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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: In the thirty plus years since Billy Corgan hit it

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Speaker 2: big as the lead singer songwriter of the Smashing Pumpkins,

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Speaker 2: He's become many things. The owner of the National Wrestling

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Speaker 2: Alliance NWA, a father and a husband, and an outspoken

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Speaker 2: advocate of free speech through appearances on divisive podcasts hosted

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Speaker 2: by Alex Jones, Joe Rogan and Bill Maher, proving to

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Speaker 2: be both eloquent and controversial. Corgan is now hosting his

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Speaker 2: own long form interview podcast called The Magnificent Others, where

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Speaker 2: he interviews music industry heavyweights like Tom Morello, Sharon Osbourne,

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Speaker 2: and Gene Simmons. On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to

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Speaker 2: Billy Corgan about his approach to interviewing, why he rejected

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Speaker 2: the alternative music ethos in the nineties, and the subset

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Speaker 2: of his fan base that he calls Siamese zombies. This

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Speaker 2: is broken Record musicians, real conversations. Here's Leah Rose with

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Speaker 2: Billy Corgan. You can see the full video of this

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Speaker 2: interview on our YouTube page YouTube dot com slash Broken

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Speaker 2: Record Podcast.

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Speaker 3: So I was thinking about this is actually a really

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Speaker 3: exciting time to talk to you because I'm super interested

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Speaker 3: about your approach to your podcast, and it's especially interesting

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Speaker 3: for me because this is actually something I can relate to.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I feel like when I talk to musicians,

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Speaker 3: I find what they do absolutely extraordinary because I cannot

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Speaker 3: do any of it. But this I can sort of, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, sort of understand how you might be feeling

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Speaker 3: around these things. So I'm really curious about your approach

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Speaker 3: to interviewing because you've been interviewed for over thirty years now,

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Speaker 3: So when you decided to take on this project, how

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Speaker 3: did you approach it?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the simplest version is I just try

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Speaker 1: to have the same type of conversation I would have

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Speaker 1: with somebody behind the scenes, and of course you're where

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Speaker 1: there's a camera and you're of course you're ware of

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Speaker 1: the concept of time. But I've seen in some comments.

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Speaker 1: I don't really read comments, but people will send me

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Speaker 1: things and you get a sense of what's happening. The

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Speaker 1: people who do like the format that the show is

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Speaker 1: in appreciate that it has a deeper dive sort of feel,

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Speaker 1: which I would point to That's the kind of conversation

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Speaker 1: I would have with a Diane Warren if we were

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Speaker 1: sitting privately somewhere I would be asking the same types

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Speaker 1: of questions with the same type of kind of back

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Speaker 1: and forth thing. For people who don't understand it, they

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Speaker 1: seem to be confused that I'm just after what would

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Speaker 1: be called a normal interview format where some of his

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Speaker 1: erudite you asked me a question. I just bloviate on

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Speaker 1: for four minutes, and some people take the back and

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Speaker 1: forth patois the thing is disrespect. It's the complete opposite.

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Speaker 1: I really feel that there's so much that gets lost

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Speaker 1: in the translation of conversation because I've been interviewed for

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Speaker 1: thirty five years now that I'm really after something that's

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Speaker 1: almost indefinable. And that's not to say I'm better at

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Speaker 1: it than anybody else. In fact, I'm not very skilled

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Speaker 1: at it at all. But I have an intuitive sense

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Speaker 1: of the way an artist mind works, Yes, even if

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Speaker 1: it's not mine, and that's born out over now over

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Speaker 1: I think twenty five interviews, there's a commonality in the

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Speaker 1: sense of an inner and an outer experience most interviews,

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Speaker 1: and it's no disrespect to you or anybody else. They

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Speaker 1: focus on the outer experience because that's the thing that's

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Speaker 1: readily apparent it's sort of in evidence. The inner life

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Speaker 1: of an artist is oft less explode but is the

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Speaker 1: thing that I find utterly fascinating. For example, on this

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Speaker 1: interview that I just did with Diane Warren and for

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Speaker 1: people don't know, one of the greatest songwriters ever, nine

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Speaker 1: number one hit songs, thirty three top ten songs, and

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Speaker 1: the list of people who've recorded her songs, I mean

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Speaker 1: is a who's who are the greatest vocalists of all time.

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Speaker 1: It's really a stunning set of accomplishments. And yet if

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Speaker 1: you look at the interview record, there's not a lot

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Speaker 1: about this woman's interior life.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and her interior life is what's fueling her songwriting.

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Speaker 1: It's everything. Because she would tell you, as a personality

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Speaker 1: in the world that there's nothing particularly remarkable about her,

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Speaker 1: I think utterly remarkable. But she even sort of downplays

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Speaker 1: who she is. But yet the evidence, which is in

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Speaker 1: plain sight, fifteen hundred songs in counting, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: no sign of letting up. She oh no, heeddle to

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Speaker 1: the metal as an artist in in residence. Yeah, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: give me even just a kernel of what goes on

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Speaker 1: in there that allows this diamond mind of your spirit

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Speaker 1: to continually produce works that are not only at the

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Speaker 1: top of their particular field, but speak universally yes in

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Speaker 1: a way that I've rarely approached as an artist. That's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I could do nineteen hours on that. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: would bore the hell out of the audience and it

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Speaker 1: would probably bore the hell out of Diane. For me,

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Speaker 1: this is everything.

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Speaker 3: Do you think as an interviewer. I've heard Terry Gross

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Speaker 3: talk about this that in every interview she does, she's

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Speaker 3: motivated by learning something new about herself. Do you find

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Speaker 3: that through these conversations you're trying to learn about yourself

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Speaker 3: or are you truly trying to learn about that specific person,

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Speaker 3: The person in front of you's inner life and you

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Speaker 3: know their creative process.

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Speaker 1: One of my great weaknesses is I like to be right.

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Speaker 1: It's probably my greatest weakness. So much of the interview

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Speaker 1: is me trying to confirm of whether my internal assumptions

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Speaker 1: about a set of things is accurate. But the charm

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Speaker 1: there because I'm I'm okay with being wrong, because in

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Speaker 1: this case I have the subject right in front of

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Speaker 1: me to tell me, no, you're wrong, you got that

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Speaker 1: totally wrong. It's like, okay, great, because I really do

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Speaker 1: want to know that that is the supreme effort is knowledge.

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Speaker 1: If anybody knows enneagrams, I'm a five and fives are

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Speaker 1: all about collecting information. That's how we feel safe in

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Speaker 1: the world. So the more I can kind of confirm

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Speaker 1: my worldview, and in this case with you know, people

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Speaker 1: of world class talent and ability or life story in

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Speaker 1: a weird kind of way, it confirms that my read

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Speaker 1: on the world is actually fairly accurate. And as an

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Speaker 1: artist type, I've been told my whole life that my

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Speaker 1: perspective on the world is either wrong, overly dramatic, overwrought,

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Speaker 1: you know, just calm down and just kind of get

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Speaker 1: in line type of stuff. But I think has been

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Speaker 1: born out over the last twenty or thirty years with

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Speaker 1: social media that people's interior lives are actually a lot

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Speaker 1: more complex than we would have previously thought in prior societies.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there was always indication of it, and of

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Speaker 1: course what people would read, whether it would be Hemiway

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Speaker 1: or Dickens or you know, Jane Austen or something. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's obviously rich interior lives, but now it lives on

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Speaker 1: continual display Yeah, and maybe we're entering in age now

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Speaker 1: and you know, maybe you know the Age of Aquarius

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Speaker 1: or something, but we're entering an age now where maybe

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Speaker 1: there's going to be more introspection on people's actual internal

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Speaker 1: lives or interior lives and how they actually play into

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Speaker 1: their behavior.

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Speaker 3: That would be nice, I would hope, because I would skeptical,

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Speaker 3: but that would be nice.

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Speaker 1: Well, God blessed, But I would like to make the

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Speaker 1: simple argument that the more people's interior lives are readily

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Speaker 1: available to them, the less violent a planet we would

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Speaker 1: live on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Have you had the experience yet of someone who

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Speaker 3: cannot be drawn out, someone who doesn't know how to

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Speaker 3: explain their inner life, someone who, I know a lot

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Speaker 3: of artists express their inner lives through their art. Have

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Speaker 3: you had and you're very eloquent, and you're very eloquent

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Speaker 3: about your creative process. Have you sat across from someone

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Speaker 3: who just does not know how to explain it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think that's totally fine, because at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, their perspective trump's mind. I'm really

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Speaker 1: in service to tell their story, and that's where people

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Speaker 1: misunderstand what I'm after. I asked a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: who knows me pretty well. Do you think I'm talking

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Speaker 1: too much? Or you think I'm talking too much about myself?

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Speaker 1: And they said, no, No, that's how you are in life,

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Speaker 1: and what you do is you create kind of commonality.

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Speaker 1: And what you're doing is you're sharing because you're trying

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Speaker 1: to say I think I understand is what I'm sharing

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Speaker 1: relate to what you're saying. That made me feel better

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Speaker 1: about it, because at times it does feel to me

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Speaker 1: like I'm talking too much, but I'm really after this

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Speaker 1: interior life. Like I said, I find it utterly fascinating.

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Speaker 1: And let's use Diane Warren as an example. Diane says

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Speaker 1: in the interview, like I don't really think about a

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Speaker 1: lot of the steps that you're asking me. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: there were about two or three instances in the interview,

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Speaker 1: which is about an hour long, where she initially kind

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Speaker 1: of gives me an answer which says I don't really

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Speaker 1: think about that or that's not really I say something,

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Speaker 1: and then she goes, oh, and then she'll give me

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Speaker 1: something that wasn't previously there. To me, that's the AGA

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Speaker 1: pay moment of like, Okay, that's exactly what I'm after.

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Speaker 1: I'm not asking somebody who doesn't really know me in

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Speaker 1: the case Diane, we had met before. But I'm not

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Speaker 1: asking someone to walk into a st and throw open

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Speaker 1: the door to everything. I don't I think that's really fair.

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Speaker 1: But if they're willing to just crack that door open

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Speaker 1: a little bit here and there, I think. I know

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Speaker 1: I gained such immense respect for artists that I already admire. Yes,

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Speaker 1: because the ability to look and see that beautiful engine.

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Speaker 1: And I know not everybody believes in God, but as

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Speaker 1: somebody who does believe in God, I'm oftentimes taken with

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Speaker 1: the magisterial aspect of the human soul and how different

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Speaker 1: every soul on this planet is. That I would include

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Speaker 1: that even into our pets, which is even feels like

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Speaker 1: a like an unfair word. You know, in our house

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Speaker 1: we have three cats and a dog and two fish.

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Speaker 1: And if you spend any time with animals in your home,

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Speaker 1: of course you see that they have very different personalities. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they're hardwired in really unique ways. People come to

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Speaker 1: our house and they'll say, all your cats are like dogs.

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Speaker 1: You know, It's like, so, where does that come from? Anyway?

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Speaker 1: I think you understand the point of making.

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Speaker 3: Totally Yeah, I was curious, So since in your past

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Speaker 3: with press you sort of like fucked with media. In

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Speaker 3: the beginning of The Pumpkins, I've heard you say that

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Speaker 3: it was sort of a performance art project, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of times the band would make things up in interviews.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious where you stand about sort of like digging

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Speaker 3: and creating viral moments to help your show blow up.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like a very easy thing. It's a

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Speaker 3: cheap thing that you could You could probably do like that.

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Speaker 3: What's your take on that.

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Speaker 1: I can think of about two or three instances where

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Speaker 1: I went down a particular road with an interview subject

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Speaker 1: on my show and it was like I played baseball

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Speaker 1: as a kid. It was like they threw me a

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Speaker 1: spinning curveball and all I had to do was hit it, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it was instant clickbait.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us who?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember, honestly, it's just it's just it's an

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Speaker 1: internal feel of like, oops, there it is, and all

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Speaker 1: I gotta do is ask the follow up question or

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Speaker 1: hit this spinning ball in front of my face and

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Speaker 1: there's a viral moment totally, And it's like in all

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Speaker 1: three instances, I was like Nope. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be on that type of show. Yeah, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that to my guests. I'm a firm believer,

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Speaker 1: and of course the numbers are still out on this,

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Speaker 1: but I'm a firm believer that we are capable of

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Speaker 1: creating a new type of dialogue in American culture. I

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Speaker 1: know it won't be for everybody, because we're dealing with

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Speaker 1: a massive people who are dopamine addicted, but I do

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Speaker 1: believe there's a different type of conversation that can be had. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it's the twenty first century version of it, but I

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Speaker 1: remember being entranced by conversations when I was a kid

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Speaker 1: on TBS where they would just go on for hours

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Speaker 1: about really wonky stuff. But if you allow yourself to

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Speaker 1: be drawn in, it's this becunded atmosphere of like, wow,

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Speaker 1: not everything is yes or no, black or white, win

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Speaker 1: loup yes. And I think we live in such a

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Speaker 1: bifurcated society right now, where is that tends to be

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Speaker 1: the common metric? Yes, so and so on so and

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Speaker 1: so lost. A moment that really stands out starkly in

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Speaker 1: my mind in American life was I watched one of

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Speaker 1: the presidential debates in the last twenty years, and they

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Speaker 1: went to the you know, the roundtable. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: what network, but they went to the roundtable afterwards, and

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Speaker 1: they were talking about one of the candidate's debate performances.

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Speaker 1: And in the course of the analysis, the person said,

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Speaker 1: I knew they were lying to me, but they did

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Speaker 1: such a good job of lying. And I'd have to say,

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Speaker 1: they did a great job tonight. And I thought, there's like,

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Speaker 1: there's a lightning bolk. I was like, that's it. We

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Speaker 1: live in a society now where you're no longer punished

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Speaker 1: for openly lying. You're rewarded for the artifice of your

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Speaker 1: capability to lie. And in a post truth world. And

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Speaker 1: we've got tremendous artists who've created these avatars that are

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Speaker 1: that are world class avatars. I don't need to name

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Speaker 1: the names. Mostly they tend to reside in pop stars,

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Speaker 1: but they've created these world class avatars that sell perfume

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Speaker 1: and shoes and dresses and albums and you know, stadiums

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Speaker 1: full of people. But I also talked to a lot

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Speaker 1: of young kids who are really kind of almost stung

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Speaker 1: by it all. It's not even that they dislike the artists.

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Speaker 1: But they're almost saying to me, like to quote the

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Speaker 1: Peggy League, is that all there is like is me

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Speaker 1: as I am, disqualify me from the thing that I

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Speaker 1: might want to become. And I went through a very

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Speaker 1: similar thing. And that goes back to us messing with

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Speaker 1: the media. I felt very early on Circuit nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: nine ninety that who I was was not going to work.

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Speaker 1: That personality was being rejected. So I created an avatar

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Speaker 1: of myself, not to become more attractive, actually to become

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Speaker 1: more repulsive. I turned that avatar into a weapon. And

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Speaker 1: what's really sort of interesting is that fifty seven years old,

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Speaker 1: people are still convinced I'm the avatar, not the person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the person is. I'm not saying I'm not a prickly pair,

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Speaker 1: but I'm a well rounded human being, you know, whether

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Speaker 1: it's family or charity work and a tea house and

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Speaker 1: a wrestling company. There's other sides to me besides this

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Speaker 1: rock conteur no pun intended, But people are really in

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Speaker 1: love with the avatar because it sells stuff, even if

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Speaker 1: it's negative clicks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, does the avatar have anything to do with wrestling?

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Speaker 3: I always saw that as you sort of adopting that

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Speaker 3: same wrestling entertainment ethos where it's just totally over the top,

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Speaker 3: it's shock value. Does it come from that at all?

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Speaker 1: It came later from that between from the late eighties

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Speaker 1: up until the late nineties, I didn't consciously know that

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Speaker 1: that's what I was doing.

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Speaker 3: Got it.

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Speaker 1: And I was at a wrestling show one night and

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Speaker 1: I and I've talked to a young man for the

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Speaker 1: show who was getting an opportunity, and he was very nervous,

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Speaker 1: and I watched him go out and sort of in

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Speaker 1: a moment of feelty, I wanted to watch and see

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Speaker 1: how he did. And the crowd was mercilessly mean to him,

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Speaker 1: booed and yelled and through stuff. And so when he

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Speaker 1: came back to the curtain, I see empathy, was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I felt bad for him. And he walked through the curtain.

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Speaker 1: I said, how do you feel? He said, I feel great,

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Speaker 1: and I said, I don't understand. He said, I did

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Speaker 1: my job. They hated me, And it was like this

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Speaker 1: light bulb went off in my head. I said, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's what I do. I'm actually by engendering a response

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Speaker 1: because I used to say the opposite of love is

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Speaker 1: not hate, his apathy.

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Speaker 3: But as someone who feels a lot, doesn't the hate

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Speaker 3: denigrate you? And I mean that's got to hurt your soul.

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Speaker 1: Totally toxic. Yeah, totally a pyrrhic approach. It's not I

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Speaker 1: do not recommend it for the same thing. But I

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Speaker 1: made my point. The problem is is I've raised my

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Speaker 1: hand in different decades and say, okay, I'm done making

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Speaker 1: my point. I just want to go back to being

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Speaker 1: Bill from Glendale Heights and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: You're in it now, you are this, and so at

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Speaker 1: some point you become your avatar, want to be or not.

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Speaker 1: And I always start every sentence involving that with I

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Speaker 1: created it. It's my responsibility. I know why I created it.

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Speaker 1: I can blame the media or I can blame the

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Speaker 1: teacher in fourth grade, but I did it. So I'm

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Speaker 1: okay with that part of it. But it does get

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Speaker 1: toxic when you literally see and we of course we

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Speaker 1: live in a hyper politicized society. You literally see where

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Speaker 1: people cannot get out of the like no fact will

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Speaker 1: change their opinion, there's no You become kind of part

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Speaker 1: of something that's that's almost inexplicable. It's like they need

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Speaker 1: someone to boo. Yeah, and once you're kind of in

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Speaker 1: the in the in the heel section of the booing,

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to come out of it because

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Speaker 1: you're a really good heel. They did, they eat somebody

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Speaker 1: to be angry at or or or heat on or.

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Speaker 1: Like I told Joe Rogan in this interview that we

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Speaker 1: just did you know about about how at some point

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Speaker 1: I was I felt like I was being made to

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Speaker 1: pay for the sins of the of the generational figures

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Speaker 1: that had left the planet. Yeah, And he was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't really understand that. I was like, I'm expected

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Speaker 1: to carry a flag for people who aren't even here

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Speaker 1: for this amorphous concept of gen X, Yeah, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I didn't even I didn't even agree with

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Speaker 1: all those values either. Yeah. And I said it at

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Speaker 1: the time, irrelevant. It's like a like a judge out

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Speaker 1: of a Pink Floyd movie. Irrelevant. You were there, you

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Speaker 1: were there, you were on MTV. You carry this flag

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Speaker 1: whether you want to or not, you know, And that's.

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Speaker 3: Like they didn't even accept me. Oh no, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: the spokesperson.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I mean the classic example I always give is the

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Speaker 1: Pumpkins album's got horrible reviews in the in the decade.

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Speaker 1: Now they're all considered classics. But I'm melancholie. I got

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Speaker 1: two and a half stars in Rolling Stone.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what was the reason? What was the argument?

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Speaker 1: I said, it was a piece of shit, an over

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Speaker 1: ambitious piece of shit. Over ambitious, Yeah, I was that's yes,

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Speaker 1: that that was a bad thing to be back then.

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Speaker 3: Yes. So speaking of gen X, I thought it was

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Speaker 3: so interesting and I saw you sort of have an

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Speaker 3: AHA moment during your Tom Morello interview where he was

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Speaker 3: explaining his theory why there was sort of a rejection

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Speaker 3: of fame during the nineties, and I saw it sort

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Speaker 3: of click for you, and I thought it was really

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Speaker 3: interesting and I wanted to hear more from you about it.

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Speaker 3: But basically he was saying a lot of the artists

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Speaker 3: who ended up getting big in the nineties sort of

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Speaker 3: like came up worshiping two different camps of music. A

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Speaker 3: lot of them were like super and hardcore punk rock.

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Speaker 3: They were into like Fat Brains, Fugazi, Minor Threat, but

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Speaker 3: they were also into Sabbath and Judas Priest and there's

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Speaker 3: sort of like a conflict in values. Is that something

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Speaker 3: that you and and so when some of those artists

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Speaker 3: like Rage, like Nirvana, like Pearl Jam started to get

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Speaker 3: super big, they felt really guilty and horrible about it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I think Tom's point was then they projected

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Speaker 1: that discomfort out into the world the next problems. In

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Speaker 1: my case, I didn't. I wasn't uncomfortable with it. I

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Speaker 1: was uncomfortable with the projection from the alternative community, particularly

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Speaker 1: from snobs like Kim Gordon, that I was supposed to

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Speaker 1: behave a certain way because in the rules of alternative music,

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Speaker 1: you had to have a punk rock ethos therefore, or

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Speaker 1: you did not belong. I mean, there is a quote

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Speaker 1: in Kim Gordon's book where she literally says I wasn't

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Speaker 1: punk rocks, Like what the fuck does that mean? And

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Speaker 1: by the way, Kim Gordon's father was a professor in

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Speaker 1: a university that is an upper middle class position, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. Kids who come from actual fewers

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Speaker 1: don't care about ethos. They care about survival. So I

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Speaker 1: had no problem with being successful. I had a problem

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Speaker 1: with people like that projecting on me their ethos of

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Speaker 1: like it's okay to be ambitious as long as you

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Speaker 1: wear the right T shirt, which is all this complete

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Speaker 1: bullshit malarkey. To quote Biden, it's a total bullshit. Again,

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Speaker 1: there's that concept of ambition. I was too ambitious, ambitious

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Speaker 1: for what my future was working at a record store

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Speaker 1: or being on MTV. You choose. Being on MTV looked

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Speaker 1: a lot more attractive to me because it man, I

383
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Speaker 1: could do what I want to do, and I could

384
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Speaker 1: go where I want to go. Didn't have a professor father.

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Speaker 1: My father was in a house in Chicago dealing drugs

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Speaker 1: and guns. So for me, it was survival. It's like

387
00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:23,836
Speaker 1: the choices were stark and simple. So I agreed with

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Speaker 1: Tom that that was definitely at the heart of a

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Speaker 1: lot of those things. But again I think those were

390
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Speaker 1: in many cases put upon ethics that I did not

391
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Speaker 1: care for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so when did you start talking about your early childhood?

393
00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:41,716
Speaker 3: When did that come into your story? When did you

394
00:22:41,756 --> 00:22:45,156
Speaker 3: start making that public? Because that does sort of change

395
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Speaker 3: the way that maybe people perceive you.

396
00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:51,316
Speaker 1: Well ninety three when the Simeuse Dream album came out,

397
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Speaker 1: because people wanted to understand the subtextual language, and then

398
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Speaker 1: there was this kind of rise of Latzki kids who

399
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Speaker 1: suddenly were interested in what I was saying. And part

400
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Speaker 1: of that lyrical change had a lot to do with Courtney,

401
00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:07,876
Speaker 1: because Courtney chided me for my Hippie LSD inspired lyrics

402
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Speaker 1: on our first album, and she said something and I'm paraphrasing,

403
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Speaker 1: which went like, why can't the person I talked to

404
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Speaker 1: on the phone write the lyrics for the next record

405
00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:20,276
Speaker 1: or something? So I was like, Okay, I'll take that

406
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Speaker 1: on his challenge. But when I opened the door, I

407
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Speaker 1: found a lot of pain and a lot of denial

408
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Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of stuff in there.

409
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Speaker 1: And the book The Artist's Way by Julie Cameron really

410
00:23:31,556 --> 00:23:36,796
Speaker 1: helped me to claim this voice in there that was

411
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Speaker 1: sort of screaming to get out. But I was terrified

412
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Speaker 1: because I knew I would be attacked and dot dot

413
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Speaker 1: I was, including people accusing me of making up my childhood.

414
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Speaker 1: I would routinely be asked in introdews to qualify my abuse,

415
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Speaker 1: which is insane, like on a scale of one ten,

416
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Speaker 1: how much were you beaten? And It's like, what is it? Yeah,

417
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Speaker 1: oh no, I'm not even making I'm not even close

418
00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:07,436
Speaker 1: to dramatizing them. I was asked at least forty or

419
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Speaker 1: fifty times in the nineties to qualify my abuse. Wow,

420
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Speaker 1: And I found a line eventually which kind of worked

421
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Speaker 1: as which was like, am I in the Abuse Olympics? Like,

422
00:24:19,276 --> 00:24:23,236
Speaker 1: do I have to like qualify to have agency to

423
00:24:23,316 --> 00:24:27,796
Speaker 1: talk about being abused? Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I was

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Speaker 1: being poked on by my family for talking about the

425
00:24:31,556 --> 00:24:35,196
Speaker 1: family secrets. Oh yeah, So I was getting it from

426
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Speaker 1: both ways. On one hand, I wasn't authentic enough and

427
00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:41,956
Speaker 1: the other side, the family side, they were mad for

428
00:24:42,036 --> 00:24:44,396
Speaker 1: me talking about what had happened because you don't talk

429
00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:45,676
Speaker 1: about that stuff in public.

430
00:24:46,116 --> 00:24:50,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll be back with more from Billy Corgan after

431
00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:50,516
Speaker 2: the break.

432
00:24:54,676 --> 00:24:58,676
Speaker 3: From an artist's perspective, the way that you started writing

433
00:24:59,076 --> 00:25:03,516
Speaker 3: lyrics where I imagine when you start out it's common

434
00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:06,676
Speaker 3: to take on a character and then you hear someone

435
00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:08,956
Speaker 3: like Courtney say, look like I want you to write

436
00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:11,316
Speaker 3: from your heart. I want you to write from you.

437
00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:16,796
Speaker 3: That seems like a really really big jump. How long

438
00:25:16,876 --> 00:25:19,636
Speaker 3: did that actually take? And like, how long was that process?

439
00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:21,476
Speaker 3: How many albums did that last?

440
00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:26,276
Speaker 1: Well, it's strangely coincided with the need for us to

441
00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:31,076
Speaker 1: make a successful record. I'm the type of person where

442
00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:35,276
Speaker 1: I couldn't stand being successful if I wasn't authentic, which

443
00:25:35,316 --> 00:25:39,836
Speaker 1: sounds strange because we're talking about avatars, But most fans

444
00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:42,116
Speaker 1: of my work know that the voice in the music

445
00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:45,596
Speaker 1: is very authentic. All the character stuff all around it

446
00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:48,516
Speaker 1: is a bunch of smoke, but the voice singing is

447
00:25:48,596 --> 00:25:52,876
Speaker 1: pretty on point. So yeah, it was like, Okay, you've

448
00:25:52,876 --> 00:25:54,916
Speaker 1: got to make a really successful record. You've got to

449
00:25:54,956 --> 00:25:56,956
Speaker 1: live up to the success of these new grunge bands

450
00:25:56,996 --> 00:26:00,076
Speaker 1: which have sort of exploded on the world scene. It's

451
00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:02,476
Speaker 1: your major label debut. Oh, by the way, you have

452
00:26:02,516 --> 00:26:05,036
Speaker 1: to write pop songs which go on the radio. Somehow

453
00:26:05,036 --> 00:26:07,236
Speaker 1: put all those pieces together and get back to me later.

454
00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:11,596
Speaker 1: The only thing I found that resonated deeply with me,

455
00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:14,196
Speaker 1: that I was willing to kind of die for was

456
00:26:14,676 --> 00:26:17,556
Speaker 1: to speak with an authentic voice. And it went on

457
00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:19,756
Speaker 1: for about eight months where I just, you know, would

458
00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:23,236
Speaker 1: you I am painting an analogy, but you know, you

459
00:26:23,276 --> 00:26:25,316
Speaker 1: put pen to paper and you're just too afraid to

460
00:26:25,316 --> 00:26:27,916
Speaker 1: write what you want to say. That went on for

461
00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:31,796
Speaker 1: eight months, almost killed myself repeatedly, ended up living in

462
00:26:31,796 --> 00:26:35,116
Speaker 1: a parking garage. I mean, it was a very haunting time.

463
00:26:36,076 --> 00:26:38,836
Speaker 1: It sounds kind of strangely dramatic, in hindsight at the time,

464
00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:43,036
Speaker 1: it was like it was very peramine and I was

465
00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:45,996
Speaker 1: sober most of it too. I was not, I mean

466
00:26:45,996 --> 00:26:50,396
Speaker 1: I was. I was dealing with it full, full frontal, yeah.

467
00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:54,676
Speaker 1: And I reached the point where I made up my

468
00:26:54,716 --> 00:26:56,396
Speaker 1: mind that I couldn't deal with the pressure anymore. I

469
00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:58,636
Speaker 1: was going to kill myself. So I started giving everything away.

470
00:26:59,636 --> 00:27:01,396
Speaker 1: I started doing all the things you're not supposed to do.

471
00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:06,156
Speaker 1: I started planning my own suicide. I started envisioning what

472
00:27:06,196 --> 00:27:08,276
Speaker 1: people would look like standing around my casket. I went

473
00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:11,756
Speaker 1: through the whole mental ideation, and I got to the

474
00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:13,636
Speaker 1: point where I made up my mind, Okay, I'm gonna

475
00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:16,516
Speaker 1: kill myself on Friday, and I set the date and

476
00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:18,956
Speaker 1: I counted the days down four three, two one, and

477
00:27:18,996 --> 00:27:21,516
Speaker 1: I got up. I got up the day where I

478
00:27:21,636 --> 00:27:24,436
Speaker 1: was going to kill myself, and I was like, I

479
00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:26,236
Speaker 1: really don't want to kill myself, but I kind of

480
00:27:26,236 --> 00:27:29,356
Speaker 1: made up my mind to do this, and something broke

481
00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:33,076
Speaker 1: in me, and I'm not making this part up. I

482
00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:36,476
Speaker 1: literally was like, well, if you're not gonna kill yourself,

483
00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:39,516
Speaker 1: then you need to be honest. And within the next

484
00:27:39,556 --> 00:27:42,076
Speaker 1: twenty four to forty eight hours, I wrote two of

485
00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:44,556
Speaker 1: the most famous songs that we ever had, which was

486
00:27:44,556 --> 00:27:50,156
Speaker 1: today in Disarm and out came tumbling this this unafraid voice.

487
00:27:50,276 --> 00:27:55,596
Speaker 1: It was pretty shocking and I still can't even explain

488
00:27:55,636 --> 00:27:58,116
Speaker 1: it to this day. It was like the door finally

489
00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:00,276
Speaker 1: broke and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna be me.

490
00:28:00,836 --> 00:28:02,036
Speaker 3: What do you attribute that to?

491
00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 1: I think it's like, if you face your greatest fear,

492
00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:12,196
Speaker 1: you become kind of unafraid. Yeah, I don't. That's I'm

493
00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:14,556
Speaker 1: not being artful in how I'm explaining it, but it's

494
00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:18,156
Speaker 1: like you've kind of faced it down. Yeah, you face

495
00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:20,356
Speaker 1: the final boss at the level or something, you know.

496
00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:23,756
Speaker 1: And what I would say, and I'm not a person

497
00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:26,036
Speaker 1: asked for public empathy, but I will say, for the

498
00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:29,396
Speaker 1: point of illustration, if anybody knows anything about me, that

499
00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:33,036
Speaker 1: has been a calamitous decision. Being myself in public has

500
00:28:33,196 --> 00:28:37,476
Speaker 1: not been a joy ride. Yeah, it's been a very complicated,

501
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:42,956
Speaker 1: oftentimes confusing to me way to go through business. But

502
00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:47,596
Speaker 1: as an artist, I'm fine to stand by it because

503
00:28:47,636 --> 00:28:50,156
Speaker 1: the work is there. What it's done in my life,

504
00:28:50,156 --> 00:28:52,556
Speaker 1: what it's done to my personal relationships, what it's done

505
00:28:52,596 --> 00:28:57,396
Speaker 1: to the band, that's all for books and a wonderful

506
00:28:57,436 --> 00:29:01,356
Speaker 1: podcast like yours. But I stand by the artistic version

507
00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:03,876
Speaker 1: of it because I don't know any other way. That's

508
00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:08,236
Speaker 1: all I know, and that's without training. Again, not asking

509
00:29:08,316 --> 00:29:12,476
Speaker 1: for anything, just illustrate the point. I didn't go to college.

510
00:29:12,556 --> 00:29:16,356
Speaker 1: I had no artistic training, I had no mentor, I

511
00:29:16,396 --> 00:29:18,756
Speaker 1: hadn't nobody to sit me down and say this is

512
00:29:18,756 --> 00:29:20,596
Speaker 1: how you write a song, this is how you play guitar.

513
00:29:20,676 --> 00:29:23,556
Speaker 1: I had none of that. Everything is completely self taught.

514
00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:27,756
Speaker 1: And if I'm a suicidal personality in terms of how

515
00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:30,636
Speaker 1: I attacked the public sphere, well I think you can

516
00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:33,196
Speaker 1: understand where the root of that comes from because that's

517
00:29:33,236 --> 00:29:34,636
Speaker 1: the way I did it, and that's the way I

518
00:29:34,676 --> 00:29:37,836
Speaker 1: broke through. So why wouldn't I keep doing it? Because

519
00:29:38,076 --> 00:29:40,396
Speaker 1: I don't know any other way. Yeah.

520
00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:42,836
Speaker 3: Have you had any other moments in your life that

521
00:29:42,916 --> 00:29:45,116
Speaker 3: were that rock bottom?

522
00:29:45,836 --> 00:29:49,636
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah? Yeah, early two thousands, there were some periods

523
00:29:49,636 --> 00:29:50,796
Speaker 1: that were really, really rough.

524
00:29:51,516 --> 00:29:52,836
Speaker 3: Yeah.

525
00:29:52,956 --> 00:29:55,876
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that's why I'd be willing to talk

526
00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:59,996
Speaker 1: publicly about I guess you would call it suicide prevention. Yeah,

527
00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:03,676
Speaker 1: many private conversations with people who are going through it,

528
00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:06,476
Speaker 1: because I understand that once you're in it. It's like

529
00:30:06,556 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 1: a yeah, it's like one of those Star Trek things

530
00:30:09,836 --> 00:30:11,876
Speaker 1: where they lock on the ship and the ship gets

531
00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:13,316
Speaker 1: pulled in and there's nothing you can do.

532
00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:13,676
Speaker 3: You know.

533
00:30:14,556 --> 00:30:16,876
Speaker 1: That's how it felt me, like I just couldn't escape

534
00:30:16,916 --> 00:30:20,196
Speaker 1: the gravity. But I did, and I did multiple times,

535
00:30:20,396 --> 00:30:23,676
Speaker 1: and I don't wear it like a badger pride. I'm

536
00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:26,036
Speaker 1: almost kind of ashamed that I had to get to

537
00:30:26,076 --> 00:30:29,356
Speaker 1: that point, but I can also talk proudly that I

538
00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:33,076
Speaker 1: was able to do something with it alchemically, like lead

539
00:30:33,156 --> 00:30:34,276
Speaker 1: into gold stuff.

540
00:30:35,516 --> 00:30:37,356
Speaker 3: So around the year two thousand, that would be the

541
00:30:37,396 --> 00:30:42,396
Speaker 3: Machina album, which just turned twenty five in February, so

542
00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:45,276
Speaker 3: about a month ago. So is that is that a period?

543
00:30:45,476 --> 00:30:47,916
Speaker 3: I know that was a really hard period for the band.

544
00:30:48,716 --> 00:30:52,036
Speaker 3: How do you think about that that period now that

545
00:30:52,076 --> 00:30:53,076
Speaker 3: you have some distance.

546
00:30:55,316 --> 00:30:59,716
Speaker 1: Well, you know, when when Jimmy chamber Lit left the

547
00:30:59,716 --> 00:31:03,716
Speaker 1: Pumpkins in ninety six and my mother died, I made

548
00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:06,716
Speaker 1: the decision to record the Ador album, which was basically

549
00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:08,956
Speaker 1: career suicide. And I was told at the time it

550
00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:12,756
Speaker 1: grew suicide, and I persisted, and it basically was career suicide.

551
00:31:13,076 --> 00:31:17,756
Speaker 1: Now it's considered a really, really a warmly thought of record.

552
00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:21,276
Speaker 1: Machina was the response to the negativity around the door.

553
00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:24,036
Speaker 1: It was like, we have one more record on our

554
00:31:24,036 --> 00:31:27,676
Speaker 1: album contract. We signed it together, let's reform is for

555
00:31:28,436 --> 00:31:31,596
Speaker 1: and let's just kind of do a record, give our

556
00:31:31,636 --> 00:31:33,876
Speaker 1: best college effort, like the Beatles did, make one more

557
00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:37,316
Speaker 1: record and go out on a fiery ball of glory.

558
00:31:37,716 --> 00:31:39,756
Speaker 1: And it didn't work out that way. We didn't make

559
00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:43,956
Speaker 1: it through the entire period without our basis Darcy leaving.

560
00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:48,076
Speaker 1: And then you know, there were a multitude of problems

561
00:31:48,116 --> 00:31:50,956
Speaker 1: in making the record and also promoting the record, including

562
00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:55,356
Speaker 1: the record company completely abandoning us. But the funny part

563
00:31:55,436 --> 00:31:57,676
Speaker 1: was towards the end of it, I announced that the

564
00:31:57,676 --> 00:31:59,356
Speaker 1: band was going to break up, which was always part

565
00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:02,836
Speaker 1: of the plan. We threw on the internet. In a

566
00:32:02,876 --> 00:32:06,516
Speaker 1: moment of I guess I was just kind of pissed

567
00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:08,756
Speaker 1: off at the record company. I threw out another record,

568
00:32:08,796 --> 00:32:12,916
Speaker 1: which is commonly known as Machina two for Friends and

569
00:32:13,036 --> 00:32:16,796
Speaker 1: Enemies of Modern music, and the fans love that record.

570
00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:20,036
Speaker 1: I went back to the record company and I said,

571
00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:21,996
Speaker 1: you know, I know this sounds crazy, and I know

572
00:32:22,036 --> 00:32:24,556
Speaker 1: we're leaving, but fans really like this record. Why don't

573
00:32:24,596 --> 00:32:27,796
Speaker 1: we put the two records together it's an intact unit

574
00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:30,356
Speaker 1: and put it back on the market, and I think

575
00:32:30,356 --> 00:32:31,916
Speaker 1: you'll get your money back and we'll be in a

576
00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:34,716
Speaker 1: good place. And they told me to fuck off. But

577
00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:38,396
Speaker 1: they asked for CD copies that they could hand out,

578
00:32:39,596 --> 00:32:42,796
Speaker 1: so they still help market Machina two behind the scenes,

579
00:32:43,756 --> 00:32:46,316
Speaker 1: but they wanted nothing to do with it publicly or commercially.

580
00:32:47,516 --> 00:32:49,996
Speaker 1: So when I made the reissue deal with what was

581
00:32:50,036 --> 00:32:55,316
Speaker 1: then EMI Records. Now our catalog is absorbed into Universal,

582
00:32:55,596 --> 00:32:57,356
Speaker 1: but at the time I made a deal, I said,

583
00:32:57,916 --> 00:33:00,196
Speaker 1: because they wanted all the albums reissued with box sets.

584
00:33:00,516 --> 00:33:02,796
Speaker 1: I said, I only make this deal if I'm allowed

585
00:33:02,796 --> 00:33:05,276
Speaker 1: to put Machina one and Machina two together into an

586
00:33:05,316 --> 00:33:10,716
Speaker 1: intact unit. So we're prepping that now. Oh nice, And

587
00:33:10,796 --> 00:33:14,516
Speaker 1: so Machina one in Machina two will be reunited as

588
00:33:14,556 --> 00:33:19,716
Speaker 1: they were written into one. Crazy. Uh, It's it's somewhere

589
00:33:19,756 --> 00:33:22,996
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood of fifty songs. Wow, Like it's like

590
00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:26,156
Speaker 1: a Wagner It's no, it's it's like it's like a

591
00:33:26,196 --> 00:33:28,916
Speaker 1: Wagner song cycle or something. It's like the Ringe cycle.

592
00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:32,636
Speaker 1: It goes on forever. But it really is the story

593
00:33:32,716 --> 00:33:37,876
Speaker 1: of a band disintegrating and by extension, my personality disintegrating

594
00:33:37,876 --> 00:33:42,356
Speaker 1: into some sort of spiritual uh being who trundles on

595
00:33:42,516 --> 00:33:45,556
Speaker 1: post two thousand. So it's hard to talk about that period,

596
00:33:45,596 --> 00:33:48,236
Speaker 1: but contextually, I think to your question, I look back

597
00:33:48,276 --> 00:33:50,516
Speaker 1: on it more fondly now than I did at the time.

598
00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:54,076
Speaker 3: Have you thought about selling the catalog?

599
00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:58,196
Speaker 1: I've been approached many times and I've said no every time.

600
00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:01,276
Speaker 3: Do you think it'll ever come to a point where

601
00:34:01,316 --> 00:34:01,716
Speaker 3: you will?

602
00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:06,356
Speaker 1: I don't know my lawyer, whose name I will leave

603
00:34:06,356 --> 00:34:08,356
Speaker 1: out of this for his his own his own sense

604
00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:11,596
Speaker 1: of sanity, but he's one of the top catalog guys

605
00:34:11,636 --> 00:34:15,236
Speaker 1: in the world. Wow, So I'm lucky in that. My guy,

606
00:34:16,196 --> 00:34:18,676
Speaker 1: you knows the business. So when we first sat together

607
00:34:19,676 --> 00:34:21,836
Speaker 1: with the idea that we were going to work together,

608
00:34:23,396 --> 00:34:25,796
Speaker 1: and he's a huge fan from way back. He talks

609
00:34:25,836 --> 00:34:28,476
Speaker 1: about buying Siamese Dream the day he came out, So

610
00:34:28,596 --> 00:34:31,916
Speaker 1: he's a he's a convert. He believes in what I do.

611
00:34:33,036 --> 00:34:35,036
Speaker 1: So the first time that we really sat down to

612
00:34:35,076 --> 00:34:37,076
Speaker 1: have a conversation about Okay, we're going to work together,

613
00:34:37,116 --> 00:34:39,516
Speaker 1: what does this really mean? The first question out of

614
00:34:39,516 --> 00:34:42,236
Speaker 1: his mouth was do you want to sell your catalog?

615
00:34:44,316 --> 00:34:46,836
Speaker 1: And he was asking more strategically than to encourage me

616
00:34:46,916 --> 00:34:49,836
Speaker 1: to do that, and I said no, And he said

617
00:34:49,876 --> 00:34:54,236
Speaker 1: why and I said, because it's undervalued. That I completely agree.

618
00:34:55,276 --> 00:35:00,716
Speaker 1: So until the catalog is that it's true value, it's

619
00:35:00,796 --> 00:35:04,996
Speaker 1: not even worth entertaining. It would be very, very very

620
00:35:04,996 --> 00:35:08,876
Speaker 1: hard for me to sell my catalog there. Yeah. Yeah,

621
00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:12,956
Speaker 1: I hear all the arguments, and there's fiscal arguments, and

622
00:35:12,996 --> 00:35:15,876
Speaker 1: there's hey, there's still your songs, you know, And but

623
00:35:16,156 --> 00:35:19,356
Speaker 1: for me, this has been my ticket to sanity. So

624
00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:22,996
Speaker 1: I have an incredibly close emotional attachment.

625
00:35:23,876 --> 00:35:24,356
Speaker 3: Yeah.

626
00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:26,316
Speaker 1: And as I like to say, for the thirty that

627
00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:28,956
Speaker 1: people like to listen to, and I'm blessed to even

628
00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:31,796
Speaker 1: have that many, there's still another three hundred and seventy

629
00:35:31,836 --> 00:35:34,036
Speaker 1: sitting there that don't really get listened too much. So

630
00:35:34,996 --> 00:35:37,876
Speaker 1: I'm more on the Irving Berlin Diane Warren tip, which

631
00:35:37,916 --> 00:35:40,636
Speaker 1: is you're gonna hear all my songs eventually, and I'm

632
00:35:40,636 --> 00:35:42,716
Speaker 1: going to do what I gotta do to So handing

633
00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:45,076
Speaker 1: them over to somebody and figuring that they're going to

634
00:35:45,156 --> 00:35:48,796
Speaker 1: take care of my other children in this euphemistic case,

635
00:35:49,036 --> 00:35:50,076
Speaker 1: is hard for me. To believe.

636
00:35:50,316 --> 00:35:53,436
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. How now it's totally acceptable. People don't

637
00:35:53,476 --> 00:35:55,956
Speaker 3: bat an eye when they hear you know, so and

638
00:35:55,996 --> 00:35:59,876
Speaker 3: so institutional artists sold their catalog. It's just sort of

639
00:36:00,276 --> 00:36:00,996
Speaker 3: you know, okay.

640
00:36:02,156 --> 00:36:05,356
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't describe any anything to those things, because

641
00:36:05,396 --> 00:36:07,876
Speaker 1: everybody should make decisions based on what's best for them

642
00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:10,676
Speaker 1: and their family. But it's sometimes when you see people

643
00:36:10,756 --> 00:36:13,156
Speaker 1: you truly respect and that have always been held up

644
00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:17,836
Speaker 1: as paragons of virtue or independence. Yes, kind of quote

645
00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:20,116
Speaker 1: unquote sell out to the man. And there may come

646
00:36:20,156 --> 00:36:21,876
Speaker 1: a day where I too will sell out to the man.

647
00:36:22,076 --> 00:36:24,516
Speaker 1: But let me add one other thing. And I have

648
00:36:24,716 --> 00:36:26,796
Speaker 1: thrown this out there and people always look at me

649
00:36:26,836 --> 00:36:29,556
Speaker 1: with this really puzzled, puzzled look, and then they realize

650
00:36:29,556 --> 00:36:34,076
Speaker 1: that I'm serious. Both my children have some musical ability,

651
00:36:34,156 --> 00:36:36,436
Speaker 1: but I would never push them into into music if

652
00:36:36,436 --> 00:36:39,876
Speaker 1: they didn't want it. There's no there's no uh, this

653
00:36:39,916 --> 00:36:43,836
Speaker 1: isn't the Brady Bunch or something, right. But but I

654
00:36:43,916 --> 00:36:47,876
Speaker 1: do not rule out that that the brand of the

655
00:36:47,916 --> 00:36:53,076
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins will continue, not just past me, but it

656
00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:55,276
Speaker 1: will it would continue because it's set up as an

657
00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:59,076
Speaker 1: artistic institution. I see it as being completely possible that

658
00:36:59,156 --> 00:37:01,436
Speaker 1: my children would take over the Smashing Pumpkins at one

659
00:37:01,476 --> 00:37:04,556
Speaker 1: point but play their own songs and not even necessarily

660
00:37:04,556 --> 00:37:08,556
Speaker 1: play mine. It's like it's like being in the Flying

661
00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:12,156
Speaker 1: will lend As or something. Yeah, it's not a Hank

662
00:37:12,236 --> 00:37:14,916
Speaker 1: Williams junior situation where he had to play his father's songs.

663
00:37:15,716 --> 00:37:17,556
Speaker 1: I could see a scenario and my children would take

664
00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:19,556
Speaker 1: over the brand but not even feel the need to

665
00:37:19,556 --> 00:37:20,356
Speaker 1: play my music.

666
00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:24,876
Speaker 3: Are you careful that you're not putting pressure on them? Oh?

667
00:37:24,916 --> 00:37:28,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. Yeah. My son on his kolee

668
00:37:28,596 --> 00:37:33,316
Speaker 1: on his own, has asked for a guitar, ukulele and

669
00:37:33,356 --> 00:37:37,356
Speaker 1: a bass and he plays the ukulele pretty well for

670
00:37:37,396 --> 00:37:40,676
Speaker 1: a kid who doesn't practice much. So. And my daughter

671
00:37:40,916 --> 00:37:44,756
Speaker 1: has found some program where you sing along with songs

672
00:37:44,756 --> 00:37:48,956
Speaker 1: and analyzes your pitch. Oh wow, she's only six years old.

673
00:37:49,276 --> 00:37:50,916
Speaker 1: So the other day my wife sent me a clip

674
00:37:50,916 --> 00:37:53,556
Speaker 1: of my daughter in bed singing Sweet Dreams by the Arrhythmics.

675
00:37:53,916 --> 00:37:58,876
Speaker 3: Oh so, both of them showing Jenny Lennox.

676
00:37:59,476 --> 00:38:02,636
Speaker 1: Sure, but I would never push them into it because

677
00:38:03,196 --> 00:38:05,756
Speaker 1: the one thing my father said that did resonate over

678
00:38:05,796 --> 00:38:07,476
Speaker 1: time was he didn't want me to go to the

679
00:38:07,516 --> 00:38:09,516
Speaker 1: music business because in his estimation and it was a

680
00:38:09,516 --> 00:38:14,676
Speaker 1: shit business. So I understand what he means. Wrong, No,

681
00:38:14,756 --> 00:38:20,236
Speaker 1: it's a shit business. Yeah No, but I've said publicly

682
00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:23,236
Speaker 1: and I'll say it to you. It's a rapacious business.

683
00:38:24,316 --> 00:38:28,796
Speaker 1: It still is anti artists, which is sure believable after

684
00:38:28,876 --> 00:38:33,676
Speaker 1: one hundred years of business. It's still holy anti artists,

685
00:38:36,276 --> 00:38:39,156
Speaker 1: which which is why you still see those contentious types

686
00:38:39,196 --> 00:38:44,116
Speaker 1: of relationships between artists and labels or artists in their handlers. Yeah,

687
00:38:45,196 --> 00:38:47,236
Speaker 1: if you really get behind the scenes and you talk

688
00:38:47,276 --> 00:38:49,796
Speaker 1: to people who truly run the music business, they'll tell

689
00:38:49,836 --> 00:38:52,036
Speaker 1: you that they're and I think it's a bit of

690
00:38:52,076 --> 00:38:55,836
Speaker 1: a rationalization, but they'll tell you that part of their

691
00:38:55,956 --> 00:39:00,556
Speaker 1: logic is artists don't last. Most are lucky to have

692
00:39:00,596 --> 00:39:04,236
Speaker 1: three or four years. So they're oriented around the concept,

693
00:39:04,796 --> 00:39:07,436
Speaker 1: which is, I don't really have to worry about your

694
00:39:07,476 --> 00:39:08,956
Speaker 1: future because it's not my future.

695
00:39:09,316 --> 00:39:09,476
Speaker 3: Right.

696
00:39:10,716 --> 00:39:14,916
Speaker 1: I find that completely shocking, because if you have a

697
00:39:14,956 --> 00:39:21,116
Speaker 1: Billie Eilish or you know, Bob Marley, I don't know

698
00:39:21,196 --> 00:39:23,956
Speaker 1: how you don't go, My goodness, this is such a

699
00:39:24,076 --> 00:39:28,036
Speaker 1: rare flower. Yeah, we really got to do everything in

700
00:39:28,116 --> 00:39:32,636
Speaker 1: our power to nurture and let this artist fly with

701
00:39:32,716 --> 00:39:35,396
Speaker 1: the biggest wings possible because by the way we make

702
00:39:35,476 --> 00:39:39,436
Speaker 1: more money, they go into this other mode, which is like, uh,

703
00:39:39,556 --> 00:39:43,316
Speaker 1: we better be careful, We're going to lose control. Yeah.

704
00:39:43,356 --> 00:39:45,756
Speaker 3: I thought it was really interesting your conversation with Sharon

705
00:39:45,796 --> 00:39:49,916
Speaker 3: Osborne on your podcast, because she has been in the

706
00:39:49,996 --> 00:39:53,796
Speaker 3: music industry since she as she started working with her

707
00:39:54,036 --> 00:39:56,836
Speaker 3: dad when officially working with her dad when she was fifteen,

708
00:39:57,676 --> 00:40:00,956
Speaker 3: and back then the music industry was so much more

709
00:40:01,756 --> 00:40:08,436
Speaker 3: upfront about just being ruthless. There were no protections in

710
00:40:08,476 --> 00:40:11,116
Speaker 3: place for our So that was just interesting to hear

711
00:40:11,196 --> 00:40:15,156
Speaker 3: that whole lineage. And I was curious in your interview

712
00:40:15,196 --> 00:40:17,836
Speaker 3: with Sharon, you seemed like you were giving her a

713
00:40:17,876 --> 00:40:22,396
Speaker 3: lot more room to talk, whereas the Tom Morello you

714
00:40:22,396 --> 00:40:24,956
Speaker 3: were so excited. You were like, you know, jumping in

715
00:40:25,076 --> 00:40:27,396
Speaker 3: and I'm sorry for interrupting you, but you had you

716
00:40:27,436 --> 00:40:31,756
Speaker 3: were like, so, you know, like excited about it because

717
00:40:31,836 --> 00:40:34,996
Speaker 3: there's just a lot of commonality, I think. But with

718
00:40:35,116 --> 00:40:38,796
Speaker 3: the interview with Sharon, is there a reason you had

719
00:40:38,836 --> 00:40:42,396
Speaker 3: a different approach? Did it have anything to do with

720
00:40:42,516 --> 00:40:43,836
Speaker 3: your past with Sharon?

721
00:40:44,276 --> 00:40:48,356
Speaker 1: A little bit? A little bit Sharon and I made

722
00:40:48,436 --> 00:40:52,876
Speaker 1: up behind the scenes, I mean easily over fifteen years ago. Yeah,

723
00:40:53,556 --> 00:40:57,076
Speaker 1: but I think there's a sweetness and an affection there

724
00:40:57,116 --> 00:41:01,316
Speaker 1: that we have naturally, and I wanted to be careful

725
00:41:01,836 --> 00:41:04,396
Speaker 1: in getting her to talk about stuff that maybe she

726
00:41:04,436 --> 00:41:07,316
Speaker 1: would normally talk about in a way that would make

727
00:41:07,316 --> 00:41:11,196
Speaker 1: her feel safe. And I think that was also an

728
00:41:11,276 --> 00:41:14,676
Speaker 1: understanding that if I wasn't careful, it might come off

729
00:41:14,756 --> 00:41:18,476
Speaker 1: that I still had a bone to pick, given you know,

730
00:41:18,556 --> 00:41:23,156
Speaker 1: our our very public falling out circa around machine. Actually. Yeah,

731
00:41:23,316 --> 00:41:26,316
Speaker 1: So I mean I know that I know that Sharon

732
00:41:26,316 --> 00:41:28,356
Speaker 1: and I are cool, and she knows that I'm cool

733
00:41:28,396 --> 00:41:30,516
Speaker 1: with her. But at the same time, I could see

734
00:41:30,516 --> 00:41:36,036
Speaker 1: where maybe people would be misinterpreting my approach. So if

735
00:41:36,036 --> 00:41:38,636
Speaker 1: you see any nervousness there, it's not between Sharon and I.

736
00:41:38,756 --> 00:41:40,996
Speaker 1: It's it's because I want to make sure that nobody

737
00:41:40,996 --> 00:41:45,236
Speaker 1: misreads what's going on, because, like I said, this is

738
00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:47,996
Speaker 1: this is a long ago healed thing between us.

739
00:41:48,316 --> 00:41:52,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, how did you end up? Well, how did the

740
00:41:52,436 --> 00:41:56,396
Speaker 3: avatar eventually break down? And was that in the Machina era?

741
00:41:58,756 --> 00:42:02,476
Speaker 1: Uh? I think I rationalized that once I was out

742
00:42:02,516 --> 00:42:04,676
Speaker 1: of it with the Pumpkins, it was like, Okay, that

743
00:42:04,796 --> 00:42:07,236
Speaker 1: was a contrivance of that. I'm thirty three years old,

744
00:42:07,356 --> 00:42:09,076
Speaker 1: I'm going to be on my own now, and I'm

745
00:42:09,196 --> 00:42:10,876
Speaker 1: to get a new record deal. I'm going a soldier

746
00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:15,076
Speaker 1: on as quote unquote Billy Corgan, whoever that is. And

747
00:42:16,036 --> 00:42:18,836
Speaker 1: I genuinely tried in the band that followed The Pumpkins,

748
00:42:18,836 --> 00:42:22,596
Speaker 1: which was uan to just be a member of the band. Yeah,

749
00:42:22,636 --> 00:42:26,396
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you a funny thing that happened. Zwan

750
00:42:26,556 --> 00:42:28,156
Speaker 1: was very much put together as a kind of an

751
00:42:28,196 --> 00:42:31,476
Speaker 1: equal ensemble. All front members of the band could sing,

752
00:42:32,356 --> 00:42:34,516
Speaker 1: and two of the male members had sung for their

753
00:42:34,556 --> 00:42:39,876
Speaker 1: own bands or in their own situations, and pause the

754
00:42:40,076 --> 00:42:43,316
Speaker 1: bass player could sing well too, So I was trying

755
00:42:43,356 --> 00:42:45,396
Speaker 1: to find something that had a little bit more balanced

756
00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:47,796
Speaker 1: to it than say, The Pumpkins, at least on paper.

757
00:42:49,076 --> 00:42:51,676
Speaker 1: And I kind of got comfortable with not being the

758
00:42:51,716 --> 00:42:55,076
Speaker 1: front guy, even though I was the front guy. Yeah,

759
00:42:55,396 --> 00:42:59,076
Speaker 1: and I read a review of us back when I

760
00:42:59,116 --> 00:43:05,636
Speaker 1: read reviews that chastised the show as being boring and

761
00:43:05,716 --> 00:43:09,596
Speaker 1: chastise me for sort of laying back or something. So

762
00:43:09,836 --> 00:43:12,436
Speaker 1: in a moment of peak, I, uh, if that's the

763
00:43:12,436 --> 00:43:14,796
Speaker 1: way you pronounced that word, I decided the next night

764
00:43:16,036 --> 00:43:17,756
Speaker 1: that I was going to go out there and put

765
00:43:17,796 --> 00:43:19,316
Speaker 1: on an old fashioned show in the way that I

766
00:43:19,436 --> 00:43:21,676
Speaker 1: knew how to do in the pumpkins, and so I

767
00:43:21,716 --> 00:43:23,796
Speaker 1: was jumping all over and I had a great time,

768
00:43:23,796 --> 00:43:25,676
Speaker 1: and the show was great, and it was really well received.

769
00:43:25,716 --> 00:43:28,356
Speaker 1: I had no idea none that that night there was

770
00:43:28,396 --> 00:43:30,516
Speaker 1: a there was a critic for Rolling Stone in the audience,

771
00:43:32,996 --> 00:43:35,116
Speaker 1: as only they would have it. I had no idea

772
00:43:35,116 --> 00:43:37,236
Speaker 1: there was a reviewer there, because you wait, somebody will

773
00:43:37,236 --> 00:43:38,596
Speaker 1: come back and tell you so and so is in

774
00:43:38,636 --> 00:43:41,716
Speaker 1: the house or something. You're on the guest. So imagine

775
00:43:41,716 --> 00:43:44,356
Speaker 1: that I've done this whole tour where I really kind

776
00:43:44,396 --> 00:43:47,836
Speaker 1: of laid back, and then then this one night I

777
00:43:47,916 --> 00:43:51,076
Speaker 1: decided to be my machine, a self or something. And

778
00:43:51,116 --> 00:43:54,316
Speaker 1: then this review comes out and the reviewer chastises me

779
00:43:54,396 --> 00:44:01,276
Speaker 1: for making the show about me. I thought, well, you know,

780
00:44:02,516 --> 00:44:04,436
Speaker 1: damned if you do, damned if you don't. So in

781
00:44:04,596 --> 00:44:08,676
Speaker 1: my in my brain that that equals, well, if I'm damned,

782
00:44:08,676 --> 00:44:10,316
Speaker 1: if I'm if I do, I'm going to do it,

783
00:44:11,196 --> 00:44:14,836
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make it worse. So that's set into emotion

784
00:44:14,956 --> 00:44:19,956
Speaker 1: a whole nother round of various versions of whatever this is,

785
00:44:20,276 --> 00:44:27,156
Speaker 1: and it gets it gets a awfully disassociative at times. Yeah,

786
00:44:28,036 --> 00:44:32,356
Speaker 1: but I'm interested, I guess, so that's my excuse. Yeah,

787
00:44:32,396 --> 00:44:33,396
Speaker 1: it's not healthy.

788
00:44:34,916 --> 00:44:37,036
Speaker 3: It works though it doesn't.

789
00:44:37,036 --> 00:44:37,556
Speaker 1: It doesn't.

790
00:44:38,276 --> 00:44:43,156
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how it I'm sure personally, emotionally,

791
00:44:43,316 --> 00:44:47,836
Speaker 3: it's extremely hard. Publicly entertainment wise, it works.

792
00:44:48,116 --> 00:44:52,356
Speaker 1: Let me take a let me take a a philosophical leap.

793
00:44:53,836 --> 00:44:57,956
Speaker 1: A child that's abused or a child that feels neglected

794
00:44:59,156 --> 00:45:04,356
Speaker 1: that changes its personality to gain attention or love. Yeah,

795
00:45:04,636 --> 00:45:06,956
Speaker 1: ultimately no. As an Alice Miller talks about this in

796
00:45:06,996 --> 00:45:09,916
Speaker 1: the great book The Dramas, It gets a child that

797
00:45:09,996 --> 00:45:15,516
Speaker 1: the child is aware that's inauthentic. So there's a sorrow

798
00:45:15,596 --> 00:45:19,916
Speaker 1: attached to the personality because the personality is the device

799
00:45:19,956 --> 00:45:22,556
Speaker 1: by which they're removed from their own the love that

800
00:45:22,596 --> 00:45:26,236
Speaker 1: they really want, which is self acceptance or the acceptance

801
00:45:26,236 --> 00:45:30,196
Speaker 1: of the parents or whatever. So to persist at fifty

802
00:45:30,236 --> 00:45:34,476
Speaker 1: seven with this disassociative set of characters, it means on

803
00:45:34,516 --> 00:45:37,196
Speaker 1: some level, I'm still not getting the love that I

804
00:45:37,236 --> 00:45:41,316
Speaker 1: would like to get. There's a sadness to that, you know.

805
00:45:42,036 --> 00:45:45,436
Speaker 1: And to illustrate this example, again not asking for any

806
00:45:45,476 --> 00:45:48,836
Speaker 1: empathy or sympathy I will be walking through an airport

807
00:45:48,956 --> 00:45:50,756
Speaker 1: and that's usually where people can get to me because

808
00:45:51,316 --> 00:45:54,556
Speaker 1: I'm in the world at a catch a plane. And

809
00:45:55,676 --> 00:45:58,036
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many times people have come

810
00:45:58,116 --> 00:46:01,196
Speaker 1: up and talked to me as if I'm the agent

811
00:46:01,276 --> 00:46:03,116
Speaker 1: for the person that wrote all the songs.

812
00:46:04,956 --> 00:46:05,476
Speaker 3: What do you mean?

813
00:46:06,356 --> 00:46:08,836
Speaker 1: They talk to me like, I'm not Billy Corgan the artist,

814
00:46:09,156 --> 00:46:11,196
Speaker 1: talk to me like I'm Billy Corgan the human being.

815
00:46:11,236 --> 00:46:13,596
Speaker 1: Who can can Billy corgyan the human being talked to

816
00:46:13,636 --> 00:46:18,916
Speaker 1: the person they're really interested in. I know it sounds strange,

817
00:46:18,916 --> 00:46:21,276
Speaker 1: but I'm telling you this is a common experience.

818
00:46:21,436 --> 00:46:24,356
Speaker 3: Like can you have a meeting with that guy because

819
00:46:24,396 --> 00:46:27,476
Speaker 3: something's going on with him that obviously isn't right.

820
00:46:28,196 --> 00:46:31,156
Speaker 1: Yes, Like don you talk to your twin.

821
00:46:32,436 --> 00:46:34,236
Speaker 3: Because they see you in the world and they see, oh,

822
00:46:34,236 --> 00:46:36,356
Speaker 3: he's a guy, but.

823
00:46:36,356 --> 00:46:39,636
Speaker 1: They don't want that guy. They're not interested in that guy.

824
00:46:40,396 --> 00:46:43,036
Speaker 1: So it's weird because you're constantly in this position of

825
00:46:43,076 --> 00:46:46,076
Speaker 1: almost being put down. Yeah, but they're putting you down

826
00:46:46,076 --> 00:46:48,476
Speaker 1: with you. I know it sounds very strange and it's

827
00:46:48,516 --> 00:46:51,476
Speaker 1: hard to translate, but I've had this experience many, many times.

828
00:46:53,236 --> 00:46:57,116
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, in my will we call them Siamese zombies.

829
00:46:57,796 --> 00:47:00,436
Speaker 1: They're people who are in love with Siamese Dream and

830
00:47:00,476 --> 00:47:02,716
Speaker 1: there's no other record for them in the Pumpkins Cannon,

831
00:47:03,076 --> 00:47:04,756
Speaker 1: and that's all they want to talk about, and they'll

832
00:47:04,756 --> 00:47:06,916
Speaker 1: talk about it for hours, and if you even remotely

833
00:47:06,956 --> 00:47:09,036
Speaker 1: go off the subject, their eyes glaze over in the

834
00:47:09,196 --> 00:47:12,116
Speaker 1: get bored. I call them siem zombies, right, because it's

835
00:47:12,396 --> 00:47:16,316
Speaker 1: literally talking to a zombie. Yeah, okay. They will talk

836
00:47:16,356 --> 00:47:18,756
Speaker 1: to me and say, you know, it would be really

837
00:47:18,836 --> 00:47:21,276
Speaker 1: nice if you could talk to the guy who wrote

838
00:47:21,276 --> 00:47:24,156
Speaker 1: those songs, because I would like more of those songs. Yes,

839
00:47:24,876 --> 00:47:26,676
Speaker 1: you know, I'm the guy who wrote those songs. And

840
00:47:26,676 --> 00:47:29,116
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, but if you were really the guy

841
00:47:29,116 --> 00:47:30,956
Speaker 1: who wrote those songs, you would write more of them.

842
00:47:32,196 --> 00:47:34,316
Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, I'm the guy who wrote those

843
00:47:34,316 --> 00:47:36,436
Speaker 1: songs and I choose not to write more songs like that.

844
00:47:36,476 --> 00:47:39,396
Speaker 1: And they're like no, no, no, no, no, there's something wrong in

845
00:47:39,436 --> 00:47:43,396
Speaker 1: this exchange. It's like, I'm not even there. I know

846
00:47:43,476 --> 00:47:46,876
Speaker 1: it's super this is real, but again I think it's

847
00:47:47,116 --> 00:47:50,196
Speaker 1: it speaks to the disassociated nature for a culture. Oh yeah,

848
00:47:50,316 --> 00:47:54,916
Speaker 1: it's little avatars, real avatars, real human beings, real human

849
00:47:54,956 --> 00:47:59,596
Speaker 1: beings and the digital currency culture are inconvenient because they cry,

850
00:47:59,676 --> 00:48:03,156
Speaker 1: they bleed, they sigh, they yawn, they they look away.

851
00:48:03,436 --> 00:48:07,676
Speaker 1: It's inconvenient to this digital ogapay that needs to go on.

852
00:48:08,516 --> 00:48:11,996
Speaker 1: And the pop stars have become very skilled at nurturing

853
00:48:12,036 --> 00:48:15,796
Speaker 1: this digital aga pay, so they're so everybody else seems

854
00:48:15,836 --> 00:48:16,916
Speaker 1: like they're moving slow.

855
00:48:20,196 --> 00:48:22,916
Speaker 3: That also seems like it's a product of the nature

856
00:48:22,956 --> 00:48:26,596
Speaker 3: of your job, which is pouring all of your emotional

857
00:48:26,636 --> 00:48:31,076
Speaker 3: life into something that becomes a product that people consume.

858
00:48:32,236 --> 00:48:34,756
Speaker 1: I'm okay with that, And that's crazy, it sounds I'm

859
00:48:34,796 --> 00:48:37,716
Speaker 1: okay with that. What I'm not okay with is is

860
00:48:39,276 --> 00:48:42,316
Speaker 1: that's the wrong set of pouring emotions. Can you pour

861
00:48:42,356 --> 00:48:46,956
Speaker 1: a different set of emotions? Yeah, as if there's a choice.

862
00:48:47,636 --> 00:48:50,196
Speaker 1: So that's a weird weird like it's like saying to

863
00:48:50,236 --> 00:48:53,436
Speaker 1: your partner, you're loving me wrong? Yeah, can you tuk

864
00:48:53,476 --> 00:48:56,276
Speaker 1: you this other way? And they're like, no, I'm loving

865
00:48:56,316 --> 00:48:57,996
Speaker 1: you the way I love this is all I know.

866
00:48:58,196 --> 00:49:02,156
Speaker 1: I'm giving you everything I got none And I saw

867
00:49:02,236 --> 00:49:03,836
Speaker 1: this TV show Can you love me like that?

868
00:49:04,556 --> 00:49:05,316
Speaker 3: Yeah?

869
00:49:05,476 --> 00:49:09,836
Speaker 1: It's it really is this embrace of and inauthentic world. Yes,

870
00:49:09,916 --> 00:49:13,756
Speaker 1: And what's even more frightening is that nobody seems to care.

871
00:49:14,796 --> 00:49:17,156
Speaker 1: And when I say nobody, I'm being hyperbolic, but I mean,

872
00:49:17,596 --> 00:49:20,236
Speaker 1: you don't hear this big hue and cry in the culture.

873
00:49:20,676 --> 00:49:23,796
Speaker 1: What happened to our authentic culture? I think because people

874
00:49:23,836 --> 00:49:27,196
Speaker 1: are entertained bread and circus, So as long as they're entertained,

875
00:49:27,196 --> 00:49:30,996
Speaker 1: they're pick with the inauthenticity. And I think the rising

876
00:49:31,036 --> 00:49:35,316
Speaker 1: suicide rates with young people are some small indication and

877
00:49:35,356 --> 00:49:38,516
Speaker 1: they're through the roof that something is a miss. But

878
00:49:38,596 --> 00:49:41,476
Speaker 1: nobody want to hit the pause button and even do

879
00:49:41,596 --> 00:49:45,436
Speaker 1: any kind of deep dive study on how this associative

880
00:49:45,516 --> 00:49:48,316
Speaker 1: culture is influent young people. And again I go back

881
00:49:48,356 --> 00:49:50,436
Speaker 1: to the analogy I made. I think they look down

882
00:49:50,476 --> 00:49:52,756
Speaker 1: the pike and they say, there's no room for me

883
00:49:52,836 --> 00:49:53,236
Speaker 1: to be me.

884
00:49:55,036 --> 00:49:56,436
Speaker 2: We have to take one more break and we'll be

885
00:49:56,476 --> 00:49:58,516
Speaker 2: back with Leo Rose and Billy Corgan.

886
00:50:03,076 --> 00:50:05,556
Speaker 3: Do you really think, with everything that's going on in

887
00:50:05,596 --> 00:50:09,676
Speaker 3: how fast things escalate in media, that people will get

888
00:50:09,676 --> 00:50:13,996
Speaker 3: to a point where authenticity will make a comeback? Do

889
00:50:14,076 --> 00:50:15,476
Speaker 3: you really think that's possible?

890
00:50:15,836 --> 00:50:17,636
Speaker 1: I do, but I'm going to paint it in a

891
00:50:17,676 --> 00:50:21,356
Speaker 1: bleique cynical way. Yeah, I think you will end up

892
00:50:21,396 --> 00:50:24,396
Speaker 1: with a culture which is eighty to ninety percent inauthentic,

893
00:50:24,756 --> 00:50:27,876
Speaker 1: in a bifurcated culture which celebrates the ten or fifteen

894
00:50:27,956 --> 00:50:31,036
Speaker 1: to twenty percent remaining, and they will set up their

895
00:50:31,036 --> 00:50:37,636
Speaker 1: own economy and celebrate their for lack of better word, authenticity. Yeah,

896
00:50:37,796 --> 00:50:39,236
Speaker 1: you're going to get to the point where you're gonna

897
00:50:39,236 --> 00:50:41,796
Speaker 1: have artists say they will say on their records, there's

898
00:50:41,836 --> 00:50:45,996
Speaker 1: no auto tune on this record, you know, like the

899
00:50:46,116 --> 00:50:50,956
Speaker 1: performance you hear we actually recorded. Yeah, you know this

900
00:50:50,956 --> 00:50:55,156
Speaker 1: this photo is not airbrushed. And you see little glimmers

901
00:50:55,156 --> 00:50:58,796
Speaker 1: of that, like when famous actresses will post pictures with

902
00:50:58,836 --> 00:51:01,236
Speaker 1: no makeup. Yes, there's some.

903
00:51:01,516 --> 00:51:03,716
Speaker 3: There's Sam Anderson no makeup tour.

904
00:51:04,276 --> 00:51:08,196
Speaker 1: Sure, there's some acknowledgment of it all. But I do

905
00:51:08,236 --> 00:51:09,876
Speaker 1: think it's going to end in end up in a

906
00:51:09,916 --> 00:51:14,556
Speaker 1: bifurcating type of thing. Yeah, crasslely, it'll become a business model.

907
00:51:15,236 --> 00:51:17,236
Speaker 1: It's the thing that the real people will point at

908
00:51:17,276 --> 00:51:19,716
Speaker 1: the non real people and say they're not real. Yeah,

909
00:51:19,716 --> 00:51:21,516
Speaker 1: And the non real people will say, we're having a

910
00:51:21,516 --> 00:51:24,476
Speaker 1: lot more fun over here. Enjoy your no makeup and

911
00:51:24,636 --> 00:51:27,316
Speaker 1: enjoy your no auto tune. So we're over here having

912
00:51:27,316 --> 00:51:28,956
Speaker 1: a great party. And oh, by the way, we're on

913
00:51:29,076 --> 00:51:32,316
Speaker 1: all the major media platforms because it's all about clicks.

914
00:51:32,356 --> 00:51:33,916
Speaker 1: So as long as we get clicks, we don't care

915
00:51:33,956 --> 00:51:37,716
Speaker 1: what you think, because clicks are the new cast. Yeah,

916
00:51:38,076 --> 00:51:42,436
Speaker 1: so that's the cynic in me. But I do feel

917
00:51:42,596 --> 00:51:47,036
Speaker 1: and make one last grand prognostication, which is, I do

918
00:51:47,116 --> 00:51:50,676
Speaker 1: think you're gonna see the old media system visa the

919
00:51:50,796 --> 00:51:57,596
Speaker 1: how it interlaces with entertainment. Pick your poison, Grammys, Oscars, Emmys,

920
00:51:58,396 --> 00:52:01,876
Speaker 1: MTV Awards. I'm not just talking about ratings. I think

921
00:52:01,916 --> 00:52:05,996
Speaker 1: that whole system of elites basically picking and choosing winners

922
00:52:06,036 --> 00:52:09,116
Speaker 1: or losers is about to explode. Yeah, I'm not saying

923
00:52:09,196 --> 00:52:11,756
Speaker 1: it's going to vanish, but I think it's about to explode.

924
00:52:12,036 --> 00:52:15,036
Speaker 1: I think we've reached the tolerance point for the deception

925
00:52:15,196 --> 00:52:17,396
Speaker 1: of it only. And I'm not saying that people don't

926
00:52:17,396 --> 00:52:19,876
Speaker 1: win awards. I want awards. I'm proud to say I've

927
00:52:19,916 --> 00:52:23,796
Speaker 1: won a couple Grammys. Yeah, but that system has become

928
00:52:23,956 --> 00:52:28,196
Speaker 1: so burdened by the weight of artifice that it can't

929
00:52:28,236 --> 00:52:29,436
Speaker 1: longer sustain itself.

930
00:52:30,636 --> 00:52:33,156
Speaker 3: What markers will we use? Though, As if you put

931
00:52:33,196 --> 00:52:36,676
Speaker 3: yourself in a journalist's seat. A lot of the times

932
00:52:36,716 --> 00:52:39,316
Speaker 3: when we write the intros for this show, we'll say,

933
00:52:39,756 --> 00:52:44,436
Speaker 3: you know, so and so artists three time Grammy Award winner,

934
00:52:44,556 --> 00:52:47,396
Speaker 3: Like when you were talking about Diane Warren, you listed

935
00:52:47,516 --> 00:52:52,716
Speaker 3: off her many awards. If those shows, those old institutions

936
00:52:52,796 --> 00:52:57,196
Speaker 3: blow up and disappear, and they're already you know, irrelevant,

937
00:52:57,396 --> 00:53:01,876
Speaker 3: very close to it, and there's no more platinum albums

938
00:53:01,956 --> 00:53:06,556
Speaker 3: like you know, eminem comes out in two thousand and

939
00:53:06,596 --> 00:53:10,796
Speaker 3: three and goes like triple platinum on the day that's gone.

940
00:53:11,796 --> 00:53:14,156
Speaker 3: So what will be the markers of success?

941
00:53:15,436 --> 00:53:17,236
Speaker 1: I know it's a hard thing because I think you're

942
00:53:17,236 --> 00:53:19,596
Speaker 1: asking a great question, but I think you'll ultimately you

943
00:53:19,796 --> 00:53:22,876
Speaker 1: I guess I'm personalizing it. I think you look, you

944
00:53:22,916 --> 00:53:25,596
Speaker 1: would survey the landscape, and you will see who has influence.

945
00:53:26,556 --> 00:53:26,876
Speaker 3: Yeah.

946
00:53:27,796 --> 00:53:32,276
Speaker 1: Using myself as an example, right under the old system,

947
00:53:32,556 --> 00:53:35,996
Speaker 1: I was told repeatedly for fifteen to twenty years of

948
00:53:35,996 --> 00:53:40,316
Speaker 1: my life, my influence was gone, my value was severely diminished.

949
00:53:40,396 --> 00:53:43,676
Speaker 1: What value I had was in the past, and so

950
00:53:43,796 --> 00:53:45,996
Speaker 1: my only value in the present was to reap the past.

951
00:53:46,796 --> 00:53:49,036
Speaker 1: I was told this repeatedly by some of the most

952
00:53:49,036 --> 00:53:53,116
Speaker 1: famous and influential people in the music business. No joke

953
00:53:53,556 --> 00:53:55,836
Speaker 1: in boardrooms where they just looked at me and said,

954
00:53:56,676 --> 00:54:00,036
Speaker 1: here's where you are, take it or leave it. I refuse.

955
00:54:00,476 --> 00:54:03,956
Speaker 1: I thought I stuck my crazy foot in the ground,

956
00:54:04,116 --> 00:54:06,556
Speaker 1: and I think now you see that I do have

957
00:54:06,636 --> 00:54:08,716
Speaker 1: more influence than they would have given me credit for.

958
00:54:09,636 --> 00:54:14,836
Speaker 1: It's hard to quantify what that influence is. Yeah, in

959
00:54:14,876 --> 00:54:16,956
Speaker 1: the old guard it would have been well so and

960
00:54:16,996 --> 00:54:20,316
Speaker 1: so mentioned you in an interview or your outu the

961
00:54:20,436 --> 00:54:25,356
Speaker 1: number number four most influential alternative record of nineteen ninety three.

962
00:54:25,956 --> 00:54:28,916
Speaker 1: No one gives a shit about any of that anymore.

963
00:54:30,236 --> 00:54:32,436
Speaker 1: So it's you almost have to do a daily read

964
00:54:32,476 --> 00:54:34,796
Speaker 1: of who actually can put their thumb on the scale

965
00:54:34,796 --> 00:54:39,076
Speaker 1: and move something. And I'll bring it back selfishly to

966
00:54:39,116 --> 00:54:44,676
Speaker 1: the podcast. My voice in the podcast is important, not

967
00:54:44,836 --> 00:54:48,276
Speaker 1: because it's me, but because I have the authority to

968
00:54:48,356 --> 00:54:51,676
Speaker 1: stand there and have these conversations. You don't even have

969
00:54:51,756 --> 00:54:55,036
Speaker 1: to like my music, buy my music, care about me

970
00:54:55,076 --> 00:54:58,836
Speaker 1: as an artist, care that I'm a father and an entrepreneur,

971
00:54:59,596 --> 00:55:02,436
Speaker 1: but you cannot deny that I've spent thirty five years

972
00:55:02,516 --> 00:55:06,996
Speaker 1: in the game. Yeah, okay, I know the game really well,

973
00:55:07,116 --> 00:55:08,996
Speaker 1: and by the way, I'm on the record speaking of

974
00:55:09,116 --> 00:55:10,756
Speaker 1: about the game for thirty five years.

975
00:55:10,836 --> 00:55:11,076
Speaker 3: Yep.

976
00:55:11,916 --> 00:55:14,316
Speaker 1: So just the ability to stand in that forest and

977
00:55:14,356 --> 00:55:17,636
Speaker 1: say I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree

978
00:55:17,676 --> 00:55:20,756
Speaker 1: with me, in fact, go ahead, but at least I

979
00:55:20,796 --> 00:55:22,956
Speaker 1: have a right to stand here. That's a different type

980
00:55:22,956 --> 00:55:25,436
Speaker 1: of authority. Has nothing to do with record sales. It

981
00:55:25,476 --> 00:55:27,556
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with whether my saw on the

982
00:55:27,636 --> 00:55:31,356
Speaker 1: chart that is the yes. But I'm what I'm after

983
00:55:31,556 --> 00:55:35,956
Speaker 1: is this is where the legacy media is so flat

984
00:55:35,996 --> 00:55:39,436
Speaker 1: footed because they're so reliant on the New York Times

985
00:55:39,436 --> 00:55:43,036
Speaker 1: system on down that has existed in our entire lifetimes.

986
00:55:43,596 --> 00:55:45,956
Speaker 1: The New York Times was like the Pope, and then

987
00:55:45,996 --> 00:55:50,316
Speaker 1: everything flowed down from the Pope. That shit has gone

988
00:55:50,476 --> 00:55:54,356
Speaker 1: and doesn't matter your political stripe or social stripes. You

989
00:55:54,396 --> 00:55:58,596
Speaker 1: can easily jump on YouTube or Twitter. I still call

990
00:55:58,636 --> 00:56:02,556
Speaker 1: it Twitter me too, Okay, God bless You can pretty

991
00:56:02,596 --> 00:56:05,396
Speaker 1: much figure out who can put their thumb on a

992
00:56:05,436 --> 00:56:08,956
Speaker 1: scale and actually move stuff. This is a new economy

993
00:56:08,956 --> 00:56:12,996
Speaker 1: that it's very unprecedented, and you can see the legacy

994
00:56:13,076 --> 00:56:17,796
Speaker 1: media is completely looking around saying what happened? They burned

995
00:56:17,836 --> 00:56:20,916
Speaker 1: out all the eastwards, They burned out all the cancel culture.

996
00:56:21,476 --> 00:56:24,396
Speaker 1: They lost that game, and now there's this whole new

997
00:56:24,476 --> 00:56:27,036
Speaker 1: rise of people and everyone's going, who the hell are

998
00:56:27,076 --> 00:56:29,596
Speaker 1: these people and why are they eating three hundred thousand views,

999
00:56:29,676 --> 00:56:32,916
Speaker 1: sixty thousand views, three in views? Who are these people

1000
00:56:34,396 --> 00:56:39,276
Speaker 1: in that economy? I'm actually quite valuable. So that's weird

1001
00:56:39,316 --> 00:56:42,596
Speaker 1: because again I'm speaking again personally. I was told for

1002
00:56:42,636 --> 00:56:45,956
Speaker 1: twenty years you have no value unless you ring the

1003
00:56:45,996 --> 00:56:51,596
Speaker 1: bell of nineteen seventy nine into eternity. And to be fair,

1004
00:56:51,916 --> 00:56:54,316
Speaker 1: even people in my personal life that know me, that

1005
00:56:54,436 --> 00:56:57,636
Speaker 1: have known me for twenty thirty years, they don't understand

1006
00:56:57,676 --> 00:57:02,596
Speaker 1: it because they're told by their family or their friends

1007
00:57:02,676 --> 00:57:06,916
Speaker 1: or their workbates that their assessment of my value. These

1008
00:57:06,956 --> 00:57:10,556
Speaker 1: are people in mind, they don't even get it. Yeah,

1009
00:57:10,676 --> 00:57:13,516
Speaker 1: they think I'm crazy, because I'm like, no, you'd understand.

1010
00:57:15,476 --> 00:57:18,476
Speaker 1: It's like, who can walk in a room and actually

1011
00:57:18,556 --> 00:57:20,716
Speaker 1: say something that has any meeting in a world that

1012
00:57:20,756 --> 00:57:23,796
Speaker 1: has very little meaning anymore because it's all been so gamed.

1013
00:57:24,476 --> 00:57:27,956
Speaker 1: It's like the whole world's Disneyland now right, It's not funny.

1014
00:57:27,996 --> 00:57:30,796
Speaker 1: At some point it gets a little. It's like I

1015
00:57:30,916 --> 00:57:32,636
Speaker 1: used to I was rummer. He went to Disneyland one

1016
00:57:32,636 --> 00:57:34,156
Speaker 1: time four days in a row, and I thought, oh

1017
00:57:34,156 --> 00:57:36,196
Speaker 1: my god, I love Disneyland. But four days in a row,

1018
00:57:36,276 --> 00:57:40,236
Speaker 1: I start to lose my mind with It's a small world. Okay,

1019
00:57:40,236 --> 00:57:41,636
Speaker 1: that's what had to me. It's like we're all in

1020
00:57:41,676 --> 00:57:45,716
Speaker 1: Disneyland day after day after date, like and we can't

1021
00:57:45,756 --> 00:57:50,956
Speaker 1: get out of it. The screaming headlines, the hyper politicization

1022
00:57:51,156 --> 00:57:55,596
Speaker 1: of every facet of our society. It doesn't matter your politics,

1023
00:57:55,636 --> 00:57:59,996
Speaker 1: we're just all sort of hired. So at some point

1024
00:57:59,996 --> 00:58:02,436
Speaker 1: you look around and go, I just want a quiet

1025
00:58:02,476 --> 00:58:05,756
Speaker 1: song and a quiet hymn or or a treat to

1026
00:58:05,836 --> 00:58:09,676
Speaker 1: sit under. Yes, So of course in the digital landscape

1027
00:58:09,676 --> 00:58:12,556
Speaker 1: we're going to find those voices and those people, which

1028
00:58:12,596 --> 00:58:15,836
Speaker 1: is why anachronistically doing a podcast which feels more like

1029
00:58:15,876 --> 00:58:20,116
Speaker 1: a PBS special from nineteen seventy two than twenty twenty

1030
00:58:20,116 --> 00:58:23,316
Speaker 1: five is gaining really good traction because totally it feels

1031
00:58:23,396 --> 00:58:26,116
Speaker 1: like just a nice, quiet poem where two people can

1032
00:58:26,156 --> 00:58:29,116
Speaker 1: have a conversation about stuff that is important. And now

1033
00:58:29,196 --> 00:58:30,956
Speaker 1: you know how I know it's important because I know

1034
00:58:31,036 --> 00:58:35,676
Speaker 1: it's important. It's life. It's like read Sanskrit. It's like

1035
00:58:35,676 --> 00:58:40,276
Speaker 1: it's there all the way back, four thousand years life, Love, Ambition,

1036
00:58:40,996 --> 00:58:43,996
Speaker 1: you know, Blue, too close to the Sun. This shit's

1037
00:58:44,116 --> 00:58:45,156
Speaker 1: never going to get old.

1038
00:58:45,636 --> 00:58:48,556
Speaker 3: No, you're so right. For me, it seemed like a

1039
00:58:48,556 --> 00:58:52,796
Speaker 3: big turning point was your twenty seventeen appearance on Rogan.

1040
00:58:53,596 --> 00:58:57,316
Speaker 3: I feel like that really showed all of us this

1041
00:58:57,516 --> 00:59:02,796
Speaker 3: like really thoughtful, eloquent the elder statesman within the business.

1042
00:59:02,916 --> 00:59:06,036
Speaker 3: It showed us a new side of Billy Corgan. That

1043
00:59:06,236 --> 00:59:09,116
Speaker 3: was my experience. I don't know if everyone had that experience,

1044
00:59:09,236 --> 00:59:11,316
Speaker 3: but I was watching it with my husband the other

1045
00:59:11,436 --> 00:59:15,396
Speaker 3: night and he's like, damn, this guy's like smart, and

1046
00:59:15,436 --> 00:59:18,196
Speaker 3: I'm like, I know, it's crazy and he's got like

1047
00:59:18,276 --> 00:59:22,156
Speaker 3: these crazy stories. So what was a turning point for

1048
00:59:22,236 --> 00:59:23,996
Speaker 3: you where you were like, I want to do this.

1049
00:59:24,076 --> 00:59:25,956
Speaker 3: I want to get into the whole podcasting thing.

1050
00:59:26,036 --> 00:59:30,996
Speaker 1: I didn't. Honestly, I didn't particularly have any yen for it, right, Yeah, Yeah,

1051
00:59:31,076 --> 00:59:37,836
Speaker 1: that's a good word. I did a podcast a few

1052
00:59:37,876 --> 00:59:41,996
Speaker 1: years back, built around our album Autumn at thirty three songs.

1053
00:59:42,316 --> 00:59:45,676
Speaker 1: I did the podcast. Nobody cared. Nobody was ringing me

1054
00:59:45,836 --> 00:59:48,516
Speaker 1: up to do a podcast deal, so I thought, Okay,

1055
00:59:48,516 --> 00:59:51,396
Speaker 1: that's just not for me. Although I enjoyed it. I

1056
00:59:51,476 --> 00:59:55,236
Speaker 1: was very intrigued with what Rick Deiato does. Yes, and

1057
00:59:55,316 --> 00:59:57,636
Speaker 1: he's pivoted a couple times, and he's even pivoting again.

1058
00:59:57,796 --> 01:00:01,876
Speaker 1: Very smart guy, very capable of musician and musical mind

1059
01:00:01,916 --> 01:00:05,316
Speaker 1: as well. And both Jimmy and I from the Pumpkins

1060
01:00:05,316 --> 01:00:08,036
Speaker 1: have had the honor of being interviewed by Rick.

1061
01:00:08,196 --> 01:00:08,436
Speaker 3: Yep.

1062
01:00:09,396 --> 01:00:12,436
Speaker 1: But I think what Rick showed is there are a

1063
01:00:12,476 --> 01:00:14,116
Speaker 1: lot of musicians out there who just want to hear

1064
01:00:14,116 --> 01:00:17,876
Speaker 1: about music, not through the prism of the drama and

1065
01:00:18,196 --> 01:00:20,476
Speaker 1: and tell us a good tour story, Motley Crue one

1066
01:00:20,556 --> 01:00:23,676
Speaker 1: more time, tell us how you actually recorded that bass sound,

1067
01:00:23,716 --> 01:00:25,756
Speaker 1: because people are still talking about that bass sound forty

1068
01:00:25,796 --> 01:00:28,796
Speaker 1: years later. And I thought, Okay, if there's a market

1069
01:00:28,836 --> 01:00:31,036
Speaker 1: there for what Rick's after on the deep dive kind of,

1070
01:00:31,116 --> 01:00:32,916
Speaker 1: let's call it the nerd side of the equation, which

1071
01:00:32,956 --> 01:00:37,116
Speaker 1: I love. There's no distance sing nerd. Then I know

1072
01:00:37,156 --> 01:00:39,596
Speaker 1: there's this other side of the conversation, which more gets

1073
01:00:39,596 --> 01:00:43,236
Speaker 1: into the interior life of a writer and by extension,

1074
01:00:43,276 --> 01:00:47,516
Speaker 1: the interior life of an actor or a scientist. And

1075
01:00:47,556 --> 01:00:50,356
Speaker 1: so that's my ultimate ambition is to broaden the scope

1076
01:00:50,476 --> 01:00:54,276
Speaker 1: past even past the arts where you can talk to anybody,

1077
01:00:54,356 --> 01:00:57,876
Speaker 1: whether there's a successful podcast or a successful race car driver,

1078
01:00:58,636 --> 01:01:01,476
Speaker 1: because I think that interior life discussion is something that's

1079
01:01:01,516 --> 01:01:04,556
Speaker 1: really fresh. If you can do it in a non

1080
01:01:04,916 --> 01:01:08,396
Speaker 1: click baity way, then I think we all benefit from that.

1081
01:01:08,916 --> 01:01:10,996
Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of the whole setup. And then

1082
01:01:10,996 --> 01:01:12,676
Speaker 1: the other part of the story is I had no

1083
01:01:12,756 --> 01:01:14,836
Speaker 1: plans in doing it, and then I was on Bill

1084
01:01:14,876 --> 01:01:16,036
Speaker 1: Maher's show Club Random.

1085
01:01:16,516 --> 01:01:16,796
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1086
01:01:17,196 --> 01:01:19,716
Speaker 1: I did the appearance. They pulled me aside and said

1087
01:01:19,756 --> 01:01:21,836
Speaker 1: we'd like you to be a host on his new

1088
01:01:21,836 --> 01:01:23,076
Speaker 1: podcast network he's doing.

1089
01:01:23,156 --> 01:01:23,876
Speaker 3: Wow, that's cool.

1090
01:01:23,996 --> 01:01:27,876
Speaker 1: Yeah. And one thing that struck me right away, and

1091
01:01:27,916 --> 01:01:32,236
Speaker 1: I've known Bill Frover twenty five years, is Bill, you know,

1092
01:01:32,476 --> 01:01:35,116
Speaker 1: is very much a free speech guy. Yes, and I'm

1093
01:01:35,156 --> 01:01:37,356
Speaker 1: a free speech I'm not a free speech absolutist, but

1094
01:01:37,356 --> 01:01:39,236
Speaker 1: I'm very much a free speech person. I think our

1095
01:01:39,236 --> 01:01:44,276
Speaker 1: society ultimately benefits from open dialogue, however, uncomfortable that we

1096
01:01:44,356 --> 01:01:46,116
Speaker 1: always come out on the better if we just are

1097
01:01:46,156 --> 01:01:48,996
Speaker 1: willing to have the dialogue. Like I hear you and

1098
01:01:49,076 --> 01:01:52,916
Speaker 1: I agree, but I disagree. But yeah, anyway, sorry over explainings.

1099
01:01:52,916 --> 01:01:57,916
Speaker 1: But and even just as a sidelong illustration of that.

1100
01:01:58,956 --> 01:02:00,876
Speaker 1: You know, I just did the appearance on Rogan and

1101
01:02:01,596 --> 01:02:04,676
Speaker 1: a new One. Yeah, and he's done very very well.

1102
01:02:04,796 --> 01:02:07,236
Speaker 1: You know, in the economy of podcasting, you know, lots

1103
01:02:07,236 --> 01:02:11,956
Speaker 1: of people watched have watched it. But within twelve hours

1104
01:02:11,956 --> 01:02:14,636
Speaker 1: of my appearance on there here come the fans who

1105
01:02:14,716 --> 01:02:17,356
Speaker 1: are mad at me for being on Rogan's podcast. Yes,

1106
01:02:18,516 --> 01:02:22,076
Speaker 1: we didn't talk politics at all in two hours and

1107
01:02:22,116 --> 01:02:24,316
Speaker 1: forty five minutes and going back to being you know

1108
01:02:24,356 --> 01:02:26,676
Speaker 1: why I wanted to work with Bill and Bill's stance

1109
01:02:26,756 --> 01:02:30,476
Speaker 1: on free speech. There's no politics in my podcast. There's

1110
01:02:30,476 --> 01:02:32,436
Speaker 1: no politics at all. I mean, we talk a little

1111
01:02:32,476 --> 01:02:35,876
Speaker 1: bit about it with Tom Morello, but even then it's yeah,

1112
01:02:36,236 --> 01:02:40,396
Speaker 1: more philosophical than antipicating on current events. Yeah. I don't

1113
01:02:40,436 --> 01:02:43,156
Speaker 1: want the artistic sphere, and I'm going to extend that

1114
01:02:43,196 --> 01:02:45,516
Speaker 1: to scientists as well. I don't want the artistic sphere

1115
01:02:45,556 --> 01:02:48,796
Speaker 1: that I'm after to be poisoned by people's polemic need

1116
01:02:49,236 --> 01:02:51,716
Speaker 1: to pick winners and losers. I want us all to win.

1117
01:02:51,756 --> 01:02:53,916
Speaker 1: That's why I want That's why I called it what

1118
01:02:54,036 --> 01:02:56,436
Speaker 1: it is. I really think these are magnificent people that

1119
01:02:56,516 --> 01:02:58,836
Speaker 1: I want to share with the audience. From my perspective, okay,

1120
01:02:59,636 --> 01:03:01,636
Speaker 1: but when you see people trying to go after you

1121
01:03:02,116 --> 01:03:06,236
Speaker 1: because quote unquote, you know, I love these buzzwords, disinformation

1122
01:03:06,516 --> 01:03:09,396
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. I mean, it's unbelievable to me.

1123
01:03:09,676 --> 01:03:14,356
Speaker 1: First off, Joe's number one podcast host in the world

1124
01:03:14,636 --> 01:03:19,236
Speaker 1: for years, for many years. Second of all, Joe's been

1125
01:03:19,276 --> 01:03:24,196
Speaker 1: a public person for thirty going on thirty five years.

1126
01:03:24,716 --> 01:03:29,396
Speaker 1: So I'm not supposed to go on somebody's podcast because

1127
01:03:29,636 --> 01:03:31,836
Speaker 1: a percentage, it could be fifty percent, it could be

1128
01:03:31,836 --> 01:03:34,156
Speaker 1: one hundred. I don't care. A percentage of the US

1129
01:03:34,276 --> 01:03:40,076
Speaker 1: population has an issue with the man's politic and somehow,

1130
01:03:40,276 --> 01:03:43,916
Speaker 1: by being on his podcast and talking about nothing about politics,

1131
01:03:44,236 --> 01:03:49,716
Speaker 1: I'm somehow endorsing his position. Joe doesn't even know what

1132
01:03:49,716 --> 01:03:52,436
Speaker 1: my political position is. He didn't even ask me. There

1133
01:03:52,476 --> 01:03:55,156
Speaker 1: was no qualification of do you agree with me or

1134
01:03:55,196 --> 01:03:57,956
Speaker 1: you disagree with me. Let's just come on and talk

1135
01:03:57,956 --> 01:04:00,036
Speaker 1: about whatever we're going to talk about. That to me

1136
01:04:00,156 --> 01:04:01,876
Speaker 1: is not a society I want to be part of.

1137
01:04:02,556 --> 01:04:05,276
Speaker 1: And I would say we've had about seven to ten

1138
01:04:05,356 --> 01:04:09,556
Speaker 1: years of a society and it's not working. It's not working,

1139
01:04:09,876 --> 01:04:12,916
Speaker 1: So why people persist is beyond me. But they're going

1140
01:04:12,996 --> 01:04:16,636
Speaker 1: to persist. I acknowledge that let them persist, but I

1141
01:04:16,636 --> 01:04:18,676
Speaker 1: think they're going to find it's a losing strategy.

1142
01:04:20,356 --> 01:04:24,236
Speaker 3: Do you seem very aware which I appreciate of how

1143
01:04:24,316 --> 01:04:28,276
Speaker 3: each outlet, each podcast is different and the host approaches

1144
01:04:28,316 --> 01:04:31,196
Speaker 3: it differently. So for Rick Biatto, you sit down and

1145
01:04:31,236 --> 01:04:33,556
Speaker 3: you know you're going to get like a really intense

1146
01:04:33,676 --> 01:04:38,036
Speaker 3: technical conversation about choices you've made artistically, and you seem

1147
01:04:38,116 --> 01:04:41,516
Speaker 3: prepared for that and up for it too, which is great.

1148
01:04:42,476 --> 01:04:47,156
Speaker 3: With Bill Maher, what's it like being in his little club? Random?

1149
01:04:47,196 --> 01:04:52,116
Speaker 3: Like he's like smoking blunts, which is so crazy, and

1150
01:04:52,236 --> 01:04:54,996
Speaker 3: like doing shots, Like, what's it like being right there?

1151
01:04:55,756 --> 01:04:59,836
Speaker 1: Well, you know, my father was a weed smoker and

1152
01:04:59,916 --> 01:05:02,796
Speaker 1: smoked continuously, so it's been a while since I had

1153
01:05:02,796 --> 01:05:06,116
Speaker 1: a good contact high. So as Bill smoke in a way,

1154
01:05:06,156 --> 01:05:08,796
Speaker 1: I start to get a little bit buzzed, yeah, and

1155
01:05:08,836 --> 01:05:12,756
Speaker 1: then thinking, like, you know, I'm pretty much sober person

1156
01:05:12,836 --> 01:05:15,196
Speaker 1: in life, So I'm standing there thinking, am I about

1157
01:05:15,236 --> 01:05:18,676
Speaker 1: to do something stoned? Which I'm not used to being stoned?

1158
01:05:19,116 --> 01:05:20,676
Speaker 1: Am I about to do something is gonna get me,

1159
01:05:20,956 --> 01:05:23,676
Speaker 1: you know, blown up here in public? So there were

1160
01:05:23,676 --> 01:05:26,156
Speaker 1: times where I was kind of like, as long as

1161
01:05:26,196 --> 01:05:27,876
Speaker 1: I was afraid to say something. I was afraid to

1162
01:05:27,876 --> 01:05:31,516
Speaker 1: say it wrong. Yes, but I, like I said, I've

1163
01:05:31,516 --> 01:05:34,076
Speaker 1: known Bill for a long time, and and Bill's a

1164
01:05:34,196 --> 01:05:37,756
Speaker 1: very interesting mind in that, like all great professional comedians,

1165
01:05:37,756 --> 01:05:40,676
Speaker 1: you're never quite sure where they're gonna go. H It's

1166
01:05:40,676 --> 01:05:42,596
Speaker 1: not that they're always after the joke, but they're kind

1167
01:05:42,596 --> 01:05:45,076
Speaker 1: of after the bit. Yeah, take me to the bit.

1168
01:05:45,876 --> 01:05:50,796
Speaker 1: So we started talking about Gilligan and masturbation and it

1169
01:05:50,876 --> 01:05:56,676
Speaker 1: was interesting. Yeah, it got pretty interesting, but it reminded

1170
01:05:56,716 --> 01:05:59,716
Speaker 1: me of about eight thousand other stoner conversations I've had.

1171
01:05:59,636 --> 01:06:02,836
Speaker 3: So yeah, which is kind of perfect for a podcast.

1172
01:06:03,236 --> 01:06:06,356
Speaker 1: Sure, I think that that's fun. I think it's pretty

1173
01:06:06,356 --> 01:06:08,836
Speaker 1: brilliant that Bill's got this super serious side on his

1174
01:06:08,876 --> 01:06:10,676
Speaker 1: age Oh show, and then there's the other side that

1175
01:06:10,676 --> 01:06:13,676
Speaker 1: it wants to have a laugh and be amused and

1176
01:06:13,876 --> 01:06:16,756
Speaker 1: or irritated, which he's really good at being irritated totally.

1177
01:06:17,196 --> 01:06:19,556
Speaker 3: And then going on, Howard, what's that been like for you?

1178
01:06:19,676 --> 01:06:23,196
Speaker 3: Are you nervous before these appearances or you seem very

1179
01:06:23,276 --> 01:06:26,236
Speaker 3: much at ease, but are you in your head about

1180
01:06:26,276 --> 01:06:28,516
Speaker 3: it to where you're thinking about the audience and you're

1181
01:06:28,556 --> 01:06:29,996
Speaker 3: thinking about the number of people.

1182
01:06:29,756 --> 01:06:32,996
Speaker 1: Watching No, not at all. No, I if I could

1183
01:06:32,996 --> 01:06:36,836
Speaker 1: give any insight. When you're with the highly skilled interviewer,

1184
01:06:37,956 --> 01:06:41,116
Speaker 1: you learn to just let them lead you where they

1185
01:06:41,156 --> 01:06:45,076
Speaker 1: want to go. Most interviewers are not that skilled, and

1186
01:06:45,116 --> 01:06:48,436
Speaker 1: so you learn in your media years to kind of

1187
01:06:48,436 --> 01:06:51,476
Speaker 1: push it where you want it to go. Yes, great

1188
01:06:51,476 --> 01:06:53,676
Speaker 1: interviewers have a way of leading you, and you just

1189
01:06:53,756 --> 01:06:56,676
Speaker 1: let them lead you. Yeah, you have to trust that

1190
01:06:56,716 --> 01:06:59,316
Speaker 1: they're not going to try to pull a gotcha. So

1191
01:06:59,836 --> 01:07:03,396
Speaker 1: with somebody like Howard, I trust Howard and I'll tell

1192
01:07:03,436 --> 01:07:07,636
Speaker 1: things Howard. I'll tell things to Howard. I wouldn't say anybody.

1193
01:07:07,436 --> 01:07:09,676
Speaker 3: Why to me that thinks Okay, hey, he knows how

1194
01:07:09,676 --> 01:07:11,396
Speaker 3: many people are listening, and he knows this is going

1195
01:07:11,476 --> 01:07:12,636
Speaker 3: to get a lot of airplay.

1196
01:07:13,036 --> 01:07:14,636
Speaker 1: No, no, I know he's not going to ask me

1197
01:07:14,636 --> 01:07:17,676
Speaker 1: to fuck up follow up question. Oh what do you

1198
01:07:17,716 --> 01:07:20,116
Speaker 1: mean he's not going to ask me the clickbait question

1199
01:07:20,156 --> 01:07:25,436
Speaker 1: that would follow the revelation. Huh that It's just call

1200
01:07:25,476 --> 01:07:29,116
Speaker 1: it a certain type of trust. Yeah, I do remember.

1201
01:07:29,196 --> 01:07:32,996
Speaker 1: Like when I was on Joe's show Last Time, Yeah,

1202
01:07:32,996 --> 01:07:35,236
Speaker 1: seven years ago, I told him a story about finding

1203
01:07:35,276 --> 01:07:38,116
Speaker 1: a sawed off shotgun under my father's bed, which my

1204
01:07:38,156 --> 01:07:41,076
Speaker 1: father heard and had had a funny response to. But

1205
01:07:42,796 --> 01:07:44,436
Speaker 1: that's not a story I would ever told. But I

1206
01:07:44,476 --> 01:07:47,596
Speaker 1: also felt I could tell it. Joe, Yeah, and he laughed.

1207
01:07:47,956 --> 01:07:50,316
Speaker 1: Oh calculus in my mind like, oh, this will be good.

1208
01:07:51,716 --> 01:07:51,956
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1209
01:07:52,156 --> 01:07:53,956
Speaker 1: Let me put he say this way. If I really

1210
01:07:53,996 --> 01:07:58,036
Speaker 1: wanted attention, just imagine the things that I know that

1211
01:07:58,116 --> 01:07:59,316
Speaker 1: I have never said.

1212
01:07:59,716 --> 01:08:01,156
Speaker 3: Right, what you're saving for the book.

1213
01:08:01,356 --> 01:08:03,756
Speaker 1: I'm talking about things I know about famous people that

1214
01:08:03,836 --> 01:08:04,556
Speaker 1: I've never said.

1215
01:08:05,116 --> 01:08:07,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I want to know. Well, I got

1216
01:08:07,916 --> 01:08:13,996
Speaker 3: to ask all that, So are you actually writing a book?

1217
01:08:14,116 --> 01:08:15,596
Speaker 3: Is that something you're actively working on?

1218
01:08:15,676 --> 01:08:17,556
Speaker 1: In fact, in fact, just before I came out with you,

1219
01:08:17,596 --> 01:08:20,436
Speaker 1: I was working on my book. I was fixing the

1220
01:08:20,516 --> 01:08:23,076
Speaker 1: whole batch of really poor writing. But yeah, I've been

1221
01:08:23,116 --> 01:08:25,076
Speaker 1: working on my book, and my hope is to finish

1222
01:08:25,116 --> 01:08:27,636
Speaker 1: this year a book basically between the ages of zero

1223
01:08:27,716 --> 01:08:31,076
Speaker 1: and nineteen wow, before I would take some time off

1224
01:08:31,116 --> 01:08:33,636
Speaker 1: and then start, you know, nineteen onto whatever.

1225
01:08:34,156 --> 01:08:38,876
Speaker 3: How are you remembering things? And do you trust your memory?

1226
01:08:38,996 --> 01:08:43,636
Speaker 1: I have an insane memory. I do. I don't know

1227
01:08:43,636 --> 01:08:47,956
Speaker 1: if that's inborn, but I just do. I think part

1228
01:08:47,956 --> 01:08:50,556
Speaker 1: of it was wanting to remember all these things that

1229
01:08:50,596 --> 01:08:53,356
Speaker 1: had been done to me in some sort of need

1230
01:08:53,396 --> 01:08:57,036
Speaker 1: to catalog I don't know, like the Man in the

1231
01:08:57,076 --> 01:08:58,916
Speaker 1: Iron Mask or something. I felt like I needed to

1232
01:08:58,956 --> 01:09:01,836
Speaker 1: write it all down. Yeah, so I did in my

1233
01:09:01,916 --> 01:09:05,116
Speaker 1: brain and I've kept it. Even my wife recently said,

1234
01:09:05,916 --> 01:09:07,636
Speaker 1: it'll be good if you finish this so you can

1235
01:09:07,876 --> 01:09:09,076
Speaker 1: finally let these things go.

1236
01:09:10,276 --> 01:09:11,316
Speaker 3: Do you think that'll happen.

1237
01:09:12,156 --> 01:09:14,236
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, because I think it's

1238
01:09:14,276 --> 01:09:16,476
Speaker 1: the act of putting something out in public that creates

1239
01:09:16,476 --> 01:09:19,636
Speaker 1: the alchemy for that. As long as it's private, it

1240
01:09:19,996 --> 01:09:23,436
Speaker 1: sort of remains kind of a secret. And having done

1241
01:09:23,476 --> 01:09:26,076
Speaker 1: it before publicly, like we were talking about with the

1242
01:09:26,116 --> 01:09:27,796
Speaker 1: album side of These Dream I do know that there's

1243
01:09:27,796 --> 01:09:28,676
Speaker 1: something that happens.

1244
01:09:28,716 --> 01:09:29,676
Speaker 3: It's yea.

1245
01:09:30,636 --> 01:09:33,236
Speaker 1: It puts an electrical charge in the air, and if

1246
01:09:33,276 --> 01:09:36,236
Speaker 1: it's true, it puts a really interesting electrical charge in

1247
01:09:36,236 --> 01:09:41,996
Speaker 1: the air because again it's authentic. Yeah, I know. Well,

1248
01:09:42,116 --> 01:09:44,676
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I assume or I feel that

1249
01:09:44,756 --> 01:09:47,956
Speaker 1: when people do read my book or books, they're gonna

1250
01:09:47,996 --> 01:09:49,556
Speaker 1: have a hard time believing a lot of what they

1251
01:09:49,876 --> 01:09:52,676
Speaker 1: they'll read. But I know that this stuff happened, so

1252
01:09:52,756 --> 01:09:54,316
Speaker 1: that's all I know. But there are times when I'm

1253
01:09:54,356 --> 01:09:56,116
Speaker 1: writing it, and i'll read it back. I'm like, Wow,

1254
01:09:56,476 --> 01:09:59,076
Speaker 1: it's hard to believe that this act stuff actually happened.

1255
01:09:59,476 --> 01:10:02,756
Speaker 1: And sometimes I'll read my wife passages and I'll like

1256
01:10:02,836 --> 01:10:05,276
Speaker 1: and I'll I'll kind of get her reaction and I'm like,

1257
01:10:05,316 --> 01:10:07,436
Speaker 1: it's crazy that this actually happens. She's like, I know,

1258
01:10:07,476 --> 01:10:10,276
Speaker 1: you've had a crazy life. Like there it is, you know.

1259
01:10:11,036 --> 01:10:14,236
Speaker 3: Yeah, is there anything else you want to talk about

1260
01:10:14,276 --> 01:10:16,836
Speaker 3: as far as the show about your process?

1261
01:10:17,316 --> 01:10:20,516
Speaker 1: I really the depth of this discussion. It's a lot

1262
01:10:20,516 --> 01:10:23,676
Speaker 1: of fun, and yeah, I hope people enjoy the show

1263
01:10:23,716 --> 01:10:26,196
Speaker 1: if they see it. It's a unique entity, and I

1264
01:10:26,236 --> 01:10:29,116
Speaker 1: think it's very much like my music. It'll win if

1265
01:10:29,116 --> 01:10:31,956
Speaker 1: it's unique, and it'll lose because it's too unique or something,

1266
01:10:31,996 --> 01:10:35,236
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm okay with that because I wouldn't

1267
01:10:35,276 --> 01:10:36,676
Speaker 1: want to do it any other way, I think, is

1268
01:10:36,676 --> 01:10:37,436
Speaker 1: what I'm after.

1269
01:10:37,756 --> 01:10:39,716
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fun. It seems like you're having a lot

1270
01:10:39,756 --> 01:10:42,036
Speaker 3: of fun, and it seems like you're comfortable. I like

1271
01:10:42,076 --> 01:10:42,916
Speaker 3: your cue cards.

1272
01:10:44,476 --> 01:10:47,756
Speaker 1: I'd like to ditch the Q cards as possible, but

1273
01:10:47,876 --> 01:10:50,916
Speaker 1: also I also I don't want to take my eyes

1274
01:10:50,956 --> 01:10:55,276
Speaker 1: off the guests. You know, they're rude about looking away.

1275
01:10:56,716 --> 01:10:58,236
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I don't know how. I haven't

1276
01:10:58,236 --> 01:10:59,956
Speaker 1: figured out how to sort that out.

1277
01:11:00,396 --> 01:11:02,476
Speaker 3: It's a lot. It's like, you know, you're balancing a

1278
01:11:02,476 --> 01:11:05,836
Speaker 3: lot because you're trying to, Like you said, expert interviewers

1279
01:11:06,316 --> 01:11:08,796
Speaker 3: can lead the guest in a way that they felt

1280
01:11:09,196 --> 01:11:10,636
Speaker 3: all held and comfortable.

1281
01:11:11,076 --> 01:11:13,716
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I go back to my own experiences

1282
01:11:13,756 --> 01:11:16,476
Speaker 1: where I would walk out and everything, well that was intense,

1283
01:11:16,516 --> 01:11:18,676
Speaker 1: but I enjoyed it, you know, kind of like this interview.

1284
01:11:18,716 --> 01:11:21,276
Speaker 1: It's like it's all good. I don't mind. I don't

1285
01:11:21,276 --> 01:11:23,236
Speaker 1: mind walking up to certain lines if I feel like

1286
01:11:23,276 --> 01:11:27,476
Speaker 1: the intention is to get to something fresh, you know.

1287
01:11:28,356 --> 01:11:30,556
Speaker 1: The other the other experience of being held up as

1288
01:11:30,596 --> 01:11:34,676
Speaker 1: clickbait is a weird, weird thing. And I'll give you

1289
01:11:34,756 --> 01:11:39,316
Speaker 1: one little inside hint on that I've learned to stop

1290
01:11:39,316 --> 01:11:43,316
Speaker 1: saying people's names. Yeah, I just don't say people's names

1291
01:11:43,356 --> 01:11:46,356
Speaker 1: because if I say their name, it's going to get

1292
01:11:46,356 --> 01:11:49,676
Speaker 1: clickbaited totally because they need the name for the clickbait.

1293
01:11:49,756 --> 01:11:51,356
Speaker 1: So I just don't say the name anymore.

1294
01:11:51,636 --> 01:11:52,516
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1295
01:11:52,596 --> 01:11:54,196
Speaker 1: They just made me a better I don't want to

1296
01:11:54,236 --> 01:11:57,796
Speaker 1: say liar, but they've just made a better Evaid, you know,

1297
01:11:57,836 --> 01:11:59,116
Speaker 1: I've just become more evasive.

1298
01:11:59,516 --> 01:12:02,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I get that, but it's smart. I would

1299
01:12:02,916 --> 01:12:06,796
Speaker 3: do the same thing. I wouldn't tell anyone anything I

1300
01:12:06,836 --> 01:12:07,676
Speaker 3: would like.

1301
01:12:07,996 --> 01:12:09,996
Speaker 1: I kind of like the public running into the wall

1302
01:12:09,996 --> 01:12:12,276
Speaker 1: part of it. It doesn't that part doesn't bother me.

1303
01:12:12,876 --> 01:12:16,236
Speaker 1: It's when it disinterpreted into something that it isn't right.

1304
01:12:16,956 --> 01:12:19,036
Speaker 3: Would you ever have anybody on the show and just

1305
01:12:19,116 --> 01:12:21,636
Speaker 3: like maybe somebody who you had beef with in the past,

1306
01:12:21,676 --> 01:12:24,036
Speaker 3: or maybe still have some sort of issue with, would

1307
01:12:24,076 --> 01:12:27,996
Speaker 3: you ever have them on and just like argue with them?

1308
01:12:28,156 --> 01:12:31,356
Speaker 1: It would depend on the subject. For example, it would

1309
01:12:31,356 --> 01:12:34,356
Speaker 1: be really interesting to have a discussion with Tom Morello

1310
01:12:34,396 --> 01:12:38,436
Speaker 1: about politics, but only if we lived in a society

1311
01:12:38,436 --> 01:12:41,076
Speaker 1: that would welcome the discussion and not penalize either one

1312
01:12:41,116 --> 01:12:44,196
Speaker 1: of us for having the discussion. Yes, well, pro believe

1313
01:12:44,236 --> 01:12:46,836
Speaker 1: in that society. So Tom and I can only have

1314
01:12:46,916 --> 01:12:50,476
Speaker 1: that discussion in private. And I think for somebody who

1315
01:12:50,516 --> 01:12:51,996
Speaker 1: had rolled their eyes and say, why do I want

1316
01:12:52,036 --> 01:12:55,156
Speaker 1: to listen to musicians talk about politics, I think that's

1317
01:12:55,196 --> 01:12:57,996
Speaker 1: a fair point. But musicians understand what it's like to

1318
01:12:57,996 --> 01:13:00,996
Speaker 1: stand behind the wizard's curtain. Musicians have access to a

1319
01:13:01,036 --> 01:13:03,116
Speaker 1: lot of information that most people would not know that

1320
01:13:03,236 --> 01:13:06,636
Speaker 1: musicians have access to. Tom even talks in his interview

1321
01:13:06,636 --> 01:13:09,676
Speaker 1: about how he worked for a sitting US senator. Yeah,

1322
01:13:09,996 --> 01:13:11,636
Speaker 1: that's that's an uncommon experience.

1323
01:13:11,716 --> 01:13:12,836
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was really interesting.

1324
01:13:12,876 --> 01:13:15,516
Speaker 1: Oh. I know some really highly placed people in the

1325
01:13:15,516 --> 01:13:17,356
Speaker 1: political sphere, and I know a lot of stuff that

1326
01:13:17,436 --> 01:13:20,596
Speaker 1: I wouldn't talk about because it's private information. But it

1327
01:13:20,636 --> 01:13:24,116
Speaker 1: certainly gives me a perspective on maybe the political world

1328
01:13:24,196 --> 01:13:26,996
Speaker 1: that most people wouldn't have. But when I ever discussed

1329
01:13:27,036 --> 01:13:29,756
Speaker 1: that in public, no fucking way. Yeah, because we don't

1330
01:13:29,756 --> 01:13:31,956
Speaker 1: live in a society that can maturely sit by and

1331
01:13:31,996 --> 01:13:35,036
Speaker 1: listen to two people talk about political perspectives in an

1332
01:13:35,036 --> 01:13:37,476
Speaker 1: open way that you go, okay, I hear you. Okay,

1333
01:13:37,596 --> 01:13:40,116
Speaker 1: that's good. Good, I learned something. No, it's like, oh

1334
01:13:40,156 --> 01:13:43,596
Speaker 1: you're good, You're bad. Yeah, And again back to the

1335
01:13:43,676 --> 01:13:46,556
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan thing. It's like, I mean when I see

1336
01:13:46,596 --> 01:13:49,436
Speaker 1: when I see my own fans writing words like misinformation,

1337
01:13:49,796 --> 01:13:52,556
Speaker 1: I mean, that's straight out of the CIA, buddy, you

1338
01:13:52,556 --> 01:13:55,036
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like I do buzzwords for

1339
01:13:55,076 --> 01:13:57,356
Speaker 1: a living. You know, rat in a cage, you know

1340
01:13:57,396 --> 01:14:00,236
Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like you can't play meme word

1341
01:14:00,276 --> 01:14:02,916
Speaker 1: games with somebody like me. That's what I do for

1342
01:14:02,996 --> 01:14:06,516
Speaker 1: a living. This idea that you're going to use words

1343
01:14:06,556 --> 01:14:12,156
Speaker 1: against me, like like the vague word of misinformation, It's like,

1344
01:14:12,316 --> 01:14:15,316
Speaker 1: what does that mean. It's a perfect word because nobody

1345
01:14:15,396 --> 01:14:20,716
Speaker 1: knows what it means, but everybody knows what it means. Yeah,

1346
01:14:21,196 --> 01:14:25,476
Speaker 1: so I I would love it. So I would have

1347
01:14:25,516 --> 01:14:28,116
Speaker 1: to be to the spirit of your question. It would

1348
01:14:28,116 --> 01:14:31,636
Speaker 1: have to be something that has of no consequence, like

1349
01:14:32,196 --> 01:14:35,036
Speaker 1: arguing over what's the better Judas priestylbum.

1350
01:14:34,596 --> 01:14:36,236
Speaker 3: Or something that'd be fun.

1351
01:14:36,716 --> 01:14:39,716
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure, Is that a business model? I don't know. Yeah.

1352
01:14:41,476 --> 01:14:43,396
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much Billy for coming on. I

1353
01:14:43,516 --> 01:14:46,916
Speaker 3: love talking to you. God bless and I can't wait

1354
01:14:46,956 --> 01:14:49,916
Speaker 3: for more of your episodes. Can't wait to see where

1355
01:14:49,956 --> 01:14:50,916
Speaker 3: you go as an interviewer.

1356
01:14:51,556 --> 01:14:53,276
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, God bless you. Thank you.

1357
01:14:56,236 --> 01:14:58,476
Speaker 2: Thanks to Billy Corgan for speaking his mind and opening

1358
01:14:58,556 --> 01:15:01,756
Speaker 2: up about his difficult history. You can listen to Corgan's

1359
01:15:01,796 --> 01:15:05,036
Speaker 2: new podcast, The Magnificent Others now on YouTube and all

1360
01:15:05,116 --> 01:15:08,316
Speaker 2: podcast platforms, and you can hear our favorite songs from

1361
01:15:08,356 --> 01:15:10,876
Speaker 2: Corgan and the Special Pumpkins on a playlist at Broken

1362
01:15:10,916 --> 01:15:14,036
Speaker 2: record podcast dot com. You see the video version of

1363
01:15:14,036 --> 01:15:17,596
Speaker 2: this episode. Visit YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast,

1364
01:15:18,076 --> 01:15:20,156
Speaker 2: and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the

1365
01:15:20,196 --> 01:15:23,236
Speaker 2: Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at

1366
01:15:23,356 --> 01:15:27,396
Speaker 2: broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose,

1367
01:15:27,476 --> 01:15:30,596
Speaker 2: with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our

1368
01:15:30,676 --> 01:15:34,396
Speaker 2: engineer is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production of

1369
01:15:34,516 --> 01:15:38,356
Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin,

1370
01:15:38,516 --> 01:15:42,756
Speaker 2: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast

1371
01:15:42,796 --> 01:15:45,836
Speaker 2: subscription that offers bonus content and ad free listening for

1372
01:15:45,956 --> 01:15:49,236
Speaker 2: four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on

1373
01:15:49,276 --> 01:15:53,196
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like this show, please

1374
01:15:53,236 --> 01:15:56,196
Speaker 2: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

1375
01:15:56,476 --> 01:15:59,276
Speaker 2: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.