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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you today?

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Speaker 1: I'm great, Paul? How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am hanging in there. What's been going on?

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Speaker 1: Well? I saw this little newspaper article that said that

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Speaker 1: the company you worked for had been able to uncover

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Speaker 1: the DNA found on the nice sheaf in the Idaho murders.

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Speaker 1: And you were very good at keeping secrets, because I

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Speaker 1: would have. I would have. I can't believe I didn't

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Speaker 1: get that out of you. It didn't even occur to me.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell us?

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Speaker 2: I know some of this is still top secret, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm very limited in terms of what I

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Speaker 2: can say about that case and Authoram's involvement. I will

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Speaker 2: just say that AUTHORAM was involved. I'd host State Police

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Speaker 2: Crime Lab did the initial processing, and then of course

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Speaker 2: once they got a DNA sample from the nice sheath,

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Speaker 2: a part of that sample went to AUTHORAM, who was

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Speaker 2: able to develop the genealogy compatible SNIP profile and start

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Speaker 2: at the genealogy process.

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Speaker 1: As generic and non top secret way is possible. Can

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Speaker 1: you explain how much do you need? Is this a

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Speaker 1: misperception from people?

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Speaker 2: Well, obviously there was enough to test. Okay, okay, because

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Speaker 2: you know, with the law enforcement lab, you know, they

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Speaker 2: generated a profile that went up into COTIS and then

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Speaker 2: authorm was able to generate a profile, so there was

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Speaker 2: enough to at least sample that DNA extract twice. Now

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Speaker 2: I can't say how much they actually got out of

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Speaker 2: that sample, but modern DNA technology is extraordinarily sensitive, so

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Speaker 2: we are talking on the order of like one hundred pakograms.

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Speaker 2: This is where I don't want to say single cell sensitive,

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Speaker 2: but in essence we are down at a level to

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Speaker 2: where you have DNA from a few cells that under

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Speaker 2: the right conditions you can generate a profile and be

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Speaker 2: able to forensically go after the database, whether it be

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Speaker 2: on the law enforcement side with COTIS or on the

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Speaker 2: genealogy side with like jed match and family Tree DNA.

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Speaker 1: And this is where I think it gets a little

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Speaker 1: tricky with all the online speculation about cases like these

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Speaker 1: is you know, I had been reading people saying, you

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Speaker 1: can't get enough on here, that's the only thing that

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Speaker 1: is indicating, you know, that Colberger is involved. And then

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Speaker 1: of course we saw what happened, you know, where he

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Speaker 1: pleads guilty and admits to all of it. So I

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Speaker 1: feel like making assumptions where you are not properly trained

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Speaker 1: and then spewing it out everywhere it can be a

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Speaker 1: little bit dangerous. I know it's probably exciting and fun,

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Speaker 1: but still it really to me felt like this is

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Speaker 1: this was too much speculation around that particular part of science.

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Speaker 2: Correct, you know. And this is where like I get

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Speaker 2: pulled in by various if you want to call them, online,

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Speaker 2: but even news type organizations to be the talking head.

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Speaker 2: And I asked and have said, I will only comment

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Speaker 2: when there's official information that is put out by law enforcement,

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Speaker 2: the courts, et cetera. So for the Coldberger case. The

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Speaker 2: only time I commented publicly about that case was when

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Speaker 2: the affidavit for arrest was issued, and I only commented

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Speaker 2: about the facts that the investigator wrote in the affidavit

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Speaker 2: that went to a magistrate in order to get the

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Speaker 2: PC the arrest warrant. There is so much speculation when

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Speaker 2: it comes to looking at cases through whatever medium you're consuming.

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Speaker 2: I will tell you just cases during the course of

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Speaker 2: my career which were covered by news organizations, you know,

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Speaker 2: where you actually have reporters or journalists that are trying

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Speaker 2: to convey the facts, but because they don't understand maybe

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Speaker 2: the underpinnings of the science, they write things in their

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Speaker 2: articles or they say things during the news broadcast which

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Speaker 2: is factually wrong from somebody who's got the forensics background,

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Speaker 2: and you're going, Nope, that's not exactly what that is conveying.

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Speaker 2: I even way back during the oj Simpson case, I

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Speaker 2: was interviewed by a Bay Area news reporter and I

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Speaker 2: saw them take an answer that I gave to one

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Speaker 2: question and they spliced in a different question and used

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Speaker 2: my answer and it was factually wrong. And I was thinking,

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Speaker 2: you're making me look like an idiot, And I don't

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Speaker 2: know if that was a mistake they thought, oh, that

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Speaker 2: answer is better with this question, or they were just

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Speaker 2: trying to make something more sensational, you know, which would

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Speaker 2: be absolutely negligent. You want to report the facts. So

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Speaker 2: that is where you know, I've got a tremendous history

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Speaker 2: with you know, the online communities related to looking at

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Speaker 2: these cases, you know, whether it be Zodiac or Golden

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Speaker 2: State Killer. And there are some amazingly bright individuals that

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Speaker 2: are well intentioned in this online slothing community, but oftentimes

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Speaker 2: the discussions that occur and some of the conclusions of

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Speaker 2: opinions that the online people form just don't correlate with

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Speaker 2: the facts that are in the case file. And they

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Speaker 2: don't have access to the complete case files. They're just

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Speaker 2: relying upon, well, what was reported in the media, whether

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Speaker 2: it be a TV show or a newspaper article, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And again it's just where now you got to You

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Speaker 2: got to be careful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And from the journalist's perspective, you know, we

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Speaker 1: train our students at the University of Texas. You need

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Speaker 1: to go back and you don't do just your own

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Speaker 1: fact checking. You should always call the people who you're

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Speaker 1: interviewing and say, Paul, listen, can I go over some

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Speaker 1: of the stuff that you said and make sure that

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Speaker 1: I've framed it correctly. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people don't do that, and that's really what you should do.

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Speaker 1: I remember submitting something for The New York Times. I

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Speaker 1: was writing an article about something, and it was unreal

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Speaker 1: the amount of fact checking that they did and called

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Speaker 1: me back and said, where did you get this source?

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking, that's that's the vigor, you know.

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Speaker 1: I know it always isn't like that at every place,

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Speaker 1: but that's what you should be looking for, especially something

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Speaker 1: like this. So anyway, my whole point of this is

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Speaker 1: that I was surprised when I saw it because you

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Speaker 1: were so tight lipped. So now I think the audience

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Speaker 1: knows if you have a secret, a juicy secret, you

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Speaker 1: can trust Paul Holes with that secret.

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Speaker 2: Well, but that's also part if you take a look

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Speaker 2: at where I'm at, you know, even though I'm in

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Speaker 2: this true crime genre, I am still consulting with law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: And if I burn law enforcement and let's say, divulge

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Speaker 2: something publicly that they do not want to have divulge,

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Speaker 2: I'm shooting myself in the foot with my credibility moving forward,

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Speaker 2: as I want to continue work in unsolved cases with

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Speaker 2: law enforcement. So yes, I have. You know, I consult

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Speaker 2: on a lot of cases. There's a lot of information

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Speaker 2: on cases, some high profile, some not that I can't discuss.

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Speaker 2: You know, those are facts, and I may never be

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Speaker 2: able to discuss them even after the case is solved,

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Speaker 2: just because of some of the aspects related to the

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Speaker 2: circumstances of the case.

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Speaker 1: Well, now I know, and I promise to divulge everything

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Speaker 1: about this case coming up because it's a big, big case.

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Speaker 1: I've actually I normally will say this is a listener's suggestion.

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Speaker 1: This is multiple listeners suggestions. I've heard about this. It's

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Speaker 1: not like Dahlia. I've heard about this case for a

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Speaker 1: very long time and I had never really gotten into it.

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Speaker 1: So I think that you'll you'll find this one to

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Speaker 1: be really interesting. So let's go ahead and set the scene. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we are back on a train. We've had a couple

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Speaker 1: of trained stories now, which I love. I love Agatha

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Speaker 1: Christie loved putting people on trains and cruise ships and

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Speaker 1: trapping them in different areas. It's a mystery. So anytime

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Speaker 1: I see we have a train story. I get excited.

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Speaker 1: So and we've talked about you haven't had a ton

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Speaker 1: of train experience. I know, we talked about the Pike's

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Speaker 1: Peak I think is the one of the train things

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Speaker 1: trams that you had been on, maybe.

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Speaker 2: The COG Railway, which if you come to Colorado Springs,

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Speaker 2: I highly suggest you do that, preferably in the summertime

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Speaker 2: because when you get up to fourteen thousand feet, even

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Speaker 2: in the summertime, it's freezing. And if it's in the wintertime, yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: it's miserable when you step outside. But it's an amazing

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Speaker 2: experience to ride up Pike's Peak and go through the

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Speaker 2: forest and then get above the tree line once you

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Speaker 2: get to a certain altitude. So that's in terms of

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Speaker 2: riding the train. That's one. And then of course the

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Speaker 2: Napa Wine Train I've been on several times.

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Speaker 1: Several times. AnyWho, we're back on a train. This is

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Speaker 1: LA and it is nineteen thirty one, so it's seven

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Speaker 1: forty five in the morning, and this is a train

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Speaker 1: called the Golden State Limited, which pulls into Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: Central Station, and it came from Phoenix, where I had

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Speaker 1: departed at eight o'clock the night before. I've always dreamed

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Speaker 1: of being on an overnight train. I thought that sounded

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Speaker 1: very romantic. I'm not sure this is the romantic train.

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Speaker 1: I would be thinking. This sounds like, you know, just

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Speaker 1: sort of a typical train where you're falling asleep sitting

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Speaker 1: straight up. But I don't know. But this is not

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Speaker 1: a luxury train, it's my understanding. So it's coming from Phoenix.

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Speaker 1: There were two large black steamer trunks that were loaded

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Speaker 1: onto the train when in Phoenix the night before, and

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Speaker 1: nobody really knew who who left the trunks. They just

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Speaker 1: knew the porters just knew they had to load the

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Speaker 1: trunks onto the train and they will become a central

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Speaker 1: point here for us. So the train rolls in in

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Speaker 1: the morning and the porters start walking around where the

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Speaker 1: carriages that's carrying all of these pieces of luggage. There

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Speaker 1: are the trunks, and they smell.

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Speaker 2: It's not a good sign.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a good sign for the own or

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Speaker 1: for you know, the people trying to unload it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I mean, I know you know where this is heading.

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Speaker 1: But I'll be dramatic and we'll talk about it in

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Speaker 1: more detail. There's a large trunk and a smaller trunk.

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Speaker 1: The larger trunk has been oozing, and both trunks are

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Speaker 1: emitting a foul, putrid odor, and the night baggage man

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Speaker 1: thinks that a passenger has tried to cross state lines

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Speaker 1: from Arizona into California with contraband deer meat. And you know,

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Speaker 1: venison smuggling was a big deal. You weren't allowed to

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Speaker 1: do that. And so they're assuming, I mean, we know

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Speaker 1: for our show this is not deer meat, but that's

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Speaker 1: the first assumption. They're not going to the depraved just yet.

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Speaker 1: He alerts the district baggage agent to hold these trunks

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Speaker 1: for further inspection, and they don't. Again, they don't know

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Speaker 1: who brought them on board to SCHET, but they're assuming

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Speaker 1: they're going to get claimed, hopefully at some point. So

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Speaker 1: this is this timeline to me, is wild. So this

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Speaker 1: train gets in at seven forty five, let's say eight o'clock.

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Speaker 1: They smell things. Now we're at noon, so we're talking

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Speaker 1: about four hours of sitting here in it's California, it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit warmer, and this stuff is smelling, and

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Speaker 1: nobody wants to open it because it's locked with a key.

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Speaker 1: They can't pick it. And I've tried to pick my

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Speaker 1: luck because I locked it accidentally on my trunk and

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Speaker 1: I had no luck picking it. So now we're at

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Speaker 1: noon and there's a woman and a college aged young

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Speaker 1: man who approached the front office and they say, these

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Speaker 1: are our trunks, and a clerk recognizes this guy. The

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Speaker 1: college age young man is Burton McKinnel, So Burton McKinnel,

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Speaker 1: and he is a USC student University of Southern California.

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Speaker 1: They recognize him because he had been kind of off

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Speaker 1: and on again helping station agents load and unload baggage

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Speaker 1: over the last Christmas holiday just to make extra money.

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Speaker 1: So they say this smells to the man and the

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Speaker 1: woman to burten in this woman they say, these are

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Speaker 1: just personal items. I don't know why they smell, but

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Speaker 1: they're leaking. They don't have a good excuse. There's a

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Speaker 1: stain at this point on the concrete. They might still

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Speaker 1: have been thinking about deer meat contraband, but there are

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Speaker 1: flies swarming the stenches, nauseating at this point. Look at

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Speaker 1: your photo packet that I sent you the PDF.

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Speaker 2: So I see a photo that has two trunks, one

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Speaker 2: that is larger that is laying horizontally, so it's basically

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Speaker 2: laying in a position that these trunks typically would be

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Speaker 2: in order to open it. And then the smaller trunk

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Speaker 2: is on its end, so it's more vertical. These trunks

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Speaker 2: appear to be black or very dark color, with a

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Speaker 2: lot of decorative beating around the edges of each face,

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Speaker 2: as well as ornamental latches and hinges, and have the

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Speaker 2: protective metal corner covers. You know, so they're designed for shipping.

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Speaker 2: There's no question about it. You know, these are true

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Speaker 2: steamer trunks. In this photo, both trunks are completely closed.

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Speaker 2: I don't see anything indicating that there has been attempt

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Speaker 2: to open them. At this point. There appears to be

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Speaker 2: a sticker on the front of the larger trunk, but

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Speaker 2: I can't make out whatever emblem or design is on

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Speaker 2: that sticker. And then there's a man who is squatted

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Speaker 2: down next to the larger trunk, who is dressed in

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Speaker 2: a suit and has a hat on. And I just

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Speaker 2: don't know my hats, but it's one of those. It's

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Speaker 2: not a top hat, it's it's.

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Speaker 1: A it's just your standard cop hat, right.

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Speaker 2: He looks like he's in a position of authority. I

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Speaker 2: guess that's all I can say. And then it appears

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Speaker 2: that he's focusing in on something on the larger trunk.

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Speaker 1: YEP, and they are growing more. We're concerned because it

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Speaker 1: is spilling out all over. At this point, the district

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Speaker 1: baggage agent says, open the trunks, and you know, they say,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to be liable for any kind of

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Speaker 1: damage to the items, and so she they asked this couple,

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Speaker 1: but they say that the keys are at home, and

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Speaker 1: so we'll leave and then we'll come back. And they

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Speaker 1: let them leave because they don't have proof of anything

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Speaker 1: except of a stinky couple of trunks.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the questions that's got to be

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Speaker 2: going through their head if they're thinking this is, you know,

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Speaker 2: smuggled venison. You know, it's only been lesson maybe half

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Speaker 2: a day, a little more than half a day since

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Speaker 2: it left Phoenix. Obviously, whoever is smuggling this venison didn't

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Speaker 2: package it appropriately in order to keep it preserved, so

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Speaker 2: it's actually useful to whoever's going to grab it on

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Speaker 2: the other end.

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Speaker 1: And then this timeline gets even longer. Four thirty they

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Speaker 1: haven't come back, so you know, again I go back

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Speaker 1: to the timeline. They arrive at seven forty five in

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Speaker 1: the morning. Now we're at four point thirty, and the

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Speaker 1: district baggage agent, the guy we saw in the photo,

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Speaker 1: says that's it, and they called the police. Nine hours afterward,

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Speaker 1: Detective Frank Ryan comes at five o'clock. He immediately recognizes

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Speaker 1: the dark ooze as blood, and he picks the lock

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Speaker 1: and he's going to open up the trunk in a second.

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Speaker 1: But at what stage of of because you guys know,

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Speaker 1: come on, there's body in at least one of these trunks.

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Speaker 1: But at what stage of decomp does it turn brown?

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Speaker 1: Where you have a guy who's in his mid forties

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Speaker 1: who doesn't recognize that's this nasty stuff on the concrete

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Speaker 1: as blood. I mean, I guess it really does it

286
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Speaker 1: turns that kind of brown?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a I mean, blood can assume a whole

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Speaker 2: spectrum of colors from the very bright red to black

289
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Speaker 2: and anything in between. And then if you get mold

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Speaker 2: growing on it or funk, you know, fungus, you most

291
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Speaker 2: certainly you can have different appearances that that blood stain

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Speaker 2: can assume. Now, if you have blood that's leaking out

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Speaker 2: of this trunk and it's not bright red. Then you

294
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Speaker 2: know it's it is. It's sat for a while and

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Speaker 2: with the smell with the flies, there is you know,

296
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Speaker 2: putre faction that has occurred. There's a decompositional process that

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Speaker 2: is occurring, and it's it's hard to say it, you know,

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Speaker 2: right now, just because the blood is dark, Well, how

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Speaker 2: long has it been, you know? Or what were they

300
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Speaker 2: actually seeing? You know? Was this something where you have

301
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Speaker 2: blood that is seeping due to injuries to a body

302
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Speaker 2: inside and then now it's leaking out through this trunk.

303
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Speaker 2: It's not fresh. That's probably the only thing that I

304
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,480
Speaker 2: could conclude at this point, just due to the color.

305
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Speaker 2: But at what stage decomposition I can't say, just based

306
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Speaker 2: off of the color of the blood.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So they look inside in the big trunk. There

308
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Speaker 1: is a piece of a rug, there are books, there

309
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Speaker 1: are assorted papers, and there are shreds of bloodstained women's clothing.

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Speaker 1: They look under a handmade quilt and they find the

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Speaker 1: body of a dark haired woman. I don't have a

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Speaker 1: photo of this person, but I'll just describe it. So

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Speaker 1: she's wearing pink pajamas, she has curled in the fetal position,

314
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Speaker 1: and she is in a terrible, bad state of decomposition.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to make out her features on her face

316
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Speaker 1: because there's so much bloating, and this is a whole body,

317
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Speaker 1: unlike who we're going to discover next.

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Speaker 2: What time of year is this. It's nineteen thirty one, It.

319
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Speaker 1: Is October nineteenth, but it has been unusually warm, both

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Speaker 1: in Phoenix, which was the origination, and then in la

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Speaker 1: which is the destination.

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Speaker 2: Right, So these trunks, of course have been transported from

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Speaker 2: Phoenix to la in unair conditioned environment, so they even

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Speaker 2: though it's overnight, there'd be some cooling, of course, you know,

325
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Speaker 2: But it sounds like with the bloating the smell that

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Speaker 2: this woman was likely dead for a period of time

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Speaker 2: before being put into the trunk, is what I am

328
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Speaker 2: guessing without actually seeing the photos.

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe this next bit will clarify things for you.

330
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Speaker 1: There is in the smaller trunk. When they open it

331
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Speaker 1: up they pick the lock, there are sheets of paper

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Speaker 1: smeared with blood, and they are laying on top of

333
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Speaker 1: a light cotton sheet. And there is a woman's body

334
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Speaker 1: from the head to the navel only okay, her arms

335
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Speaker 1: are crossed across her breasts in the center of the

336
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Speaker 1: trunk is where she is. On either side of the head,

337
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: there are two bundles of women's clothing. Each bundle contains

338
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Speaker 1: a foot and a leg, and the rest of her

339
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 1: body is missing. This is significantly less bloated, and the

340
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: police say it's because there's less fluid in her. Now,

341
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 1: I don't know why the why that's the case. And

342
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,440
Speaker 1: we will have photos of this woman. I just didn't

343
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Speaker 1: know when you wanted to see them.

344
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Speaker 2: Now when they are describing bloating when a body decomposes,

345
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Speaker 2: and you know you live in Texas and you've probably

346
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Speaker 2: seen this, so I'm not sure you've paid much attention.

347
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,640
Speaker 2: But if you watch roadkill and animals on the side

348
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 2: of the road, and then over the course of the

349
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 2: next few days, you see that animal blow up like

350
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Speaker 2: a balloon. It's legs end up sticking out, sort of

351
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 2: like a raccoon.

352
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Speaker 1: I've never seen that, and I hope to never see that, Paul,

353
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Speaker 1: But thank you.

354
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 2: For start paying attention.

355
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, No, the vultures get to it. I

356
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: think beforehand they drag a deer off the side of

357
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Speaker 1: the road here, So anyway.

358
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there could be mitigating factors out there, but

359
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 2: no but you know a lot of that that that

360
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,680
Speaker 2: abdominal bloating is coming from the gases that are generated

361
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 2: by the bacteria that are within the intestines, and so

362
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 2: now you get a lot of these gases that haven't

363
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 2: been able to escape yet, and so the body bloats

364
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,880
Speaker 2: up and so the abdomen ends up being very distended.

365
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 2: Here in this case with the part of the women's body. Well,

366
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 2: now what you've got is you've you've an essence opened

367
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 2: up the body, so the gases aren't being contained, so

368
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: they're the bloating aspect isn't part of what is that

369
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 2: body is experiencing because it's already been I hate to

370
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 2: use the term popped, but in essence, that's what's happened.

371
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,200
Speaker 2: I've been in a morgue with a very bloated body

372
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: and the pathologist came over with a scalpel and just

373
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 2: stabbed the abdomen and then it was just a it's

374
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 2: just like a balloon.

375
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Speaker 1: Disclaimer at the beginning of this somehow, please don't be

376
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: eating while we have this discussion.

377
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 2: You know, But but that's yeah, I think that that's

378
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: you know, what is going on here versus what did

379
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 2: you say they they drew a conclusion.

380
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: That they said that the body had significantly the second

381
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: one had significantly less bloating because they had said there's

382
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 1: less fluid and it's because she was dismembered and the

383
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: blood must have come out at the actual scene versus

384
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: this whole body in the first trunk.

385
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they're they're not they're not factually correct,

386
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 2: But you know, the dismemberment is is really the reason

387
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: why they're not seeing the bloating. Now, I don't I

388
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 2: don't know if the body is showing signs of decomposition

389
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 2: that is equivalent to the other body in the larger

390
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 2: trunk or not. You know, So there would be other

391
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 2: signs that could be looked for, such as marbling through

392
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 2: the blood vessels, skin slippage, et cetera, that might indicate

393
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: that this dismembered body was possibly at the same stage

394
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: decomposition as the whole body in the larger trunk. But

395
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: right now, I don't know.

396
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: Do you want to see photos of the body, And

397
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: what I will tell you is the most to me,

398
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: the most gruesome autopsy photos I've ever seen, And of

399
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: course we will not be putting on social media. Sure,

400
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 1: or do you want to hear more about what's found

401
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: in other body parts and stuff like that in the

402
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: other pieces of luggage.

403
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: Which one first, Well, let's complete the luggage and then

404
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 2: I can go and take a look at the autopsy photos.

405
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So in these trunks there are photos of the victims,

406
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you about them in a little bit.

407
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: So there a detective finds a green saw edged bread knife,

408
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: so serrated knife, I'm assuming, with a blade about ten

409
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: inches long, and two women's purses. One purse contains three

410
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: twenty five caliber shells exploded. The other purse contains a

411
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: fourth shell and a spent bullet and a few wisps

412
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: of hair sticking to the bloody glass of a picture frame.

413
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: And then there's more, but I don't know if you

414
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about that stuff first.

415
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: You know, this is where it gets suspicious, is that

416
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: you have in one purse you have three twenty five

417
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: caliber cartridge cases. You know, you use the term shell,

418
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: but technically it's a cartridge case. So this is a

419
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: this is a round of ammunition that has been discharged

420
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: and the cartridge case the shell is remaining inside the gun,

421
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 2: or if it's a semi auto. It's been ejected out,

422
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 2: so somebody's taken time to scoop up these three cartridge

423
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: cases and put them in this purse. Now, we don't

424
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: know if these cartridge cases are related to the homicide

425
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: of these victims yet or not. Then you have another

426
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: purse that has a twenty five caliber cartridge case plus

427
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: a bullet. And then you said there was some hair associated.

428
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: In this time period, it was common for you to

429
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: kind of have there's like a favorite motto or favorite phrase,

430
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: and you would print it out or have it printed

431
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: and then frame it. There is that kind of a

432
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: frame with a motto that nobody can read because there's

433
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: blood and broken glass all over it. And there's some

434
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: hair sticking to the bloody glass of this picture frame.

435
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: No interesting.

436
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if they were hit by this, somebody

437
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: was hit over the head with this frame or how

438
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 1: does it end up in the trunk. This seems messy.

439
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I think it's hard to say without taking

440
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: a look at the photos. You know, this is part

441
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: of you know, processing this trunk is documenting every layer

442
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: as you remove items, you know, and this may have

443
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: been an item that was in this trunk before the

444
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: body was placed in there, and that's the reason why

445
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: it's broken. That's why it has blood. And maybe some

446
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: hair got caught up, you know, on that you know,

447
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: or it was something that at the crime scene, you know,

448
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: where the victim's killed. Whatever happened caused blood and hair

449
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: to get onto this frame, if you will, and that

450
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: the offender noticed and said, well, I got to clean

451
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 2: things up and place it into the trunk. Who knows,

452
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 2: you know, there's all sorts of possibilities right now.

453
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's talk about some more discoveries before we

454
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: finally leave this awful crime scene. Inside of the in

455
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: the waiting area of this train station, someone notices behind

456
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: the door of the women's bathroom there are two more items.

457
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: One is a woman's worn tan suitcase and another is

458
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: a hat box. And in a minute, I have photos

459
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: of all four of the items together, so you can

460
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: kind of see size and stuff like that.

461
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: Where are these found? These are found in the train

462
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: bathroom area.

463
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: So in the depot. Yeah, so as if someone got

464
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: off the train had these two items and left them behind,

465
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: got it the women's bathroom or maybe they're not connected,

466
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: I mean, but they think this is weird. Why would

467
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: somebody abandon these nice items exactly?

468
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: You know, so you have to pay attention into it, yep.

469
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: Okay, So there's another detective who shows up. His name

470
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: is David Davidson. Okay, David Davidson. He arrives on the

471
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: scene at eleven twenty pm. And so, I mean, I

472
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: just I don't know why I think this is incredible,

473
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: but it is sort of is that eight hours or something,

474
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: almost ten hours after this train forced pulls in. In

475
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: his report, he says that he opened the old tan

476
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: suitcase and there is another section of the body that

477
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: had been dismembered. It is the lower female torso so

478
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: waist to knees, clothed in pink pajamas and wrapped in

479
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: a sheet and a blanket in this suitcase. Okay, And

480
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: I'm going to want to see these pretty soon because

481
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: I can't imagine being able to hide somebody in a

482
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: suitcase or any of these items really that big, I guess.

483
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: So you know, I don't know what size suitcase we're

484
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: looking at, but a larger suitcase, if you pass package

485
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: a lower body of maybe a smaller human, absolutely can

486
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: hold that. I mean, that doesn't surprise me.

487
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: At all, okay, let me tell you a couple more things,

488
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: and then i'll show you. I think it's gonna be

489
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: three photos in a row, and then we'll get to

490
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: the autopsy stuff. So this torso is missing intestines and

491
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: a bladder, and in the hat box. So the torso's

492
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: in the brown little suitcase. In the hat box there

493
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: is an empty surgeon's bag, which has also on the

494
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: side surgical dressing, one old kit of surgeons instruments, one

495
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: twenty five caliber cult automatic pistol, several pieces of women's

496
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: wearing apparel is what they called it, forty rounds with

497
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: one box Winchester twenty five automatic cartridges, and miscellaneous cosmetics.

498
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: What is happening? I mean, it's just like haphazard throw

499
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: this in here and so makeup in here along with

500
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: the torso. I don't get it.

501
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I would say, at this point, obviously

502
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: we have two dead females. The offender had access to

503
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 2: a large steamer box that an adult feel I'm assuming

504
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: this these are adult females at this point, but I

505
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: don't know that they are. Okay, So the larger steamer

506
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: box he was able to place a whole body into.

507
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: But now he's got another victim that in order to

508
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: be able to transport, he's having to cut that victim

509
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 2: up and distribute her body parts across the two the

510
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: smaller steamer trunk and the tan suitcase. And my understanding

511
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: is no body parts are in the hat box right now.

512
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: No body parts as far as I know, are in

513
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: the hat box right.

514
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: So the hat box is containing the what he's seeing

515
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: as the evidence of the crime. He's got the pistol that,

516
00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: at least caliber wise, is matching the spent rounds found

517
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: in these two purses, presuming those purses are each of

518
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: the victims purses, so that potentially could be the murder weapon.

519
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: We don't know how these victims are killed yet, but

520
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: that's that's a possibility. And then he's got the source

521
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: of the ammo. He's got the wind the box of

522
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: Winchester twenty five caliber ammo, and then the surgeon's bag.

523
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: And you know this this is interesting. Does this mean

524
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: that this guy actually does have medical training or is

525
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: this just something he had access to and utilize the

526
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 2: implements in order to dismember the bodies. So he's trying

527
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: to get the victim's body away from Phoenix. He's trying

528
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: to get the primary items of evidence. Yeah, so he's

529
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: in essence, it sounds like he's trying to clean up

530
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: a crime scene out in Phoenix. It's just like, why

531
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: put all this on a train and ship it and

532
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: then you have people coming to claim these items. So

533
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: that's that's intriguing, you know. But he's he's leaving some clues.

534
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: You know, there's definitely investigative leads that can be followed

535
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: with this. It's definitely an intriguing case. You got here, Kate, Well.

536
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: There you go. I know that's the goal pull holes,

537
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: As I say, how often. Now I have a question

538
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: the lower female torso that we were just talking about

539
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: waste to knees and they say it's missing intestines and bladder.

540
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: Is that significant or is that whoops, it fell behind

541
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: and I don't have time to pack it up to

542
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: these two things, or we don't know.

543
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: Well at this point don't know. You know, the bisection

544
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: of this second victim who's in the smaller trunk, don't

545
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: have an accounting for what all is present within the

546
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: upper part of her body. But the fact that they

547
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: are saying intestines are gone, the bladder's gone. This is

548
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: something that the offender, for whatever reason, did not include

549
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: in the transport. Now, when you bisect a body, particularly

550
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: you know, below the stomach level, the primary organ that

551
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: you're having to deal with are these testines, and they

552
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: have a tendency to kind of be messy. And I

553
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: could see where this person's going. This is going in

554
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 2: a garbage bag and I'm going to screw it, dump

555
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: it somewhere else, versus trying to package that up and

556
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: try to squeeze it into the trunk. It may just

557
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: be a practical reason why the intestines and the bladder

558
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: just may be part of the person. You know, going

559
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: down inside the body to in essence remove the intestines

560
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: by cutting through the rectum area and is also taking

561
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: the bladder out at the same time. You know, I see,

562
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, when you watch autopsies, you see how pathologists

563
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: will go through and remove the internal organs and they're

564
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: having to go down low down to where you know,

565
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: the rectum and the bladder are in order to access

566
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: those organs.

567
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: What kind of person do members? I've never understood that.

568
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: I can understand almost every type of murder. What's the

569
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: word where you drain the blood.

570
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: Exanguination, I think is how you say.

571
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: I somehow can wrap my head around all of that,

572
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: but not some who can dismember who's you know, not

573
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: a surgeon or somebody who's trained, And we don't know

574
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: what that is, but it just seems like a totally

575
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: different mindset to me.

576
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: It's a mindset I think for most offenders that resort

577
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: to dismemberment, they are in a mode of self preservation

578
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: and they're trying to get rid of this body. You know.

579
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: I have a case, the Helser case out in Conquered

580
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: California and an elderly couple and then the girlfriend of

581
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: one of the offenders. They were horrifically dismembered, but they

582
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: were dismembered using like power saws. The legs are being

583
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: cut off at the thigh level. You know, there was

584
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: no careful dissection that is occurring at all, and that

585
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: was literally to package them up in smaller duffel bags

586
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: and dump them into Delta. So, you know, I think

587
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: for most that dismemberment is just a practical aspect to

588
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: be able to transport bodies, and some have the stomach

589
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: to be able to handle that. Some may have some experience,

590
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: whether they're butchers, medical training, have hunters dealing with dressing

591
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: animals or serial predators that grew up torturing animals and

592
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 2: dismembering those bodies, so they have sort of a comfort

593
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 2: with dealing with that. But then you also have offenders

594
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: that resort to dismemberment, and they're going off and throwing

595
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: up during the dismemberment process.

596
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: Okay, I have the boring photos, which I know you

597
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: want to see. So if you look at you like

598
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: all photos, if you look at pages two, three, four,

599
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: you see the bag that hat box.

600
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the photo of the hat box. This is

601
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: a photo showing this circular case with the lid open.

602
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: The case looks like it's on the order of maybe

603
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: eight inches eight to ten inches deep. I'm surprised at

604
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: sort of the inner cloth that's inside this case. It's

605
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: got like a pocket that's been put into the lid. So,

606
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a a fairly nice travel case,

607
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: if you will, for smaller items. You know, they're calling

608
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: it a hat case, but you could definitely use this

609
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 2: to transport all sorts of things. You know, looking at

610
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 2: these these steamer trunks and this hat case, these weren't

611
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: cheap items. This does not look like riff raft type

612
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: of items. You know, these look like somebody who is

613
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: willing to pay decent money for travel purposes. You know.

614
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: In this photo of the hat case, there is one

615
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: of the purses.

616
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: Look at the photo on page three, it looks like that.

617
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: I think that's a corset. And then it looks like

618
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: there's some bullets posted up above. This is just this

619
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: looks just like a dump of all the evidence they found.

620
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: I see a shoe and that second one of jacket.

621
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: Maybe it's like somebody packed to go to Vegas and

622
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: it's left back quickly or something.

623
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: First you commented about these bullets, So that's that's actually

624
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: a display of different calibers of bullets that are often

625
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: found in laboratories, particularly back in the day. So what

626
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 2: you'll see is you'll see these bullets mounted on this

627
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: board and they have a number associated with them, and

628
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 2: then over to the right you see the number and

629
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: it's going to be the sort of the brand of

630
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: the bullet, the caliber of the bullet, et cetera. So

631
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: this would be like a reference chart that a firearms

632
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: examiner back in the day would use and go, oh,

633
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 2: this twenty five caliber matches this make and model of bullet.

634
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: So they sometimes they wouldn't automatically say, oh, that's definitely

635
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: a twenty five or that's definitely a forty five. They

636
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: would sometimes they need to chart.

637
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 2: There's measurements that they would take. You know, some of

638
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: these bullets when they're used in shootings and recovered out

639
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: of victim's body or from a crime scene are deformed,

640
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 2: and so they have to weigh the bullet. Do they

641
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: have all the bullet? They have to pay attention, is

642
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 2: it just a lead bullet, does it have jackety gun it?

643
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: What kind of jacketing, does it have any neuraling. There's

644
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,959
Speaker 2: all sorts of characteristics that they would use to try

645
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: to identify, you know, the make of that particular bullet

646
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: as well as the caliber. And so that's what we're

647
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: seeing here. But kind of in the foreground is you know,

648
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: other items of evidence, and you mentioned what would be

649
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: described as a course set, which I'm assuming is this

650
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: white object clothing item that's in front.

651
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: I think, but I'm not sure and I didn't read

652
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: that on the description. I'm not one hundred percent sure.

653
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I couldn't identify it's obviously an item of clothing,

654
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 2: but it appears that there are some blood stains on

655
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 2: it that appear to be drops that have hit this

656
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: item at an angle based off of the you know,

657
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: these little pointers of the blood on the edges, and

658
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: in the photograph, a couple of these blood drops obviously

659
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: hit this item. Whether it be they were projected or

660
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 2: this item just happened to be grazed by these blood

661
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: drops from from right to left. And then yeah, I

662
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: see the shoe. There appears to be maybe a jacket

663
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: with fur collar or fur something. And then other items

664
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: appear to be piled you know this this photo, oh,

665
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: it's actually on butcher paper. So they have removed these

666
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 2: items from one of the cases, I don't know which

667
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: case and dumped them on this butcher paper. This really

668
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: isn't the way that you would document things. It's kind

669
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: of a pile back off.

670
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: Of the nineteen thirty one detectives. They're doing the best

671
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: they can pull.

672
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: So anyways, okay, and then the next item, the next

673
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: photo is just the two steamer trunks, and I'm assuming

674
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: the tan suitcase that's a lower.

675
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: Torso is where that was in that smaller suitcase.

676
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: You know, what's interesting with this photo. I've already described

677
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: the two steamer trunks, but you can see all the scratches.

678
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 2: These steamer trucks are well traveled. They're not brand new.

679
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: They have been used in just normal daily life by

680
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 2: whoever owned them. And then the tan suitcase. It's harder

681
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: to say what it is composed of. It almost appears

682
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: that it might have like a leather type exterior with

683
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: again the metal corner protective corners, as well as what

684
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 2: appeared to be leather straps which might be used to

685
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: help hold the suitcase clothes in case the latches fail

686
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: or something. But it also has extensive wear to it.

687
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 2: This did not happen just on the train from Phoenix

688
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: to LA. This suitcase is also well used.

689
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: Let me tell you about the autopsy of the first

690
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: woman who was in the fetal position. I don't have

691
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: photos of her. I told you we'll have photos in

692
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: a second of the other woman. So the LA's chief

693
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: autopsy surgeon is a guy named doctor A. F. Wagner,

694
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: so we'll just say doctor Wagner.

695
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: Okay.

696
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: He conducts the autopsy and he says that the woman

697
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: in a larger trunk was killed from a single contact

698
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: wound to the head, and the muzzle of the gun

699
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: had been held so close to her left temple that

700
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 1: there were powder burns around the entrance wound. And later

701
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: a ballistics expert would also testify that the bullet had

702
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: been fired downward and backward. There were no other bruises

703
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: or scratches or nothing else with her body. And they

704
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: identify her as a thirty two year old woman named

705
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: Agnes Anne Leroy, and we're going to call her Anne.

706
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 2: All right? And where is this contact wound to her head?

707
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: Is it in the temple the forehead?

708
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: It said it had been held so close to her

709
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: left temple that there were powder burns around the entrance wound.

710
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: But what is the downward and backward kind of standing

711
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: over her from behind?

712
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: So the downwards and backwards is relative to her body

713
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: in the anatomic position. Everybody has seen sketches where you

714
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: have a human body that is standing up, arms are out,

715
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 2: palms facing forward, and so the pathologist is looking at

716
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: this trajectory and when it's downwards, it indicates that it's

717
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: going from high to low within her head, and backwards

718
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: is from front to back. Now, we can't position the

719
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: shooter relative to the victim, because we don't know the

720
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 2: position the victim is in at the time she was shot.

721
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: Is she standing up, as she bent over, as she's sitting,

722
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: is she laying on her side, So the downwards and

723
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: backwards is just the trajectory through her head at this

724
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: point in time the contact wound to her left temple.

725
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 2: This is what we see in executions where the gun,

726
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: the muzzle of the gun, the front of the barrel

727
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 2: is pressed hard up against the victim's head and then

728
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: the shot is fired. What ends up happening is is

729
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: not only does the bullet go into the victim's head,

730
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 2: but all the gases from the firearms charge go inside

731
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: the head and oftentimes, if there isn't an exit wound

732
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: where the gases can escape on the other side of

733
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: the head, they will escape out that entrance wound. And

734
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: so you'll see this tearing of the scalp around the

735
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: entry wound. That's the gases escaping out the entry wound

736
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: and the powder burns because it's so close. Now what

737
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: you have is you have the singing of the tissues.

738
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 2: You have possibly fractured hair. When you start talking firearms.

739
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 2: This is truly what we call an explosive level force,

740
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: so hair will shatter, and so it's not uncommon to

741
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: have shattered hair adhere to the gun or be found

742
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: on the shooter's sleeve as an example, and you could

743
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: potentially and of course there's potential gunpowder, both partially burned

744
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: as well as unburned gunpowder being found within the entry wound.

745
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: And the reason her head is intact is because this

746
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: was a low powered weapon. It's a twenty five caliber.

747
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 2: If this had been something like a three fifty seven,

748
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 2: her head would have been blown open.

749
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the second woman because we will

750
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: have photos. So let me just tell you what would

751
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: they say in the autopsy, and then you can see

752
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: the photos. She had also been shot. The woman in

753
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: the trunk. Her name is Hedvig Sammy Samuelson, so we're

754
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 1: going with Sammy. She is twenty four. She had also

755
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: been shot. One bullet entered her left chest and lodged

756
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: in her left arm, a second bullet penetrated the ring

757
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: finger of her right hand, and a third bullet was

758
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: shot into her left temple at close range. The third

759
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: bullet is the cause of death. There's also a superficial

760
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: puncture wound in her left side of her neck. It's

761
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: not clear what the instrument would have been. Who knows,

762
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: but it was flimsy, so it could have been something

763
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: in the small trunk or in the mediums trunk. I

764
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: don't know. Dismemberment. According to the surgeon why to the

765
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: autopsy had taken place within hours of death, and that

766
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: is what we know medical wise about what happened to

767
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: these two women.

768
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 2: He as far you know, in terms of the gunshot wounds,

769
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: she has an entry into her left chest, but the

770
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: bullet is found lodged in her left arm. So this

771
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: is around that enters into her chest, exits and then

772
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: goes into her arm. This is a common thing that

773
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: really all it does is just indicate her arm is

774
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: in wherever the exit wound was was in the path

775
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 2: of that bullet after it exited out her chest, the

776
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: right ring finger having a bullet impact to it. That

777
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: may be because she's in a defensive posture. It may

778
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: not be, but that's something that we do see. When

779
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 2: you know somebody has a gun pointed at them, they

780
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 2: put their hands up and now when the shots are fired,

781
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 2: their hands end up getting hit by the rounds and

782
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: then she's executed. You know, she's got the gunshot wound

783
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: to the left temple, just like the first victim. Now

784
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: they're not describing it as a hard contact, right, that's.

785
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: Not what I saw now, not hard contact.

786
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 2: Okay, but it's probably a very close shot. And so

787
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 2: she's executed as well. But for whatever reason, you know,

788
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: it appears that she's aware she's being shot and she

789
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: is reacting to that shot before she's executed. The first

790
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: victim isn't showing that at all. Is it possible to

791
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: sequence these shots? And this is this is just speculation.

792
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: There's no hard science, if you will, in terms of

793
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 2: this reconstruction. But with the first victim, you know, no reaction,

794
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 2: no defense of posture wounds or anything like that. So

795
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: it's possible. You've have these two women, maybe both you know, asleep,

796
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: are both awake whatever. First victim is executed, and then

797
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,320
Speaker 2: the second victim notices this, and now she's react acting

798
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: and is now getting shot and it's taking multiple shots

799
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 2: because she's moving, and then now the offender is able

800
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: to come up and execute her as well.

801
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: Well. The time is here. Let's go ahead and look

802
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: at the photos. There are quite a few of them,

803
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: so you're starting on page five. This is Sammy, the

804
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: woman who was dismembered, and feel free to give just

805
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: enough information. These are terrible and this did remind me

806
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: of the black Dahlia photos from the scene there too.

807
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: So you know, the first page of the photos is

808
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: showing three photos of Sammy, and I'm going to kind

809
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 2: of go in a counterclockwise manner with the photos as

810
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: they're displayed on the page. So the upper right photo

811
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 2: is Sammy's upper torso, which it looks like she is

812
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: right maybe right at the belly button level. That's where

813
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: she has been bisecteds or lower body was removed from

814
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 2: the belly button level downwards. This photo is showing her

815
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: upper body, including her head, laying somewhat on the left

816
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 2: side but mostly on its back. Both arms are present,

817
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 2: She's nude. Her face doesn't look very disturbed. What's surprising

818
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: to me is the lack of blood, so I don't

819
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: know if this is after she's been cleaned up by

820
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: the the corner's office or if this is how she's found.

821
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: She looks very fresh. She does not look very decomposed

822
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: at all. I see the entry gunshot wound to her

823
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: left chest, which is actually quite high up. I would

824
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: say it's maybe two inches below her left collarbone, and

825
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: if that is actually found in her left arm, this

826
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: is a shot that is going from her upper breast

827
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: area and then is exiting probably around through her armpit area,

828
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: maybe a little lower, and then is found embedded in

829
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 2: her upper arm. But really devoid of any other types of,

830
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: you know, major injuries that I can see. There's no

831
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: stab wounds, There doesn't appear to be anything to indicate

832
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 2: severe beating. She has some discolorations in her face, but

833
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: I can't tell what exactly those are. And then the

834
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: next photo is her lower body, which is an essence

835
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: from her roughly her belly button level down to her knees,

836
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: and this is showing the wound that was used to

837
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 2: cut the lower body off. As you had mentioned, the

838
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: pathologist had noted or there's the lack of the intestines

839
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: and bladder in this lower body as well as in

840
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: the upper body, so the offender is purposely getting rid

841
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: of those is not including those within the suitcase. There

842
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: is also a very large incision to her right hip

843
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 2: that starts literally at the upper part of the hip

844
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: and then goes down into her growin area. I would

845
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: say that that's the offender initially considering removing her right

846
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: thigh and abandonons doing that and then ends up just

847
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 2: you know, keeping this hole versus further dismembering it. And

848
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: it's possible maybe he decided that he was going to

849
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: do the whole leg first and thought, no, this is

850
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: going to be too hard going through the hip, and

851
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: then he goes down to the knees and cuts through

852
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: the knees, which would be a much easier process to do,

853
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 2: but it looks like he, you know, at the knee level,

854
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: he's going through the joint and he's not like trying

855
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: to saw through the long bones of the legs. And

856
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 2: then the photo below that is also the lower body

857
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 2: as I just described, sitting on its right side next

858
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 2: to the smaller steamer trunk, and so I'm assuming they're

859
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: just trying to show the origin of where this lower

860
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: body was found. And then below below that is the

861
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: next page, and this is just showing Sammy's body parts

862
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 2: being peace together, both you know, her laying on her

863
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: back as well as her laying on her left side.

864
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 2: It appears that her entire body except for the intestines

865
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: and bladder look like they're accounted for. And the lower

866
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: legs are in the photo in the upper left hand

867
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: corner of this page, and it's just showing the wounds

868
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: where the offender cut through the knees, you know, and

869
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 2: it's pretty obvious looking at some of the fat layers,

870
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 2: subcutaneous fat layers. There's no hemorrhaging during this incision. So

871
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 2: she's dead at the point that her lower legs are

872
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: and removed.

873
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: What does all of this say to you about the

874
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: killer who were now going to try to figure out

875
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: the identity of Is this somebody who's strong, physically strong

876
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: to be able to do all this? No?

877
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: You know, this in terms of the dismemberment process, again,

878
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: is really for convenience of transport. It's a lot easier

879
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: to train support smaller body parts than a whole body.

880
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 2: And in this case, the offender chose to use steamer

881
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: trunks and suitcases, you know, in order to fit the

882
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: body parts in. So he just had to get Sammy's

883
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: body small enough to fit within the items that he

884
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: had available for transport. The first victim is not cut

885
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: up because he had a larger steamer trunk. He probably

886
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: would not have dismembered Sammy if he had another large

887
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: steamer trunk, but he didn't. That's that's what that tells me. Now,

888
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 2: the offender, of course had to move these steamer trunks

889
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: and Sammy. You know, I'm guessing she's I mean, she

890
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 2: is not overweight. Of course we don't have photos, but

891
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: she's in the large steamer trunks. So you have a

892
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: whole body in there. So I'm going to say, let's

893
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 2: say another one hundred and twenty pounds. So now the

894
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 2: offender has about two hundred and forty pounds worth of

895
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: of body between the two bodies to move around. He

896
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,479
Speaker 2: could do that singularly, or maybe he has some help

897
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 2: moving these these steamer trunks in the suitcase. I would

898
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 2: say he doesn't need help. He just has to, you know,

899
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: travel with the suitcases to get it to the train

900
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 2: and get them on the train. The suitcases probably aren't

901
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: anything unusual in terms of their their weight relative to

902
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: other steamer trunks you know that are that are being

903
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: put on there that may have other you know a

904
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 2: lot of paper in them or something like that. You know.

905
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: The dismemberment does not indicate anything about the offender, you know,

906
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 2: his his physical characteristics. You could have a very you

907
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 2: could have a woman doing this. This is you know,

908
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 2: there's nothing that I can discern from that. The way

909
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: that these bodies are dismembered, as we have talked about

910
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: on numerous occasions, you know, it doesn't necessarily indicate that

911
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: the the offender had any medical training. The only thing

912
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 2: gives me pause is the fact that there is a

913
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: surgeon's bag, if you will. But anybody could potentially possess

914
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: something like that, you know right now, you know, it's

915
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 2: it's wide open. It's it's just the offender. You know that.

916
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 2: The puzzling aspect is why is the offender killing these

917
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: two women and then transporting them on a train out

918
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 2: to LA and they have a woman and a college

919
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 2: age kid coming to claim the steamer trucks. I mean,

920
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 2: there's a clue somewhere in there.

921
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about Anne and Sammy and how they

922
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: knew each other, and that'll probably be helpful. They were

923
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: good friends. They met in Alaska and was a nurse

924
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: and Sammy was a teacher. In nineteen thirty one, they

925
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 1: both moved to Phoenix and rented a cozy little duplex

926
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: on North Second Street just on the outskirts of town.

927
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 1: Anne was divorced twice. She was also not just a nurse,

928
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: but an X ray technician at a local clinic. Now

929
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about nineteen thirties. Sammy was what

930
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: is called a lunger. And I've heard this phrase before.

931
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: This is someone who had tuberculosis who came to Phoenix

932
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 1: in hopes that the Arizona heat, the dry heat, would

933
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,879
Speaker 1: help with the illness. So she came there to get better.

934
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 1: She had tuberculosis. Sometime in the evening of when these

935
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: trunks were discovered. While detectives in la are collecting evidence

936
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: at the train and of course the autopsy has gone on,

937
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: policemen in Phoenix investigate this duplex, which they would call,

938
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: disgustingly in the press, the murder cottage. In the bedroom,

939
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: there are two rings of blood near the door, so

940
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: there's one bedroom. An's bed is on the north wall

941
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: of the room. Sammy's bed is on the south wall

942
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: of the room. Detectives fine blood splattered under Anne's bed,

943
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: dotting the floor and splashed onto the baseboards, but the

944
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: walls are clean. There is no blood on or around

945
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: Sammy's bed. Both mattresses are missing, And the one photo

946
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: I have that would be helpful is of the whole

947
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: way with very deep scratch marks of where it sounds

948
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: like the trunk were being dragged across. So presumably somebody

949
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: who has access to this apartment. Let me just say

950
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: one more thing about this area. There was a corner

951
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 1: of a bedroom rug that had been crudely hacked with

952
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: a pair of surgical scissors, they say they. You know,

953
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: of course, compare this chunk of rug to the one

954
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 1: in the trunk that they found, and it matches. They

955
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: find a bloody thumb print on the window shade. Looks

956
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 1: like someone left while pulling down the shade. This fingerprint

957
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: Phoenix Police fingerprint. Three ginger Ale bottles which had been

958
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: found next to a partially consumed bottle of whiskey in

959
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: an ice box refrigerator. It is unsecure this whole crime scene.

960
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: Reporters are milling around, I mean, not chalking for this

961
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: time period. The next day, the landlord begins selling tours

962
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: of the apartment for ten cents ahead. So what do

963
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: you think the ginger ale I thought was interesting?

964
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 2: You know, well, the most interesting thing, of course is

965
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 2: the bloody thumb print. You know, if that if that

966
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,439
Speaker 2: actually is blood from one of the victims, then that's

967
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 2: going to be, you know, very critical in terms of

968
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: identifying who the offender is. Now, the ginger Ale bottles,

969
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 2: the bottle of whiskey that has found are Sammy and

970
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 2: and entertaining somebody? Did they have somebody over and then

971
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: something goes sideways and now they're killed? Do you have

972
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 2: potentially offender prints on the ginger Ale bottles? Uh? Of

973
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 2: course would today would be looking for DNA as well

974
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 2: as the whiskey bottle. Did either Sammy or a drink whisky?

975
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 2: You know? I know you don't you know?

976
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: And yet you're still friends with me, thank.

977
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 2: You, even though you know. The photos of Sammy at

978
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 2: autopsy are showing her unclothed initially when her body was found,

979
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 2: as well as Ann's bodies found. It indicates at least

980
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 2: they had pink pajamas on. At least with Sammy, the

981
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 2: lower part of her body had the pink pajamas on.

982
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 2: Is that indicative that there isn't a sexual aspect to

983
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 2: the case. Maybe, you know, I wouldn't necessarily draw a

984
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 2: firm conclusion, but they had gotten ready for bed and

985
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: the fact that two mattresses are gone out of this apartment.

986
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: Suggests to me that each victim was killed in their

987
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,479
Speaker 2: own bed, and the offender is seeing blood on each

988
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 2: mattress and that's why those mattresses are gone, and that

989
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 2: how does the offender get those mattresses out of this

990
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: condo complex? Are those just found in the dumpster to

991
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 2: the complex or does the offender have a vehicle there?

992
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: And that's something that he takes to, you know, the

993
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 2: landfill or whatever, you know, some restaurant dumpster. But he's

994
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 2: also cleaning up the crime scene and in essence, taking

995
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: the victims' bodies and the smaller items from the crime scene,

996
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 2: packaging them up and shipping them out to LA. It's

997
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 2: so bizarre, it is.

998
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: I'll tell you a little bit of evidence that Phoenix police,

999
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: as they're searching for physical evidence, there is a vaked

1000
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: a lot miles from the North second Street to duplex.

1001
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: They find one of the missing mattresses. It's clean clean, Oh,

1002
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: nothing on that mattress. At the duplex, they find blood

1003
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: stains in the bathroom. So everything had been in the

1004
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: bedroom until now. Blood stains in the bathroom and a

1005
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 1: mop handle in the garbage and they think that the

1006
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: mop had been burned after Sammy's body had been dismembered

1007
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: in the bathtub, So that's what they think happened, and

1008
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: I had wondered about that too. Also, before you react

1009
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: to that, I want to ask you about the timeline.

1010
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: The train that was going from Phoenix to LA was

1011
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: a eight o'clock train eight ten that night. So it's

1012
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: October and it's probably it could be still light outside

1013
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: a little bit dusky. I don't know how long it

1014
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: would take to do all of this. You know, the

1015
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: mattresses being deposited. Place is the dismemberment. Does it make

1016
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: sense that this might have happened the night before the

1017
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: train happened.

1018
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 2: I would say the homicides occurred the night before. You know,

1019
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 2: who knows when the dismemberment happened. You know, this is

1020
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 2: where now the offender has killed these two women. And

1021
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 2: right now I'm just going to use the term offender

1022
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 2: very generically. I can't say it's one offender or more

1023
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 2: than one offender. But you have a single gun that's

1024
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 2: been used. Right, they are killed sometime, you know, that

1025
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 2: night time before, whether it be the day before or

1026
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 2: it's after midnight, and it's the same day, but the

1027
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 2: offender is now he's calculating, how do I get away

1028
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: with this? And does he leave and come back? You know?

1029
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 2: Are these steamer trunks something that belonged to these women?

1030
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: You know? And so he's utilizing what's present at the

1031
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: crime scene or does he bring something from his own

1032
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 2: residence in order to get get rid of the victim's

1033
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 2: body and the other items of evidence. So that's a

1034
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 2: very significant aspect to this case. Who do these steamer trunks,

1035
00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 2: this tan suitcase, the hat case belonged to But the

1036
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 2: clean mattress is found in a vacant lot a distance away.

1037
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 2: The offender has access to a vehicle. Now, why is

1038
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: this mattress even being removed from the condo. It's not

1039
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 2: to get rid of blood evidence. That mattress is being

1040
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 2: used for another purpose. That mattress may have been used

1041
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 2: to cover up things inside the offender's vehicle, could have

1042
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 2: been used to kind of stuff. Let's say he's got

1043
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: the back of a pickup truck and now he's putting this,

1044
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 2: you know, the various objects on top of a mattress,

1045
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: you know, and creating a sandwich to hide things. There's

1046
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 2: so many possibilities, but there's no reason for the offender

1047
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 2: to have removed a clean mattress from the condo. And

1048
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 2: I always say, anytime the offender does something that is

1049
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 2: not necessary to commit the crime, why is the offender

1050
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 2: doing that? So that's a pretty significant thing right there.

1051
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 2: He's taking time to burn the mop that he's using

1052
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 2: to mop up evidence. They must see some evidence that

1053
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 2: Sammy had been dismembered in the bathtub, and that's pretty typical,

1054
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 2: you know, that's where a lot of dismemberments occur. So, yeah,

1055
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 2: he's spending some time after the fact in terms of

1056
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: packaging the victims' bodies, getting the you know, the steamer trunks, suitcase,

1057
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,959
Speaker 2: the hat box, and then he gets them loaded into

1058
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 2: a vehicle. He cleans up the crime scene, and he

1059
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: gets things transported out to the train. And he's also

1060
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 2: now at least with the one mattress, he's taking the

1061
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 2: time to dispose of it. And we can't say he

1062
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 2: disposed of that before after he gets the victims up

1063
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 2: into the train. You know, don't know at this point

1064
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 2: what the sequence is, so but he's spending a fair

1065
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 2: amount of time trying to cover his tracks. And again

1066
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: I'm using the term he just generically. I'm not drawing

1067
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 2: a conclusion as to the gender of the killer just yet.

1068
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: Well that was quite smart of you, Paul. As Burton

1069
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: and his female friend are both persons of interest. They

1070
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: identify the woman. This is not his girlfriend or older friend.

1071
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 1: This is his sister. She's twenty six and her name

1072
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: is Winnie Ruth McKinnel Judd and anyone who's into historical

1073
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: true crime, like myself, knows this name. She actually becomes

1074
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: known as the Trunk murderess. She is their recent ex roommate.

1075
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 1: She has a story to tell. Now hold on, because

1076
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: this is said, We've got a part two to just

1077
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 1: simmer now, Pepper, We've got part two coming up here.

1078
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: All right, I'll restrain myself.

1079
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: She and Burton are in the wind. The police are

1080
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: trying to find them. They find out that she once

1081
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: lived with these two women. She has a very complicated story.

1082
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: She will be tracked down, and her explanation for all

1083
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: of this is something that I think you'll find very interesting.

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01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I'm on pins and needles.

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01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: Kate, good, I'll let's see you next week.

1086
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good, Thank you.

1087
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly Right production for our sources

1088
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1089
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

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01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1095
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1096
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1097
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1098
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1099
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1100
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1101
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

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01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1103
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcast