WEBVTT - Billy Corgan 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.236 --> 0:00:22.356 In the thirty plus years since Billy Corgan hit it 0:00:22.396 --> 0:00:25.316 big as the lead singer songwriter of the Smashing Pumpkins, 0:00:25.556 --> 0:00:28.436 He's become many things. The owner of the National Wrestling 0:00:28.476 --> 0:00:32.596 Alliance NWA, a father and a husband, and an outspoken 0:00:32.636 --> 0:00:36.396 advocate of free speech through appearances on divisive podcasts hosted 0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:40.676 by Alex Jones, Joe Rogan and Bill Maher, proving to 0:00:40.716 --> 0:00:43.756 be both eloquent and controversial. Corgan is now hosting his 0:00:43.796 --> 0:00:47.076 own long form interview podcast called The Magnificent Others, where 0:00:47.076 --> 0:00:51.036 he interviews music industry heavyweights like Tom Morello, Sharon Osbourne, 0:00:51.076 --> 0:00:54.396 and Gene Simmons. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to 0:00:54.436 --> 0:00:57.556 Billy Corgan about his approach to interviewing, why he rejected 0:00:57.556 --> 0:01:00.676 the alternative music ethos in the nineties, and the subset 0:01:00.716 --> 0:01:07.196 of his fan base that he calls Siamese zombies. This 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:17.196 is broken Record musicians, real conversations. Here's Leah Rose with 0:01:17.236 --> 0:01:19.676 Billy Corgan. You can see the full video of this 0:01:19.756 --> 0:01:23.636 interview on our YouTube page YouTube dot com slash Broken 0:01:23.676 --> 0:01:24.476 Record Podcast. 0:01:25.756 --> 0:01:27.916 So I was thinking about this is actually a really 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:32.356 exciting time to talk to you because I'm super interested 0:01:32.356 --> 0:01:38.756 about your approach to your podcast, and it's especially interesting 0:01:38.796 --> 0:01:41.276 for me because this is actually something I can relate to. 0:01:42.196 --> 0:01:45.476 And you know, I feel like when I talk to musicians, 0:01:46.156 --> 0:01:49.596 I find what they do absolutely extraordinary because I cannot 0:01:49.596 --> 0:01:52.676 do any of it. But this I can sort of, like, 0:01:52.916 --> 0:01:56.396 you know, sort of understand how you might be feeling 0:01:56.436 --> 0:01:59.116 around these things. So I'm really curious about your approach 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:04.236 to interviewing because you've been interviewed for over thirty years now, 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:07.436 So when you decided to take on this project, how 0:02:07.476 --> 0:02:08.956 did you approach it? 0:02:11.756 --> 0:02:15.076 Well, I think the simplest version is I just try 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:17.036 to have the same type of conversation I would have 0:02:17.076 --> 0:02:22.436 with somebody behind the scenes, and of course you're where 0:02:22.476 --> 0:02:24.556 there's a camera and you're of course you're ware of 0:02:24.596 --> 0:02:30.516 the concept of time. But I've seen in some comments. 0:02:30.556 --> 0:02:32.876 I don't really read comments, but people will send me 0:02:33.036 --> 0:02:36.156 things and you get a sense of what's happening. The 0:02:36.196 --> 0:02:39.716 people who do like the format that the show is 0:02:39.756 --> 0:02:43.356 in appreciate that it has a deeper dive sort of feel, 0:02:43.516 --> 0:02:46.116 which I would point to That's the kind of conversation 0:02:46.236 --> 0:02:48.396 I would have with a Diane Warren if we were 0:02:48.516 --> 0:02:51.636 sitting privately somewhere I would be asking the same types 0:02:51.676 --> 0:02:54.476 of questions with the same type of kind of back 0:02:54.516 --> 0:02:57.596 and forth thing. For people who don't understand it, they 0:02:57.636 --> 0:03:01.916 seem to be confused that I'm just after what would 0:03:01.916 --> 0:03:05.196 be called a normal interview format where some of his 0:03:05.396 --> 0:03:09.036 erudite you asked me a question. I just bloviate on 0:03:09.276 --> 0:03:12.756 for four minutes, and some people take the back and 0:03:12.796 --> 0:03:16.436 forth patois the thing is disrespect. It's the complete opposite. 0:03:17.276 --> 0:03:20.396 I really feel that there's so much that gets lost 0:03:20.516 --> 0:03:23.996 in the translation of conversation because I've been interviewed for 0:03:24.076 --> 0:03:28.596 thirty five years now that I'm really after something that's 0:03:28.596 --> 0:03:32.276 almost indefinable. And that's not to say I'm better at 0:03:32.276 --> 0:03:35.276 it than anybody else. In fact, I'm not very skilled 0:03:35.316 --> 0:03:37.956 at it at all. But I have an intuitive sense 0:03:37.996 --> 0:03:42.076 of the way an artist mind works, Yes, even if 0:03:42.076 --> 0:03:45.756 it's not mine, and that's born out over now over 0:03:45.916 --> 0:03:50.716 I think twenty five interviews, there's a commonality in the 0:03:50.756 --> 0:03:54.916 sense of an inner and an outer experience most interviews, 0:03:54.956 --> 0:03:58.196 and it's no disrespect to you or anybody else. They 0:03:58.236 --> 0:04:01.916 focus on the outer experience because that's the thing that's 0:04:01.956 --> 0:04:06.076 readily apparent it's sort of in evidence. The inner life 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:10.116 of an artist is oft less explode but is the 0:04:10.196 --> 0:04:13.956 thing that I find utterly fascinating. For example, on this 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:17.116 interview that I just did with Diane Warren and for 0:04:17.156 --> 0:04:20.996 people don't know, one of the greatest songwriters ever, nine 0:04:21.036 --> 0:04:24.836 number one hit songs, thirty three top ten songs, and 0:04:24.876 --> 0:04:27.396 the list of people who've recorded her songs, I mean 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:30.156 is a who's who are the greatest vocalists of all time. 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:35.116 It's really a stunning set of accomplishments. And yet if 0:04:35.156 --> 0:04:37.316 you look at the interview record, there's not a lot 0:04:37.356 --> 0:04:39.196 about this woman's interior life. 0:04:39.356 --> 0:04:42.596 Yes, and her interior life is what's fueling her songwriting. 0:04:43.036 --> 0:04:48.476 It's everything. Because she would tell you, as a personality 0:04:48.476 --> 0:04:51.756 in the world that there's nothing particularly remarkable about her, 0:04:52.036 --> 0:04:56.156 I think utterly remarkable. But she even sort of downplays 0:04:56.156 --> 0:04:59.596 who she is. But yet the evidence, which is in 0:04:59.676 --> 0:05:02.596 plain sight, fifteen hundred songs in counting, and by the way, 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:06.196 no sign of letting up. She oh no, heeddle to 0:05:06.276 --> 0:05:12.076 the metal as an artist in in residence. Yeah, I'm like, 0:05:12.516 --> 0:05:15.876 give me even just a kernel of what goes on 0:05:16.036 --> 0:05:21.036 in there that allows this diamond mind of your spirit 0:05:21.516 --> 0:05:26.116 to continually produce works that are not only at the 0:05:26.156 --> 0:05:32.196 top of their particular field, but speak universally yes in 0:05:32.236 --> 0:05:37.396 a way that I've rarely approached as an artist. That's fascinating. 0:05:37.836 --> 0:05:41.196 I could do nineteen hours on that. I mean, it 0:05:41.196 --> 0:05:43.916 would bore the hell out of the audience and it 0:05:43.916 --> 0:05:47.276 would probably bore the hell out of Diane. For me, 0:05:47.516 --> 0:05:49.316 this is everything. 0:05:50.876 --> 0:05:53.356 Do you think as an interviewer. I've heard Terry Gross 0:05:53.396 --> 0:05:56.916 talk about this that in every interview she does, she's 0:05:57.036 --> 0:06:01.796 motivated by learning something new about herself. Do you find 0:06:01.996 --> 0:06:05.316 that through these conversations you're trying to learn about yourself 0:06:05.436 --> 0:06:09.116 or are you truly trying to learn about that specific person, 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:12.836 The person in front of you's inner life and you 0:06:12.876 --> 0:06:14.396 know their creative process. 0:06:15.156 --> 0:06:17.276 One of my great weaknesses is I like to be right. 0:06:19.036 --> 0:06:22.156 It's probably my greatest weakness. So much of the interview 0:06:22.436 --> 0:06:26.076 is me trying to confirm of whether my internal assumptions 0:06:26.236 --> 0:06:29.756 about a set of things is accurate. But the charm 0:06:29.836 --> 0:06:33.556 there because I'm I'm okay with being wrong, because in 0:06:33.596 --> 0:06:36.716 this case I have the subject right in front of 0:06:36.716 --> 0:06:38.796 me to tell me, no, you're wrong, you got that 0:06:38.916 --> 0:06:42.036 totally wrong. It's like, okay, great, because I really do 0:06:42.076 --> 0:06:46.316 want to know that that is the supreme effort is knowledge. 0:06:46.596 --> 0:06:49.956 If anybody knows enneagrams, I'm a five and fives are 0:06:49.996 --> 0:06:53.556 all about collecting information. That's how we feel safe in 0:06:53.596 --> 0:06:56.676 the world. So the more I can kind of confirm 0:06:56.716 --> 0:06:59.956 my worldview, and in this case with you know, people 0:06:59.996 --> 0:07:04.516 of world class talent and ability or life story in 0:07:04.556 --> 0:07:06.636 a weird kind of way, it confirms that my read 0:07:06.676 --> 0:07:10.676 on the world is actually fairly accurate. And as an 0:07:10.796 --> 0:07:13.596 artist type, I've been told my whole life that my 0:07:13.676 --> 0:07:18.316 perspective on the world is either wrong, overly dramatic, overwrought, 0:07:19.116 --> 0:07:21.116 you know, just calm down and just kind of get 0:07:21.156 --> 0:07:24.876 in line type of stuff. But I think has been 0:07:24.876 --> 0:07:26.956 born out over the last twenty or thirty years with 0:07:26.996 --> 0:07:30.276 social media that people's interior lives are actually a lot 0:07:30.316 --> 0:07:34.596 more complex than we would have previously thought in prior societies. 0:07:34.676 --> 0:07:37.196 I mean, there was always indication of it, and of 0:07:37.236 --> 0:07:39.276 course what people would read, whether it would be Hemiway 0:07:39.356 --> 0:07:43.356 or Dickens or you know, Jane Austen or something. You know, 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:46.956 there's obviously rich interior lives, but now it lives on 0:07:47.036 --> 0:07:51.196 continual display Yeah, and maybe we're entering in age now 0:07:51.236 --> 0:07:54.516 and you know, maybe you know the Age of Aquarius 0:07:54.556 --> 0:07:56.636 or something, but we're entering an age now where maybe 0:07:56.636 --> 0:08:00.276 there's going to be more introspection on people's actual internal 0:08:00.316 --> 0:08:03.716 lives or interior lives and how they actually play into 0:08:03.756 --> 0:08:04.516 their behavior. 0:08:05.396 --> 0:08:08.716 That would be nice, I would hope, because I would skeptical, 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:09.836 but that would be nice. 0:08:09.876 --> 0:08:12.236 Well, God blessed, But I would like to make the 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:16.036 simple argument that the more people's interior lives are readily 0:08:16.076 --> 0:08:19.236 available to them, the less violent a planet we would 0:08:19.236 --> 0:08:19.636 live on. 0:08:20.076 --> 0:08:24.156 Yeah. Have you had the experience yet of someone who 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:28.076 cannot be drawn out, someone who doesn't know how to 0:08:28.116 --> 0:08:31.436 explain their inner life, someone who, I know a lot 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:37.876 of artists express their inner lives through their art. Have 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:41.356 you had and you're very eloquent, and you're very eloquent 0:08:41.396 --> 0:08:44.316 about your creative process. Have you sat across from someone 0:08:44.356 --> 0:08:46.876 who just does not know how to explain it? 0:08:47.636 --> 0:08:50.396 Yeah? And I think that's totally fine, because at the 0:08:50.436 --> 0:08:54.396 end of the day, their perspective trump's mind. I'm really 0:08:54.436 --> 0:08:57.556 in service to tell their story, and that's where people 0:08:57.596 --> 0:09:00.916 misunderstand what I'm after. I asked a friend of mine 0:09:01.316 --> 0:09:04.116 who knows me pretty well. Do you think I'm talking 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:06.556 too much? Or you think I'm talking too much about myself? 0:09:06.556 --> 0:09:09.356 And they said, no, No, that's how you are in life, 0:09:09.356 --> 0:09:11.756 and what you do is you create kind of commonality. 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:14.396 And what you're doing is you're sharing because you're trying 0:09:14.396 --> 0:09:17.276 to say I think I understand is what I'm sharing 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:19.756 relate to what you're saying. That made me feel better 0:09:19.796 --> 0:09:22.476 about it, because at times it does feel to me 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:26.516 like I'm talking too much, but I'm really after this 0:09:26.636 --> 0:09:30.436 interior life. Like I said, I find it utterly fascinating. 0:09:30.476 --> 0:09:34.596 And let's use Diane Warren as an example. Diane says 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:36.476 in the interview, like I don't really think about a 0:09:36.476 --> 0:09:38.796 lot of the steps that you're asking me. Yeah, but 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:41.276 there were about two or three instances in the interview, 0:09:41.276 --> 0:09:45.436 which is about an hour long, where she initially kind 0:09:45.436 --> 0:09:47.036 of gives me an answer which says I don't really 0:09:47.036 --> 0:09:49.876 think about that or that's not really I say something, 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:52.396 and then she goes, oh, and then she'll give me 0:09:52.476 --> 0:09:57.996 something that wasn't previously there. To me, that's the AGA 0:09:58.076 --> 0:10:01.196 pay moment of like, Okay, that's exactly what I'm after. 0:10:01.916 --> 0:10:04.516 I'm not asking somebody who doesn't really know me in 0:10:04.556 --> 0:10:06.636 the case Diane, we had met before. But I'm not 0:10:06.676 --> 0:10:10.716 asking someone to walk into a st and throw open 0:10:10.756 --> 0:10:13.356 the door to everything. I don't I think that's really fair. 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:15.996 But if they're willing to just crack that door open 0:10:16.036 --> 0:10:19.116 a little bit here and there, I think. I know 0:10:19.196 --> 0:10:23.436 I gained such immense respect for artists that I already admire. Yes, 0:10:23.476 --> 0:10:27.036 because the ability to look and see that beautiful engine. 0:10:27.556 --> 0:10:30.916 And I know not everybody believes in God, but as 0:10:30.956 --> 0:10:35.356 somebody who does believe in God, I'm oftentimes taken with 0:10:35.436 --> 0:10:39.516 the magisterial aspect of the human soul and how different 0:10:39.596 --> 0:10:41.636 every soul on this planet is. That I would include 0:10:41.636 --> 0:10:44.196 that even into our pets, which is even feels like 0:10:44.196 --> 0:10:47.916 a like an unfair word. You know, in our house 0:10:47.956 --> 0:10:51.396 we have three cats and a dog and two fish. 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:54.756 And if you spend any time with animals in your home, 0:10:54.996 --> 0:10:58.716 of course you see that they have very different personalities. Yeah, 0:10:58.756 --> 0:11:02.116 and they're hardwired in really unique ways. People come to 0:11:02.156 --> 0:11:04.276 our house and they'll say, all your cats are like dogs. 0:11:04.476 --> 0:11:07.076 You know, It's like, so, where does that come from? Anyway? 0:11:07.316 --> 0:11:09.036 I think you understand the point of making. 0:11:09.116 --> 0:11:13.596 Totally Yeah, I was curious, So since in your past 0:11:13.756 --> 0:11:16.596 with press you sort of like fucked with media. In 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:19.356 the beginning of The Pumpkins, I've heard you say that 0:11:19.676 --> 0:11:23.836 it was sort of a performance art project, and a 0:11:23.836 --> 0:11:27.196 lot of times the band would make things up in interviews. 0:11:27.996 --> 0:11:30.556 I'm curious where you stand about sort of like digging 0:11:30.796 --> 0:11:34.836 and creating viral moments to help your show blow up. 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:36.916 You know, it's like a very easy thing. It's a 0:11:36.956 --> 0:11:40.076 cheap thing that you could You could probably do like that. 0:11:40.996 --> 0:11:41.956 What's your take on that. 0:11:43.636 --> 0:11:46.436 I can think of about two or three instances where 0:11:46.876 --> 0:11:50.876 I went down a particular road with an interview subject 0:11:50.956 --> 0:11:54.276 on my show and it was like I played baseball 0:11:54.316 --> 0:11:55.636 as a kid. It was like they threw me a 0:11:55.676 --> 0:11:59.596 spinning curveball and all I had to do was hit it, yeah, 0:12:00.356 --> 0:12:01.876 and it was instant clickbait. 0:12:02.436 --> 0:12:03.676 Can you tell us who? 0:12:04.436 --> 0:12:08.396 I can't remember, honestly, it's just it's just it's an 0:12:08.396 --> 0:12:11.596 internal feel of like, oops, there it is, and all 0:12:11.636 --> 0:12:13.956 I gotta do is ask the follow up question or 0:12:14.036 --> 0:12:15.836 hit this spinning ball in front of my face and 0:12:15.876 --> 0:12:19.076 there's a viral moment totally, And it's like in all 0:12:19.116 --> 0:12:21.196 three instances, I was like Nope. I don't want to 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:23.476 be on that type of show. Yeah, and I don't 0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:26.316 want to do that to my guests. I'm a firm believer, 0:12:27.796 --> 0:12:29.756 and of course the numbers are still out on this, 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:33.036 but I'm a firm believer that we are capable of 0:12:33.076 --> 0:12:37.436 creating a new type of dialogue in American culture. I 0:12:37.476 --> 0:12:39.876 know it won't be for everybody, because we're dealing with 0:12:40.076 --> 0:12:44.276 a massive people who are dopamine addicted, but I do 0:12:44.316 --> 0:12:47.756 believe there's a different type of conversation that can be had. Obviously, 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:49.996 it's the twenty first century version of it, but I 0:12:50.076 --> 0:12:53.276 remember being entranced by conversations when I was a kid 0:12:53.316 --> 0:12:56.436 on TBS where they would just go on for hours 0:12:56.476 --> 0:12:59.836 about really wonky stuff. But if you allow yourself to 0:12:59.836 --> 0:13:03.596 be drawn in, it's this becunded atmosphere of like, wow, 0:13:04.596 --> 0:13:08.556 not everything is yes or no, black or white, win 0:13:08.756 --> 0:13:11.236 loup yes. And I think we live in such a 0:13:11.276 --> 0:13:14.636 bifurcated society right now, where is that tends to be 0:13:14.796 --> 0:13:18.196 the common metric? Yes, so and so on so and 0:13:18.276 --> 0:13:22.236 so lost. A moment that really stands out starkly in 0:13:22.276 --> 0:13:24.996 my mind in American life was I watched one of 0:13:25.036 --> 0:13:29.156 the presidential debates in the last twenty years, and they 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:31.516 went to the you know, the roundtable. I don't remember 0:13:31.516 --> 0:13:34.556 what network, but they went to the roundtable afterwards, and 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:37.916 they were talking about one of the candidate's debate performances. 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:40.876 And in the course of the analysis, the person said, 0:13:41.356 --> 0:13:43.636 I knew they were lying to me, but they did 0:13:43.676 --> 0:13:45.956 such a good job of lying. And I'd have to say, 0:13:45.956 --> 0:13:49.156 they did a great job tonight. And I thought, there's like, 0:13:49.316 --> 0:13:51.796 there's a lightning bolk. I was like, that's it. We 0:13:51.836 --> 0:13:54.756 live in a society now where you're no longer punished 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:59.916 for openly lying. You're rewarded for the artifice of your 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:04.036 capability to lie. And in a post truth world. And 0:14:04.156 --> 0:14:07.356 we've got tremendous artists who've created these avatars that are 0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:10.156 that are world class avatars. I don't need to name 0:14:10.196 --> 0:14:12.796 the names. Mostly they tend to reside in pop stars, 0:14:13.196 --> 0:14:16.556 but they've created these world class avatars that sell perfume 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:22.116 and shoes and dresses and albums and you know, stadiums 0:14:22.116 --> 0:14:25.956 full of people. But I also talked to a lot 0:14:25.956 --> 0:14:29.316 of young kids who are really kind of almost stung 0:14:29.396 --> 0:14:33.596 by it all. It's not even that they dislike the artists. 0:14:34.076 --> 0:14:37.596 But they're almost saying to me, like to quote the 0:14:37.916 --> 0:14:40.996 Peggy League, is that all there is like is me 0:14:41.116 --> 0:14:43.916 as I am, disqualify me from the thing that I 0:14:43.996 --> 0:14:46.916 might want to become. And I went through a very 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:49.276 similar thing. And that goes back to us messing with 0:14:49.316 --> 0:14:52.876 the media. I felt very early on Circuit nineteen eighty 0:14:52.956 --> 0:14:56.156 nine ninety that who I was was not going to work. 0:14:56.876 --> 0:15:01.436 That personality was being rejected. So I created an avatar 0:15:01.516 --> 0:15:05.636 of myself, not to become more attractive, actually to become 0:15:05.636 --> 0:15:10.676 more repulsive. I turned that avatar into a weapon. And 0:15:10.716 --> 0:15:13.436 what's really sort of interesting is that fifty seven years old, 0:15:13.436 --> 0:15:16.676 people are still convinced I'm the avatar, not the person. Yeah, 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:19.796 the person is. I'm not saying I'm not a prickly pair, 0:15:19.916 --> 0:15:23.396 but I'm a well rounded human being, you know, whether 0:15:23.436 --> 0:15:25.836 it's family or charity work and a tea house and 0:15:25.916 --> 0:15:28.596 a wrestling company. There's other sides to me besides this 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:35.516 rock conteur no pun intended, But people are really in 0:15:35.556 --> 0:15:38.316 love with the avatar because it sells stuff, even if 0:15:38.356 --> 0:15:39.796 it's negative clicks. 0:15:40.156 --> 0:15:43.476 Yeah, does the avatar have anything to do with wrestling? 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:47.836 I always saw that as you sort of adopting that 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:53.436 same wrestling entertainment ethos where it's just totally over the top, 0:15:53.716 --> 0:15:57.476 it's shock value. Does it come from that at all? 0:15:57.956 --> 0:16:01.556 It came later from that between from the late eighties 0:16:01.636 --> 0:16:04.876 up until the late nineties, I didn't consciously know that 0:16:04.876 --> 0:16:05.876 that's what I was doing. 0:16:06.036 --> 0:16:06.436 Got it. 0:16:06.756 --> 0:16:08.836 And I was at a wrestling show one night and 0:16:08.876 --> 0:16:10.636 I and I've talked to a young man for the 0:16:10.676 --> 0:16:13.836 show who was getting an opportunity, and he was very nervous, 0:16:14.276 --> 0:16:15.916 and I watched him go out and sort of in 0:16:15.956 --> 0:16:18.196 a moment of feelty, I wanted to watch and see 0:16:18.196 --> 0:16:22.276 how he did. And the crowd was mercilessly mean to him, 0:16:22.676 --> 0:16:25.276 booed and yelled and through stuff. And so when he 0:16:25.316 --> 0:16:27.956 came back to the curtain, I see empathy, was like, oh, 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:30.236 I felt bad for him. And he walked through the curtain. 0:16:30.276 --> 0:16:31.796 I said, how do you feel? He said, I feel great, 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:36.076 and I said, I don't understand. He said, I did 0:16:36.116 --> 0:16:39.796 my job. They hated me, And it was like this 0:16:39.916 --> 0:16:41.756 light bulb went off in my head. I said, oh, 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:47.116 that's what I do. I'm actually by engendering a response 0:16:47.156 --> 0:16:49.876 because I used to say the opposite of love is 0:16:49.876 --> 0:16:51.276 not hate, his apathy. 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:56.476 But as someone who feels a lot, doesn't the hate 0:16:57.836 --> 0:17:00.836 denigrate you? And I mean that's got to hurt your soul. 0:17:01.236 --> 0:17:07.436 Totally toxic. Yeah, totally a pyrrhic approach. It's not I 0:17:07.476 --> 0:17:10.756 do not recommend it for the same thing. But I 0:17:10.836 --> 0:17:14.476 made my point. The problem is is I've raised my 0:17:14.556 --> 0:17:16.676 hand in different decades and say, okay, I'm done making 0:17:16.716 --> 0:17:18.436 my point. I just want to go back to being 0:17:19.276 --> 0:17:21.636 Bill from Glendale Heights and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, 0:17:23.236 --> 0:17:26.556 You're in it now, you are this, and so at 0:17:26.556 --> 0:17:31.116 some point you become your avatar, want to be or not. 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:34.796 And I always start every sentence involving that with I 0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:38.836 created it. It's my responsibility. I know why I created it. 0:17:38.876 --> 0:17:40.716 I can blame the media or I can blame the 0:17:40.756 --> 0:17:43.676 teacher in fourth grade, but I did it. So I'm 0:17:43.716 --> 0:17:46.076 okay with that part of it. But it does get 0:17:46.516 --> 0:17:51.316 toxic when you literally see and we of course we 0:17:51.356 --> 0:17:54.956 live in a hyper politicized society. You literally see where 0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:58.436 people cannot get out of the like no fact will 0:17:58.476 --> 0:18:02.916 change their opinion, there's no You become kind of part 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:07.516 of something that's that's almost inexplicable. It's like they need 0:18:07.596 --> 0:18:11.156 someone to boo. Yeah, and once you're kind of in 0:18:11.196 --> 0:18:13.596 the in the in the heel section of the booing, 0:18:14.196 --> 0:18:15.716 they don't want you to come out of it because 0:18:15.716 --> 0:18:19.036 you're a really good heel. They did, they eat somebody 0:18:19.076 --> 0:18:21.716 to be angry at or or or heat on or. 0:18:22.076 --> 0:18:24.556 Like I told Joe Rogan in this interview that we 0:18:24.676 --> 0:18:28.276 just did you know about about how at some point 0:18:28.316 --> 0:18:29.916 I was I felt like I was being made to 0:18:29.956 --> 0:18:33.036 pay for the sins of the of the generational figures 0:18:33.036 --> 0:18:35.756 that had left the planet. Yeah, And he was like, 0:18:35.796 --> 0:18:38.756 I don't really understand that. I was like, I'm expected 0:18:38.756 --> 0:18:40.876 to carry a flag for people who aren't even here 0:18:41.316 --> 0:18:44.996 for this amorphous concept of gen X, Yeah, which, by 0:18:45.036 --> 0:18:46.636 the way, I didn't even I didn't even agree with 0:18:46.676 --> 0:18:49.116 all those values either. Yeah. And I said it at 0:18:49.156 --> 0:18:52.556 the time, irrelevant. It's like a like a judge out 0:18:52.556 --> 0:18:56.396 of a Pink Floyd movie. Irrelevant. You were there, you 0:18:56.436 --> 0:18:59.236 were there, you were on MTV. You carry this flag 0:18:59.276 --> 0:19:01.716 whether you want to or not, you know, And that's. 0:19:01.716 --> 0:19:04.596 Like they didn't even accept me. Oh no, no, I'm 0:19:04.596 --> 0:19:05.396 the spokesperson. 0:19:05.796 --> 0:19:05.956 No. 0:19:06.036 --> 0:19:08.596 I mean the classic example I always give is the 0:19:08.596 --> 0:19:11.596 Pumpkins album's got horrible reviews in the in the decade. 0:19:12.676 --> 0:19:19.236 Now they're all considered classics. But I'm melancholie. I got 0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:21.516 two and a half stars in Rolling Stone. 0:19:21.636 --> 0:19:25.956 Wow, what was the reason? What was the argument? 0:19:26.116 --> 0:19:28.236 I said, it was a piece of shit, an over 0:19:28.316 --> 0:19:32.956 ambitious piece of shit. Over ambitious, Yeah, I was that's yes, 0:19:32.996 --> 0:19:35.196 that that was a bad thing to be back then. 0:19:35.516 --> 0:19:38.476 Yes. So speaking of gen X, I thought it was 0:19:38.516 --> 0:19:41.876 so interesting and I saw you sort of have an 0:19:41.876 --> 0:19:46.076 AHA moment during your Tom Morello interview where he was 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:50.996 explaining his theory why there was sort of a rejection 0:19:51.116 --> 0:19:53.556 of fame during the nineties, and I saw it sort 0:19:53.596 --> 0:19:55.036 of click for you, and I thought it was really 0:19:55.036 --> 0:19:57.836 interesting and I wanted to hear more from you about it. 0:19:57.876 --> 0:20:01.076 But basically he was saying a lot of the artists 0:20:01.076 --> 0:20:04.156 who ended up getting big in the nineties sort of 0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:07.756 like came up worshiping two different camps of music. A 0:20:07.796 --> 0:20:10.356 lot of them were like super and hardcore punk rock. 0:20:10.516 --> 0:20:14.236 They were into like Fat Brains, Fugazi, Minor Threat, but 0:20:14.316 --> 0:20:17.876 they were also into Sabbath and Judas Priest and there's 0:20:17.956 --> 0:20:21.436 sort of like a conflict in values. Is that something 0:20:21.516 --> 0:20:24.916 that you and and so when some of those artists 0:20:24.956 --> 0:20:28.436 like Rage, like Nirvana, like Pearl Jam started to get 0:20:28.436 --> 0:20:31.916 super big, they felt really guilty and horrible about it. 0:20:32.556 --> 0:20:35.556 Yes, And I think Tom's point was then they projected 0:20:35.596 --> 0:20:39.676 that discomfort out into the world the next problems. In 0:20:39.756 --> 0:20:44.556 my case, I didn't. I wasn't uncomfortable with it. I 0:20:44.636 --> 0:20:49.796 was uncomfortable with the projection from the alternative community, particularly 0:20:49.796 --> 0:20:52.436 from snobs like Kim Gordon, that I was supposed to 0:20:52.476 --> 0:20:55.876 behave a certain way because in the rules of alternative music, 0:20:56.116 --> 0:20:58.716 you had to have a punk rock ethos therefore, or 0:20:58.916 --> 0:21:01.916 you did not belong. I mean, there is a quote 0:21:01.956 --> 0:21:04.556 in Kim Gordon's book where she literally says I wasn't 0:21:04.556 --> 0:21:08.796 punk rocks, Like what the fuck does that mean? And 0:21:08.836 --> 0:21:12.036 by the way, Kim Gordon's father was a professor in 0:21:12.116 --> 0:21:18.556 a university that is an upper middle class position, you 0:21:18.636 --> 0:21:21.516 know what I mean. Kids who come from actual fewers 0:21:22.156 --> 0:21:27.796 don't care about ethos. They care about survival. So I 0:21:27.916 --> 0:21:30.956 had no problem with being successful. I had a problem 0:21:31.036 --> 0:21:34.716 with people like that projecting on me their ethos of 0:21:34.836 --> 0:21:38.916 like it's okay to be ambitious as long as you 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:42.956 wear the right T shirt, which is all this complete 0:21:43.716 --> 0:21:49.436 bullshit malarkey. To quote Biden, it's a total bullshit. Again, 0:21:49.596 --> 0:21:53.916 there's that concept of ambition. I was too ambitious, ambitious 0:21:53.916 --> 0:21:58.036 for what my future was working at a record store 0:21:58.396 --> 0:22:02.676 or being on MTV. You choose. Being on MTV looked 0:22:02.676 --> 0:22:04.476 a lot more attractive to me because it man, I 0:22:04.476 --> 0:22:06.316 could do what I want to do, and I could 0:22:06.436 --> 0:22:10.716 go where I want to go. Didn't have a professor father. 0:22:10.836 --> 0:22:13.436 My father was in a house in Chicago dealing drugs 0:22:13.436 --> 0:22:18.796 and guns. So for me, it was survival. It's like 0:22:18.996 --> 0:22:23.836 the choices were stark and simple. So I agreed with 0:22:23.916 --> 0:22:25.956 Tom that that was definitely at the heart of a 0:22:25.996 --> 0:22:28.116 lot of those things. But again I think those were 0:22:28.316 --> 0:22:33.116 in many cases put upon ethics that I did not 0:22:33.356 --> 0:22:33.876 care for. 0:22:34.396 --> 0:22:39.276 Yeah, so when did you start talking about your early childhood? 0:22:39.316 --> 0:22:41.716 When did that come into your story? When did you 0:22:41.756 --> 0:22:45.156 start making that public? Because that does sort of change 0:22:45.196 --> 0:22:47.356 the way that maybe people perceive you. 0:22:48.796 --> 0:22:51.316 Well ninety three when the Simeuse Dream album came out, 0:22:51.556 --> 0:22:54.476 because people wanted to understand the subtextual language, and then 0:22:54.516 --> 0:22:57.356 there was this kind of rise of Latzki kids who 0:22:57.396 --> 0:23:01.076 suddenly were interested in what I was saying. And part 0:23:01.116 --> 0:23:03.396 of that lyrical change had a lot to do with Courtney, 0:23:03.436 --> 0:23:07.876