1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Body dys but Joseph's gotten more. Let me ask you 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: a question real quick. Have you ever been in a 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: situation in your life where you didn't know what to 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: do next? Maybe you were frustrated, maybe you were lost, 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: maybe you were terrified, and maybe you had encroaching thoughts 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: that were rather dark, But there was something about that 7 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: moment in time in your life where, like I like 8 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: to refer to them, the guardrails kind of kept you 9 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: from running off the road. What if, just what if 10 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: all those things in your life, maybe throughout that had 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: seemed normal now like a distant memory, and the governor 12 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: was off and you're running wild, so wild, that perhaps 13 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: you would take the life of your very own sibling 14 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: and then do something so deranged and something so far 15 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: from what is accepted in normal society, and suddenly you 16 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: appear to be a monster. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 17 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: this is Bodybags. Dave MCA's story came across my desk 18 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: just in the last week, and you know, we've been 19 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: running around so crazy recently with all of the things 20 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: that we're covering in the news right now, it seems 21 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: that tempo has picked up once again. It kind of 22 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: ebbs and flows with us, doesn't it. But the story, 23 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, kind of gave me pause because I have 24 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: not heard of a case of this in some time. 25 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: That certainly, you know, kind of drew me in. And 26 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: it's a very specific thing that happened. And we're talking 27 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: about homicide here, actually alleged homicide a brother or brother. 28 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: But it goes beyond just merely a homicidal event. Now 29 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: we're talking from some reports, we're talking about perhaps a 30 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: case of cannibalism. And you know, just when you and 31 00:02:54,680 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: I feel like we've seen everything or heard everything, hold 32 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: on to your hat because there's more to bear refiled. 33 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: Actually, I'm going to put those big wrap around glasses 34 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: on my face that you get when you get your eyes, 35 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: you know, dilated at the eye doctor back in the day, 36 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 2: and I'm keeping those things on super tight. This cat, 37 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: it wasn't enough to kill his brother and destroy the 38 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: cat and burnsta apparently allegedly, maybe he got the guy's 39 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: eyeball out and ate it like it's a piece of 40 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: candy or something. I don't know if he sucked on it, 41 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: you know, or and I don't know what it tastes like. 42 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: I know that Shrek said you can use him for jelly, 43 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: you know, if I remember from the first Shrek movie. 44 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: But Matthew Hertkin. We're talking Cain and Abel here because 45 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: you know what, Joe. One thing I found out old 46 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: Matthew Hrtkin was an athlete, you know. 47 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: Yea, so was his brother. 48 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: Whereas Matthew went to college and you know, was on 49 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: the team and stuff. His brother was a star. Matthew 50 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: never excelled the way his little brother did. Now he's smart, 51 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: very affluent family. I mean, these people had it going 52 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: on financially and another part, but not in where it 53 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: really mattered. And when you get into brother on brother crime, slash, murder, 54 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: slash whatever, Cain and Abel, you know, Caine, you're. 55 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: What is it? I love this line. I've said it before. 56 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: Your brother's blood crawls out to me from the ground. 57 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know he Cain killed Abel because he was jealous, 58 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: and I'm thinking that Matthew Hurtkin killed his brother out 59 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 2: of jealousy. Now I'm thinking the eyeball thing might have 60 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: come from Demolition Man. 61 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 3: It was, you know the movie I'm talking about. 62 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I do. Actually sure, I hadn't thought 63 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: about that. In some time. 64 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 2: All right, think about this. You know, in the nineties, 65 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 2: Dennis Rodman the worm was the greatest great reboundary in 66 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 2: the NBA, and he's still dyeing his hair all weird colors. Right, Yes, 67 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: it's absolutely Wesley Snipes and Demolition Man. That's why he 68 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: already got the idea and started doing them. 69 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think I ever connected those two. 70 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 71 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: There was a scene in the movie when Wesley Snipe 72 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: is breaking up and Warden Smithers goes to uh talk 73 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: to him. He's a you know, he's a defrosted ice cube. 74 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: And the thing is is they use the eyeball, you know, 75 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: the retina scanner toy in and out, so that you know, 76 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: you couldn't fake that, right, And so Wesley Snipes, you know, 77 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: they show that he has carved the dude's eyeball out 78 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: of his head and he holds out of the scanner, 79 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: you know, and it says, no, you have a nice day, 80 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: will it, Warden Williams Smithers or whatever, And he has 81 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: the eye at the end of this pen thing right yeah, 82 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: right out there you got the pupil. And when it 83 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: says that, he says, yeah, you too, and all I 84 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: could think of is why didn't he say I will. 85 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: I know, there you go, hang hanging curveball. But you 86 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: know that, you know now what was once fictional is 87 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: the truth. Back then we didn't necessarily have biometrics like 88 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: we do now. We use those in forensics quite a bit. 89 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, to think about this particular case, it's got 90 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: a bit of everything in it. You've got, And keep 91 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: in mind, to this point, no one has been found 92 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: guilty at all on any level. There's more to unfold 93 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: because this literally Dave just has happened. It's one of 94 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: the reasons I want to cover it and kind of 95 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: talk about a little bit because you've got several elements 96 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: that are kind of at work here. First off, there 97 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: is a homicide that takes place, and it's perpetrated with 98 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: what I've often referred to as weapons of convenience. I 99 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: think that you know, we have both a golf club 100 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: right now that's involved. You know, the authorities have said 101 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: was used, it had utility, and there's any number of 102 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: ways I could think that it could be used. But 103 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: perhaps it was used as a bludgeon, Maybe the shaft 104 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: was broken into it was utilized that way, and then 105 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: of course we have we have a knife that's involved 106 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: as well. So you've got several types of of instruments 107 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: that are being utilized here that brought about the death 108 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: of this young man. In addition to that, you have 109 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: what I don't know, I guess what the British would 110 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: refer to as crockery lying about the house. There's a plate, Yeah, 111 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: there's a plate. 112 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: There's a plate like once a week you give me 113 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 3: some British rockery. 114 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: There's a yeah, no, no, yeah, well croc is actually 115 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: a bowl or you know, some type of a vessel 116 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: like that which you know evolves out of chamber pot, 117 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, so crockery, it's a crock of insert word. 118 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: And then there's flatware. Uh, and it's stained allegedly with blood, 119 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: as if someone sat down at a to dine. And 120 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: again that's that's pretty dog on chilling. And on top 121 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: of this, you mentioned something just a moment ago that 122 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: forgive me, I'd actually forgotten forgotten about. But the victim's 123 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: pussy cat has been immolated, has been burned up, and 124 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: they cannot they don't know here's the ruby. They don't 125 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: know if the kitty cat was in fact deceased already 126 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: and then set a blaze, or if the the cat 127 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: was actually uh, set a blaze while alive. I've got 128 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: my opinions about that, you know, and some of the 129 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 1: same principles that we apply with fire desks with humans, 130 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, would certainly apply with a cat. So I 131 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: can't Again. I always try to put myself into the 132 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: shoes of an investigator, and you get up this particular morning, 133 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: you have your cup of coffee, and suddenly you know 134 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: you're spun up to go out and work this case. 135 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: I don't think you would have had this on your 136 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: BINGO card for that particular day if you were an 137 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: investigator and it you know this. It just goes to 138 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: show I think that for investigators in particular, you never 139 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: know what you're going to step into anytime you cross 140 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: the threshold into a dwelling. And this actually took place 141 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: in an apartment, and you know, in an apartment of 142 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: all place, of all places, and you know this kind 143 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: of esteemed area where where these individuals you know, resided, 144 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: And it's just the reason I wanted to cover it 145 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: is that it is so utterly bizarre and it just 146 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: seems like something that that it was crafted in Hollywood, 147 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,239 Speaker 1: perhaps just thinking of me. Yeah, go ahead, no, please. 148 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: Go Yeah, we're pretty electronics is I think. We watch 149 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: a lot of movies, lots of TV, you know. I 150 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: mean the guy maybe he got that's where he got 151 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: his idea. I'm not saying he did. I'm just saying 152 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: that it's possible that that's where he you know, I mean, 153 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 2: look who come allegedly came up with the idea. All 154 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 2: I could think of was when the cat, you know, ps, 155 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 2: your cat is dead? I was thinking Tom Jones is 156 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: singing in the background, I mean a cat, you know 157 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: which the older I get, the weirder stuff pops out 158 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: of my head. But I see a story like this 159 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: and I'm like, you know, at some point you go, yeah, 160 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: I think I've seen it all. You know, we cover 161 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: a story and yeah, we saw this before. We've never 162 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: seen this one before. 163 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: I know we haven't, and I've only had When it 164 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: comes to the C word and I get asked about 165 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: you'd be surprised. People are rather emboldened, I think. And 166 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: it's because it's not that I'm anything special. It's just 167 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: that myself and people like me have seen things that 168 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: other people can't fathom. And this is actually one of 169 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: the questions that I get asked. I've had to ask 170 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: of me a crime con any number of times where 171 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: I've spoken in different locations. Have I ever worked a 172 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: case of cannibalism in my career? And I've only been, 173 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: uh kind of peripherally involved in a case where uh 174 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: where a fellow eight eight to his roommate over quite 175 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: a bit of tom he had killed him, butchered him, 176 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: had him. 177 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,239 Speaker 3: Rast Elroy was a big man, Joe. 178 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: And he would. 179 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: He has done a number of shows about about people 180 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: using by cooking or eating there to get rid of 181 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: the evidence. 182 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 3: You know. We h yeah, we had a number of 183 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: those stories over the years. 184 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they do. They do exist. They pop out, 185 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: I think, and it runs. It runs. So not that 186 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: hom sade is not abnormal. Do not get me wrong, 187 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: don't misconstrue what I'm saying here. But there are certain 188 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: things when you start to get out towards as fringes 189 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: or that fringe like behavior like this. There's there are 190 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: those moments in time where it doesn't matter about the 191 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: level of horror that you're bearing witness to out there, uh, trauma, grief, 192 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: the pain, that's involved with a lot of things. You 193 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: there's certain things that happen literally in the taboo sense, 194 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: taboo in a very broad sense. You know, there's certain 195 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: things that are not acceptable morally, and I think, uh, 196 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: it makes people retract, you know that. Okay, Yeah, he 197 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: murdered his brother, thattor side. 198 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 3: There's a word for this. Yeah, hang on second, making 199 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: up words you have to, I'm serious. 200 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 2: You're talking about how people feel like they can ask 201 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: you anything they asked me to ask you stuff. 202 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and it's actually that happens with a lot 203 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: of people in my life and you know, welcome to 204 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: my world. It happens with my mother. My mother actually 205 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: has a coffee club that she gets together with like 206 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: once a week. Yeah yeah. And and all of the 207 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: ladies that are part of the coffee club meet in 208 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: one restaurant and they sit around and they're very you know, 209 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: kind of you know, lovely southern bell types, speaking quiet 210 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: tones and everything. And then some of the questions that 211 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: well ask my mother, some of the questions I'll ask 212 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: my mother about, well, did he did did did Joe 213 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: work this case? Or did he cover this case? And 214 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: can you tell us about and so you know that door. 215 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: Once that door kind of swings open, you'd be surprised 216 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: some of the questions you get asked. So yeah, and 217 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: cannibalism is one of the things, because I think that 218 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: the more taboo something is Many times, I think it's 219 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: not just the shock factor. I think that people day, 220 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: deep down inside, they would prefer to hear you say, 221 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: know that that did not happen, because it kind of 222 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: confirmed some of these dark things in the back of 223 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: their mind, you know what I'm saying. You know, they 224 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: want someone to tell them that they're still safe and 225 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: that there's not something out there like this. But I 226 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: got to tell you in this particular case, this young 227 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: man Joseph by the way is his name. He died 228 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: allegedly at the hands of his brother, and when the 229 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: police arrived at the scene to begin to work it, 230 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: it's the stuff that many of these officers will never 231 00:14:40,920 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: forget till the day they die. Davis, you had mentioned 232 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: this family. I keep seeing this term in the news. 233 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: This family is rather affluent. I love that word. It 234 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: kind of rolls off the tongue, doesn't it. Affluent? And 235 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: you you take from that that it's not just about money. 236 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: It's also about power and the position that you hold 237 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: in society, the achievements of your kids, which many times 238 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: is in many relationships, familiar relationships, it's an extension of 239 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: what the parents see themselves as accomplishing. I'm guilty of that, 240 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, with my kids. You know, they I don't 241 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: necessarily take credit for it, but you know, I'll sit 242 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: around and say, well, my son or my daughter, you know, 243 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: did this and that, or my grandkids did this or that, 244 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: like I had anything to do with it. But you know, 245 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, the affluence, the affluent part of it, though, 246 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: is an interesting word, isn't it fascinating how you'll see 247 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: in the media where the the media will catch on 248 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: to these buzzwords and they'll use them one after the other, 249 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what publication it is. And we see 250 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: this played out, you know, in in electronic media too, 251 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: you know, where it seems like they're saying the exact 252 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: same thing. And I don't doubt that they are, but 253 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: you know, you they'll grab hold of that one word, 254 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, the word that. And this kind of goes 255 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: with affluence as well, that I kept hearing over and 256 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: over again. I don't know if you remember this I 257 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: was bellyaching about it for a while, and that was 258 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: in the Murdall trial. They couldn't get past the word 259 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: the scion. They kept referring to the elder, the elder 260 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: murdaw the convicted murderer now as the scion, you know. 261 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: And it's like the media will catch onto these words, 262 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, and some of them are beautifully descriptive and 263 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: other ones are like really really off base. It doesn't 264 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: really capture, you know what. 265 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: I really want to break that stupid case down because 266 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: it is just the horrible you know. It's everything we 267 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: expect of certain entitled people and how they act and how. 268 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 3: They can get away with anything that they did. You know. 269 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: It's like there are a lot of people that need 270 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 2: to be in trouble for what took place in South Carolina. 271 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 3: But we'll do that on another day. 272 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 273 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 274 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: We have to go back to a word that I 275 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 2: interrupted you on. You're you're talking about that there is 276 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: an actual word, and I know there's patracide. I learned 277 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: that by watching Ozark, because yeah, yeah, you're right, Ruth's 278 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 2: dad got out of prison. He was talking to Marty 279 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 2: about it. 280 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 3: You know. 281 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: I learned patra side in the prison library. It's killing 282 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: your father. But what when you kill your brother? There 283 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: really is a name for that, right, Yeah. 284 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: It's fractricide. It's it's like, you know, the same fraternity, 285 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, like you get fraternity, you have brothers and 286 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: fraternal you know, those sorts of things. So yeah, you 287 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: you have you have this this idea of one brother 288 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: killing another. And let's face it, you know, we go 289 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: back to what we had earlier said the oldest homicide 290 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: on record, right came nable brother. Uh no, pun intended there. 291 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: You know, you've got one brother dying at the hand 292 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: of another. It goes back, it is it is ancient, 293 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, and jealousy does play a big part. But 294 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: you think about what could have been, you know, any 295 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: one of the motivating factors, uh, you know, behind this 296 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: that would have driven someone to do this to somebody 297 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: that is literally part of the same gene pool. Who 298 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: is the older brother kind of a protector, you know, 299 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: you think about you know, Matthew went to Wesleyan University, 300 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: I think, and of course Joseph spent time at the 301 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: University of Michigan, from where he graduated actually I think 302 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: with a bachelor's degree. In finance and business administration in 303 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: this sort of thing's accounting, and you know, you you 304 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: kind of it leaves you scratching your head. What could 305 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: be uh, the motivating factor behind this? Was there a 306 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: pre existing I don't know, anger, you know, dwelling in dwelling, 307 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: anger within the family unit, Was there jealousy? All these 308 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: sort of things. But you know, there's there's kind of 309 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: a clue here, I think because in the case of 310 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: the accused with Matthew, he he had there was some 311 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: some poetry that he had written, and it's almost apocalyptic 312 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. From what the police are telling us. Now, 313 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: we don't have all of the details at this particular 314 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: point in time, but we do know that some of 315 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: the stuff apparently was quite eye catching to the police 316 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: because it was so over the top and some of 317 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: these rambling things that he had written down. I wonder. 318 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: I wonder because you know, it's like we were talking about earlier. 319 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: You want some kind of of of explanation because you're 320 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: trying to make sense out of something that is so 321 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: incredibly bizarre. You want to be able to say that, Okay, 322 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: this guy is completely off his nut. He is he's 323 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: working outside the boundaries of anything that is, you know, 324 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: humanly acceptable. So anytime you find a little nugget along 325 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: the way, you try to use that to explain the absurdity, 326 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: the bizarre nature of this, because I think that for 327 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: a lot of us we want to have that it 328 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: kind of cushions us a bit. But that doesn't I 329 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: don't know that it really explains things for the investigators 330 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: to the point where they can completely understand it. They say, well, 331 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: this is a clue relative to what had happened, and 332 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: it's form and function. With the police, it's not you know, 333 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: we have the luxury of sitting back as civilians and 334 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: kind of reading into some of the things. But when 335 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: you're conducting a forensic investigation at a scene that's important 336 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: information you gather, it is certainly document it where you 337 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: find it. If you find it in the immediate vicinity 338 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: of the body, for instance, or maybe, as I mentioned earlier, 339 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: the flatware in the crockery that's lying about. You know, 340 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: it's valuable in that sense, I think to frame things out. 341 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: But you know, for a case like this, when you're 342 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: considering the total dynamic of what happened at the scene, 343 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: I believe that one of the big questions that comes up, 344 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: and this is absolutely horrific, this injury that involves this 345 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: missing eye, which I find it interesting. You know they're 346 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: referring to I read one article where they said the 347 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: consumption of the missing organ, which again is more chilling 348 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: to me than actually saying, yeah, he took his brother's 349 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: eye and hate it. Did this occur in life or 350 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: did it occur in death? And how do you conduct 351 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: that examination? It's going to be a big part of this. 352 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: How do you determine that because as horrific as that is, 353 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: you think, well, would it actually be feasible? Would it 354 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: be possible to remove someone's eye in life? I think 355 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: you'd have one hell of a time in order to 356 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: try to achieve that task. And then what steps did 357 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: you take after this in order to prepare it? Did 358 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: you just sit down at the table. They're talking about 359 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: the bloody plate, they're talking about a knife, a fork, 360 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: How did how was this consumed? And is there anything 361 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: kind of symbolic here, because you know there's there's different 362 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: types of cannibalism that exists. People don't think about this 363 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: and just let me back up and give kind of 364 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: a little history lesson here. Over the years, there's been 365 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: any number of documentation, uh documented cases of cannibalism as 366 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: it applies to warring tribes. Okay, uh, there there were 367 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: a couple of tribes out there that would eat the 368 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: brain of their of their conquered victim because in those 369 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: particular contexts, they believed the brain is where the soul 370 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: was held. So they're consuming also this idea of consuming 371 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: the power of of their of their their foe. But 372 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: then you have cannibalism that is necessitated as a result 373 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: of trying to prevent starvation. And there are countless numbers 374 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: of these cases. I'm thinking, you know, primarily, you know, 375 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: right off the top of my head, the the the 376 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: case of the you know, the rugby team that crashed 377 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: in the Andes back in the seventies, and that book Alive, 378 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: which was one of the most terrifying books I'd ever 379 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,239 Speaker 1: read when I was a young young you know, I 380 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: guess I was probably uh maybe in the seventh grade 381 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: when I read that book, and it terrified me. It 382 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: was it was horrible. You know, when you you sit 383 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: there and you think about this really happened, and these 384 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: guys had to do this survive. You see that and 385 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: even even the real story behind Moby Dick. I don't 386 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: know if people are aware of this, but the true 387 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: story behind it involved cannibalism where these guys are adrift 388 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: in a boat, and that's happened a number of times, 389 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: you know, over the course of time, and that's to 390 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: prevent starvation. And then you have this kind of well. 391 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: You have the Diner party too. 392 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: You have the Donner, Yeah, you have the Donner you 393 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: write the Donner Party where you know they're trying to 394 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: cross that pass and they're frozen in and they do 395 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: that and that was, you know, just out of necessity. 396 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: You know, you think about it's the most horrible thing 397 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: in the world. But what are you going to do? 398 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: You know when you get to that point, well, that's 399 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: kind of a thing that's necessitated by the circumstances that 400 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: you're in. But your brother, you know, how how do 401 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: you how do you do this arithmetic where you arrive 402 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: at this point where you've made the active decision that 403 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: you're going to literally consume this aforementioned organ that over 404 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: the course of your life has viewed you, has seen 405 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: you in good times and in bad, and now it's 406 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: been ingested. We've seen all the movies over the years, 407 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, things that depict serial killers, you know, taking 408 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: people's lives and ingesting them if you will afterwards, and 409 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: that that's a special and I'm not a profiler, but 410 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: that that's a special category. I think that a lot 411 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: of these people fall into you think about uh, movies 412 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: that have portrayed this sort of thing over a period 413 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: of time. You know, Hannibal actor being being chief among 414 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: these uh as far as fictional character goes. But you know, 415 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: you draw upon things like, uh, you know a Damer 416 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: for instance, up in Milwaukee that took liberty with these 417 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: young men that he had picked up for years and 418 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: years and would consume their uh, their bodies and parts 419 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: of their bodies. You know, he he had the desire, 420 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: uh to turn these people into zombies. And you know, 421 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: I'll throw one out at you. And I've always wanted 422 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: to kind of cover this case on on on body bags. 423 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: That is kind of a myth, but some people believe 424 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: that's actually based in reality, and that is this actual 425 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: incestuous clan that existed in Scotland back I don't know, 426 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: in the fifteen hundreds, the sixteen hundreds, and it's actually 427 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: involving a guy named Alexander Bean and he was married 428 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: to a lady named Agnes Douglas. And as horrific as 429 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: this is, I'll go ahead and tell you. They lived 430 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: in a cave and they had multiple children. Some people 431 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: think as many as fourteen that they had had, and 432 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: these children got involved in incestuous relationships between one another, 433 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: and they lived in this cave and they produced offspring. Well, 434 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: they became cannibals, and they would and also the term 435 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: they used to use was high women, where they would 436 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: row people. They would stop people that were along a 437 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: roadway and they would capture them and take them into 438 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: this cave and they would butcher the bodies. They would 439 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: salt the bodies down, have them hanging about. And there's 440 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: there's an entire kind of mythological thing that has grown 441 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: up out of out of this story. It's actually called 442 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: I think it's called the Sauny s a w n 443 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: e y being uh cases and uh. Some people think 444 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: about this and they think, how could someone get to 445 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: this point, you know, where they would involve themselves in 446 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: this kind of behavior. But it does exist, and there's 447 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: a there's a real psychosexual I think component to it, 448 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: you know with Domer perhaps where he's saying that he 449 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: wants to hold on to these people. I had friends 450 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: that were at that scene, one good friend in particular 451 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: that actually did the autopsies on these remains somewhat what 452 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: was remaining of the remains, and the stories you know 453 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: that he told about those things that he that he 454 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: saw are things that will probably stay with him until 455 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: the day he dies. I don't know how I would 456 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: have dealt with it, you know, those remnants that are that. 457 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: Are tell me about it. Story at the fifteen hundreds 458 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 2: that I've got the willies over right now, I ain't going. 459 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: I know, it's a lot of time, you. 460 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, it's it's really chilling, you know when you 461 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: begin and at some point in time, I would like 462 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: for you and I to to do an entire episode 463 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: on those cases. And it's really hard, you know, go 464 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: back through the midst the mist of time. 465 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: You know, body bags is another one to sleep one, okay. 466 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: But you know when you but you've got Damer that's 467 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: in recent memory and and that's a vast number of 468 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: people you know, that he victimized over that period of time, 469 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: and the forensics in that case were mind blowing, you know, 470 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: the the attempt to uh obviously maintain the bodies, keep 471 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: them there, you know. And he's doing this in a 472 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: really tiny apartment. 473 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: And how he got all for so long? He did, 474 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: you know, he really did show. Okay, I'm making notes 475 00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 3: right now. 476 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: We'll come back because right now I'm kind of curious 477 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: as to the brothers we've got. We have the older 478 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: brother that goes on a beating slash killings free and 479 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: I wonder about what was going on inside this apartment. 480 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: You know, right now we don't actually know all the 481 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: details on whose apartment it was or anything else. In 482 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: a very nice place, you know. But you have Matthew, 483 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: who is the suspect. He hasn't been convicted, he's been charged. 484 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: He goes to the apartment and we're going to assume 485 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: that his twenty six year old brother Joseph was living 486 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: in this apartment. We're assuming that because we don't know anyway. 487 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 2: That always gets me in trouble with Nancy, you know that. 488 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 2: But Dave, what else do you assume you know that one? 489 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: Right? 490 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 3: Anyway? 491 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: So what we have though, Okay, we've got two brothers, 492 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: and then we've got Matthew, the suspect calling nine to 493 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: one one and waiting for police to show up. When 494 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: they get there, they find the scene. They find the 495 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: Royal buffet, the last meal, the last feast, and ps, your. 496 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 3: Cat is dead. 497 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: Yeah? 498 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: What if I was a defense attorney and he pleads 499 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 2: not guilty and I pitched the deal that he went 500 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: to visit his brother. The crazy cat when he came in, 501 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: was attacking my younger brother, and the cat was hitting 502 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 2: it with one paw and scratching his eyeball out with 503 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: the other one. I flung the cat off the couch 504 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 2: to save my brother. I accidentally fell on a golf 505 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: club and then it repeatedly fell on top of my brother, 506 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: hurting him even more. The eyeball was on a plate 507 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: and the cat was starting to cut it up with 508 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: a knife. Who was the most amazing thing I've ever seen. 509 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 2: He actually used his paws like fingers and toes and 510 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: he's cutting it up. And that's what That's what you 511 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: came into. 512 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: That's what you saw. Why do you think I'm the 513 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 3: one that called police? Now? 514 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: Everything I just described actually happened in that apartment to 515 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: a degree, and added a few flourished as the cat 516 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 2: didn't actually have fingers and toes, but he had paused, 517 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 2: he could have done it. Probably didn't. But we have 518 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: a scene where, starting back at the beginning, Matthew beat 519 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 2: the crap out of his brother. 520 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, he did. And as I mentioned earlier, it's I think, 521 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: and this is indicative of something. I think he did 522 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: it with weapons of opportunity day. 523 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 524 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 2: No, I club doesn't come to mind as something I 525 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: would use to kill somebody with. 526 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: No, it's not. And you know it doesn't seem like 527 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: a very practical, practical weapon, you know, to facilitate this 528 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: sort of thing. 529 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: You would think that the shaft would break and that 530 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: you into like a spear. Maybe, but are we talking well, 531 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: wait a minute, iron or woold? Would you be able 532 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 2: to determine based on the side what the club looked like, 533 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: the marks. 534 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 3: On the body? 535 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 2: How would you go about matching these up? I know 536 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: how we do it with a gun, I know how 537 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: we do it with a knife. Even a baseball bat 538 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: makes sense, But how are you going to do it 539 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: with a club that is not a uniform shape? And 540 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: probably in that entire apartment, even if it's a seven iron, 541 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: there's not another an iron in there. That this is 542 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: the only one that's going to look like that. 543 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's going to have well you'll have contact 544 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: trace trace evidence on the surface of it first off, 545 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: you know, and unless it went to the trouble of 546 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: washing this thing off and you use you talked about 547 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: an iron as opposed to a wood. Now I'm thinking 548 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: the iron is a is a great example. When you 549 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: look at it on the face of the golf club, 550 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: it's got these little ridges, these litter, little uh, linear 551 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: markings on it that you know, you can control the 552 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: ball with, you can do backspen with it, and all 553 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, and they're very deep, you know, 554 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: because this is it's called an iron for a reason, 555 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,719 Speaker 1: and it's it's got these very peculiar angles to it. 556 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: And anytime you have an instrument that does have distinctive 557 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: pitches to it, if you will and uh leading edge, 558 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: perhaps some sharp points, uh, it will leave a very 559 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: distinctive pattern. Now the trick is uh or you can 560 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: be able to match that up. That's why I'm a 561 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: I'm a huge proponent of if you if you have 562 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: a suspected weapon that you're going to utilize and or 563 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: that you believe as an investigator that this brought this about. 564 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: And this doesn't always happen, by the way, so you know, 565 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: this is kind of a little inside baseball info here. 566 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: It's best if you can actually bring the alleged or 567 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: suspected weapon to the morgue, and we will in the morgue, 568 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: we will actually take time to try to marry these 569 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: things up. There's any number of times where I have 570 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: held items in my gloved hand with only my hands 571 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: in the item in view, adjacent to an injury, and 572 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: they take a photo of it. Is you know, kind 573 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: of compare and contrast, and you there's if something has 574 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: a particular pattern to it, you can pick up on it. 575 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: You know, if you're talking about like a would which 576 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: the head is a lot larger, it's actually a bit lighter. 577 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: It's not going to leave the same distinctive markings as 578 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: say the iron wood, and so you would want to 579 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: compare those and whose clubs are these? And is there 580 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: any kind of symbolic thing here? You know, a knife 581 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 1: is one thing, okay, but you're talking about a family 582 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: of athletes as well, and in it kind of fascinating 583 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: that this alleged perpetrator chose allegedly chose a golf club 584 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: to literally beat the life out of his little brother 585 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: with there in this apartment. So yeah, I think that 586 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot to explore this the I'm fascinated by 587 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: this idea of you know, him having been seated potentially 588 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: at the table and having ingested his brother's eye, if 589 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,439 Speaker 1: you will, Now, how are. 590 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 3: You going to figure that one out? 591 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 2: I know we saw the plate and we saw blood 592 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: when we saw some things on the indicated maybe, but 593 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 2: are they going to be able to find out and 594 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 2: not doing. 595 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: No, no, no, be honest. 596 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 3: Here did he cook it? 597 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 2: Did he put in the microwave? Did he do it 598 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 2: on a frying pan? Did he boil it like you 599 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 2: would an egg? Did he eat it like a yoke? 600 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 2: Did he cut it up and put it on a 601 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 2: piece of I. 602 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: Think that this is something what remnant was left behind? 603 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: Had he actually ingested or is there you know, because 604 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: the tissue that the eye is made up of. Let's 605 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: just say you look at it from the perspective of 606 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: if he did. In fact, let's see, how can I 607 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: say this dissect the eye on the plate with the 608 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: intention of eating it. If there's some remnant of tissue there, 609 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: you can actually take that tissue and put it on 610 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: a slide, and first off, you can identify it that 611 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: soft tissue is tissue that originated from the eye. Okay, 612 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: and if he's ingested this, there's really no way to 613 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, kind of track this relati to you know, 614 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: kind of examining this. I think that what you're left 615 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: with because I and I have removed eyes in the 616 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: morgue generally on the poster eer side. Once you once 617 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: the skull is open and the brain is removed, we 618 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: will remove them posteriorally. Okay, You're not going to try 619 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: to go in through the orbit necessarily to do it's 620 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: impractical in that circumstance. Now, when eye surgeons do surgery, 621 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: they'll approach anteriorly, okay, and a lot of that is 622 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: dependent upon where whatever it is they're working on is 623 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: located anatomically only. It's no easy task in order to 624 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: remove an eye at autopsy. That's one of the reasons 625 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: we go in. You know, from the backside we can 626 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: examine the optic nerve. There's these little attachments you know 627 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: that you know that help you know, that cause us 628 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: to move, you know, that facilitators moving our eye and 629 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: those have to be detached and it's carefully removed. Can 630 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: an eye literally be dug out? Yeah, it can be. 631 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If an instrument is used like 632 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: a knife, that's going to leave behind tool marks. One 633 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: of my questions is he is Joseph has sustained stab 634 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: woms allegedly as well well, the stab wounds that he 635 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: sustained were the derivative of the flatware that his brother 636 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: was using to ingest his eye, see what I'm saying. 637 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: And if so, if he used that flatware, whether it's 638 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: a fork or a knife or whatever, did he make 639 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: any marks on the orbit, on any portion of the 640 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: orbit of the eye to extricate it? And can you 641 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: match that up? Well? Yeah, possibly, you would have to 642 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: be very careful at autopsy to examine that area and 643 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: to try to appreciate it. So I think it. I'm 644 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: not going to say that we necessarily got an uphill battle. 645 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: You know, with this case, We've got a brother and 646 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: you know this is occurring and arguably, I guess, probably 647 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,720 Speaker 1: one of the most affluent areas in all of New Jersey. 648 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: This is in Princeton. I mean it's literally an ivy 649 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: league town. Are how how are you going to be 650 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: able to work your way through this case? I think 651 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: and winning if this thing goes to trial. If he doesn't, 652 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, he's been charged, and what were the charges again, 653 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: David is you. 654 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 2: Know before you even got that, I was going to 655 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 2: ask you about how does the cat fit into all this? 656 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 2: Because that's one of the charges. It was bad enough 657 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 2: because he got first g murder charge, animal cruelty and 658 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 2: weapons charges. So just sticking with the animal cruelty and 659 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: the first murder, is there not an add on type 660 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 2: of a crime you could have for you know, taking 661 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 2: your brother? Yeah? 662 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: Because the determined Yeah, yeah, And I think that that's 663 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,439 Speaker 1: a big part. And if it's after death, obviously we've 664 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: covered enough cases certainly dismemberment, and this would fall into 665 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: that category of abusive corpse. And you know, I mean, 666 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: you and I've covered enough brother that we know that 667 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: from state to state the terminology varies, but essentially means 668 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: the same thing. You've correct me from wrong. We've got 669 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: a first degree homicide charge if I'm not mistaken, and 670 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: then the animal cruelty thing. It doesn't really matter if 671 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: and don't get me wrong, I'm not being insensitive to 672 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: the animal, But it doesn't really matter if dead is dead, 673 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: the animal is deceased, so, you know, because one of 674 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: the thoughts was, was the cat set on fire while 675 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 1: I was alive? As horrible as that is, or did 676 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: in fact this individual kill the cat and then set 677 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: it on fire? And here's another kind of gruesome piece 678 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: to this. Did he this to the cat before he 679 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 1: killed his brother as kind of a way to torture 680 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: him in some way? You know, because the accused is 681 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: a big guy. I mean he looks like when you 682 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: look at this guy, he looks like he could play 683 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: offensive tackle, you know. Joseph, the victim is I'm not 684 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: going to say diminutive. He's an athletic looking guy, but 685 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: you know he's he's kind of one of those guys 686 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: that's he's in tip top shape, you know, he's but 687 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: he's certainly not the size of his brother or the 688 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: other brother who I believe his name is David. He's 689 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: also a big guy. You know, how does the cat 690 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: fit in? Well, just you know, kind of jumping over 691 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: into the to the you know, the psychological standpoint, this 692 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: cat meant something to Joseph, then it's something that a 693 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: perpetrator that has this kind of mindset that's writing down 694 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: all this apocalyptic stuff about blood oozing from his eyes. 695 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: That's actually one of the comments that he made. That 696 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: cat meant something to him. And obviously Joe or Joseph 697 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: is Joey rather it is the target of this. You'd 698 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: want to destroy his cat too, if he held that 699 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: cat near and dear and precious. And you've got this 700 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: big kind of ogre of a guide that has been charged, 701 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,959 Speaker 1: not found guilty, but charged in this case. I don't 702 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: know it. I think that as we go along, Dave, 703 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: if we continue to have cases like this, I don't 704 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: know how we're going to I don't know how we 705 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: can trump this. Something will happen as a result of 706 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: me saying that. But you know, just when you think, 707 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: as you said, well said, when you think you've seen 708 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:45,800 Speaker 1: it all, you suddenly discover that you haven't. I'm Joseph 709 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is body packs