WEBVTT - #247 Jason Flom with Ken Wyniemko

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<v Speaker 1>On April thirtieth, nineteen ninety four, a man in a

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<v Speaker 1>nylon stocking mass broke into a twenty eight year old

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<v Speaker 1>woman's home in Michigan while she slept. He blindfolded and

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<v Speaker 1>raped her over the course of several hours before leaving.

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<v Speaker 1>Since the victim was blindfold and it had only caught

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<v Speaker 1>a few glimpses of her attacker, the composite sketch she

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<v Speaker 1>created with investigators was deemed only sixty percent accurate when

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<v Speaker 1>the sketch hit the media. A bowling alley manager named

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<v Speaker 1>Ken win Nemko was named by a disgruntled X as

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<v Speaker 1>a potential culprit. Ken had recently ejected an off duty

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<v Speaker 1>cop from his bowling alley for being drunken disorderly, which

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<v Speaker 1>was not taken kindly by the officer's friends on the force.

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<v Speaker 1>With this grudge looming, and despite Ken not matching the

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<v Speaker 1>physical description, detectives acted on this dubious tip and manipulated

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<v Speaker 1>a lineup to produce his identification. DNA testing was available,

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<v Speaker 1>but not done yet. Even the rology testing of the

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<v Speaker 1>biological evidence from the attack was again not a match

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<v Speaker 1>for Ken. However, while Can awaited trial in jail, the

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<v Speaker 1>assistant prosecutor offered his cell made a deal to join

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<v Speaker 1>the lead detective in giving false testimony that Ken had

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<v Speaker 1>confessed to the rape. His hastily appointed defense attorney did

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<v Speaker 1>not have time to prepare, and between the false testimony,

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<v Speaker 1>the shaky composite sketch, and the bogus lineup, the jury

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<v Speaker 1>ignored the exculpatory roology and sent Ken away to prison

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<v Speaker 1>for forty to sixty years. With the help of the

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<v Speaker 1>Cooley Innocence Project in Michigan, Ken was finally able to

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<v Speaker 1>obtain the biological evidence, including an unopened rape kit, to

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<v Speaker 1>find out who had really committed this horrific crime nearly

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<v Speaker 1>a decade prior. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to

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<v Speaker 1>wrongful conviction. Today's story is one that I've heard whispered

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<v Speaker 1>about ever since it happened, in hush tones in the

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<v Speaker 1>innocence community, where people talk about how this was one

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<v Speaker 1>of the worst examples of our criminal legal system. And

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<v Speaker 1>also people have talked to me for a long time

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<v Speaker 1>about this man and the incredible work that he's done

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<v Speaker 1>evil from inside the walls of prison. You got to

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<v Speaker 1>hear this story to believe it. And I'm talking about

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<v Speaker 1>the man who's on the air with us right now,

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<v Speaker 1>Ken way Namko, thank you for being here. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>Wronful Conviction.

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<v Speaker 2>Jason, it is my pleasure. Thank you for inviting.

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<v Speaker 1>Us, and with him is an awesome character in her

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<v Speaker 1>own right. Gail Palmakoff, attorney with the Kooli Innocence Project

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<v Speaker 1>based out of Michigan, where this horrible crime happened. Gail,

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, thank you for all the incredible work

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<v Speaker 1>you're doing, and welcome to the show. I'm so glad

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<v Speaker 1>to have you here.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>So this case goes all the way back to the

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<v Speaker 1>early mid nineties. But Ken, what was your life like

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<v Speaker 1>before you got wrapped up in this well.

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<v Speaker 2>I started with GM right after high school. I was

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<v Speaker 2>working with my two brothers and my dad were all

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<v Speaker 2>skilled trade workers. I was married from nineteen seventy five

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<v Speaker 2>to nineteen eighty and my father in law owned a

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<v Speaker 2>nightclub and a bowling center in Detroit. It's called Falcon Lanes.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was working for a GM during the day

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<v Speaker 2>and I was working at the bowling yelly in nightclub

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<v Speaker 2>at night. Then I went out on my own and

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<v Speaker 2>I was just managing bowling Centers, and I was managing

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<v Speaker 2>at center at the time at Kingswood Lane's in Macomb County, Michigan,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's how this whole incident started.

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<v Speaker 1>So it sounds like you've got a good thing going there,

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<v Speaker 1>managing this bowling alley, a good peaceful life. But here's

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<v Speaker 1>where the seed of this story is planted with you

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<v Speaker 1>and the police, right, so please take us through this.

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<v Speaker 2>It was on a Friday night. We had a family

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<v Speaker 2>bowling night. Okay, the parents would bringing their kids in.

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<v Speaker 2>We get free pizza everyone, and the place was jammed.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was sitting in my office. One of my waitresses, Kelly,

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<v Speaker 2>came into my office and she says, Kenny, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>guy bowling on Lane twelve. She thought he was drunk,

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<v Speaker 2>and she said that she noticed that the guy had

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<v Speaker 2>two bowling bags. One he had two bowling balls in

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<v Speaker 2>and the other bag he had cans of Miller Lite.

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<v Speaker 2>So I came out of my office and there was

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<v Speaker 2>a father, mother, and two kids on Leane eleven and

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<v Speaker 2>this guy was getting an argument with him. So I

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<v Speaker 2>walked down there and I said, excuse me, do these

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<v Speaker 2>two bags belong to you? He says, who the hell

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<v Speaker 2>are you. I said, my name is Kenny. I'm the

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<v Speaker 2>manager's place. I said what's your name? And he said

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<v Speaker 2>my name is John. So I said, well, John, I said,

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<v Speaker 2>do you mind if I take a look into the

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<v Speaker 2>second bag over here? He said why, what's the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, that's my right, I'm doing my job. Opened

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<v Speaker 2>up the second bag. He hit eleven cans of Miller

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<v Speaker 2>Lite in that bag. So I said, John, do yourself

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<v Speaker 2>a favor. I said, take your bulling shoes back to

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<v Speaker 2>the counter, get your refunder. You're all done bullings for tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>You brought this beer into my establishment, and that's illegal.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, I bought that beer here. I said, John,

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<v Speaker 2>I know you're lying to me because we don't sell

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<v Speaker 2>canned beer. All the beer that we sell are in bottles.

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<v Speaker 2>And I grabbed the bag with the beer in it.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, where you go? And that's you know, that's mine.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, well, you come back and talk to me tomorrow. John.

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<v Speaker 2>The place is packed. I don't want to argue with you.

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<v Speaker 2>So I got the bag, took any office with me,

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<v Speaker 2>put it on our floor. About ten minutes later, this

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<v Speaker 2>guy comes in the office. He said, what do you

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<v Speaker 2>say your name was? I said, my name is ken One.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, well, can I just want you to know

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm not leaving here until I get my beer bag.

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<v Speaker 2>And his voice started getting louder and louder. I said, look, John,

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<v Speaker 2>I told you I'm not going to argue with you tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>One way or another. You're leaving this building. If you

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to leave on your own, I'll throw you out.

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<v Speaker 2>And he said you can't throw me out of here,

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<v Speaker 2>and he reached in his pocket and he pulled out

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<v Speaker 2>a putting down to police bands. And I said, you

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<v Speaker 2>should know better that you cannot bring alcohol into establishment

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<v Speaker 2>that has a LOOKU license. He said, I'm not leaving

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<v Speaker 2>until I get that beer. So I got up, got

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<v Speaker 2>him in a headlocked and he's still holding on to

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<v Speaker 2>this bag with his bowling balls in it, and I

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<v Speaker 2>started dragging him towards the front door, two double glass

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<v Speaker 2>doors and a vestibule leading out in the parking lot.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I'm dragging him up, he takes the bag

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<v Speaker 2>with a bullying balls and he shatters the glass doors,

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<v Speaker 2>dragged him outside, threw him out of parking lot. I

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<v Speaker 2>told him I'll see you later. So on the way back,

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<v Speaker 2>I told one of my porters to get a broom

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<v Speaker 2>and sleep up the glass. I go back in the office.

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<v Speaker 2>About twenty minutes after that, carry the counterman comes in.

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<v Speaker 2>He says, Kenny, there's two uniform cops out here whant

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to you. So they come in and asked me,

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<v Speaker 2>I heard you had a problem over here about a

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<v Speaker 2>half hour ago. So I told him the same thing

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<v Speaker 2>I just told you. I tried to be as nice

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<v Speaker 2>as I could to him, but he didn't want to listen,

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<v Speaker 2>and I repeated to them the same thing I told John.

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<v Speaker 2>If he was a cop, you know better than to

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<v Speaker 2>bring alcohol and to establishment that has a liquor license.

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<v Speaker 2>His partner says, is your liquor license up to date?

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<v Speaker 2>I said, yes, it is. I said it's posted on

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<v Speaker 2>the wall behind our bar, where it's supposed to be

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<v Speaker 2>by law. And he said, well, do you matter if

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<v Speaker 2>I take a look at it. I said no, as

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<v Speaker 2>a matter of fact, I'll take a walk with you.

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<v Speaker 2>So we walked inside the bar. I pulled a license

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<v Speaker 2>off the wall and our shoulder to him. In meantime,

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<v Speaker 2>his partner started walking around the whole bar, up and

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<v Speaker 2>down the lanes, looking around, and he finally came back,

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<v Speaker 2>says everything okay, officer, And he said, well, Kenny, to

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<v Speaker 2>be honest with you, and we'll come back to check

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<v Speaker 2>on your five or six months down the road, make

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<v Speaker 2>sure you're okay. Is that some kind of a threat

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<v Speaker 2>his partnership. We don't make threats. We keep promises. And

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<v Speaker 2>he walked out the door. So that's how this whole

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<v Speaker 2>thing began. I believe.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's such a sinister scenario. Just I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think anybody who wanted to be in your shoes

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<v Speaker 1>at that point. And Gail, I want to turn to

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<v Speaker 1>you now. Can you take us back to the crime

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<v Speaker 1>itself and how they managed to get anyone in their

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<v Speaker 1>right mind to believe that Ken was involved.

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<v Speaker 3>The basic facts are is that on April thirtieth of

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen ninety four, the woman the complainant, had been at

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<v Speaker 3>a party earlier in the day. She came home, She

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<v Speaker 3>went to bed at about two am. Later in the morning,

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<v Speaker 3>closer to five, she wakes up and there's a masked

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<v Speaker 3>man in her room. He had a nylon over his head.

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<v Speaker 3>He went and got underwear out of her drawer, put

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<v Speaker 3>panties over her head, and then over the course of

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<v Speaker 3>the next couple of hours engaged in multiple full acts

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<v Speaker 3>of sexual penetration. She never really saw the perpetrator. She

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<v Speaker 3>said that when he took his mask off, she couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>see him, and that when he lifted the mask at all,

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<v Speaker 3>she only got glimpses of him. He left, he had

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<v Speaker 3>secured her hands to the bed. She was able to

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<v Speaker 3>get herself extricated. She went to the neighbors sought help.

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<v Speaker 3>She was taken to the hospital. A rape kip was performed.

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<v Speaker 3>The police got involved in investigation, and on the day

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<v Speaker 3>that this occurred, they took her statements, and she told

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<v Speaker 3>the officers that she really did not get a good

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<v Speaker 3>look at this perpetrator. He was masked, she was masked.

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<v Speaker 3>They said, can you help with the composite. She didn't

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<v Speaker 3>think that she would be very helpful because she didn't

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<v Speaker 3>see the man.

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<v Speaker 2>She said. At one point, the guy's mask had risen

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<v Speaker 2>above his chin. She said he had a deep cleft chin.

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<v Speaker 2>She could tell he was a smoker at times he

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<v Speaker 2>had thought she heard and an inhaler, and she estimated

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<v Speaker 2>that he was about six one six foot two, about

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred and twenty and thirty pounds. I was five

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<v Speaker 2>foot eleven, one hundred and eighty five pounds, never had

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<v Speaker 2>a cleft chain in my life. Didn't smoke back then, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I smoke until I got to Jackson Prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Now those are the facts.

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<v Speaker 3>So she gave a composite, and on the composite it's

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<v Speaker 3>a sixty percent accurate. She was not able to identify

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<v Speaker 3>critical features. He was masked with a nylon. She was

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<v Speaker 3>blindfolded with panties that were later secured with a necktie.

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<v Speaker 3>But the composite was out in the media and one

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<v Speaker 3>of Ken's ex girlfriend, a very disgruntled ex girlfriend, thought

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<v Speaker 3>the composite looked like Ken. Contacted the Clinton Township Police Department,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's how Ken gets involved is through the composite.

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<v Speaker 2>This is July fourteenth. I'm home in bed, sleeping by

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<v Speaker 2>eight thirty in the morning, and there's a knockout my

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<v Speaker 2>front door. So I got up to answer the door

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<v Speaker 2>and there's a young lady setting in my porch and

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<v Speaker 2>I said, can I help you? And she said, is

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<v Speaker 2>your name Kenny? I said, yes it is. What can

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<v Speaker 2>I do for you? Well? She moved on a side.

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<v Speaker 2>Four playing clothes officers rushed me, attacking me toy threw

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<v Speaker 2>me down on the floor in my living room and

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<v Speaker 2>handcuffed me behind my back, and I'm rolling around saying,

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<v Speaker 2>what the hell's going up? This woman was a detective

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<v Speaker 2>and she told me that they have a warrant for

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<v Speaker 2>my arrest. I'm going to be taken down to the

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<v Speaker 2>Mcomb County Jail to be placed in the lineup because

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<v Speaker 2>I'm suspected of being the person that committed to Bee

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Robbie in a rape back in April, and I said,

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<v Speaker 2>what the hell are you talking about? So they took

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<v Speaker 2>me down to the McComb County Jail and Detective Oastin

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<v Speaker 2>was the lead detective at the time. He told me

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<v Speaker 2>how was we replaced in a lineup? Because they had

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<v Speaker 2>received an anonymous phone call that Ken, when im Goo,

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<v Speaker 2>the manager at Kingsworth lanees looks like a deposit that

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<v Speaker 2>was issued in the paper about this woman who was

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<v Speaker 2>robbed in a rape.

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<v Speaker 3>So at that point the detectives bring Ken in, they

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<v Speaker 3>put them in a lineup. They bring in the complainant

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<v Speaker 3>in the rape case and she's in the lineup room.

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<v Speaker 3>She looks at the six folks is unable to identify Ken,

0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.920
<v Speaker 3>goes out speaks with members of the prospect Tuter's office.

0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:05.280
<v Speaker 3>Comes back in the people in the lineup rass to say,

0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.720
<v Speaker 3>I don't remember what the words are, Ken, you probably do.

0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.160
<v Speaker 2>What time does your husband come home? Right? There are

0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.319
<v Speaker 2>six of us, and there are all five guys had mustaches.

0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.319
<v Speaker 2>I'd never had a mustache in my life. And when

0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.720
<v Speaker 2>they first put us in the lineup together, I was

0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.720
<v Speaker 2>in number six position. They took her out to talk

0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.959
<v Speaker 2>to the prosecutor and her assistant and Detective Osten. During

0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.160
<v Speaker 2>that time, an officer brought in a riser like a

0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.400
<v Speaker 2>three inch high riser had a wood. They brought it in.

0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.960
<v Speaker 2>They put it under the number two spot. They moved

0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:37.439
<v Speaker 2>the guy that was a number two spot to the

0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.760
<v Speaker 2>number six spot. They moved me and made me stand

0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:41.520
<v Speaker 2>in that riser in number two position.

0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.079
<v Speaker 3>And after that she says Ken is the one, and

0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.480
<v Speaker 3>that's how Ken gets roped into this whole thing.

0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.160
<v Speaker 1>This episode is under it by AIG, a leading global

0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.400
<v Speaker 1>insurance company. AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and

0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.760
<v Speaker 1>is making a positive difference in the lives of its

0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.440
<v Speaker 1>employees and in the communities where we work and live.

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.000
<v Speaker 1>In light of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance,

0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.360
<v Speaker 1>and in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social

0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:22.480
<v Speaker 1>justice reform, The AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:27.120
<v Speaker 1>services and other support to underrepresented communities and individuals.

0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.360
<v Speaker 3>The complainant reported in her written statements that the perpetrator

0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.240
<v Speaker 3>ejaculated three times, one of which was oral, and with

0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.000
<v Speaker 3>respect to the oral ejaculation, you wiped her mouth out

0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.240
<v Speaker 3>with a pair of panties and they were left at

0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.280
<v Speaker 3>the scene. The point is is that there was an

0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 3>enormous amount of biological evidence, including a ratekit, that was

0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.240
<v Speaker 3>collected after this crime at the hospital that day.

0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:00.720
<v Speaker 1>Some of it was tested, some of it wasn't. But

0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.400
<v Speaker 1>the biological evidence that was tested was tested using techniques

0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.679
<v Speaker 1>that were not the best techniques available sorology testing I'm

0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.680
<v Speaker 1>talking about. They didn't use DNA, and furthermore, the testing

0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.800
<v Speaker 1>that was done didn't help their case at all because

0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 1>it didn't match ken.

0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:17.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 3>In fact, there was nothing at all that tied came

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.240
<v Speaker 3>to this rape except that composite.

0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 1>This composite sketch, which even the victim said was only

0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 1>sixty percent accurate, and no one could have created an

0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.959
<v Speaker 1>accurate sketch from this for the reason we've already talked about,

0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.880
<v Speaker 1>and of course this bogus lineup which they tried to

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.800
<v Speaker 1>use every thirty trick in the book in order to

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.120
<v Speaker 1>get hurt to identify you in the lineup.

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, they released me. After the lineup was done, I

0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.760
<v Speaker 2>had called my dad to come and pick me up,

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:46.680
<v Speaker 2>you know from the gail. My dad was seventy six

0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:48.960
<v Speaker 2>years old. Who went back to my house and pulled

0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.240
<v Speaker 2>in a driveway in. I could see all the lights around.

0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.439
<v Speaker 2>Their doors were open, and I'm thinking, what the hell

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.760
<v Speaker 2>is going on? So walk inside the house. It looked

0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.200
<v Speaker 2>like a tornado had gone through my house. Everything was

0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.000
<v Speaker 2>tossed and turned. The cops were so arrogant. They went

0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.000
<v Speaker 2>inside my refrigerator. I had jars of pickles and peppers,

0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.040
<v Speaker 2>and they broke the jars on my kitchen floor. My

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.280
<v Speaker 2>dad started crying, and guy said, Dad, I said, don't worry,

0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.360
<v Speaker 2>go home and try to get some sleep. I'll clean up.

0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.000
<v Speaker 2>So I stayed up mostly I trying to put everything

0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 2>back together. Got up next morning and I went to

0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.120
<v Speaker 2>Myers to buy some of the stuff that the cops

0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.840
<v Speaker 2>had broken. Come back home, pulling the driveway and Oastin

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.680
<v Speaker 2>and his partner Bart Myrlett, they pulled in behind my

0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.120
<v Speaker 2>rear bumper like to try to block me off. So

0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:30.680
<v Speaker 2>I get out of the car and I'm holding one

0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.840
<v Speaker 2>bag the grocer's on my left hand, and Oastin says, one,

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to put that bag on a ground, put

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:37.440
<v Speaker 2>your hands on top of the car. So I put

0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.200
<v Speaker 2>the bag on a driveway, put my hand on top

0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.800
<v Speaker 2>of the car, and handcuffed me behind my back. And

0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:43.520
<v Speaker 2>I said, you want to tell me what's going on now?

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.000
<v Speaker 2>He said, well, I'm under arrest for this bee armed

0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.040
<v Speaker 2>robbery and the rape because I was identified the day

0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.880
<v Speaker 2>before in that lineup. And I said, look, I'm not

0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 2>the smartest guy in the world, but I'm not stupid.

0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.920
<v Speaker 2>If I was identified in that lineup, you guys would

0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:58.600
<v Speaker 2>never let me go. You do arrest of me running

0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.320
<v Speaker 2>on a spot, and I'll never forget this line as

0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.160
<v Speaker 2>long as I live. Olsen said, you know what, one

0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm going by the time I get done fucking with you,

0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.440
<v Speaker 2>is going to cost you a million dollars to get

0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 2>your ass out of prison. Quote unquote.

0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 1>It's really sick thing. I mean, who are you supposed

0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.840
<v Speaker 1>to call when the cops are the criminals. So here

0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.720
<v Speaker 1>you are. You've never been in trouble a day in

0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.080
<v Speaker 1>your life. Now you're sent into a jail. What was

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 1>that experience? Like?

0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.680
<v Speaker 2>That was hell step below prison, that's for sure. But

0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't wish that on anyone. You know. I had

0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.320
<v Speaker 2>a quote opponent attorney. His name is Lawrence Peppler. Guy

0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't take my phone calls. So I filed a grievance

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.120
<v Speaker 2>against him to try to get another attorney. We have

0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.080
<v Speaker 2>a hearing on a Friday afternoon in front of Judge Schwartz,

0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.440
<v Speaker 2>and Judge Schwartz said that he's not in the habit

0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.480
<v Speaker 2>of changing attorneys, and he told me that he's going

0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.120
<v Speaker 2>to give me a new Attorney's name is Albert Markowski.

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.520
<v Speaker 2>And if I don't like him, I could defend myself.

0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.160
<v Speaker 2>And I told him Grunner, I don't know the first

0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.080
<v Speaker 2>thing about the law. But he's says, come Monday morning,

0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.200
<v Speaker 2>we're picking a jury. So what that means is this,

0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.200
<v Speaker 2>mister Markowski is going to have Saturday and Sunday to

0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 2>prepare for a case. Fifteen counts of CSC. What kind

0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.280
<v Speaker 2>of b what kind of I'm robbery.

0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Gail, you got a way in on this. I mean,

0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.120
<v Speaker 1>did judge really appointed attorney on Friday who starts the

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 1>case on Monday, and explain CSC in these initials as well?

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:23.360
<v Speaker 1>If you could.

0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.840
<v Speaker 3>A CSC one case, which is a criminal sexual assault

0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:31.440
<v Speaker 3>case first degree, involves acts of penetration, it's a life offense.

0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 3>Anyone would need a lot of time to prepare for that,

0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.200
<v Speaker 3>particularly in this case because the rape itself was factually complex,

0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.240
<v Speaker 3>and then the process and procedure afterwards required a lot

0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:47.920
<v Speaker 3>of analysis. So two days a week doesn't matter, is

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 3>just totally insufficient.

0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.880
<v Speaker 1>So you go to trial, if you can even call

0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 1>it that, it's a show trial in effect, right, I mean,

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.240
<v Speaker 1>they gave you no hope in hell. I don't know

0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.520
<v Speaker 1>what was on the judge his mind, but one would

0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.359
<v Speaker 1>have hoped that the judge would have been an arbiter

0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.919
<v Speaker 1>in this and would have actually wanted to see justice done,

0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 1>even though it seems like nobody else on that side

0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 1>did or had any interest in it. But nonetheless, you're

0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 1>now screwed. You've got this attorney who you've just met,

0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.159
<v Speaker 1>who hasn't had any time to do any investigation or

0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.720
<v Speaker 1>preparation of any kind, and now you go to trial.

0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.600
<v Speaker 1>So how long did the trial take? And did anyone

0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.200
<v Speaker 1>do anything to help you during this process?

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.800
<v Speaker 2>No, mister Barkowski, I think I talked to him twice.

0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:39.679
<v Speaker 2>They picked a jury on Monday afternoon. The trial lasted

0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 2>the rest of the week. The following week, jury came

0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:44.360
<v Speaker 2>back on Wednesday.

0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 1>So, despite the victim's uncertainty regarding the composite sketch and

0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.320
<v Speaker 1>her glimpses of the attacker, the composite sketch was admitted

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:57.080
<v Speaker 1>into evidence and the prosecution's case was centered on this

0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:02.080
<v Speaker 1>composite sketch because remember, Ken wasn't right, so there was

0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.320
<v Speaker 1>no forensic evidence connecting him to the crime, and of

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.919
<v Speaker 1>course the zerology testing didn't connect into it either, So

0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.960
<v Speaker 1>the composite sketch, they realized, wasn't going to be enough

0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.840
<v Speaker 1>on its own, which brings us to this character named

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.159
<v Speaker 1>Glenn McCormick. Gail, please tell us who this guy was

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:21.600
<v Speaker 1>and the role that he played.

0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.639
<v Speaker 3>Glenn McCormick shared a cell with Ken for a little

0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.960
<v Speaker 3>while when he was in the Macomb County Jail. He

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.840
<v Speaker 3>was released, he was contacted by Detective Oustin. He was

0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.480
<v Speaker 3>asked to come to the Clinton Township Police Department, and

0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.760
<v Speaker 3>he was told by Linda Davis, the prosecutor, that he

0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:40.639
<v Speaker 3>was in a world of hurt. He was charged with

0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.280
<v Speaker 3>armed robbery obstructing a police officer. He was a fourth

0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.919
<v Speaker 3>habitual so he had potentially a life sentence and that

0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.640
<v Speaker 3>if he would testify against Ken, you know, something could

0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.880
<v Speaker 3>be worked out with respect to his charges. And the

0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:59.200
<v Speaker 3>deal was his charges would be changed to attempt unarmed

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.000
<v Speaker 3>robbery with It's a recommendation for a year in the

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.760
<v Speaker 3>county jail, which is a whole lot different than a

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:05.960
<v Speaker 3>potential life offense.

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.440
<v Speaker 2>He was told by Lynda Davis and Ostin that if

0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.360
<v Speaker 2>he didn't testify to what they had in their reports,

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Linda Davis guaranteed him that he would not see the

0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:15.480
<v Speaker 2>lighted date.

0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:20.439
<v Speaker 3>McCormick was in an interview room this discussion occurred, the

0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.960
<v Speaker 3>police report was placed in front of him. Linda Davis

0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 3>and Detective Oston left the room. McCormick had an opportunity

0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.200
<v Speaker 3>to read the police report and that's how he learned

0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.879
<v Speaker 3>the facts of Ken's case. They came back into the

0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.320
<v Speaker 3>room and they did a recording of him. He testified

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.480
<v Speaker 3>at trial that Ken said that, yeah, I did it.

0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:42.720
<v Speaker 3>They ain't got shit on me. I hit all the

0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.440
<v Speaker 3>evidence and so on. McCormick lied under oath during the trial.

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:47.760
<v Speaker 3>It was pretty egregious.

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.679
<v Speaker 1>So everybody knows you can't bribe a witness, right, you

0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 1>get five years or more for bribing a witness. But

0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.400
<v Speaker 1>the government comes along and says to this guy, he's

0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.000
<v Speaker 1>very simple. You could choose door one, door number two.

0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Door number one you spend the the rest of your

0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.520
<v Speaker 1>life in prison, or door number two, which you might

0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:08.080
<v Speaker 1>find more pleasurable. You can simply lie in exactly the

0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:09.960
<v Speaker 1>ways that we tell you to, and we'll leave you

0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:12.919
<v Speaker 1>this document as we just sort of slink out of

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.639
<v Speaker 1>the room, so you can learn about this case that

0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.560
<v Speaker 1>you know absolutely nothing about, and then you can lie

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.639
<v Speaker 1>on the stand and then only spend about a year

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.480
<v Speaker 1>in county jail. I mean, you make the decision, and

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.080
<v Speaker 1>this guy, who was apparently not a terrific guy to

0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.080
<v Speaker 1>start with, was a very easy decision for him to make,

0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:33.080
<v Speaker 1>and so he got up on the stand and lied

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.119
<v Speaker 1>under oath. Another crime. So the crimes just keep piling up,

0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 1>but none of them are yours. It's amazing. So the

0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:41.960
<v Speaker 1>jury goes out, how long did they deliberate for?

0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:47.760
<v Speaker 2>They got the case on Friday afternoon, game back Wednesday,

0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:49.720
<v Speaker 2>November ninth. They're guilty in all counts.

0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 1>So that moment when they came back and declared you

0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.880
<v Speaker 1>guilty and ultimately sends you to forty to sixty years

0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.000
<v Speaker 1>in prison, So a life sentenced because you weren't a

0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.160
<v Speaker 1>young man. I was forty three, right, A living death

0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.880
<v Speaker 1>send I mean, can you take us back to that

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:05.680
<v Speaker 1>probably worst one way of your life.

0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 2>I can. I can remember my dad was sitting right

0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.800
<v Speaker 2>behind me when it furdicure was announced and I could

0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.440
<v Speaker 2>hear my dad said no, no. He started crying and

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I tried to get up to give him a hug,

0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and the court officers were stating right behind me. He

0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.879
<v Speaker 2>pushed me back down in the chair. I'll never forget

0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.680
<v Speaker 2>that day as long as I live. That moment. That's

0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.840
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that motivates me to do what

0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.160
<v Speaker 2>I've been doing for the last eighteen years, and I'll

0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:44.679
<v Speaker 2>never stop. When they put me in my first cell, Jason,

0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.560
<v Speaker 2>I was scared to that. I was shaking, I was crying,

0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:50.200
<v Speaker 2>and I sat down my bunk. I started to tear

0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.960
<v Speaker 2>the bed sheets into strips. I was going to hang myself.

0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 2>That's how desponded I felt. I remember getting down on

0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.359
<v Speaker 2>my knees and praying, Lord, please show me the weight.

0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Please told me what to do. And as God is

0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.360
<v Speaker 2>my witness, I swear this is the truth. I could

0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.600
<v Speaker 2>feel like a hand touch my right shoulder and I

0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:12.000
<v Speaker 2>heard her voice say, Genny, You're going to be just fine.

0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.560
<v Speaker 2>And when I heard those words, something came over me.

0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:17.840
<v Speaker 2>I stood up and I just made my mind out.

0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:19.879
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do whatever I have to do with

0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:21.800
<v Speaker 2>God's help to prove my innocence.

0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, you had God and Gail right so, and you

0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:26.520
<v Speaker 1>needed both.

0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Not only got in Gail, I had catch a sweatloaf

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.800
<v Speaker 2>from the Innocence Project Kim Shine, who is a reporter

0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.720
<v Speaker 2>from the Detroit News. You know I've been blessed with

0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:36.760
<v Speaker 2>three angels and Gail.

0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.960
<v Speaker 1>We know it's so easy to get wrongfully convicted, and

0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:45.680
<v Speaker 1>the barriers to getting an innocent person out are incredibly high.

0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.840
<v Speaker 1>How did you get involved in the case, How did

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:52.000
<v Speaker 1>you win it against all these obstacles? And this was

0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.560
<v Speaker 1>the first exoneration for the Coolie Center at the Michigan

0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:57.320
<v Speaker 1>Instance Project right it was.

0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.520
<v Speaker 3>What happened was is I had gone to a Criminal

0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.119
<v Speaker 3>Defense Attorney of Michigan conference to hear Barry Shock speak

0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.760
<v Speaker 3>and the people from the Innisonce Project were there. So

0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:09.960
<v Speaker 3>I went out. I signed up and I said, you know,

0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:11.960
<v Speaker 3>you get a case in McComb County, call me. I'd

0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:15.560
<v Speaker 3>be happy to do it, and they did so. In

0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:17.800
<v Speaker 3>April or May of two thousand and two, I went

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:19.800
<v Speaker 3>to the Cooley Law School, I picked up the file.

0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:22.760
<v Speaker 3>I read it over the summer. I met Ken and

0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:27.639
<v Speaker 3>decided to file the motion in November, and when I

0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 3>was putting the motion together, it became pretty glaring that

0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:37.439
<v Speaker 3>something terribly wrong had happened. The identification was so bad

0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:41.200
<v Speaker 3>that it's hard to imagine that it formed the basis

0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.240
<v Speaker 3>for Ken's involvement and ultimate conviction because there wasn't anything

0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:49.359
<v Speaker 3>else to work with. Frankly, and at the time of trial.

0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:53.240
<v Speaker 3>What happens is is that the complainant points to Ken

0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.520
<v Speaker 3>and says, I'm one hundred percent sure he's the perpetrator.

0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:59.879
<v Speaker 3>So you have that, you have the snitch witness, and

0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:04.280
<v Speaker 3>you know it's pretty compelling testimony. So I filed the

0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:09.120
<v Speaker 3>motion to get the biological evidence tested, the court granted it.

0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:13.760
<v Speaker 3>The detective Ouston was vehemently opposed to the testing and

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.480
<v Speaker 3>said so on the record. Judge Serveto said he was

0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.879
<v Speaker 3>going to have the evidence tested, and I went to

0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:23.760
<v Speaker 3>the Clinton Chownship Police Department with the Assistant prosecutor and

0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:26.600
<v Speaker 3>Detective Oustin was there. We went through all the biological evidence.

0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.800
<v Speaker 3>There was an enormous amount. The rape kit had never

0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:33.040
<v Speaker 3>been opened, and so we did a chain of evidence

0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:34.760
<v Speaker 3>on all that. It was sent up to the Michigan

0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:37.879
<v Speaker 3>State Police Crime Lab and then we waited for the results.

0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:40.480
<v Speaker 3>And then on June eleventh, I got a phone call

0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:43.359
<v Speaker 3>from the county prosecutor that the DNA results are coming

0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:45.560
<v Speaker 3>in and they looked favorable to Ken. And when they

0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:49.439
<v Speaker 3>came in, indeed they were. A cigarette butt at the

0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:54.440
<v Speaker 3>scene showed salava from an unknown donor, a fingernail scraping

0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:59.200
<v Speaker 3>from the complainant showed an unknown donor. And then there

0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.800
<v Speaker 3>was semen a extracted from a pantyhose that was used

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 3>to secure her that also showed semen from an unknown donor.

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.119
<v Speaker 3>So there were three pieces of evidence that corroborated that

0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:14.160
<v Speaker 3>Ken was factually not the perpetrator and innocent.

0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when you got this evidence, you must have been

0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:21.199
<v Speaker 1>jumping for joy. I was how did you get the

0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:25.160
<v Speaker 1>message to Ken? And what was that moment like for both?

0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:26.920
<v Speaker 1>Did you call him? Did you go visit him?

0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:30.000
<v Speaker 3>You know, it happened like late in the afternoon when

0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:31.720
<v Speaker 3>I got the call, and I couldn't even believe it.

0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:34.240
<v Speaker 3>I was so excited, so I got in my car

0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 3>to drive down to the prison. You know, I wanted

0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:38.720
<v Speaker 3>him to hear it directly from me. And as I

0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:40.879
<v Speaker 3>was driving to the prison, I started to get so

0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:44.480
<v Speaker 3>sad because almost ten years of his life was gone.

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:48.000
<v Speaker 3>His dad had died, his son had grown up. You know,

0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:51.359
<v Speaker 3>families are blown apart by these things. It's hard to

0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:54.479
<v Speaker 3>repair all the things that happened and all this time, so,

0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:56.879
<v Speaker 3>you know, those thoughts are going through my mind. I

0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.440
<v Speaker 3>finally get through security at the prison and I meet Ken,

0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 3>and I think my face was such that Ken was

0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:05.119
<v Speaker 3>afraid I was bringing bad news instead of good news.

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:08.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, Jason, I can remember that moment like it

0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:10.600
<v Speaker 2>was yesterday. I was in my bunk and the guards

0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:12.200
<v Speaker 2>came to get me and he said, you have to

0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:14.080
<v Speaker 2>get up front right away. Your attorney's waiting for you

0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:16.480
<v Speaker 2>up front, and I'm thinking my dad had passed away

0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:20.119
<v Speaker 2>and my mom wasn't doing very well herself. So when

0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:22.040
<v Speaker 2>the guards telling me I have to get up there asap,

0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking, geez, don't tell me that my mom passed away,

0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:28.040
<v Speaker 2>because I had a rough time losing my dad and

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.720
<v Speaker 2>not being allowed to go to the funeral. And I

0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:33.400
<v Speaker 2>remember when Gail walked in and she had this look

0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:35.840
<v Speaker 2>on her face and said, Gale, what's the matter. And

0:26:35.880 --> 0:26:38.000
<v Speaker 2>she said, Kenny, I don't know how to tell you this.

0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.080
<v Speaker 2>I said, Gail, please don't tell me something happened to

0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.520
<v Speaker 2>my mother. And Gail said, Kenny, I just talked to

0:26:43.520 --> 0:26:46.200
<v Speaker 2>your mom about a hour ago. She's real happy. I said, then,

0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:48.480
<v Speaker 2>what's going on? Why are you here? And she said

0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:50.800
<v Speaker 2>that she got word from the prosecutor's office. I am

0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:54.200
<v Speaker 2>an innocent man, and Parrel Melinga wants me released. And

0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:56.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you remember this, Gail. I got

0:26:56.320 --> 0:26:59.439
<v Speaker 2>up and I picked you up by your waist and

0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:03.120
<v Speaker 2>I was swinging around Jason. I said, what happened? What happened?

0:27:03.160 --> 0:27:04.880
<v Speaker 2>And she said, Ken, if you put my ass down,

0:27:04.920 --> 0:27:07.359
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you what happened. And the rest is history.

0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:09.920
<v Speaker 2>I why, I'll tell you what. That's one moment that

0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:12.639
<v Speaker 2>I'll never forget as long as I've lived. Never And

0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:13.080
<v Speaker 2>then he.

0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:15.280
<v Speaker 3>Was released on June seventeen, two thousand and three.

0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:20.000
<v Speaker 1>So after you were released, Glenn McCormick recanted his testimony

0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:23.000
<v Speaker 1>and then a sworn affidavit told the story of his

0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:27.399
<v Speaker 1>coercion by Linda Davis and Detective Oaston, and later you

0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:30.520
<v Speaker 1>file the federal civil rights lawsuit that was eventually settled

0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 1>for three point seven million. Now we got to talk

0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:36.000
<v Speaker 1>about the work that you're doing. I think it's one

0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:38.840
<v Speaker 1>of the reasons why people in the innocence community can

0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:41.800
<v Speaker 1>have so much respect for you, and why I've really

0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:45.400
<v Speaker 1>been looking forward to this podcast, not because of your

0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:51.440
<v Speaker 1>amazing sense of humor, but more because what's that great saying?

0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:54.600
<v Speaker 1>This applies right to you. You ready, Yep? The saying

0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:57.760
<v Speaker 1>is from somebody they've Stephanie Sparkles. She said, I love

0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:00.320
<v Speaker 1>when people that have been through hell walked out of

0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:03.680
<v Speaker 1>the flames carrying buckets of water for those still consumed

0:28:03.680 --> 0:28:07.399
<v Speaker 1>by the fire. Can that is you to a t

0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:11.399
<v Speaker 1>You could be doing anything at all. No one would

0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:13.600
<v Speaker 1>fault you if you wanted to go be out on

0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:16.840
<v Speaker 1>an island somewhere with your toes in the sand and

0:28:16.920 --> 0:28:19.760
<v Speaker 1>a drink in each hand. You know, but that's not

0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:22.959
<v Speaker 1>the reality at all. You have hit the ground running

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:28.119
<v Speaker 1>that have been making an impact on not just individual cases,

0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:31.240
<v Speaker 1>but on the macro issues that have already effected and

0:28:31.240 --> 0:28:33.560
<v Speaker 1>are going to continue effect even long after you're gone

0:28:34.160 --> 0:28:37.880
<v Speaker 1>people in Michigan and even in the broader movement. So

0:28:38.000 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 1>talk to us about the work that you've been doing.

0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:41.280
<v Speaker 1>And would I mean seal.

0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, I meet myself an agenda. I was still locked up,

0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:45.080
<v Speaker 2>but I knew it was just a matter of time

0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:47.360
<v Speaker 2>before the truth would come out. And one thing I

0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:50.760
<v Speaker 2>wanted to do. I wanted to have a wrawful compensation

0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:53.160
<v Speaker 2>build passed here in Michigan because we didn't have one

0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:55.160
<v Speaker 2>at the time. And as a matter of fact, in

0:28:55.200 --> 0:28:56.920
<v Speaker 2>the state of Michigan, if you were in prison for

0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:59.400
<v Speaker 2>a crime that you did commit and your release from prison,

0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.480
<v Speaker 2>state will help you get housing, job, trading clothing, food stamps, Okay,

0:29:03.640 --> 0:29:05.760
<v Speaker 2>you have to get your back on your feet. If

0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:08.479
<v Speaker 2>you are someone like myself or my fellow of Eanna

0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:11.720
<v Speaker 2>rees who are totally innocent and released from prison, you

0:29:11.760 --> 0:29:15.200
<v Speaker 2>don't get a penny. That's just ridiculous. So I worked

0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:17.400
<v Speaker 2>twelve and a half years to have that bill passed

0:29:18.000 --> 0:29:20.080
<v Speaker 2>and another bill that I worked on. There are so

0:29:20.120 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 2>many unsolved, untested rate cases in the state of Michigan,

0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:26.200
<v Speaker 2>especially in Wayne County in the Detroit area. I had

0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:29.880
<v Speaker 2>this idea that before someone can be released from prison

0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:33.120
<v Speaker 2>on parole, they have to submit a DNA sample. That

0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:36.040
<v Speaker 2>DNA sample will go into the National Code system and

0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:38.360
<v Speaker 2>maybe they get one hit they take. It's all one

0:29:38.440 --> 0:29:41.000
<v Speaker 2>rape of one murder. It'll be good. It's a good thing.

0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 2>So that bill is passed in the middle of two

0:29:43.040 --> 0:29:47.000
<v Speaker 2>thousand and eight, and ironically, that was how they caught

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:51.160
<v Speaker 2>the actual rapist in my case because of that bill. Wow,

0:29:51.400 --> 0:29:55.240
<v Speaker 2>the actual rapist his name is Craig Gonzer. He was

0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:58.680
<v Speaker 2>about to be released from prison. He gave a DNA sample.

0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:01.760
<v Speaker 2>That's how he was found. Now, one thing I want

0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:06.240
<v Speaker 2>to make perfectly clear how bad wrongful misidentifications are. The

0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:08.440
<v Speaker 2>victim said, you know, she never saw guy's face. She

0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 2>thought he was sixty two or sixty three, two hundred

0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:14.120
<v Speaker 2>and twenty two hundred and thirty pounds deep left chin At

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:16.600
<v Speaker 2>the time, I was five foot eleven, one hundred and

0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:21.840
<v Speaker 2>eighty five pounds. Okay, mister Gonzer. The actual rapist is

0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:28.720
<v Speaker 2>six foot six, two hundred and ninety pounds. Wow, So

0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:30.960
<v Speaker 2>I was only eight inches off in height and one

0:30:31.040 --> 0:30:33.280
<v Speaker 2>hundred and five pounds in weight. You know. To me,

0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:36.480
<v Speaker 2>that shows more definite proof that the police knew that

0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>they were framing an innocent man. So I'm happy about

0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:41.440
<v Speaker 2>doing that. I'm working on something the last three or

0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:44.960
<v Speaker 2>four years about the qualified immunity issue that has to go.

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.280
<v Speaker 2>This testimony has to go, and I don't care how

0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:50.760
<v Speaker 2>long is that take me. I'll get it done.

0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:54.560
<v Speaker 1>So there's some new development as we're speaking now that

0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:57.080
<v Speaker 1>I know you were so excited about. Tell us quickly

0:30:57.120 --> 0:30:57.640
<v Speaker 1>about that.

0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Well. The good news is this deals direct with Gail,

0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and I'm so proud of her. She is the most

0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:05.920
<v Speaker 2>remarkable w and I've ever met in my life. We

0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:08.400
<v Speaker 2>have a new prosecutor Mcoon County's name is Pete Licito,

0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:10.840
<v Speaker 2>and you know more about it than I do.

0:31:11.240 --> 0:31:15.760
<v Speaker 3>Pete has started and gotten the budget to start up

0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:18.960
<v Speaker 3>what's known as a Conviction Integrity Unit, and the idea

0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:21.960
<v Speaker 3>is is once it's up and running, it will review

0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:26.800
<v Speaker 3>cases to determine whether or not innocent people are in prison.

0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:29.720
<v Speaker 2>The good thing is the good news is Pete Licito

0:31:29.800 --> 0:31:33.480
<v Speaker 2>has named Gail the director of the mcleoon County CiU.

0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Gail told me the news about that that could be

0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:38.160
<v Speaker 2>a miracle in itself.

0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:41.320
<v Speaker 3>The whole idea is the fair administration of justice, and

0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:44.440
<v Speaker 3>that exists on both ends, both on the prosecutorial and

0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:48.480
<v Speaker 3>on the side of innocence and wrongful convictions to right

0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:51.960
<v Speaker 3>those wrongs. And Pete has a definite interest in making

0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:54.120
<v Speaker 3>sure that the right people are in prison.

0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:57.200
<v Speaker 2>The prosecutor, in my opinion, should be not only the

0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:00.040
<v Speaker 2>sort of justice he or she has to be the

0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 2>shield of justice.

0:32:01.200 --> 0:32:03.880
<v Speaker 1>Also well said, and Ken, if people want to know

0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 1>more about you or your story, you have a book

0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:09.000
<v Speaker 1>now right You have a book that's available right now.

0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:10.320
<v Speaker 1>How can our audience find that?

0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:12.800
<v Speaker 2>In case anyone would like to read my book, my

0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:15.600
<v Speaker 2>book is called Deliberate Injustice, the run Full Conviction of

0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:19.719
<v Speaker 2>Ken Whinemko. You can go online. The website is Deliberate

0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:24.080
<v Speaker 2>injusticethebook dot com. You can also watch a story about

0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:27.880
<v Speaker 2>my case on Netflix. The series is called The Innocence Files.

0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.440
<v Speaker 2>My episode is number nine is called the Million Dollar Man.

0:32:31.920 --> 0:32:34.080
<v Speaker 1>We'll have that link in the bio. And now we

0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:36.800
<v Speaker 1>go to the closing of our show, which is always

0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.880
<v Speaker 1>my favorite part. We call it closing Arguments, where first

0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:44.800
<v Speaker 1>of all, I think are two incredible guests. Of course, Ken,

0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:49.240
<v Speaker 1>Whyemko You are a hero, and I'm so proud of

0:32:49.280 --> 0:32:51.200
<v Speaker 1>you and all the work you've done, and I'm looking

0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:53.959
<v Speaker 1>forward to continuing to work together to make the system

0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:56.760
<v Speaker 1>fairer and better for everyone. And of course, Gil Palm

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:59.080
<v Speaker 1>a coff, I know how much this case meant to you,

0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:01.920
<v Speaker 1>so it's so great that you're here to share this

0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:05.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of triumphant retelling of this awful saga and of

0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:08.600
<v Speaker 1>course a good that came from it. So how this

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:11.160
<v Speaker 1>segment of the show works is very very simple. I'm

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:13.960
<v Speaker 1>going to turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair,

0:33:14.240 --> 0:33:17.120
<v Speaker 1>leave my headphones on, and probably close my eyes, and

0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:20.720
<v Speaker 1>then closing arguments. Basically, you could just say anything else

0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:23.600
<v Speaker 1>you want to say anything. We haven't covered anything you

0:33:23.640 --> 0:33:26.280
<v Speaker 1>want to share with our audience. GAILI you start with

0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:28.360
<v Speaker 1>all due respect to you, but to save the best

0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:29.560
<v Speaker 1>for last, well.

0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:32.280
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for inviting me and Ken to

0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:35.160
<v Speaker 3>talk on your show. This is a really important subject

0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:37.760
<v Speaker 3>and from the standpoint of a lawyer, it's an exciting

0:33:37.840 --> 0:33:40.640
<v Speaker 3>area to be in. It's also in heartbreaking area to

0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:45.320
<v Speaker 3>work in. Just to give your listeners some context in

0:33:45.400 --> 0:33:48.600
<v Speaker 3>terms of the degree of the problem, the Department of

0:33:48.760 --> 0:33:52.400
<v Speaker 3>Justice reports that in twenty nineteen, there were two million,

0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:55.840
<v Speaker 3>eighty six thousand people in prison in the United States.

0:33:56.280 --> 0:33:59.960
<v Speaker 3>The Innocence Project of West Virginia says that between three

0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:03.080
<v Speaker 3>and six percent of those in prison are wrongfully convicted.

0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:06.280
<v Speaker 3>Three percent is sixty two thousand, five hundred and eighty

0:34:06.280 --> 0:34:09.280
<v Speaker 3>people and six percent are one hundred and twenty five thousand,

0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:12.719
<v Speaker 3>one hundred and sixty people at any given time. And

0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:15.279
<v Speaker 3>the truth is, I don't think anybody really knows the

0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:20.040
<v Speaker 3>real numbers. These are extrapolations of these different programs. The

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:23.279
<v Speaker 3>National Registry of Exoneration and keeps tracks of all the

0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:27.879
<v Speaker 3>exonerations in the United States reports that since nineteen eighty nine,

0:34:28.560 --> 0:34:31.640
<v Speaker 3>there have best two nine hundred and thirty seven ex generations.

0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:34.960
<v Speaker 3>Think about that, when at any moment in time, there's

0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:37.480
<v Speaker 3>up to one hundred and twenty five thousand people wrongfully

0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:41.520
<v Speaker 3>convicted in prison. It's an astounding problem. People think that

0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:44.760
<v Speaker 3>those in prison they're guilty, and people that make claims

0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:47.640
<v Speaker 3>of innocent are just blowing smoke. It's not true. The

0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:51.320
<v Speaker 3>wrongfully convicted, in the innocent are truly sitting in prisons.

0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:54.759
<v Speaker 3>So I hope that your audience takes away that this

0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:57.600
<v Speaker 3>does happen, can happen to you. It can happen to

0:34:57.640 --> 0:35:00.879
<v Speaker 3>your neighbor, your son, your father, your daughter, or your mother.

0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:05.360
<v Speaker 3>It happens, and it's a tragedy. It's almost an irreparable tragedy.

0:35:05.680 --> 0:35:08.360
<v Speaker 3>In Ken's case, he lost almost ten years of his life.

0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:11.279
<v Speaker 3>He is out, and he has done an amazing job

0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:15.200
<v Speaker 3>over these almost twenty years. He's an extraordinary human, but

0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:18.080
<v Speaker 3>he lost a lot too. And so I hope that

0:35:18.160 --> 0:35:22.279
<v Speaker 3>your audience takes away the large scope of the problem

0:35:22.840 --> 0:35:27.680
<v Speaker 3>and can also contribute locally and nationally in terms of

0:35:27.719 --> 0:35:33.839
<v Speaker 3>pressing politicians to create more conviction integrity units, support innocence projects,

0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:36.799
<v Speaker 3>support criminal justice reform, and that type of thing.

0:35:37.000 --> 0:35:40.839
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you, Gail. She is the epitome of

0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:44.919
<v Speaker 2>what an attorney should be. Jason, thank you for giving

0:35:44.960 --> 0:35:47.160
<v Speaker 2>me the opportunity to tell my story. It's only due

0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:49.880
<v Speaker 2>to people like you that AXA to reseuch as myself,

0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:53.160
<v Speaker 2>can't share their stories with the entire country with the

0:35:53.200 --> 0:35:57.560
<v Speaker 2>hopes of enlightening people to the truth. Wrongful convictions happen

0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:01.719
<v Speaker 2>every day in this country. They have to stop. They

0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:04.719
<v Speaker 2>must stop. I don't consider myself a hero, and I'm

0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:07.040
<v Speaker 2>just a good guy who wants to do the right thing.

0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:09.920
<v Speaker 2>And I don't want anyone to have to go through

0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:12.480
<v Speaker 2>what I or my family had to go through. It's

0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:15.360
<v Speaker 2>not fair, it's not right, it's not the way America

0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:18.000
<v Speaker 2>is supposed to be. We can change it. It takes

0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:19.680
<v Speaker 2>all of us to change it, each and every one

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>of us. Again, I want to thank you, Jason Gail.

0:36:22.960 --> 0:36:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I love you both. Let's keep up to fight. God

0:36:25.600 --> 0:36:28.480
<v Speaker 2>bless you, God bless everyone, and make God bless America.

0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:38.359
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd

0:36:38.400 --> 0:36:41.560
<v Speaker 1>like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden,

0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:45.239
<v Speaker 1>Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis. With research by Lyla Robinson.

0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:47.719
<v Speaker 1>The music in this production was supplied by three time

0:36:47.840 --> 0:36:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:56.560
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast,

0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.399
<v Speaker 1>and on Twitter. At Wrong Conviction as well as at

0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:02.799
<v Speaker 1>Lava for Good on all three platforms. You can also

0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:06.480
<v Speaker 1>follow me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason

0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:09.439
<v Speaker 1>flam Ravel. Conviction is the production of Lava for Good

0:37:09.440 --> 0:37:18.640
<v Speaker 1>podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one