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Speaker 1: Oh Man, Blast from the Past, folks. Tonight's classic episode

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Speaker 1: is it's an interview the dear dear friend of ours,

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Speaker 1: the legendary Scott Benjamin. And we all remember Noah loves Scott.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely and you know it's funny because the story was

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Speaker 2: big in the news, you know, at the time. But

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Speaker 2: it seems like old VW has recovered for the most part,

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Speaker 2: moved past it. At the very least, it did not

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Speaker 2: entirely torpedo the company. But what are we talking about,

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Speaker 2: you might ask, Well, we're talking about some weird devices

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Speaker 2: that were found to have been installed in certain VW

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Speaker 2: cars that made them seem like they were a little

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Speaker 2: cleaner burning than they actually were.

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Speaker 3: And just a minor update to this story, you can

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Speaker 3: find electric charging stations all over the country now that

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Speaker 3: were forced to be placed there by Volkswagen because of

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Speaker 3: what we're going to describe in this episode.

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Speaker 1: So, without well further ado, here is the great Volkswagen

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Speaker 1: cover up with Scott Benjamin. From UFOs to psychic powers

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Speaker 1: and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You

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Speaker 1: can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Welcome to the show. Ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: they call me Ben. We're joined with our long suffering

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Speaker 1: super producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are you, and

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Speaker 1: that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: But Ben, you may be asking where are your trustee

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Speaker 1: co host Matt Frederick and Noel Brown. Without divulging too

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Speaker 1: munch information, I can reveal that they are both on

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Speaker 1: separate secret missions for the time being, but they will

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Speaker 1: return very soon. And I wonder now whether they are

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Speaker 1: traveling by plane, train or automobile, specifically of Oldswagen. You see,

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Speaker 1: today's episode is about not a conspiracy theory, but an

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Speaker 1: ongoing conspiracy, a cover up of a global nature, right,

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Speaker 1: not just one single incident, not one single year, but

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Speaker 1: a cover up spanning multiple industries, multiple countries, and multiple years.

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Speaker 1: And what better way to investigate this conspiracy than to

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Speaker 1: call on some help from our longtime friend and recurring

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Speaker 1: guests on the show, Ladies and Gentlemen, How Stuff Works?

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Speaker 1: Expert for all things automotive, Scott Benjamin.

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Speaker 4: How do you do? Ben?

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Speaker 1: How do you do?

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Speaker 4: It's good to be back in front of the mic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for some background here, everyone, Uh, Scott, you

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Speaker 1: and I for around a decade, a little bit short

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Speaker 1: of a decade, hosted a very different show together called

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Speaker 1: Car Stuff. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: We had a long, long run, and so we've got

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Speaker 4: an incredible archive. And one of those topics that we

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Speaker 4: talked about, of course, during that, you know, is nine

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Speaker 4: plus years, a little bit over nine years. One of

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Speaker 4: those topics was Volkswagen. You know, somewhere along the way.

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Speaker 4: I don't think we ever covered a full history of Volkswagen,

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Speaker 4: but we did cover the Volkswagen Beatle, We covered the

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Speaker 4: Volkswagen one Leader car you know, some of that stuff,

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Speaker 4: and I know Volkswagen came up many times in the podcast.

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Speaker 4: In fact, I own a Volkswagen.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 4: I currently own a Volkswagen, not an affected Volkswagen, which

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Speaker 4: is lucky.

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Speaker 1: Right, yes, very fortunate, and they you know what, I

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Speaker 1: owe you another thanks for coming on this show, because

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Speaker 1: I completely forgot when we said, you know, Scott should

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Speaker 1: be our guest for today's episode, we completely forgot that

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Speaker 1: you do, in fact drive a Volkswagen. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well again, thankfully not one of the one of the

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Speaker 4: ones that had to be recalled. But this is an

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Speaker 4: incredible story, one that unfolded in front of the media,

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Speaker 4: in front of the world. Really, and there's no doubt

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Speaker 4: about it. I mean there was a cover up, we'll

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Speaker 4: talk about that for sure, and it did span many,

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Speaker 4: many years, and there was there was inside knowledge of

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Speaker 4: this early on. You know, it was known to the

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Speaker 4: company before it was released to the public. I mean

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Speaker 4: they were definitely trying to hide.

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Speaker 1: Something, absolutely, And so for anyone listening to the show

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Speaker 1: who is not specifically a gear head or doesn't consider

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Speaker 1: themselves a car person, I can't guarantee that you were

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Speaker 1: going to find some very strange and fascinating things. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: and the story begins, I would say, the story really

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Speaker 1: begins in the late nineteen thirties, is that correct?

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Speaker 4: And oh, you're talking about the beginning of Volkswagen. Yeah, okay, yeah, sure, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 4: we could talk about the beginning of Volkswagen. We'll just

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Speaker 4: kind of quickly go over this. But one of the

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Speaker 4: most fascinating things if you look up Volkswagen, and I

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Speaker 4: bet a lot of people don't quite understand this. They

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Speaker 4: might know the tie in between Adolf Hitler and want

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Speaker 4: to build what they call the people's car, that would

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Speaker 4: be the Volkswagen Bill the bug. Yeah, yeah, He's actually

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Speaker 4: credited as being one of the founders of Volkswagen, if

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Speaker 4: you can believe that. I mean the German Labor Front

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Speaker 4: who was under the control of Adolf Hitler at the time.

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Speaker 4: So you'll find that Adolf Hitler is listed as one

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Speaker 4: of the founders of Volkswagen. Interesting fact, I thought. But

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Speaker 4: I mean it starts in what nineteen thirty seven, I believe,

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Speaker 4: is when Volkswagen became an official.

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Speaker 1: Mark, right yeah, headquartered in Wolfsburg, Germany, and that's the

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Speaker 1: name of Volkswagen. Wirk was it just meant the people's

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Speaker 1: car company, right sure?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then you know, the idea was

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Speaker 4: to create something that the people could afford, the people

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Speaker 4: could drive, that people could you know, easily get their

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Speaker 4: hands on. But it was also strictly controlled by the government.

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Speaker 4: As you can imagine. It was something that you know,

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Speaker 4: the direction was coming down from, you know, people that

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Speaker 4: really didn't have how do I want to put this

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Speaker 4: ben It wasn't necessarily designed in a pure creative environment.

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Speaker 4: It was somebody who's dictating what had to happen in

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Speaker 4: that car, like this is the way we want it,

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Speaker 4: this is the way it has to be.

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Speaker 1: Right. They were building to a list of constraints exactly right. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And the funny thing is like with the Volkswagen and

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Speaker 4: even the start.

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Speaker 1: Of the company.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if you notice the timing, we're talking about

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Speaker 4: nineteen thirty seven, this is the onset of World War two,

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Speaker 4: and so there was going to be a delay in

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Speaker 4: production until after that. So very few Volkswagen beatles, even

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Speaker 4: though they were designed ahead of time, you know, ahead

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Speaker 4: of World War Two, they were not really widely delivered

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Speaker 4: until after World War Two because there's the gap in

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Speaker 4: production because they shifted over to become a war machine.

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Speaker 1: Which happened with multiple manufacturers, not just on the axis side,

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Speaker 1: but on the ally side.

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Speaker 4: Exactly both sides of the ocean. Yeah, that was happening everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Is that?

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Speaker 4: You know, car production pretty much halted during World War two?

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Speaker 1: And shameless plug. We have a pretty interesting series of

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Speaker 1: episodes about that on Car stuffshow dot com available for free,

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Speaker 1: huge archive. Actually we have a lot of stuff on that.

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Speaker 1: So let's move a little bit further ahead. You know,

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Speaker 1: you look around at Volkswagens today and you see how

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Speaker 1: popular they are. Right driving any major metropolitan area and

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Speaker 1: you're bound to see several of different years, different different models,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Sure, but you have to ask yourself, all right,

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Speaker 1: this is this is a Nazi car, right, how did

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Speaker 1: this not no offense? Got? How did this Nazi car

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Speaker 1: become so popular here in the United States? Because initially

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Speaker 1: sales were lower for two fronts, or for two reasons rather.

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Speaker 1: One was the association with Germany. Yeah, and the second

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Speaker 1: was that the car was seen, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say seen like a twerp, but it was smaller and

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Speaker 1: it had a differing different form, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: more rounded.

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Speaker 4: Sure, people used to yeah, rear engine. You know, I

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Speaker 4: had a couple of different things going against it. I

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Speaker 4: guess as far as you know, it's it's sale in

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Speaker 4: America because you know, we at the time, we were

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Speaker 4: in love with the giant vehicles. You know, they had

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Speaker 4: great big the lead sleds you know the time, you know,

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Speaker 4: the huge steel vehicles that were enormous. They were you know,

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Speaker 4: twenty feet long, had giant vight engines. It was just

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Speaker 4: a different thing all together, really, and and it was

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Speaker 4: tough to convince people until about well you know what,

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Speaker 4: actually again we have another podcast about this, but you know,

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Speaker 4: the the officers that came back from World War Two.

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Speaker 4: It had kind of fallen in love with the British

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Speaker 4: sports cars and you know that the small vehicle, you know,

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Speaker 4: maybe they only sat two people, sometimes four, but you

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Speaker 4: know it's a very small convertible vehicle, sporty, and that

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Speaker 4: trend started to take off and really become popular in

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Speaker 4: the sixties, I guess is when you know, they were

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Speaker 4: doing a little bit of both. They were making some

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Speaker 4: big cars, they were making some small cars, kind of

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Speaker 4: experimenting with you know, where we're going to import cars

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Speaker 4: from because these are popular, and you know, the Volkswagen

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Speaker 4: Bile kind of fits snuggling in there. But it was

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Speaker 4: until probably what the early or late nineteen sixties, early

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventies, Yeah, that the Beatle really really took off

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Speaker 4: here in the.

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Speaker 1: United States and shot off like a rocket.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the reason was because of the oil embargo.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that in the

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Speaker 1: geopolitical and the domestic circumstance. Right, this is at a

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Speaker 1: time where in gas prices are skyrocketing for the average person, right,

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Speaker 1: and a big land yacht or what you would call

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Speaker 1: lead sled engine is you know, it's gonna be a

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Speaker 1: notoriously thirsty beast. Right, it's not quite like an Abrams tank.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking gallons per mile, but you're you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be paying a lot in fuel. Even when prices are normal.

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Speaker 4: It was pretty close to gallons per mile.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they were not eco friendly. No, that wasn't

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Speaker 1: even a term people would apply at the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but a small, aller car with a smaller engine like

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Speaker 1: the Bug is going to be suddenly much more attractive.

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Speaker 1: And we've seen a similar thing happen when gas prices

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Speaker 1: spiked the several years back and a bunch of people

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Speaker 1: realized they didn't like their H twos that much? Remember that, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 4: Scummers, Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, So this is all

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Speaker 4: happening in the early nineteen seventies. I'll say I think

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Speaker 4: it was nineteen seventy three was really the first crunch

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Speaker 4: for us here, and then later in nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 4: the same thing happened again. So throughout the seventies, really

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Speaker 4: there was a push to create smaller, more fishing vehicles,

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Speaker 4: and Volkswagen had a vehicle that was ready made for this,

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Speaker 4: you know, the imported the vehicle and it was you know,

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Speaker 4: wildly popular. In fact, it had a long, long run,

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Speaker 4: didn't it. I mean it was it second after I

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Speaker 4: can't remember was it first or second? I think it

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Speaker 4: was after the Model T.

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Speaker 1: I think I think it might be second. Let's see,

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Speaker 1: because in nineteen seventy two they had already surpassed fifteen

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Speaker 1: million vehicles. Wait, so that would make them first. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, that would make them first.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because they were produced well into the nineteen I

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Speaker 4: want to say, nineteen nineties, even in Mexico I.

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Speaker 1: Think, and the Model T was what nineteen o eight

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Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty seven, Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yep. So

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Speaker 1: this this is an enormously popular vehicle. It recovers from

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Speaker 1: a stigma associated with one of its original founders, Adolf Hitler. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's still the most baffling thing.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, let's move on past that though, because sure,

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Speaker 4: this isn't just we're talking about a group of manufacturers

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Speaker 4: of Marx. Really now at this point it's not just Volkswagen.

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Speaker 4: So we're talking about Audi, Portia, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti. These

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Speaker 4: are all owned under the parent company of Volkswagen. So

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Speaker 4: in addition to that, there are other automobiles that we

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Speaker 4: don't necessarily see here in the United States. There's in Spain,

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Speaker 4: there's the Seat brand, which makes automobiles and auto parts.

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Speaker 4: There's Scania, which is in Sweden that makes commercial trucks.

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Speaker 4: There is the Man company m An, which is in

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Speaker 4: Germany and they also make commercial trucks and engines. And

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Speaker 4: then there's Skota, which is from the Czech Republic and

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Speaker 4: they make automobiles as well. So Volkswagen is this enormous

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Speaker 4: worldwide company that produces millions of cars a year. We

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Speaker 4: might not see as many here in the United States

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Speaker 4: as they do elsewhere in the world. You know, there's

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Speaker 4: still big numbers. They're a popular company here in the

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Speaker 4: United States. I want to say they're like the number

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Speaker 4: nine seller of vehicles right right now. I think I

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Speaker 4: looked up the number yesterday, and I believe they're number

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Speaker 4: nine in the United States, and that's a you know,

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Speaker 4: a leap ahead of where they were, let's say twenty

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Speaker 4: years ago. Twenty years ago, they were selling you know,

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Speaker 4: just it's probably tens of thousands still, but now they're

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Speaker 4: selling hundreds of thousands of vehicles in the United States,

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Speaker 4: if not, you know, over a million at this point.

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Speaker 4: So and again that encompasses all their brands. And now

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Speaker 4: I know some of the smaller, you know, I should

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Speaker 4: say smaller, but some of the more boutique type cars,

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Speaker 4: I guess you know, the Lamborghinis, the bent Layzer got

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Speaker 4: they sell less. Of course, they're their primary if you

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Speaker 4: want to call it bread and butter, I guess would

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Speaker 4: be the Volkswagen brand, Audi brand, and even I'll say

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Speaker 4: even Portia because they saw a lot of cars.

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Speaker 1: Here, that's true. Yeah, I would say that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And strictly speaking in the US.

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Speaker 1: And we're establishing here that this is not a I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know what we call it. This

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Speaker 1: is not a cottage industry. This is not like a

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Speaker 1: This is not a the rarefied air of high performance

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Speaker 1: exotic cars like this is not McLaren doing something of

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Speaker 1: this nature. So we have this, we have this massive

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Speaker 1: car manufacturer, right. Yeah, we're talking millions of cars, We're

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Speaker 1: talking billions of dollars. And then of course we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the law. Right because just the same way that

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Speaker 1: the original VW Beetle was built, according to a set

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Speaker 1: of constraints, all vehicles in developed countries must conform to

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Speaker 1: certain sets of standards. And this includes everything from you know,

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Speaker 1: the presence of air bags, to break standards like when

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Speaker 1: you apply a break to things like collapsible joints, you know,

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Speaker 1: used in place of an accident. One of the big

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Speaker 1: complaints you hear from a lot of a high performance

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Speaker 1: car enthusiast is that these safety regulations primarily add weight

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Speaker 1: in their opinion, Oh.

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Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, absolutely, it's to a lot of people, it's

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Speaker 4: a lot of nonsense. Sure, it to other people, it's

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Speaker 4: a necessity. And you have to have these things in

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Speaker 4: order to produce and sell a vehicle in the United

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Speaker 4: States or in the European Union, or in the China market,

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Speaker 4: or you know, wherever wherever you're talking about. You have

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Speaker 4: a certain market that you have to target for certain things,

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Speaker 4: you know, and emissions is one of those things. They

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Speaker 4: have cars that are US emissions comply and they have

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Speaker 4: cars that are European Emissions Client compliant rather, and those

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Speaker 4: are two separate things there. It's different systems. And I'll

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Speaker 4: tell you I found this out as kind of fascinated

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Speaker 4: by this when I read this, and I didn't quite

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Speaker 4: understand this, but someone had described it in this way.

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Speaker 4: Is that I guess what we're talking about is different

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Speaker 4: types of exhaust gases that come out of the tailpipe

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Speaker 4: really and and what comes out of there is it's

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Speaker 4: mandated by the government agencies that are that are in

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Speaker 4: charge here. So in the United States, it's the e

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Speaker 4: p A that's in charge of of making sure that

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Speaker 4: you know, the vehicles are compliant to whether it's you know,

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Speaker 4: the country, the state, or even the county or the

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Speaker 4: city that we're in, because it does vary state by

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Speaker 4: state in that way. Sometimes it's just the county that

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Speaker 4: you're in because you're in Georgia, just because we're in

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Speaker 4: the county that Atlanta is in, you know, the main city,

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Speaker 4: the capital city we are. We are required to get

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Speaker 4: a missions tested every every single year, every uh, you know,

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Speaker 4: once a year around your birthday you have the missions

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Speaker 4: test and then it's when you get your tag renewal

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Speaker 4: and all that. But if you're outside of that area,

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Speaker 4: they don't care. There's no emissions testing. It's different from it,

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Speaker 4: you know, by state by state. Some states the entire

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Speaker 4: state is it's necessary. Other states it's just certain areas

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Speaker 4: like what we have here in Georgia, and then some

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Speaker 4: of them have you know, year exclusions, like you know,

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Speaker 4: if your car is older than a certain age, it

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Speaker 4: doesn't have to be tested, and some of them, you know,

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Speaker 4: the first four years you don't have to have your

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Speaker 4: car testing because it's a brand new car. Which all

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Speaker 4: this seems very arbitrary, I understand, but it's but these

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Speaker 4: are rules that are refined state by state, so that

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Speaker 4: you know, there's one overlaying rule from the government that says,

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Speaker 4: you know, in order to buy or to import and

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Speaker 4: sell cars here in the United States, you have to

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Speaker 4: meet these mandates. And the same thing with the European Union,

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Speaker 4: except it's a set of directives that come down from

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Speaker 4: you know, from their leadership.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a little more centralized.

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Speaker 4: Exactly right, Yeah, so they have a more standardized system

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Speaker 4: for all of the European Union.

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Speaker 1: Really, and of course, like any large manufacturer, Volkswagen has

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Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of people whose sole job in the

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Speaker 1: organization is to make sure that these cars meet these standards.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and just so I'm clear on this, I mean,

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Speaker 4: the US and the European Union have different air pollution standards.

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Speaker 4: So just take for example, the US standards are kind

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Speaker 4: of strict on nitrogen oxides, which is you'll see it

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Speaker 4: abbreviated as NLX, and then particulate matter. Well, the European

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Speaker 4: standards are more strict on carbon dioxide which is CO

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Speaker 4: two and carbon monoxide. So in other words, European regulators

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Speaker 4: are focused on like fuel efficiency and they try to

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Speaker 4: limit the dependency on crude oil from Russia and the

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Speaker 4: Middle East well and on greenhouse gas emissions. Of course,

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Speaker 4: you know, of course climate change plays into all this.

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Speaker 4: But on the other hand, American regulators are more focused

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Speaker 4: on smog and the health impacts of the air pollution,

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Speaker 4: so they have different standards based on what they're trying

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Speaker 4: to try to achieve, you know, for their air quality.

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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, that makes sense. That's not a crazy

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Speaker 1: story that all seems on the up and up. So

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Speaker 1: what happens when things start to go wrong. We'll answer

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Speaker 1: this after a word from our sponsor. Welcome back. Before

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Speaker 1: the break, Scott, you and I explained some of the

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Speaker 1: history of Volkswagen, the size of the organization, a couple numbers,

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Speaker 1: and we also looked at their interaction with various governments.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to lean too hard on the on

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Speaker 1: the Nazi history. It's it's just a real thing, and

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Speaker 1: you can fall down that rabbit hole if you wish, folks, sir,

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Speaker 1: but you know, we we've we've painted the scene, we've

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Speaker 1: provided the backdrop. Now I would I now, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to ask you about the timeline that applies here. When

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Speaker 1: do things start going wrong with Volkswagen?

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Speaker 4: Okay, so we didn't hear about this until right around

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Speaker 4: twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, September twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 4: This is a couple of years ago, maybe almost three

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Speaker 4: years ago at this point, and you know, people would

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Speaker 4: probably be surprised to learn that this actually began, if

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Speaker 4: you really want to get down to the you know,

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Speaker 4: the root cause of this whole thing, it started around

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine, which is crazy. Yeah, So what happens,

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Speaker 4: all right, So in nineteen ninety nine, they're brand new

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Speaker 4: US rules. Now they call them Tier two rules, which

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Speaker 4: I think they have updated to Tier three at this point.

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Speaker 4: But we're talking about the the limits decreasing on what's allowed,

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Speaker 4: you know, for exhaust gas emissions. So we're talking about

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Speaker 4: nitrogen oxides, things like you know, nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide,

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Speaker 4: and they're usually produced by the combustion of fuel. Right,

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Speaker 4: So the limits were decreasing from I believe it's one

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Speaker 4: gram per million to something like point zero seven gram

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Speaker 4: per million.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, so it's a significant reduction.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's reducing and and because of that, there

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Speaker 4: has to be kind of a phasing period when they allow,

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Speaker 4: you know, manufacturer to adjust to this to you know,

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Speaker 4: try to make your cars run a little bit more efficient,

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Speaker 4: run a little bit more lean, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: The problem with that is, and as we'll find out,

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Speaker 4: is that you want to kind of have a balance

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Speaker 4: between performance, of course, because people want performance in their car.

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Speaker 4: They don't want to be a just an absolute dog

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Speaker 4: on the road, of course, and you don't want to

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Speaker 4: have a vehicle that is just spewing emissions, you know,

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Speaker 4: because it takes more fuel probably in most cases to

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Speaker 4: go faster. Right, You're trying to get the most efficiency

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Speaker 4: out of that fuel, and sometimes that requires burning more fuel.

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Speaker 4: In fact, all the time that is burning our fuel, right,

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Speaker 4: But you're trying to do that in a way that

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Speaker 4: you know, you can filter, you can you know, run

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Speaker 4: it as lean as possible while still maintaining this balance

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Speaker 4: between performance and fuel economy. Okay, so that's the that's

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Speaker 4: the idea.

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Speaker 1: Oh we should also point out those those nitrogen oxides

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Speaker 1: that we're mentioning. Think of those as some of the

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Speaker 1: key ingredients in air pollution. So these are the gases

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Speaker 1: that are instrumental in the formation of stuff like acid

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Speaker 1: rain or small.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'll tell you that this is difficult to

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Speaker 4: do because they give you know, they give the manufacturers

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Speaker 4: ten years in order to conform to this. So they've

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Speaker 4: got ten years from nineteen ninety nine. So let's say

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Speaker 4: two thousand and nine is when these new standards are

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Speaker 4: supposed to take place, right, they're gonna phase them in,

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Speaker 4: So throughout the two thousands, you know, let's say two

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Speaker 4: thousand and four through about two thousand and nine, there's

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Speaker 4: this diesel emissions change as well. It's not just gasoline,

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Speaker 4: it's diesel as well. So in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 4: Volkswagen officially suspended the sales of the current diesel lines

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Speaker 4: and they were waiting for new technology standards to come through. Right,

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Speaker 4: They're developing new product, is what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Really. They also this is also around the time that

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Speaker 1: the European Union banned something that was pretty common in

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Speaker 1: this diesel testing thing, and that was something called a

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Speaker 1: defeat device.

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Speaker 4: Ah, yes, okay, Now the defeat device will come up later,

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Speaker 4: I'm sure, but the defeat device is nothing that is

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Speaker 4: exclusive to Volkswagon. I think I state that up front.

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Speaker 4: That might also be kind of a shocker to people

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Speaker 4: is that these defeat devices are known to exist for

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Speaker 4: other companies. In fact, I've seen I think it's Reno, Suzuki,

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Speaker 4: there were other companies that were mentioned that I'll be

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Speaker 4: able to find it here in just a second of

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Speaker 4: my notes. But the defeat devices really are there to

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Speaker 4: save the car, save the engine, really, right, that's the

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Speaker 4: that's the primary purpose of them. It's so that if

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Speaker 4: you know, the the car itself kind of figures out

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Speaker 4: that something's not going right. You know that it's not

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Speaker 4: it's not operating in the right temperature range, it's not

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Speaker 4: you know, there's something a load on the vehicle that

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Speaker 4: shouldn't be there. It's not going to destroy itself. It's

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Speaker 4: it's going to in some way save itself. It's gonna

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Speaker 4: it's going to try to self preserve.

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Speaker 1: I guess we try to at least mitigate the damage.

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Speaker 4: And what we're talking about is is a software situation.

432
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 4: It's not. It's not a mechanical thing. It's an electronic thing.

433
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 4: It's going to either increase decrease fuel is necessary. It's

434
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 4: going to you know, it's going to create a condition.

435
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 4: I guess that it's more favorable to the engine.

436
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 1: And in two thousand and seven, the European Union finally

437
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: introduced a rule for car makers that said you gotta

438
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,719
Speaker 1: stop used in this defeat device loophole because what they

439
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: were doing with the software, which, as you said, Scott,

440
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 1: was the design to preserve an engine, what they were

441
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: doing instead was using it to cheat on these tests.

442
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: It would manipulate emissions and therefore performance right or performance

443
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: and therefore emissions depending on whether the car was on

444
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: the what they would called the test stand where you

445
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: test the performance and see if it means mission standards

446
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: versus driving actually driving on the road. Sure, so you know,

447
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: the fancy insider automotive term for this, and I don't

448
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: want to get to into jargon, is cheating.

449
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's exactly what was going on. I mean. And

450
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 4: the other company that was listed I mentioned, I think

451
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 4: Renault and Suzuki, but Hyundai also was known to have

452
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 4: defeat devices that they've used in the past, and again

453
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 4: that's to prevent engine damage at certain temperatures. So it

454
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 4: makes sense that you know, they would have something in

455
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 4: place like that. But again, when you use that, when

456
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 4: you switch that on, that's that's the deceptive part here.

457
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 4: So let's go back to two thousand and seven. So again,

458
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 4: defeat devices not exclusive to Volkswagen. A lot of places

459
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 4: are using them, A lot of people are using them.

460
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 4: Manufacturers I mean by people of course, right, not people.

461
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 4: So it's nothing mechanical really, just all electronic. So back

462
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: in two thousand and seven, I guess they were. There

463
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 4: was talk of Volkswagen using this to kind of skew

464
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 4: the numbers a little bit, you know. And BOSH, I

465
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 4: guess who is an engineering and electronics company in Stutgart, Germany.

466
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 4: A lot of people have heard of BOSH. I'm sure

467
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 4: they're a supplier of automotive components. They allegedly warned Volkswagen

468
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: not to use their software, Blash software illegally, so you know,

469
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 4: they had they knew they had control, they could manipulate

470
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 4: the software how they wanted, but they said in two

471
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 4: thousand and seven, please don't you know do that in

472
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 4: order to conform to these new standards. There's a better

473
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 4: way around this, you know, do it in a different manner.

474
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 4: So in two thousand and eight, just a year later,

475
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 4: Volksweigen announces that it has clean diesel cars. Now, I

476
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 4: think we've probably all heard clean diesel, and this is

477
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 4: right around when a lot of people really change their

478
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 4: mind about diesel in the United States. It wasn't something

479
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 4: that was known as a as a dirty vehicle, polluting vehicle,

480
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 4: right because prior to then, you know, when you think

481
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 4: of diesel cars, you think of cars that you know, trucks,

482
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 4: cars that were terribly smoky and they just smell bad

483
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 4: all the time, and they were just everything about them

484
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 4: was different. I mean, they operate differently internally, they're tougher

485
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 4: to start.

486
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: And they're tough, they're tougher to accelerate. Yeah, it's just

487
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: not it.

488
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 4: Wasn't something that was part of American culture. I guess,

489
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 4: if you want to put it that way. There's certain

490
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: there's certain uses for diesel vehicles, but it was primarily commercial, right.

491
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 4: It was primarily people that you know, long long haul

492
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 4: truckers and you know, people that were using diesel equipment

493
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 4: around I don't know, tree nurseries or something like that.

494
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 4: You know, they were using an equipment not necessarily, and

495
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 4: they're on the road cars. Even though they were out there,

496
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 4: they were kind of few and far between at that point.

497
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 4: But now in two thousand and eight, Volkswagons got this

498
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 4: clean diesel and I remember that, you know, Mercedes came

499
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 4: out with clean diesel, and a lot of places like

500
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 4: to claim that they have clean diesel cars. And of

501
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 4: course you're not gonna have any problem with emissions, right, no,

502
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 4: none at all, and you're gonna have all the performance

503
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 4: that you want.

504
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: Things are going to be even better than you could imagine.

505
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: Going to drive, just like a gasoline powered car. Absolutely

506
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 4: no problems at all, it could.

507
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: All right.

508
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 4: So the problem here is that around two thousand and eight,

509
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 4: cars with what we'll call the test rigging software were

510
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 4: starting to be sold.

511
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: In the United Kingdom.

512
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 4: And they know that, they know that. In two thousand

513
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 4: and eight they were still using this defeat device in

514
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 4: order to kind of get around the emissions control that

515
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 4: were happening over in the Uuropean Union. And then in

516
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 4: two thousand and nine, this is when the Volkswagen TDI

517
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 4: cars officially went on sale in the United States. Now

518
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 4: in Europe, some of the models are also being described

519
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 4: as euro Emissions Class five vehicles, and you know, they

520
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 4: have all these classes that they like to say that

521
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 4: we're compliant to, you know, and that will change throughout

522
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 4: the years. I don't know if we want to keep

523
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 4: up with that in this discussion really, because I think

524
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 4: it just kind of gets lost in the weeds somewhere.

525
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 4: But around two thousand and nine is when these TDI cars,

526
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 4: you know, the cars that all they all had a

527
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 4: little badge TDI. Those are the ones that are considered

528
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 4: to be clean diesel cars were sold here in the

529
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 4: United States. And then I guess, you know, from around

530
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 4: what I guess, from two thousand and nine right when

531
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 4: they were introduced until about twenty fifteen, and that's the

532
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 4: key date. Right two twenty fifteen, it seemed like there

533
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 4: was really a big movement. A lot of people really

534
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 4: like their diesel cars. They didn't have a problem finding

535
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 4: the gast gas stations because you know, more stations were

536
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 4: carrying it. Now because there's this influx of cars that

537
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 4: need to require diesel fuel, you can't filled up with

538
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,239
Speaker 4: gasoline of course. So there's you know, it's just an

539
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 4: easier vehicle to be able to fuel than was. You know,

540
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: like back when you had to go to a truck

541
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 4: stop somewhere on the highway in order to get fuel.

542
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: Now you could go to practically any gas station and

543
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 4: fuel up and you were getting the performance that you

544
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 4: wanted out of it. It was just like your gasoline

545
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 4: powered car. They're brand new. You know, there was something

546
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 4: that at the time was you know, economical, I guess sure,

547
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: you know, there were fuel efficient, you had it all really.

548
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: Until it's a long pause. Yeah, yeah, it's a little

549
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: dramatic there, until people started comparing notes. Yeah, and we'll

550
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: get to that after a word from our sponsor. Here's

551
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. So, as we said at the

552
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: beginning of the show, twenty to fifteen is sort of

553
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: a harbinger of things to come, right, Yeah, So here's

554
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: what's happening during this time in the years leading up

555
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: to this moment. As we said earlier, different different states,

556
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: different countries, different counties within states, all have differing standards,

557
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: right yeah, sure, and largely a lot of the testing

558
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: is going to be the same. It's just where they

559
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: set the bar for passing or failing. Yeah, and what

560
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: they're testing for, right. Yeah. So here in the United States,

561
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: one of the one of the states with more stringent

562
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: standards would be California. The automotive world, California is very

563
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: well known for having emission standards and pollution standards that

564
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: are significantly higher than in other states.

565
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: They have a group called CARB, which is the California

566
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 4: Air Resource Board. And how many times in the past

567
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 4: you just remember back a couple decades, if you will,

568
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 4: sure think about like watching cars being given away on

569
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 4: the prices, right, or you know one of the one

570
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: of the game shows. How many times did you see

571
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 4: them say when they're given away a car, they would

572
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 4: say that it's CARB certified or it has California missions.

573
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: Right.

574
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 4: California missions was a thing, and I don't know, I

575
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 4: think it kind of still is, but that includes more

576
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 4: states at this point. Now there are other states that

577
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 4: have matched what California has done. So at the time

578
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 4: it was just them, but they had much stricter restrictions

579
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 4: on is that with stricter restrictions, I guess, yeah, that's fine.

580
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,239
Speaker 4: I guess they They were very specific in saying that,

581
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's definitely got California missions. It's California

582
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 4: Air Resource Board authenticated. You know that this is one

583
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: that that complies to that absolutely.

584
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: And at the time, that meant that you could drive

585
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: this car anywhere.

586
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure you could.

587
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: If you could drive it through California, you know what

588
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: I mean, You're good to go anywhere.

589
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 4: You could take a car out of there. But if

590
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 4: you were to move into California with another vehicle, I

591
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 4: have to have it tested. You would likely have to

592
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 4: add a bunch of hardware in order to make your car,

593
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 4: you know, as clean as the cars that were meant

594
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 4: to be sold in California.

595
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and at some points during that time,

596
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: people moving to California would just sell their car.

597
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it happened. And you know, now there are

598
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 4: many other states that have kind of followed suit with

599
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 4: California in their same strict well again strict restrictions on

600
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 4: exhaust gases.

601
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: So in twenty fourteen, the year before the s hits

602
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 1: the f if we're going to keep it as a

603
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: family show, the year before the Badgers pop out of

604
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: the bag carb, the California Air Resource Board is studying

605
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: discrepancies that they've found between European and US models of vehicles. Right,

606
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: and they take three different sources for fifteen vehicles and

607
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: they find something. They find something not quite rotten in

608
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: the state of Denmark yet, but you know, they find

609
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: something smell in a little ripe because several scientists I

610
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: believe in West Virginia said, hey, there's something up with

611
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: the diesel cars. Yeah, because we had three that we

612
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: tested and what they're showing us on the road is

613
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: vastly different. They're much much dirtier than the test would indicate,

614
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: more than the auto manufacturers it promised.

615
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 4: So what's really unusual about this is that you could

616
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 4: take those same three vehicles that you're talking about, you know,

617
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 4: just brandom vehicles that they selected, and put them into

618
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 4: a test bay and measure the emissions and everything will

619
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 4: turn out fine. They will certify as you know, no

620
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 4: problem at all, it's an emissions compliant. You take that same

621
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 4: vehicle and you attach mobile technology to it. I guess

622
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 4: you know something that is that can test the vehicle

623
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,719
Speaker 4: while it's on the road, while it's driving, And they

624
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 4: were finding that these cars were emitting sometimes forty times

625
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 4: the amount of permitted levels of nitrogenoxides forty times forty

626
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 4: times the amount. So what is happening during these yur

627
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 4: in these testing procedures.

628
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: Is it an accident? Is it somehow just these individual cars? Right?

629
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: Did something fail on these cars? That's the first question.

630
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: Is there a defect?

631
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 4: Yeah? Sure, And you might be scratching your head like

632
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 4: why would they go to West Virginia to check this out?

633
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 4: They went to West Virginia University where they have something

634
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 4: called the Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions. So

635
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 4: they have something that's called confusingly enough, CAFE, which is

636
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 4: with ANX with an extra E, not Cafe standards, but

637
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 4: with an extra E.

638
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: Cafe and CAFE Standards, just by way of reference, are

639
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: a set of regulations that all that cars have to

640
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: obey in the United States.

641
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, this goes back to what we were talking about

642
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety nine, when they've got ten years to

643
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 4: comply to this, you know, an overall fuel economy for

644
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 4: your fleet of vehicles. More on that on car stuff.

645
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: If you want to go to it must pluck. But

646
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 4: so the idea was they were actually trying to do

647
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 4: something nice here. I guess they were trying to figure out,

648
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 4: you know, some of the benefits I guess of US

649
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 4: diesel technology and hoping to have Europe kind of follow

650
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: along with that and see if they could achieve the

651
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 4: same low levels of nitrogenoxides for emissions, and instead they

652
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 4: found something different. They found these discrepancies I guess between

653
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 4: you know, the on road emissions versus what was being

654
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 4: published as you know, the fuel standards or the emission

655
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 4: standards I guess for diesel enginds here in the United States.

656
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 4: Just the numbers weren't matching up for the West Virginia

657
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 4: University researchers.

658
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: In any shape, fashion or form.

659
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no, exactly right. So they did

660
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 4: publish this. They published their findings. And the thing is

661
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 4: the publication, you know, they didn't want to say anything

662
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 4: to Volkswagen directly, of course, because you don't you know,

663
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 4: talk about that kind of thing.

664
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: I guess, you.

665
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 4: Don't accuse them of what they thought was happening even

666
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 4: this early on, you know, in twenty fourteen.

667
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: Could still all be a mistake.

668
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 4: So they did publish these publicly, you know, they said

669
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 4: that you know, here's here's you know, what we found.

670
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 4: And this got the attention of the EPA here in

671
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 4: the United States and unwanted attention.

672
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: Unwanted attention. Yes, the United States Environmental Protection Agency. In

673
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: September twenty fifteen, they issue a notice a violation of

674
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: what's called the Clean Air Act to Volkswagen, to the

675
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: Volkswagen Group, and they're the ones who levy the first accusation.

676
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: They say, Volkswagen, you have intentionally programmed diesel engines to

677
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: cheat on these tests, to activate emission controls during lab tests,

678
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: that which affects the output of the oxides that Scott

679
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: you and I mentioned earlier to meet these testing standards.

680
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 1: Just while they're in the bay.

681
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 4: They're giving them a chance, though, they're saying, here's what

682
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 4: we found. What's your explanation for why it's happening, you know,

683
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 4: tell us what happened.

684
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: Is it a mistake?

685
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 4: Is this Is this a genuine mistake, because this is

686
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 4: not the you know, the real world situation that we're

687
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 4: finding with your vehicles. You know, in a test situation,

688
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 4: it's one thing. In the real world, it's something completely different.

689
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 4: Tell us what's happening here, you know, we want to

690
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 4: talk to the engineers that helped work on this. Oh boy, yeah,

691
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 4: that's that's someone you don't want to have knocking on

692
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 4: your doors the EPA when you are in charge of,

693
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 4: you know, the diesel engine program. And we'll talk about

694
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 4: some of the people that were involved in this later.

695
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a few people that wind up in

696
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 4: the fall out of this whole thing. But so the

697
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 4: timing of this is is interesting because you would think

698
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 4: that Volkswagen, now they denied this right up to the

699
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 4: very end. I mean, they really did put it off,

700
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 4: and you would think they would just say, hey, you caught.

701
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: Us, you know, like I mean, but I don't know, Scott,

702
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: it's my bad situation.

703
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 4: I don't you know what I don't know. I mean,

704
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 4: which one would have been better? Because here's what happened.

705
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 4: They the EPA gave them a chance. They said, we're

706
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 4: telling you right now that these cars are not CARB,

707
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 4: not EPA certified. They're not satisfying our standards, So why

708
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 4: don't you tell us what you're going to do to

709
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 4: change this?

710
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: So for a year, right, for a year they say,

711
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,959
Speaker 1: technical glitches, technical difficulties, we're working on it. Right. And

712
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: the CEO at the time was fellow named Martin Wintercorn,

713
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 1: and they kept this line up they doubled down, they

714
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: committed to the bit as you would say in comedy,

715
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: and they did a They did their best impression of

716
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: a company that wasn't committing crimes. Yeah.

717
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 4: So in September again we're still in September of twenty fifteen,

718
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 4: the EPA threatened to not certify any of the twenty

719
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 4: sixteen diesel engines that Volkswagen was going to sell. So

720
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 4: they said, you know, what are you gonna do. I mean,

721
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 4: we're not going to We're not going to allow you

722
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 4: to sell these cars in the United States. You're going

723
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 4: to lose out on hundreds of thousands of sales. Volkswagen

724
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 4: finally responds to the EPA, not to the public, but

725
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 4: to the EPA by that the software was programmed to

726
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 4: cheat testing. Now, this is September third of twenty fifteen.

727
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 4: By September eighteenth, now, so that's fifteen days later. So

728
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 4: they had more than two weeks for Volkswagen to come

729
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 4: out with a statement, you know, whatever they wanted to

730
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 4: say and to kind of you know, gloss this thing over.

731
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: They didn't do it.

732
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 4: The EPA actually comes out there's a public service announcement

733
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 4: from the EPA that orders the recall of all two

734
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 4: thousand and nine through twenty fifteen cars that are equipped

735
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 4: with this this TDI engine here in the United States.

736
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 4: And it wasn't until the twentieth of September, so two

737
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 4: days after the EPA announces this, that Volkswagen finally admits

738
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 4: this deception and issues a public apology. So they were

739
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 4: given and practically a month we're talking about practically a

740
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 4: month where Volkswagen could have come out on the early

741
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 4: side of this. I think they were kind of calling

742
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 4: the EPA's bluff. I think almost like, you know, are

743
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 4: they going to say anything? Are they not going to

744
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 4: do it. I'm sure that they were telling them that

745
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 4: they were going to.

746
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: Right, I don't know.

747
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 4: It's just a confusing time. Right around September of twenty fifteen.

748
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: So Wellswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn says, I personally am deeply

749
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: sorry that we've broken the trust of our customers and

750
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: the public. And he was in charge from two thousand

751
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: and eight to twenty fifteen, when I believe he resigned.

752
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 4: So throughout the whole thing, really yeah, yeah, it was

753
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 4: his ship well production, I guess throughout the production of.

754
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: The hole he called it the terrible mistakes of a

755
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: few people.

756
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 4: Right, oh boy, right, okay, yeah, but you know what, Okay,

757
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 4: so this is another big question is is who knew,

758
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 4: you know, how far up the chain did they notify

759
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 4: somebody that was happening.

760
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: Did he really know?

761
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 4: Did he not know?

762
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: You know?

763
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 4: That's that's another thing, is that it was a secret

764
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 4: that was kept from him. You're like, hey, Winter Corn,

765
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 4: we've got some some fantastic news. R TDI diesels are

766
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 4: our diesel engines rather are certified the United States, and

767
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 4: we got all the performance we wanted to and we

768
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 4: got the mileage that we wanted.

769
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: Out right, And did he just clap twice and say

770
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: great job, guys, that's lunch?

771
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly. You don't think he had any questions and

772
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 4: he follow up questions about you know, how that was

773
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 4: possible and you know, some of the struggles that they

774
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 4: had had in the past. So I don't know. I

775
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 4: feel like he did know something. I mean, I really,

776
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 4: I genuinely do. But three days later, okay, so so

777
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 4: we should say that stock went down immediately the next

778
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 4: day by a third. Yeah, he's way down. The very

779
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 4: next business day and Volkswagen was was said that they

780
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 4: were gonna they were going to spend I think it

781
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 4: was like seven and a half billion dollars I think, yeah,

782
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 4: to cover the the costs of the scandal, like, you know,

783
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 4: for the recall. I guess because at this point we're

784
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 4: really just talking about a recall. It's nothing more. I

785
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 4: shouldn't say nothing more, like I'm downplaying it. But it's huge.

786
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 4: This is a great, big recall. Wintercorn resigns, he's I

787
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 4: remember CEO. He resigns just three days after the announcement

788
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 4: is made to the public, and so on September twenty

789
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 4: third or twenty fifteen, he's out and someone brand new

790
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 4: is in. And Volkswagen then just a week later, announced

791
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 4: that they were going to refit up to eleven million

792
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 4: vehicles that were affected by these emissions, you know, the

793
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 4: the defeat devices.

794
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: I guess so. But they're still doing damage control. We

795
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: have to interject, because their new CEO is a guy

796
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 1: named Matthias mattheas Mueller, and he says, okay, hold on, guys,

797
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: the software was only activated in a part of those

798
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 1: eleven million cars.

799
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, yeah, sure it was.

800
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: So it's Max's damage control. But you can't blame people

801
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: of course that's what they would do. But now other

802
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: countries are involved, right, sure, this this has expanded beyond

803
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: the United States, beyond you know, Germany, and it's become

804
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 1: known as Diesel Gate. And one of the strangest things

805
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: about this story, Scott, is that it continues to unfold.

806
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: So by the time our episode comes out, there will

807
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: almost certainly be new developments in the mix.

808
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 4: Oh sure, yeah, yeah. You know, it's not just the

809
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 4: just the vehicles that we've talked about. I mean, there

810
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 4: were two leader vehicles, there were three leading vehicles. It

811
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 4: encompassed Volkswagen, it encompassed Audi Portal was involved. They have

812
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 4: a diesel engine as well in their in their Cayenne model,

813
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 4: So it encompasses a lot of different parts of the

814
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 4: company itself. You know, it's not just the one mark.

815
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 4: It's not just Volkswagen. It's it's at least three other

816
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: companies that are being forced I guess, yeah, actually forced

817
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 4: because they're not going to do this voluntarily really, I mean,

818
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 4: but they're being forced to to make good on this.

819
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 4: And there's a couple of programs as they set up

820
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 4: and you know, in order to make things right. So

821
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 4: Volkswagen set up what they call the Volkswagen TDI goodwill package.

822
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 4: And you know, there were a lot of back and

823
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: forth emails between dealerships and owners, I'm sure, and messages,

824
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 4: but essentially you can you can go online. You can

825
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 4: check your balance, you know, you enter your ven number,

826
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 4: you see if your vehicle's affected that type of thing.

827
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 4: You know, you search to make sure yours is one

828
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 4: of these, and then you can check like you're they

829
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 4: give you a loyalty card I think is one of

830
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 4: the things that they do that they one that is,

831
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: you know, it has cash on it. Another one is

832
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 4: good only at the dealership, and then I think another

833
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 4: one was a there's like a buyback program where you can,

834
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 4: you know, trade in your vehicle, you can terminate your lease,

835
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 4: and you know, there's a lot of different variances between

836
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 4: you know, what happens based on what vehicle you have

837
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 4: and what they allow. And that's a terrible way to

838
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 4: describe them.

839
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: Sorry.

840
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 4: If you go on to the site I think it's

841
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 4: called I think it's called VW Diesel info dot com,

842
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 4: even if you don't have one of these, you can

843
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 4: kind of find out what was made available to the

844
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 4: owners there.

845
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: Right right, And if you do happen to have a Volkswagen,

846
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: it is well worth your time to check if you

847
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: have it yet, to see whether your vehicle was affected

848
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: by this scandal, by this diesel gate and here on stuff.

849
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: They don't want you to know. One of the things

850
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: so we often run into is corporate malfeasance, right, That's

851
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: what this is. Yeah, And the question that we always

852
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: return to are sadly the same, And the primary question

853
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: is always going to be what happens to those responsible?

854
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 1: Are there any consequences for these actions? And to the

855
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: average consumer, regardless of which country they reside in. It

856
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: often seems that the so called the fat cats or

857
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: the titans of industry rarely have to face the music.

858
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're not held accountable.

859
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: They're not held accountable yet in this case. As legal

860
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: proceedings continue, we can tell you that in several instances,

861
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: people have been personally convicted or punished for this.

862
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

863
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: Very recently, very recently, Yes, Scott. In December of twenty seventeen,

864
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: someone actually went to prison.

865
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 4: Sure, not just someone, six people, Yeah, In fact, one

866
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 4: was here from the United States, Oliver Schmidt. He was

867
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 4: arrested in Florida, and that was very recently. That was

868
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 4: again in December, you say December of twenty seventeen, I think.

869
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 4: And then there were six other I'm sorry, five others,

870
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 4: I believe. So we're talking about six top executives that

871
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 4: have gone to jail or prison over this.

872
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: This is pretty unusual at this level in corporation.

873
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 4: You know, they've been charged. I'm not sure that they've

874
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 4: actually been sentenced at this point, but they've been charged.

875
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 4: So Volkswagen employees that were charged. There was Heinz Jacob Nooser,

876
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 4: who was he aversaw the development of the company's brand.

877
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 4: There was Jens Handler I believe that's YenS j e s.

878
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 4: Jens Handler, who oversaw the engine development program. And there's

879
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 4: Richard Dorincamp who was another supervisor of the engine development.

880
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 4: And then there was Bernard Goatweis who helped oversee the

881
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 4: quality management. And then there's Jurgen Peter, who was a

882
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 4: liaison between regulatory agencies and the carmaker themselves. So these

883
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 4: are top executives, they're they're the top of the game here,

884
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 4: and they're being held accountable for what happened. And you know,

885
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 4: this is a lot of people say, well, finally, finally,

886
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 4: you know, we're giving some justice out of this, because,

887
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 4: as you said, a lot of times something like this

888
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 4: happens and you don't hear of anybody really taking I

889
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,439
Speaker 4: guess taking responsibility for this right and not taking charge

890
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 4: of the situation saying yeah, that was my decision.

891
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 2: Let me.

892
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: Clarify the timeline here, because I said December of seventeen,

893
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, that is when Schmidt is sentenced, So these

894
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: charges are probably a.

895
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 4: Little bit earlier, probably months earlier.

896
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was originally looking at one hundred and sixty

897
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: nine years in prison scott on eleven felon accounts.

898
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 4: So they don't take this lightly, do they. I mean,

899
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 4: this is something very serious. And I don't know if

900
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 4: we've even said this number yet, but you know, we've talked,

901
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 4: we've thrown around a few numbers, sure of what this

902
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 4: is going to cost VW right in the end, And

903
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 4: you know they were talking early on about per vehicle

904
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 4: charges and I think it was like thirty seven. They

905
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 4: could be fine something like this is just here in

906
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 4: the United States. Thirty seven, five hundred dollars per vehicle

907
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 4: that they sold in the United States. That's more than

908
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,479
Speaker 4: a lot of those vehicles cost to begin with brand new,

909
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 4: So it's it's a healthy fine. I mean it's a

910
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 4: very big fine. And they were talking in the billions

911
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 4: of dollars, and you know, every day it seemed like

912
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 4: there was more and more bad news coming out. In

913
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 4: the end, this whole thing, you know, with the penalties

914
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 4: and everything, they're finding out that this is going to

915
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 4: end up costing the company something like twenty one billion dollars.

916
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 4: Twenty one billion billion with a B with a B

917
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 4: with a B, that's right. And you know, I think

918
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 4: there's something like, you know, four point three billion of

919
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 4: that is in just criminal and civil penalties. But then

920
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 4: the rest of that is in what the company has

921
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 4: to do, you know, either retrofitting the cars, either buying

922
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 4: back the cars, giving out these these these courtesy cards,

923
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 4: I forget what I call them, loyalty cards. I think

924
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 4: it's really really expensive for them. But more than twenty

925
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 4: billion dollars is what this is going to cost a company,

926
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 4: And more than that, this has cost this company their reputation.

927
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Volkswagen has been if you paid attention to

928
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 4: any of their public announcements recently, gone to any of

929
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 4: the websites, this is something that has just cut them

930
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 4: to the core. They don't know what to do because

931
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 4: they want to retain the people that they have already

932
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 4: that already believed in them. But a lot of those

933
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 4: people won't buy another Volkswagen. They don't find that they

934
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 4: can trust the company. And that's something that's really hard

935
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 4: is to earn that respect back again.

936
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 1: Which is which is a crying shame. It's two points. First,

937
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: on a personal note, I really like Volkswagens. I do too,

938
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: and I you know, I'm I'm wondering if now would

939
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: be the time for me to grab one, because I bet,

940
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: I bet I could get a deal. But the second

941
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: point is that this this huge cost that occurs to

942
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: Volkswagen should mention also hit the individuals who were tried

943
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: or convicted. So Schmid was facing one hundred and sixty

944
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: nine years in prison eleventh felony counts. For anyone who

945
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: is confused about why you would hear an individual sentence

946
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: to almost one hundred and seventy years in prison, we

947
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: can offer some clarity. That's usually that's often at least

948
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: to make sure the person actually does go to prison,

949
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: sure and serves some sort of time.

950
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, not one hundred and sixty nine years.

951
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: Really, right, we know that they might not all stick,

952
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's helping the bar. Yeah, So

953
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 1: he pled guilty and he ended up getting a prison

954
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 1: term of seven years for his guilty. Please, that's still

955
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: pretty stiff and four hundred thousand dollars fine.

956
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 4: Oh boy, wow? Okay, Well, seven years in prison, I mean,

957
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 4: that's that's not an easy sentence to take, you know.

958
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 4: I mean, if you're going from your executive world to prison,

959
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 4: it's you know, it's gotta be tough.

960
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 1: Rights, it's tough, and it's a consequence of this action.

961
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 4: And I wonder if the others are going to fall

962
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 4: suit and have similar sentences.

963
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: Right, I know that some other people are getting convicted

964
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: or have been convicted. Yeah right.

965
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 4: The other five I believe were over in Germany somewhere

966
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 4: in Europe. I'm not sure if it's in Germany. They

967
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 4: might be in Spain or you know, somewhere else. But yeah,

968
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 4: they are likely to see similar, similar charges levied against.

969
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: Them, and there's more fallout. In January of twenty eighteen,

970
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: it was revealed that get this, Scott Volkswagen was also

971
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: using primates using monkeys, in vehicle emissions experiments. With the

972
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: stringent testing laws that a lot of countries have, this is,

973
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: if not illegal, it's a very bad look.

974
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 4: So oh yeah, this is this is not looking good

975
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 4: on the face.

976
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: Of it at all. They did this in twenty fifteen.

977
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: They had four hour long experiments where they locked Java monkeys,

978
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: ten Java monkeys in these tiny rooms, filled them with

979
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: emissions to see you know, like, what would happen?

980
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 4: That's awful, isn't it. I hate to hear about stuff

981
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:04,959
Speaker 4: like this, but but it seems like the bad news

982
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 4: just keeps piling on and piling on, Like when when

983
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 4: is it all going to kind of settle? You know,

984
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 4: when is it going to be over right for Volkswagen?

985
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: What's the what's the fallout? As we're recording this today.

986
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: That is an answer that we can only hope to

987
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,919
Speaker 1: find in the future. Sure, but for now we are

988
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: going to conclude our examination of the real life automotive

989
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: conspiracy notic conspiracy theory, uh, you know, the great Volkswagen

990
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: cover up. And Scott, I want to thank you very

991
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. Now, there are a

992
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: couple of secret projects that you have in the works,

993
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: which I don't believe we're I'm looking at Paul here.

994
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: I don't believe we're at liberty to divulge yet.

995
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: Now.

996
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 4: I don't think we are not yet. But but I've

997
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 4: got something that's keep me busy for sure when I'm

998
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 4: off Mike.

999
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 3: Uh.

1000
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's something that's going to be coming out hopefully,

1001
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 4: you know, let's say Midsummer somewhere around there. But I

1002
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 4: think your listeners will find it interesting.

1003
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 1: We can only tell you that it would truly be

1004
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: a crime not to tune in. Very clever, Hey, I

1005
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: worked on that earlier.

1006
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 4: Well, Ben, thanks for having me here today. I really

1007
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 4: appreciate it. I always love being on the show. Oh

1008
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 4: and I hope that you know I did the topic justice.

1009
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 4: I know that you know, we probably skirted over some

1010
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 4: issues that people would like to hear a little bit

1011
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 4: more about. But that's one of the fascinating things about

1012
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 4: the story is that there are so many twists and

1013
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 4: turns and angles to look at this that you know

1014
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 4: you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to delve deeper

1015
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 4: into the story, because what we can cover in an

1016
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 4: hour is just scraping the surface. Really, I mean, we're

1017
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 4: giving you the high points of it, but really dig

1018
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,479
Speaker 4: into it and find out what's what's going on behind

1019
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 4: the scenes, and it's fascinating.

1020
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 1: I would I would also call them the low points.

1021
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess so. Well, thanks again for letting.

1022
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: Me be here. Oh likewise, yeah, the pleasure is ours, sir.

1023
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: And of course Matt and Nole send their regards on it. Wow,

1024
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: you've got you've got a secret. Matt and nol are

1025
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 1: on secret missions. God knows what Pall's up to. He's

1026
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: shaking his head and shrugging. Here am I am I

1027
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 1: the last one without secrets?

1028
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 4: Maybe I think you've got your own secrets.

1029
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: I am a pretty sketchy individual. But yes, thank you Scott,

1030
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: and just as importantly, friends and neighbors, ladies and gentlemen,

1031
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: thank you for listening. Let us know. Do you drive

1032
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: of Oldswagen? Have you been affected by this? Do you

1033
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: think that Do you think that the legal actions taken

1034
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: against this company are appropriate? Do you think instead they

1035
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: are governments making an example of an auto manufacturer?

1036
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 4: Is it too harsh or not harsh enough?

1037
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 1: Right? Exactly? Is there, for lack of a better phrase,

1038
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: is there a goldilocks you know zone with this punishment,

1039
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: and also what should this be applied to other companies?

1040
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: You know, what are other examples of companies that have

1041
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: committed massive fraud like this and have you know, and

1042
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 1: what happened to their leaders at the time.

1043
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 4: Can I add one thing to please, just curiosity with

1044
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 4: the emissions thing in general? You know, why why is

1045
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 4: it that only in Atlanta, in the state of Georgia

1046
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 4: we have to have emissions when the rest of Georgia

1047
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 4: doesn't have to.

1048
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: You're really sort of about that one. Well, I kind of.

1049
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 4: Them because I've lived in places that you don't have to,

1050
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 4: and then across the street you do have to. Oh yeah,

1051
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 4: you know that type of situation. So you know, I'm

1052
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 4: just curious, like what you feel about it on your

1053
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 4: you know personally, you know, what do you think about it?

1054
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 4: Like do your neighbors have to do it but you

1055
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 4: don't because you live across the county line?

1056
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's not as if the air itself stays

1057
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: within a district.

1058
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 4: No, exactly, So you know, is it too arbitrary? I mean,

1059
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 4: should it just be you know, all encompassing, should everybody

1060
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 4: have to adhere to the same standards or should we

1061
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 4: just have none I mean, where would that put us?

1062
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm just fascinated by that whole thing too.

1063
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 3: Let us and that's the end of this classic app.

1064
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 3: If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,

1065
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 3: you can get into contact with us in a number

1066
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 3: of different ways. One of the best is to give

1067
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 3: us a call. Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK.

1068
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 3: If you don't want to do that, you can send

1069
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 3: us a good old fashioned email.

1070
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1071
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 3: Stuff they Don't want you to know is a production

1072
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1073
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.