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Speaker 8: Hey, Daniel, do you get a lot of emails claiming

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Speaker 8: that Einstein was wrong?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just about every day I get an email from

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Speaker 1: some retired engineer who sends me there Einstein was wrong paper?

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Speaker 8: Is that the stereotype they retired engineer who has a

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Speaker 8: lot of time in their hands.

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Speaker 1: Not just the stereotype, it's also the reality.

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Speaker 8: Do you not get emails from retired physicists?

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Speaker 1: Also, physicists don't retire.

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Speaker 8: I guess they wouldn't asked you questions if they were physicists.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they would just publish the papers themselves.

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Speaker 8: Or physicists never retire. Maybe the only engineers are smart

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Speaker 8: enough never retire.

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Speaker 1: We just read eat away.

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Speaker 8: But do you read these emails or did you just

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Speaker 8: you know, send them to your trash box. No.

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Speaker 1: I give each of them like ten or fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 1: See maybe if they're onto something.

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Speaker 8: Oh well, ten to fifteen minutes, that's a that's a

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Speaker 8: pretty good amount. Do you do it because you think

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Speaker 8: they might be right?

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Speaker 1: I believe in curiosity and maybe somebody out there does

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Speaker 1: have a great idea. I mean, their heart's in the

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Speaker 1: right place, even if usually the details are wrong.

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Speaker 8: So you do think they might be right.

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Speaker 1: Well, they're definitely right that Einstein was wrong. It just

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Speaker 1: so happens that so are most of these engineers.

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Speaker 8: Well, I guess that's wrong. Is Einstein is not a

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Speaker 8: bad title. I mean, if he couldn't get it right,

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Speaker 8: at least the engineers are trying.

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Speaker 1: Eventually, one of these engineers is going to figure it out.

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Speaker 8: But what if they figure it out on like the

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Speaker 8: sixteenth minute of their paper. Maybe you should double your

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Speaker 8: efforts until you retire.

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Speaker 1: There you go, that's going to retire me.

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Speaker 8: I am horeham May, cartoonist and the author of Oliver's

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Speaker 8: Great Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I want to be around when

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Speaker 1: we figure out how Einstein was wrong.

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Speaker 8: But you don't want to be the one who figures

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Speaker 8: it out? Do you just want to be around?

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Speaker 1: I just want to cling on to my tenured position

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Speaker 1: for long enough to be here for the party when

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Speaker 1: somebody else figures it out. Now, I'd love to figure

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Speaker 1: it out myself. I'm just not that egotistical.

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Speaker 9: Hmm.

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Speaker 8: Do you think there'll be a big party when they

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Speaker 8: prove Einstein was wrong? Wouldn't that be sort of like,

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Speaker 8: you know, spinning on the grave of a great genius.

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Speaker 1: No, I think it was a tremendous accomplishment when Einstein

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Speaker 1: proved Newton wrong and no shade on Newton. You know,

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Speaker 1: Newton made a huge advance, a big leap forward, just

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Speaker 1: not all the way to the final truth. And same

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Speaker 1: way with Einstein. And you know the history of physics

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Speaker 1: is littered with these pivotal moments when we made a

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Speaker 1: leap forward in understanding. And I want to be around

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Speaker 1: when we have one of those.

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Speaker 8: But do you think Eystein held a party like and

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Speaker 8: Newton was wrong?

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Speaker 1: Party was wrong party? I don't know if you put

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Speaker 1: it that way, you know, but when his theory of

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Speaker 1: john relativity was so publicly proven right by the eclipse

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Speaker 1: and the visible bending of light, I bet he had

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Speaker 1: a glass of champagne or something.

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Speaker 8: Or maybe he was, you know, nice enough not to

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Speaker 8: dis on mutiny.

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Speaker 1: We're all standing on the shoulders of giants. We don't

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Speaker 1: have to denigrate those giants.

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Speaker 8: That's why you only like to stand under grave and dance.

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Speaker 8: But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 8: the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we try to climb onto the shoulders of

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Speaker 1: those giants with you to bring you along on this

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Speaker 1: fascinating journey The humans have been engaged in for thousands

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Speaker 1: of years to try to understand the nature of our universe.

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Speaker 1: Is there a single law that explains how everything works

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Speaker 1: out there? Is there a final truth for us to discover.

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Speaker 1: Are we on the path to deeply understanding the nature

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Speaker 1: of reality or as an endless quest, a long ladder

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Speaker 1: of improvements without ever actually reaching the truth.

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Speaker 8: That's right because as much as science has discovered about

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Speaker 8: the universe, about how it all works, why it's all

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Speaker 8: made off, there's still a whole bunch of stuff that

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Speaker 8: we don't know about, big mysteries out during the cosmos

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Speaker 8: that we are still trying to figure out, and that

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Speaker 8: we have lots of ideas for. But sometimes those ideas

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Speaker 8: are not quite.

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Speaker 1: Right, because science is a process, not a destination, and

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Speaker 1: we are continually updating, improving and revising our theories for

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Speaker 1: how things work. We think we understand something, and then

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Speaker 1: a decade later an engineer shows.

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Speaker 8: Us we were wrong, as is always the case.

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Speaker 1: But those are happy moments in science. Those are the

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Speaker 1: critical pivotal steps forward. Those bring us closer to the truth.

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Speaker 1: We're not here to defend the ideas of the ancients,

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Speaker 1: to hold up Aristotilian physics for everybody to believe in,

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Speaker 1: but to bring ourselves closer to the truth by revising

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Speaker 1: the ideas of geniuses who have come before us.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: I feel like that's a very core principle of science

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Speaker 8: that makes it so special, is that there's always the

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Speaker 8: possibility that you could be wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, probably everything we know about science is

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Speaker 1: wrong in some sense. Everything we do is some approximation

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Speaker 1: of the truth which we might never actually reach.

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Speaker 8: What do you mean, never reach? Are you giving up now?

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Speaker 1: I'm not giving up. I'm promising job security for future physicists.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying it's an infinite task.

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Speaker 8: You're saying, if you're a physicists, you're never going to retire,

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Speaker 8: So choose engineering if you want to at some point

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Speaker 8: stop working.

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be humble. You know, every idea

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Speaker 1: we've had in physics has eventually been supplanted by something

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Speaker 1: more precise, something we think is more deeply true. It'd

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Speaker 1: be really egotistical to say, well, the idea we have now,

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Speaker 1: this is the one that's going to hold up forever.

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Speaker 8: Well, this has been going on for centuries and maybe

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Speaker 8: even thousands of years, and even big names like Einstein,

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Speaker 8: people think might not be quite right.

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Speaker 1: Some of these theories we've developed are not just very

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Speaker 1: very accurate, they're beautiful. They give us deep insights into

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Speaker 1: how the universe might work. They tell us a story

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Speaker 1: about how the universe functions, sometimes in a way that's

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Speaker 1: very surprise seeing an intuitive for us. So it's hard

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Speaker 1: to believe. But we think most of these theories might

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Speaker 1: still be wrong.

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Speaker 8: So today on the podcast, we'll be tackling the question

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Speaker 8: how is general relativity wrong? Shouldn't mean to first talk

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Speaker 8: about how it's right?

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Speaker 1: We should, but I just.

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Speaker 8: Is that what we've been doing for the last five

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Speaker 8: hundred episodes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the last one hundred years has been how general

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Speaker 1: relativity is right? But I was going to say, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the group of retired engineers, but then I realized,

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Speaker 1: are you a retired engineer already?

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Speaker 8: I am an engineer technically, I guess you don't lose

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Speaker 8: the title. Yeah, I'm not quite retired. I'm not sure

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Speaker 8: anyone would trust me to design a bridge or any

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Speaker 8: kind of a car or anything. Maybe a robot robots?

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Speaker 8: What could go wrong with exactly? I've never read a

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Speaker 8: story about robots. Robots are totally safe. But yeah, no,

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Speaker 8: but I look forward to the they work and when

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Speaker 8: I can retire for sure, then I can send you questions.

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Speaker 1: You'll get your fifteen minutes just like everybody.

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Speaker 8: Else, my fifteen minutes of physics.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, that's right.

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Speaker 8: Most people along for fifteen minutes of fame. Entire engineer

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Speaker 8: is long for fifteen minutes of a physicist time. But yeah,

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Speaker 8: this is an interesting question to talk about. How general relativity,

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Speaker 8: which is I guess, the main theory or one of

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Speaker 8: the main theories that Einstein discovered, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Einstein made lots of contributions to physics, even inspiring

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics with this explanation of the photoelectric effect, which

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Speaker 1: is what he actually won the Nobel Prize for. But

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Speaker 1: a lot of people think that his greatest contribution to

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Speaker 1: physics really were the theories of special relativity and then

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Speaker 1: general relativity and tell us about how light operates, what

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Speaker 1: space time really is, and explain that gravity is not

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Speaker 1: actually a force, it's just a product of the curvature

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Speaker 1: of space and time.

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Speaker 8: I would have thought his greatest contribution was his hair.

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Speaker 8: Do you know, I feel like it's so iconic in

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Speaker 8: the culture and it's given permission to every physicist since

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Speaker 8: then not get a haircut.

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Speaker 1: But it's so effortless, right, that's the whole point of

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Speaker 1: his hairdo is like, I don't even care what he

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Speaker 1: looks like out there. I don't. I don't have to

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Speaker 1: look at it. You got to look at.

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Speaker 8: It, That's what I mean. That's what I mean. You

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Speaker 8: keep permission for the rest of you, see, to give

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Speaker 8: all of the the other physicists standing on his shoulders

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Speaker 8: to just let it all hang out.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're standing on his shoulders. You got your head

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Speaker 1: stuck right in that hair. You know, you can't really.

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Speaker 8: Avoid it everywhere, that's right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't drop

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Speaker 8: a pan or anything, you might lose it in that hair. Well,

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Speaker 8: as usually, we were wondering how many people out there

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Speaker 8: had thought about the idea that Einstein might be wrong,

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Speaker 8: that general relativity is not quite right, and in which

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Speaker 8: way isn't it right?

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Speaker 1: So thanks very much to everybody who answered these questions.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to join our group of volunteers,

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Speaker 1: please write to me two questions at Danielandjorge dot com.

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Speaker 1: We'd love to hear your voice.

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Speaker 8: But do you have to be a retired engineer to

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Speaker 8: join the group.

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Speaker 1: You can be a current engine you can be a

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Speaker 1: retired engineer, you can be an inspiring engineer, you could

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Speaker 1: be a chocolate engineer. Any kind of engineer is welcome,

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Speaker 1: even non engineers.

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Speaker 8: Well, think about it for a second. How do you

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Speaker 8: think general relativity might be wrong? Here's what people had

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Speaker 8: to say.

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Speaker 9: And I think general relativity is wrong or has to

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Speaker 9: be wrong because in its sort of proposition of singularity

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Speaker 9: in the middle of black holes, because that's just like impossible, right,

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Speaker 9: somehow that has got to be not true.

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Speaker 10: I'm not entirely sure how general relativity is wrong. It's

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Speaker 10: actually been something that's bothering me, so I'll be very

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Speaker 10: interested to hear. And I suspect it is quantum physics

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Speaker 10: that has disproved. So I'm not entirely sure how the.

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Speaker 11: Hi Daniel and Hawaii love your show. Keep up the

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Speaker 11: great work. I think the biggest thing that seems off

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Speaker 11: with general relativity to me is the idea that there

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Speaker 11: is an infinity. If you think about other concepts like

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Speaker 11: absolute zero, there's reasons in real life why we can't

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Speaker 11: reach that temperature. And I think if we can understand

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Speaker 11: what those reasons are for black holes, for example, then

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Speaker 11: maybe we'll be able to understand what the problem is

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Speaker 11: with general relativity.

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Speaker 12: Well, it doesn't account for quantum physics and quantum particles,

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Speaker 12: and I think with how the Big Bang started, it

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Speaker 12: doesn't count for the very initial moments after the Big

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Speaker 12: Bang because that includes quantum particles.

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Speaker 8: All Right, I feel like maybe we've talked about this

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Speaker 8: enough in our podcast that people seem pretty familiar with

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Speaker 8: this idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think we've been sort of gently nagging general

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Speaker 1: relativity for a while now. If people have some clues.

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Speaker 8: Where we're trying to seduce general realativity here, what's your

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Speaker 8: plan here?

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Speaker 1: No, we've been sort of warming people up to the

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Speaker 1: idea that maybe general relativity isn't telling us the truth

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Speaker 1: about nature.

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Speaker 8: Well, let's dig into Daniel. First of all, what is

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Speaker 8: general relativity and how is it different than other kinds

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Speaker 8: of relativity.

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Speaker 1: So Einstein's first theory of relativity was special relativity, and

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Speaker 1: this was in response to weird mysteries about the speed

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Speaker 1: of light, the Michaelson Morley experiment, electromagnetism and frame dependence

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Speaker 1: and all that stuff. And the theory of special relativity

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Speaker 1: is the one that tells us that light moves at

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Speaker 1: the same speed for all observers, and it leads us

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Speaker 1: to understand how time flows, and how events can be

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Speaker 1: simultaneous for one person and not simultaneous for another. And

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Speaker 1: things get shorter at high speeds, and there's a maximum

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Speaker 1: speed at which things can travel. That's all the fascinating

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Speaker 1: physics of special relativity, which already it was like a

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Speaker 1: huge brain twist for people back then, right, it was

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Speaker 1: very hard to accept very new idea for how the

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Speaker 1: universe worked. That was special relativity.

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Speaker 8: But is it called special relativity? What is it special

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Speaker 8: from or about?

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Speaker 1: Because it's only relevant in one particular circumstance, and that's

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Speaker 1: when you assume that space is flat, that space has

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Speaker 1: no curvature to it. General relativity is his generalization of

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Speaker 1: special relativity to much broader set of cases, scenarios where

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Speaker 1: the universe has big lumps of mass in it and

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Speaker 1: that mass curves space. Instead of thinking about light pulses

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Speaker 1: moving through space in straight lines and staying parallel to

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Speaker 1: each other, now he developed the mathematics to consider what

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Speaker 1: happened when space itself was curved. When light moved in

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Speaker 1: what seemed like curved paths.

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Speaker 8: But did he call it special relativity when he came

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Speaker 8: up with it, Like, did he know as a special

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Speaker 8: case and maybe it wouldn't didn't apply to the rest

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Speaker 8: of the universe.

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Speaker 1: Mm hm, I'm sure some of our German listeners will

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Speaker 1: know how to say it in German, because these original papers,

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Speaker 1: of course, were not in English. But yeah, he originally

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Speaker 1: called it special relativity and then general relativity.

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Speaker 8: But does that mean then that special relativity is automatically

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Speaker 8: wrong because it only works when space is flat. But

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Speaker 8: space is never flat, is it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question, and it sort of begs

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Speaker 1: the philosophical question what do we mean by wrong? Because

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Speaker 1: the universe is never totally empty. Space is always a

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Speaker 1: little bit curved here, a little bit curved there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even if you just have a photon passing through space,

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Speaker 1: that is curving space itself, right, because photons have energy.

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Speaker 1: So in that sense, special relativity is approximately right. It's

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Speaker 1: never deeply truly right because it doesn't describe our universe.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't mean the rules of special relativity are wrong, right.

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Speaker 1: It could be that the rules of special relativity are correct,

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Speaker 1: they're just never applicable because the situation describes an energy

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Speaker 1: less universe never actually arises.

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Speaker 8: Wait, so special relativity sort of only works in a

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Speaker 8: Newtonian kind of universe, Like you have to assume that

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Speaker 8: Newton was right first.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, Newton had a different theory of space and time.

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Speaker 1: He thought that space and time were absolute backdrops, that

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Speaker 1: you could like measure your velocity relative to space, that

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Speaker 1: space was this like stage upon which everything happened. Special

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Speaker 1: relativity already tells you that things like velocity are relative.

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Speaker 1: There is no absolute frame of reference to the universe.

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Speaker 1: So even special relativity is a big departure from Newton's

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Speaker 1: view of how the universe worked.

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Speaker 8: But it sort of also assumed that, like a giant

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Speaker 8: universe is not vendible, that's like fixed, kind of.

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Speaker 1: In the same sense that Newton assumed that, like the

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Speaker 1: X axis runs perfectly straight out to infinity. Special relativity

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Speaker 1: also assumes that.

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Speaker 8: Okay, So then did Einstein know that he had relativity

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Speaker 8: in his boget when he came up with special relativity

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Speaker 8: or was it like a progression of theories.

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Speaker 1: It was definitely a progression. He had not yet solved

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Speaker 1: general relativity. This is not like a staged release where

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Speaker 1: he's like, I got a big idea, but I to

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Speaker 1: like drip it out to the public. This is not

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Speaker 1: like a people camp.

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Speaker 8: But he sort of knew that he special if he

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Speaker 8: called it special relativity, he knew that only applied to

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Speaker 8: a special case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but he hadn't solved the general case yet. It

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Speaker 1: took him years and years to figure it out because

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Speaker 1: the mathematics was super hairy and he relied on like

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Speaker 1: clever ideas from other mathematical geniuses that he talked to

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Speaker 1: to make his theory of general relativity work. And it's

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Speaker 1: still famously almost impossible to deal with, Like, the equations

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Speaker 1: of general relativity are so complicated, we mostly can't even

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Speaker 1: solve them for anything that looks like our universe. Like

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Speaker 1: we've solved general relativity for scenarios like the universe is

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Speaker 1: filled smoothly with mass, where the universe has nothing in

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Speaker 1: it but a black hole, we can't exactly solve the

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Speaker 1: equations of general relativity for any realistic scenarios because they're

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Speaker 1: so hairy. So it took Einstein years to come up

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Speaker 1: with his theory.

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Speaker 8: M But I guess maybe my question is, like, when

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Speaker 8: he came up with special relativity, did he know that

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Speaker 8: space could actually bend, that the universe actually very different

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Speaker 8: or did that come about when he discovered general relativity.

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Speaker 1: Now we had that idea that he wanted to incorporate

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Speaker 1: curvature into the fabric of space time as a way

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Speaker 1: to explain gravity. He just hadn't figured out how to

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Speaker 1: make the mathematics of it all work, and that took

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Speaker 1: years and sort of novel mathematics at the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: differential geometry, the idea of like thinking about how things

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Speaker 1: move along curve services that was kind of new stuff

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Speaker 1: one hundred years ago.

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Speaker 8: All right, well, maybe break it down for us. How

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Speaker 8: would you explain what general relativity is.

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Speaker 1: General relativity is an explanation for why we think there's

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Speaker 1: a force of gravity. It tells us that as things

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Speaker 1: move through space, it's not, as Newton described, that they

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Speaker 1: have mass and that mass gives them a force that

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Speaker 1: attract each other. But instead that mass bends space and

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Speaker 1: then they move according to the curvature of that space.

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Speaker 1: So when you jump off a building and you fall

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Speaker 1: towards the Earth, it's not that the Earth's gravity is

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Speaker 1: pulling on you, accelerating you to towards the center of

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Speaker 1: the Earth. But now you're moving according to the curvature

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Speaker 1: of space. The Earth has bent space, and you're moving

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Speaker 1: along that curvature towards the center of the Earth. So

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Speaker 1: it's a different picture.

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Speaker 8: And I guess you mean space time right, because you

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Speaker 8: have to kind of mix time into it, right, because

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Speaker 8: like something the bowling bolt, doesn't fall towards the Earth

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Speaker 8: like it needs time to do that. Right.

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Speaker 1: Time is definitely important factor. And special relativity already showed

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Speaker 1: us that space and time are very closely connected. It

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Speaker 1: actually linked them together into a four dimensional object. And

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Speaker 1: in that sort of four dimensional way of thinking, a

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Speaker 1: lot of things that didn't make sense in three D

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Speaker 1: space and one D time now click together to make

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Speaker 1: these really beautiful symmetries that you just don't have if

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Speaker 1: you think about space and time separately. The same way

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Speaker 1: that like linking electricity and mechnetism together into one object

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Speaker 1: explains a lot of mysteries between them. Linking space and

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Speaker 1: time together into one object really makes the mathematics crisp

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Speaker 1: and clear and beautiful. So you have Special relativity is

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Speaker 1: based on the idea that space and time are linked,

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Speaker 1: and general relativity just expands that. So ye, absolutely space

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Speaker 1: time is curved, and general relativity also predicts the distortion

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Speaker 1: of time. As things pass through curvature, their time ticks

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Speaker 1: more slowly. General relativity describes the curvature of space time, but.

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Speaker 8: The way you're describing it is sort of like it's

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Speaker 8: all about gravity.

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Speaker 1: Gravity comes out as a consequence of this story. Really,

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Speaker 1: what we're trying to do is describe the nature of reality,

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Speaker 1: like what's out there? Why do things move the way

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Speaker 1: we see them moving? If you're in a spaceship and

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Speaker 1: you're looking at the Earth orbiting the cell and you

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Speaker 1: want to know why is it? Newton tells you one story.

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Speaker 1: He says there's a force between these objects pulling on them.

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Speaker 1: Einstein tells you a different story. He says there's no

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Speaker 1: force there, there's no acceleration. That's the inertial motion of

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Speaker 1: the Earth through curved space time. Both stories are trying

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Speaker 1: to explain what we see, but they are describing very

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Speaker 1: different realities.

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Speaker 8: I guess what I mean is, like, let's say you

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Speaker 8: take gravity out of the equation, Like you're just talking

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Speaker 8: about two electrons in space repelling each other from their

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Speaker 8: electrical charge. Do you still need general relativity to describe that? Motion.

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Speaker 1: No, In fact, we don't know how to do general

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Speaker 1: relativity on electrons. That's one of the problems.

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Speaker 8: Oh well, sounds like I just skipped ahead exactly.

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Speaker 1: So no, you do not need general relativity to describe

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Speaker 1: all the quantum interactions that exist, like in flat space.

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Speaker 1: Two electrons out there, assume they're not perturbing space because

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Speaker 1: their masses are so small. Then no, we can do

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics and explain all those electron interactions without general

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Speaker 1: relativity at all. Generalativity tells us about space and time

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Speaker 1: and gravity, and that's it. I mean, that's a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff, but that's it all right. So then what

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Speaker 1: do you mean by how that this theory might be wrong? Like,

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Speaker 1: what would it mean for iSight to be wrong? Well,

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Speaker 1: one way for theory to be wrong is for it

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Speaker 1: to make an incorrect prediction. Right If I say, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm fifty years old, and from zero to fifty I've

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Speaker 1: grown about a meter and a half. So therefore in

444
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 1: my next fifty years, I'm also going to grow a

445
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: meter and a half. That's a prediction. It's dumb, obviously,

446
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: and it's going to be disproven if I live another

447
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: fifty years and measure my height. So that's a theory

448
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: that can be proven wrong. Right, So if Einstein's theory

449
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: makes a prediction and that isn't born out by reality,

450
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: we do experiments that show that his predictions are wrong,

451
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: that's a scenario where we would say Einstein was wrong.

452
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: How Else, there's a sort of philosophical sense in which

453
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: Einstein could be wrong, which is all these theories of

454
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: physics are telling us the story. They're an explanation, and

455
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: all of our explanations in the end are scientific stories

456
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: about what's happening, like why is the Earth moving this way?

457
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: It's moving this way because of the curvature of space time.

458
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: But those stories involve things we can't see, Like we

459
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: can't directly observe the curvature of space time, we can't

460
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: directly see electric fields. These stories always involve invisible things

461
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: that we can't detect directly. And so then we wonder like, well,

462
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: what if those stories are wrong? Do they actually describe

463
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: reality what's really happening? Or are they just sort of

464
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 1: like the stories we're telling. Even if they predict all

465
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: the experiments correctly, could they still be sort of philosophically wrong?

466
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 8: Is it sort of like, you know, how we thought

467
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 8: Newton was right for a long time, and it worked

468
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 8: to describe the motion of baseballs and billard balls and

469
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 8: you know, the orbits of the planets, but it's not

470
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 8: really right. At the end of the.

471
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: Day, exactly, we don't think that Newton's story is correct.

472
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 1: Newton's explanation for billiard balls and planets is not what's

473
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 1: actually happening, right, and so Newton can't be right. And

474
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: so in that sense we wonder, like, well, if it's

475
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 1: not really philosophically true, is it possible that sometime in

476
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: the future, maybe not today, maybe well beyond our current capabilities,

477
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: that Einstein's theory could be proven wrong in some deep

478
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: future experiment. If it's fundamentally not described in the nature

479
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: of the universe, it might be possible to find a

480
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: way to prove that.

481
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 8: Well, apparently there's a whole cottage industry of people trying

482
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 8: to prove Einstein wrong, or have been many experiments, a

483
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 8: lot of different theories just trying to bring the man down.

484
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 8: And so let's dig into that and how exactly general

485
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 8: relativity is wrong. But first, let's take a quick break.

486
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,679
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Speaker 8: All right, we're talking about how general relativity might be wrong,

547
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 8: might be or is wrong.

548
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it is wrong. I mean, we don't

549
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: know for sure, but if I had the place a

550
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: bet I put my money on Einstein is wrong?

551
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 8: Are you taking bets? Is there a pool online that

552
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 8: I can sign up for?

553
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 1: Or you want to bet against me?

554
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 8: Is you're betting against Einstein? I don't know who has

555
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 8: the better hair? You're Einstein.

556
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: Einstein is many things I aspire to, especially this hair

557
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: was almost there yet. I know I'm not there yet.

558
00:27:59,480 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 8: You could die.

559
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: I guess who dyes their hair white?

560
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 8: I don't know. Yeah, you could be the first person.

561
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think dan Quayle died his temple's great to

562
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: get a little bit more gravitas. There you go, But

563
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: I prefer the youthful look. I see, I see, I'm

564
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: no longer mistaken for a grad student in my department.

565
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 8: You don't need great hair in a while. You don't

566
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 8: need gravitas to prove grat gravity is wrong.

567
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 1: No, apparently you don't even need gray hairs. You just

568
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: need a great idea.

569
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 8: That is a grave bar too to pass.

570
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 12: Well.

571
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 8: It sounds like a lot of people are trying, or

572
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 8: have been trying to prove einsign wrong, or at least

573
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 8: they've been trying to make sure his theory is right.

574
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 8: I guess maybe is that a better way to put it?

575
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have been trying to verify Einstein's theory, or

576
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: at least to check it or to see if it's wrong.

577
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: Because Einstein's theory of gravity doesn't just replace Newton's gravity,

578
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: it changes it. It makes different predictions from Newton's theory, and

579
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: that allows us to test it, to look for those

580
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: very specific predictions, those consequences of gravity actually being a

581
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: curvature of space time and not a force between two masses.

582
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: So for the last one hundred years or so, we've

583
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: been doing those tests.

584
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, doing those tests and also making observations about the

585
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 8: universe right as a way to test the theory.

586
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. One way to look for new stuff is

587
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: just like build a new telescope, look deep into the universe,

588
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: wait for surprises. Another very very valuable way to discover

589
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: new stuff is to make very high precision tests of

590
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: your theory. You know, if your theory makes a very

591
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: specific prediction about what's going to happen, then go out

592
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: and do an experiment that's really really precise and check it.

593
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: Because if there's a small discrepancy, that's a hint maybe

594
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: this is something new going on, there's something wrong with

595
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: your theory or some piece of it you haven't accounted for.

596
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: We do that all the time. In particle physics, for example,

597
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: we measure the mass of something super duper precisely and

598
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: see if the theory predicts it. Measure the interaction of

599
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: some particle really really precisely, and see if the theory

600
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: predicts it correctly.

601
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 8: All right, well, what are some of the ways in

602
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 8: which we've tested Einstein theories.

603
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: Well, one of the early successes was understanding the orbit

604
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: of mercury. You know, the planets orbit the Sun, and

605
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: in Newtonian physics, this is because there's a force there,

606
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: and Newton and Kepler were able to even describe not

607
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: just the circular motion of the planet, but the elliptical

608
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: motion of the planets. Right. The planets don't orbit in

609
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: perfect circles. They orbit in ellipses. But that's okay. In

610
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: Newtonian mechanics, you can have an elliptical orbit that's stable.

611
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 5: Right.

612
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: The Sun pulls on things, and then it goes faster when

613
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: it's closer and slower when it's further away. The math

614
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: all works out, but an ellipse has a direction to it. Right,

615
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: there's a bit of the ellipse that's longer and a

616
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,239
Speaker 1: bit of the ellipse that's shorter, and procession means that

617
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: that ellipse is turning like the direction that the ellipse

618
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: is longer and the pointy bits of the football is turning.

619
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: So that's what we call that the procession of the ellipse,

620
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: and Newton can also predict that procession. But what we

621
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: discussed is that the procession of the orbit of Mercury

622
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: was a little bit different from what Newton predicted, and

623
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: Einstein's theory predicted it correctly because it's a different story

624
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: about how gravity works.

625
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 8: But wait, why mercury, Like, what's different about mercury.

626
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: Well, Mercury is closest to the Sun. And one of

627
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: the crucial differences between Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity is what

628
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: happens when something is spinning. Like Newton says, if an

629
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: object has mass, then you're going to feel it's gravity,

630
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter if it's spinning. Take a sphere

631
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: of mass, if it's spinning or not, Newton says, it

632
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: has the same gravity. It doesn't matter if it's spinning,

633
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: if it's a perfect sphere, because you always have masses

634
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: in the same place. But Einstein says it does matter

635
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: because Einstein's theory responds not just to the presence of

636
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: mass but energy, and something that's spinning has a different

637
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: energy than something that isn't spinning, and it actually twists

638
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: space time a little bit in a way that twists

639
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: things nearby, gives them little twists. So the Sun is

640
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: giving a little torque to Mercury's procession, according to Einstein

641
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: and not to Newton, and that little torque was enough

642
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: to explain the deviation in the orbit of Mercury.

643
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 8: WHOA, but you wouldn't feel this here on Earth.

644
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: It's a much smaller effect as you get further and

645
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: further away. But we've actually measured this ourselves. We've put

646
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: super precise satellites in orbit around the Earth to detect

647
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: the effect of the Earth spinning on stuff in orbit

648
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: around the Earth. We had an episode about gravity Probe B,

649
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: which involves these incredible gyroscopes, which are the smoothest objects

650
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: known to man. These like incredible balls of quartz mined

651
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: in Brazil and polished by Grammas in Germany until they're

652
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: like incredibly sphiraical so that they're super precise, and they

653
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: have detected the same thing around the orbit of the Earth.

654
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 8: Whoa, that's another way in which we've proven that Einstein

655
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 8: was right.

656
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. All of these experiments and some of these

657
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: like they take decades to develop to make so precise,

658
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: and they always come out bang on Einstein's per it's

659
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: kind of infuriating. What do you mean infuriating, Well, we

660
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: think Einstein is wrong, and so it's frustrating to not

661
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: be able to prove it right. As soon as we

662
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: find an example where Einstein is wrong, that's a thread

663
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: we can pull on. We can say, Okay, here we go,

664
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: here's the lead. The thing is, we think Einstein was

665
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: probably wrong, but we don't know how to improve his theory,

666
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: and until we find a place to where it fails,

667
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: it's difficult to know how to proceed.

668
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 8: So in the gravity of things and how spinning things

669
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 8: affect gravity, because Einstein predicted that it.

670
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: Would, right, Einstein predicted that it would.

671
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 8: So something that's spinning has more gravity to it, Like

672
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 8: if the Earth was spinning faster, we'd all be heavier.

673
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: It's not just more gravity, right. Newton's equation is one equation.

674
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: It's a single force equation. It tells you the magnitude

675
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: of the force and the direction of it. But Einstein's

676
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: equation is a tenser equation. It's like a big matrix

677
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: of equations and tells you gravity is much more complicated

678
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: than just like a force and a direction. Also apply

679
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: a torque. There's all sorts of complicated things. So it's

680
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: not just about more gravity, it's about what that gravity

681
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: is doing.

682
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 8: But is that true? If the Earth was spinning faster,

683
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 8: I would be heavier.

684
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: If the Earth was spinning faster, the Earth would be

685
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 1: twisting you a little bit. It wouldn't necessarily make you heavier,

686
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: it'd be spinning you.

687
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 13: Oh.

688
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 8: But then you say, like it affects the gravity, like

689
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 8: it maybe increases the gravity of the Earth.

690
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true. Because the overall energy is higher,

691
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: then you would get more curvature. But also that curvature

692
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: is more complicated, so it induces a little torque on

693
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: objects nearby.

694
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 8: M there's so sort of like a little eddy current

695
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 8: in gravity.

696
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 5: Right.

697
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: This is called frame dragging. Check out our episodes about

698
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: that if you want more details.

699
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 8: Yeah, what are some of the other ways in which

700
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 8: people have tested Einstein?

701
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: So a lot of these tests we just described are

702
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: sort of weak field gravity gravity in places where space

703
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: is curved, but not like dramatically curved. One of the

704
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: really dramatic predictions of Einstein's theory is that space can

705
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: curve incredibly powerfully. You can curve and create things like

706
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: black holes. And for a long time people thought, well,

707
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: that's obviously wrong, right, that's ridiculous. But then we went

708
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: out and we saw black holes in the universe. And

709
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: so the fact that black holes exist is that there's

710
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: an event horizon beyond which information cannot escape, is a

711
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: direct prediction of general relativity, not of Newtonian physics, and

712
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: something we've seen in the universe but.

713
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 8: We think we've seen.

714
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 5: Right.

715
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 8: Then we talk about before how nobody has actually technically

716
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 8: seen a black hole or confirmed its existence.

717
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an important caveat right, We've seen things that

718
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: are very consistent with black holes. There are some alternative

719
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: theories dark stars, boson stars, fuzzy string balls, et cetera,

720
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: et cetera. The most mainstream interpretation of those is that

721
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: they are black holes. They're totally consistent with black holes.

722
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: But you're right, we've never actually confirmed the existence of

723
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: an event horizon in the universe.

724
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 8: Right, or what's inside of it, right.

725
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, or what's inside of it.

726
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 8: But we have to sort of used black holes in

727
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 8: prove that the gravitational waves exist, which is part of

728
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 8: Eystein's theory, right exactly.

729
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: Another important distinction between Einsteinian and Newtonian gravity is that

730
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: gravity takes time, that information is not instantly propagated in

731
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: the universe. Newton says, if you delete the Sun from

732
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: the universe, it's gravity disappears instantly. But Einstein's been a

733
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about how information is propagated. He

734
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: developed the theory of special relativity, and so in general

735
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: relativity he accounts for this. He says that it takes

736
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: time for gravitational information to propagate, and that propagates via

737
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: gravitational waves. So you take a black hole, for example,

738
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: or even a sun or a big rock and you

739
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: wiggle it. Then the curvature it's causing wiggles as you

740
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: wiggle the rock. You can detect this if you have

741
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: really big sources of gravitational waves, like black holes eating

742
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: each other as they spiral around each other, they make

743
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 1: these gravitational waves and we've detected them. This is another

744
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: crazy prediction that I personally thought would never be borne out.

745
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: But again due to like amazing tech nicol and experimental

746
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: and bravado, they figured out how to see these things

747
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: and we've confirmed them and the predictions are bang on

748
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: Einstein's calculations.

749
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's some amazing engineering going on there, right.

750
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: It really is impressive.

751
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 8: They probably deserve their retirements.

752
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,439
Speaker 1: Well, they definitely deserve the Nobel Prizes that they won

753
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: for it. I was thinking about where to go to

754
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: grad school in the late nineties and thinking about, you know,

755
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: particle physics at Berkeley or gravitational waves at Caltech, and

756
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: I definitely chose particle physics at Berkeley because I thought

757
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: they would never see those gravitational waves. I thought it

758
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: was crazy.

759
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 8: And you could own part of a Nobel Prize right

760
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 8: now had you chosen another.

761
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: Path, absolutely, you know, have the path not taken.

762
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 8: But instead now they are retired engineers who have part

763
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 8: of a Nobel Prize, but you don't.

764
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But you know, there's another version of that

765
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: story where I did join the project and I messed

766
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: it all up and they never discovered gravitation. Oh yeah,

767
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: so maybe I was doing everybody a favor by staying

768
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: out of it.

769
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 8: That's right. You get account for all possibilities.

770
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: I'm what I'm saying is I get to share that

771
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: Nobel Prize by not messing it up.

772
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 8: Really, Daniel done, so does everybody else who's ever existed.

773
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: I mean we're always saying everybody is a scientist, right,

774
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: so shouldn't we all reap the benefits?

775
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 8: Well, I think we all get the benefits, but not

776
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 8: necessarily the credit or the not credit for not getting

777
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 8: the way.

778
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many discoveries out there that I

779
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: didn't mess up. I don't know why I'm not getting

780
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: credit for that.

781
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 8: I know there should be just a prize just for you.

782
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 8: They should thank.

783
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: Me every year. Thank you Daniel for not being involved

784
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: and not messing this one up.

785
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 8: That's right. The Daniel Whitson ignored us a price.

786
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But anyway, it's an incredible accomplishment. Nobel Prize

787
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: is very well deserved.

788
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

789
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 8: And so that's one way in which we confirm general relativity, right,

790
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 8: because you can only get gravitational waves with general relativity,

791
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,479
Speaker 8: or is there another explanation for them?

792
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: There's no other explanation for gravitational waves, I mean, other

793
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: variations of general relativity that we might talk about, you know,

794
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: ways to build on general relativity, But you can't get

795
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: gravitational waves in Newtonian gravity. You need the curvature of

796
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: space time and general relativity to have that prediction.

797
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 8: All right, So that's another box that general relativity checked.

798
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 8: What are some of the other boxes that it has

799
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 8: passed well?

800
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: Affects like gravitational lensing because space is curved when light

801
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: passes through it, it follows that curvature and so light

802
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: moving around really massive objects doesn't move and what looks

803
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: like a straight line to us. If we're far away

804
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: and we can see this in the sky, we can

805
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: see light bending around invisible dark matter and creating distortions

806
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: in background galaxies. This effect occurs all over the place

807
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: in the sky, and it's been confirmed many many times,

808
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: So we definitely know that light is curved as it

809
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: passes through Bend space.

810
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 8: This is an interesting one because I feel like anyone

811
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 8: can and confirm and look out there into the universe

812
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 8: to do this right, Like you don't need to build

813
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 8: a super special satellite or a super giant detector, Like

814
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 8: you could just look out into this into space and

815
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 8: confirm that space is being bent out there.

816
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure you could do it with like

817
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: a backyard telescope. You need sort of precise measurements.

818
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 8: But you haven't seen my backyard.

819
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: Then retired engineers have a lot of disposable income and

820
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: maybe they have really fancy telescopes in their backyard.

821
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 8: But yeah, you can see or like, you know, you

822
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 8: could go to a local observatory maybe, yeah, or a

823
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 8: big one and like you can step right up to

824
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 8: the lens and take.

825
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: A look right exactly. Sometimes you can see galaxies duplicated,

826
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: like the same galaxy in two places in the sky

827
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: because photons from that galaxy bend around some object and

828
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: appear to be coming from two different directions. You can

829
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: see what it's called an Einstein cross, effectively like an

830
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: optical distortion of our vision because of this curvature. So yeah,

831
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: you can just look through a telescope and you can

832
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: see gravitational lensing.

833
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 8: Now, and now this is significant because it basically shows

834
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 8: that light is affected by gravity, which is significant because

835
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 8: light doesn't have any mass, right, yeah, so it wouldn't, nominally,

836
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 8: according to Newton, feel a force of gravity, that's right,

837
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 8: and yet it's being pulled and pushed by the mass

838
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 8: of other objects.

839
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: Exactly because it's moving through that curved space, and masses

840
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 1: bend space and everything moves through that curved space.

841
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 8: Although doesn't it also maybe depend on what you mean

842
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 8: by mass, Like if you mean any kind of energy

843
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 8: is massed, then could that also explain the curvature of

844
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 8: light without general relativity? You know, like let's say a

845
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 8: photon doesn't have any mass in the traditional sense, but

846
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 8: it has energy.

847
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: To it it does. Yeah.

848
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 8: Yeah, And now let's say that I call mass something

849
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 8: different like mass now not just the mass we used

850
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 8: to call mass, but also energy like the energy of

851
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 8: photon might have, and then it feels from gravity because

852
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 8: of this energy mass. Couldn't I also maybe explain the

853
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 8: curvature of light with Newtonian physics?

854
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 5: Oh?

855
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: I see? Could you make some sort of like Newtonian

856
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: version of gravity where you generalize it from just mass

857
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: to energy and say, you know, the Whoregey theory of

858
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: gravity is that there's a force between objects with energy,

859
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: not just with mass.

860
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 8: Yes, the Whoregey theory of light and gravity future novel

861
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 8: prize winning theory.

862
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you can do that, and people have

863
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: actually tried to do this to build like a bridge

864
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: between Newtonian and Einsteinian theories. One thing we do when

865
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: we come up with a brand new theory is we

866
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: try to understand, like, is the old theory a special

867
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: case of this new theory. How do they fit together?

868
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: Is one at generalization of the other one? And so

869
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: people have actually gone back and tried to like patch

870
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: these things together and say, could you go from Newtonian

871
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: physics to einstein and physics using that direction to avoid

872
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: the interpretation of curvature. And there are some effects that

873
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: you can can get right. For example, you can describe

874
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: how light bends using this apparent force between energy rather

875
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: than a force between mass. But you can't get all

876
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: the details right of the curvature of space time. There's

877
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: more information in there in the metric and the curvature

878
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,439
Speaker 1: of space time that can just be described by the force.

879
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: It's sort of like a richer theory.

880
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 8: I see. So I guess what I was trying to

881
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 8: get to is that, you know, gravitational lensing is a

882
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 8: test of gravity, but it's not like a slam dunk

883
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 8: case of gravity right of general relativity exactly.

884
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: You can add bells and whistles to Newton's theory to

885
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: make gravitational lensing happen.

886
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it's called the bells and Whistles theory of

887
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 8: the universe, the B and W. All right, well, let's

888
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 8: get into how else we know that general relativity is wrong,

889
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 8: and let's talk about how it's wrong and where we

890
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 8: think it might finally break. So let's stick into that.

891
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 8: But first let's take another quick break.

892
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: We're just days away from our twenty twenty four iHeartRadio

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Speaker 2: Music Festival, preceded by Capitol On the.

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895
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896
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899
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,120
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900
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Speaker 6: Year this Friday and Saturday, starting at ten thirty pm

902
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Speaker 6: Eastern seven thirty Pacific.

903
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: Hi.

904
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 14: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

905
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 14: hit the number one science podcast in America. I mean

906
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 14: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

907
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 14: three pound universe.

908
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 1: In our heads.

909
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 14: We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this

910
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 14: season to understand why and how our lives look the

911
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 14: way they do. Why does your memory drift so much?

912
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 14: Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When

913
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 14: should you not trust your intuition? Why do brains so

914
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 14: easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love

915
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 14: conspiracy theories. I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because

916
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 14: the more we know about what's running under the hood,

917
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 14: the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly

918
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,720
Speaker 14: to explore the relationship between your brain and your life

919
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 14: by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with

920
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 14: David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

921
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 14: you get your podcasts.

922
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 5: Guess what, Mango? What's that?

923
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 15: Well, so iHeart is giving us a whole minute to

924
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 15: promote our podcast, part time genius.

925
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 5: I know.

926
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 16: That's why I spent my whole week composing a haikup

927
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 16: for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting

928
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 16: over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House.

929
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 15: Mega Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there.

930
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: Why don't we just tell people.

931
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 5: About our show instead?

932
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 16: Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Fartime Genius,

933
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 16: we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions,

934
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 16: things like when did America start dialing nine one?

935
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: One?

936
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 16: Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto?

937
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 5: Also?

938
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 15: What happened to Esperanto? Plus we cover questions like how

939
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 15: Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay

940
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 15: in business? And of course is there an Illuminati of cheese?

941
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 16: There absolutely is, and we are risking our lives by

942
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 16: talking about it. But if you love mind blowing facts,

943
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 16: incredible history and really bad jokes, make your brains happy

944
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 16: and tune into Part Time Genius.

945
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 15: Listen to Part Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or

946
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 15: wherever you get your podcasts.

947
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 17: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. If you follow me

948
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Speaker 17: on social media, you know I love to cook, or

949
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Speaker 17: and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty hoych Alison Roman,

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Speaker 17: and of course Ina Garten and Martha Stewart. So I

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Speaker 17: started a free newsletter called Good Taste that comes out

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Speaker 17: every Thursday, and it's serving up recipes that will make

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961
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963
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964
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965
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966
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 8: All right, We're talking about general relativity, the big theory

967
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 8: that Eesein came up with. The talks about gravity and

968
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 8: how space can bend and how space time gets bent

969
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 8: by things like mass and energy, and how it might

970
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 8: be wrong. Although it seems pretty right from all the

971
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 8: experiments we've.

972
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: Done so far, it's been endlessly vindegated, which is frustrating

973
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 1: because I'm pretty sure it's wrong.

974
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 8: What are you so short?

975
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: Even though every test we've done has confirmed Einstein's prediction.

976
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 1: We think that there are scenarios where it must break down.

977
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: Not tests we can do today, but test we can

978
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: imagine with thought experiments, places in the universe where we

979
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: think Einstein's theory can't be right.

980
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 8: Interesting, So you're saying, like, it's as right as far

981
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 8: as we know and the phenomena we've seen, but there

982
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 8: might be situations where it breaks down.

983
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: We think that there are situations where it has to

984
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: be wrong, even though we haven't yet been able to

985
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: engineer any of those situations in the lab to prove it.

986
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 1: But there are sort of thought experiments or future experiments

987
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: we can predict or places in the universe where we

988
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: think it's got to be wrong.

989
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 8: Oh interesting, all right, well let's step through these scenarios.

990
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 8: What are these places?

991
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, when was the scenario you brought up earlier,

992
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: like what happened between two electrons? What is the gravitational

993
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: force between two electrons? Because electrons are not just like

994
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: tiny little versions of planets. They're not just like small

995
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: planets with tiny little masses in them where you can

996
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: apply Newtonian physics or think about the curvature of space.

997
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: They're fundamentally different from planets. They're probabilistic. We know that

998
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: electrons are quantum objects. They don't have a definitive location.

999
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: They have a probability for being here and a probability

1000
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: for being there. They can interfere with each other, and

1001
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: Einstein's theory doesn't account for that. It doesn't allow for that.

1002
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: It says, look, things have locations, and those locations determine

1003
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: how space curves. So we don't know what to do

1004
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: when things don't have locations. Do space curve randomly? The

1005
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: space curve probabilistically? What's going on?

1006
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 8: But other theories can can deal with that, like could

1007
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 8: neat and handle a quantum object?

1008
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 12: No.

1009
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: Newton's theory also requires you to know where something is,

1010
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: Like if you're going to feel the force of gravity

1011
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: from an electron, you got to know how far away

1012
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: it is and in what direction. If an electron like

1013
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: could be to your left and could be to your right,

1014
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: then what gravity are you feeling? Are you feeling gravity

1015
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: to the left, are you feeling gravity to the right?

1016
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,919
Speaker 1: Are you feeling fifty to fifty gravity to the left

1017
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: and right? So it cancels itself out, Like Newton also

1018
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: doesn't know what to do in that situation.

1019
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 8: Wait, what, so then how do you do anything with

1020
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 8: quantum mechanics, Like how do you how do you compute

1021
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 8: the path of an electron?

1022
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, mostly we ignore gravity. Like when we compute the

1023
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: path of an electron or electrons interacting, we assume that

1024
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: there's no gravity. We do those all in flat space.

1025
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 8: But then how do you how do you, like, if

1026
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 8: another electron pushes it or pulls it, how do you

1027
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 8: make that calculation of where it's going to go?

1028
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: Well, we just assume that there is no gravity, and

1029
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: we do the quantum mechanical version of things because all

1030
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: the other forces pushing and the pulling of electromagnetism that

1031
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: allows for this probabilistic stuff. We have a quantum theory

1032
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: of electromagnetic forces, and a quantum theory of the strong

1033
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 1: force and the weak force. All the forces in the

1034
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: universe we can describe using quantum mechanics, and those quantum

1035
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: descriptions can totally accommodate these sort of probabilities and interference.

1036
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 8: And it just lets you compute, like the arc or

1037
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 8: trajectory of an electron.

1038
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: It lets you compute the probability of various outcomes. Absolutely,

1039
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: so quantum mechanics is totally cool with that. And when

1040
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: we do that, we have to ignore gravity. You might ask, well,

1041
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: how can you get the right answer if you're ignoring gravity. Well,

1042
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: gravity is super duper weak. It's so much weaker than

1043
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: any of these other forces, so it's basically negligible. Like

1044
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: we couldn't actually even measure the mass of an electron

1045
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: using gravity. We talked recently on the podcast about like

1046
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: the smallest thing we've ever measured the gravity for. It

1047
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: was like around a kilogram or a little bit smaller.

1048
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: You know, zillions and zillions of atoms, So we can't

1049
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: detect the gravity these particles. We just ignore it in

1050
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: our calculations for particle physics because we also don't know

1051
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: how to do those calculations.

1052
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 8: But I wonder if you mean, like only at the

1053
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 8: micro scopic level, Like, for example, can I treat an

1054
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 8: electron as a little point particle like a little tiny

1055
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 8: baseball and throw it at the Earth. Wouldn't even like

1056
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 8: Newtonian physics tell me at least the most likely path

1057
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 8: that electron is going to take.

1058
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, you can do those calculations, And we actually

1059
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: do those calculations when we think about like the atmosphere.

1060
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: How much atmosphere are we losing, Well, it depends on

1061
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: the velocity and the gravity of the atoms in the

1062
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: upper atmosphere. We lose more hydrogen and helium than the

1063
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: heavier elements because they have more gravity. The Earth is

1064
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: pulling on them harder. But there we're doing a classical calculation.

1065
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: We're ignoring the quantum nature of those objects. Whenever the

1066
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: quantum nature is relevant, gravity becomes irrelevant. And that's one

1067
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: of the frustrating things about testing Einstein's theory is that

1068
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: it's mostly irrelevant in places where we think it's going

1069
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: to fail. Like we think that Einstein's theory breaks down

1070
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 1: for quantum particles, but it's also irrelevant for quantum particles

1071
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: because quantum particles have almost no mass.

1072
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 8: Well, I think what you're saying is that it does

1073
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 8: work for quantum particles, just not at a certain level. Right, Like,

1074
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 8: you can use general relativity and Newtonian physics on an

1075
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 8: electron to predict whether it's going to leave the Earth

1076
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 8: or not, or what path is going to take around

1077
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 8: the Earth, but when you get down to the microscopic level,

1078
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 8: you don't know what to do.

1079
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, when the quantum nature of those particles is important,

1080
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: general relativity breaks down. We don't know what to do

1081
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: with it there, and that's exactly where we also can't

1082
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: detect the effects of general relativity. If you ignore the

1083
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 1: quantum nature of the electron or the atom, then yes,

1084
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: you can use general relativity or even Newtonian physics to

1085
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: predict the path of the particle. But when the quantum

1086
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: nature is important, that's when it breaks down, and that's

1087
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: when we can't detect the effects of general relativity.

1088
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 8: All right, well, what are some of the other extreme

1089
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 8: situations where you think icent theory might be wrong.

1090
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: The other famous concern, and the one that Listeners raised,

1091
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 1: is singularities inside a black hole. General relativity tells us

1092
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: that the things that fall past the event horizon slide

1093
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: towards the center of the black hole, where curvature gets

1094
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: stronger and stronger, and it gets so strong that essentially

1095
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: it's a runaway effect and becomes infinitely dense. You have

1096
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: this point in space where you have mass but zero volume,

1097
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 1: and so we call that a singularity because the density

1098
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: is essentially infinite or undefined. So that's the prediction of

1099
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: general relativity. But most people think that that's not really

1100
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: a prediction. That's a sign that the theory is broken.

1101
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: It's predicting something we think is unphysical and it has

1102
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: to be replaced by another theory. That we've gone beyond

1103
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: the boundary of where the theory is valid. Just like

1104
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 1: me predicting that I'll grow another meter and a half

1105
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: in the next half of my life.

1106
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 8: What do you mean, Like you're saying that the idea

1107
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 8: of a singularity is the prediction of general relativity. Exactly,

1108
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 8: which is at the center of a black hole?

1109
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's what general relativity tells us is at

1110
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: the center of a black hole. But we don't believe it.

1111
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: We don't think it's actually there. We think it's a

1112
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: sign that general relativity is wrong, that we've pushed it

1113
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: beyond the bounds where you can no longer really use

1114
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: the theory.

1115
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 8: But why not, Why couldn't you have some point something

1116
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 8: in the center of a black hole.

1117
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: Well, one reason is quantum mechanics. Right, if something becomes

1118
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: that small, then its quantum properties are important because quantum

1119
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 1: mechanics rules when things are super dup or small. Everything

1120
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: in the universe that super tiny follows the rules of

1121
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, and quantum mechanics says you can't have something

1122
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: so massive, so much energy in such a tiny little space,

1123
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: as like an inherent fuzziness to the universe that a

1124
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: singularity violates. And so if we could look inside a

1125
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 1: black hole and see what's there. Is it a singularity,

1126
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: is it something else, a weird quantum fuzzy blob, is

1127
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: it something completely different, then we would know how to

1128
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: update and correct general relativity, But of course we can't.

1129
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 8: But isn't it sort of the same as like an electron.

1130
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 8: Like an electron you can treat as a point particle,

1131
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 8: which is also an impossibility. And yet do you still

1132
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 8: assume that in quantum mechanics.

1133
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 1: In sort of old school quant mechanics, we do treat

1134
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: the electron as a point particle, and that's valid in

1135
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: some scenarios right where it doesn't really matter. But you're right,

1136
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: if you zoom in on the electron, it can't actually

1137
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: be a point particle. And if you do quantum field theory,

1138
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: then you replace this idea of a point particle with

1139
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: like a little blob of energy density in the quantum

1140
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: field of the electron. And so we have like different

1141
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: pictures for sort of different scales of work in particle physics.

1142
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: But you're right, from some points of view, the point

1143
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 1: particle description works just fine. And so if like from

1144
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: the outside of a black hole, having a singularity on

1145
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: the inside is okay. But once you zoom in on it,

1146
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: once you get in and observe the quantum details of it,

1147
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: we're wondering like, is it really a singularity or is

1148
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 1: it something else? And that would be a deviation from

1149
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 1: Einstein's prediction. If it's not a singularity, then that would

1150
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: be a clue something we could pull on to help

1151
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 1: unravel or update Einstein's theory.

1152
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 8: Well, I feel like in this case you're not. It

1153
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 8: wouldn't prove that Eesein was wrong. It's just that at

1154
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 8: that level you have to use a different set of ru.

1155
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. It's not showing Einstein it

1156
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: is wrong. It's showing that his theory is valid only

1157
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 1: under certain circumstances. And that's cool. It's like saying, you know,

1158
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: as fluid mechanics wrong, Well, it works great for fluids.

1159
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 1: You can't apply it to like crowds or to steam

1160
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: or crystals. Doesn't mean it's wrong. It means that it's

1161
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: relevant to a certain set of conditions. And so that's

1162
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: sort of the question we were asking philosophically, Like, if

1163
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: Einstein's theory of gravity is deeply true, it's the actual

1164
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: story of what the universe is doing, then it should

1165
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: always be right. But if it's just an approximation, if

1166
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: it's just something that works under some certain conditions like

1167
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: fluid mechanics, then you know, it's just a story we're

1168
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: telling ourselves that helps us do calculations. It might not

1169
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: be like the actual story of the universe if there

1170
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: are bounds on where it's relevant.

1171
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 8: Or I wonder if another possibilities that it is right

1172
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 8: all the way down to the center of the universe.

1173
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 8: You just have to add quantum mechanics on top, meaning

1174
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 8: that they're each right in their own way.

1175
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they disagree about what happens at the heart

1176
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: of a black hole, right, so they can't both be right.

1177
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 8: I don't know. Maybe they don't disagree.

1178
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: But they do. They disagree. You know, there might be

1179
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: some version of quantum gravity, an extension of Einstein's idea,

1180
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 1: modification of Einstein's ideas that describes more accurately what's going

1181
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: on inside a black hole. But if there's no singularity there,

1182
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: then Einstein's prediction is wrong.

1183
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 8: Well, as a particle physicist and a quantum mechanic person,

1184
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 8: I would say, maybe you're a little biased.

1185
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sure, I believe it all right.

1186
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 8: What are some of the other situations where you think

1187
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 8: Einstein might be wrong?

1188
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: Well, another famous singularity is the Big Bang. You know,

1189
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: if you take the universe as we see it, it's

1190
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 1: sort of cold and dilute, but we see that it's expanding.

1191
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: Then you rewind the clock back to the early universe.

1192
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: You see the universe getting hotter and hotter and denser

1193
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: and denser and denser, And you could rewind that back,

1194
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: like all the way back to an infinite density, a ularity,

1195
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: a moment when the universe is filled with infinitely dense matter.

1196
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: And I got to clarify, a lot of people think

1197
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: of the Big Bang as like a single point of

1198
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: matter which then exploded out into space. But instead we

1199
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: imagine the Big Bang is something that happened everywhere that

1200
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: the whole universe filled with this incredibly dense matter. So

1201
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: Einstein's theory lets you unwind all the way back to

1202
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: this moment of infinite density, but nobody believes that. People

1203
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: think that, Well, you get back to some hot dense

1204
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: state up to like the Plank temperature, some really hot moment,

1205
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: and beyond that, some quantum effects are going to be relevant.

1206
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: You can't just use general relativity to extrapolate all the

1207
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: way back to infinite.

1208
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 8: Density unless quantum mechanics breaks down at that point. Like

1209
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 8: you're assuming that quantum mechanics is still valid at that point, right.

1210
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And but quant mechanics is another theory that's been

1211
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:53,919
Speaker 1: tested in great detail and very exquisitely, and we think

1212
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: describes the fundamental nature of the universe. So what happens

1213
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: when these two theories come into conflict is the big question.

1214
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: And so, like inside the heart of a black hole

1215
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: or in the very very early universe, these are the

1216
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: moments when quantum mechanics and general relativity are both relevant.

1217
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: They both have something to say about what happens, and

1218
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: they say different things. And so most people believe, and

1219
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: maybe I'm biased because I'm a part of the physicist,

1220
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: that the universe is quantum mechanical and that general relativity

1221
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: will break down at those moments and will not accurately

1222
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: predict the universe.

1223
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 8: I see by most people you mean you and your friends.

1224
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: Yes, me and the rest of the physicists in the universe.

1225
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: Most people believe that general relativity is wrong, but we

1226
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: haven't proven it. We have not proven it right, It's

1227
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: a belief, it's a theory, it's a speculation.

1228
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 8: Feels a little like faith.

1229
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: Daniel, Well, you know, science is subjective in the sense

1230
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: of like what we try to believe, what we try

1231
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: to prove, what we explore, We have hunches, we have creativity.

1232
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: It's not like science is a process that tells you

1233
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: what to try and what experiments to do, et cetera.

1234
01:00:59,200 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 5: Et cetera.

1235
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: Have have to have ideas and intuition and hunches and creativity,

1236
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: but then you have to listen to the experiments, you know,

1237
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: and so that's what we're waiting for.

1238
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 8: But I guess you would concede that right now. There's

1239
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 8: nothing that maybe would say that one or the other

1240
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 8: is right or wrong. You just feel that one is

1241
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 8: more right than the other.

1242
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have no evidence that Einstein was wrong. We

1243
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 1: just suspect very very strongly that he's got to be

1244
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 1: wrong eventually. But no, we do not have any evidence

1245
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: that Einstein was wrong.

1246
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 8: In fact, it almost seems like you have the evidence

1247
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 8: to the contrary.

1248
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have lots of evidence that he's right. Frustrating

1249
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 1: the huge amounts of evidence that he was right. But

1250
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: under these scenarios that we can't engineer ourselves. We can't

1251
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: look inside a black hole, we can't rewind time to

1252
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: the beginning of the universe. We have a hard time

1253
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: coming up with ways of testing quantum mechanics and gravity.

1254
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: That we did a whole episode about quantum gravity experiments

1255
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: and a tabletop that might be able to break that barrier.

1256
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,919
Speaker 1: Nobody's yet been able to engineer scenario to prove Einstein wrong.

1257
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 8: It kind of feels like a conspiracy theory, Daniel, Is

1258
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 8: that where the queue in q andon comes from? Is

1259
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 8: that doesn't mean quantum Wait?

1260
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: Is Einstein the conspiracy theorist? Or are you saying all

1261
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: particle physics?

1262
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 8: I'm saying maybe quantum mechanics. You can see this is

1263
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 8: the conspiracy theory. That's where the Q and q andon

1264
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 8: comes from.

1265
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: Oh I see quantum anon.

1266
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 8: Yes, Yeah, in fact, even sounds like a particle like

1267
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 8: electron Q and on.

1268
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:30,919
Speaker 1: Oh man, I just broke the conspiracy.

1269
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 8: It's all tied to a secret Cabala physicists.

1270
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, you can make the same

1271
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,520
Speaker 1: arguments in the other direction, right, You could say, like, look,

1272
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics has been proven right through a huge number

1273
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: of experiments, but it conflicts with general relativity the heart

1274
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: of black holes in the early universe, so maybe it's wrong.

1275
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: You could take that entirely other perspective. We have two

1276
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: great theories that disagree, and one of them's got to

1277
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: be wrong.

1278
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 8: Right, I'm just saying I believe that conspiracy starts with

1279
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,959
Speaker 8: a Q, and so that to me is a big hint.

1280
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 8: It sounds like a particle too. All right, Well, what

1281
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 8: does it all mean, Daniel, doesn't mean that we have

1282
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 8: these two titanic gigantic theories about the universe. You're saying

1283
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 8: that the conflict in a lot of situations. So there's

1284
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 8: plenty of scientific evidence that for each of them to

1285
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 8: be both right, but they can't both be right in

1286
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 8: the center of the universe.

1287
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have so many scenarios where we've tested each

1288
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 1: of them individually with great precision, and all the scenarios

1289
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: where both of them should be relevant are scenarios we

1290
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 1: can't engineer or we can't study or are hidden from us,

1291
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 1: so it's endlessly frustrating. But there's a lot of creative

1292
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 1: people out there coming up with ideas for how we

1293
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 1: might be able to test them, new ways to bring

1294
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: these two theories together. It's been one hundred years. We

1295
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 1: haven't figured this out, but we're still working on it.

1296
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: Is it possible they're both right. They can't really both

1297
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: be right because they make different predictions about the same scenarios.

1298
01:03:58,640 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: But they could both be wrong.

1299
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 8: Mmmm.

1300
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: In fact, most likely scenario is that they're both wrong

1301
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: and there's some other deeper theory which tells us a

1302
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: completely different story about the nature of the universe. You know,

1303
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: one of my favorite things about these theories is that

1304
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: they do tell a story. There's an explanation for why

1305
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 1: things happen. But as these theories are replaced by other theories,

1306
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: you get a different story, like, oh, it's not actually

1307
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,439
Speaker 1: fields out there or a curvature of space time, it's

1308
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: something else going on that explains the whole universe. So yeah,

1309
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: I want to be around when we figure that all

1310
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: out and we hear the next story of the true

1311
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 1: nature of the universe.

1312
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 8: Pretty cool. It might be that the universe is made

1313
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 8: out of qnon's man and then hey, it'll turn out

1314
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 8: the Internet was right.

1315
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: M I think it's bigfoot particles.

1316
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 8: Einstein was wrong, Newton was wrong, The Internet was right

1317
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 8: all along.

1318
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: It's all tiny bigfoots of the microscopic scale. Yes, that's right, yeah,

1319
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: pulling and pushing gait. Sasquatch has a Q in it

1320
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: doesn't it?

1321
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 8: Oh it does? Yeah? Oh my, well I also has

1322
01:04:56,120 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 8: an S and a couple of a's details details. Maybe

1323
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 8: Sasquatch is a retired engineer and she'll break the whole

1324
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 8: case open theory. You just have to reapass the fifteen

1325
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 8: minutes Daniel of that email Sasquatch sent you all right, Well,

1326
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 8: we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See

1327
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 8: you next time.

1328
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media,

1329
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Speaker 1: where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter,

1330
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Speaker 1: disc Org, Insta, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and

1331
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Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into

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Speaker 1: How is us dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use

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