1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello and welcome. I'm Tracy Wilson 3 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frying. And today's episode I did not 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: mean to be a weird counterpoint to our episode on 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: the King's Daughters for the Fia du Bloch, but it is. 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: It's a weird counterpart to that episode. That was the 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: episode where uh, they needed more women in the new 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: colonies in Canada and so they rounded them up and 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: sent them there. This is sort of the same story, 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: but the women were not going voluntarily because they were 11 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: in fact prisoners. They were convicts. So, as we probably 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: all know, Great Britain used to use the continent of 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: Australia as a pane colony and consequently the first European 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: resident of Australia were mostly male and mostly criminals, and 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: really unsurprisingly this caused quite a lot of problems, and 16 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: the people in charge decided pretty much immediately, as in 17 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: before the first ships of the first Fleet turned around 18 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: to go back to England, that they needed to do 19 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: something about it. And that's where the transport ship known 20 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: as the Lady Juliana comes in. And while the King's 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: daughters worked pretty well as a plan. This plan did 22 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: not work quite as well. And in case it's not 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: clear from the title of this podcast, today's episode is 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: gonna include some pretty candid discussion of prostitution as well 25 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: as some aspects that may be disturbing to people. There 26 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: are some things that went on with these women that 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: were somewhere on the line between coerced and non consenting. 28 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: So just we get letters sometimes from parents who asks, 29 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: who asked why we did not give them a heads up. 30 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: So here is your heads up, parents and teachers. There 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: is some more adult content in this younger historians, maybe 32 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: not for them or if you're just really sensitive to 33 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: those kind of topics. Right, And it's also this is 34 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: a listener request from listener Connie, and it sounded in 35 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: the request a little more like a fun party time 36 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: than it actually is. Yes, So, in case you did 37 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: not know, Great Britain actually had a few reasons to 38 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: want to colonize Australia, which at the time was referred 39 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: to as New South Wales. And this was towards the 40 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: end of the seventeen hundreds, and a big reason was 41 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: to relieve the overcrowding in the prisons that were in Britain. 42 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: In the late eighteenth century, Britain's prison system was strained 43 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: to the breaking point thanks to a population boom. There 44 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: was also widespread poverty and a penal code that was 45 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: so strict that reformers called it quote the bloody Code. 46 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: The number of capital offenses on the books during this 47 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: period had quadrupled, and people were being sentenced to death 48 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: for crimes that, to today's eyes seemed extremely minor. It 49 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: also didn't help that the trial process was really skewed 50 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: in favor of the prosecution. Usually everything happened so quickly 51 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: that often the defendant did not even know it was 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: their turn yet, and they had already been at least 53 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: found guilty, if not also sentenced. And Great Britain had 54 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: before the Revolutionary War been using the American colonies to 55 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: offload prisoners, ultimately transporting fifty thousand prisoners to the colonies 56 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: before the war ended, but once the United States became independent, 57 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: that option was no longer available to Great Britain. And 58 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: just because people send us pedantic emails about this all 59 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: the time, at some points during that history Great in 60 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: Britain with Great Britain was not Great Britain yet it 61 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: was just England. Yeah, but it became great Britain during 62 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: the window. Please do not send us the then diagram anymore. Um. 63 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: Penal colonies also had another purpose besides just serving as prisons. 64 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: A transportation sentence was basically involuntary relocation and involuntary servitude. 65 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: The prisoners provided forced labor for British colonial interests for 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: the terms of their sentence, which was usually seven or 67 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: fourteen years, or sometimes for the rest of their lives. 68 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: Prisoner transportation also provided a long term population for the colony. 69 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: While people technically could return home once they'd finished their sentence, 70 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: it was really taken for granted that almost all of 71 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: them would stay and no one would be coming back. 72 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: So once you served your time, you'd have to save 73 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: up enough money to actually afford your passage back. That 74 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: was not an automatic trip, uh And even if you 75 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: could save up the money to make the voyage, you'd 76 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: have to endure an uncomfortable multi month trip to get 77 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: back to Europe. And of course people who had started 78 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: families while they were transported would either have to pay 79 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: or relocate them as well, or they would have to 80 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: leave them behind. A reason for colonizing Australia specifically was 81 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: so that Great Britain could build up its naval presence 82 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: in that part of the Pacific and expand its empire. 83 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 1: So on May thirteenth of seventeen eighty seven, a fleet 84 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: of eleven ships left Portsmouth, England, bound for Australia, and 85 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: this fleet became known as the First Fleet, and it 86 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: included six convict transports and three storeships. They were accompanied 87 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: by two escort ships from the Royal Navy. The convicts 88 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: aboard the transports included about five hundred seventy men and 89 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: a hundred sixty women, and in terms of the total 90 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: number of passengers who were going to stay in Australia 91 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: once the ships went back to Europe, there were two 92 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: hundred and forty two women and about eleven hundred men, 93 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: as well as some children. The First Fleet arrived in 94 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: January of sev and started a colony at Sydney Cove 95 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: and Jackson. Sydney Cove, which later became the City of Sydney, 96 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: became the first permanent European settlement in Australia. Meanwhile, Australia's 97 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: Aboriginal population at this point was estimated to number somewhere 98 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: between two hundred and fifty thousand and five hundred thousand. 99 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: Things went really badly at Sydney Cove basically immediately. People 100 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: were really exhausted and sick following the months long voyage 101 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: to get there, and most of the prisoners had little 102 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: to no experience in any of the skills that were 103 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: actually needed to keep a colony running. On top of that, 104 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: the soil was not right for the crops. It could 105 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: have been improved with animal manure, but most of the 106 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: animals that they had brought with them had died during 107 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: the voyage. They had also bought seeds to plant in 108 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: Cape Town, South Africa, and those had wound up germinating 109 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: in the hold of the ships, so they couldn't even 110 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: be planted once they got to Australia, and the vast 111 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: disparity of the sexes was causing real problems. There were 112 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: reports of sexual assaults, both of Aboriginal women in the 113 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: area and the female convicts who had been transported, and 114 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: it was obvious to the people running the colony that 115 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: it was not going to survive without women. Without family ties, 116 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: men were as likely as not to leave the colony 117 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: and strike out on their own once their sentences were served. 118 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: Governor Arthur Philip was also quite worried about the morality 119 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: and the relationships of the convicts under his charge, and 120 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: on February seventh, so not long at all after they arrived, 121 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: he gave this address um and, as it was recounted 122 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: in the seventeen eighty nine Voyages of Governor Philip to 123 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: Botany Bay quote he particularly noticed the illegal intercourse between 124 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: the sexes as an offense to which encouraged a general 125 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: profligacy of manners, and it was in several ways injurious 126 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: to society. To prevent this, he strongly recommended marriage, and 127 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: promised every kind of countenance and assistance to those who, 128 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: by entering into that state, should manifest their willingness to 129 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: conform to the laws of morality and religion. Governor Philip 130 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: concluded his address by declaring his earnest desire to promote 131 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: the happiness of all who were under his government, and 132 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: to render the settlement in New South Wales advantageous and 133 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: honorable to his country, and fourteen marriages did actually take 134 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: place the following week. However, the vast imbalance between the 135 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: number of men and the number of women meant that 136 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: getting married wasn't really just an option available for the 137 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: vast majority of the male convicts, and one of the 138 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: first dispatches he wrote back to Britain Governor Philip said 139 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: quite clearly got that quote. The very small proportion of 140 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: females makes the sending out of an additional number absolutely 141 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: necessary and this led to a plan that involved loading 142 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: a ship specifically with female convicts of child bearing age 143 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: to then to Australia to become wives. Before we talk 144 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: about exactly how they did this and who they filled 145 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: the ships with, let's take a brief moment for a 146 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: word from a sponsor stupendous, so to get back to 147 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: the Lady Julianna, which was also sometimes called the Lady 148 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: Julian and how they filled her with passengers. Once word 149 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: arrived in London that the penal colony in Australia needed 150 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: women prisoners, officials got to work finding ones who would suit. 151 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: They were going to be sent to Australia aboard the 152 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: second fleet of prison transports. And while there were enough 153 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: total women in London's prisons to do the job, many 154 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: of them were actually too old or in one way 155 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: or another not desirable as a wife. The search for 156 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: female prisoners of the right age wound up ranging all 157 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: over the country and it actually took five months to 158 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: find enough ladies. As the search was ongoing, the women 159 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: who had already been selected for transport had to wait 160 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: on board a prison ship, Lady Juliana, which was at 161 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: anchor in the Thames River. Some of them had to 162 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: wait in the hold of the ship for weeks or 163 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: months before it set sail, and none of them were 164 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: allowed out on the deck until the ship was at sea. 165 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: And this was like really a foul experience obviously, I 166 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: mean there were any imagined. Yeah, they were packed into 167 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: these type quarters in the ship. The ship's ballast was 168 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: made of this combination of sand and gravel, and where 169 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: it was located under the ship meant that it like 170 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: just soaked up everything fetted and could never be cleaned. 171 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: So the whole experience was very gross. It sounds just lurid. 172 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: Uh So some of these women that were in live 173 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: dealing with these conditions were those that have been sentenced 174 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: to death, but their sentences were commuted to transportation, and 175 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: these are some of them. Uh. Mary Burgess, who was 176 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: convicted for stealing a pair of sheets and a ta 177 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: chest containing money. Mary Carter had been sentenced to death 178 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: for three counts of shoplifting. Sarah Cowten had been sentenced 179 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: for assault and highway robbery. Elizabeth Emmons had also been 180 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: sentenced to death for three counts of shoplifting. Catherine Hayland 181 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: who was found guilty of counterfeiting coins and her sentence 182 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: was actually to be burned at the stake. It's also 183 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: Mary Coimes who had shoplifted thirty yards of printed linen, 184 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: and Mary Wade and Jane Whiting who had both been 185 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: convicted of highway robbery. So about these highway robberies, that 186 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: makes it sound like some women on horseback brandishing swords 187 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: came running up upon a carriage and and stole everything 188 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: from everyone inside by force. Right, That is not what happened. 189 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: That is the image that gets conjured. I think. So 190 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: Mary Wade and Jane Whiting, who were tried together because 191 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: they had committed the together. To quote from the records 192 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: at Old Bailey, which was where they were tried. Mary 193 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: Wade and Jane Whiting were indicted for foloniously assaulting Mary 194 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: Phillips on the King's Highway on the fifth of October 195 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: and putting her in fear and foloniously taking from her 196 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: person and against her will, one cotton frock, one linen tippet, 197 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: one linen cap, the property of John Forward when it 198 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: also gave the values of each of those things, which 199 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: were not much. So basically what they had done these 200 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: were children. They had locked another child into an outhouse 201 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: and stolen her clothes from her, and for this they 202 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: were both sentenced to death. They also severe penalty. Yeah. 203 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: They also they pawned those clothes for eighteen pence, So 204 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of how much this was 205 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: actually worth. And this is sort of where the information 206 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: gets a little bit startling. Uh. Mary Wade was the 207 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: youngest person aboard the Lady Juliana, and when she was tried, 208 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: she was only eleven years old. So these really were 209 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: just children, Yeah they were. They were definitely the youngest ones, 210 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: but a lot of the women on board were teenagers, 211 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: definitely um and not everyone viewed having their sentences commuted 212 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: as a mercy. Katholic Katherine Hayland, for example, she was 213 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: the one who was supposed to be burned at the stake. 214 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: She was one of a whole group of women who 215 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: were supposed to be executed, and they were all at 216 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 1: the same time offered to have their sentences commuted to transportation, 217 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: either for seven years or for life, and Katherine and 218 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: fifteen of the others agreed, but six of them said no, 219 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: some of them because they said they were innocent and 220 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: they were not going to make any concessions because they 221 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: weren't guilty in the first place, and others really believed 222 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: that transportation was a fate worse than death. I mean, 223 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: at this point there had essentially been one ship full 224 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: of prisoner or one fleet of ships full of prisoners 225 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: that had gone to Australia. It there was not really 226 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: a town there yet that people would be living in. 227 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: There were definitely Aboriginal peoples with their own societies and 228 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: their own culture, but the British viewed them with a 229 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: lot of fear and suspicion. Um so there were people 230 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: who would basically rather die than go there. And so 231 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: all six of these women who had refused were given 232 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: twenty four hours to think about it, after which they 233 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: refused again. And then it was only after days of 234 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: being kept on bread and water as punishment that most 235 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: of them begrudgingly changed their minds and agreed to go 236 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: to Australia. Um. There I think there was one who insisted, no, 237 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: you're just gonna have to hang me. I'm not gonna 238 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: do it. You can't make me. Yeah, And I'm sure 239 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: in their minds to some degree it was like a 240 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: thing where they were perceiving like, Okay, I can go 241 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: on this possibly likely horrible journey and die slow and miserable, 242 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: or I can be put to death relatively quickly. Right. 243 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: That was probably how they were weighing that out. It 244 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: wasn't so much that there weren't creature comforts there, but 245 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: that it looked like a pretty horrible end to come to. Yes. Uh. 246 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: Most of the women that were sent aboard the Lady Juliana, though, 247 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: were sentenced to transportation from the outset. It was not 248 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: a case of a reduced sentence. So some examples of 249 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: the women and crimes that got them uh sentenced to 250 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: transportation included Jane Wieldon, who was sentenced for stealing a 251 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: silk handkerchief from a shop. Mary Winspear had been sentenced 252 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: to transportation for stealing three men's hats, Rosamund Dale for 253 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: stealing goods with a value of five pounds, and Sarah 254 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: Acton for stealing ten live suckling pigs. Some of the 255 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: women who were brought aboard the Lady Juliana for transport 256 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: also had their babies with them, children that have been 257 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: born during imprisonment, and some of these women's husbands were 258 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: also on second fleet transport on one of the ships 259 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: carrying men and the end a second fleet wound up 260 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: with four prison transport ships and two store ships. The 261 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: other three transport ships mostly carried men, and on the 262 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: Lady Julianna. As we said before, all of the prisoners 263 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: were women. The Lady Julianna left on July twenty nine nine, 264 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: and they were roughly two hundred and forty five women aboard, 265 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: but their records are actually pretty sketchy. There are women 266 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: known to have escaped before the ship departed who were 267 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: never stricken from the manifest, and there were others that 268 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: were known to be aboard that were never added to 269 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: the manifest in the first place. Even though the whole 270 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: experience was pretty filthy and foul, the conditions on the 271 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: Lady Julianna were much better than on the other prison transports. 272 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: The women were allowed up on deck For the most part, 273 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: they had enough food to eat and water to drink. 274 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: They also had a surgeon on board to see to 275 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: their medical needs, and they were supplied with cloth and 276 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: needles and threads to make shirts, which would then be 277 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: sold when they got support. The other ships were an 278 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: entirely different matter. From a letter from w Hill to 279 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: Jonathan Waltham Esquire written in July, quote, the irons used 280 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: upon these unhappy wretches were barbarous. The contractors had been 281 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: in the Guinea trade and had put on board the 282 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: same shackles used by them in that trade, which are 283 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: made with a short bolt instead of chains, that dropped 284 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: between the legs and fastened with a bandage about the waist, 285 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: like those at the different galals. Those bolts were not 286 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: more than three quarters of a foot in length, so 287 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: that they could not extend either leg from the other 288 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: more than an inch or two at most. Thus fettered, 289 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: it was impossible for them to move, but at the 290 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: risk of both their legs being broken. So if you 291 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: are not familiar with the term guinea trade and haven't 292 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: put that together from contacts, he's basically saying this is 293 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: a slaving ship, but as transporting these prisoners and the 294 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: manner that was also used to transport slaves aboard the Juliana, 295 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: some of the women were taken as sailors, wives and 296 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: quotes for the nearly year long voyage. From the men's 297 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: point of view, it was really their right to have 298 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: a wife from one of the women for the duration 299 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: of the voyage. And it's entirely unclear, as you can 300 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: imagine how many of these relationships were entered into through 301 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: coercion or dress. It's not something you really keep records on. Uh. 302 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: Virtually all of the accounts we have of the journey 303 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: are from the men's points of view, and they're on 304 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: board affairs were not something that they really wrote home about. However, 305 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: these alleged wives did get preferential treatment, with more comfortable 306 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: places to sleep and the protection of one of the men. 307 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: So there was some advantage to this arrangement. And while 308 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: it's entirely likely that some of the women were coerced 309 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: or threatened or otherwise taken advantage of and even raped, 310 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: it is also entirely likely that some women played the 311 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: situation to their own advantage Consensually. I also want to 312 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: make really clear that this exact same scenario was true 313 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 1: on every prison transport that had women aboard, not just 314 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: on the Lady Julianna. And as many of these women 315 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: were very young and they really had no knowledge of contraception, 316 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: and the ship itself had not been outfitted with a 317 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: supply of condoms to be distributed, there were definitely babies 318 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: conceived along the way. The ship made a stop in 319 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: Santa Cruz to Tenerifee in the Canary Islands, which is 320 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: off the northwestern coast of Africa. On this stop, many 321 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: of the women were allowed to leave, most of them 322 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: escorted by some of the sailors. Some of them took 323 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: advantage of their time in port to do some of 324 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: the scamming and thievery that had landed them on the 325 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: transport in the first place. Mrs Elizabeth Barnsley was a 326 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: pickpocket and a thief who had been making a very 327 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: good living in England by stealing from upper class marks. 328 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: She had also become the de facto leader of the women. 329 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: She is older than most of them, in her wealth 330 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: and status meant that people looked up to her. In 331 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 1: Santa Cruz and in other ports. Men from shore visited 332 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: the ship, and she, seeing a lucrative opportunity, essentially became 333 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: a madam. They made other stops along the way as well, 334 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: and in one of them, in Rio de jed Narrow, 335 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: they stayed for about a month and a half, beginning 336 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: at the start of November. This is because women on 337 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: board had started to develop scurvy and several of them 338 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: were very eminently going to give birth. Somewhere between fifteen 339 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: and twenty babies were born while they were in Brazil, 340 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: and at that point the pregnant women mostly stayed in 341 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: a tent that they made for themselves on the deck 342 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: of the ship. Rio was more strict than the other 343 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: ports they had visited, so the convicts were mostly kept 344 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: aboard the ship, but there were still again men visiting 345 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: the ship from the shore. From Rio, their lady Julietta 346 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: went to Cape Town, South Africa, and then finally to 347 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: Sydney Cove. They arrived on June third, and their voyage 348 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: had taken almost a year. At this point, the first 349 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: fleet human cargo had already been there on the continent 350 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: of Australia for about two and a half years, and 351 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: uh they did not give the women from the Lady 352 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: Juliana a warm welcome. We will talk about why after 353 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: a brief word from a sponsor so to return to 354 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: the Lady Julianna's passengers. Before the female convicts left the 355 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: Lady Julianna, they all donned their best dresses, which had 356 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: been brought up from the hold for them to put 357 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: on for the occasion. They saw to each other's hair 358 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: and nails, and brows and their teeth. They were also 359 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: in overall better health than a lot of them had 360 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: been uh when they left for London. There were two 361 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty two of them and a number of babies. However, 362 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: the colony at Sydney Cove did not want women. What 363 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: they wanted was food and supplies, and things had not 364 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: improved since they had arrived there. They've been strictly rationing food, 365 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: and their infirmary had been wiped pretty much cleaned by 366 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: a smallpox outbreak. So instead of the food and supplies 367 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: and and medical equipment that they desperately needed, what they 368 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 1: got were more mouths to feed, and they were not 369 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: even mouths that would be expected to earn their keep 370 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: by hard manual labor. That the colony also desperately needed. 371 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: On top of that, these women who had been intended 372 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: to provide emotional ties to transported men that were already 373 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: in Australia, they instead now had emotional ties to the 374 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: sailors above aboard the Lady Juliana. They had been in 375 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: close quarters together for almost a year, and some of 376 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: them had children together. When the time came for the 377 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: Lady Juliana to depart, some women refused to leave, or 378 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: else they are men threatened to break their contracts and 379 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: stay in Australia. Some of the sailors even married there 380 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: on board wives for real on shore. Fortunately, more of 381 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: the second fleet, which had been just hugely delayed in 382 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: leaving Europe, which is how they managed to get to 383 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: Australia at about the same time as a ship that 384 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: had taken way way way longer than normal. Other ships 385 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: arrived about eighteen days behind the Lady Julianna, and these 386 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: ships brought more convicts as well. There had been one 387 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen of them aboard when they left Britain, 388 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: and seven hundred fifty nine of them had survived. However, 389 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: one of the two storeships that had been along with 390 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: the rest of the second fleet, did wreck during the journey, 391 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: so those provisions had had been lost that they did 392 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: have more labor, more supplies that showed up a couple 393 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: of weeks after the Lady Julianna got there, and while 394 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: this did smooth things over, the surprise one of the 395 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: other second Fleet ships wound up taking about one hundred 396 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: and fifty of the Lady Juliana's female convicts north to 397 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: Norfolk Island, which was another of Britain's Australian colonies, rather 398 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: than having them stay in Sydney Cove. So that's how 399 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: they tried to address the gender imbalance a little bit. 400 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: It was not really successful. Representatives of the British government 401 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: in Australia did everything they could think of to encourage 402 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: people to get married. They really thought this was extremely important, 403 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: and apart from requesting this shipment of specifically female convicts, 404 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: they also decided that married men would get extra land, 405 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: so they would get fifty acres plus ten more acres 406 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: for every child they had, while unmarried men would only 407 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: get thirty. However, the marriagery in Australia continued to be 408 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: quite low overall for many years, and the imbalance between 409 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: the sexes lasted a long time. There were still more 410 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: European men than women in austra Alia for something like 411 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: a century, and convicts also outnumbered free settlers until the 412 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties. All but about twenty five of the women 413 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: who went to Australia aboard the Lady Juliana wound up 414 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: staying in Australia for the rest of their lives. Some 415 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: of them did marry and went on to be wives 416 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: and mothers, and others once their sentence was up, started 417 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: enterprises of their own and became the owners of pubs 418 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: and ranches and other businesses. One in particular, Mary Wade, 419 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: who was the young girl that was sentenced to death 420 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: at age eleven for stealing another girl's clothes, is reported 421 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: to have had three hundred living descendants when she died. 422 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: We've gotten a couple of requests to do a podcast 423 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: specifically about her, just because the story of arriving on 424 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: a prison transport and then having reportedly three hundred living 425 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: descendants is pretty amazing. People call her sometimes the Mother 426 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: of Australia, which sort of overlooks that there were already 427 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: plenty of people in Australia before she had her three 428 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: descendants descendants. Later on, Convict transports for women also became 429 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: much more regimented, with the women having strictly supervised schedules 430 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: that included cleaning, meals and work um like the soone 431 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: shirts that the women on the Lady Julianna did, except 432 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: in the Lady Julianna's case, those materials had come from 433 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: the captain and had not really been an official part 434 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: of the government strategy. This presumably cut down on the 435 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: sort of quote floating brothel nature of what had happened 436 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: on the Julianna, and maybe also on the liaisons between 437 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: the women and the crew. One of my resources for 438 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: this episode was a book called The Floating Brothel, which 439 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: tells the stories, like the more human stories of a 440 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: bunch of the individual women who were on the ship. 441 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: It goes into a lot more detail about specifically with 442 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: their lives are like before and what their lives are 443 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: like after. There's one story about this, uh, this woman 444 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: who one of the crew who went on to write 445 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: a memoir about his experience. He basically just fell in 446 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: love with her right from the beginning while they were 447 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: still docked on the Thames, and they had this whole 448 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: relationship that lasted the whole journey and they had a 449 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: baby together and uh, he then he had to leave. 450 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: You know, his duty was to go back with his 451 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: ship to continue on with its mission, which from there 452 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: was to to continue I think into the tea trade 453 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: after it had dropped off all the prisoners, um. And 454 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: they had this whole heart wrenching goodbye where she was 455 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: going to wait for him and he was going to 456 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,959 Speaker 1: try to come back from her, and he for her, 457 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: and he even tried to get out of his contract 458 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: so he could just stay with her in Australia. UM. 459 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: And then he left and then she married another guy 460 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: the next day the next day. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, 461 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: there are lots of very human stories and some of 462 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: them are touching. Some of them are really definitely disturbing, 463 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: and uh, the whole idea of okay, we need to 464 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: specifically send female prisoners, some of whom were sentenced for 465 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: just really minor crimes like that part is really disturbing. UM. 466 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: And at the same time, there are some pretty captivating, uh, 467 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: individual experiences in that whole setting, which kind of surprised me. Yeah. 468 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's so funny to think about how 469 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: strict sort of the the penal system was when you 470 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: could be sentenced to death for really mine. You know, 471 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: not to say that stealing closes something good to do, 472 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: but it's certainly bad. But it seems like an extreme 473 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: case to sentence something like that to death, or even 474 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: to put someone on a ship for a multi month journey, 475 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: to send them away from the country for probably the 476 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: rest of their lives. Um. You know, whenever I'm reser 477 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: saying an article or a podcast, I often sort of 478 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: recap for Patrick what it's about, and often he has 479 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: these responses that are similar to my responses as I 480 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: have been doing the research. And so I had told 481 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: him that, you know, that it was the ship, and 482 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: it was full of women who were being sent to 483 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: populate Australia, specifically with women prisoners because there were too 484 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: many men prisoners, um. And that a lot of the 485 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: people who were sent were teenagers who had basically shoplifted something. 486 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: A lot of them had shoplifted fabric or a spoon 487 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: or you know, needles and thread and ribbons, like a 488 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: lot of it was the shoplifting of basic things that 489 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: you needed for life. And Patrick was like, that seems 490 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: really excessive, And I said well, you know, there is 491 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: a reason that in the Constitution we have things about 492 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: cruel and unusual punishment, like it was a response to 493 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: some of the things that now today seemed very cruel 494 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: and unusual. Uh. And on that note, I have listener mail. 495 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: That's alright. What's listener mail? Is from Brian and Ryan 496 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: says Hi, Tracy and Holly. This is Ryan. I'm one 497 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: of the people who made a was England at War 498 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: with France? Website? Those are they still delight me? They're 499 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: so charming And yes, Coog made us websites to tell 500 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: us whether England was at where with France. Anyway, I'm 501 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: writing in about your recent Greatly Forward episode. A couple 502 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: of years ago, I spent six months studying abroad in Beijing, 503 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: where I took courses in Chinese history, art, and culture, 504 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: among other things. So needless to say, I'm pretty excited 505 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: about your People's Republic of China mini series. You guys 506 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: didn't mention a small detail that I personally think it's 507 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: important to understand part of why the Great Leap Forward 508 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: failed when government officials greatly overestimated crop and production yields. 509 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: You mentioned they did so for a couple of reasons. 510 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: Saving face and helping others do the same as a 511 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: big part of Chinese culture, and to admit that yields 512 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: were less than expected to now and his government would 513 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: not only make mall lose face, but also the officials themselves, 514 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: so they thought it better to overestimate. The other reason 515 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: was fear of prosecution. You mentioned that dissenters were heavily punished, 516 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: and those people in charge of making sure yields were high. 517 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: We're afraid that if their superiors found out that they 518 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: had failed to do their jobs, they would be persecuted 519 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: and lose their jobs as well. I'm not sure if 520 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: you just didn't know these details or if you left 521 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: them out intentionally, but I thought i'd write in and 522 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,239 Speaker 1: tell you about them all the same as always, keep 523 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: up the excellent work and have a great week, Ryan, 524 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: So thank you Ryan for writing UM. I don't think 525 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: we specifically used the term saving face in either of 526 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: our episodes that relate to the Great Leap Forward UM, 527 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: which at the point of getting this email, only one 528 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: of them had come out, so Ryan had not heard 529 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: the next one yet when he wrote into this, so 530 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: I don't think we specifically talked about the idea of 531 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: saving face um, which is an important part of it. 532 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: But we did uh talk quite a bit about people 533 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: being afraid of retribution, and some of that does um 534 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: in the episode about the Great Famine, more so than 535 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: in the episode about the Great Leap Forward, so UM, 536 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: just because it is an important piece of it that 537 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: I don't think we specifically use that term. I wanted 538 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: to read Ryan's letter to that and to remind everybody 539 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: that there are now some websites on the Internet where 540 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: you can find out whether England and France were at 541 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: war in a particular year, which I find to be delightful. 542 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: So if you would like to write to U s, 543 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: you can. We're at History Podcasts at how stuff Works 544 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: dot com. We're also on Facebook at Facebook dot com 545 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: slash miss in history and on Twitter at miss in history. 546 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: Are tumbler is miss in history dot tumbler dot com, 547 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: and we're on Pinterest at pinterest dot com slash missed 548 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: in history. If you would like to learn about one 549 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: of the uglier facets of what we talked about today, 550 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: you can come to our website. Put the word brothel 551 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: in the search bar and you will find the article 552 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: how human trafficking works. Uh. There are parts of the 553 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: story that do you sort of seem more like a 554 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: human trafficking uh element than you know, a conscious and 555 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: consenting decision made by the people who are involved. So 556 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: you can do that at our website, which is how 557 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. And you can also come to 558 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: our show website which is missed in History dot com. 559 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: You can get show notes, you can get all of 560 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: the episodes in one archive, and a thing I have 561 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: not mentioned as we also have a store now which 562 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: is it missed in History dot spreadshirt dot com, So 563 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: you can find out all kinds of awesome information and 564 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: here every episode at how stuff works dot com and 565 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: missed in History dot com. For more on this and 566 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works dot com.