1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: On April thirtieth, nineteen ninety four, a man in a 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: nylon stocking mass broke into a twenty eight year old 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: woman's home in Michigan while she slept. He blindfolded and 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: raped her over the course of several hours before leaving. 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Since the victim was blindfold and it had only caught 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: a few glimpses of her attacker, the composite sketch she 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: created with investigators was deemed only sixty percent accurate when 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: the sketch hit the media. A bowling alley manager named 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: Ken win Nemko was named by a disgruntled X as 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: a potential culprit. Ken had recently ejected an off duty 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: cop from his bowling alley for being drunken disorderly, which 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: was not taken kindly by the officer's friends on the force. 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: With this grudge looming, and despite Ken not matching the 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: physical description, detectives acted on this dubious tip and manipulated 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: a lineup to produce his identification. DNA testing was available, 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: but not done yet. Even the rology testing of the 17 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: biological evidence from the attack was again not a match 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: for Ken. However, while Can awaited trial in jail, the 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: assistant prosecutor offered his cell made a deal to join 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: the lead detective in giving false testimony that Ken had 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: confessed to the rape. His hastily appointed defense attorney did 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: not have time to prepare, and between the false testimony, 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 1: the shaky composite sketch, and the bogus lineup, the jury 24 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: ignored the exculpatory roology and sent Ken away to prison 25 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: for forty to sixty years. With the help of the 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: Cooley Innocence Project in Michigan, Ken was finally able to 27 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: obtain the biological evidence, including an unopened rape kit, to 28 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: find out who had really committed this horrific crime nearly 29 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: a decade prior. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 30 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Today's story is one that I've heard whispered 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: about ever since it happened, in hush tones in the 32 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: innocence community, where people talk about how this was one 33 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: of the worst examples of our criminal legal system. And 34 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: also people have talked to me for a long time 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: about this man and the incredible work that he's done 36 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: evil from inside the walls of prison. You got to 37 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: hear this story to believe it. And I'm talking about 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: the man who's on the air with us right now, 39 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: Ken way Namko, thank you for being here. Welcome to 40 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: Wronful Conviction. 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: Jason, it is my pleasure. Thank you for inviting. 42 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: Us, and with him is an awesome character in her 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: own right. Gail Palmakoff, attorney with the Kooli Innocence Project 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: based out of Michigan, where this horrible crime happened. Gail, 45 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: first of all, thank you for all the incredible work 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: you're doing, and welcome to the show. I'm so glad 47 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: to have you here. 48 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you for having me. 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: So this case goes all the way back to the 50 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: early mid nineties. But Ken, what was your life like 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: before you got wrapped up in this well. 52 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: I started with GM right after high school. I was 53 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: working with my two brothers and my dad were all 54 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: skilled trade workers. I was married from nineteen seventy five 55 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: to nineteen eighty and my father in law owned a 56 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: nightclub and a bowling center in Detroit. It's called Falcon Lanes. 57 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: So I was working for a GM during the day 58 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: and I was working at the bowling yelly in nightclub 59 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: at night. Then I went out on my own and 60 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: I was just managing bowling Centers, and I was managing 61 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 2: at center at the time at Kingswood Lane's in Macomb County, Michigan, 62 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: and that's how this whole incident started. 63 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you've got a good thing going there, 64 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: managing this bowling alley, a good peaceful life. But here's 65 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: where the seed of this story is planted with you 66 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: and the police, right, so please take us through this. 67 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: It was on a Friday night. We had a family 68 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: bowling night. Okay, the parents would bringing their kids in. 69 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: We get free pizza everyone, and the place was jammed. 70 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: So I was sitting in my office. One of my waitresses, Kelly, 71 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: came into my office and she says, Kenny, there's a 72 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: guy bowling on Lane twelve. She thought he was drunk, 73 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: and she said that she noticed that the guy had 74 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: two bowling bags. One he had two bowling balls in 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: and the other bag he had cans of Miller Lite. 76 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: So I came out of my office and there was 77 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: a father, mother, and two kids on Leane eleven and 78 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: this guy was getting an argument with him. So I 79 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 2: walked down there and I said, excuse me, do these 80 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: two bags belong to you? He says, who the hell 81 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: are you. I said, my name is Kenny. I'm the 82 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: manager's place. I said what's your name? And he said 83 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: my name is John. So I said, well, John, I said, 84 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: do you mind if I take a look into the 85 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: second bag over here? He said why, what's the problem. 86 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: I said, that's my right, I'm doing my job. Opened 87 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: up the second bag. He hit eleven cans of Miller 88 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: Lite in that bag. So I said, John, do yourself 89 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: a favor. I said, take your bulling shoes back to 90 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 2: the counter, get your refunder. You're all done bullings for tonight. 91 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 2: You brought this beer into my establishment, and that's illegal. 92 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: He said, I bought that beer here. I said, John, 93 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: I know you're lying to me because we don't sell 94 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: canned beer. All the beer that we sell are in bottles. 95 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: And I grabbed the bag with the beer in it. 96 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 2: He said, where you go? And that's you know, that's mine. 97 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,119 Speaker 2: I said, well, you come back and talk to me tomorrow. John. 98 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: The place is packed. I don't want to argue with you. 99 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 2: So I got the bag, took any office with me, 100 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: put it on our floor. About ten minutes later, this 101 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: guy comes in the office. He said, what do you 102 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: say your name was? I said, my name is ken One. 103 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 2: He said, well, can I just want you to know 104 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: that I'm not leaving here until I get my beer bag. 105 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: And his voice started getting louder and louder. I said, look, John, 106 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: I told you I'm not going to argue with you tonight. 107 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: One way or another. You're leaving this building. If you 108 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: don't want to leave on your own, I'll throw you out. 109 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: And he said you can't throw me out of here, 110 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: and he reached in his pocket and he pulled out 111 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: a putting down to police bands. And I said, you 112 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: should know better that you cannot bring alcohol into establishment 113 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: that has a LOOKU license. He said, I'm not leaving 114 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: until I get that beer. So I got up, got 115 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: him in a headlocked and he's still holding on to 116 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: this bag with his bowling balls in it, and I 117 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: started dragging him towards the front door, two double glass 118 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: doors and a vestibule leading out in the parking lot. 119 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: And as I'm dragging him up, he takes the bag 120 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: with a bullying balls and he shatters the glass doors, 121 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: dragged him outside, threw him out of parking lot. I 122 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: told him I'll see you later. So on the way back, 123 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: I told one of my porters to get a broom 124 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: and sleep up the glass. I go back in the office. 125 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: About twenty minutes after that, carry the counterman comes in. 126 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: He says, Kenny, there's two uniform cops out here whant 127 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: to talk to you. So they come in and asked me, 128 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: I heard you had a problem over here about a 129 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 2: half hour ago. So I told him the same thing 130 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: I just told you. I tried to be as nice 131 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: as I could to him, but he didn't want to listen, 132 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 2: and I repeated to them the same thing I told John. 133 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 2: If he was a cop, you know better than to 134 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: bring alcohol and to establishment that has a liquor license. 135 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: His partner says, is your liquor license up to date? 136 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: I said, yes, it is. I said it's posted on 137 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: the wall behind our bar, where it's supposed to be 138 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: by law. And he said, well, do you matter if 139 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: I take a look at it. I said no, as 140 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: a matter of fact, I'll take a walk with you. 141 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: So we walked inside the bar. I pulled a license 142 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: off the wall and our shoulder to him. In meantime, 143 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: his partner started walking around the whole bar, up and 144 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 2: down the lanes, looking around, and he finally came back, 145 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 2: says everything okay, officer, And he said, well, Kenny, to 146 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: be honest with you, and we'll come back to check 147 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 2: on your five or six months down the road, make 148 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: sure you're okay. Is that some kind of a threat 149 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: his partnership. We don't make threats. We keep promises. And 150 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: he walked out the door. So that's how this whole 151 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: thing began. I believe. 152 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: Wow, that's such a sinister scenario. Just I mean, I 153 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: don't think anybody who wanted to be in your shoes 154 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: at that point. And Gail, I want to turn to 155 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: you now. Can you take us back to the crime 156 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: itself and how they managed to get anyone in their 157 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: right mind to believe that Ken was involved. 158 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 3: The basic facts are is that on April thirtieth of 159 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, the woman the complainant, had been at 160 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: a party earlier in the day. She came home, She 161 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: went to bed at about two am. Later in the morning, 162 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 3: closer to five, she wakes up and there's a masked 163 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 3: man in her room. He had a nylon over his head. 164 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 3: He went and got underwear out of her drawer, put 165 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: panties over her head, and then over the course of 166 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 3: the next couple of hours engaged in multiple full acts 167 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: of sexual penetration. She never really saw the perpetrator. She 168 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: said that when he took his mask off, she couldn't 169 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: see him, and that when he lifted the mask at all, 170 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 3: she only got glimpses of him. He left, he had 171 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 3: secured her hands to the bed. She was able to 172 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 3: get herself extricated. She went to the neighbors sought help. 173 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: She was taken to the hospital. A rape kip was performed. 174 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: The police got involved in investigation, and on the day 175 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: that this occurred, they took her statements, and she told 176 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: the officers that she really did not get a good 177 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 3: look at this perpetrator. He was masked, she was masked. 178 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 3: They said, can you help with the composite. She didn't 179 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 3: think that she would be very helpful because she didn't 180 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 3: see the man. 181 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: She said. At one point, the guy's mask had risen 182 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: above his chin. She said he had a deep cleft chin. 183 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: She could tell he was a smoker at times he 184 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: had thought she heard and an inhaler, and she estimated 185 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: that he was about six one six foot two, about 186 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: two hundred and twenty and thirty pounds. I was five 187 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 2: foot eleven, one hundred and eighty five pounds, never had 188 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: a cleft chain in my life. Didn't smoke back then, okay, 189 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: And so I smoke until I got to Jackson Prison. 190 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: Now those are the facts. 191 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 3: So she gave a composite, and on the composite it's 192 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: a sixty percent accurate. She was not able to identify 193 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 3: critical features. He was masked with a nylon. She was 194 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 3: blindfolded with panties that were later secured with a necktie. 195 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 3: But the composite was out in the media and one 196 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 3: of Ken's ex girlfriend, a very disgruntled ex girlfriend, thought 197 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: the composite looked like Ken. Contacted the Clinton Township Police Department, 198 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 3: and that's how Ken gets involved is through the composite. 199 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: This is July fourteenth. I'm home in bed, sleeping by 200 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: eight thirty in the morning, and there's a knockout my 201 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: front door. So I got up to answer the door 202 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: and there's a young lady setting in my porch and 203 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 2: I said, can I help you? And she said, is 204 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: your name Kenny? I said, yes it is. What can 205 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: I do for you? Well? She moved on a side. 206 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: Four playing clothes officers rushed me, attacking me toy threw 207 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: me down on the floor in my living room and 208 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: handcuffed me behind my back, and I'm rolling around saying, 209 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: what the hell's going up? This woman was a detective 210 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 2: and she told me that they have a warrant for 211 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: my arrest. I'm going to be taken down to the 212 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 2: Mcomb County Jail to be placed in the lineup because 213 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: I'm suspected of being the person that committed to Bee 214 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: I'm Robbie in a rape back in April, and I said, 215 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: what the hell are you talking about? So they took 216 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 2: me down to the McComb County Jail and Detective Oastin 217 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: was the lead detective at the time. He told me 218 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: how was we replaced in a lineup? Because they had 219 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: received an anonymous phone call that Ken, when im Goo, 220 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 2: the manager at Kingsworth lanees looks like a deposit that 221 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 2: was issued in the paper about this woman who was 222 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 2: robbed in a rape. 223 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 3: So at that point the detectives bring Ken in, they 224 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: put them in a lineup. They bring in the complainant 225 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: in the rape case and she's in the lineup room. 226 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: She looks at the six folks is unable to identify Ken, 227 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 3: goes out speaks with members of the prospect Tuter's office. 228 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 3: Comes back in the people in the lineup rass to say, 229 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 3: I don't remember what the words are, Ken, you probably do. 230 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: What time does your husband come home? Right? There are 231 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 2: six of us, and there are all five guys had mustaches. 232 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 2: I'd never had a mustache in my life. And when 233 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 2: they first put us in the lineup together, I was 234 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: in number six position. They took her out to talk 235 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 2: to the prosecutor and her assistant and Detective Osten. During 236 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: that time, an officer brought in a riser like a 237 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: three inch high riser had a wood. They brought it in. 238 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: They put it under the number two spot. They moved 239 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 2: the guy that was a number two spot to the 240 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: number six spot. They moved me and made me stand 241 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: in that riser in number two position. 242 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 3: And after that she says Ken is the one, and 243 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: that's how Ken gets roped into this whole thing. 244 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: This episode is under it by AIG, a leading global 245 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: insurance company. AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and 246 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: is making a positive difference in the lives of its 247 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: employees and in the communities where we work and live. 248 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: In light of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, 249 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: and in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social 250 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: justice reform, The AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal 251 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: services and other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. 252 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: The complainant reported in her written statements that the perpetrator 253 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 3: ejaculated three times, one of which was oral, and with 254 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: respect to the oral ejaculation, you wiped her mouth out 255 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 3: with a pair of panties and they were left at 256 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 3: the scene. The point is is that there was an 257 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 3: enormous amount of biological evidence, including a ratekit, that was 258 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 3: collected after this crime at the hospital that day. 259 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: Some of it was tested, some of it wasn't. But 260 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: the biological evidence that was tested was tested using techniques 261 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: that were not the best techniques available sorology testing I'm 262 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: talking about. They didn't use DNA, and furthermore, the testing 263 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: that was done didn't help their case at all because 264 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: it didn't match ken. 265 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 266 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 3: In fact, there was nothing at all that tied came 267 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 3: to this rape except that composite. 268 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: This composite sketch, which even the victim said was only 269 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: sixty percent accurate, and no one could have created an 270 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: accurate sketch from this for the reason we've already talked about, 271 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: and of course this bogus lineup which they tried to 272 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: use every thirty trick in the book in order to 273 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: get hurt to identify you in the lineup. 274 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: Well, they released me. After the lineup was done, I 275 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: had called my dad to come and pick me up, 276 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: you know from the gail. My dad was seventy six 277 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: years old. Who went back to my house and pulled 278 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: in a driveway in. I could see all the lights around. 279 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 2: Their doors were open, and I'm thinking, what the hell 280 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: is going on? So walk inside the house. It looked 281 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: like a tornado had gone through my house. Everything was 282 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: tossed and turned. The cops were so arrogant. They went 283 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: inside my refrigerator. I had jars of pickles and peppers, 284 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: and they broke the jars on my kitchen floor. My 285 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: dad started crying, and guy said, Dad, I said, don't worry, 286 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: go home and try to get some sleep. I'll clean up. 287 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: So I stayed up mostly I trying to put everything 288 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: back together. Got up next morning and I went to 289 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: Myers to buy some of the stuff that the cops 290 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: had broken. Come back home, pulling the driveway and Oastin 291 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: and his partner Bart Myrlett, they pulled in behind my 292 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: rear bumper like to try to block me off. So 293 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: I get out of the car and I'm holding one 294 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: bag the grocer's on my left hand, and Oastin says, one, 295 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: I'm going to put that bag on a ground, put 296 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: your hands on top of the car. So I put 297 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: the bag on a driveway, put my hand on top 298 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: of the car, and handcuffed me behind my back. And 299 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: I said, you want to tell me what's going on now? 300 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: He said, well, I'm under arrest for this bee armed 301 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 2: robbery and the rape because I was identified the day 302 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: before in that lineup. And I said, look, I'm not 303 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: the smartest guy in the world, but I'm not stupid. 304 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: If I was identified in that lineup, you guys would 305 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: never let me go. You do arrest of me running 306 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: on a spot, and I'll never forget this line as 307 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: long as I live. Olsen said, you know what, one 308 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: I'm going by the time I get done fucking with you, 309 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: is going to cost you a million dollars to get 310 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: your ass out of prison. Quote unquote. 311 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: It's really sick thing. I mean, who are you supposed 312 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: to call when the cops are the criminals. So here 313 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: you are. You've never been in trouble a day in 314 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: your life. Now you're sent into a jail. What was 315 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: that experience? Like? 316 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: That was hell step below prison, that's for sure. But 317 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: I wouldn't wish that on anyone. You know. I had 318 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: a quote opponent attorney. His name is Lawrence Peppler. Guy 319 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: wouldn't take my phone calls. So I filed a grievance 320 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 2: against him to try to get another attorney. We have 321 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: a hearing on a Friday afternoon in front of Judge Schwartz, 322 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: and Judge Schwartz said that he's not in the habit 323 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: of changing attorneys, and he told me that he's going 324 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: to give me a new Attorney's name is Albert Markowski. 325 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: And if I don't like him, I could defend myself. 326 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: And I told him Grunner, I don't know the first 327 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: thing about the law. But he's says, come Monday morning, 328 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: we're picking a jury. So what that means is this, 329 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 2: mister Markowski is going to have Saturday and Sunday to 330 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 2: prepare for a case. Fifteen counts of CSC. What kind 331 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: of b what kind of I'm robbery. 332 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: Gail, you got a way in on this. I mean, 333 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: did judge really appointed attorney on Friday who starts the 334 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: case on Monday, and explain CSC in these initials as well? 335 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: If you could. 336 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 3: A CSC one case, which is a criminal sexual assault 337 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: case first degree, involves acts of penetration, it's a life offense. 338 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: Anyone would need a lot of time to prepare for that, 339 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 3: particularly in this case because the rape itself was factually complex, 340 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 3: and then the process and procedure afterwards required a lot 341 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 3: of analysis. So two days a week doesn't matter, is 342 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 3: just totally insufficient. 343 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: So you go to trial, if you can even call 344 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: it that, it's a show trial in effect, right, I mean, 345 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: they gave you no hope in hell. I don't know 346 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: what was on the judge his mind, but one would 347 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: have hoped that the judge would have been an arbiter 348 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: in this and would have actually wanted to see justice done, 349 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: even though it seems like nobody else on that side 350 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: did or had any interest in it. But nonetheless, you're 351 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: now screwed. You've got this attorney who you've just met, 352 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: who hasn't had any time to do any investigation or 353 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: preparation of any kind, and now you go to trial. 354 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: So how long did the trial take? And did anyone 355 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: do anything to help you during this process? 356 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: No, mister Barkowski, I think I talked to him twice. 357 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 2: They picked a jury on Monday afternoon. The trial lasted 358 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: the rest of the week. The following week, jury came 359 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 2: back on Wednesday. 360 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: So, despite the victim's uncertainty regarding the composite sketch and 361 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: her glimpses of the attacker, the composite sketch was admitted 362 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: into evidence and the prosecution's case was centered on this 363 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: composite sketch because remember, Ken wasn't right, so there was 364 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: no forensic evidence connecting him to the crime, and of 365 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: course the zerology testing didn't connect into it either, So 366 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: the composite sketch, they realized, wasn't going to be enough 367 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: on its own, which brings us to this character named 368 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: Glenn McCormick. Gail, please tell us who this guy was 369 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: and the role that he played. 370 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 3: Glenn McCormick shared a cell with Ken for a little 371 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 3: while when he was in the Macomb County Jail. He 372 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 3: was released, he was contacted by Detective Oustin. He was 373 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 3: asked to come to the Clinton Township Police Department, and 374 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 3: he was told by Linda Davis, the prosecutor, that he 375 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 3: was in a world of hurt. He was charged with 376 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 3: armed robbery obstructing a police officer. He was a fourth 377 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 3: habitual so he had potentially a life sentence and that 378 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 3: if he would testify against Ken, you know, something could 379 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 3: be worked out with respect to his charges. And the 380 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 3: deal was his charges would be changed to attempt unarmed 381 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: robbery with It's a recommendation for a year in the 382 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 3: county jail, which is a whole lot different than a 383 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: potential life offense. 384 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: He was told by Lynda Davis and Ostin that if 385 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: he didn't testify to what they had in their reports, 386 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 2: Linda Davis guaranteed him that he would not see the 387 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: lighted date. 388 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 3: McCormick was in an interview room this discussion occurred, the 389 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 3: police report was placed in front of him. Linda Davis 390 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: and Detective Oston left the room. McCormick had an opportunity 391 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 3: to read the police report and that's how he learned 392 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 3: the facts of Ken's case. They came back into the 393 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: room and they did a recording of him. He testified 394 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 3: at trial that Ken said that, yeah, I did it. 395 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 3: They ain't got shit on me. I hit all the 396 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 3: evidence and so on. McCormick lied under oath during the trial. 397 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 3: It was pretty egregious. 398 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: So everybody knows you can't bribe a witness, right, you 399 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: get five years or more for bribing a witness. But 400 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: the government comes along and says to this guy, he's 401 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: very simple. You could choose door one, door number two. 402 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: Door number one you spend the the rest of your 403 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: life in prison, or door number two, which you might 404 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: find more pleasurable. You can simply lie in exactly the 405 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: ways that we tell you to, and we'll leave you 406 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: this document as we just sort of slink out of 407 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: the room, so you can learn about this case that 408 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: you know absolutely nothing about, and then you can lie 409 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: on the stand and then only spend about a year 410 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: in county jail. I mean, you make the decision, and 411 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: this guy, who was apparently not a terrific guy to 412 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: start with, was a very easy decision for him to make, 413 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: and so he got up on the stand and lied 414 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: under oath. Another crime. So the crimes just keep piling up, 415 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: but none of them are yours. It's amazing. So the 416 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: jury goes out, how long did they deliberate for? 417 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: They got the case on Friday afternoon, game back Wednesday, 418 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: November ninth. They're guilty in all counts. 419 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: So that moment when they came back and declared you 420 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: guilty and ultimately sends you to forty to sixty years 421 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: in prison, So a life sentenced because you weren't a 422 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: young man. I was forty three, right, A living death 423 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: send I mean, can you take us back to that 424 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: probably worst one way of your life. 425 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: I can. I can remember my dad was sitting right 426 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: behind me when it furdicure was announced and I could 427 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 2: hear my dad said no, no. He started crying and 428 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: I tried to get up to give him a hug, 429 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: and the court officers were stating right behind me. He 430 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 2: pushed me back down in the chair. I'll never forget 431 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 2: that day as long as I live. That moment. That's 432 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: one of the things that motivates me to do what 433 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 2: I've been doing for the last eighteen years, and I'll 434 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: never stop. When they put me in my first cell, Jason, 435 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: I was scared to that. I was shaking, I was crying, 436 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: and I sat down my bunk. I started to tear 437 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 2: the bed sheets into strips. I was going to hang myself. 438 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: That's how desponded I felt. I remember getting down on 439 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: my knees and praying, Lord, please show me the weight. 440 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: Please told me what to do. And as God is 441 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 2: my witness, I swear this is the truth. I could 442 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: feel like a hand touch my right shoulder and I 443 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: heard her voice say, Genny, You're going to be just fine. 444 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: And when I heard those words, something came over me. 445 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: I stood up and I just made my mind out. 446 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: I'm going to do whatever I have to do with 447 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: God's help to prove my innocence. 448 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: Well, you had God and Gail right so, and you 449 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: needed both. 450 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: Not only got in Gail, I had catch a sweatloaf 451 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: from the Innocence Project Kim Shine, who is a reporter 452 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: from the Detroit News. You know I've been blessed with 453 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: three angels and Gail. 454 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: We know it's so easy to get wrongfully convicted, and 455 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: the barriers to getting an innocent person out are incredibly high. 456 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: How did you get involved in the case, How did 457 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: you win it against all these obstacles? And this was 458 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: the first exoneration for the Coolie Center at the Michigan 459 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: Instance Project right it was. 460 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 3: What happened was is I had gone to a Criminal 461 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 3: Defense Attorney of Michigan conference to hear Barry Shock speak 462 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 3: and the people from the Innisonce Project were there. So 463 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 3: I went out. I signed up and I said, you know, 464 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 3: you get a case in McComb County, call me. I'd 465 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 3: be happy to do it, and they did so. In 466 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: April or May of two thousand and two, I went 467 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: to the Cooley Law School, I picked up the file. 468 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 3: I read it over the summer. I met Ken and 469 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 3: decided to file the motion in November, and when I 470 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: was putting the motion together, it became pretty glaring that 471 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 3: something terribly wrong had happened. The identification was so bad 472 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 3: that it's hard to imagine that it formed the basis 473 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 3: for Ken's involvement and ultimate conviction because there wasn't anything 474 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 3: else to work with. Frankly, and at the time of trial. 475 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 3: What happens is is that the complainant points to Ken 476 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 3: and says, I'm one hundred percent sure he's the perpetrator. 477 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 3: So you have that, you have the snitch witness, and 478 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: you know it's pretty compelling testimony. So I filed the 479 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 3: motion to get the biological evidence tested, the court granted it. 480 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 3: The detective Ouston was vehemently opposed to the testing and 481 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: said so on the record. Judge Serveto said he was 482 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 3: going to have the evidence tested, and I went to 483 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 3: the Clinton Chownship Police Department with the Assistant prosecutor and 484 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: Detective Oustin was there. We went through all the biological evidence. 485 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 3: There was an enormous amount. The rape kit had never 486 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 3: been opened, and so we did a chain of evidence 487 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 3: on all that. It was sent up to the Michigan 488 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 3: State Police Crime Lab and then we waited for the results. 489 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 3: And then on June eleventh, I got a phone call 490 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 3: from the county prosecutor that the DNA results are coming 491 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 3: in and they looked favorable to Ken. And when they 492 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 3: came in, indeed they were. A cigarette butt at the 493 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 3: scene showed salava from an unknown donor, a fingernail scraping 494 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 3: from the complainant showed an unknown donor. And then there 495 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: was semen a extracted from a pantyhose that was used 496 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: to secure her that also showed semen from an unknown donor. 497 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 3: So there were three pieces of evidence that corroborated that 498 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 3: Ken was factually not the perpetrator and innocent. 499 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you got this evidence, you must have been 500 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: jumping for joy. I was how did you get the 501 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: message to Ken? And what was that moment like for both? 502 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: Did you call him? Did you go visit him? 503 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: You know, it happened like late in the afternoon when 504 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 3: I got the call, and I couldn't even believe it. 505 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: I was so excited, so I got in my car 506 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 3: to drive down to the prison. You know, I wanted 507 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 3: him to hear it directly from me. And as I 508 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 3: was driving to the prison, I started to get so 509 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: sad because almost ten years of his life was gone. 510 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 3: His dad had died, his son had grown up. You know, 511 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: families are blown apart by these things. It's hard to 512 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 3: repair all the things that happened and all this time, so, 513 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 3: you know, those thoughts are going through my mind. I 514 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 3: finally get through security at the prison and I meet Ken, 515 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 3: and I think my face was such that Ken was 516 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 3: afraid I was bringing bad news instead of good news. 517 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: You know, Jason, I can remember that moment like it 518 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: was yesterday. I was in my bunk and the guards 519 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 2: came to get me and he said, you have to 520 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: get up front right away. Your attorney's waiting for you 521 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: up front, and I'm thinking my dad had passed away 522 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 2: and my mom wasn't doing very well herself. So when 523 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: the guards telling me I have to get up there asap, 524 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, geez, don't tell me that my mom passed away, 525 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: because I had a rough time losing my dad and 526 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: not being allowed to go to the funeral. And I 527 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 2: remember when Gail walked in and she had this look 528 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: on her face and said, Gale, what's the matter. And 529 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: she said, Kenny, I don't know how to tell you this. 530 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 2: I said, Gail, please don't tell me something happened to 531 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: my mother. And Gail said, Kenny, I just talked to 532 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 2: your mom about a hour ago. She's real happy. I said, then, 533 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 2: what's going on? Why are you here? And she said 534 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: that she got word from the prosecutor's office. I am 535 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: an innocent man, and Parrel Melinga wants me released. And 536 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this, Gail. I got 537 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: up and I picked you up by your waist and 538 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 2: I was swinging around Jason. I said, what happened? What happened? 539 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 2: And she said, Ken, if you put my ass down, 540 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what happened. And the rest is history. 541 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: I why, I'll tell you what. That's one moment that 542 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: I'll never forget as long as I've lived. Never And 543 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: then he. 544 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 3: Was released on June seventeen, two thousand and three. 545 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: So after you were released, Glenn McCormick recanted his testimony 546 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: and then a sworn affidavit told the story of his 547 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: coercion by Linda Davis and Detective Oaston, and later you 548 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: file the federal civil rights lawsuit that was eventually settled 549 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: for three point seven million. Now we got to talk 550 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: about the work that you're doing. I think it's one 551 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: of the reasons why people in the innocence community can 552 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: have so much respect for you, and why I've really 553 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: been looking forward to this podcast, not because of your 554 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: amazing sense of humor, but more because what's that great saying? 555 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: This applies right to you. You ready, Yep? The saying 556 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: is from somebody they've Stephanie Sparkles. She said, I love 557 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: when people that have been through hell walked out of 558 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: the flames carrying buckets of water for those still consumed 559 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: by the fire. Can that is you to a t 560 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: You could be doing anything at all. No one would 561 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: fault you if you wanted to go be out on 562 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: an island somewhere with your toes in the sand and 563 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: a drink in each hand. You know, but that's not 564 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,959 Speaker 1: the reality at all. You have hit the ground running 565 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: that have been making an impact on not just individual cases, 566 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: but on the macro issues that have already effected and 567 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: are going to continue effect even long after you're gone 568 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: people in Michigan and even in the broader movement. So 569 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: talk to us about the work that you've been doing. 570 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: And would I mean seal. 571 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: Well, I meet myself an agenda. I was still locked up, 572 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: but I knew it was just a matter of time 573 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 2: before the truth would come out. And one thing I 574 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: wanted to do. I wanted to have a wrawful compensation 575 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: build passed here in Michigan because we didn't have one 576 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: at the time. And as a matter of fact, in 577 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 2: the state of Michigan, if you were in prison for 578 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: a crime that you did commit and your release from prison, 579 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: state will help you get housing, job, trading clothing, food stamps, Okay, 580 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: you have to get your back on your feet. If 581 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 2: you are someone like myself or my fellow of Eanna 582 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: rees who are totally innocent and released from prison, you 583 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 2: don't get a penny. That's just ridiculous. So I worked 584 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: twelve and a half years to have that bill passed 585 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: and another bill that I worked on. There are so 586 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: many unsolved, untested rate cases in the state of Michigan, 587 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: especially in Wayne County in the Detroit area. I had 588 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: this idea that before someone can be released from prison 589 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: on parole, they have to submit a DNA sample. That 590 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: DNA sample will go into the National Code system and 591 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: maybe they get one hit they take. It's all one 592 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 2: rape of one murder. It'll be good. It's a good thing. 593 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 2: So that bill is passed in the middle of two 594 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: thousand and eight, and ironically, that was how they caught 595 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: the actual rapist in my case because of that bill. Wow, 596 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 2: the actual rapist his name is Craig Gonzer. He was 597 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: about to be released from prison. He gave a DNA sample. 598 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: That's how he was found. Now, one thing I want 599 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: to make perfectly clear how bad wrongful misidentifications are. The 600 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: victim said, you know, she never saw guy's face. She 601 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: thought he was sixty two or sixty three, two hundred 602 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: and twenty two hundred and thirty pounds deep left chin At 603 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 2: the time, I was five foot eleven, one hundred and 604 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: eighty five pounds. Okay, mister Gonzer. The actual rapist is 605 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 2: six foot six, two hundred and ninety pounds. Wow, So 606 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 2: I was only eight inches off in height and one 607 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: hundred and five pounds in weight. You know. To me, 608 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: that shows more definite proof that the police knew that 609 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: they were framing an innocent man. So I'm happy about 610 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 2: doing that. I'm working on something the last three or 611 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: four years about the qualified immunity issue that has to go. 612 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: This testimony has to go, and I don't care how 613 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: long is that take me. I'll get it done. 614 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: So there's some new development as we're speaking now that 615 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: I know you were so excited about. Tell us quickly 616 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: about that. 617 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: Well. The good news is this deals direct with Gail, 618 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: and I'm so proud of her. She is the most 619 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: remarkable w and I've ever met in my life. We 620 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: have a new prosecutor Mcoon County's name is Pete Licito, 621 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: and you know more about it than I do. 622 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: Pete has started and gotten the budget to start up 623 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 3: what's known as a Conviction Integrity Unit, and the idea 624 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 3: is is once it's up and running, it will review 625 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 3: cases to determine whether or not innocent people are in prison. 626 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: The good thing is the good news is Pete Licito 627 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 2: has named Gail the director of the mcleoon County CiU. 628 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: Gail told me the news about that that could be 629 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: a miracle in itself. 630 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 3: The whole idea is the fair administration of justice, and 631 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: that exists on both ends, both on the prosecutorial and 632 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 3: on the side of innocence and wrongful convictions to right 633 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 3: those wrongs. And Pete has a definite interest in making 634 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 3: sure that the right people are in prison. 635 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: The prosecutor, in my opinion, should be not only the 636 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 2: sort of justice he or she has to be the 637 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: shield of justice. 638 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Also well said, and Ken, if people want to know 639 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: more about you or your story, you have a book 640 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: now right You have a book that's available right now. 641 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: How can our audience find that? 642 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 2: In case anyone would like to read my book, my 643 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: book is called Deliberate Injustice, the run Full Conviction of 644 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,719 Speaker 2: Ken Whinemko. You can go online. The website is Deliberate 645 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: injusticethebook dot com. You can also watch a story about 646 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: my case on Netflix. The series is called The Innocence Files. 647 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 2: My episode is number nine is called the Million Dollar Man. 648 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: We'll have that link in the bio. And now we 649 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: go to the closing of our show, which is always 650 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: my favorite part. We call it closing Arguments, where first 651 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: of all, I think are two incredible guests. Of course, Ken, 652 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: Whyemko You are a hero, and I'm so proud of 653 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: you and all the work you've done, and I'm looking 654 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,959 Speaker 1: forward to continuing to work together to make the system 655 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: fairer and better for everyone. And of course, Gil Palm 656 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: a coff, I know how much this case meant to you, 657 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: so it's so great that you're here to share this 658 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: sort of triumphant retelling of this awful saga and of 659 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: course a good that came from it. So how this 660 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: segment of the show works is very very simple. I'm 661 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: going to turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair, 662 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: leave my headphones on, and probably close my eyes, and 663 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: then closing arguments. Basically, you could just say anything else 664 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: you want to say anything. We haven't covered anything you 665 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: want to share with our audience. GAILI you start with 666 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: all due respect to you, but to save the best 667 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: for last, well. 668 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for inviting me and Ken to 669 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 3: talk on your show. This is a really important subject 670 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: and from the standpoint of a lawyer, it's an exciting 671 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 3: area to be in. It's also in heartbreaking area to 672 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 3: work in. Just to give your listeners some context in 673 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 3: terms of the degree of the problem, the Department of 674 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 3: Justice reports that in twenty nineteen, there were two million, 675 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: eighty six thousand people in prison in the United States. 676 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: The Innocence Project of West Virginia says that between three 677 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 3: and six percent of those in prison are wrongfully convicted. 678 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 3: Three percent is sixty two thousand, five hundred and eighty 679 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 3: people and six percent are one hundred and twenty five thousand, 680 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty people at any given time. And 681 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 3: the truth is, I don't think anybody really knows the 682 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 3: real numbers. These are extrapolations of these different programs. The 683 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 3: National Registry of Exoneration and keeps tracks of all the 684 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 3: exonerations in the United States reports that since nineteen eighty nine, 685 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 3: there have best two nine hundred and thirty seven ex generations. 686 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 3: Think about that, when at any moment in time, there's 687 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 3: up to one hundred and twenty five thousand people wrongfully 688 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 3: convicted in prison. It's an astounding problem. People think that 689 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 3: those in prison they're guilty, and people that make claims 690 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 3: of innocent are just blowing smoke. It's not true. The 691 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted, in the innocent are truly sitting in prisons. 692 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 3: So I hope that your audience takes away that this 693 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 3: does happen, can happen to you. It can happen to 694 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 3: your neighbor, your son, your father, your daughter, or your mother. 695 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 3: It happens, and it's a tragedy. It's almost an irreparable tragedy. 696 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 3: In Ken's case, he lost almost ten years of his life. 697 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 3: He is out, and he has done an amazing job 698 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 3: over these almost twenty years. He's an extraordinary human, but 699 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 3: he lost a lot too. And so I hope that 700 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 3: your audience takes away the large scope of the problem 701 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 3: and can also contribute locally and nationally in terms of 702 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 3: pressing politicians to create more conviction integrity units, support innocence projects, 703 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 3: support criminal justice reform, and that type of thing. 704 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Gail. She is the epitome of 705 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,919 Speaker 2: what an attorney should be. Jason, thank you for giving 706 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: me the opportunity to tell my story. It's only due 707 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 2: to people like you that AXA to reseuch as myself, 708 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: can't share their stories with the entire country with the 709 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 2: hopes of enlightening people to the truth. Wrongful convictions happen 710 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: every day in this country. They have to stop. They 711 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 2: must stop. I don't consider myself a hero, and I'm 712 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: just a good guy who wants to do the right thing. 713 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: And I don't want anyone to have to go through 714 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: what I or my family had to go through. It's 715 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 2: not fair, it's not right, it's not the way America 716 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: is supposed to be. We can change it. It takes 717 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 2: all of us to change it, each and every one 718 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 2: of us. Again, I want to thank you, Jason Gail. 719 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 2: I love you both. Let's keep up to fight. God 720 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: bless you, God bless everyone, and make God bless America. 721 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd 722 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, 723 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis. With research by Lyla Robinson. 724 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time 725 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 726 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, 727 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 1: and on Twitter. At Wrong Conviction as well as at 728 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: Lava for Good on all three platforms. You can also 729 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: follow me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason 730 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 1: flam Ravel. Conviction is the production of Lava for Good 731 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one