeah, it was like more chewy.

899
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 2: It was a jewel. I thought it was a joy

900
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: joy to drink this one. But it's also I'm getting

901
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,959
Speaker 2: more and more into loggers because I've had my mouth

902
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 2: obliterated by so many beers over the years that just

903
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 2: kind of something a little bit chill, but that also

904
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 2: has a little bit of mouthfeel, a little bit flavor

905
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 2: action going on. This This beer's like hitting.

906
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: The spot for me.

907
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, somehow it's got that weight in the body while simultaneously,

908
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 4: like right on the edge of my tongue, it's still

909
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 4: really bright and kind of lemon citrusy.

910
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: Almost like where it still feels like it's a I

911
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: don't know.

912
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 4: Maybe that's because it's a fresh beer as opposed to

913
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 4: something that's been sitting on the shelves for months on end.

914
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 2: Or maybe it's because of the top fermentation, whatever that means.

915
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's that, Joel.

916
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 4: But glad you and I got to enjoy this one

917
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 4: on today's episode, and head over to hotamoney dot com

918
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 4: or we'll have links to all of the different resources

919
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 4: that Phil Buchanan that he mentioned during our conversation's link

920
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 4: to we've got an article about Daffy ar favorite, Yeah,

921
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 4: donor advice fund. Yeah, we talked about Dafts there towards

922
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 4: the end, but yeah, we're big fans. And my criticism

923
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 4: that the little thing that it's not a doubt, I

924
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 4: guess in the back of my mind. But it's the

925
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 4: only question. Is the thing that he addressed where it's

926
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 4: just like, if you use a donor advised fund, folks,

927
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 4: make sure that you are not just sitting on it

928
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,919
Speaker 4: and somehow using that increasing number to make you feel

929
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 4: good about yourself, right, Like it's really it should be

930
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 4: the number of dollars that you are able to deploy,

931
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 4: and sticking that money in a donor advice fund isn't

932
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 4: actually deploying the dollars. It's just sort of sitting there

933
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 4: in this charity purgatory of both sorts.

934
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, but we'll link to that too, because

935
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: Daffy is the lowest cost donor advice fund that we

936
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 2: know of, and they do a great job, and that's

937
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 2: where we have our do over there. They've got a

938
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: great product, no doubt, all right, Matt, that's going to

939
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: do it for this one. Until next time. Best friends

940
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 2: out and best friends out