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Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

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Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV

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Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: We are your hosts. I'm Rosha Pecarero.

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Speaker 4: And I am event Gentiele and I cannot tell you,

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Speaker 4: guys how excited I am for this episode. We have

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Speaker 4: someone that we love and adore. She is our Ohanna.

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Speaker 4: She is a film maker extraordinaire. She is, like I

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Speaker 4: like to say, the one and only, Patty Badass Jenkins.

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Speaker 5: I'm so excited to be here with you guys, so

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Speaker 5: excited about the show and miss and love you guys.

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Speaker 5: So I'm so happy to get to be on here.

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Speaker 4: We miss you too, Patty.

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Speaker 2: So for those of you who have been living under

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Speaker 2: a rock and may not know the amazing Patty Jenkins,

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Speaker 2: let me just tell you a little bit about our

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Speaker 2: beautiful guest. So Patty is an award winning filmmaker, producer, writer,

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Speaker 2: and director, and of course, she burst onto the Hollywood

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Speaker 2: scene after graduating from the AFI Conservatory with two thousand

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Speaker 2: and threes Monster, and It starred the phenomenal Charlie Starren

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Speaker 2: as serial killer Eileen Wornos, and that movie we're going

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Speaker 2: to dive more into today, of course, since we have

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Speaker 2: Patty here. But after Monster, Patty quickly became one of

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Speaker 2: the most prolific and sought after directors in all of Hollywood,

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Speaker 2: and of course a couple of our favorites that she's directed,

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Speaker 2: the Wonder Woman films, of course, and our absolute favorite,

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Speaker 2: Patty directed the limited series for T and T based

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Speaker 2: on our Mama, Fauna Hodel.

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Speaker 3: I Am the Night.

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Speaker 2: And we are here today to talk with Patty about

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Speaker 2: all the things, but we'd especially love to dive into

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Speaker 2: talking to Patty about her journey with Eileen Warnos and

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Speaker 2: her journey with our beautiful mother, Fauna Hodel.

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Speaker 3: So Mahalanuiloa. Patti, thank you so much for being here

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Speaker 3: with us today.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me, and it's so great to

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Speaker 5: see you guys. So you are happy to be here.

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Speaker 3: You two, You're so beautiful.

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Speaker 5: Oh, thank you so were you too.

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Speaker 4: We should say real quick that we did a deep

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Speaker 4: dive into Eileen Warnos's case the last episode. We're probably

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Speaker 4: going to refer to a lot of those details today,

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Speaker 4: so if you haven't yet, please go back and listen

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Speaker 4: to that episode. But first, Patty, I have to say

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Speaker 4: to you happy belated birthday. First of all, thank you,

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Speaker 4: my fellow meal lion is.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: What have you been up to lately?

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Speaker 3: What are you allowed to talk about now?

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Speaker 5: I wanted to say is that I'm is that I'm

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Speaker 5: writing hardcore on multiple stages. I'm currently working on Wonder

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Speaker 5: Woman three and working on Rogue Squadron, which would go

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Speaker 5: potentially afterwards, and so it's all just like hardcore development.

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Speaker 5: But anytime you're writing something like Wonder Woman three, you're

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Speaker 5: also kind of doing pre production at the same time,

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Speaker 5: because you know, the second you hand these things in,

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Speaker 5: it's like a house is on fire. So you're picking

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Speaker 5: I'm picking locations and all of the you know, like

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Speaker 5: you're doing all of that kind of stuff at the

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Speaker 5: same time. So a bunch of TV things, Charlie's and

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Speaker 5: I have a TV project, a limited series, and a

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Speaker 5: couple couple different things coming up.

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Speaker 3: That's so exciting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you are a busy woman, as we need.

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Speaker 5: It's getting busy again. But it's interesting after the pandemic,

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Speaker 5: I actually am craving it. Oh and that's the other

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Speaker 5: thing I just finished or I'm still doing it, but

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Speaker 5: producing Chris Pine's movie pool Man. Yeah. So we went

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Speaker 5: on set all summer with Chris directing for the first time.

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Speaker 5: He's doing his director's cut editing right now. But that

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Speaker 5: took it. That was a ton of what we did

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Speaker 5: this summer was Chris direct right, which was super fun

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Speaker 5: and he did a great job. I can't wait for

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Speaker 5: people to see it. That's awesome.

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Speaker 4: And Ian like his best friend, right, is one of

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Speaker 4: his visitors.

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Speaker 5: Right, they wrote it together. It's an amazing script. I

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Speaker 5: was shocked and blown away when I read it, because

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Speaker 5: even though I know how smart they are, I was like,

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Speaker 5: I couldn't believe that they up and wrote something so

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Speaker 5: incredibly good on their first script, like amazing. So it's

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Speaker 5: I can't wait for people to see it pool Man.

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Speaker 3: We can't wait to see it.

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Speaker 2: And that's the whole reason Chris has his beautiful long

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Speaker 2: hair right now.

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Speaker 5: Right, that's true.

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Speaker 2: Another member of our Ohana, beautiful soul inside and out, Crispine.

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Speaker 4: Totally alrighty, So before we talk about Eileen, I think

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Speaker 4: we should tell everybody how you came into our lives.

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Speaker 4: You know, Russia and I both like to say that

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Speaker 4: you were our mother's wonder woman, Patty. You were the

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Speaker 4: one who finally brought her life dream to your fruition.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell our listeners like how you met our

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Speaker 4: mom and how I am the night came about?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, God, thank you for that. She was such a

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Speaker 5: wonderful part of my life too. So it's so crazy

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Speaker 5: that that she's gone, Like I just can't kind of

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Speaker 5: believe it. It's so shocking. So your mother came into

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Speaker 5: my life when a neighbor of mine met her at

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Speaker 5: a party and said, you've got to meet this woman

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Speaker 5: and hear her story. And so you hear that a

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Speaker 5: lot in Hollywood, and you know, and I just have

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Speaker 5: into Asa had just been born, I think, so I

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Speaker 5: was like I had enough downtime that I was like, okay, cool,

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Speaker 5: you know, we'll have a coffee. However, when I sat

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Speaker 5: down across from your mother, as the story and I

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Speaker 5: won't even tell it because everybody probably knows it but

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Speaker 5: as she started to tell the story, I was stunned.

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Speaker 5: I like just couldn't believe what I was hearing. It

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Speaker 5: was the most incredible story. But also I immediately clicked

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Speaker 5: with your mother and her warmth and everything about her,

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Speaker 5: and so I can't remember what our first steps were

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Speaker 5: at that moment. I couldn't quite make it into anything,

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Speaker 5: and I was afraid of like how dark it was.

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Speaker 5: I was like, ooh, George Hodell is such dark energy.

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Speaker 5: I don't even know if I want to bring this

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Speaker 5: to it into my life, you know. And I knew

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Speaker 5: that it needed to be a limited series, and so

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Speaker 5: I think we sort of talked about it and came

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Speaker 5: around a couple of times, but the truth was that

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Speaker 5: I didn't have time to do a limited series most

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Speaker 5: of the time, and it was such a big pride.

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Speaker 5: But then I think as the years went by, people

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Speaker 5: continued to be so interested in the story. Your mother

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Speaker 5: and I always stayed in touch about it, and I

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Speaker 5: was worried as she was, of somebody doing it wrong, yeah,

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Speaker 5: not quite getting it or turning it into the wrong thing.

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Speaker 5: I just remember this moment came where someone else was

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Speaker 5: really about to option it, and I was making Wonder

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Speaker 5: Woman one and I said, I think that's a good idea.

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Speaker 5: I'll help you do it. Here's how you have to

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Speaker 5: protect yourself. Here's all these ways you need to protect yourself.

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Speaker 5: I'm not available right now anyway. And she said to me,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to do it that way. I want

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Speaker 5: to do it with you. And I said, I know,

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Speaker 5: I want to do it too, but I'm going to

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Speaker 5: be busy right now. And then I went to set

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Speaker 5: the next day and start was telling Chris the story

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Speaker 5: and Chris was.

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Speaker 3: Like, what you have.

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Speaker 5: To do that. I was like, I know, but when

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Speaker 5: could I do I don't know. And I had talked

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Speaker 5: to Sam, my husband, Sam Sheridan about writing it before,

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Speaker 5: and he could never quite find the way in because

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Speaker 5: at the point of view of the story, he didn't

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Speaker 5: feel was his to tell, right. But as soon as

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Speaker 5: we were kind of talking about it, Chris and I

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Speaker 5: started talking about it, suddenly it kind of clicked that

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Speaker 5: there were all of these men in the story that

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Speaker 5: needed to be represented somehow, and that was something that

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Speaker 5: Chris could play. And then it kind of gave it

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Speaker 5: a classic detective angle, which opened up the right path

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Speaker 5: for Sam to feel like Okay, I feel like that's

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Speaker 5: a voice I can do, and we can get the

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Speaker 5: right people to bring in all of the various voices

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Speaker 5: that we want to represent in the story. And so

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Speaker 5: then the more we talked about it, the more we

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Speaker 5: loved it. And then as soon as Wonder Woman came out,

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Speaker 5: they really wanted Wonder Woman. I was eighty four, and

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Speaker 5: so I super didn't have time. I loved everything about

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Speaker 5: it so much that I was like, we have to

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Speaker 5: squeeze it in. So we squeezed in, and I only

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Speaker 5: got to direct the first two episodes, of course, but

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Speaker 5: particularly with your mother shockingly passing away right beforehand, which

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Speaker 5: I still can only I don't understand why that could

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Speaker 5: happen after all those years. I'm so happy she knew

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Speaker 5: that we were the one was doing it and that

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Speaker 5: it was in safe hands. But yeah, what a shock

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Speaker 5: and second time that's happened to me now, because the

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Speaker 5: same thing happened on Monst.

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Speaker 3: Now we're going to talk about that.

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Speaker 5: To have a guiding spirit who has just passed away

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Speaker 5: as I'm about to start shooting twice and both times

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Speaker 5: very significant, and your mother being incredibly significant, and I

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Speaker 5: could feel her with us throughout the course of making

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Speaker 5: the show, but was not something we ever expected, you know,

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Speaker 5: And then we've gone on to all go through an

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Speaker 5: incredible journey together in many ways, you know, making the show,

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Speaker 5: we were always all kind of had a more familial

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Speaker 5: Ohana vibe than would normally on something, and so it

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Speaker 5: was an incredibly special thing.

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Speaker 2: But that's why we're here now, right, It's all full

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Speaker 2: circle because we were given this amazing gift that you

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Speaker 2: and Sam and Mom and Chris gave to us.

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Speaker 3: And so yes, we're continuing to tell.

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Speaker 2: Mom's story, which we're going to tell her story for

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Speaker 2: the rest of our lives and everything in anything that

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Speaker 2: we do, but now we get to tell other stories

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Speaker 2: and tell the world the stories that people may not

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Speaker 2: want to hear. Like from day one, I knew when

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Speaker 2: we were doing Facing Evil because we were in this

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Speaker 2: true crime world now and we have to find that

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Speaker 2: light in the darkness, right Yeah. And I knew we

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Speaker 2: had to do Eileen's story because I've always seen her

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Speaker 2: as a victim herself, and you know, I know we'll

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Speaker 2: get more into it, but I would love to start

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Speaker 2: at the beginning for about Eileen and talk to you

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Speaker 2: about that Patty, Like, when did you first learn about

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Speaker 2: the story of Eileen Wrenos and this serial killer?

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Speaker 5: So I knew about it all along because I've always

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Speaker 5: been a true crime buff and when I was a kid,

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Speaker 5: I hugely I had all the like I've still got

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Speaker 5: it on my shelf somewhere here, the murderers, Who's Who.

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Speaker 5: Thank God for the fact that true crime has become

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Speaker 5: what it is now. Rut for years was like the

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Speaker 5: weirdo reading true crime. But it's interesting because now I

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Speaker 5: think that so many people are into true crime. People

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Speaker 5: understand it a lot more, which is I was never dark.

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Speaker 3: No, You're not a dark person.

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Speaker 5: It's much more about having had tragic things happen to myself.

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Speaker 5: It opens the door. And I lived in Thailand when

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Speaker 5: I was little during the Vietnam War. I think once

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Speaker 5: you've seen behind the curtain of what's possible in the world,

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Speaker 5: you become incredibly curious about the understanding that all people

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Speaker 5: are the same. So every time you hear about people

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Speaker 5: doing these incredibly dark or awful things, I became incredibly

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Speaker 5: curious about what was making that person do those things.

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Speaker 5: And so that's why I obsessively read it. Is because

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Speaker 5: I know that somewhere inside of me, the same part

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Speaker 5: of me that wants to be a filmmaker is curious

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Speaker 5: about why people do the things they do and what

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Speaker 5: lives are like. And so I know that if I

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Speaker 5: just meditate on it enough and kind of feel it,

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Speaker 5: I could actually get myself into a place where I

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Speaker 5: could do the same thing. And so that I'm endlessly

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Speaker 5: curious about. So I actually was on a road trip

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Speaker 5: in Florida in nineteen eighty nine, and one thing that

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Speaker 5: nobody ever talks about with her story is a friend

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Speaker 5: and I were on the most dangerous road trip of

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Speaker 5: all time in retrospective, like we were like seven, sixteen,

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Speaker 5: seventeen years old in a car that broke down every

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Speaker 5: day on I ninety five leaving camp grounds. I'm like,

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Speaker 5: I don't know how we survived that trip at all,

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Speaker 5: Like just pure, we were sort of naive, and we

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Speaker 5: were sort of just thought we were a lot tougher

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Speaker 5: than we were. Oh no, I thought we were very

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Speaker 5: street wise. But the thing that a lot of people

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Speaker 5: don't remember is there was a male serial killer at

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Speaker 5: that time killing female prostitutes all through Florida, and that

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Speaker 5: was the context that these crimes started in and so

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Speaker 5: for some reason that doesn't figure in to her story.

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Speaker 5: It should. It should because she was turning tricks exactly

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Speaker 5: where this guy was leaving dead bodies. So of course

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Speaker 5: she was heightened certainly in what in the context of

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Speaker 5: the world she was working in. And so I was

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Speaker 5: afraid of the male serial killer as we were driving

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Speaker 5: around and aware of that. And then she got caught

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Speaker 5: the next year, and I remember watching on the news

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Speaker 5: and thinking about the fact that we were driving those

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Speaker 5: very same roads. And really it was when her story

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Speaker 5: was on the news, and it was the moment in

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Speaker 5: the courtroom where Tyra Moore you had to give testimony

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Speaker 5: and I lean nodded at her and forgave her for

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Speaker 5: it with tears in her eyes, and I remember going,

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Speaker 5: WHOA wow. It was like the end of a tragic opera,

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Speaker 5: this love story between these two people. And then immediately

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Speaker 5: the way she was talked about by everyone was so

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Speaker 5: incorrect to me. They were like, well, she's a man

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Speaker 5: hating lesbian. She loved it. She had thirst. I was like,

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Speaker 5: and you remember her eyes? Like her eyes? I was like,

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Speaker 5: does anybody know what a feral, abused creature looks like? Like?

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Speaker 5: Have you been to a dog pound. This is not

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Speaker 5: someone who loves anything about this like this is this

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Speaker 5: is a feral creature backed into a corner. But she

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Speaker 5: loved her clearly, clearly. So I just remember being so

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Speaker 5: struck by their love story, the tragedy of the ending,

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Speaker 5: the fact that Eileen was looking at her and saying,

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Speaker 5: I know, you have to do what you have to do,

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Speaker 5: And then the way people were talking about her, and

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Speaker 5: even the documentaries and things that were made about her,

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Speaker 5: I felt like they were lacking a deeper dive. It

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Speaker 5: was more about the phenomenon of who she was a

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Speaker 5: fame and the story, rather than saying like, it's an

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Speaker 5: absolute miracle this woman's alive at all. She had been

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Speaker 5: in the hospital many times for rape, for abuse, for

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Speaker 5: all of these things, and had carried a gun for

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Speaker 5: twenty years and had never used it on anyone but herself,

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Speaker 5: you know. I mean she'd used it. The whole thing's up,

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Speaker 5: but she'd only shot herself and trying to kill herself.

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Speaker 5: And so I continued to be bugged for all the

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Speaker 5: years between when the story broke and when I ended

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Speaker 5: up making the movie, and so how the whole thing

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Speaker 5: ended up starting was simply me meeting Brad Wyman and

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Speaker 5: him saying he was making these serial killer movies and

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Speaker 5: me saying to him, you should make a movie. But

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Speaker 5: Eileen Wantas, that's a very misunderstood story and no one

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Speaker 5: ever really has told it, and he said, you should

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Speaker 5: make it. You won't get anything else. And so literally

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Speaker 5: that's how it started. But it was one of those stories,

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Speaker 5: and I have a few of them. There are a

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Speaker 5: few of those stories out there that still bug me

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Speaker 5: endlessly because I feel like they're so misunderstood and I

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Speaker 5: would love to do, you know, do them at one

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Speaker 5: point for that reason, like your mother's in a way

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Speaker 5: where you're sort of like you're missing you're missing the

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Speaker 5: real human story beneath the story. If you only talk

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Speaker 5: about George Hodell or you only talk about the black

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Speaker 5: value of like, it's way more than that. And so

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Speaker 5: that was literally what was the genesis of Monster. And

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Speaker 5: then based on him saying you should do it, he

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Speaker 5: introduced me to other people who ended up not being

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Speaker 5: the right people to make the film with. But I

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Speaker 5: simultaneously wrote to Eileen Warnus and she started writing me back,

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Speaker 5: and it was not super cozy at first, you know,

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Speaker 5: she was Eileen, she was who she was, didn't trust me,

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Speaker 5: didn't understand who I was, what I was trying to do.

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Speaker 5: But as I began to work on the story, and

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Speaker 5: I could tell that the people who were making these

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Speaker 5: were making very you know, just very quick sallacious things.

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Speaker 5: So I was okay with if it was. If this

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Speaker 5: was I was desperate to get my career started. If

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Speaker 5: this was a fictional story, I would have done, but

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Speaker 5: I would have done a slasher movie or a horror movie.

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Speaker 5: But the more I got involved with this, the more

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Speaker 5: I fell in love with the depth of the story

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Speaker 5: and also said, I'm not doing this about real people

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Speaker 5: this way, like I can't put my name on something.

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Speaker 5: And granted I still still there are a lot of

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Speaker 5: people like all of the victims, families and things who

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Speaker 5: of course it's probably unpleasant for them to have a

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Speaker 5: movie made. I worked very hard to try to protect

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Speaker 5: them by making it unclear who was who. Yeah, And

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Speaker 5: I did a lot of work to do that because

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Speaker 5: I said, I have compassion for these people and it's

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Speaker 5: not their fault, and they are the family victims. This

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Speaker 5: is a story about what happens to another person that

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Speaker 5: makes them into that person, So I tried very hard

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Speaker 5: to leave them out of it. It was beautiful, but

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Speaker 5: you know, but yes, I definitely was like, but I'm

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Speaker 5: not going to do it if I don't think what

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Speaker 5: I'm saying is the truth and I'm not being caring

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Speaker 5: about it. And so so I ended up writing it

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Speaker 5: for no one, saying, you want to know what I

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Speaker 5: think happens like and I'm jumping a lot of steps.

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Speaker 5: I'm jumping all the talking Kailin and all those things.

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Speaker 5: But you can ask me any of those questions.

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Speaker 2: You didn't say any of that in the making of Months.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you did a little bit, but the

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Speaker 3: heart of that came through your compassion.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the balance of that because you think about the families,

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Speaker 4: you know, you think about the generational trauma. Right. But

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Speaker 4: the way that you told the story was so brilliant

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Speaker 4: that you know, you were focused on Eileen and you

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Speaker 4: were focused on really a love story because it seemed

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Speaker 4: like for the first time Eileen was being seen by Ira, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: I that was so powerful to me. But I do

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Speaker 4: have this question for you. Yeah, so this was your

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Speaker 4: first feature, you know, debut, which was a huge success.

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Speaker 4: The question is, like, when you think about your first

355
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Speaker 4: love years later, there are lessons that you learn, like

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Speaker 4: you would never do this again, or you love this?

357
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Speaker 4: What did this movie like teach you? Like in today's time,

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Speaker 4: like while you're doing you know, Wonder Woman and Star

359
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Speaker 4: Wars and all these other movies. What lesson did you

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Speaker 4: learn back then that you take with you always.

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Speaker 5: Something absolutely huge that has been definitive to my career

362
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Speaker 5: is because of the series of events that led to

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Speaker 5: me writing Monster and making Monster. It was two things.

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Speaker 5: First of all, it was the first time I was

365
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Speaker 5: ever totally honest as an artist about what I would say,

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Speaker 5: Whereas if I really thought it was going to get made,

367
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Speaker 5: or if I was being more calculating, I would have

368
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Speaker 5: come up with something more commercial. In a variety of ways,

369
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Speaker 5: this was was me revealing a dark side of myself,

370
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Speaker 5: which is I can imagine being her and doing these things,

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Speaker 5: and I can imagine do it. That is inside of me,

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Speaker 5: you know, like if I were in her circumstances, I

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Speaker 5: can imagine it. And so it was me knowing that

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Speaker 5: I was on my own completely. I didn't know one

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Speaker 5: other person who saw her story and felt the same

376
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Speaker 5: way I did. It's interesting to talk about this, because

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Speaker 5: I remember Charlie and I having these conversations constantly because

378
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Speaker 5: she understood it completely too, and she would say, what

379
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Speaker 5: are people? And I was like, I don't know. We

380
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Speaker 5: can't do that. We just have to be her.

381
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Speaker 4: We just have to be her.

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Speaker 5: We can't because normally you're trying to to be a

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Speaker 5: good guy or a bad guy or this thing or

384
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Speaker 5: that thing, and we didn't have that here. We were

385
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 5: playing a very electrically dimensional person who we felt all

386
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Speaker 5: things for. So first of all, it taught me that

387
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,919
Speaker 5: the moment I was the most honest was when I

388
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 5: succeeded the most was huge because I was like, whoa,

389
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Speaker 5: that side of me is of value, Like the actual,

390
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 5: deep down inside of me is of value. My understanding

391
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Speaker 5: of the world is of value more so than the

392
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Speaker 5: calculating side, which is just like everybody else.

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Speaker 4: You know.

394
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Speaker 5: That's number one. But number two was I really really

395
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Speaker 5: believed in her in telling her story, because it was

396
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Speaker 5: interesting how challenged I was at moments after I made

397
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Speaker 5: it by people saying, how could you tell a story

398
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Speaker 5: about a woman like this? And I was like, first

399
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Speaker 5: of all, We've been telling stories about.

400
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Speaker 4: Men like this forever, Like what are you talking about?

401
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 5: Like, think of every mob movie gangster, you'd be like,

402
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 5: what are you talking about? Your shocked that I'm telling

403
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 5: a story about it someone who does bad things, who's

404
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 5: a charismatic character, Like that's so so bizarre. But even

405
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 5: when it comes to women, Lady Macbeth, like, what do

406
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 5: you think storytelling is looking at people who are capable

407
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 5: of doing these things? But the bigger question is I

408
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 5: ran with the pretty wild crowd in my youth, and

409
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,360
Speaker 5: many of those people ended up doing some things, terrible

410
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 5: things and going to prison. And so I've always had

411
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 5: incredible compassion for oh my god, my sweet friend who

412
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,679
Speaker 5: we didn't realize how how rough of a life they

413
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Speaker 5: were having really ended up doing something really extreme and

414
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Speaker 5: going to prison, and growing up and watching that because

415
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Speaker 5: I was in the punk scene, and the punk scene

416
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 5: really did have a lot of riff raff from all

417
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Speaker 5: over and you didn't quite understand the differences between people

418
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Speaker 5: because you were all just in the hardcore scene. But

419
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 5: it did attract some really lost people who went on

420
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Speaker 5: to have really rough lives. So anyway for me to process,

421
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 5: I've known good people who turn into bad people, and

422
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 5: in her case, the path was so bad, Like you

423
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Speaker 5: couldn't believe how bad it was. That telling people who

424
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Speaker 5: might not understand how a good person can be turned

425
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Speaker 5: into a bad person, and then saying to them like, listen,

426
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Speaker 5: I'm not the first person to do this. Like when

427
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 5: somebody did ask me that how could you how dare

428
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Speaker 5: you tell a story about a woman like this, I

429
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Speaker 5: was like, you and I have nothing to talk about,

430
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Speaker 5: because if you believe that people are born this way,

431
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Speaker 5: then I don't know how you explain every young man

432
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 5: and woman that goes to war and turns into a killer.

433
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Speaker 5: But there's millions and billions of them, so I'm not

434
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 5: sure how you deal with that. But were no help

435
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 5: to the mental health crisis that those people face when

436
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 5: they come home if you leave them on their own.

437
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 5: And so I just think the lesson was it was

438
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 5: more than a movie. Yeah, it was something that I

439
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,959
Speaker 5: believed in, and I didn't have any of the things,

440
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 5: in great part because Charlie's is an amazing person and

441
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 5: a dear friend of mine. But really we were not

442
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 5: there about ourselves. Very quickly, we were dealing with such

443
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 5: high stakes of human lives of the woman who had

444
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 5: just been executed. I'll tell you the story more. But

445
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 5: she had left seven thousand letters to me. It was time,

446
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 5: meaning I was the person that she had left this

447
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 5: responsibility to. So it became so much bigger than me

448
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 5: right away, and the last thing I was thinking of

449
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 5: was really me and my career, even though of course

450
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 5: I understood that I wanted to get a movie made

451
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 5: and stuff, but it just became so much bigger and

452
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 5: spiritually grounded in trying to do the right thing that

453
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 5: that has never left me. And so it made looking

454
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 5: at movies because it's so hard to make a movie,

455
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 5: and Monster was so hard to make. And not only

456
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 5: was it so hard, it was so dark. It was

457
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 5: like the darkness that descended upon me that I had

458
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 5: to carry for those ye that year and a half

459
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 5: was very dark because you have to be that person

460
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 5: a little bit, yeah, Like you have to be them,

461
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 5: you have to walk into her shoes, and it's very depressing,

462
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 5: you know. And so it made looking at things that

463
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 5: I got offered afterwards that were superficially silly or even

464
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 5: just for a lot of money, And it made it

465
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 5: very clear to me. I said, I'm not gonna make

466
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 5: movies for money. I'm going to I'll make TV, I'll

467
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 5: try other things, I'll make my own money other ways,

468
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 5: but movies have to be bigger than that. And even

469
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 5: though that led me to not being able to get

470
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 5: my movies made for a little while in things, it

471
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,239
Speaker 5: also is exactly what led me to getting to make

472
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 5: Wonder Woman, which I'd always wanted to make. And I

473
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 5: have a very similar, ironically similar relationship with Wonder Woman

474
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 5: that I do the Monster, which is it is so

475
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 5: much bigger than me. It is a huge responsibility. Its

476
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 5: potential in the world is bigger than all of us

477
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 5: put together. And therefore it's almost like a calling.

478
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 4: You know.

479
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 5: Yes, it's a wonderful thing to put my filmmaking towards,

480
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 5: but it's also so much bigger than that. And so

481
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 5: again I have the fortunate thing of having Gal Goodot,

482
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 5: who's the most amazing partner, who it's not about either

483
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 5: of us. We're not about like our this or hour

484
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 5: that We're both like, we're here for the moment and

485
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 5: this mess it is really a beautiful one, and how

486
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 5: can we serve it best? You know? And so those

487
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 5: are the two lessons that once you know a movie

488
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 5: can be such a profound life experience. It's hard to

489
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 5: forget it and go start doing bullshitty work, you know.

490
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you start up here, why are you going

491
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 3: to go down here?

492
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:18,479
Speaker 2: Like?

493
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know that was amazing.

494
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you're such a universal being, like you

495
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 4: can't just do just anything.

496
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 5: You know, Well, thank you.

497
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 4: You're such a deep rooted spirit, and that's why Mom

498
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 4: loved you, and that's why we love you exactly.

499
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 5: Such a beautiful thing to try for any of us

500
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 5: in our careers to inspect something deeper than the self,

501
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 5: particularly as you get older and grow up, you know,

502
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 5: when you're not fifteen.

503
00:25:47,359 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 4: You know, I'm going to go back a little bit

504
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 4: and I want to talk a little bit about Charlie

505
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: because you know, the first time that I saw a

506
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 4: monster like, I forget who I was with. But I

507
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 4: just said to myself, she's going to win an Academy Award.

508
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 5: And even my husband.

509
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 4: Gina, was like, that's not Charlie. I'm like, GINO, that

510
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 4: is Charlie's.

511
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: She was Aileen.

512
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: She inhabited Eileen to the full extent. When you were

513
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 4: on set, did you see that?

514
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 5: Oh yeah?

515
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 4: And then I have one more question. It's going to

516
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 4: be part two. I love the fact that you film

517
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 4: in places where things have actually happened, so that energy

518
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 4: is so present. Do you do that intentionally to escalate

519
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: you know, the performances?

520
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 5: Definitely, It's one of the big reasons that I shoot

521
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 5: on set. In general. I think that us the way

522
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 5: that human behavior is what made me a filmmaker, my

523
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 5: interest in it the subtlety. So when you think about

524
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 5: literature and film, literature is still considered more sophisticated by many,

525
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 5: but it should not be so. It should not be

526
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 5: so when you think about the fact that we as

527
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 5: animals read so much information with all of our senses,

528
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 5: and so it's really important to use all of those

529
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 5: senses to help to tell the story. And so the

530
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 5: subtleties of what you're seeing in another person are colossal

531
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 5: and so definitely shooting in location brings all of the

532
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 5: realities of like you're standing in a field just the

533
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 5: way Eileen was at this moment, and you can feel

534
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 5: the humidity and the heat and the bugs and the

535
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 5: this and the that, and you're tired, and you know,

536
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 5: every single layer of this is an added dimension of

537
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 5: understanding the person who's shoes you're walking in, And so yeah,

538
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 5: I definitely do all of that on purpose and believe

539
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 5: in it a lot.

540
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, did you think she was getting way again?

541
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 5: I did, I actually, And that's a weird thing to say,

542
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 5: because I was running two realities. On the one hand,

543
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 5: I wrote it, and while I was writing it, I

544
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 5: wrote in don't stop believing. I wrote all of these

545
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 5: improbable things for a loser, struggling nobody to imagine they

546
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 5: could ever get, you know, And so I wrote all

547
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 5: of these things, and on the one hand, I knew

548
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 5: I could never get it. On the other hand, as

549
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 5: soon as people started to want to be in it,

550
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 5: there was something about Charlie's I just felt so sure

551
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 5: she was the one, and I knew that if she

552
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 5: was what I thought she was, and this could be

553
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 5: what I thought it could be, that we could go

554
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 5: the distance. I could just feel that, But I wasn't

555
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 5: thinking about me. It was a way to get the

556
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 5: movie there.

557
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 3: I know, because you should have won an oscar, Patty. Yeah,

558
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 3: let me just say that right now.

559
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 5: Thank you. They were only giving it to big indie

560
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 5: glamour films back then, and not little films, and then,

561
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 5: you know, I never expected that because I was like

562
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 5: your first film give me somewhere to go to. I'm

563
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 5: perfectly happy that I didn't. That would have been a

564
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 5: weird thing. But all I wanted was for her to

565
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 5: get nominated, because I was like, she's our one shots.

566
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 5: But really it was once we started shooting and I

567
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 5: could see how special and deep it was, and it

568
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 5: wasn't about Yes, I knew she was beautiful and people

569
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 5: would be surprised. I wasn't surprised because I knew her

570
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 5: and I knew how deep it was, but I saw

571
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 5: a profound performance happening in front of me, and I

572
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 5: knew how hard it was, so much harder than anybody

573
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 5: can realize, Like it's so hard for someone to do

574
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 5: a performance like that. So I absolutely, as we were shooting,

575
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 5: was watching her and saying she could win the Oscar,

576
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 5: like this is this is it, this is super huge,

577
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 5: and continued to believe it throughout even though nobody else

578
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 5: really did. And so so it was like, you're running

579
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 5: both realities. Everybody's telling me that they're gonna it's gonna

580
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 5: go straight to video, oh gosh, literally right up until

581
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 5: and they sold the video side of it, which meant

582
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 5: nobody would release the movie all the way up until

583
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 5: like literally the movie came out. It was supposed to

584
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 5: go straight the video and not be a contender and

585
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 5: all those things, but I always believed that it could

586
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 5: go this other way.

587
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: I know, and I have to say too, I mean,

588
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: and I know, you know, just watching Charlie's like it

589
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 2: wasn't only her that was up there winning that Oscar.

590
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 3: I read something on.

591
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: Charlie's birthday, which Charlie's and Yvette share the same birthday,

592
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: and they I think this will be really you know,

593
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: funny for our listeners to hear, because I didn't know

594
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: it until August seventh, but I was reading a beautiful

595
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: post from.

596
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: Miss Rona Myers.

597
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, your costume designer extraordinaire, which I think I

598
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: knew that she because you you work with a lot

599
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: of the same amazing people. But Rona helped bring I

600
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: lean to life with Charlie's with the costuming, and then

601
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: of course Tony g for the makeup, and both of

602
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: those amazing women were on I Am the night and

603
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's always like full circle. And that's how

604
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: your friendship with Steve Perry starts, right yep, who is

605
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: also on the set of IM the Night and is

606
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: also an amazing human like miss Patty Jenkins.

607
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 4: He shared some amazing words of wisdom with me on

608
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 4: I Am the Knight that I will never forget. So's

609
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 4: he's a lovely human being.

610
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 5: He's a deeply wise person. He was a real guru

611
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 5: to me back then. Never expected it, but he showed

612
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 5: up on Monster and joined us. He really shepherded me

613
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 5: through some of the loneliest times of making that film,

614
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 5: and is such a deep and profound and thoughtful artist

615
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 5: who's really willing to walk away unless he's going to

616
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 5: do work that he thinks that he really believes in.

617
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 5: And so he's been such a great friend to me

618
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 5: for ever since, for years.

619
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: And years, Patty, you just described yourself.

620
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do you know.

621
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 5: That right to be so lucky lucky.

622
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, like minded people attract like

623
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 4: minded people, you know.

624
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's the greatest.

625
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: My question for you, so you said, which I had

626
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: no idea that it was that many thousands of letters

627
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: that Eileen gave to So I know she was executed

628
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: in October two thousand and two.

629
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: When did you actually start production on Monster?

630
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 5: December January?

631
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's like almost exactly like, Mom.

632
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know right, it was exact. It was so crazy,

633
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 5: so bizarre. We were about to go meet with her

634
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 5: in prison.

635
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 3: Oh so you were going to meet her that way?

636
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

637
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 5: So she and I were writing to each other for

638
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 5: about seven or eight months, I think, or maybe it

639
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 5: was a little longer, but we were writing to each other.

640
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 5: She never totally understood what I was trying to do

641
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,239
Speaker 5: and never totally decided to consciously trust me, because it

642
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 5: was she was in a really bad mental place at

643
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 5: that time. She'd been in prison for twelve years. She

644
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 5: had definitely become schizophrenic and lots of other things. And

645
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 5: the most heartbreaking thing about writing to her was that

646
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 5: she would oscillate back and forth between being totally guilty

647
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 5: like I don't deserve it, I should be executed, or

648
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 5: being totally innocent. And I would write to her. I

649
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 5: would write to her and say, Eileen, I'm trying to

650
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 5: help you understand that they're both true, and I want

651
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 5: to tell a story about how they're both true. You

652
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 5: did make a mistake, mistakes, you went too far, and

653
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 5: also you were a victim who was put into a place.

654
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 5: And yes, I believe Richard Mallory raped her and was

655
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 5: a serial rapist, and the first murder was self defense,

656
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 5: and so they're both true. And that was the challenge,

657
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 5: was to try to tell a story where I didn't

658
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 5: do one or the other. But she was someone with

659
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 5: no access to mental health help at all, was left

660
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 5: in a cage by themselves. Of course, they create a

661
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 5: third reality. So I don't believe that she had schizophrenia

662
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 5: when she went in there, but I believe that she

663
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 5: did have some mental problems. But by twelve years later

664
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 5: she developed a third version of reality, which was that

665
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 5: aliens had made her do it, and all of these

666
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 5: other things. Anyway, in writing to each other, over all

667
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 5: of this time, whatever the core of what I was saying,

668
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 5: hopefully did get through, or I believe that it did,

669
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 5: because I was about to go down with Charlie's and

670
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 5: meet with her, and then her execution was scheduled, and

671
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 5: I said, do you want me to intervene and try

672
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 5: to do you want us to try to do anything?

673
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 5: And she said no, she wanted to be executed. She

674
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 5: wanted out, and I totally respected that, and so we

675
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 5: canceled our meeting, and we said, you should use every

676
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 5: one of your remaining visits to see someone that you

677
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 5: want to see more than us will come if you need.

678
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 5: But and Don Botkins, her best friend from Michigan, was

679
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 5: down there spending a lot of time with her, and

680
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 5: I was in touch with Don, and so I was

681
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 5: myself surprised when we called down. I'll always remember the

682
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 5: day she was executed and how bizarre it was to

683
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 5: be walking around that day and then talking to Don.

684
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 5: And Don said, Eileen has decided to leave view all

685
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 5: of her letters to read. I gave them back to

686
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 5: Dawn when I was done reading them. But the crazy

687
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 5: thing was that exactly what I saw in Eileen was

688
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 5: being held true. There was when I was writing letters

689
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 5: to her, she was saying, I want ten million dollars

690
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 5: I want. I was saying, no, you don't understand. Her

691
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 5: movie is not even going to cost a million dollars.

692
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 5: It's like, it's not that kind of party. Didn't But

693
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 5: still she let She was such an optimistic person. It

694
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 5: was such a bizarre thing that when that Actually the

695
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 5: shock of Eileen Wants' life was that she was alive

696
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 5: at all, right, right, And the way that she had

697
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 5: made it through everything she made it through was by

698
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 5: believing that somehow everything was going to work out despite everything.

699
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 5: And so it was this strange reality of Eileen that

700
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 5: she still hoped that maybe I would tell the story,

701
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 5: maybe what I was saying was true, you know, that

702
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 5: maybe there was a story that showed some compassion to her,

703
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 5: even though we understood that she had gone and done

704
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 5: these horrible things, you know. And so that was an

705
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 5: incredible trip, and Charlie's and I sat down, we went

706
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 5: to Michigan and sat with Don Batkins and you know,

707
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 5: read all of these incredible letters which only supported everything

708
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 5: that I had already thought and read a lot of

709
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 5: the details trickled in and full of like the most heartbreaking,

710
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 5: heartbreaking details of her life, and letters between her and

711
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 5: Tyra and all of all of these things which were

712
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 5: really you know, you can't you can't underestimate the details

713
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 5: of those letters sinking into to our movie.

714
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 4: You know. When I think about Eileen's story, like we've

715
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 4: just talked about, I mean, there's abuse, there's generational trauma.

716
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 4: I mean that trauma and that energy right that she

717
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 4: held onto because of all the things that she had

718
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 4: been through, like it transcended into that violence, right, that

719
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 4: rage inside of her hugely. What lesson did you hope

720
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 4: that would come across through Monster, like the main thing

721
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 4: that you hoped, you know, the audiences would take with them.

722
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 5: I think more than anything, that film is just about compassion,

723
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 5: because because I can't moralize what she should have done differently,

724
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 5: you know, like and so just in needing to have

725
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 5: understanding of why the people do the things that they

726
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 5: do is really It's what it was for me, and

727
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 5: it was the thing that I was the most proper

728
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 5: focused on achieving with that film. That's why I named

729
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 5: it Monster is because I wanted to say, you're right,

730
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 5: you know, I want to say, you're absolutely right, she's

731
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 5: a monster. Let's come on in, let's see what what

732
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 5: a monster makes like what how do you how do

733
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 5: you trunk?

734
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 4: Technically, he turned someone into a.

735
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 5: Technically, you're totally correct, So let's go. Let's take a

736
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 5: look at the story of the birth of a monster.

737
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 5: And by the way, not every serial killer can you

738
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 5: do this with. For sure, there's a lot of you know,

739
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 5: there's a lot of people with pure psychological phenomenon that

740
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 5: we can't totally get get our heads around. But Eileen

741
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 5: was a perfect example, and many many serial killers are

742
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 5: also this of a person that if you look at

743
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 5: a series of events, you'll see a story that led

744
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 5: them to this series of crimes.

745
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 4: You know, as Rashia said, we were researching and looking

746
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 4: at all your videos and you know, you were asked

747
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 4: a question about like what would you do if you

748
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 4: weren't doing this, and you said a psychologist like, hello,

749
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 4: I do love it.

750
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 5: I am so interested, so interested.

751
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: But that's what makes you an amazing filmmaker, because you

752
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: can look at the monster and have compassion for them.

753
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 2: Because everyone has a story, right Like, that's why what

754
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: we always loved about our mom, right Like she could

755
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: sit across from you and yes, she's telling you her

756
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 2: life story within the first five minutes of meeting her.

757
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: But she wants to know your story, where you came from,

758
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: what you're about, no matter who you are. And one

759
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: last question I'd love to ask you and we'll start

760
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: to wrap it up, but we've never had a discussion

761
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: about Eileen.

762
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: You know, about monster and it's.

763
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 5: An interesting time. It's twenty years this next year since

764
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 5: we made it. Was shocking, but I was just talking

765
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 5: to Charlie's about it. I was like, Wow, what do

766
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 5: we do it's been twenty years.

767
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 3: That'd be something, Patty.

768
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, we should have a screening or something.

769
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 4: Else will be there.

770
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: You come to me.

771
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, But so other than us interviewing you and the

772
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 2: twenty year anniversary coming up, do you still think about

773
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: Eileen totally?

774
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 5: I really do. It's funny. It's hard to explain the

775
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 5: feeling because she imprinted herself, like I can feel her

776
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 5: spirit like someone you know really well, of course you know.

777
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 5: And none of it was ever glorifying. I was never

778
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 5: like she didn't do it and she didn't deserve it.

779
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 5: It was it was all true, like everything was all true.

780
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 5: But I also loved her, and I also felt brokenhearted

781
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 5: for her, and she also like morphed a little bit

782
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 5: with Charlie's, and so it became when Charlie's was on set,

783
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 5: Charlie's was this other person when she was playing it,

784
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 5: and that was also this interesting person that I miss

785
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 5: being around because it was Eileen brought to life, and

786
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 5: that was a very dimensional person who broke my heart

787
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 5: and did these horrible things and also was funny, outrageous

788
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 5: and incredibly ballsy and brave and all of these things.

789
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 5: And sometimes I'll think about whether she's on the other side,

790
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 5: and what that is like? Is she better now?

791
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 3: Right?

792
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 5: There is such a thing like what is that experience like?

793
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 5: But anyway, yeah, she still sticks with me.

794
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: She always will of course, of course.

795
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 4: Oh my god, Daddy, I cannot even begin to tell

796
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 4: you how honored we are that you are our first guess. Like,

797
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 4: I'm just so gride myself. And you know, I can

798
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 4: think about that first conversation. I don't even know if

799
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: you remember, but we had just finished Root of Evil

800
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 4: and Russ and I are on the phone with you

801
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 4: and you said to us, you said, you girls, you

802
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 4: go and you take this thing around the world and

803
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 4: you do good, and that is what we are trying

804
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 4: to do, you know. And I got to read this

805
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: to you because I keep this on my refrigerator and

806
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 4: this is my mom's writing, and it says I am

807
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 4: available for more good than I ever experienced or realized before,

808
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 4: and that is why we do facing evil.

809
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 5: So I think that's so great, Patty.

810
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 4: It was all because you and Sam.

811
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 5: Right, that's so awesome. Oh that just makes me so happy.

812
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 5: That just thrills me and your mind, you know, it

813
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 5: makes me so happy for you guys to be having

814
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 5: that avenue to do this with. I think that's awesome.

815
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 5: I'm proud of you, guys.

816
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 4: Oh, we're proud of you, Patty.

817
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: But before we let you go, miss Patty Jenkins. So

818
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: with Facing Evil, we and every episode with a segment

819
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: we like to call emua and imoa in Hawaiian means

820
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: to move onward and upward, but it's really more of

821
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: a call to healing. So we would love for you

822
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 2: to help us with the emua of this episode, Patty.

823
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: So what we'd like to ask you is, what do

824
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: you think is the emua or the light in the

825
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: darkness in the Eileen Wornout story?

826
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 5: Okay, So I'm a huge believer in story, not just

827
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 5: because I'm a filmmaker, but spiritually, Like, I think there's

828
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 5: something really profound about what story is to us and

829
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 5: how it influences us. And when I made Monster, I

830
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 5: had been very allied with the darkness in my youth.

831
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 5: I think I felt doomed to tragedy. After you know

832
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 5: where I lived when I was little, and then my

833
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 5: father dying on a plane crash, and then having these

834
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 5: other friends that dark things happened to you, I felt

835
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 5: like I would always be plagued with the darkness and

836
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 5: around dark things. And what blew my mind about Making

837
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 5: Monster was when it succeeded the phenomenon. I could feel

838
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 5: like that was a story that wanted to be told,

839
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 5: and in telling it, it turned darkness into light. And

840
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 5: I found myself saying, oh my god, that actually happened,

841
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 5: like that, something so dark wanted to come out and

842
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 5: incoming out turned itself into light. And that was something

843
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 5: that to me is the power of story of what

844
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 5: she did for the world for anyone that sees her story.

845
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 5: Is if it allowed anyone to hear the story of

846
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 5: her and her life and it to turn darkness into

847
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 5: light in that sort of way, that to me is

848
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 5: what the purpose of any of these stories are in

849
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 5: the world. Not that it's worth people dying for. It's

850
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 5: not like it was meant to be or anything, but

851
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 5: in telling it, you're able to shift what it was

852
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 5: into something else. And I felt that boy very much

853
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 5: about I Am the Night. I felt very much that way.

854
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 5: I was like, he doesn't own the story anymore. It's

855
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 5: not George's story anymore. We're telling the story, you know,

856
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 5: we're taking back and we're telling the story of a normal,

857
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 5: sad sack human who did horrible things, not a powerful

858
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,439
Speaker 5: scary man who told us what was possible in the world.

859
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 5: We're taking it, you know, So that to me is that,

860
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 5: to me is what it is with Aileen wann.

861
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 4: Us onward and upward. Ama.

862
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 3: Well that's our show for today.

863
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 2: Again, we owe a huge mahaalonui looa, a huge thank

864
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: you to the great Patty Jenkins for joining us.

865
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 4: And as always, we'd love to hear what you thought

866
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 4: about today's amazing discussion and if there is a case

867
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 4: that you would like us.

868
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: To cover, find us on social media at Facing Evil

869
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod at tenderfoot dot tv.

870
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: And one request if you haven't already, please find us

871
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: on iTunes and give us a review and a good rating.

872
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.

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00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 4: Until next time, Aloha.

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00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.

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00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia pacurero In Avet Gentile,

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00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf

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00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald Albright,

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00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV,

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00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico. Original

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00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on social

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00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: media or email us at Facing Evil pod at tenderfoot

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00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,

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00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.

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00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 5: Yes,