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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you. But you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: It's another mass shooting. There's no I don't, I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a good way to start this episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but welcome jac it appen here a podcast that is

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Speaker 2: also just about mass shootings now because yeah, great great

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Speaker 2: world we live in with me is Gare and Robert Hello.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Yeah, so a Nazi killed a whole bunch of

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Speaker 3: people again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in case there's been another one, we are we

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Speaker 1: are talking about the specific as shooting in Allen, Texas

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Speaker 1: with the guy who was covered in swastika tattoos that

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Speaker 1: certain people are claiming as a fed. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That happened on Sunday, May seventh. So I think I

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Speaker 3: think MIA has some details about what actually happened to

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Speaker 3: kind of put together, but for the majority that we're

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Speaker 3: actually going to be talking about people's reaction to this,

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Speaker 3: including some of the most influential people on the planet.

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Speaker 3: And the level of reality denial that is, it has

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Speaker 3: been bad before, it's just extra visible right now, and

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Speaker 3: it's visible to a degree that is that is pretty worrying,

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Speaker 3: and we felt it was it was worth talking about

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Speaker 3: just because of you know, whenever a reality fracture is

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Speaker 3: big enough to be like this this noticeable, that is

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Speaker 3: always always an interesting sign of where we are at

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Speaker 3: as a culture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so before we fully dive into that,

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Speaker 2: there's something that I do want to talk about like

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Speaker 2: briefly with this, which is that so like this is

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Speaker 2: you know, in the sort of mold of like white

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Speaker 2: premises killings, is like, this is very very targeted and

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Speaker 2: non white people. So he shot one white guy who

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Speaker 2: was a security guard, and then he shot like three

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Speaker 2: Latino people and then four Asian people. And I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to just sort of like remind people that

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Speaker 2: anti Asian violence is still like a thing because everyone

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Speaker 2: seems to have forgotten about it, and you know, this

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Speaker 2: is like I mean, I think if you exclude the

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Speaker 2: if you exclude the three in California that were like

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Speaker 2: also committed by Asian people, says like the fourth mass

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Speaker 2: shooting in two years that's been at least half the

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Speaker 2: victims of an Asian It fucking sucks, I you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've talked about antias violence a decent amount

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Speaker 2: on this show. None of the things we've ever talked

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Speaker 2: about have gotten any better. The only sort of actual

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Speaker 2: instrument the results of any of this is that like

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Speaker 2: violence against Asian people get used as a rhetorical cudgel

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Speaker 2: to justify killing black people, which is fucking abhorrent. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to get this in because the media

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Speaker 2: has collectively forgotten that that was the whole thing, and

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Speaker 2: no one really talks about the shooting in that framing,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's important to do so at least

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Speaker 2: for a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I think the other thing to kind of just talk

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Speaker 3: about it at the top here. Latino white supremacists and

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Speaker 3: Latino Nazis are not They are not an uncommon thing.

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Speaker 3: This is actually quite common. Two of the most famous

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Speaker 3: fascists in the world right now, Nick Fuentes and Enrique Tario,

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Speaker 3: are not white.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just like, think about think about where I mean,

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Speaker 1: think about the fact that prior to World War Two,

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Speaker 1: Argentina spent a significant chunk of their defense budget bringing

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Speaker 1: over Nazis to train their military, which is a big

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Speaker 1: part of why so many Nazis escaped there via rat lines.

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Speaker 1: You know, we just did a series of episodes on

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Speaker 1: Alfredo Stressner, the fascist dictator of Paraguay who put up

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Speaker 1: and hid Joseph Mengola along with a bunch of other

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Speaker 1: Nazis for a while. Mangola had citizenship in both Argentina

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Speaker 1: and in Paraguay. Like, this is it's not uncommon. This

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Speaker 1: is not like a new thing. We're not It's not

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Speaker 1: like some sudden shift in the way that fascism works.

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Speaker 3: Even the shooter himself like posted memes about being a

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Speaker 3: Latino white supremacist, Like it is a subculture big enough

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Speaker 3: that it has its own like meme of vortex. So

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Speaker 3: and this shooter was actively engaged in in said like

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Speaker 3: a me medic culture.

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Speaker 1: No, And it's also worth noting that a lot of

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Speaker 1: the same things that we talk about when we talk

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Speaker 1: about Nazi mass shooter culture in the United States, the

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Speaker 1: fact that a lot of shootings are kind of incited

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Speaker 1: on eight Chan and four chan and similar boards. This

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Speaker 1: happens in Latin America. Brazil in particular has a website

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Speaker 1: called degola chan that has spawned at least a couple

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Speaker 1: of shootings. In the last year, They've had several more

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Speaker 1: mass shootings that are political in nature, that are kind

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Speaker 1: of driven by online fascists. Like this is not the

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Speaker 1: only place that this happened. Serbia just had a couple

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Speaker 1: as well. But like, what what what? What this guy's

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Speaker 1: doing is very much just as the christ shooting was

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Speaker 1: very much something that occurred within the broader envelope of

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Speaker 1: a transnational accelerationist fascist movement, you know, the Allen shooting,

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Speaker 1: as far as we can tell what the information we

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Speaker 1: have available, seems to fit very well into that schema.

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Speaker 5: Okay, we should talk about the shooter a bit.

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Speaker 2: So there's there's a sort of I don't know, there's

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Speaker 2: like a after every mass shooting, there's this sort of

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Speaker 2: like identification cycle thing that happens, where like a bunch

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Speaker 2: of musations us AN organizations still trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: who the shooter was.

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Speaker 5: So I think like the day after, very very very

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Speaker 5: like pretty.

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Speaker 2: Soon after the shooting, there's the new York Times runs

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Speaker 2: an article that reveals that the shooter has this like

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Speaker 2: has an account on like a kind of weird Russian

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Speaker 2: social media site. And from from that information, uh Eric Toler,

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Speaker 2: who's a bell researcher, a belling cat like, tracks down

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Speaker 2: the site and he finds a bunch of wild stuff.

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Speaker 2: He finds like, I mean, obviously the shooter is like

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Speaker 2: he finds it the shooter is a Nazi. He has

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Speaker 2: like a swastika tattoo. He has also has an SS

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Speaker 2: tattoo from the shooting. He's wearing like a right wing

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Speaker 2: desk squad patches. Like it's just like a whole thing

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Speaker 2: that the Proud Boys also do. It's like a patch

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Speaker 2: that says like rw.

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Speaker 1: D, Yeah, they sell our WDS patches. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of it kind of comes out of

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Speaker 1: some of the discourse around Pinochet that goes back a

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Speaker 1: few decades, but at this point it's a much broader

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Speaker 1: thing than that. I've got a bunch of photos of

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Speaker 1: Jeremy Brederimo I think is his now who is one

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Speaker 1: of the Proud Boys. I believe he's the guy who

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Speaker 1: got stabbed prior to January sixth during one of the

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Speaker 1: big riots in DC after the twenty twenty election, but

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Speaker 1: with the big RWDS patch on his chest. And you

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Speaker 1: can find like Tasitala Tozy, who is an inveterate rioter

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Speaker 1: with a Patriot prayer up in Portland, would wear them

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Speaker 1: all the time. They're a common piece of fascism merch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, and this and also you know

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Speaker 2: the other thing that's kind of important that gets found

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Speaker 2: on this like social media site, which okay, I wish

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Speaker 2: you it's a kind of weird thing, like he doesn't

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Speaker 2: I don't know the social media site. Seems like he

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Speaker 2: was basically using as like a journal, Like he doesn't

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Speaker 2: like follow people or like have followers, so he's just

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Speaker 2: sort of posting this stuff. He also finds a bunch

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Speaker 2: of clips of like Timpoole videos, and so this immediately

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Speaker 2: sends the entire right into like you know, full on

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Speaker 2: defense mode, right. You know, it turns out it's it's

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Speaker 2: not great for your brand with like the sort of

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Speaker 2: general array of people if it's being associated with a

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Speaker 2: guy who just did a mass shooting. So Tim Poole

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Speaker 2: responds to the other thing is there's there's like a

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Speaker 2: manifesto on it, and Tim Poole responds to this by

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Speaker 2: I think I think what actually, like legitimately what happened

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Speaker 2: is he read the manifesto and there's a thing in

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Speaker 2: the manifesto like talking about the Nashville shooter being trans

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Speaker 2: or like specifically about the Nashville shooter. And I think

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Speaker 2: I think specifically he read that and was like, oh shit,

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Speaker 2: this is my out. I can go back and talking

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Speaker 2: about the Nashville shooter. Sure, And so he starts, he

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Speaker 2: starts this. There's this whole sort of train of like

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Speaker 2: right wing stuff about how all of this is fake.

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Speaker 2: So he starts arguing that, like this isn't the guy's

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Speaker 2: social media account. This this sort of very very rapidly

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Speaker 2: morphs into i mean, just like full on like Sandy

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Speaker 2: hook shit, what if his employees like tweets? Why is

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Speaker 2: the corporate press so threatened by people questioning the authenticity

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Speaker 2: of a Mexican neo nazi's Russian social media account uncovered

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Speaker 2: by state funded media? And this because this immediately becomes

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Speaker 2: the mainline right state funded media things. They're talking about

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Speaker 2: Belling Cat, which.

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Speaker 3: They're they're hopping on all of the Tanky conspiracies.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, running with it.

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Speaker 3: Because Twitter is a is a cultic milieu of conspiracy,

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Speaker 3: and you can latch onto one talking point to make

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Speaker 3: you feel okay about denying an entire like facet of

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Speaker 3: reality and then it becomes an easy out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're gonna we're gonna circle back to like

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Speaker 2: specifically the tanking people getting involved in this because they do.

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Speaker 1: What they're doing is a little bit of like and

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Speaker 1: uh an evolution from what what's what? Folks kind of

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Speaker 1: in the debating Christians about evolution and shit called the

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Speaker 1: Gish gallop, where the the the original idea of the

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Speaker 1: Gish gallop was when you're arguing from a creationist perspective

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Speaker 1: about stuff like, you know, the age of the world,

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Speaker 1: you bring up so many different kind of topics, you know,

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Speaker 1: from different very niche issues you have a carbon dating to,

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Speaker 1: you know, specific problems you have with like the way

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Speaker 1: scientists are interpreting specific fossils, and it's just too much

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Speaker 1: detail for somebody in like an ad hoc public argument

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Speaker 1: to really like counter at once. And kind of the

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Speaker 1: evolution of it is when you're dealing with something like

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Speaker 1: this rather than deal with the broader picture, which is

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Speaker 1: there's just a tremendous amount of evidence that this guy

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Speaker 1: was a Nazi, that this guy was motivated and kind

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Speaker 1: of brought into the community by a lot of content

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Speaker 1: that guys like Tim Poole make. Instead you focus on,

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Speaker 1: you pull up one single thing that you can kind

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Speaker 1: of like try to get people to latch onto, and

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Speaker 1: if you can get them arguing about that thing, you

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Speaker 1: can get them to ignore the bigger picture, like at

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Speaker 1: least you can distract attention from it.

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Speaker 7: And it works.

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Speaker 1: It works for a lot of people. It's especially effective

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Speaker 1: on social media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and unfortunately the social media platform that this is

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Speaker 2: mainly happening on his Twitter, which Elon Musk owns, and

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk immediately like decides that he's just fully in

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Speaker 2: on this shit, and he is, I mean she is, like,

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Speaker 2: like Elon Musk is is just actively promoting the sort

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Speaker 2: of weird conspiracy that basically what the sort of right

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Speaker 2: wing story about this becomes is that like, okay, Belling

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Speaker 2: Cat is is the CIA, and they're being paid to

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Speaker 2: create a like a false flag thing that okay, they're

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Speaker 2: they're they're being paid to create a false flag to

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Speaker 2: to make this guy look like a Nazi and a

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Speaker 2: timpoole fan to distract people from the Nashville shooting, which

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Speaker 2: is just like.

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Speaker 5: The absolute nonsense.

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Speaker 2: But you know, you you immediately get into like that

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Speaker 2: that Tim Pool employee again, like it like starts doing

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Speaker 2: this whole like we are enshrined with liberty to freely

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Speaker 2: scrutinize every claim, just as the sanctity of like every

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Speaker 2: human being in America like has the right to question stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's like this is like literally like literally word for

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Speaker 2: word stuff Alex Jones was saying in the Sandy Hook trial.

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Speaker 2: But we've gotten to the point where you just you know,

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Speaker 2: like the sort of mainstream of the right just does

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Speaker 2: this about every time it's a writing mass shooting, and

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Speaker 2: this this particular time, it's been just everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're we're, we're gonna there's no no, no smooth

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Speaker 1: way to break to ads in an episode about a

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Speaker 1: mass shooting, but that's what we're doing.

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Speaker 7: We are back.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk now a little bit more about

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Speaker 3: the actual exchanges that Musk was involved in and how

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Speaker 3: this narrative of like a syop and this whole narrative

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Speaker 3: around the shooting being a syeop, how that viewpoint got

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Speaker 3: inflated on Twitter because must controls where all of the

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Speaker 3: interactions go for tweets and actually like specifically get into

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Speaker 3: how this specific conspiracy is is a demonstration of how

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Speaker 3: much of just a separation from reality that people like

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Speaker 3: Musk are like actively actively working towards. One of the

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Speaker 3: main accounts that Musk was kind of like riffing off

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Speaker 3: of in this and who was like trying to like

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Speaker 3: feed Musk this type of stuff was the redheaded libertarian

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Speaker 3: who works for Timpoole. She created a bunch of memes

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Speaker 3: about this shooting talking about how how this the guy

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Speaker 3: can't can't be a Nazi and he because he's Latino.

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Speaker 3: You know, why would someone use a Russian social media site?

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Speaker 3: Even tho it's actually very common for American notaptries to

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Speaker 3: use Russian social media.

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Speaker 1: We used to do an exercise at a trainings that

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Speaker 1: I did for Bellancat where people would go through and

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Speaker 1: use v Contacta, which is a Russian like kind of

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Speaker 1: Facebook clone, and you would kind of use geographical search

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Speaker 1: to find of like KKK members and shit in the

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Speaker 1: American South, because it was really common with them because

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Speaker 1: it didn't have any kind of content moderation.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so the types of like right wing content

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Speaker 3: creators who are within Musk's Twitter orbit start pumping out

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Speaker 3: all of this stuff, right, and this is where Musk

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Speaker 3: gets all of his information from. So he starts he

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Speaker 3: starts like just questioning the validity of this story, but

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Speaker 3: then also specifically targeting belling Cat, saying that didn't didn't

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Speaker 3: didn't this story come from Bellingat, which literally specializes in

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Speaker 3: psychological operations, which, first of all, is just a wild

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Speaker 3: thing to say when you're talking about is specifically like

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Speaker 3: an open source journalism website, Like it's the most the

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Speaker 3: most honest way you could do journalism because it's given

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Speaker 3: people the tools to literally check all of the work themselves.

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Speaker 5: Like it's yeah, I mean this is.

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Speaker 2: Kind of like a minor aside, but one of the

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Speaker 2: things that happens here constantly with all these people is

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Speaker 2: they're like absolutely astounded, like like how how how did

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Speaker 2: belling get possibly find this? It's like, well, it's not

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Speaker 2: that hard, it's really easy. The thing is the thing

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Speaker 2: is right if if so, Like, I am not a journalist, right,

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Speaker 2: I learned everything I know about this from gare in

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Speaker 2: like one night, and like I have tracked down like

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Speaker 2: mass you too social media accounts and like before the

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Speaker 2: police got them, Like it's not that hard.

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Speaker 6: But the thing is it requires you to even like just.

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Speaker 5: A tiny tiny bit be a journalist.

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Speaker 2: And not a single one of these writing people has

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Speaker 2: ever like done journalism ever, and so like just like

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Speaker 2: the tiniest bit of journalism just like destroys their brains

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Speaker 2: and they're like they are physically incapable of comprehending how

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Speaker 2: someone could have done a journalism and then they use

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Speaker 2: this to sort of feed their base because their base

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Speaker 2: also just doesn't understand how someone could do a journalism

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Speaker 2: and this this, this, this lets you do this like

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Speaker 2: cycle of like how could they possibly have found this?

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Speaker 2: They must have been given it by the government.

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Speaker 3: It's just like No, all that really comes down to

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Speaker 3: is is who has who is on their computer at

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Speaker 3: the right time when this thing happens. Yeah, whenever I

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Speaker 3: find out or whenever I can id people, it's always

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Speaker 3: just like coincidence that the thing happens as I'm already

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Speaker 3: at my computer, so now I can look into this thing, right,

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Speaker 3: it is It is just who has access to the

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Speaker 3: internet at the right time is the way that we

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Speaker 3: figure out like, who's gonna end up iding somebody?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a mix of that, and it's a

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Speaker 1: mix of just who has the patience and the motivation

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Speaker 1: to sit and comb through shit for hours and days,

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Speaker 1: which is the same thing that like, it's the same

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Speaker 1: thing at anti fascist activists have been doing for years,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially since Charlottesville, where you're just like, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to watch the same videos of the same event

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Speaker 1: and find new ones and I'm going to spend three

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Speaker 1: years doing that, and eventually I will catch a tattoo

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Speaker 1: or a shirt with a logo and that will let

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Speaker 1: me id somebody, because you know, of the of the

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Speaker 1: different social media shit that I've been pulling up, like

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's not it doesn't take like spice satellites.

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Speaker 1: It just takes motivation, being in the right place at

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Speaker 1: the right time and having nothing else to do.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So eventually they started just kind of harping on this

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Speaker 3: term syop, so sich obviously means psychological operation. But what

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Speaker 3: what they mean when they say syop is that they

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Speaker 3: mean this was like a government, This is a false

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Speaker 3: like a manufactured government planned operation. That's what they actually mean, right,

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Speaker 3: Like in in the conspiracy space, syop is is more

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Speaker 3: like a loaded term they don't actually refer to like

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Speaker 3: actual syops that get doning like against like you know,

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Speaker 3: you can look at like co Intel pro right, you

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Speaker 3: can look at you can look at various ways that

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Speaker 3: the FBI of the army has done syops. But what

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Speaker 3: they mean when they say syop is this is like

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Speaker 3: this is a government conspiracy theory and it's a false

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Speaker 3: narrative that's been crafted to like change public opinions. So

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Speaker 3: I guess, I guess these people mea you mentioned how

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Speaker 3: they're making it sound like this was this was created

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Speaker 3: to distract from the Nashville shooting or just just they

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Speaker 3: have various like motivations for why they want to but

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Speaker 3: it the important part is that they could use this

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Speaker 3: word to just easily deny reality, and that is that

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Speaker 3: it is kind of beyond like whatever motivations they have.

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Speaker 3: It's just easy for them and their ideology to just

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Speaker 3: block off this section of reality so that they don't

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Speaker 3: have to Like people who are like actually libertarians don't

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Speaker 3: need to like confront what the extent of their ideology

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Speaker 3: actually means. Right, you know, there's certainly people who are

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Speaker 3: like okay with mass shootings happening, or you know, are

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Speaker 3: totally fine with with with with like non white people

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Speaker 3: getting killed in mass shootings. But there probably are certain

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Speaker 3: libertarians who don't actually like mass shootings. They don't actually

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Speaker 3: like when fascists go kill tons of people, and it's

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Speaker 3: easier for them sometimes just to block off this section

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Speaker 3: and ignore it than actually confront what their ideology means.

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Speaker 3: So some must kept saying this is either the weirdest

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Speaker 3: story ever or a very bad syop. The answer is neither.

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Speaker 3: This story is not super weird. It's actually very very

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Speaker 3: explainable if you understand the mechanisms at play here, and

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Speaker 3: even just not a bad SI Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's not even like it's not on it's

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Speaker 1: like on the whole. It's not a particularly complicated story

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Speaker 1: like there are. It is not an uncommon thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the biggest, most recent one before this was that that

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Speaker 1: shooting in New York at the grocery store that was

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Speaker 1: like a directly inspired Nazi attack. Like this kind of

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Speaker 1: shit happens constantly in the United States. It doesn't require

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Speaker 1: nobody has to be secretly armed by the Feds. There's

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Speaker 1: an AR fifteen behind every bush in this country. It's

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Speaker 1: not hard for this kind of this kind of shit,

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Speaker 1: It's not hard to see where this like originates from.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's I mean, Muska just kept kept replying

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Speaker 3: to both Timpoole employee tweets tweets from the very blatantly

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Speaker 3: fascist account to end Wokeness, which Musk has been replying

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Speaker 3: to quite a quite often recently. So this and I

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Speaker 3: think the reason why we wanted to just talk about

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Speaker 3: this specifically is just because of you. Like, all of

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Speaker 3: these Musk tweets are getting like millions and millions of views,

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Speaker 3: if the view counter is any is anything to go by.

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Speaker 3: At the very least, he's in the top three accounts

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Speaker 3: with the highest engagement on Twitter. So these these types

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Speaker 3: of conspiracy theories are getting inflated to extremely high degrees

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Speaker 3: at least online, and the separation of reality online is

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Speaker 3: inflated for these mass shootings in a way that I

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Speaker 3: have not seen in quite a while. I have not

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Speaker 3: seen this much just denial of like information regarding mass

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Speaker 3: shootings in quite a long time. And the combination of

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Speaker 3: the stuff like the stuff with Belling Cat coming from

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Speaker 3: the tankies and how those conspiracies have now mashed with

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Speaker 3: all of these like neo fascist shit. It's a combination

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Speaker 3: of reality denial that is absolutely worrying for like future

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Speaker 3: mass shootings as well.

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Speaker 1: It's a pivot in the kind of reality that's being denied.

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Speaker 1: You know, not we have nothing to do with these

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Speaker 1: Nazis who are parroting some of the things that we

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Speaker 1: say about immigration. It's this is fundamentally not the attack

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Speaker 1: that you think it is. This is our enemies creating

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Speaker 1: an attack to try to make us look bad. Like

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Speaker 1: the fact that that you've always seen and pieces of that.

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Speaker 1: The fact that it's being parroted by the wealthiest man

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Speaker 1: on the planet using one of the biggest information fire

396
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Speaker 1: hoses that exists is completely novel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I mean a lot of these same conspiracy

398
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Speaker 3: theories that specifically about like Eric Toler, we saw we

399
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Speaker 3: saw leftists and tankies bringing up the same stuff during

400
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Speaker 3: the UH, during the stuff with the Nazi National guardsmen

401
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 3: a month ago. So we have a lot of this

402
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 3: stuff has kind of been writing on the back of

403
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Speaker 3: that and just continued and accelerating UH since then. It

404
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 3: appears there's a few outlets like Business Insider and Blank

405
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Speaker 3: at themselves reporting that they are they are receiving basically

406
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Speaker 3: shadow bands on Twitter right now, with their with their

407
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Speaker 3: with their account and their posts having a very limited reach.

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Speaker 1: An interesting shadow band too, because it's not like it.

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Speaker 1: It appears, at least from what I've seen, that what

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00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: they're doing is they're making it so that when people

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Speaker 1: type belling Cat into the search bar, nothing comes up,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to like throttling the reach of the actual

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Speaker 1: posts themselves, trying to make it deliberately difficult for people

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Speaker 1: to actually look up information, which is interesting to me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess I guess it's worth saying that

416
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Speaker 3: the police and Texas have confirmed everything about about the

417
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Speaker 3: shooters political beliefs and his new Nazi ties, and he

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Speaker 3: has a neo Nazi shit in his apartment. Obviously his

419
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Speaker 3: body is covered with neuo Nazi tattoos. One of the

420
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Speaker 3: things that some of the kind of right wing content

421
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 3: creators were trying to do is that they were trying

422
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Speaker 3: to say that the specific pictures of the individual that

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Speaker 3: belling Cat found online, that that these pictures were not

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Speaker 3: this person. They in fact that they were saying, they

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Speaker 3: were saying that the shooter is just somebody else, which

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Speaker 3: was also proven rob but yeah, they also.

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Speaker 2: They also they did another classic right wing thing, which

428
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 2: is that they misidentified the shooter. Yes, I thought it

429
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Speaker 2: was another guy with the same name, because.

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Speaker 1: Like and they misidentify the shooter, and they misidentified the

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Speaker 1: non Nazi tattoo that he had, yes, because he had

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Speaker 1: he had weirdly enough, like the city of Dallas's seal

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Speaker 1: tattooed on his hands.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Texas tattoo on his shoulder.

435
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. They they like definitely, like there were a lot

436
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: of conspiracy theories about that, and a lot of them

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00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: related to the fact that, like the first photos we

438
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: got of the guy were like the kind of photos

439
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: you get of a dead man at a mass shooting

440
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: that someone takes through a window while sheltering, So it

441
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: wasn't clear. So they would take a picture of like

442
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: a social media picture of the tattoo on his hand,

443
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: and then a picture of him dead, and like the

444
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: tattoo on his hand in the picture of him dead

445
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 1: was like blurrier, and they were like, look, the lines

446
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: aren't straight. They're straight in the picture on his social

447
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 1: media and it's like, well, yeah, because those were taken

448
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: by very different cameras in very different situations. Like you

449
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: know how cameras work, you know how this this is

450
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: of what.

451
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: Of the funnier ones that one of these content creators

452
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 3: was doing was they were they were posting the the

453
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 3: photos of of the Nazi tattoos that the shooter himself

454
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 3: posted online, being like, look how fresh these tattoos are.

455
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 6: How can.

456
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 3: If he had these tattoos for years, why do they

457
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 3: look so fresh at these photos?

458
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 6: Because the photos were from right after.

459
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: Him, like you do when you get a tattoo. Yeah,

460
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: there's like I have tattoos pictures of me getting tattoos

461
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: from like fifteen years ago somewhere on my Facebook. Like

462
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: you could do the same thing, suspicious Robert.

463
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 3: One of the interesting things is that like we see

464
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: the same thing with all of like all of the

465
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 3: worries around like deep faking stuff, like all of all

466
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 3: of the like weaponized on reality stuff. It doesn't need

467
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: to actually be convincing. It it doesn't need to be

468
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 3: good like like deep fakes don't need to be good quality.

469
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 3: You can you can post a meme of like a

470
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 3: picture of Biden's face and some text on it with

471
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: a quotation mark post on Facebook and millions of people

472
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: will believe that's just true. Like it doesn't need to

473
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 3: be real or convincing in order for it to have

474
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: it like an effect.

475
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: And it's also it's not just about I think it's

476
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: it's thinking, Like, it's not just about convincing people. It's

477
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: not about making them believe it. This is like, this

478
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: is the thing that I tried to talk about years

479
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: ago during the Eight Chance shooting. It's shit posting. Part

480
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: of the goal is just to disrupt conversation. It's to

481
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: make people engage with the fake stuff. It's to make

482
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,239
Speaker 1: people break kind of the lines of reasoning that they

483
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: are going in with, Like it's to make people distract

484
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 1: people from the stuff that is really clear and obvious

485
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: and just kind of fracture the conversation. Because the more

486
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: that you do that kind of the weaker you make

487
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: the response to what's happened, and the more kind of

488
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: that you can distract people from the degree of complicity

489
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: that the people in kind of the media sphere on

490
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: the right have for all of this shit.

491
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's why it's like specifically going

492
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 2: after the Billin Cat stuff has been really effective with

493
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: UP because like like there are like people who I

494
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: am friends with in real life who like are convinced

495
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: that billing cares as a CIA si op, Like this

496
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: is like a like they like really not insignificant portions

497
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 2: of the left believe this, yep. And that means that

498
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: it's you know, unbelievably difficult to form any kind of

499
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: coherent response when like half of the people who would

500
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 2: normally be doing this stuff are like, oh, well they

501
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: are actually CIA, So.

502
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 3: Like, yes, the the Netherlands based CIA unit.

503
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like yeah there. I mean like at least

504
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: in the time I was there, the primary people funding

505
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: us was the Dutch post code lottery, Like it's it's

506
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, like.

507
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 3: Like almost every news organization they take grants where yeah,

508
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 3: where they can get them.

509
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I want to specifically talk about the

510
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: NYDA a tiny bit because people like, so the main

511
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: conspiracy is about like they like at one point they

512
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 2: took they took a grant for the National Talent for

513
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: Democracy and like, yeah, those people do weird shit sometimes,

514
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: but they also for example, like if okay, so if

515
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 2: you're gonna have the line that every single person who's

516
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: taking money for the n D is a CIA thing,

517
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 2: Like you have to accept that. For example, like the

518
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: pro Beijing Electoral Party in Hong Kong is a CIA

519
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: op because they also got a shit ton of any

520
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 2: D money, right, Like, like any just gives money to

521
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: a shit ton of people.

522
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 3: It's definitely worth emphasizing that, like the initial groups that

523
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 3: are pushing the Bellingkt conspiracies were all gray zone people

524
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: that are specifically specifically paid by the Russian government, like

525
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: because Russia was mad at Bellinkat for exposing their war crimes. Yeah,

526
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 3: and like that's where all of this stuff starts.

527
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: There's I don't know how much point there is in

528
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: like laying into this specific thing too much. Would I

529
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 1: would remind you at all times when you are like

530
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: dealing with breaking news like this and there's a bunch

531
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: of different and there's a bunch of different kind of

532
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: like conflicting arguments about what's actually happening. Okham's raiser isn't

533
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the time the way to go.

534
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: But in a situation like this, you have two possibilities.

535
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: One is that a Nazi went on a killing spree,

536
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: as happens constantly, as has been happening since the Nazis

537
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: became a thing. The other possibility is that the federal government,

538
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: for unclear reasons, convinced a man to cover his body

539
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: in swastika tattoos and shoot random people at a mall

540
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: for gun control. That's not going to get passed in

541
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: the state of Texas. I don't know, like which of

542
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: those seems likely to you.

543
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: I did this thing like very deliberately to myself, like

544
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: about a year ago, where I was like, I was

545
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: very deliberate, like I'm going to like un conspiracy theory

546
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: my brain, because you know, like there is a lot

547
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: of like like the kind of reasoning you get in

548
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: this stuff, which is like, hey, here's a thing that like,

549
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: quote unquote looks weird, so this whole thing must be suspect,

550
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: so it must be an op is like a really

551
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: really kind of like it's a really common kind of

552
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: reasoning now that just like a lot of people across

553
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: the entire poetic conpectionum have and it's not actually a

554
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: good way to understand the worlds like it's it simply

555
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: is not.

556
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 3: We live in an increasingly absurd world where every single

557
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: weird thing is more and more visible because of the Internet,

558
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: so we're more aware of how much weird shit happens

559
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: all the time, and stuff that and stuff that may

560
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 3: not not necessarily be weird, because like everything, there is

561
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: an expert in every field who can explain to you

562
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: why this thing actually makes perfect sense. And it's just

563
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: people being exposed to things that they're not usually that

564
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: they're not used to. I think one of the interesting

565
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 3: one of the last things I think we should like

566
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: mention about this is just the influx of how militant

567
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 3: like neo Nazism or like visible ne Nazism has just

568
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: been People have just been saying it's Feds in an

569
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: increasingly concerning way, like like I think, like a last month,

570
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: there was this viral video of a whole bunch of

571
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: Nazis stressed in red and black, I think, protesting something.

572
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 3: I forget the exact circumstances at the moment.

573
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 6: I think it was.

574
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: I think it was some drag related protests, but yeah,

575
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 3: there was this group of Nazis dressed in red and

576
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: black doing Nazi shit, And when you looked at any

577
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: of the videos on Twitter, you saw hundreds of replies

578
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: from people with blue check marks just calling them Feds,

579
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 3: saying oh, Wow, look at all these Feds. Well, oh,

580
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: I can't believe the FEDS are so busy today. Blah

581
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: blah blah blah blah. You know, it's it's like the

582
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: one hundred person NPC meme with them all wearing the

583
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: blue check mark on the forehead saying it's the FEDS

584
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 3: just because it's it's once we get to the point

585
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: where we have more Nazis doing mass shootings again, the

586
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: same way like there was an influx between like twenty

587
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: seventeen to twenty nineteen than twenty twenty, there was kind

588
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 3: of a dip because all all crime kind of had

589
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: a dip. As we're gonna go into the next next

590
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 3: election cycle, as things are gonna start looping again, when

591
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: more and more Nazis start doing shit, just how there's

592
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: gonna be a bigger swath of the population who just

593
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 3: denies that's what's happening, and that is gonna make make

594
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: the problem of Nazis probably a bit harder to deal with.

595
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 3: I mean, there's there will still be anti fascists doing

596
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: their work to like docs and I D people and

597
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 3: and and and all that stuff, but the amount of

598
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: like visibility and the amount of traction that that this

599
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: level of reality denial is getting around, like militant in

600
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 3: neo Nazism and around Nazi killings, will be a kind

601
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: of a new thing to navigate, or not a new thing,

602
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: but like it's a the problem will be bigger than

603
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 3: what it used to be.

604
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of note one thing on a

605
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: on the other side of the ideological spectrum and uh

606
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: and and not to equate the two. But there has

607
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: been something kind of concerning that I've been seeing crop

608
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: up in liberal circles. You may have noticed, kind of

609
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: as a response to all of the mass shootings and

610
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: the generally consistent Republican line that there's nothing to do

611
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: except for be shittier to marginalize people. That that there's

612
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: been kind of this like focus in a lot of

613
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: mainstream liberal media on articles and the idea that you

614
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: should spread pictures of victims of shootings, and a focus

615
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: on the amount of damage that like a weapon like

616
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: an AR fifteen does to a human body. People can

617
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: have their own opinion on like whether or not this

618
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: is a helpful idea, but I have noticed in sort

619
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: of arguments I've been having with people a troubling trend,

620
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: which is when I talk about the importance of doing

621
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: stuff like taking stop the bleed training, carrying things like tourniquets.

622
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: I've gotten responses from a couple of people that are

623
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: like AR fifteens are so powerful the wounds are not survivable,

624
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: there's no point in doing this. That is not the case.

625
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: I have known dozens of people who have been shot

626
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: by AR fifteens, in some cases in AR style weapons,

627
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: in some cases multiple times, and larger weapons, and lived.

628
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: It is always worthwhile to have stopped the bleed training

629
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: and to carry equipment. If you hear anyone saying that,

630
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: please please correct them, Because whatever you think about gun control,

631
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: it is very important for people to know how to

632
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: deal with those kind of injuries, and it is important

633
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: in the immediate wake of an attack. One of the

634
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: things that was really unsettling is in the immediate way

635
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: of the Allen attack, after the shooter was down, there

636
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: was a couple of people who ran in to try

637
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: to provide life saving aid, and a bunch more who

638
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: took photos of the people who had been wounded and killed.

639
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: And it's possible that if more of the people taking

640
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: photos had gotten in an attempted to provide aid. Some

641
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: of the people who were injured might have survived, no

642
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: way to know, but always worth having that training. That's

643
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: just something I've noticed. Not to put it in the

644
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: same moral universe as trying to pretend your calls for

645
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: violence aren't calls for violence, but it is something that

646
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: concerned me and that people should maybe keep an eye on.

647
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I that was the case with the

648
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: Rittenhouse shootings. There was someone who basically had most of

649
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: their arm, yeah, blown off, but they did not die. Yeah,

650
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: So yeah, that is that is not true. And I've

651
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: watched a lot of the Rittenhouse footage and yeah, it is.

652
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 7: It is.

653
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: It is nasty. Yeah, but no, that is that is

654
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: a good thing to note.

655
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and also like.

656
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: On just a fundamental human level, like do do not

657
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 2: let yourself be consumed by the algorithm so much that

658
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: your first reaction to seeing someone get shot is you

659
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 2: try to film them, Like, yeah, we need to be

660
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: better than this, Like we have watched people die because

661
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: of this, Like like this, this is not a thing

662
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: as society that we can continue to be doing. Like

663
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: we simply cannot. We simply have to act and not

664
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 2: like become part of a sort of like mass media

665
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: spectacle instead of doing something.

666
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the footage of things is not going to change it,

667
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: especially with mass shootings. Footage and mass shootings usually actually

668
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 3: make the problem worse, and it's mostly used by people

669
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 3: who want to be mass shooters.

670
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I that may be a conversation we should, uh,

671
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: we should expand on it a later date. But you know,

672
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: don't don't let the bastards grind you down. Take a

673
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: stop the bleed course, you know, bring a tourniquet with

674
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: you out in the world. These are these are action

675
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: items that that that you can do that might in

676
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: fact help. So that's going to be it for us today.

677
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: It could happen here until next time, you know, keep

678
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: your head on this wivel.

679
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 8: Hello and welcome to another episode of It Could Happen

680
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 8: Here with me Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. Today,

681
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 8: I'm joined by Mia and today we're going to be

682
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 8: discussing another leading figure in the black radical tradition. If

683
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 8: you've heard the episodes on Quasi Ba Lagoon, you know

684
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 8: exactly what's up today. I've got the first part in

685
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 8: a two parter about Lorenzo kembo Iven and his vision

686
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 8: for revolution. Even's life has been one of resistance, resilience,

687
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 8: and radicalism. These contributions the anarchist movement, especially his work

688
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 8: on black anarchism, even to this day with his ongoing podcast,

689
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 8: continues to inspire activists around the world, myself included. So, Mia,

690
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 8: what are your what has your experience been with the

691
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 8: Rinzo Combo Irvin and his work.

692
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've read Anarchist in the Black Revolution, which

693
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 2: I really enjoy. I've listened to not all of but

694
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 2: like a pretty good amount of the Black Autonomy podcasts

695
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 2: that he runs, which is great, and so yeah, I'm

696
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: excited to talk about him.

697
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 8: Awesome. Yeah, he really is a fantastic and necessary figure

698
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 8: in this you know, broader movement, especially now for those

699
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 8: who don't know, the Rnzo Combo Irven was one of

700
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 8: the earliest founders of the black anarchist movement, which was

701
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 8: a distinct tradition born out of the history of black

702
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 8: radical politics in nineteen seventies. Black anarchism is not just

703
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 8: h we are thrown on an adjective onto anarchism. There's

704
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 8: a history behind it and there's a distinct tradition that

705
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 8: accompanies it. There were anarchists historically who were black, who

706
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,959
Speaker 8: were not part of this black anarchist tradition, and well,

707
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 8: of course black anarchists who weren't part of those earlier movements.

708
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 8: I think one of the most notable sort of go

709
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 8: to examples is Lucy Parsons was a very important anarchist

710
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 8: figure in the sort of the peak of the movement,

711
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 8: at least in the US in the twentieth century. But

712
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 8: although she was Black, her contributions don't necessarily contribute to

713
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 8: that sort of black anarchist lineage. So let's get into

714
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 8: earthIn right. Nineteen forty seven. By the time he was twelve,

715
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 8: Lorenzo Kobertuvin had joined the NAACP youth group and participated

716
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 8: in sit in protests that helped to end racial segregation

717
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 8: in Chattanooga, Tennessee. He was later drafted during the Vietnam

718
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 8: War and served in the army for two years, where

719
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 8: he eventually became an anti war activist. And in nineteen

720
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 8: twenty seven, when he was twenty years old, after his

721
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 8: involvement with the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee, Lorentzo kumbo

722
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 8: Uven joined the Black Panther Party as a rank and

723
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 8: file member. Two years later, he hijacked a plane and

724
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 8: fled to Cuba. While he was on the run for

725
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 8: attempting to kill a Ku Klux Klan member, But instead

726
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 8: of receiving support as some black radicals had received when

727
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 8: fleeing to Cuba, Cune authorities had jailed him, deported him,

728
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 8: deported him to Czechoslovakia, and eventually he escaped from Czechoslovakia

729
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 8: to each before eventually being caught, tortured, and brought back

730
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 8: to the United States, and then after being drugged during

731
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 8: his trial, he was handled two life sentences by an

732
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 8: all white jury in a redneck town. Tough prick as

733
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 8: you can imagine, Irvin had very quickly become disillusioned with

734
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 8: the dictatorship he had experienced in Cuba and the socialist

735
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 8: countries he visited, and during his time in prison, he

736
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 8: reflected on his life and found an alternative method for

737
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 8: black revolution, distinct from the form he found the Panther Party.

738
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 8: Now even wasn't the first person to criticize the Black

739
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 8: Panther Party's style of organization. One of the splits between

740
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 8: the East Coast and West Coast Panthers was on what

741
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 8: form of organization they would take. I discussed that a

742
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 8: bit in the Quasi Battagoon episodes, and then of course

743
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 8: there were other figures who came out to the Black

744
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 8: Panther Party with their own criticisms, including if I remember correctly,

745
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 8: Asata Shakur and also Don Cox. While in prison, Iuven,

746
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 8: had you gone receiving anarchist literature? And he also signed

747
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 8: to pick up what another Black anarchist who he was

748
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 8: briefly imprisoned with at the time, Martin Sostra, was putting down.

749
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 8: Martin Sostra is what I believe one of the first

750
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 8: major black anarchist figures in that sort of nineteen sixties

751
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 8: nineteen seventies period, and so him being in prison with

752
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 8: Sostra at the same time sort of really helped even

753
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 8: to understand exactly what anarchism meant and how it would

754
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,240
Speaker 8: applied to a specifically black experience in black context. Ivin

755
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 8: was also inspired by Peter Kropotkin, Everyone's favorite Russian and

756
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 8: former prince, and ultimately even adopted the ideology of anarchist.

757
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 8: His case was soon taken up by the anarchist Black

758
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 8: Cross and the Helper Prisoner Oppose Torture Organizing Committee, which

759
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 8: led to an international campaign the petition for his release.

760
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 8: Evan's writings on Anarchism of the Black Revolution, which was

761
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 8: written in prison, gained immense popularity, and so he was

762
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 8: released in nineteen eighty three after serving nearly fifteen years.

763
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 8: In his book, he emphasized that anarchism is the most democratic,

764
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 8: effective and radical way to obtain freedom for the black community,

765
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 8: but the black people must be free to design their

766
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 8: movements without the approval of North American anarchists. Do you

767
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 8: believe that black people and other people of color would

768
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 8: be the backbone of the American anarchist movement of the future.

769
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 8: The first edition of Anarchism the Black Revolution was published

770
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 8: quite a while ago. It's still the addition that is

771
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 8: available on the Anarchist Library you can check out, but

772
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 8: it is I would consider it to be a sort

773
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 8: of a rough early edition. There are certainly some typos

774
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 8: and editorial mistakes and stuff that were addressed in the

775
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 8: most recent edition that was published and I believe twenty

776
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 8: twenty one and edited with some help from William C. Anderson,

777
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 8: who also is another leading figure in the modern black

778
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 8: anarchist movement, having written works like Nation or nomap Irvin

779
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 8: took and still takes a principal stance against capitalism, white supremacy, imperialism,

780
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 8: colonial oppression, patriarchy, queerphobia, and the state, recognizing the government

781
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 8: is one of the worst forms of modern oppression. His

782
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 8: emphasis on intersectionality has played a crucial role in the

783
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 8: shift away from class exclusive analysis in the American anarchist movement,

784
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 8: and today he remains active, as I said recording a

785
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 8: podcast called Black Autonomy with his wife and fellow forma

786
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 8: panther Jonina. So today we drawn from Even's book Actism

787
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 8: of the Black Revolution to delve into his picture of

788
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 8: revolution in North America and beyond. I think one of

789
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 8: the strongest strategies for the development of the Black Revolution

790
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 8: would be a Black labor federation. As Even discusseds in

791
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 8: his book, black labor has been a critical economic fact

792
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 8: in America since the country's inception, and it was through

793
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 8: the toil of black labor, beginning with slave labor in

794
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 8: the Old South and extending to share cropping, farm labor

795
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 8: and migration to the North for factory jobs, that the

796
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 8: foundations of the American nation were built. However, as is obvious,

797
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 8: black workers have been routinely excluded from that share of

798
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 8: the wealth of the American nation and routinely excluded from

799
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 8: the trade unions that struggled to regain some of that wealth, like,

800
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 8: for example, the American Federation of Labor, the Dash Colored

801
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 8: Labor Union, the National Colored Farmers Alliance, and the Brotherhood

802
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 8: of Sleeping Car Porters, as well as the League of

803
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 8: Black Revolutionary Workers, and other unions and associations of black

804
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 8: workers were then formed to represent these interests that were

805
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 8: being left out and not at all brought to the table.

806
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 8: Black workers were very much instrumental in the Congress of

807
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 8: Industrial Organizations, campaign of strikes and sit downs and other

808
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 8: protests to organize unskilled industrial workers, but they didn't get

809
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 8: to enjoy the benefits of their pivotal role. Most of

810
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 8: the Black population is working class, and black industrial and

811
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 8: clerical workers still hold significant potential power and the struggle

812
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 8: for black liberation. A lot of these workers have already

813
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 8: been organized and to defend their righted work and advocate

814
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 8: for their interests, even if union leadership is conservative, even

815
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 8: if they weren't challenge management, even if they're not even unionized.

816
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 8: We see as well in modern times a lot of

817
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 8: black figures stepping up to organize these unions. The first

818
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 8: union to be organized in Amazon was spearheaded by a

819
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 8: black worker, Chris Smaws, and workers black workers across history

820
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 8: have already been creating union caucuses and creating independently of

821
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 8: unions were necessary to push for their specific interests because,

822
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 8: I mean, the unity of black workers and the rest

823
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 8: of the working class is essential to combat and overthrow capitalism.

824
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 8: But there needs to be a recognition within that unity

825
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 8: of distinctly black interests and a distinctly black history, which

826
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 8: is why black caucuses within unions are able to take

827
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 8: up demand to the struggles that unions have turned the

828
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 8: blind eye to, such as discriminatory hiring, firing, and promotion practices,

829
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 8: and you know, lack of equal treatment. I think these

830
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 8: caucuses could even go further as even also argues to

831
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 8: democratize their unions, to eliminate some of these discriminatory practices,

832
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 8: and to really push for the radical fighting spirit that

833
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 8: has been lost in some of these sort of reformist

834
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 8: union structures. The black aucuss and also the workers more

835
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 8: generally should be stepping up to demand democratic control the union,

836
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 8: to demand equal treatments, demand of firmative action, demand full

837
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 8: employment demand, shorter work weeks, to demand, the right to strike,

838
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 8: the demand to social security, and an employment compensation demand

839
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 8: for liverable minimum wages. Of course, all of these accomplishments

840
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 8: or demands already sort of short term benefits that would

841
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 8: still retain a COPITALSS structure, but they're necessary nonetheless, especially

842
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 8: when unionize the is are an all time low historically.

843
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,959
Speaker 8: One of the things that even also advocates for, which

844
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 8: I'll get into more in the future, is this idea

845
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 8: of unions advocating for companies to put aside funds specifically

846
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 8: for programs to rebuild in a city communities and provide

847
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 8: work for black workers and your stocks, about worker self

848
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 8: management of industry by factory committees and workers councils, and

849
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 8: elections by workers themselves. But the main idea that he's

850
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 8: pushing for, at least in terms of the black working

851
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 8: class and black labor, is, as I mentioned, a Black

852
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 8: labor federation, both in a national level and on an

853
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 8: international level, a national workers association with serves both a

854
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 8: revolutionary union movement for a place organizing and a mass

855
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 8: social movement for community organizing, combining tactics from both the

856
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 8: labor and the black liberation movements to multiply their numbers

857
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 8: and build their strength and tilling the unions into these

858
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 8: militant class struggle instruments. An example that we can see

859
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 8: in history during the late nineteen sixties was the League

860
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 8: of Revolutionary Black Workers, which is organizing black auto workers

861
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 8: out of the out of the Dodge Revolutionary Movement. Sorry

862
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 8: to me, let me rephrase that. One example of that

863
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 8: type of organization could be found in the League of

864
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 8: Revolutionary Black Workers, which organized black auto workers during the

865
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 8: late nineteen sixties. The League had grown out of a

866
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 8: major affiliate of it out of a major affiliate, the

867
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 8: Dodge Revolutionary Movement, and it was a black labor federation

868
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 8: that existed as an organized alternative to the United Auto Workers,

869
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 8: which have been excluding black workers. League was also a

870
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 8: very major force on the streets, as it was in

871
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 8: addition to organizing its workplaces organized in college campuses and

872
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 8: black inner city areas. But its potential was stifled, unfortunately

873
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 8: by political faction fights among leadership. There was a division

874
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 8: between those who wanted to take a more Marxist Leninist

875
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 8: approach to the organization compared to those who want to

876
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 8: take more democratic approach the organization. There was a lack

877
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 8: of a solid enough organized based in the factories, there

878
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 8: was significant company and United Auto Workers, and state repression.

879
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 8: Of course, organized racism, a lack of cooperation among white workers,

880
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 8: and other reasons that eventually led to the league splitting

881
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 8: into mutually hostile factions that would die after less than

882
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 8: five years of existence. Classic organized and history story. I

883
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 8: don't think that you should look at these failures and

884
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 8: use them as an opportunity to give up. I think

885
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 8: we look at these failures and we use them as

886
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 8: learning opportunities, use them as opportunities to recognize, oh, we

887
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 8: can do something like this, but not exactly like this.

888
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and make sure that Bob Avankian is never involved

889
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 2: at any point in the process.

890
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 8: Exactly exactly. I mean, we still need these sorts of

891
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:30,479
Speaker 8: labor organizations and associations and unions. We still need black

892
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 8: workers pay aheading these sort of organizations to organize other

893
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 8: black workers in their communities to support the strike. Sim

894
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 8: workplace organized. It will be necessary for significant changes, and

895
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 8: of course we need the groups we established to avoid

896
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 8: the pitfalls and ideological scruples of Marxism. Len this up.

897
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 8: But you're just the sort of American approach, because in

898
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 8: case those of you who don't know, I'm not living

899
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 8: in America, I'm not an American, which is why, and also

900
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 8: addresses and advocates for an international Black Labor Federation to

901
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 8: wield the collective power of black workers globally that have

902
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 8: been universally oppressed and exploited around the world as a

903
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 8: racial group, Black workers have been oppressed as workers and

904
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 8: as people, and this dual form for pressure is really

905
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 8: what emphasizes that need to organize for old rights and

906
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 8: our own liberation. In African and Caribbean countries, including trant Tobigo,

907
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 8: there are labor federations and labor unions, but a lot

908
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 8: of them are reformists, a lot of them are government control,

909
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 8: and there's a lack of militancy. There's a lot of

910
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 8: collaboration with the government and with companies they're supposed to

911
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 8: be organizing against. As it's necessary to have an organization

912
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 8: with an internationalist scope that is pushing for solidarity, that

913
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 8: is pushing for radical change. And so I think that's

914
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 8: that's the real strength of an international Black Labor Federation.

915
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 8: You know, that idea of increased solidarity across several countries,

916
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 8: uh the idea of strengthening our collective bargaining power and

917
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 8: ability to organize this better work and conditions. Of course,

918
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 8: we'd also have the benefit of shared resources and the

919
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 8: benefit of greater visibility to these issues that we are

920
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 8: facing in the workplace and in society. And then of

921
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 8: course there will also be the ability to exert using

922
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 8: that visibility and resources and solidarity to exert greater political influence. However,

923
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 8: you know, an international Black federation, we still struggle with

924
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 8: political barriers, particularly in countries that are actively hostile to

925
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 8: that sort of organizing. Of course, the power would be

926
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 8: will do everything in their power to keep such a

927
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 8: struggle from being able to attain and maintain any kind

928
00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 8: of momentum or power. The construs rains of time and

929
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 8: energy and resources and engagement also prevent such a federation

930
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 8: from gaining crown. But I still think of all those

931
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 8: are issues that we should keep in mind. If well developed,

932
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 8: I think that national, regional and international caucuses can do

933
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 8: a lot to implement significant changes. In fact, one strategy

934
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 8: that even advocates for is something that I believe an

935
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 8: international Black Labor federation or any kind of International Labor

936
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 8: Federation will be necessary to help to organize, and that

937
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 8: would be a general strike because the vast majority of

938
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 8: the Black community consists of working class people in the US,

939
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 8: because many of them are engaged in manufacturing and medical

940
00:53:55,080 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 8: service and communications and food production and retail, h a

941
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 8: lot of blue collar work that really makes the country

942
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 8: go around. It really makes them an essential component to

943
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 8: the Capital's economy and of the American economy. I think

944
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 8: it positions them as really really key players in any

945
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 8: sort of protest campaign that would involve first racism and

946
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 8: class oppression, and it could go even further into beyond

947
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 8: just stepping up and striking for demands in the workplace,

948
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 8: control over the workplace. It could also go step further

949
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 8: and accomplish it and accomplish in even more revolutionary goals.

950
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 8: And I would of course involve using tactics like industrial

951
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 8: sabotage and factory occupations and sit ins and slowdowns and

952
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 8: wildcat strikes and other work stoppages that would help to

953
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 8: reassuit our collective power. Of course, as I'm always really

954
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 8: careful to emphasize when I bring up general strikes, they're

955
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 8: not easy to organize. A friend of mine Alkie. He

956
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 8: has a video on his YouTube channel about general strikes

957
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 8: and how they work, and some of the history is

958
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 8: some past general strikes. So that's I think that's required

959
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 8: reading code good reading to definitely check out. But yeah,

960
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 8: general strikes are not easy to organize. They're not something

961
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 8: that you could just call for on Reddit or Twitter

962
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 8: or Facebook or whatever.

963
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 5: You know.

964
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 8: It takes serious community and workplace mobilization. It takes significant planning.

965
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 8: It takes strike committees and support committees because and even

966
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:48,399
Speaker 8: defense committees when employers maybe trying to retaliate against strike

967
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 8: cod workers or blacklist or fire workers.

968
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

969
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: And I would also say like something that I think people, okay,

970
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 2: there's not a delegate way to say this, Like, look,

971
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: if you're gonna be engaged in like a long term,

972
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 2: serious general strike, you're gonna have to do things like

973
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 2: you're gonna have to start seizing stuff, Like you're going

974
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: to have to start committing theft in order to make

975
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: sure that people can like eat, Yeah, exactly, Like you're

976
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: gonna have to start appropriating stuff.

977
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly. It's not just standing around in a picket line,

978
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 8: you know, Like the general strike is an extra extremely

979
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 8: involved and invested. You don't get usually you don't get

980
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 8: two chances to do a general strike, you know, like

981
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 8: you have that chance, and after that they're usually if

982
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 8: you feel you usually introduce legislation or put things in

983
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 8: place to ensure that something like that never happens again.

984
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, or you get like there was a thing that

985
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: used to happen back when, you know, back in like

986
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: the early nineteen hundreds of these, and a lot was

987
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 2: you would get these general strikes, but you know they

988
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,280
Speaker 2: would kind of they would be like like two days long.

989
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 2: And there's this great Melo testa quote from Oheen nineteen

990
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 2: twenty four, I think where he's talking about how he's

991
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 2: talking about the factory occupations that started in Italy in

992
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: the like during the two Red Years, and he has

993
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 2: this line that goes, general strikes a protests no longer

994
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: upset anyone, neither those who take part in them, nor

995
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 2: those against whom they are directed. If only the police

996
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: had the intelligence to avoid being provocative, they would pass

997
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 2: off as a public as any public holiday. One must

998
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 2: seek something else. We put forward an idea, the takeover of.

999
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 8: Factories exactly exactly like you have to step beyond or

1000
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 8: is this legal? It is this legal and looking too

1001
00:57:54,640 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 8: Oh what can we make possible? You know, yeah, I

1002
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 8: mean I don't mean to be flippant, you know, like

1003
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 8: it's difficult. It takes so much organization of a lot

1004
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 8: and coordination of a large group of people. There's always

1005
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 8: put the sea of scabs.

1006
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 5: You know.

1007
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 8: It could have significant consequences for workers who depend on

1008
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 8: their wages to survive and to support their families. It

1009
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 8: can have a lot of ripple effects, and it could

1010
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 8: also involve you know, workers end up going to jail

1011
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 8: or just losing their jobs. But still it's it's a

1012
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 8: powerful tool that if we can recognize, if we could

1013
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 8: start working towards if when people were calling for strikes

1014
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 8: back in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen,

1015
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 8: twenty nineteen and twenty twenty one and two, if all

1016
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 8: those years so we spent calling for general strikes actually

1017
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 8: more effort was being put in to actually put the

1018
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 8: foundation in place for general strike to occur, then twenty

1019
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 8: twenty three we would be prepared to support a general

1020
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 8: strike in a long term way, in a way that

1021
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 8: would actually signify, you know, revolutionary change in our lifetimes

1022
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 8: I mean they'll be discertened. Dear listener, They're still potential

1023
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 8: for such a thing to occur. It just takes preparation

1024
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 8: and organization. Speaking of things that take preparation organization, and

1025
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 8: one of Irven's tactics is a mass tax boycott. You know,

1026
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 8: people should refuse to pay any form of taxes to

1027
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 8: the government, be it federal, income, estate, or state taxes

1028
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 8: while they continue to be exploited. Because, as he would argue,

1029
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 8: you know, wealthy and their corporations paying next to no taxes,

1030
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 8: while the poor and workers be a brunch of taxation

1031
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 8: and do not receive any benefits in return. You know,

1032
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 8: all these taxes on income and goods and services, but

1033
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 8: communities are still suffering, and that money ends up going

1034
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 8: to fund the Pentagon and defense contractors and consultants who

1035
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 8: get to you know, loot the government for their own game.

1036
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 8: So part of a black radical movement or the Black revolutions,

1037
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 8: if an arguseful, is a mass tax resistance movement to

1038
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 8: boycott taxes, similar to the peace movements, war tax resistance,

1039
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 8: taking people all the taxes that would have gone into

1040
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 8: personal property, all the taxes that wo have been reaped

1041
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 8: from personal property and income tax and stocks and bonds,

1042
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:40,439
Speaker 8: and funneling that towards community development, find that towards going

1043
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 8: to projects and organizations. As with any evolution reaction, significant

1044
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 8: legal consequences would be involved in that. Of course, you know,

1045
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 8: I think such a tactic needs some serious mass support

1046
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 8: and backend behind it to succeed. And even then, I

1047
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 8: don't believe it should be the backboone of any movement.

1048
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 8: I think it's more so like an accessory and event

1049
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 8: of media rupture, a single tool in a broader arsenal,

1050
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 8: Like I don't think the entire movement should be built

1051
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 8: off of tax avoidance. They're just going to get a

1052
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 8: bunch of people throw into prison. They ask a lot

1053
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 8: more to it than that. I look at the sort

1054
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 8: of cost benefit analysis, like, yeah, it'll get a lot

1055
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 8: of federal attention, but if it's not properly implemented, I

1056
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 8: don't really see any immediate benefits for the long term

1057
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 8: goals of the movement. I mean, I could be wrong,

1058
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 8: but it's not a tactic that I would personally feelful

1059
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 8: unless such a struggle is already in existence and in

1060
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 8: its later stages another type of boycott that's even references is,

1061
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 8: of course the irregular, conventional, unconventional sort of boycotts used

1062
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 8: during the Civil Rights movement. A lot of black consumers

1063
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 8: with boycott, particular moochents public services refusing to treat with

1064
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 8: moochents who would allow for reach of discrimination and use

1065
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 8: that loss of revenue to force them to make concessions. Today,

1066
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 8: black consumers in the US spend hundreds of billions a

1067
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 8: year in the campus economy. Of course, not all of

1068
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 8: those consumers are workers, and all those workers are able

1069
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 8: to boycott. But I think boycotts are still a potential

1070
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 8: to the arsenal again to wage you know, warfare, economic

1071
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 8: warfare against the corporate structures. I mean it could be

1072
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 8: expanded from anything. It can be expanded to cover everything

1073
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 8: from specific products to entire industries. Right. Dr Martin Luther

1074
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 8: King Junior himself recognized the potential of a national black boycott.

1075
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 8: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior himself recognized the potential of

1076
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 8: a national black boycott for America's major corporations. Shortly after

1077
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 8: he was assassinated, he established such an initiative called Operation

1078
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 8: bread Basket, which aimed, among other things, to force corporations

1079
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 8: to pour money into national black community development projects for

1080
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 8: poor communities. I think, you know, podcasts have a way

1081
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 8: to put economic pressure, but they I also believe a

1082
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 8: little bit less effective in our modern globalized world due

1083
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 8: to the fact that you know, a lot of these

1084
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 8: companies are owned by the same like three corporations. They

1085
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 8: usually have ways to mitigate economic losses in one market

1086
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 8: by targeting other alternative markets. Or even if they experienced

1087
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,439
Speaker 8: a dip in demand in one sector, they may still

1088
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 8: enjoy demand in another sector and another part of the world.

1089
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 8: And on top of that, company is can of also

1090
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 8: use that it as an opportunity to sort of get

1091
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 8: people off the movement. For example, boycott is taking place,

1092
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 8: they could say, oh, you're trying to boycott, well, we

1093
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 8: just put a sale out fifty sixty percent of wild

1094
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 8: stocks last and then you have people sort of, you know,

1095
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 8: breaking off of the movement. And I mean, of course,

1096
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 8: not everybody will do that, some people are principled, but

1097
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 8: that is still a tactic that you see some companies

1098
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 8: using when they're starting to experience that sort of economic pressure,

1099
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 8: they try to fragment the movement quote unquote votes in

1100
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 8: with your wallet, even mass coordinated in my opinion, is

1101
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 8: limited in its ability to challenge the courses.

1102
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 6: Of oppression in equality.

1103
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 8: I would think it brings us any closer to anarchist

1104
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 8: I think it only weakens the current world. So I

1105
01:04:54,920 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 8: think it's another tactic that really cannot act alone. And

1106
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,479
Speaker 8: then we got another tool in Yos. Now we could

1107
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 8: call it a rent boycott. We can call it a

1108
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 8: rent strike. It's a way to achieve certain legislative changes,

1109
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 8: or so we to achieve certain more radical changes if

1110
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 8: you get into sort of occupation and squatn and that

1111
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 8: kind of thing. In Harlem, in New York City, rent

1112
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 8: boycotts were so successful the decreation of rent control legislation,

1113
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 8: which prevented evictions, unjustified price increases, and required reasonable upkeep

1114
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 8: by property owners and management companies. There is a track

1115
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 8: record of Rench strikes providing some benefits, you know, allowing

1116
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 8: tenants to negotiate with landlords and to bring some issues

1117
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 8: to light. And I could also bring about, of course,

1118
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 8: certain policy changes and push for or highlight further the

1119
01:05:55,440 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 8: need for affordable and accessible houses. But again, Rench strikes

1120
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 8: legally risky. They can also be difficult to coordinate, especially

1121
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 8: for those who are really kind of risk eviction. I mean,

1122
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 8: nobody can really risk eviction, right, But that's where the

1123
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 8: risk sort of comes in. And then if there's a

1124
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 8: lack of support, if the land world has significant resources

1125
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 8: behind them, there are also you know, ways that it

1126
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 8: could go wrong. I don't want to mislead like I

1127
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 8: want people to be aware of the reality of how

1128
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 8: difficult this sort of organized effort is. All these organizing

1129
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,439
Speaker 8: efforts are. It's not a walk in the park. It's

1130
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 8: not you know, like acts the end of Act three

1131
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 8: and some revolution story movie where the good guys are

1132
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 8: able to win with the power of friendship, with that

1133
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 8: kind of thing. It's tough work and we have to

1134
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 8: be aware of the risks even as we engage in

1135
01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 8: such actions. Even also advocates for you know, squatting in

1136
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 8: tandem with rent strikes. So, in addition to withholding rent

1137
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 8: payments from exploitsive landlords and banks, also movements to engage

1138
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 8: in urban squating, to seize housen to seize empty plots

1139
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 8: of land, to seize unoccupied and abandoned buildings, and to

1140
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 8: redirect payments that would have gone towards rent towards necessary

1141
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 8: repairs to improve living conditions and to claim our cities

1142
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 8: for ourselves. But again, while squating does provided immediate housing

1143
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 8: solution for those in need, while draws attentions the issue

1144
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 8: of hosting inequality, while creates a sense of collective ownership,

1145
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 8: and while it can help to improve all these neglected

1146
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 8: areas and urban environments, it's also legal cross involved in

1147
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:57,440
Speaker 8: effection and arrest. A lot of squatting conditions can be

1148
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 8: fairly unsafe, while unsanitary, particularly if a property is not

1149
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 8: up to a particular standard. And then of course squating

1150
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 8: is also sort of temporary as a solution. It doesn't

1151
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 8: really address the root courses of housing. It is really

1152
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 8: a precurious position to keep people in. And it's another

1153
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 8: case where without mass defense and support we got a

1154
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 8: mass movement backing it up, it's going to be very

1155
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 8: easy to dislodge any games that might be made in

1156
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 8: the short term. Family even also argues for the establishment

1157
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 8: of the commune as a staging ground for Black revolutionary struggle.

1158
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 8: The concept of the community is basically like a dual

1159
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 8: power structure, an institution meant to compete with government power,

1160
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 8: to preserve as a comment to government power in order

1161
01:08:53,720 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 8: to assert collective community power foreman and unify and various

1162
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 8: organizations as struggle taking control of existing communities and institutions

1163
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 8: and work at a fight against economic and political and

1164
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 8: cultural discrimination, expertiation and servitude in this capitalist society. And

1165
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 8: he goes in to talk about inner city communes as

1166
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 8: centers of black counterpower and social revolertionary culture to say,

1167
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 8: as sort of a living example of what revolution could

1168
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 8: look like. I think this is a case where at

1169
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 8: the time he didn't have the word for it, but

1170
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 8: we do now, and that would be prefigurative politics, the

1171
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 8: idea of you know, establishing these sort of institutions and

1172
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 8: the here and now that would be able to prefigure

1173
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,479
Speaker 8: the world that we want to see in the future.

1174
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 8: Another component of these sort of communes is to provide

1175
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 8: a count narrative to sort of black capitalism and responsibility politics.

1176
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 8: It gets pushed out as a dominant narrative within black

1177
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:11,560
Speaker 8: communities in the US. The commune and the Black communey specifically,

1178
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 8: you can say as a place for a new society

1179
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 8: and a new culture to emerge that rejects the internalization

1180
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 8: of oppression under this system. And so when you want

1181
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 8: to get into sort of how the sort of community

1182
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 8: be established, even talks about establishing community councils the world

1183
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 8: govern and even talks about establishing community councils to allow

1184
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 8: for collective governance and be composed of workers from various

1185
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 8: industries and neighborhoods and delegates to organized communities on a

1186
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:02,600
Speaker 8: block by block basis. He also emphasizes they need to

1187
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 8: reject black politicians, bureaucrats, and mayors from sort of co

1188
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:13,680
Speaker 8: opting these efforts and ensuring that the community on the

1189
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 8: ground actually retains control over the institutions that they establish

1190
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 8: and develop and take control over to ensure that the

1191
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 8: community's needs and desires are met. One example that he

1192
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,200
Speaker 8: uses is in the case of schools right where the

1193
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 8: community would organize parents, students, teachers, and community like to

1194
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 8: cooperatively administer the schools. I think we see a lot

1195
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 8: of efforts by right wing parents right now organize and

1196
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,240
Speaker 8: sort of run things in a lot of public schools,

1197
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 8: But that does mean it's similar efforts can't be taken

1198
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,640
Speaker 8: by radicals to push for the same. Of course, it

1199
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,760
Speaker 8: wouldn't be as easy because they aim to see the

1200
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 8: status school, whereas we aim to change things.

1201
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 2: I think it is sort of important to note too

1202
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 2: that it's like, it's not like this sort of like

1203
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 2: right wing school stuff came out of nowhere. Like part

1204
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 2: of the reason this was happening was that like there

1205
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 2: had been movements inside the like inside.

1206
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:33,480
Speaker 5: Sorry, let me if I say.

1207
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 2: There have been movements from teachers and from like inside

1208
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 2: the education system trying to sort of like, you know,

1209
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 2: we do things I teach black history, right, and you know,

1210
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 2: like part like these are these are things that like,

1211
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 2: these are kinds of movements that people really tend to

1212
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 2: ignore and really tend to sort of not think about

1213
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 2: the significance of. But yeah, I mean it's it's it's

1214
01:12:57,400 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 2: not like these sort of like right wing versions of this.

1215
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 5: Came out of know where.

1216
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 2: They were reaction to people, you know, doing a sort

1217
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:05,959
Speaker 2: of more moderate version of the strategy.

1218
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's true. That is true, And so now we

1219
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 8: have to push even harder to counter their counter efforts

1220
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 8: and really assuite that sort of transformation in the education

1221
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 8: space and beyond just the education space. What Even talks

1222
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 8: about is ensuring that these councils encompass a variety of organizations,

1223
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 8: not just blocking neighborhood communities, but also labor union, student groups,

1224
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:45,920
Speaker 8: social activist groups and even specialists you or single issue

1225
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 8: campaigns and issues. The idea is, of course, to continuously

1226
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 8: promote self rule, to continuously develop people's powers and drives

1227
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:02,440
Speaker 8: and consciousness towards liberation, and to continuously offer an alternative

1228
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 8: to this pervasive sense that all this is is all

1229
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 8: they can ever be. It's necessary to sort of incubate

1230
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 8: this sort of embryo of a revolutionary society, this micro

1231
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 8: cause of a new lifestyle, and to highlight the necessity

1232
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:30,640
Speaker 8: of struggle against you know, these systems. And when I

1233
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:36,560
Speaker 8: speak of consciousness, I'm also speaking of specifically Black consciousness.

1234
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 8: Speaking of consciousness rais and sessions to ensure that black history,

1235
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 8: black culture is accessible and available and understood by the

1236
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 8: black community. To ensure that newly liberates and like social

1237
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 8: ideas and values are distributed within the community, to ensure

1238
01:14:56,080 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 8: that counselinine therapy are available, rooted, and of course a

1239
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:06,440
Speaker 8: black revolutionary perspective tell people to realize that this disunity

1240
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 8: and distrust and violence and oppression, that because due to

1241
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:22,160
Speaker 8: this legacy end of this system does not have to

1242
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 8: continue to be so. But that's it for me and

1243
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:32,639
Speaker 8: for Irvin. For now you can join us for part

1244
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 8: two where we can dive into the day to day aspects.

1245
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:39,679
Speaker 8: So there's viable programs that Irvin describes to build black

1246
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 8: resilience in the air. And now if you're looking for

1247
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 8: me on the internet, you can find me on YouTube

1248
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 8: dot com slash andeurism and you can support on patuon

1249
01:15:49,560 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 8: dot com slash saying Peace. And welcome back to another

1250
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 8: episode of It Could Happen here with myself Andrew of

1251
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 8: the YouTube channel Andewism if you're joining us. From the

1252
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 8: previous episode, we touched on the life of Lorenzo Cambo

1253
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:28,479
Speaker 8: Irvin who he was as a leading figure in the

1254
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 8: black anarchist movement, how he ended up in that position,

1255
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 8: sort of his life story and how he ended up

1256
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,599
Speaker 8: writing Anarchism the Black Revolution and sort of breaking down

1257
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 8: that vision of a Black revolution, including tactics like communes, squats,

1258
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 8: French strikes, tax strikes, boycotts, general strikes, and of course

1259
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:57,360
Speaker 8: a Black labor federation. But that's not all that Uven

1260
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 8: has explored in his work, and today we're going to

1261
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 8: dive into his vision for survival programs, things to agitate

1262
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 8: for and actions the black community can take to survive

1263
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 8: under the current system now. Historically, black communities have been

1264
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 8: subjected to economic exploitation, with businesses and financial institutions often

1265
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 8: taken profits out of the community without investing in its

1266
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 8: growth and development, and this of course has led to disinvestment, poverty,

1267
01:17:26,479 --> 01:17:30,560
Speaker 8: lack of resources of community members, and of course persistent

1268
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 8: relative deprivation. So the demand for community control of businesses

1269
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:39,880
Speaker 8: and financial institutions that even outlines, is something that seeks

1270
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 8: to shift power and resources back into the hands of

1271
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 8: the community. By place and control in the hands community

1272
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 8: members provides an opportunity to build economic power and to

1273
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:56,800
Speaker 8: ensure that businesses and financial institutions work for communities rather

1274
01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:01,519
Speaker 8: than vice versa, because such institution and businesses would be

1275
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 8: under the control of the workers themselves. So in a

1276
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 8: cooperative model, members work together to achieve common goals and

1277
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 8: share the benefits and risks of a business equally. The

1278
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 8: covenant structure for cooperative typically involves board of directors who

1279
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 8: might elected by members to make strategic decisions on behalf

1280
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 8: of the cooperative, but there of course other ways of

1281
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:29,200
Speaker 8: organizer and including horizontal consensus. All members of a cooperative

1282
01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 8: have an equal say in these decisions, with each member

1283
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 8: typically having one food and the board of directors is

1284
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 8: meant to just be accountable to members and act in

1285
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:43,400
Speaker 8: the best interest of the cooperative. Now cooperatives already exist,

1286
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,439
Speaker 8: they operate in various industries, and they can operate in

1287
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 8: various industries including agriculture, retail, finance, housing, healthcare, and more.

1288
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 8: For example, in a cooperative agriculture model, farmers can prove

1289
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:01,160
Speaker 8: resources to purchas seeds, fertilizers, and equipment lower cost, and

1290
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:04,240
Speaker 8: then sell their crops collectively to increase bargaining power and

1291
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 8: reduce costs. In a retail cooperative, members can buy products

1292
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 8: at a discount and how a saying the type of

1293
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:14,040
Speaker 8: products offered, while in a financial cooperative, members can access

1294
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 8: banking services and share in the profits they're generated by

1295
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:22,559
Speaker 8: the cooperative. Cooperatives also often provide mutual aid and support

1296
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:26,520
Speaker 8: to their members, with surplus profits from the businesses reinvested

1297
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 8: either in the businesses or distributed as dividends to members,

1298
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 8: which ensures that the benefit to the business are shared

1299
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 8: equatively and members have a stake in the success of

1300
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 8: a cooperative. Like I mentioned, corporators already exist, which means

1301
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:42,600
Speaker 8: they are capable of operating within capitalism, but within a

1302
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 8: broader program of social revolution. They're meant to build our

1303
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:56,439
Speaker 8: alternative power in a dual power struggle to eventually enable

1304
01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:01,479
Speaker 8: us to assert our independent from this system as it will.

1305
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,000
Speaker 8: But even here now, it is necessary to survive under

1306
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 8: this system, and I think cooperatives offer a more humane

1307
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:14,960
Speaker 8: and more empowering model. Another example of that sort of

1308
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 8: cooperative structure could be found in mutual lead banking societies,

1309
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 8: again owned and controlled by the members, and are created

1310
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:31,240
Speaker 8: specifically to provide access to financial services and support to

1311
01:20:31,360 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 8: individuals and communities that have been traditionally excluded or marginalized

1312
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:40,759
Speaker 8: from a lot of traditional banking systems. So they function

1313
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 8: to provide low interest loans to members for various purposes

1314
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 8: including you know, starts and businesses, purchasing homes, covering unexpected expenses,

1315
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:52,360
Speaker 8: and members are required to you know, put in a

1316
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 8: certain amount each month to fund these sorts of loans,

1317
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 8: and in addition to providing financial services sort of societies

1318
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:07,759
Speaker 8: can also provide education and support, help with financial planning,

1319
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 8: help with budgeting, help with financial literacy to enable members

1320
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 8: to better survive within their current financial situation under capitalism.

1321
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:24,519
Speaker 8: And so that's one aspect of the survival program, right,

1322
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:30,040
Speaker 8: and emphasis on survival it existed now in this system.

1323
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,960
Speaker 8: So that's one aspect of pushing for community controller businesses

1324
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 8: and financial institutions and creating community cooperatives and mutual aid

1325
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 8: banking societies. Another aspect of that survival program that open

1326
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 8: outlines is achieving community controlled housing to help address is

1327
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 8: to use of gentrification, displacement, and lack of affordable housing

1328
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 8: through legal and legal means such as then strikes and demonstrations,

1329
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:01,400
Speaker 8: arn't actions, open squad in, drive landlords out and take

1330
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 8: over the property. Those are more precarious approaches, right, and

1331
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:07,479
Speaker 8: then they're also be above the board methods. I spoke

1332
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:11,280
Speaker 8: about those approaches. Some of those approaches in the first

1333
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:16,840
Speaker 8: part the quote unquote above the board methods would be

1334
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:22,520
Speaker 8: establishing things like community land trusts or colts. A CLT

1335
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:26,920
Speaker 8: is essentially a nonprofit organization that owns and manages land

1336
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,799
Speaker 8: for the benefit of a community. The CLT can acquire

1337
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:32,639
Speaker 8: land and then lease it to developers or residents who

1338
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:35,519
Speaker 8: agree to use the land for affordable house which allows

1339
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 8: them to retain control of the land and ensure there's

1340
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:42,040
Speaker 8: been used for their good rather than being solo off

1341
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 8: the private developers for the sake of profit. In a

1342
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:51,280
Speaker 8: situation under a CLT where a homeowner wants to sell

1343
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,080
Speaker 8: wants to move, they can only sell the building that

1344
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:57,200
Speaker 8: they occupy. They can't sell the land itself because the

1345
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:00,920
Speaker 8: community land Trust retains control of the land. The Community

1346
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 8: land Trust also retains the right of first refusal to

1347
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:07,280
Speaker 8: purchase the buildings, which basically means before you can try

1348
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:09,680
Speaker 8: and sell the building to anyone else, you have to

1349
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 8: give the Community land Trust, the community itself an opportunity

1350
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 8: to buy the building back, and that would enable them

1351
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:23,360
Speaker 8: to also make sure that people aren't coming into just

1352
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:27,360
Speaker 8: profit off of such affordable holes in and they're also

1353
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:30,280
Speaker 8: doing it so that the house in stay is affordable,

1354
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 8: so they can ensure that they can resell the building

1355
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 8: to somebody who's also seeking that, you know, affordable housing.

1356
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:42,000
Speaker 8: And by providing that sort of house in, community land

1357
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 8: trusts can stabilize communities and prevent displacement in the long term.

1358
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:53,880
Speaker 8: They can help to revitalize distress neighborhoods, and they can

1359
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 8: also invest into things like community facilities like pools, and

1360
01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 8: laundromats and gyms and that sort of thing. In terms

1361
01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 8: of how you actually create a colt, laws of course

1362
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 8: vary from place to place, but essentially you form a

1363
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:22,519
Speaker 8: nonprofit organization, obtain tax exam status, acquire the land either

1364
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:26,400
Speaker 8: through purchase or donation, and then begin developing affordable house

1365
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 8: or community facilities on the land. In addition to that,

1366
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 8: a community an trust would need to guidelines in place

1367
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 8: for leasing the land home owners and to maintain the

1368
01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:40,280
Speaker 8: affordability of the land over time. And of course, community

1369
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:43,200
Speaker 8: an trust requires a system of governance and decision making

1370
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 8: to engage in that sort of ongoing effort of involving

1371
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:52,599
Speaker 8: the residents themselves and ensuring that they are educated, and

1372
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:56,080
Speaker 8: how comuntland trusts work, and how this model could be

1373
01:24:56,120 --> 01:25:00,680
Speaker 8: expanded to other communities. For the start, abolition such a

1374
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 8: thing requires significant resources. Another approach to community controlled housing

1375
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:11,720
Speaker 8: that also takes some resources is through limited equity housing cooperatives.

1376
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:16,599
Speaker 8: So in this model, residents own and manage the house development.

1377
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:20,720
Speaker 8: Each have a same decision making process to run democratically.

1378
01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 8: They each have a share in the cooperative, which gives

1379
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 8: them the right to occupy a unit in development. The

1380
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 8: share price, however, is set at a fixed rate, which

1381
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 8: means the unit can only be sold back to the

1382
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 8: cooperative at the same price, which again helps to make

1383
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:44,599
Speaker 8: sure that the housing remains affordable in the long term. So,

1384
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 8: unlike with the community land trust where you own the

1385
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:54,840
Speaker 8: building but you don't own the land, in an LHC

1386
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 8: or limited equity housing cooperative, you don't own the building

1387
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:04,800
Speaker 8: or the land, You own a share and the cooperative

1388
01:26:05,240 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 8: owns the property itself. You're also required, of course, to

1389
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:12,479
Speaker 8: contribute a down payment and to pay monthly fees, which

1390
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:15,400
Speaker 8: helps to maintain and manage the property. You know, it's

1391
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:21,240
Speaker 8: difficult to organize things, as anyone with some experience organizing

1392
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:28,200
Speaker 8: can tell you, and something as high investment as housing

1393
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:32,759
Speaker 8: is no different, right. It's a challenge. It's a challenge

1394
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 8: in fundraising, it's a challenge in organizing people. It's a

1395
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:40,679
Speaker 8: challenge and insurance that such efforts are defended and able

1396
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:43,799
Speaker 8: to establish themselves in the long term. But it's still

1397
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 8: a promising model I believe for survival because of its

1398
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:51,720
Speaker 8: priority on community ownership and control. It really relieves that

1399
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:56,559
Speaker 8: one major stress in a lot of people's lives in

1400
01:26:56,640 --> 01:27:00,840
Speaker 8: terms of affordable housing. Of course, the long term ors

1401
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:04,679
Speaker 8: and should be decommodified entirely, but that is the future.

1402
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:09,519
Speaker 8: The survival program is for the heir now. Another aspect

1403
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:12,480
Speaker 8: of this fiber program that even talks about is food autonomy,

1404
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:18,240
Speaker 8: the establishments of black community controlled food systems to establish

1405
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 8: self sufficiency, to control the production, distribution of foods, and

1406
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:25,360
Speaker 8: should basic needs to met to ensure that Black communities

1407
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:27,960
Speaker 8: are no longer at the mouseea of food deserts and

1408
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:33,400
Speaker 8: other systemic barriers to accessing healthy, affordable food. By creating

1409
01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:39,040
Speaker 8: trucking networks and warehouses and community farms, farmers cooperatives, food cooperatives,

1410
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:43,719
Speaker 8: agricultural unions, and other collective associations, black communities can ensure

1411
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:48,519
Speaker 8: that healthy and essential foods are readily available. Rather than

1412
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 8: just treating the symptom, such institutions would treat the root

1413
01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 8: cause of food and security, which is a lack of

1414
01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 8: control over our food chains and food networks. So, for example,

1415
01:28:05,040 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 8: a trucking network would be used to transport food from

1416
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 8: communal farms to warehouses which could serve as clecterly owned

1417
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:14,799
Speaker 8: distribution centers for the food in a sort of a

1418
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 8: library economy set in the waite houses can also save

1419
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:26,120
Speaker 8: us storage facilities for other non perishable food items, to

1420
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:31,800
Speaker 8: bank seeds to distribute those seeds and other items and

1421
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 8: tools to community gardens and food cooperatives, and such community

1422
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 8: gardens could be established on vacant lots, on rooftops and

1423
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 8: unused spaces within the city, particularly in areas where access

1424
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 8: to fresh produce is limited, and all these efforts would

1425
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:48,880
Speaker 8: involve members of the community who would be responsible for

1426
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:51,799
Speaker 8: each step in the process and ensuring that such things

1427
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:59,320
Speaker 8: are accessible equatively. Food cooperatives within communities could for example,

1428
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,400
Speaker 8: be organized through sort of a share structure where each

1429
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:06,720
Speaker 8: household or each individual has a share in the cooperative

1430
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:09,439
Speaker 8: that entitles them to sit down to food each week.

1431
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 8: Or you could have in a sort of a library

1432
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:14,680
Speaker 8: structure that a lot of different ways that you can organize it.

1433
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:21,559
Speaker 8: You could even have as well. Agricultural unions provide support

1434
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:27,320
Speaker 8: and training and education unsustainable farming practices, access to tools

1435
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 8: and equipment, financial systems for farmers in need. All these

1436
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:36,600
Speaker 8: efforts would establish the foundation necessary for food or autonomy

1437
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:42,720
Speaker 8: under this sort of survival program that Eve has developed,

1438
01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:49,880
Speaker 8: and as I mentioned in the previous episode, even also

1439
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:55,080
Speaker 8: talks about under the survival programs, developing autonomous education, ensuring

1440
01:29:55,120 --> 01:29:58,439
Speaker 8: the community has control over every aspect of the educational system,

1441
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:06,560
Speaker 8: from the curriculum, textbooks, to the hiring and training of teachers, administrators,

1442
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 8: And as I spoke about in the previous episode, you know,

1443
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 8: the same way the reactionary is fighting advocate for control

1444
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:15,880
Speaker 8: of educations, the same way that we can do the same.

1445
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:18,960
Speaker 8: It won't be as easy, but we have to counter

1446
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 8: their efforts because they've already been countering hours the minimal

1447
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:26,799
Speaker 8: gains we've made, and for example, ensuring that an accurate

1448
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 8: account of history is told in schools is already being

1449
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 8: fought against, so we need to go even further. Community

1450
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 8: controlled schools would not only reflect community values, culture and history.

1451
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:49,520
Speaker 8: Not only would they be designed to meet the specific

1452
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:52,360
Speaker 8: needs of the children within them. Not only do they

1453
01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 8: provide us safe and a nutrient environment, encourage creativity, critical thinking,

1454
01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:04,799
Speaker 8: and problem solving skills, but they would also provide a space,

1455
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 8: an additional space for the development of people's powers and

1456
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:16,200
Speaker 8: drives and consciousness towards liberation at any age. I mean,

1457
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:19,559
Speaker 8: in addition to primary and secondary education, Woven also talks

1458
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:27,520
Speaker 8: about free higher education programs, remedial training programs, reading programs,

1459
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:32,120
Speaker 8: trade programs, all these things to help develop people's skills

1460
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:38,400
Speaker 8: and education knowledge that would helped equip them to address social, political,

1461
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 8: and economic issues. If it also calls for a system

1462
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:48,840
Speaker 8: of community based self defense to defend ourselves against various

1463
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:53,759
Speaker 8: forms of violence, including police brutality, heat crimes, and vigilanty attacks,

1464
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 8: without relying on government or law enforcement agencies to defend

1465
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 8: or set else, they had several components to this. Of course,

1466
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:07,960
Speaker 8: you'll involved organizing and mobilizing community members to participate in

1467
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:12,400
Speaker 8: self defense training programs. It would involve weapons training, It

1468
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:16,720
Speaker 8: would involve tactics for de escalation. It would involve a

1469
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:23,720
Speaker 8: network that can coordate responses to incidents of violence, establishing

1470
01:32:23,720 --> 01:32:30,640
Speaker 8: community channels to quickly disseminate information, enabling restorative and transformative

1471
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:34,759
Speaker 8: justice practices to be included to keep the state out

1472
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:40,559
Speaker 8: of resolving the conflicts between people in communities. And then,

1473
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:44,240
Speaker 8: of course, unlike a lot of these law enforcement systems

1474
01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:48,599
Speaker 8: and structures, a community based self defense program or system

1475
01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 8: would also be involved in the prevention of such incidents

1476
01:32:54,040 --> 01:32:57,080
Speaker 8: of violence and harm and conflict from recurrent. It will

1477
01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:02,479
Speaker 8: be involved in continuously evaluating interchange in circumstances, to analyze

1478
01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:06,759
Speaker 8: in the patterns of violence and gaps that are taking

1479
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:10,800
Speaker 8: place in training or in resources, and to continuously refine

1480
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:19,439
Speaker 8: tactics and strategies and approaches to see to the long

1481
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:23,599
Speaker 8: term healing of the communities and the interruption of cycles

1482
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 8: of violence and generational trauma in the long term. Another

1483
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:35,679
Speaker 8: component of these survival programs would involve medical training, large

1484
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:40,120
Speaker 8: scale medical training programs in black communities providing individuals with

1485
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:44,080
Speaker 8: the knowledge and skills needed to understand and address health issues.

1486
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:48,200
Speaker 8: Black communities, especially those from low income backgrounds in the US,

1487
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:54,000
Speaker 8: often face significant barriers to access in quality healthcare. It's

1488
01:33:54,080 --> 01:33:56,880
Speaker 8: due to systemic racism and oppression. So it's due to

1489
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 8: inaccessibility and an affordability of healthcare just generally, and also

1490
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:12,880
Speaker 8: the quality and resources af felable within certain communities specifically,

1491
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 8: and also the ways that health outcomes are worse if

1492
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 8: you are black. Black mothers are, or rather the black

1493
01:34:26,439 --> 01:34:32,280
Speaker 8: maternal death rate is one particularly heavy example of these

1494
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:35,600
Speaker 8: sorts of disparities. And so that's why we need community

1495
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:39,599
Speaker 8: based medical clinics and training programs and workshops and seminars

1496
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:44,679
Speaker 8: led by black medical professionals, public health experts, public health experts,

1497
01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 8: and community organizers who are versed in the social sernants

1498
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:52,280
Speaker 8: of health and impacts of systemic racism and health outcomes,

1499
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:59,479
Speaker 8: and invested in seeing that changed. Such a program would

1500
01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:05,120
Speaker 8: involve medical including dental training, empower individuals to provide basic

1501
01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:08,400
Speaker 8: health care services and support their communities. You would involve

1502
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:12,080
Speaker 8: trading in first aid. You involve healthcare screenings, health education,

1503
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:17,320
Speaker 8: because underrepresentation in health matters, lack of education in one's

1504
01:35:17,360 --> 01:35:20,840
Speaker 8: own personal health matters, and two people losing their lives

1505
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:23,800
Speaker 8: as a result of that racial blind spot and as

1506
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:27,720
Speaker 8: a result of that inequality, and so survival program in

1507
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:35,320
Speaker 8: the here and now needs to account for that. Even

1508
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:39,040
Speaker 8: also calls for the release of black political prisoners as

1509
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,280
Speaker 8: part of a broader abolitionist struggle rooted in the recognition

1510
01:35:42,320 --> 01:35:44,599
Speaker 8: that the criminal justice system in the US has been

1511
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:47,360
Speaker 8: used as a tool for political repression against black people

1512
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:51,439
Speaker 8: and the martialized communities. You're speaking here from experience, of course,

1513
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:54,120
Speaker 8: he wrote this when he was in prison. Mass and

1514
01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:58,559
Speaker 8: conceration of black people has been deliberate and systemic effort

1515
01:35:58,600 --> 01:36:02,040
Speaker 8: to silence and dissent, to silence dissent and maintain the

1516
01:36:02,040 --> 01:36:09,200
Speaker 8: statusco of white supremacy and white supremacist capitalism. Here and now,

1517
01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:12,760
Speaker 8: survival programs should be involved in the release of black

1518
01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 8: political prisoners, especially to investigate and review the cases of

1519
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:19,240
Speaker 8: those who have been unjustly imprisoned, to address the use

1520
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:23,960
Speaker 8: of cost confessions, falsified evidence, and other forms of prosecutorial

1521
01:36:24,120 --> 01:36:27,360
Speaker 8: misconduct there has led to wrongful convictions that has led

1522
01:36:27,400 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 8: to people rotten away in jail cells for decades with

1523
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:35,639
Speaker 8: no sort of justice. I mean, these people are often

1524
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:39,160
Speaker 8: so of the most committed and dedicated revolutionaries and their

1525
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:42,519
Speaker 8: continued imprisonment has been a craving justice. Some of them

1526
01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 8: unfortunately passed before they're even released if they have released

1527
01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 8: a tool and by demanding their release, by fighting for

1528
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:53,160
Speaker 8: their freedom, by writing to them and supporting them even now,

1529
01:36:53,360 --> 01:36:55,840
Speaker 8: by showing our solidarity with those who have sacrificed so

1530
01:36:55,920 --> 01:36:58,479
Speaker 8: much in the struggle for liberation and ensuring that their

1531
01:36:58,560 --> 01:37:04,240
Speaker 8: voices are heard, not only can we aid in their survival,

1532
01:37:04,760 --> 01:37:09,920
Speaker 8: but we can also aid in our own. Lastly, even

1533
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:18,479
Speaker 8: calls for the ever contentious big payback reparations. You have

1534
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:20,880
Speaker 8: then challenges us to build a mass movement in our

1535
01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:24,200
Speaker 8: communities to compel the government and the rich to provide

1536
01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:27,920
Speaker 8: the means for our community is redevelopment at the centuries

1537
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:31,520
Speaker 8: of slavery and of abuse, and of robbery and of discrimination,

1538
01:37:32,240 --> 01:37:35,879
Speaker 8: demanding those reparations in the form of community development funds

1539
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,640
Speaker 8: to be placed in credit unions, cooperatives and not the

1540
01:37:39,680 --> 01:37:42,280
Speaker 8: mutual aid institutions in the black community, so we can

1541
01:37:42,280 --> 01:37:46,519
Speaker 8: start to obtaining some measure of economic self sufficiency. But

1542
01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:49,200
Speaker 8: of course from the question of who pays, to how

1543
01:37:49,240 --> 01:37:51,200
Speaker 8: we force them to pay, to how we determine how

1544
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:54,160
Speaker 8: much they pay, how that pay is distributed or implemented,

1545
01:37:54,439 --> 01:37:56,559
Speaker 8: if the pay is even in cash. You know, there's

1546
01:37:56,560 --> 01:37:59,839
Speaker 8: a lot of tensions surrounding that topic and pro reparation.

1547
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:02,520
Speaker 8: It's not just for Black America, with the entire diaspora.

1548
01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 8: I mean, I've seen the US made sure to get

1549
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,280
Speaker 8: reparations for itself and its allies after World War Two.

1550
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:12,240
Speaker 8: The victims of various atrustees have received reparations for the injustices.

1551
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:17,960
Speaker 8: But as soon as Black people demand their do demand

1552
01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:20,759
Speaker 8: their do everybody, you know, they want us to forget

1553
01:38:20,760 --> 01:38:27,000
Speaker 8: about it. But yeah, everybody knows, and I think part

1554
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 8: of that is because everybody knows that they can't actually

1555
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 8: afford it. You know, if we were paid exactly what

1556
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:36,640
Speaker 8: we would do, they would not have the wealth that

1557
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:41,559
Speaker 8: they have. And so my stance has always been I

1558
01:38:41,560 --> 01:38:44,760
Speaker 8: don't think reparations will come by ballot. I don't want

1559
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:49,160
Speaker 8: it to come by ballot. I don't want to receive

1560
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:52,719
Speaker 8: some check in the mail it says, okay, now be happy,

1561
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:58,160
Speaker 8: get over it, but let me not get myself in

1562
01:38:58,200 --> 01:39:01,040
Speaker 8: any more trouble. Even at that, I don't think it

1563
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:02,120
Speaker 8: will come by a ballot.

1564
01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:05,519
Speaker 5: There's a lot of things that's reasonable.

1565
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:11,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, I've already said so much in these past two episodes.

1566
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:14,280
Speaker 8: I mean, there are a lot of arms to this

1567
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:17,240
Speaker 8: survival program. Then bring things to a close a bit.

1568
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:19,439
Speaker 8: There as a lot of areas of struggle that we

1569
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:22,759
Speaker 8: can pick up, a lot of things that can be applied.

1570
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:24,400
Speaker 8: Of course, most of these things I think could be

1571
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:27,280
Speaker 8: applied beyond the black community. But there's a reason that

1572
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 8: the black community specifically was Urban's focus, because of his

1573
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:34,920
Speaker 8: life experience, because of the need to address black communities

1574
01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 8: specifically in uh in an anarchist text, something that was

1575
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:46,200
Speaker 8: really lacking prior to the resurgence of you know, the

1576
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 8: black radical tradition, the black anarchist specific tradition in the seventies.

1577
01:39:52,280 --> 01:39:57,040
Speaker 8: So it's necessary. But I just hope, you know, people

1578
01:39:57,040 --> 01:40:01,560
Speaker 8: who are listening who on that black didn't just you know,

1579
01:40:02,360 --> 01:40:05,960
Speaker 8: click off, that I still hear that these ideas and stuff,

1580
01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:11,479
Speaker 8: these programs are applicable more broadly. I hope that I

1581
01:40:11,479 --> 01:40:15,360
Speaker 8: can see and contribute to these changes in my lifetime,

1582
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:23,719
Speaker 8: and as I consistently borrow from Ashanti Alston, another black

1583
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:27,760
Speaker 8: anarchist figure who I actually hope at some point we

1584
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:30,679
Speaker 8: could bring on or power to all the people.

1585
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:31,799
Speaker 5: Peace.

1586
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:50,120
Speaker 7: Hello podcast fans, and welcome to it could happen here

1587
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:54,320
Speaker 7: A podcast Today is hosted by me James Down and

1588
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:58,720
Speaker 7: Mia Wong Hi May. Hello, Hi, So what we're going

1589
01:40:58,760 --> 01:41:01,639
Speaker 7: to talk about today is situation on the border. We're

1590
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:05,559
Speaker 7: working on a scripted episode which will take away because

1591
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:07,720
Speaker 7: they always do, and you know, if we want that

1592
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:10,320
Speaker 7: to be nice and sort of polished for youse. But

1593
01:41:11,040 --> 01:41:13,640
Speaker 7: I did want to update everyone because I think that

1594
01:41:13,720 --> 01:41:16,880
Speaker 7: what's happening it has a sense of urgency to it,

1595
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:19,120
Speaker 7: and certainly like some of the mutual aid requests have

1596
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:22,920
Speaker 7: a real sense of urgency to them, and folks who

1597
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:26,120
Speaker 7: follow me on Twitter dot com and ll have noticed that,

1598
01:41:26,120 --> 01:41:30,080
Speaker 7: like in between the ship posts, I've been down at

1599
01:41:30,080 --> 01:41:33,160
Speaker 7: the US Mexico border for most of the tail end

1600
01:41:33,160 --> 01:41:37,160
Speaker 7: of last week and the start of this week, sort

1601
01:41:37,160 --> 01:41:40,439
Speaker 7: of depicting what's going on there, along with my friend

1602
01:41:40,560 --> 01:41:43,559
Speaker 7: Joe Joe Ariyama's who's a freelancer who we're going to

1603
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:46,200
Speaker 7: be working with on the scripted series. And people can

1604
01:41:46,240 --> 01:41:49,400
Speaker 7: find Joe at Joe or Ori e photo on Twitter.

1605
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 7: Joe's got some really good photos if you want to

1606
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:55,040
Speaker 7: see kind of what's going on. But the longer than

1607
01:41:55,040 --> 01:41:58,439
Speaker 7: the short of it is that title forty two ended

1608
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 7: on well to begin with, exactly the moment that it

1609
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:05,720
Speaker 7: ended was a subject of some contention, right, we knew

1610
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:07,760
Speaker 7: it was going to end on the eleventh of May.

1611
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 7: Title thirty two, if folks don't remember, is a emergency

1612
01:42:13,280 --> 01:42:15,840
Speaker 7: public health measure. It's part of the United States Public

1613
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:20,040
Speaker 7: Health Law, the United States Code Public Health something something

1614
01:42:20,479 --> 01:42:26,360
Speaker 7: then allows border patrol to expel people from the United

1615
01:42:26,400 --> 01:42:32,320
Speaker 7: States without giving them their due process, their asylum here. Basically,

1616
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:36,920
Speaker 7: they bounce them straight back to Mexico, right, And this

1617
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:40,840
Speaker 7: has been in place since March of twenty twenty. We

1618
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:43,960
Speaker 7: now know that the Trump administration pressured the CDC, So

1619
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 7: in theory it was it came through the CDC, right

1620
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:49,760
Speaker 7: the Center for Disease Control under pressure from Drug administration,

1621
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:56,439
Speaker 7: direct pressure from Pence, and Stephen Miller was yeah.

1622
01:42:56,360 --> 01:43:01,000
Speaker 2: Probably this was a Stephen Miller like, yeah, supremacy special.

1623
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:07,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, bubblehead looking racist motherfucker has once again done something terrible.

1624
01:43:08,080 --> 01:43:10,080
Speaker 7: Not that some of his policies. As we'll get onto

1625
01:43:10,120 --> 01:43:14,880
Speaker 7: this in descripted episode, the Biden administration has like copy

1626
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,360
Speaker 7: pasted some steep, some straight up Stephen Miller stuff in

1627
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:22,519
Speaker 7: its transit bounds and is absolutely liable for I don't

1628
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:24,639
Speaker 7: want to use the word chaos at our border because

1629
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 7: that plays into this Fox use narrative. There is a

1630
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:32,160
Speaker 7: very concerted plan to make people suffer more than is

1631
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:35,639
Speaker 7: necessary at our border, and it would have been very

1632
01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:40,400
Speaker 7: easy to avoid this. So title forty two basically, there

1633
01:43:40,400 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 7: are no consequences for crossing, but it's also very hard

1634
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:49,440
Speaker 7: to get asylum. The CBP officer can like spontaneously decide

1635
01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:53,439
Speaker 7: to give you your rights. Basically, if you're like, come on, bro,

1636
01:43:53,720 --> 01:43:56,080
Speaker 7: I'm going to get killed if I go home, then

1637
01:43:56,120 --> 01:43:58,599
Speaker 7: that person can decide to allow you to be processed

1638
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:01,640
Speaker 7: for asylum, which is what a lot of the Ukrainian

1639
01:44:02,040 --> 01:44:04,680
Speaker 7: folks got surprise, surprise.

1640
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:06,000
Speaker 2: And I feel like we should we should also mention

1641
01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:10,960
Speaker 2: that under like multiple legal frameworks, you have the right

1642
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:15,320
Speaker 2: to request asylum. This is this is something that supposedly

1643
01:44:15,439 --> 01:44:19,639
Speaker 2: is inviolable, Like you have the right as a human

1644
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:21,439
Speaker 2: being to request asylum in a country.

1645
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 7: Yes, and it doesn't matter where you've been before, and

1646
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:26,519
Speaker 7: it doesn't matter how you got there, and you don't

1647
01:44:26,520 --> 01:44:28,519
Speaker 7: have to do it at a port of entry. It

1648
01:44:28,560 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 7: doesn't matter how you enter the country or where you

1649
01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:34,759
Speaker 7: entered the country. Yes, yeah, and yeah, under multiple different

1650
01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:37,760
Speaker 7: international frameworks you have the right to do this. But

1651
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:40,639
Speaker 7: the USA has been denying that to people for three

1652
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:43,559
Speaker 7: and a eight years now, right, three years and stuff

1653
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:44,599
Speaker 7: like that, and you know what I mean.

1654
01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:46,799
Speaker 2: I also could just want to briefly mention this because

1655
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:51,920
Speaker 2: I feel like there's this way in which people people

1656
01:44:51,960 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 2: people will talk about like one border regime and then

1657
01:44:55,160 --> 01:44:57,639
Speaker 2: never connect the dots between this one and the other ones.

1658
01:44:57,640 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 2: But like, for example, like this is something that happens

1659
01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:03,360
Speaker 2: all over the world world. Yes, I mean like part

1660
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:05,080
Speaker 2: part of like part of the sort of like crisis

1661
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:07,720
Speaker 2: that is going on into Dan right now is about

1662
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:09,320
Speaker 2: like a ship ton of money. But the end this

1663
01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:11,479
Speaker 2: is actually happened in Libya too. It's the Italian government

1664
01:45:11,479 --> 01:45:15,200
Speaker 2: paying the Libyan and sort of Sudanese parabilitaries a ship

1665
01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:18,519
Speaker 2: ton of money to like keep refugees like basically like

1666
01:45:18,680 --> 01:45:22,000
Speaker 2: trap to something, to enslave them in camps, to cute

1667
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:25,480
Speaker 2: them from like getting to Italy to try to request asylum.

1668
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 2: So yeah, so this is a yeah, like Fredecks does

1669
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:30,800
Speaker 2: this like this, This is sort of like a global.

1670
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:32,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, terrible regime.

1671
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:39,519
Speaker 7: The border like industrial complex is every bit as bad,

1672
01:45:39,560 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 7: if not worse than the defense industrial complex. So we're

1673
01:45:42,400 --> 01:45:46,920
Speaker 7: more familiar with, like border policing is something that really

1674
01:45:47,120 --> 01:45:49,160
Speaker 7: came post nine to eleven, right with the creation of

1675
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:51,479
Speaker 7: DHS and the United States, but we have exported that

1676
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:55,320
Speaker 7: shit everywhere. And like our Border Patrol Agents r CBP

1677
01:45:55,479 --> 01:45:57,720
Speaker 7: has an office in lots of embassies or like they

1678
01:45:57,720 --> 01:46:01,479
Speaker 7: train Dominican border agents the border with Haiti, for instance,

1679
01:46:01,560 --> 01:46:04,920
Speaker 7: and are trained by our CBP people. CBP agents were

1680
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:10,400
Speaker 7: deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Yeah, this is a global thing. Yeah,

1681
01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:13,280
Speaker 7: And like where I guess where I am now, where

1682
01:46:13,280 --> 01:46:15,640
Speaker 7: I've been for a while, is the place where that

1683
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:19,679
Speaker 7: all began, right, and where we continue to see CBP

1684
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:22,800
Speaker 7: innovating new and exciting ways to fucking take some of

1685
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:25,880
Speaker 7: the most desperate people in the world and make them

1686
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:29,440
Speaker 7: suffer and spend a shit ton of money and preventing

1687
01:46:29,479 --> 01:46:32,799
Speaker 7: them from accessing their legal right to asylum or detaining

1688
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:37,479
Speaker 7: them while they do it. And so what has happened

1689
01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:39,479
Speaker 7: is so Title forty two was supposed to end on

1690
01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:41,120
Speaker 7: the eleventh of May, right, that was when the federal

1691
01:46:41,160 --> 01:46:43,080
Speaker 7: COVID emergency ended, So there was no reason for it

1692
01:46:43,120 --> 01:46:45,640
Speaker 7: to exist anymore. There wasn't a reason for it to

1693
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:46,559
Speaker 7: exist to begin with.

1694
01:46:46,760 --> 01:46:50,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, any like, don't don't don't think too hard

1695
01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:52,400
Speaker 2: about the fact that like that was the last that

1696
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:54,960
Speaker 2: was basically the last COVID policy that was still in place.

1697
01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:57,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like there were not vaccine mandates for the people

1698
01:46:58,000 --> 01:47:00,719
Speaker 7: meeting the migrants at the fucking border, Yeah, right, Like.

1699
01:47:01,479 --> 01:47:04,040
Speaker 2: This was this was this was never about public health,

1700
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:06,840
Speaker 2: Like no, you know, I mean, and in so far

1701
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:10,479
Speaker 2: as you can extricate sort of like the sort of

1702
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 2: imperial estates public health measures from social cleansing stuff, which

1703
01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:18,960
Speaker 2: has been happening for generations and generations. But yeah, like

1704
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:21,200
Speaker 2: this was this was not about that, like this, Yeah,

1705
01:47:21,240 --> 01:47:22,479
Speaker 2: this was just an immigration ban.

1706
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:26,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it became a sort of albatross by an

1707
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:29,639
Speaker 7: administration who didn't want to be hit on border stuff.

1708
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:29,800
Speaker 5: Right.

1709
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 7: They didn't want to They didn't want to drop it

1710
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:34,320
Speaker 7: before the midterms. They initially band to drop it in

1711
01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:36,760
Speaker 7: December twenty twenty two, which is obviously right after the

1712
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:39,479
Speaker 7: mid terms. They didn't we here we are in May.

1713
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:42,720
Speaker 7: There was a complicated legal challenge, which there always is,

1714
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:45,760
Speaker 7: and it doesn't matter because here we are right and

1715
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:47,559
Speaker 7: it's supposed to drop in the to me, so we're

1716
01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:50,679
Speaker 7: all thinking, right, midnight on the tenth of May, we'll

1717
01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:53,479
Speaker 7: be out there. We'll see what goes down. They announced

1718
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:57,360
Speaker 7: the day before that it is dropping on midnight on

1719
01:47:57,439 --> 01:48:00,280
Speaker 7: the eleventh, So they're going to ring every minute knit

1720
01:48:00,560 --> 01:48:05,439
Speaker 7: out of it. And so in the days before, a

1721
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:09,320
Speaker 7: number of migrants have told me that they understood that

1722
01:48:09,360 --> 01:48:11,640
Speaker 7: they basically had to get across before the end of

1723
01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:14,639
Speaker 7: Title forty two, because it was their understanding that if

1724
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,960
Speaker 7: they crossed under Title eight they would be ejected, and

1725
01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:19,880
Speaker 7: they wouldn't be allowed to return for five years and

1726
01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 7: they would face felony charges. So they did this. I

1727
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:27,120
Speaker 7: don't quite know often these this information spreads about like

1728
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:30,200
Speaker 7: WhatsApp in camps, right, or sort of like like a

1729
01:48:30,240 --> 01:48:33,760
Speaker 7: game of Telephone in camps. So I don't quite know

1730
01:48:33,760 --> 01:48:36,000
Speaker 7: where this information came from, but it closely parallels something

1731
01:48:36,040 --> 01:48:38,559
Speaker 7: that majorcus Is, a Secretary of Home lanun Security, said

1732
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:43,000
Speaker 7: in press conference where he mischaracterized international immigration law. And

1733
01:48:43,040 --> 01:48:46,400
Speaker 7: he's done this multiple times. Right, He himself, someone who

1734
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:48,960
Speaker 7: is a migrant to this country who apparently family left

1735
01:48:48,960 --> 01:48:52,120
Speaker 7: Cuba when he was one year old, has just some

1736
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:56,800
Speaker 7: of the most dogshit statements on the record, and I've

1737
01:48:56,840 --> 01:49:00,400
Speaker 7: depicted some of those in the scripted episode. Folks up

1738
01:49:00,600 --> 01:49:02,439
Speaker 7: my piece I wrote for NBC a couple of years

1739
01:49:02,479 --> 01:49:05,800
Speaker 7: ago about the Biden administration's policy towards Haiti if they

1740
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:08,320
Speaker 7: they want to see more of the dogshit stuff that

1741
01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:13,040
Speaker 7: he and Biden have said. And so in the days

1742
01:49:13,120 --> 01:49:16,800
Speaker 7: before the end of Title forty two, a lot of

1743
01:49:16,800 --> 01:49:18,760
Speaker 7: folks started to try to cross right because of this

1744
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:24,000
Speaker 7: information that they had. They ended up at least where

1745
01:49:24,040 --> 01:49:27,240
Speaker 7: I am, which is in southern California, right, the sort

1746
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:30,440
Speaker 7: of extreme southwestern border in the United States, literally the

1747
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 7: end of the wall. Folks were crossing like around the

1748
01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:35,599
Speaker 7: end of the wall right at low tide and turning

1749
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:41,040
Speaker 7: themselves into border patrol asking to make their case for

1750
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:45,040
Speaker 7: their right to asylum. And I think sometimes when we

1751
01:49:45,080 --> 01:49:47,280
Speaker 7: think about migrants, you know, we made me think about

1752
01:49:47,320 --> 01:49:53,599
Speaker 7: people from South America or Central America, every single continent,

1753
01:49:54,640 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 7: maybe not any like Australasians, but like just in it.

1754
01:49:59,200 --> 01:50:01,840
Speaker 7: In a day at one camp, I spoke to someone

1755
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:04,519
Speaker 7: from Angola. I spoke to someone from Congo. I spoke

1756
01:50:04,560 --> 01:50:07,880
Speaker 7: to someone from Sudan. I spoke to a Kurdish guy.

1757
01:50:08,479 --> 01:50:13,720
Speaker 7: I spoke to people certainly from all over South America, Russians,

1758
01:50:14,280 --> 01:50:19,920
Speaker 7: Tagik people, Jamaican people, and like. For instance, just to

1759
01:50:19,920 --> 01:50:21,400
Speaker 7: give you a sense of like how global it is,

1760
01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 7: I spoke to a Jamaican lady who was caring for

1761
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 7: a sixteen or seventeen year old pair of Tagiq siblings

1762
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:30,720
Speaker 7: who didn't speak any of the relevant languages for communication

1763
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:32,880
Speaker 7: with border patroller with other people in the camp, so

1764
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:35,639
Speaker 7: she would use her phone to call their mother, who

1765
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:38,400
Speaker 7: spoke some English, give information to the mother who would

1766
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:42,639
Speaker 7: translate it. Back to these two young children, and all

1767
01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:44,840
Speaker 7: of these people had presented like there were a lot

1768
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:47,519
Speaker 7: of Afghan people too. Probably should have mentioned that up top,

1769
01:50:47,600 --> 01:50:49,880
Speaker 7: But these are the people who we fucking abandoned once

1770
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:53,559
Speaker 7: and now we're trapping, trapping them in between little fences.

1771
01:50:54,400 --> 01:50:56,759
Speaker 7: And it's hot in the day, right like I slept

1772
01:50:56,760 --> 01:50:58,639
Speaker 7: out in the desert last night and it was above

1773
01:50:58,680 --> 01:51:01,680
Speaker 7: one Hundred's not that hot in San Diego, but in

1774
01:51:01,680 --> 01:51:04,400
Speaker 7: her Cumber where they're also holding people, it's absolutely getting

1775
01:51:04,439 --> 01:51:06,639
Speaker 7: into triple digits every day, and it's cold at night,

1776
01:51:06,800 --> 01:51:13,320
Speaker 7: and it's a really inhospitable environment for people. So folks

1777
01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:15,599
Speaker 7: were held there, you know, up to a week in

1778
01:51:15,600 --> 01:51:22,000
Speaker 7: some cases, and are now I think being processed by

1779
01:51:22,000 --> 01:51:26,120
Speaker 7: a border patrol. There was a ruling by a Florida judge.

1780
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:28,680
Speaker 7: I'm not exactly clear on when because I was down

1781
01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:30,519
Speaker 7: at the border and my phone didn't work very well,

1782
01:51:31,240 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 7: but at some point right before Title forty two drop

1783
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:36,719
Speaker 7: that they could have been released on humanitarian parole, which

1784
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:39,439
Speaker 7: means in theory they have to be released with a

1785
01:51:39,479 --> 01:51:42,200
Speaker 7: court date, right with a court date to appear for

1786
01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:45,800
Speaker 7: their asylum hearing, which will slow down the process of

1787
01:51:46,200 --> 01:51:51,880
Speaker 7: releasing them, right, And so I've heard of court dates.

1788
01:51:51,920 --> 01:51:55,080
Speaker 7: I've heard of folks being released already kind of with

1789
01:51:55,240 --> 01:52:00,200
Speaker 7: court dates in twenty twenty seven, which this whole thing

1790
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:05,320
Speaker 7: has just been like a disaster in terms of the

1791
01:52:05,520 --> 01:52:09,000
Speaker 7: federal response, right like, and in just the cruelest possible way.

1792
01:52:10,080 --> 01:52:10,519
Speaker 3: It was.

1793
01:52:11,439 --> 01:52:14,519
Speaker 7: Everyone could see this coming, right that there will be

1794
01:52:14,600 --> 01:52:17,759
Speaker 7: more people trying to cross. There are sixteen thousand people

1795
01:52:18,280 --> 01:52:21,000
Speaker 7: give or take in Tijuana alone, So it's just across

1796
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:23,120
Speaker 7: from where I live, waiting to come to the United

1797
01:52:23,120 --> 01:52:25,400
Speaker 7: States because they've been denied that right for three years,

1798
01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:28,200
Speaker 7: because they need somewhere safe to go, and because they're

1799
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:33,160
Speaker 7: not safe there. And the best estimate we got for

1800
01:52:33,240 --> 01:52:35,160
Speaker 7: how many they could process from border patrol was two

1801
01:52:35,240 --> 01:52:39,040
Speaker 7: hundred a day at the Tijuana porta Ventry or Sunny

1802
01:52:39,040 --> 01:52:43,240
Speaker 7: Cedro port of entry, really, but we don't know. There's

1803
01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:45,080
Speaker 7: no clear I don't know how many people they're processing

1804
01:52:45,120 --> 01:52:48,800
Speaker 7: every day, right, But these people who do come in

1805
01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:50,240
Speaker 7: now have to have a hearing date before they can

1806
01:52:50,280 --> 01:52:53,360
Speaker 7: be released. When if they get through, So I spoke

1807
01:52:53,400 --> 01:52:57,240
Speaker 7: to a young man and his son who I'd spoken

1808
01:52:57,320 --> 01:53:02,800
Speaker 7: to at the border, and he had been released into

1809
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:06,120
Speaker 7: the United States where a charity in San Diego will

1810
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:10,240
Speaker 7: provide him with two nights, what like two nights of accommodation, right,

1811
01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:14,760
Speaker 7: and then it can't quite work out what then, like

1812
01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:17,360
Speaker 7: he's out on his own, you know, Like I guess

1813
01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:23,560
Speaker 7: we'll find out tonight. But he has to find a sponsor.

1814
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:26,240
Speaker 7: I don't quite understand how he was released without a sponsor,

1815
01:53:26,280 --> 01:53:29,120
Speaker 7: but it seems like the system is kind of bungling

1816
01:53:29,160 --> 01:53:32,639
Speaker 7: things up, and these folks have to fund their own

1817
01:53:32,720 --> 01:53:35,000
Speaker 7: flights to wherever it is. A sponsor is right, so

1818
01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:38,080
Speaker 7: they have family or community, they're having to work out

1819
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 7: how to get to that family and community, so be

1820
01:53:41,040 --> 01:53:45,559
Speaker 7: there the greyhound or a plane or a train. So

1821
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:53,000
Speaker 7: it all in all a giant classifuck with very human consequences.

1822
01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:58,440
Speaker 7: Like I can't stress enough how like every possible demographic

1823
01:53:58,479 --> 01:54:02,120
Speaker 7: is represented, old people, little tiny children, right, Like I

1824
01:54:02,160 --> 01:54:04,400
Speaker 7: was talking to a little Afga and girl, not really

1825
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:07,760
Speaker 7: talking to we don't share any languages, but I was

1826
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:11,240
Speaker 7: more just like making funny faces for a while and

1827
01:54:11,400 --> 01:54:12,760
Speaker 7: sort of pointing at things.

1828
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:13,000
Speaker 4: And.

1829
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:16,760
Speaker 7: Like it just breaks my heart that there are little

1830
01:54:16,840 --> 01:54:21,320
Speaker 7: children who like especially you know, she's a little girl,

1831
01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:23,280
Speaker 7: she's from Afghanistan. We told her shit ton of lies

1832
01:54:23,280 --> 01:54:26,400
Speaker 7: about Afghan women to justify twenty years of killing people,

1833
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:30,439
Speaker 7: of certain people making money from killing people, and like

1834
01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:35,520
Speaker 7: this was supposedly they're like canard was that this was

1835
01:54:35,560 --> 01:54:38,520
Speaker 7: for Afghan girls and women, Right, And here's an Afghan

1836
01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:44,240
Speaker 7: girl sleeping in the fucking dirt, like twenty twenty minutes

1837
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:47,840
Speaker 7: from where I live. And I can't even give this

1838
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:51,760
Speaker 7: kid like hot meal because I can't fit it through

1839
01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:56,000
Speaker 7: the bars of the fence. Like everything that goes across

1840
01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:59,160
Speaker 7: to these people has to go through the bars of

1841
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:03,520
Speaker 7: the fence. Right, someone worked out that pizza, pizza could

1842
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:06,240
Speaker 7: fit through because flat right, people have been getting pizza.

1843
01:55:06,320 --> 01:55:09,080
Speaker 7: But other than that, they're getting you know, bottles of water,

1844
01:55:09,120 --> 01:55:13,560
Speaker 7: granola bars, you know things that fit through a fence,

1845
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:17,520
Speaker 7: beef jerky. And they've been there for days in some cases.

1846
01:55:17,560 --> 01:55:20,640
Speaker 7: And that's a camp that's relatively accessible, right, I can

1847
01:55:20,680 --> 01:55:22,760
Speaker 7: pull off the interstate, drive down a dirt road and

1848
01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 7: be there in like I say, twenty minutes. The camps

1849
01:55:26,720 --> 01:55:29,640
Speaker 7: are less accessible. We've heard the conditions are much worse.

1850
01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:33,120
Speaker 7: A couple of Jamaican guys told me that there was

1851
01:55:33,160 --> 01:55:35,280
Speaker 7: another camp that we we tried to get access to it,

1852
01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:39,000
Speaker 7: weren't able to get access to that was further west

1853
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:41,440
Speaker 7: from where we were, where people were hungry. They're getting

1854
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:45,680
Speaker 7: this is all just from that source. I have reached

1855
01:55:45,720 --> 01:55:47,800
Speaker 7: out a border patrol, but as of today, they haven't

1856
01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:51,320
Speaker 7: got back to me, saying that they were getting a

1857
01:55:51,320 --> 01:55:54,400
Speaker 7: bottle of water and a granola bar every day, and

1858
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:57,200
Speaker 7: that like some of these other folks had taken it

1859
01:55:57,280 --> 01:55:58,960
Speaker 7: upon themselves to like walk over there to try and

1860
01:55:58,960 --> 01:56:00,880
Speaker 7: get them food, right, people who already not in the

1861
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:04,000
Speaker 7: great situation themselves, and they kept asking why couldn't we

1862
01:56:04,040 --> 01:56:06,640
Speaker 7: go there, Why couldn't we help them? Like it was

1863
01:56:06,760 --> 01:56:08,360
Speaker 7: very admirable right to see folks who are in a

1864
01:56:08,360 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 7: pretty bad way be like, hey, these people need help

1865
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:15,280
Speaker 7: more than we do. So, yeah, that's a situation. I

1866
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:20,480
Speaker 7: think we should take a break for advertising then sorry,

1867
01:56:20,520 --> 01:56:23,320
Speaker 7: I ye, yeah, hopefully not for a drone or some shit.

1868
01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:27,600
Speaker 7: All right, we're back, and this is another happy and

1869
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:30,440
Speaker 7: exciting episode in which I tell you things that will

1870
01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 7: brighten your day. So something I wanted to talk about

1871
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:38,520
Speaker 7: because I think it's important is the mutual aid response

1872
01:56:38,600 --> 01:56:44,160
Speaker 7: to this, and it's been really really impressive, you know,

1873
01:56:45,520 --> 01:56:47,360
Speaker 7: I live in a place where the Democrats are absolute

1874
01:56:47,400 --> 01:56:52,480
Speaker 7: dog shit. Well we'll do It's America, right, but like

1875
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:56,080
Speaker 7: just the particularly cringe like cast real liberalism of San

1876
01:56:56,120 --> 01:56:58,640
Speaker 7: Diego Democrats is like as always on display.

1877
01:56:58,680 --> 01:56:58,800
Speaker 3: Right.

1878
01:56:58,800 --> 01:57:02,800
Speaker 7: I saw one of them tweeting today how CBS, DHS

1879
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:05,120
Speaker 7: and CBP are doing a great job and keeping us safe,

1880
01:57:05,200 --> 01:57:11,040
Speaker 7: and like my like it makes me want to say

1881
01:57:11,120 --> 01:57:15,280
Speaker 7: things I shouldn't say on the podcast, I guess. But

1882
01:57:15,320 --> 01:57:20,480
Speaker 7: what that means is that, like, our government isn't going

1883
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:23,520
Speaker 7: to do shit, right, Like, it is entirely on us

1884
01:57:23,680 --> 01:57:25,720
Speaker 7: to look after each other. And people have done that.

1885
01:57:27,120 --> 01:57:31,760
Speaker 7: The groups like American Friends Service Committee, which is a

1886
01:57:31,760 --> 01:57:33,920
Speaker 7: great organization which has really good stuff on the boarder,

1887
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:36,360
Speaker 7: have been down there every single day, right, Like there

1888
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:38,080
Speaker 7: have been days when I've left at one am there's

1889
01:57:38,080 --> 01:57:43,240
Speaker 7: still someone there. They've been giving people water, giving people food.

1890
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:46,480
Speaker 7: A huge need that people have is to charge their phones.

1891
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:50,040
Speaker 7: And the way that migrants interact with CBP, at least

1892
01:57:50,040 --> 01:57:52,080
Speaker 7: in theory, the way you get an asylum appointment is

1893
01:57:52,080 --> 01:57:55,640
Speaker 7: booking it through an app called CBP one. We've talked

1894
01:57:55,680 --> 01:57:59,720
Speaker 7: about this on the podcast before, but CBP one is terrible.

1895
01:57:59,800 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 7: It is a terrible app that doesn't work. And that's

1896
01:58:04,680 --> 01:58:08,720
Speaker 7: for people who have phones and Wi Fi. Right, if

1897
01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:12,920
Speaker 7: you are stuck in between two fences and a dusty

1898
01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:14,400
Speaker 7: piece of ground, how the hell are you supposed to

1899
01:58:14,480 --> 01:58:17,440
Speaker 7: charge your phone? You don't have Wi Fi, right, you

1900
01:58:17,480 --> 01:58:20,000
Speaker 7: may not have a data plan that works in that area.

1901
01:58:20,120 --> 01:58:24,480
Speaker 7: So a huge unmet need was charging charging phone. So

1902
01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:27,520
Speaker 7: we were able to get some donations from the team

1903
01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:30,440
Speaker 7: and buy a big charger. Other folks turned up with charges.

1904
01:58:31,800 --> 01:58:34,800
Speaker 7: Even all the news orgs I see to include, like

1905
01:58:34,840 --> 01:58:37,480
Speaker 7: like Fox National weren't there, which is a good thing,

1906
01:58:38,600 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 7: but like we could talk about that actually as well.

1907
01:58:41,360 --> 01:58:43,960
Speaker 7: My goods will specifically ask which news network you're with,

1908
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 7: which I think is that. I think that's good. I

1909
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:51,360
Speaker 7: think it's good they tell Fox News to fuck off, because, yeah,

1910
01:58:51,600 --> 01:58:54,400
Speaker 7: someone who participates in your dehumanization doesn't also deserve to

1911
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:58,360
Speaker 7: make money from your trauma. And so every news network

1912
01:58:58,520 --> 01:59:01,040
Speaker 7: that was there, right or the called folks from San

1913
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:04,120
Speaker 7: Diego were just constantly shuttling back and forth to their bands,

1914
01:59:04,160 --> 01:59:07,440
Speaker 7: charging phones constantly, constantly, constantly, and it became a bit

1915
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:11,640
Speaker 7: of a cluster because obviously there's literally just hundreds of

1916
01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:15,120
Speaker 7: people in this small area, dozens of hands reaching to

1917
01:59:15,120 --> 01:59:17,440
Speaker 7: a defense, Charge my phone? Can I have my phone back?

1918
01:59:17,520 --> 01:59:19,800
Speaker 7: Charge my phone? And in the English and Spanish and

1919
01:59:19,840 --> 01:59:26,280
Speaker 7: French and command Gye and Vietnamese and all these other languages, right,

1920
01:59:26,360 --> 01:59:31,000
Speaker 7: So it was very hard to organize that. So folks

1921
01:59:31,040 --> 01:59:34,240
Speaker 7: came down, Folks from San Diego, from different sort of

1922
01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:38,560
Speaker 7: mutual aid groups came down and they organized the system. Right.

1923
01:59:38,560 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 7: They got Painter's tape, the names of the people on

1924
01:59:40,760 --> 01:59:43,880
Speaker 7: the back of the phone. We had this huge ash

1925
01:59:43,920 --> 01:59:46,240
Speaker 7: battery that we were able to get and that they

1926
01:59:46,280 --> 01:59:48,760
Speaker 7: were able to charge people's phones, get them their phones

1927
01:59:48,760 --> 01:59:53,200
Speaker 7: back to them. And that is a crucial thing, right

1928
01:59:53,240 --> 01:59:55,120
Speaker 7: in that scenario. Not only is it your only way

1929
01:59:55,120 --> 01:59:57,200
Speaker 7: to communicate with border patrol, it's your only way to

1930
01:59:57,240 --> 01:59:58,360
Speaker 7: communicate with your family.

1931
01:59:59,160 --> 01:59:59,280
Speaker 5: Right.

1932
01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:02,040
Speaker 7: Like one guy had lost his phone, and so I

1933
02:00:02,120 --> 02:00:03,840
Speaker 7: just bought him a burner phone or you know, one

1934
02:00:03,880 --> 02:00:07,800
Speaker 7: of those warm artphones so that he could call his

1935
02:00:07,840 --> 02:00:11,120
Speaker 7: family because the family didn't know where he was. Right

1936
02:00:11,440 --> 02:00:14,000
Speaker 7: last they'd heard he was in Mexico or maybe even

1937
02:00:14,040 --> 02:00:18,880
Speaker 7: further south. And so the phones are super important. Other

1938
02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:21,840
Speaker 7: mutual ad groups have been getting blankets, right, And I

1939
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:24,760
Speaker 7: saw an Afghan family turn up and had they had

1940
02:00:24,800 --> 02:00:27,960
Speaker 7: crayons for the Afghan kids who were there, right, and

1941
02:00:28,000 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 7: like coloring books and things for children to do, because

1942
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:33,800
Speaker 7: it's probably boring being a kid, and it's probably scary

1943
02:00:33,840 --> 02:00:36,680
Speaker 7: being a kid, where like every day men with guns

1944
02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:38,760
Speaker 7: and camouflage gear turn up and they speak a language

1945
02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:41,200
Speaker 7: you don't understand, and then you don't know what they say,

1946
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:42,080
Speaker 7: and then you stay there.

1947
02:00:42,400 --> 02:00:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to kind of just there are

1948
02:00:45,600 --> 02:00:48,600
Speaker 2: lots of things that could get called camps that are

1949
02:00:49,440 --> 02:00:55,080
Speaker 2: like not camps, right, Like this is like this this

1950
02:00:55,160 --> 02:00:56,920
Speaker 2: is not a camp in the sense of like there

1951
02:00:56,920 --> 02:00:59,440
Speaker 2: are buildings that you go into or even like there

1952
02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:04,080
Speaker 2: are ten it's just like, oh yeah, no, yeah, I

1953
02:01:04,080 --> 02:01:04,680
Speaker 2: think that's.

1954
02:01:04,480 --> 02:01:07,280
Speaker 7: A very good I think that I haven't mentioned, thank you.

1955
02:01:07,560 --> 02:01:07,800
Speaker 5: Yes.

1956
02:01:07,880 --> 02:01:10,840
Speaker 7: This is people lying on the dirt. Occasionally, they have

1957
02:01:10,880 --> 02:01:14,120
Speaker 7: a my last space blanket. Occasionally they have a top.

1958
02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:17,520
Speaker 7: If they want to make any form of shelter they

1959
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:19,160
Speaker 7: have to use the only thing they have to use

1960
02:01:19,240 --> 02:01:21,520
Speaker 7: is the wall itself. Right, So up against the wall,

1961
02:01:21,560 --> 02:01:24,280
Speaker 7: people have made like a lean to kind of situation

1962
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:28,200
Speaker 7: with the top, right, But no, this is by no

1963
02:01:28,360 --> 02:01:32,680
Speaker 7: means suitable shelter. Literally, people are lying on the dirt.

1964
02:01:32,720 --> 02:01:35,839
Speaker 5: Like it's just a fucking cage like in a desert.

1965
02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:39,400
Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's it's

1966
02:01:39,400 --> 02:01:41,920
Speaker 2: the kind of thing that like, like you it's the

1967
02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:43,680
Speaker 2: kind of thing you would put it in a Poclyst movement.

1968
02:01:43,680 --> 02:01:45,440
Speaker 5: People will be like, oh, no, one would ever do that. Shit.

1969
02:01:45,440 --> 02:01:48,880
Speaker 2: It's like no, no, Like this is just sort of yeah,

1970
02:01:49,120 --> 02:01:50,600
Speaker 2: this is what US border policy is.

1971
02:01:50,760 --> 02:01:55,280
Speaker 5: It's these like just these open air cages.

1972
02:01:56,160 --> 02:01:58,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's you wouldn't like, you know, I go to

1973
02:01:58,600 --> 02:02:00,520
Speaker 7: the zoo in San Diego and the animals much better

1974
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:04,440
Speaker 7: conditions than that. There's no running water. There was one

1975
02:02:05,080 --> 02:02:10,520
Speaker 7: porterloo toilet for five hundred people. Yeah, it's terrible. It

1976
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:13,880
Speaker 7: is awful. It's little. It's people wrapping their babies in

1977
02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:16,200
Speaker 7: my love blankets and trying to get them to sleep

1978
02:02:16,240 --> 02:02:21,520
Speaker 7: at night, you know. And that's the same as several

1979
02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:23,880
Speaker 7: places up and down the border. Right they're starting to

1980
02:02:23,880 --> 02:02:29,200
Speaker 7: clear them out now, So sort of Tuesday Monday, So

1981
02:02:29,840 --> 02:02:32,520
Speaker 7: some people got there a week ago, I think, and

1982
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:36,440
Speaker 7: so they've been staying there for a long time. And yeah,

1983
02:02:36,480 --> 02:02:39,960
Speaker 7: like it's no point does there seem to have been

1984
02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 7: any consideration for even giving people shade or shelter or like, Yeah,

1985
02:02:45,960 --> 02:02:49,720
Speaker 7: the very basics, and like I should reinforce it. In

1986
02:02:49,760 --> 02:02:52,880
Speaker 7: twenty eighteen, when Trump blocked a large group of migrants

1987
02:02:52,880 --> 02:02:56,200
Speaker 7: from entering the United States, the government of Mexico did

1988
02:02:56,240 --> 02:02:59,360
Speaker 7: considerably better than this. It was by no means a

1989
02:02:59,400 --> 02:03:04,000
Speaker 7: good situation for those children at all, but they did

1990
02:03:04,040 --> 02:03:08,520
Speaker 7: better than this. Which it's aventally extremely low bar to clear,

1991
02:03:08,560 --> 02:03:11,280
Speaker 7: but we have failed to clear it completely as a country.

1992
02:03:11,400 --> 02:03:13,960
Speaker 7: And that's kind of to our eternal shame, I think.

1993
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think and everything worth emphasizing about this

1994
02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:21,360
Speaker 2: is that it hasn't always been like this. There's there's

1995
02:03:21,400 --> 02:03:23,400
Speaker 2: this sort of image that's been constructed that this is

1996
02:03:23,440 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 2: always what the US border has been. No, I mean

1997
02:03:25,600 --> 02:03:27,840
Speaker 2: it's not like it's not it's not like American border

1998
02:03:27,880 --> 02:03:29,480
Speaker 2: policy has always been like good.

1999
02:03:30,240 --> 02:03:33,120
Speaker 5: But I mean, like in my lifetime, it wasn't likely.

2000
02:03:33,200 --> 02:03:36,400
Speaker 7: Yes, in the mid nineties there were four thousand border

2001
02:03:36,400 --> 02:03:39,920
Speaker 7: patrol agents. Yeah, it's increased by a factor of ten,

2002
02:03:39,960 --> 02:03:41,440
Speaker 7: and its budget probably by more than that.

2003
02:03:42,320 --> 02:03:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know the consequences of this is just

2004
02:03:48,040 --> 02:03:50,440
Speaker 2: basically in order to appease a bunch of just sort

2005
02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:57,440
Speaker 2: of like fucking like turbo racist baked dipshits like who

2006
02:03:57,480 --> 02:04:00,160
Speaker 2: live in the suburbs and you know, have no have

2007
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:03,080
Speaker 2: like never experienced a single hardship and their entire lives

2008
02:04:03,560 --> 02:04:06,560
Speaker 2: like fucking like untold numbers of people are put through

2009
02:04:06,680 --> 02:04:12,040
Speaker 2: just in human suffering and for fucking nothing, just just

2010
02:04:12,160 --> 02:04:16,720
Speaker 2: like for for nothing, for like just dog shit electoral pandering.

2011
02:04:17,200 --> 02:04:21,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, by people who have never seen what goes on

2012
02:04:21,840 --> 02:04:25,520
Speaker 7: at the border. They've never experienced where these people come from.

2013
02:04:25,120 --> 02:04:29,720
Speaker 7: And yeah, it's they're just numbers to people in DC, right,

2014
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:34,040
Speaker 7: And I would really urge people to not read immigration coverage,

2015
02:04:34,480 --> 02:04:36,640
Speaker 7: or watch immigration coverage, or listen to immigration coverage that

2016
02:04:36,680 --> 02:04:39,840
Speaker 7: isn't written by people at the border, because this isn't

2017
02:04:39,880 --> 02:04:42,120
Speaker 7: a fucking issue about numbers. Like every single one of

2018
02:04:42,160 --> 02:04:44,800
Speaker 7: those numbers is a person who has people they love

2019
02:04:44,920 --> 02:04:47,360
Speaker 7: and things that they've done and choices that they've made

2020
02:04:47,360 --> 02:04:50,560
Speaker 7: that got them there, and every single one of them

2021
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:54,480
Speaker 7: is someone who deserves compassion and empathy. And it's not

2022
02:04:54,760 --> 02:04:57,720
Speaker 7: just another you know, like a number in an Excel chart,

2023
02:04:57,760 --> 02:05:00,800
Speaker 7: which is how it's treated. And yeah, it has always

2024
02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:02,920
Speaker 7: been this way This is a very recent innovation, and

2025
02:05:02,960 --> 02:05:06,560
Speaker 7: it's I mean we've talked about this before as well,

2026
02:05:06,560 --> 02:05:09,520
Speaker 7: but right, this is the proving ground for state surveillance,

2027
02:05:09,600 --> 02:05:13,400
Speaker 7: state violence, fascism, all these things. Right, the reason that

2028
02:05:13,480 --> 02:05:15,920
Speaker 7: you got surveilled by a drone if you went to

2029
02:05:16,320 --> 02:05:18,920
Speaker 7: a George Floyd protest in Minneapolis is because the Border

2030
02:05:18,960 --> 02:05:22,920
Speaker 7: Patrol already had one. The reason that cops listened into

2031
02:05:22,960 --> 02:05:25,920
Speaker 7: your phone if you went to some protest in twenty

2032
02:05:25,920 --> 02:05:29,120
Speaker 7: twenty is because of border patrol technology. Right, they have

2033
02:05:29,200 --> 02:05:31,080
Speaker 7: these sting ray towers all up and down the border.

2034
02:05:31,600 --> 02:05:34,280
Speaker 7: Robert and I have seen him in Mexico, sorry, in

2035
02:05:34,400 --> 02:05:35,200
Speaker 7: Texas even.

2036
02:05:35,520 --> 02:05:37,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, you know, even even stuff like this,

2037
02:05:37,880 --> 02:05:39,760
Speaker 2: this is the sort of recent laws in places like

2038
02:05:39,760 --> 02:05:42,080
Speaker 2: Florida and Texas that are you know, led the state

2039
02:05:42,160 --> 02:05:44,760
Speaker 2: steel trans kids, right like that. That's also stuff that

2040
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:47,120
Speaker 2: was sort of like, yeah, like the prototype of that

2041
02:05:47,160 --> 02:05:48,720
Speaker 2: came from the I mean like it came from the border.

2042
02:05:49,240 --> 02:05:52,400
Speaker 2: There's it's also something that came from sort of like

2043
02:05:52,400 --> 02:05:57,040
Speaker 2: like anti black bullshit that like is sort of deeply

2044
02:05:57,120 --> 02:06:00,440
Speaker 2: rooted in like American family planning bullshit. But like, yeah,

2045
02:06:00,440 --> 02:06:02,680
Speaker 2: like that that's also another one of the places where

2046
02:06:02,680 --> 02:06:04,120
Speaker 2: like that stuff was tested.

2047
02:06:04,440 --> 02:06:06,960
Speaker 7: And with indigenous folks, like we've ripped Indigenous children for

2048
02:06:07,000 --> 02:06:11,280
Speaker 7: their families for decades. But yeah, we it's a deeply

2049
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:18,200
Speaker 7: baked white supremacist system that always does its experimenting on

2050
02:06:18,680 --> 02:06:22,040
Speaker 7: marginized people are very often at the border. But yeah,

2051
02:06:22,080 --> 02:06:26,080
Speaker 7: if you if you're worried about the government intercepting your

2052
02:06:26,120 --> 02:06:30,800
Speaker 7: communications with an abortion care provider, that has happened because

2053
02:06:30,800 --> 02:06:33,040
Speaker 7: at some point they've been allowed to do stuff to

2054
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:36,840
Speaker 7: migrants that was equally bad, if not worse, And and

2055
02:06:37,360 --> 02:06:40,600
Speaker 7: like this will hurt you even if you are like

2056
02:06:41,800 --> 02:06:44,160
Speaker 7: Kathy the liberal in Minnesota, like when we let the

2057
02:06:44,200 --> 02:06:47,840
Speaker 7: state have these powers, they don't just use them benevolently,

2058
02:06:47,880 --> 02:06:49,880
Speaker 7: and that they weren't using them benevolently in the first place.

2059
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:53,800
Speaker 7: Read like they say innocent people who've done nothing wrong.

2060
02:06:54,040 --> 02:06:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's the thing about state power

2061
02:06:56,680 --> 02:06:59,400
Speaker 2: is and any any power the state has, inevitably they

2062
02:06:59,400 --> 02:07:01,800
Speaker 2: will wonder you it on you. And so you can't

2063
02:07:01,880 --> 02:07:05,120
Speaker 2: let them take shit like this because you know they will.

2064
02:07:05,400 --> 02:07:08,560
Speaker 2: They will turn your entire society into a sort of

2065
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:10,000
Speaker 2: hell Garrison state.

2066
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:15,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's just I don't know that the inhumanity

2067
02:07:15,800 --> 02:07:18,080
Speaker 7: that your taxes pay for for listening to this in

2068
02:07:18,120 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 7: America is abhorrent. It's disgusting, and yeah, you should do

2069
02:07:23,320 --> 02:07:26,040
Speaker 7: everything you can to stop it. And like, this probably

2070
02:07:26,080 --> 02:07:29,160
Speaker 7: is one of the instances where like you may be

2071
02:07:29,200 --> 02:07:31,080
Speaker 7: able to do something of some value by writing to

2072
02:07:31,120 --> 02:07:34,040
Speaker 7: a politician. It's certainly one of the instances where if

2073
02:07:34,080 --> 02:07:36,560
Speaker 7: you live near the border, you can show up and

2074
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:40,400
Speaker 7: make a very meaningful difference to someone's whole experience. Right,

2075
02:07:40,520 --> 02:07:44,400
Speaker 7: Like myself and Joe were down there when this this

2076
02:07:44,520 --> 02:07:48,320
Speaker 7: guy had lost his phone, and like, you know, it

2077
02:07:48,400 --> 02:07:51,880
Speaker 7: wasn't that expensive to buy this guy a phone. Other

2078
02:07:52,280 --> 02:07:55,400
Speaker 7: like people will remember Mandy and people will remember Alex,

2079
02:07:55,480 --> 02:07:57,200
Speaker 7: who are two guests I've had on different San Diego

2080
02:07:57,200 --> 02:07:59,160
Speaker 7: episodes that they've both been down there. I know Alex

2081
02:07:59,200 --> 02:08:01,920
Speaker 7: gave his EpiPen to someone who needed an epipenn, like

2082
02:08:01,960 --> 02:08:06,360
Speaker 7: we acutely needed an EpiPen. Like things like that, you

2083
02:08:06,400 --> 02:08:09,200
Speaker 7: can maybe save someone's life, maybe just make someone's day

2084
02:08:09,240 --> 02:08:11,320
Speaker 7: a little bit less shit. You know, maybe you can

2085
02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:13,800
Speaker 7: let a kid kick a football and you'd have to

2086
02:08:13,800 --> 02:08:15,680
Speaker 7: deflate the football to get it through the defense early,

2087
02:08:16,320 --> 02:08:19,120
Speaker 7: but like, you know, you can give a doll to

2088
02:08:19,160 --> 02:08:20,920
Speaker 7: a little kid so they can play with it or something.

2089
02:08:20,960 --> 02:08:23,400
Speaker 7: Do somethink that will for a moment take them out

2090
02:08:23,440 --> 02:08:27,680
Speaker 7: of the utterly miserable place that we force them into.

2091
02:08:28,320 --> 02:08:31,680
Speaker 7: And if folks want to support that, I know I'd

2092
02:08:31,680 --> 02:08:35,760
Speaker 7: posted Mandy's cash app and Venmo and I think some

2093
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:38,160
Speaker 7: people very generously did contribute, which is great. If you're

2094
02:08:38,200 --> 02:08:43,360
Speaker 7: not at the border, look at Border Kindness, which is

2095
02:08:43,560 --> 02:08:45,160
Speaker 7: a group out of San Diego who I know are

2096
02:08:45,160 --> 02:08:48,600
Speaker 7: doing aid runs to Cucumber. I think the Houcumber Hotel

2097
02:08:48,680 --> 02:08:54,280
Speaker 7: Hukumba for those not familiar, Jacu Mba the Hookumber Hotel

2098
02:08:54,400 --> 02:08:58,040
Speaker 7: was housing folks and providing it there a huge amount

2099
02:08:58,080 --> 02:09:03,000
Speaker 7: of water and shelter to people this morning. People can

2100
02:09:03,600 --> 02:09:06,160
Speaker 7: look at the American French Service Committee that I wrote about,

2101
02:09:06,200 --> 02:09:08,880
Speaker 7: and I know that Joe and myself have shared some

2102
02:09:08,920 --> 02:09:11,120
Speaker 7: Amazon wish lists that people have and that kind of thing.

2103
02:09:11,200 --> 02:09:14,680
Speaker 7: But it's it's a massive task, but it's not one

2104
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:17,640
Speaker 7: that's like insurmountable. The amount of people I've seen show

2105
02:09:17,760 --> 02:09:21,680
Speaker 7: up to include like and you know, I'm not a

2106
02:09:21,720 --> 02:09:24,480
Speaker 7: religious person and I'm not a person who particularly cares

2107
02:09:24,520 --> 02:09:27,520
Speaker 7: for organized religion either, but it does make me happy

2108
02:09:27,520 --> 02:09:30,360
Speaker 7: when I see like old church ladies in high heels

2109
02:09:30,360 --> 02:09:34,240
Speaker 7: with perms coming out and like giving water to children,

2110
02:09:34,400 --> 02:09:39,800
Speaker 7: charging phones and seeing I think it's like, certainly I've

2111
02:09:39,800 --> 02:09:41,680
Speaker 7: lived on the border for fifteen years. It's been a

2112
02:09:41,680 --> 02:09:45,520
Speaker 7: fundamentally radicalizing experience for me. Like I think you're supposed

2113
02:09:45,520 --> 02:09:47,840
Speaker 7: to grow old and grow out of your anarchist politics

2114
02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:49,360
Speaker 7: or whatever. But I don't know how anyone could live

2115
02:09:49,400 --> 02:09:53,480
Speaker 7: here and think that like police state good it's and

2116
02:09:53,520 --> 02:09:56,120
Speaker 7: I think anybody who can get down here should it's

2117
02:09:56,160 --> 02:09:59,400
Speaker 7: good for you too, Like and I always think about

2118
02:09:59,400 --> 02:10:01,920
Speaker 7: how oscoor why child has this thing about like how

2119
02:10:02,040 --> 02:10:05,040
Speaker 7: seeing people living on the streets like not only undermind

2120
02:10:05,080 --> 02:10:08,440
Speaker 7: stare humanity, but also his humanity, because like seeing someone

2121
02:10:08,440 --> 02:10:10,640
Speaker 7: else suffering should make us feel bad, and so like

2122
02:10:10,720 --> 02:10:14,000
Speaker 7: he benefits when he helps someone, and like you know,

2123
02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:17,920
Speaker 7: we're all lifted up, right, Like I I guess one

2124
02:10:17,960 --> 02:10:19,600
Speaker 7: of the things I struggle with most of the journalist

2125
02:10:19,800 --> 02:10:24,240
Speaker 7: is that like that like feeling of living in comfort

2126
02:10:24,240 --> 02:10:28,040
Speaker 7: while other people can't, especially when it's such like it's

2127
02:10:28,080 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 7: one thing if I if I go somewhere, right, if

2128
02:10:30,640 --> 02:10:33,320
Speaker 7: I'm in Myanmar and I'm aware that things are difficult

2129
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:35,720
Speaker 7: and scary, and then I get on a plane and

2130
02:10:35,760 --> 02:10:38,960
Speaker 7: it takes two days when I come back. But just

2131
02:10:39,000 --> 02:10:43,560
Speaker 7: from like a personal like mental health perspective, seeing a

2132
02:10:43,600 --> 02:10:47,160
Speaker 7: little child sleep in the dirt, right, or someone asking

2133
02:10:47,200 --> 02:10:50,040
Speaker 7: me for fucking bin back so they can keep their

2134
02:10:50,080 --> 02:10:52,600
Speaker 7: baby out of the rain like a trash back, or

2135
02:10:52,640 --> 02:10:56,240
Speaker 7: a kid without shoes, you know, and then going home

2136
02:10:57,080 --> 02:11:00,800
Speaker 7: to my relatively comfortable existence is really hard. And I

2137
02:11:00,800 --> 02:11:02,360
Speaker 7: think we should all have to face up to that

2138
02:11:02,440 --> 02:11:06,640
Speaker 7: because it's what it's what our government is responsible for.

2139
02:11:06,680 --> 02:11:09,160
Speaker 7: And supposed we've got the best sucking option in twenty twenty, right,

2140
02:11:09,160 --> 02:11:11,800
Speaker 7: this is the this is this is the good choice

2141
02:11:12,160 --> 02:11:15,640
Speaker 7: of the two. But it doesn't make any meaningful difference

2142
02:11:15,680 --> 02:11:18,160
Speaker 7: whether you choose Trump or Biden to these people, right,

2143
02:11:18,360 --> 02:11:20,400
Speaker 7: because the best treat them like ship.

2144
02:11:21,040 --> 02:11:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the kids are still in cages. And yes,

2145
02:11:25,080 --> 02:11:28,919
Speaker 2: you know, until until until the entire system that enables

2146
02:11:28,920 --> 02:11:31,200
Speaker 2: the ship is destroyed and it can be right like,

2147
02:11:31,240 --> 02:11:33,320
Speaker 2: and this isn't even this, this isn't even on the

2148
02:11:33,360 --> 02:11:35,440
Speaker 2: on the level of sort of like you know of

2149
02:11:35,480 --> 02:11:38,400
Speaker 2: sort of anarchist politics, right like this, none of this

2150
02:11:38,440 --> 02:11:41,720
Speaker 2: ship existed twenty years ago, right, like this is this

2151
02:11:41,800 --> 02:11:43,640
Speaker 2: is like wow, okay, I guess it's twenty FOI three

2152
02:11:43,840 --> 02:11:44,760
Speaker 2: twenty five years ago.

2153
02:11:44,800 --> 02:11:46,840
Speaker 5: None of this ship existed even.

2154
02:11:46,600 --> 02:11:49,200
Speaker 2: Within like the framework of the nation state, right, Like,

2155
02:11:49,240 --> 02:11:51,480
Speaker 2: this is not a thing that you that we have

2156
02:11:51,600 --> 02:11:54,320
Speaker 2: to do, which we simply do.

2157
02:11:54,360 --> 02:11:55,960
Speaker 5: Not have to you.

2158
02:11:55,960 --> 02:11:59,680
Speaker 7: You could share politics with Bill Clinton and still.

2159
02:11:59,360 --> 02:12:02,520
Speaker 2: Ronald read was better on the fucking border than any

2160
02:12:02,600 --> 02:12:06,040
Speaker 2: than any president who has been alive in my fucking lifetime.

2161
02:12:06,320 --> 02:12:08,600
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, fucking Reagan.

2162
02:12:09,360 --> 02:12:13,360
Speaker 7: Dwight Eisenhower would have had serious concerns about the industrial

2163
02:12:13,360 --> 02:12:14,640
Speaker 7: complex we're building at the border.

2164
02:12:14,720 --> 02:12:16,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like this is not like this, this, this isn't

2165
02:12:16,760 --> 02:12:21,440
Speaker 2: this isn't like a particularly radical political thing, right, It's

2166
02:12:21,520 --> 02:12:24,160
Speaker 2: just that we've we've become sort of a nerd to

2167
02:12:24,320 --> 02:12:28,200
Speaker 2: this death state that's built up around us, and you know,

2168
02:12:28,400 --> 02:12:31,440
Speaker 2: doesn't it doesn't keep anyone safe. It just fucking inflicts

2169
02:12:31,600 --> 02:12:36,320
Speaker 2: untold human misery. So fucking Greg Abbott can win an election.

2170
02:12:37,200 --> 02:12:40,520
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, and it costs us a lot of money. Right, Like,

2171
02:12:40,720 --> 02:12:45,720
Speaker 7: your universal healthcare is an unmandrone flying over some children

2172
02:12:45,840 --> 02:12:49,879
Speaker 7: run across a desert in Arizona. Right now, Your free

2173
02:12:50,280 --> 02:12:54,720
Speaker 7: university education is a border patrol smart camera in the

2174
02:12:54,760 --> 02:12:57,200
Speaker 7: desert that goes off every time a fucking deer walks past.

2175
02:12:57,200 --> 02:13:01,440
Speaker 7: How it rains like it. This stuff is expensive and like,

2176
02:13:02,240 --> 02:13:04,600
Speaker 7: if you're in the US, you are paying for it. Yeah.

2177
02:13:04,640 --> 02:13:10,120
Speaker 7: I think the most sort of soft of liberals can

2178
02:13:10,160 --> 02:13:11,680
Speaker 7: see that this is right. And they did see that

2179
02:13:11,720 --> 02:13:15,000
Speaker 7: this ship was wrong in the Trump administration, and they

2180
02:13:15,040 --> 02:13:16,920
Speaker 7: do see this is wrong when they come right, Like

2181
02:13:18,680 --> 02:13:21,760
Speaker 7: I've some of the best mutual aid groups I've worked

2182
02:13:21,760 --> 02:13:25,840
Speaker 7: with are like middle aged folks from churches who have

2183
02:13:26,200 --> 02:13:29,640
Speaker 7: time and the means to help and just didn't realize

2184
02:13:29,640 --> 02:13:31,600
Speaker 7: that it was like no one was coming and we

2185
02:13:31,640 --> 02:13:33,840
Speaker 7: had to do it ourselves. And when they did that,

2186
02:13:33,880 --> 02:13:37,080
Speaker 7: they were very effective. And so I would encourage folks

2187
02:13:37,080 --> 02:13:40,680
Speaker 7: who are in border communities near the border. Near the

2188
02:13:40,680 --> 02:13:42,720
Speaker 7: border means a different thing of your border patrol because

2189
02:13:42,760 --> 02:13:45,080
Speaker 7: their jurisdiction applies one hundred miles.

2190
02:13:44,880 --> 02:13:45,560
Speaker 5: From the border.

2191
02:13:45,800 --> 02:13:48,400
Speaker 7: That's the other thing, right, the border will come to you.

2192
02:13:48,520 --> 02:13:48,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2193
02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:53,320
Speaker 2: Statistically, odds are that you are the border already has

2194
02:13:53,320 --> 02:13:53,800
Speaker 2: come to you.

2195
02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:56,400
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah.

2196
02:13:56,440 --> 02:13:58,360
Speaker 7: Two thirds of people in the United States are in

2197
02:13:58,440 --> 02:14:00,520
Speaker 7: the border patrol in for Smith Zone.

2198
02:14:00,600 --> 02:14:03,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm in it, and I'm in like fucking Chicago, right.

2199
02:14:03,240 --> 02:14:08,240
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, like yeah, I think yes, people who would

2200
02:14:08,240 --> 02:14:09,840
Speaker 7: not think of themselves as bored as well as the

2201
02:14:09,840 --> 02:14:12,800
Speaker 7: border affects you. If you go to other communities in

2202
02:14:12,800 --> 02:14:15,400
Speaker 7: your city, you might realize border patroller around there, Ice

2203
02:14:15,440 --> 02:14:20,360
Speaker 7: are around there. So yeah, it's it's pretty bleak. We're

2204
02:14:20,400 --> 02:14:22,560
Speaker 7: working on some scripted stuff, but I want to get

2205
02:14:22,600 --> 02:14:24,480
Speaker 7: into a bit of the history of border patrol and

2206
02:14:24,600 --> 02:14:26,840
Speaker 7: rereading Border Patrol Nation, which is a great book if

2207
02:14:26,840 --> 02:14:31,920
Speaker 7: people haven't read it, and I want The other thing

2208
02:14:31,920 --> 02:14:35,600
Speaker 7: I should say about border reporting is if people don't

2209
02:14:35,640 --> 02:14:38,400
Speaker 7: center migrants and they're reporting about migration, then you shouldn't

2210
02:14:38,440 --> 02:14:41,880
Speaker 7: be reading that reporting. Like sometimes it can be hard.

2211
02:14:42,480 --> 02:14:43,960
Speaker 7: One other thing I guess I do want to say

2212
02:14:44,000 --> 02:14:46,000
Speaker 7: is you're seeing my photos and you're seeing Joe's photos,

2213
02:14:46,040 --> 02:14:48,800
Speaker 7: You're not going to see many faces. And that's because

2214
02:14:48,840 --> 02:14:51,200
Speaker 7: people have legitimate fears for their wellbeing. That's why they

2215
02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:56,560
Speaker 7: are fucking here. Yeah, and not obtaining consent before taking

2216
02:14:56,600 --> 02:15:00,800
Speaker 7: photographs is making a terrible situation worse, And like that's

2217
02:15:00,800 --> 02:15:03,560
Speaker 7: something that we can work on as a media, right,

2218
02:15:03,640 --> 02:15:05,440
Speaker 7: like something I will continue to call out when I

2219
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:09,120
Speaker 7: see it. But if you don't speak the language, find

2220
02:15:09,120 --> 02:15:12,640
Speaker 7: someone who does it. Don't take the goddamn photo. You'll

2221
02:15:12,680 --> 02:15:14,040
Speaker 7: see some face in the mind. Like I like to

2222
02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:16,520
Speaker 7: pass my camera through the fence and give it to

2223
02:15:16,640 --> 02:15:18,760
Speaker 7: like teenage kids so they can run around and take

2224
02:15:18,760 --> 02:15:21,280
Speaker 7: photos and have fun. And like so when they take

2225
02:15:21,320 --> 02:15:25,000
Speaker 7: like goofy selfies, I'll post those. They get concerned from

2226
02:15:25,000 --> 02:15:26,480
Speaker 7: them or their parents, and the parents are around it,

2227
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:31,800
Speaker 7: and that's fine. But yeah, when you're looking at border coverage,

2228
02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:35,600
Speaker 7: always understand that these are people and if we don't

2229
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:38,520
Speaker 7: center those people and their stories, then we're doing it wrong.

2230
02:15:39,520 --> 02:15:43,760
Speaker 2: If you can physically get to these places, like you should,

2231
02:15:44,080 --> 02:15:45,920
Speaker 2: like the the the this is this is one of

2232
02:15:45,920 --> 02:15:48,840
Speaker 2: the like the situations where like the amount of good

2233
02:15:48,880 --> 02:15:51,560
Speaker 2: that like a very small number of people could do

2234
02:15:51,960 --> 02:15:55,640
Speaker 2: is enormous and the cost is not that high.

2235
02:15:56,280 --> 02:16:01,920
Speaker 7: No, but for instance, I some of my friends had

2236
02:16:01,960 --> 02:16:04,040
Speaker 7: just gone to Costco right and just loaded up one

2237
02:16:04,080 --> 02:16:06,760
Speaker 7: of those big Costco trolleys and like that that makes

2238
02:16:06,760 --> 02:16:11,520
Speaker 7: a meaningful difference to hundreds of people, And so you should.

2239
02:16:11,880 --> 02:16:13,880
Speaker 7: There will probably be mutual aid networks on the ground

2240
02:16:13,920 --> 02:16:18,520
Speaker 7: at almost every border area. By now, reach out to them,

2241
02:16:18,600 --> 02:16:20,880
Speaker 7: see if they need the money. If you can get

2242
02:16:20,880 --> 02:16:24,440
Speaker 7: there and help organize, that's better. If you have skills, right,

2243
02:16:24,480 --> 02:16:27,839
Speaker 7: if you have language skills yours, like there are people

2244
02:16:29,000 --> 02:16:32,080
Speaker 7: I met a guy who spoke Commanji, like the Kurdish

2245
02:16:32,200 --> 02:16:37,119
Speaker 7: dialect of North and East Syria, right, people who speak

2246
02:16:37,680 --> 02:16:42,039
Speaker 7: Vietnamese almost every language you can conceive of.

2247
02:16:42,280 --> 02:16:42,440
Speaker 6: Right.

2248
02:16:43,320 --> 02:16:45,920
Speaker 7: Those people really struggle to get information and they just

2249
02:16:46,280 --> 02:16:49,080
Speaker 7: can't talk to anyone because there's no one else to

2250
02:16:49,120 --> 02:16:52,800
Speaker 7: talk to and their phone, you know, the phone charges

2251
02:16:52,920 --> 02:16:55,640
Speaker 7: is a precious commodity and it's cost a lot of

2252
02:16:55,640 --> 02:16:57,640
Speaker 7: money to dial into Nashley. So those people could just

2253
02:16:57,640 --> 02:17:00,560
Speaker 7: be lonely. So if you have those language skills, go.

2254
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:03,000
Speaker 7: Someone broke their finger in San Diegore getting crushed up

2255
02:17:03,000 --> 02:17:05,000
Speaker 7: against the fence. If you know there was a medic

2256
02:17:05,000 --> 02:17:06,920
Speaker 7: there to help them. If they hadn't been, that could

2257
02:17:06,959 --> 02:17:08,879
Speaker 7: have been worse for them. And you know, sometimes the

2258
02:17:08,920 --> 02:17:11,840
Speaker 7: ambulance can come in and take people out. But there

2259
02:17:11,840 --> 02:17:14,959
Speaker 7: are valuable, meaningful things that you could do if you

2260
02:17:14,959 --> 02:17:16,640
Speaker 7: have the time, if not, if you have the money,

2261
02:17:17,200 --> 02:17:20,360
Speaker 7: there are really important places to donate, and there's just

2262
02:17:20,400 --> 02:17:22,959
Speaker 7: a couple of them. Will highlight a couple more as

2263
02:17:23,000 --> 02:17:25,280
Speaker 7: we go forward. And one more thing I did want

2264
02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:29,240
Speaker 7: to plug is miles for migrants where if you have

2265
02:17:29,360 --> 02:17:31,800
Speaker 7: if you don't have money, but you do have airline miles.

2266
02:17:32,200 --> 02:17:34,520
Speaker 7: Like I was speaking to this guy today who got across.

2267
02:17:34,840 --> 02:17:36,680
Speaker 7: He has two days and he has to get himself

2268
02:17:36,720 --> 02:17:40,800
Speaker 7: in New York where he has family. I don't have

2269
02:17:40,920 --> 02:17:43,360
Speaker 7: the means to buy four airline tickets or it would,

2270
02:17:43,440 --> 02:17:45,200
Speaker 7: but if you have air miles and you want to

2271
02:17:45,240 --> 02:17:46,000
Speaker 7: donate them, you can.

2272
02:17:46,240 --> 02:17:47,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then this is the thing, like you know,

2273
02:17:47,640 --> 02:17:49,640
Speaker 2: like I have family who, for example, like work at

2274
02:17:49,640 --> 02:17:51,600
Speaker 2: Hong Kong, right, and they have like you know, and

2275
02:17:51,600 --> 02:17:54,120
Speaker 2: they're like there are people like that who could are like,

2276
02:17:54,200 --> 02:17:55,959
Speaker 2: you know, not radicals, but are sort of you know,

2277
02:17:56,120 --> 02:17:56,360
Speaker 2: like you.

2278
02:17:56,600 --> 02:17:58,920
Speaker 5: Could like like there are people in.

2279
02:17:58,879 --> 02:18:02,039
Speaker 2: This world who have a shit of miles like built

2280
02:18:02,120 --> 02:18:04,560
Speaker 2: up because you know, for like work or some shit,

2281
02:18:04,720 --> 02:18:07,400
Speaker 2: right that's just sitting there, and that that's something that

2282
02:18:08,240 --> 02:18:11,879
Speaker 2: you know, like you can you can like like you you.

2283
02:18:11,840 --> 02:18:13,920
Speaker 5: May not have it. You might know people who do.

2284
02:18:14,800 --> 02:18:17,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you might know someone who does a weird

2285
02:18:17,160 --> 02:18:20,080
Speaker 7: credit card flipping thing, you know, where they like get

2286
02:18:20,200 --> 02:18:23,320
Speaker 7: air miles in and make it their whole personality to

2287
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:26,000
Speaker 7: to get air miles. But like whatever, if those people

2288
02:18:26,000 --> 02:18:28,720
Speaker 7: can help, yeah, you don't need to turn them into

2289
02:18:28,800 --> 02:18:33,879
Speaker 7: like Macnavists overnight. Like like, nobody wants to see a

2290
02:18:33,879 --> 02:18:36,840
Speaker 7: little baby sleep in the dirt, and anybody who could

2291
02:18:36,879 --> 02:18:39,560
Speaker 7: be there physically would be appalled by it. And I

2292
02:18:39,600 --> 02:18:41,680
Speaker 7: think if you can convey to those folks that now

2293
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:45,879
Speaker 7: at the time when something that costs them nothing materially, Yeah, right,

2294
02:18:45,959 --> 02:18:47,760
Speaker 7: Like I know tons of people have more miles that

2295
02:18:47,800 --> 02:18:50,920
Speaker 7: they can use because they fly at the time for work.

2296
02:18:50,959 --> 02:18:52,600
Speaker 7: You don't want to fly. When you're done flying, you

2297
02:18:52,640 --> 02:18:55,320
Speaker 7: want to stay at home. So that's another way that

2298
02:18:55,360 --> 02:19:00,720
Speaker 7: people can help. And yeah, just I guess it's a

2299
02:19:00,800 --> 02:19:04,920
Speaker 7: crisis that will continue unabated because the cruelty is the

2300
02:19:04,959 --> 02:19:08,800
Speaker 7: point and it's for once. Like you know, we can't

2301
02:19:08,800 --> 02:19:11,360
Speaker 7: stop all the climate change and all this bad shit,

2302
02:19:12,400 --> 02:19:15,720
Speaker 7: but this is something that it is within our power

2303
02:19:16,000 --> 02:19:20,000
Speaker 7: to a bet, can't We can't make it go away yet.

2304
02:19:20,120 --> 02:19:22,600
Speaker 7: But like we spoke to the people who are doing

2305
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:24,720
Speaker 7: border drops on the border, there are meaningful things that

2306
02:19:25,000 --> 02:19:26,920
Speaker 7: every single one of us can do to help.

2307
02:19:27,760 --> 02:19:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, go into the world. Do not let the violence

2308
02:19:31,160 --> 02:19:34,320
Speaker 2: done in our name be who we are.

2309
02:19:36,240 --> 02:19:38,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, sure, people, you're better than this.

2310
02:19:38,440 --> 02:19:52,440
Speaker 1: I guess, hey everyone, Robert here. Before we get into it,

2311
02:19:52,480 --> 02:19:56,400
Speaker 1: I want to note my internet was terrible during this call.

2312
02:19:56,959 --> 02:19:59,880
Speaker 1: We tried to have the guest record locally, but there

2313
02:20:00,120 --> 02:20:03,080
Speaker 1: is kind of a technical glitch there, and Zoom glitched

2314
02:20:03,080 --> 02:20:05,160
Speaker 1: a little on the audio. In order to make it listenable.

2315
02:20:05,160 --> 02:20:07,000
Speaker 1: There are going to be like three or four points

2316
02:20:07,040 --> 02:20:10,160
Speaker 1: here where I pop in and just say what he

2317
02:20:10,200 --> 02:20:13,280
Speaker 1: was trying to say or what he said, and the

2318
02:20:13,280 --> 02:20:16,800
Speaker 1: Internet then garbled up so that you can understand what's

2319
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:19,000
Speaker 1: actually being said in the conversation. So when my voice

2320
02:20:19,000 --> 02:20:22,440
Speaker 1: pops in and I read a line, it's me reading

2321
02:20:22,480 --> 02:20:24,880
Speaker 1: something that he said that got kind of distorted. I

2322
02:20:24,879 --> 02:20:32,560
Speaker 1: do apologize. Ah, welcome to it could happen here. A

2323
02:20:32,760 --> 02:20:37,160
Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart and occasionally about the quest

2324
02:20:37,280 --> 02:20:40,160
Speaker 1: to build a better world. Today, we've got an episode

2325
02:20:40,760 --> 02:20:45,080
Speaker 1: that is in the latter category about the struggle to

2326
02:20:45,680 --> 02:20:49,880
Speaker 1: make the United Kingdom less I don't know, in the

2327
02:20:49,920 --> 02:20:53,879
Speaker 1: thrall of a monarchy and an aristocratic class, and to

2328
02:20:53,920 --> 02:20:57,400
Speaker 1: build a more equitable society. And our guest today is

2329
02:20:57,600 --> 02:21:02,039
Speaker 1: somebody who is attempting to through that cause and did

2330
02:21:02,080 --> 02:21:06,280
Speaker 1: so last year by attempting to huck several eggs at

2331
02:21:06,400 --> 02:21:11,320
Speaker 1: the current King of England, Charles the I forget the number, Patrick, Well,

2332
02:21:11,360 --> 02:21:14,320
Speaker 1: how are you doing today? Hi?

2333
02:21:14,640 --> 02:21:15,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm good. Thanks.

2334
02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:19,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. It was five eggs. Five eggs and he's the

2335
02:21:20,000 --> 02:21:24,080
Speaker 4: third king, the third k far more than three unfortunately.

2336
02:21:24,640 --> 02:21:28,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys have had a few. Was one of

2337
02:21:28,600 --> 02:21:29,959
Speaker 1: the one she'll killed to Charles?

2338
02:21:30,760 --> 02:21:32,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that was the last one.

2339
02:21:32,480 --> 02:21:37,320
Speaker 1: That was the last one. Well, I would say, yeah.

2340
02:21:38,440 --> 02:21:41,160
Speaker 1: So let's start by talking about this is in a

2341
02:21:41,280 --> 02:21:45,760
Speaker 1: twenty about a year ago at a he was doing

2342
02:21:45,800 --> 02:21:47,959
Speaker 1: a They called it a walkabout, which I guess is

2343
02:21:47,959 --> 02:21:50,640
Speaker 1: when the king shows up in a city in the video.

2344
02:21:50,720 --> 02:21:53,120
Speaker 1: I watched the video of this and like, there's a

2345
02:21:53,120 --> 02:21:55,560
Speaker 1: bunch of people dressed in all sorts of fun costumes,

2346
02:21:55,600 --> 02:21:59,080
Speaker 1: and some ladies got a massive sword, like a sword,

2347
02:21:59,280 --> 02:22:01,560
Speaker 1: a sword of the size that I know for a

2348
02:22:01,640 --> 02:22:03,640
Speaker 1: fact that man cannot lift above his head.

2349
02:22:05,480 --> 02:22:06,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's funny.

2350
02:22:06,520 --> 02:22:08,240
Speaker 4: He comes out of his little car and I know,

2351
02:22:08,280 --> 02:22:13,200
Speaker 4: all the little trumpets go and everyone starts, you know,

2352
02:22:13,800 --> 02:22:15,760
Speaker 4: waving their flags on queue and.

2353
02:22:15,640 --> 02:22:17,200
Speaker 6: Going like, look there he is. There.

2354
02:22:17,200 --> 02:22:21,440
Speaker 4: He is pretty unhinged, to be honest. It's it's it's

2355
02:22:21,480 --> 02:22:22,160
Speaker 4: quite embarrassing.

2356
02:22:22,240 --> 02:22:28,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's like the the American chauvinist in me

2357
02:22:28,240 --> 02:22:32,039
Speaker 1: that like wants to wants to laugh more about the monarchy.

2358
02:22:32,120 --> 02:22:36,520
Speaker 1: But I'm just finished reading an article about Diane Feinstein

2359
02:22:36,920 --> 02:22:40,520
Speaker 1: where the journalist interviewing her was like, so, you've missed

2360
02:22:40,560 --> 02:22:42,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of votes over the last three months, and

2361
02:22:42,280 --> 02:22:44,400
Speaker 1: she's like, no, I haven't. I've been working the whole time.

2362
02:22:44,840 --> 02:22:48,280
Speaker 1: So I guess we're all kind of enthrall to the

2363
02:22:48,280 --> 02:22:50,560
Speaker 1: corpses of of of our past.

2364
02:22:51,760 --> 02:22:54,800
Speaker 6: It's hierarchy. Hierarchy everywhere is the problem.

2365
02:22:55,640 --> 02:22:58,760
Speaker 1: So you decide to show up when you kind of

2366
02:22:58,800 --> 02:23:01,360
Speaker 1: find out that the king is going to be showing

2367
02:23:01,440 --> 02:23:03,600
Speaker 1: up here, and what kind of leads you to decide,

2368
02:23:03,640 --> 02:23:06,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna throw some eggs in my pocket

2369
02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:08,720
Speaker 1: and take my shot.

2370
02:23:09,560 --> 02:23:11,840
Speaker 4: So I actually found out that he was coming to

2371
02:23:11,920 --> 02:23:14,160
Speaker 4: York about three days with a megaphone and you know,

2372
02:23:14,440 --> 02:23:16,199
Speaker 4: shout some cause obviously.

2373
02:23:16,520 --> 02:23:19,000
Speaker 6: The queen had died.

2374
02:23:20,720 --> 02:23:25,400
Speaker 4: About a month or so before, and during the funeral

2375
02:23:25,440 --> 02:23:29,000
Speaker 4: processions there was you know, several people were arrested for

2376
02:23:30,120 --> 02:23:34,440
Speaker 4: someone shouted at you know, Prince Andrew, you know, in

2377
02:23:34,480 --> 02:23:37,320
Speaker 4: Scotland's they were like, oh, you're a sick old man,

2378
02:23:37,680 --> 02:23:40,080
Speaker 4: and they did, and that was probably my inspiration. But

2379
02:23:40,120 --> 02:23:42,640
Speaker 4: then on the morning when he came to York, my

2380
02:23:42,879 --> 02:23:45,800
Speaker 4: megaphone was just like busted. So I was just like, oh, okay,

2381
02:23:45,800 --> 02:23:47,440
Speaker 4: I'm gonna gonna go get some eggs then.

2382
02:23:48,640 --> 02:23:51,960
Speaker 1: And white eggs. What what kind of led to that decision?

2383
02:23:53,320 --> 02:23:54,240
Speaker 6: Man? Everyone asked that.

2384
02:23:54,640 --> 02:23:56,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess like I was into the assumption that

2385
02:23:56,800 --> 02:23:58,560
Speaker 4: we all just knew that you throw eggs at people,

2386
02:23:58,600 --> 02:24:00,080
Speaker 4: you don't like maybe it's a British thing.

2387
02:24:01,000 --> 02:24:03,160
Speaker 1: But I think it may just be that in the

2388
02:24:03,280 --> 02:24:05,960
Speaker 1: US because of the gun stuff, people are like a

2389
02:24:06,000 --> 02:24:08,840
Speaker 1: lot more hesitant to huck stuff just for fun, right,

2390
02:24:08,840 --> 02:24:11,200
Speaker 1: if you're throwing stuff and somebody it's serious.

2391
02:24:12,440 --> 02:24:14,240
Speaker 6: Although someone someone threw a beer at.

2392
02:24:16,320 --> 02:24:16,879
Speaker 5: Ted Cruz.

2393
02:24:17,000 --> 02:24:20,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they sure did. That was good. That was good.

2394
02:24:20,600 --> 02:24:21,840
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2395
02:24:22,040 --> 02:24:24,039
Speaker 4: I think, you know, I actually had a lot of

2396
02:24:24,040 --> 02:24:28,400
Speaker 4: time to think about before my trial about why eggs

2397
02:24:28,400 --> 02:24:30,039
Speaker 4: and stuff, and I think they're just funny, you know,

2398
02:24:30,120 --> 02:24:31,800
Speaker 4: like there's a lot of egg puns that came out

2399
02:24:31,800 --> 02:24:34,840
Speaker 4: of it that that that you know, not to get

2400
02:24:34,840 --> 02:24:37,240
Speaker 4: too philosophical about it, but they're kind of you know

2401
02:24:37,280 --> 02:24:43,199
Speaker 4: they're they're really harmless, you know, but inherently humiliating as well.

2402
02:24:43,600 --> 02:24:47,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to argue attempted murder from an egg,

2403
02:24:47,720 --> 02:24:49,280
Speaker 1: but at the same time getting it.

2404
02:24:49,920 --> 02:24:51,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, well exactly.

2405
02:24:51,959 --> 02:24:53,680
Speaker 4: And I think there's there's something to be said for

2406
02:24:54,280 --> 02:24:58,920
Speaker 4: contrasting the violence of the state yea, with what's obviously

2407
02:24:59,000 --> 02:25:02,520
Speaker 4: like very low level violence. And yeah, I'm the one

2408
02:25:02,560 --> 02:25:04,520
Speaker 4: standing trial for it.

2409
02:25:05,760 --> 02:25:09,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it. It is like the language that

2410
02:25:09,280 --> 02:25:12,119
Speaker 1: got used by the state kind of in the proceedings

2411
02:25:12,160 --> 02:25:15,080
Speaker 1: against you was was amusing. Like I know that it

2412
02:25:15,200 --> 02:25:17,120
Speaker 1: was a pain in the ash you had to go through,

2413
02:25:17,120 --> 02:25:20,800
Speaker 1: but like the kind of the framing that they they

2414
02:25:20,879 --> 02:25:22,800
Speaker 1: put with it to make it seem like this was

2415
02:25:22,920 --> 02:25:27,840
Speaker 1: this was such a like serious offense against public order

2416
02:25:28,040 --> 02:25:31,879
Speaker 1: was was was quite funny. And I think it's beyond

2417
02:25:31,959 --> 02:25:33,960
Speaker 1: me to know what was going on in the now

2418
02:25:34,040 --> 02:25:36,840
Speaker 1: King's head at the time, but you got quite close.

2419
02:25:37,840 --> 02:25:40,480
Speaker 1: You can see right after it hit there's goop on

2420
02:25:40,520 --> 02:25:42,720
Speaker 1: the ground directly in front of his foot, and his

2421
02:25:42,800 --> 02:25:45,800
Speaker 1: shoulders slump a little and he looks down, and I

2422
02:25:45,879 --> 02:25:48,320
Speaker 1: wonder if it made him feel bad. I hope it did,

2423
02:25:49,240 --> 02:25:51,440
Speaker 1: you know. I can't get inside the man's head. Maybe

2424
02:25:51,480 --> 02:25:53,840
Speaker 1: he's not capable of that, but I wonder.

2425
02:25:54,959 --> 02:25:57,480
Speaker 4: So, Yeah, I mean through five, and I will say

2426
02:25:57,480 --> 02:25:59,320
Speaker 4: it for the record that one of them did bounce

2427
02:25:59,320 --> 02:26:01,480
Speaker 4: off his arm, but he does have a force field,

2428
02:26:01,600 --> 02:26:04,360
Speaker 4: so it's not my fault that it didn't didn't get

2429
02:26:04,640 --> 02:26:07,760
Speaker 4: the full impact. But yeah, I honestly think he didn't

2430
02:26:07,760 --> 02:26:10,000
Speaker 4: have a clue what's going on. He's pretty pretty seen,

2431
02:26:10,040 --> 02:26:15,560
Speaker 4: how to be honest. Yeah, but you know, monarchists were like,

2432
02:26:16,360 --> 02:26:18,720
Speaker 4: so like, wow, look at how stoic he is.

2433
02:26:18,760 --> 02:26:20,640
Speaker 6: He just doesn't even care. He just shrugged it off.

2434
02:26:20,680 --> 02:26:23,520
Speaker 4: He's such a badass, and it's like he's just been

2435
02:26:23,520 --> 02:26:29,119
Speaker 4: guided through this series of bizarre public opinions where he's

2436
02:26:29,160 --> 02:26:32,360
Speaker 4: got to pretend that he you know, smiles and waves

2437
02:26:32,360 --> 02:26:34,720
Speaker 4: at normal people and he doesn't think that we're all plebs.

2438
02:26:34,760 --> 02:26:41,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, And it was the crowd reaction around

2439
02:26:41,280 --> 02:26:44,040
Speaker 1: you was pretty intense from what I understand. I mean,

2440
02:26:44,080 --> 02:26:47,279
Speaker 1: like people came after you when they realized what had happened.

2441
02:26:48,240 --> 02:26:50,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think in some ways that spoke more

2442
02:26:50,879 --> 02:26:53,720
Speaker 4: more itself than like anything that I could have done.

2443
02:26:53,920 --> 02:26:56,600
Speaker 4: You know, the reaction to the video, you know, people

2444
02:26:56,640 --> 02:26:59,680
Speaker 4: immediately just start like pulling my hair out in chunks

2445
02:26:59,680 --> 02:27:02,400
Speaker 4: and just like screaming, like you know, like.

2446
02:27:02,440 --> 02:27:04,280
Speaker 6: Just killing him, like stick his head on a spike,

2447
02:27:04,440 --> 02:27:06,000
Speaker 6: kick him to death, you know.

2448
02:27:06,120 --> 02:27:08,520
Speaker 4: And it really I think maybe that kind of rhetoric

2449
02:27:08,600 --> 02:27:11,400
Speaker 4: is perhaps more like, you know that the overt violence

2450
02:27:11,480 --> 02:27:14,600
Speaker 4: is more prevalent in American politics. But yeah, you know,

2451
02:27:14,800 --> 02:27:18,039
Speaker 4: it exposed that you know, these people are essentially fascists,

2452
02:27:18,200 --> 02:27:18,560
Speaker 4: you know.

2453
02:27:18,720 --> 02:27:22,959
Speaker 6: And that they yeah, they're very, very violent people.

2454
02:27:24,920 --> 02:27:29,320
Speaker 1: And I think this is something people have are starting

2455
02:27:29,720 --> 02:27:34,199
Speaker 1: to recognize a little bit more about kind of politics

2456
02:27:34,280 --> 02:27:37,039
Speaker 1: in the UK. I mean, we're looking right now. The

2457
02:27:37,040 --> 02:27:39,560
Speaker 1: Public Order Act of twenty twenty three is kind of

2458
02:27:39,560 --> 02:27:45,000
Speaker 1: the most recent law that's gone through Parliament that effectively

2459
02:27:45,520 --> 02:27:49,080
Speaker 1: like expands the ability of the police to crack down

2460
02:27:49,120 --> 02:27:52,600
Speaker 1: on protests. Some people will argue, and I think this seems,

2461
02:27:52,760 --> 02:27:56,600
Speaker 1: based on what I've read, pretty credible that it basically

2462
02:27:56,640 --> 02:27:59,280
Speaker 1: makes it possible for the police to arrest anyone for

2463
02:27:59,440 --> 02:28:04,599
Speaker 1: almost any kind of activism. And that kind of was

2464
02:28:04,600 --> 02:28:08,400
Speaker 1: was exhibited during the coronation when a group of kind

2465
02:28:08,480 --> 02:28:11,120
Speaker 1: of of anti monarchist protesters who are more on the

2466
02:28:11,160 --> 02:28:13,360
Speaker 1: liberal side of things, and you're kind of approaching this

2467
02:28:14,160 --> 02:28:19,360
Speaker 1: as an anarchist, but a fairly large group of protesters

2468
02:28:19,400 --> 02:28:21,600
Speaker 1: with signs that were saying stuff like not my king,

2469
02:28:22,600 --> 02:28:26,280
Speaker 1: attempted to rally doing so. I believe their their goal,

2470
02:28:26,320 --> 02:28:28,520
Speaker 1: from what I can tell, was to comply with the

2471
02:28:28,600 --> 02:28:32,040
Speaker 1: law as they understood it, and that did not protect

2472
02:28:32,080 --> 02:28:33,160
Speaker 1: them from the police.

2473
02:28:34,480 --> 02:28:37,840
Speaker 4: No. So you know, the context is in the wake

2474
02:28:38,040 --> 02:28:41,879
Speaker 4: of the police there was a police officer, you know,

2475
02:28:41,959 --> 02:28:46,080
Speaker 4: last year who murdered a woman, Sarah Everard. Yeah, and

2476
02:28:46,160 --> 02:28:49,000
Speaker 4: in the wake of that, they passed the Police, Courts,

2477
02:28:49,879 --> 02:28:53,080
Speaker 4: Sentencing and Crime Bill, and that that bill was really like,

2478
02:28:53,200 --> 02:28:56,160
Speaker 4: you know, the most over crackdown on protest.

2479
02:28:56,600 --> 02:28:57,599
Speaker 6: It banned.

2480
02:28:59,040 --> 02:29:01,920
Speaker 4: It allowed the police to arrest, the discretion of an officer,

2481
02:29:02,040 --> 02:29:07,320
Speaker 4: any protest that was deemed potentially annoying, like that's the

2482
02:29:07,320 --> 02:29:10,920
Speaker 4: specific language, is any any any action that could be

2483
02:29:10,959 --> 02:29:14,120
Speaker 4: loud or annoying. So, you know, there was a there

2484
02:29:14,160 --> 02:29:16,000
Speaker 4: was a lot of protests against that at the time.

2485
02:29:16,000 --> 02:29:18,560
Speaker 4: That obviously came to nothing, and they passed the bill anyway,

2486
02:29:18,879 --> 02:29:20,680
Speaker 4: and then and then so the Public Order Bill just

2487
02:29:20,720 --> 02:29:23,440
Speaker 4: goes that step further by allowing them to preemptively arrest

2488
02:29:23,959 --> 02:29:26,760
Speaker 4: anyone who might be about to do something that's loud

2489
02:29:27,080 --> 02:29:32,160
Speaker 4: or annoying, and including this new thing called a serious

2490
02:29:32,160 --> 02:29:35,240
Speaker 4: Disruption Prevention Order, which is something that they can apply

2491
02:29:35,360 --> 02:29:38,360
Speaker 4: to someone who's considered an aggravated activist.

2492
02:29:38,280 --> 02:29:41,000
Speaker 1: He's saying, which is someone who has been arrested more

2493
02:29:41,040 --> 02:29:43,160
Speaker 1: than twice for protest related offenses.

2494
02:29:43,520 --> 02:29:45,760
Speaker 4: Essentially, it bans, you know, use of the internet to

2495
02:29:45,760 --> 02:29:48,640
Speaker 4: communicate about your ideas, basically stop you from attending protests

2496
02:29:48,640 --> 02:29:49,240
Speaker 4: in the first place.

2497
02:29:49,320 --> 02:29:50,840
Speaker 6: And a rest the train station.

2498
02:29:52,840 --> 02:29:56,160
Speaker 4: And yeah, we saw that in play with with the Republic,

2499
02:29:56,280 --> 02:30:00,560
Speaker 4: that this organization that had been extensively liaising with the police,

2500
02:30:00,600 --> 02:30:03,360
Speaker 4: and you know, it just seemed quite like Pikachu face

2501
02:30:03,440 --> 02:30:05,640
Speaker 4: when suddenly they were all just rounded up and yeah,

2502
02:30:05,680 --> 02:30:08,600
Speaker 4: but for literally, you know, no pretext. It was they

2503
02:30:08,640 --> 02:30:12,760
Speaker 4: had they had like twelve thousand pounds worth of signs

2504
02:30:12,800 --> 02:30:15,119
Speaker 4: in a van and they were they were all wrapped

2505
02:30:15,200 --> 02:30:19,480
Speaker 4: up in yeah, just like rope rope, and the pretext

2506
02:30:19,480 --> 02:30:21,160
Speaker 4: for the arrest was that the rope was a lock

2507
02:30:21,200 --> 02:30:23,640
Speaker 4: on device that could be used to you know, I

2508
02:30:23,640 --> 02:30:26,720
Speaker 4: don't know, like jump in front of the procession and

2509
02:30:27,640 --> 02:30:29,320
Speaker 4: tie yourself with rope to the road.

2510
02:30:29,520 --> 02:30:30,680
Speaker 6: I really don't know.

2511
02:30:30,680 --> 02:30:34,240
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, from what I could tell just from the

2512
02:30:34,240 --> 02:30:37,120
Speaker 1: coverage I've read, if their protest had gone the way

2513
02:30:37,160 --> 02:30:40,040
Speaker 1: they planned it, it would have been like a show,

2514
02:30:40,120 --> 02:30:42,160
Speaker 1: a visible show that there were people who didn't like

2515
02:30:42,200 --> 02:30:44,720
Speaker 1: the monarchy, but it would not have caused it like

2516
02:30:44,879 --> 02:30:47,359
Speaker 1: they would not have this. These people were not planning

2517
02:30:47,400 --> 02:30:51,000
Speaker 1: to like burn down any public buildings or you know,

2518
02:30:51,080 --> 02:30:53,800
Speaker 1: smash car windows or stop a road. Not that I'm

2519
02:30:53,920 --> 02:30:57,520
Speaker 1: specifically condemning that behavior, but I'm just stating this. This

2520
02:30:57,640 --> 02:31:00,160
Speaker 1: was not the state cracking down on people because they

2521
02:31:00,200 --> 02:31:02,480
Speaker 1: were afraid of a riot. This was the state cracking

2522
02:31:02,520 --> 02:31:05,800
Speaker 1: down on people because they didn't want the display of

2523
02:31:05,879 --> 02:31:08,879
Speaker 1: any kind of descent to exist.

2524
02:31:10,440 --> 02:31:13,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, that's where we're at in this country.

2525
02:31:13,800 --> 02:31:17,039
Speaker 4: And to be honest, the arrest of those organizers was

2526
02:31:17,080 --> 02:31:18,960
Speaker 4: the best thing that could have happened for the movement,

2527
02:31:19,959 --> 02:31:22,920
Speaker 4: because you know, what it really did was just shine

2528
02:31:22,959 --> 02:31:25,800
Speaker 4: a light that it was impossible to ignore and in

2529
02:31:25,800 --> 02:31:28,680
Speaker 4: some ways kind of over shadowed the coronation. Really was

2530
02:31:29,879 --> 02:31:32,320
Speaker 4: far more than any speech that Graham Smith you know,

2531
02:31:32,560 --> 02:31:36,959
Speaker 4: was planning to give, you know, just so overtly that

2532
02:31:36,959 --> 02:31:40,520
Speaker 4: that there is no acceptable form of descent. Now, the

2533
02:31:40,680 --> 02:31:44,959
Speaker 4: very concept is so distasteful to Yeah, our aristocracy that

2534
02:31:45,480 --> 02:31:46,519
Speaker 4: it's banned.

2535
02:31:47,000 --> 02:31:49,840
Speaker 1: And I really appreciate your ability to kind of see

2536
02:31:50,440 --> 02:31:54,360
Speaker 1: the upside, the tactical upside in that, because I think

2537
02:31:54,400 --> 02:31:57,120
Speaker 1: it is true. I doubt I would have heard about

2538
02:31:57,120 --> 02:32:00,440
Speaker 1: that protest if it had gone as the organizer's plan, right,

2539
02:32:00,720 --> 02:32:02,280
Speaker 1: because it would have just been Yeah, there's some people

2540
02:32:02,280 --> 02:32:04,800
Speaker 1: who don't like the monarchy in the UK. That doesn't

2541
02:32:04,840 --> 02:32:08,720
Speaker 1: surprise me at all, but seeing it was like everywhere

2542
02:32:08,720 --> 02:32:10,720
Speaker 1: all over my social media. I got sent it by

2543
02:32:10,800 --> 02:32:14,879
Speaker 1: multiple friends, by a family member because the state decided

2544
02:32:14,879 --> 02:32:18,039
Speaker 1: to go after these people, And I do think I

2545
02:32:18,040 --> 02:32:22,080
Speaker 1: think it's also from just a standpoint when you're talking

2546
02:32:22,080 --> 02:32:25,360
Speaker 1: about a struggle with as long odds as kind of

2547
02:32:25,520 --> 02:32:30,640
Speaker 1: struggling against the monarchy in the United Kingdom, which is

2548
02:32:31,080 --> 02:32:33,920
Speaker 1: you are talking about like the most entrenched power structure

2549
02:32:33,959 --> 02:32:39,480
Speaker 1: outside of the Vatican, right, Basically, Yeah, when you're talking

2550
02:32:39,480 --> 02:32:42,200
Speaker 1: about that, it is so important to be able to

2551
02:32:42,320 --> 02:32:45,760
Speaker 1: look at moments like this and see the upside on

2552
02:32:45,840 --> 02:32:49,400
Speaker 1: them rather than just rather than just kind of feel

2553
02:32:49,400 --> 02:32:52,200
Speaker 1: the boot all the time. Otherwise you're not going to

2554
02:32:52,240 --> 02:32:55,080
Speaker 1: have the endurance to keep fighting.

2555
02:32:55,920 --> 02:32:59,040
Speaker 6: You know, for me with specifically with the eggs.

2556
02:33:00,360 --> 02:33:03,000
Speaker 4: I was I've been conscious the whole time that the

2557
02:33:03,040 --> 02:33:08,280
Speaker 4: backlash and the you know, disproportionate state reaction would speak

2558
02:33:08,320 --> 02:33:10,880
Speaker 4: more than my own actions. So, for example, one of

2559
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:13,560
Speaker 4: the reasons why I think, you know, it went pretty

2560
02:33:13,600 --> 02:33:15,080
Speaker 4: viral when I when I threw the eggs in the

2561
02:33:15,120 --> 02:33:19,760
Speaker 4: first place, I was a bit surprised by by how

2562
02:33:19,800 --> 02:33:23,680
Speaker 4: it went kind of quite internationally. But but but you know,

2563
02:33:23,879 --> 02:33:27,640
Speaker 4: so the fact, so my bail conditions were between between

2564
02:33:27,640 --> 02:33:30,520
Speaker 4: my arrest and my trial were that I wasn't allowed

2565
02:33:30,520 --> 02:33:34,280
Speaker 4: to carry eggs in public. Yeah, I know. And so

2566
02:33:34,360 --> 02:33:38,400
Speaker 4: that is in itself like so absurd that it's like, right.

2567
02:33:39,360 --> 02:33:41,280
Speaker 1: I gotta know, is there like a provision for if

2568
02:33:41,320 --> 02:33:43,440
Speaker 1: you're going home from the store or are you just

2569
02:33:43,560 --> 02:33:44,039
Speaker 1: are you just.

2570
02:33:46,000 --> 02:33:48,160
Speaker 4: So so So the copper who was literally just like

2571
02:33:48,240 --> 02:33:50,280
Speaker 4: making this up at the station says like, okay, so

2572
02:33:50,320 --> 02:33:52,600
Speaker 4: your bail condition is you're not allowed within five hundred

2573
02:33:52,640 --> 02:33:54,200
Speaker 4: meters of the king, you're not allowed to carry eggs

2574
02:33:54,200 --> 02:33:56,800
Speaker 4: in public. And then he goes like, oh, actually, like

2575
02:33:56,920 --> 02:33:58,600
Speaker 4: what was if he wants to buy some eggs And

2576
02:33:58,600 --> 02:34:00,680
Speaker 4: they're like okay, So they changed it so it's you're

2577
02:34:00,680 --> 02:34:02,600
Speaker 4: allowed to carry eggs as long as you're going home

2578
02:34:02,640 --> 02:34:09,160
Speaker 4: from the shops and you've got the receipt. And I

2579
02:34:09,160 --> 02:34:12,040
Speaker 4: think that was a more viral than me actually doing it,

2580
02:34:12,040 --> 02:34:13,920
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like people were like, you know,

2581
02:34:14,680 --> 02:34:16,480
Speaker 4: that's that's that's Britain for you.

2582
02:34:16,560 --> 02:34:18,120
Speaker 6: Have you got a license for those eggs?

2583
02:34:18,200 --> 02:34:22,039
Speaker 1: You know, I'm imagining you like sliding down an alleyway

2584
02:34:22,080 --> 02:34:24,680
Speaker 1: with like a like a like a nineteen forty style

2585
02:34:24,760 --> 02:34:27,400
Speaker 1: shoulder holster, but with just like eggs under each year.

2586
02:34:28,240 --> 02:34:33,280
Speaker 4: Yeah and so and so you know when I so, so,

2587
02:34:33,320 --> 02:34:36,520
Speaker 4: I had my trial, you know, which was for yeah,

2588
02:34:36,600 --> 02:34:43,160
Speaker 4: threatening behavior that made someone fear imminent violence. In the

2589
02:34:43,160 --> 02:34:47,160
Speaker 4: wake of that, like I was convicted, I narrowly avoided

2590
02:34:47,200 --> 02:34:49,080
Speaker 4: six months in prison, which is the sentence that I

2591
02:34:49,080 --> 02:34:54,120
Speaker 4: thought I was gone, yeah, yeah, and so, so you know,

2592
02:34:55,560 --> 02:34:57,520
Speaker 4: in my trial, you know, I had the option to

2593
02:34:57,840 --> 02:35:01,440
Speaker 4: either downplay what I as being like, oh, it's not.

2594
02:35:01,440 --> 02:35:03,200
Speaker 6: Really violence, it's just an egg.

2595
02:35:03,360 --> 02:35:06,200
Speaker 4: But then of course, you know, legally it was you know,

2596
02:35:06,400 --> 02:35:07,960
Speaker 4: that could just councel as a soul. But then I

2597
02:35:08,040 --> 02:35:10,720
Speaker 4: chose it instead to say, okay, yeah, it was violence,

2598
02:35:11,040 --> 02:35:15,080
Speaker 4: but it was legitimate violence because it was necessary to

2599
02:35:15,200 --> 02:35:19,959
Speaker 4: resist the far greater violence of the British state, you know,

2600
02:35:20,120 --> 02:35:22,640
Speaker 4: citing the historic impact of colonialism.

2601
02:35:23,000 --> 02:35:26,320
Speaker 1: He's saying current foreign policy like the King personally negotiating

2602
02:35:26,360 --> 02:35:28,480
Speaker 1: weapons deals with Saudi Arabia.

2603
02:35:28,520 --> 02:35:31,080
Speaker 4: And then also you know, climate breakdown and the way

2604
02:35:31,080 --> 02:35:33,800
Speaker 4: in which by continuing to invest in fossil fuels global

2605
02:35:33,800 --> 02:35:36,400
Speaker 4: South like intentionally, and so therefore, you know, I was

2606
02:35:36,400 --> 02:35:38,520
Speaker 4: basically defending the right of you know, acting in defense

2607
02:35:38,560 --> 02:35:40,480
Speaker 4: of others with violence. I'm glad I did it, and

2608
02:35:40,879 --> 02:35:44,560
Speaker 4: I don't done much worse. So in the end, actually

2609
02:35:44,600 --> 02:35:46,480
Speaker 4: I got one hundred hours. I got one hundred hours

2610
02:35:46,480 --> 02:35:51,600
Speaker 4: of community service, which was extreme, you know, getting away

2611
02:35:51,640 --> 02:35:52,400
Speaker 4: with it essentially.

2612
02:35:52,520 --> 02:35:55,000
Speaker 1: So, yeah, did you get us? I wondered, was it

2613
02:35:55,160 --> 02:35:57,760
Speaker 1: just a situation? Did you just get lucky with a

2614
02:35:57,879 --> 02:36:02,840
Speaker 1: judge or like, because that's surprising. I'm surprised that like

2615
02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:05,720
Speaker 1: that that worked as well as it did in a

2616
02:36:05,720 --> 02:36:06,400
Speaker 1: positive way.

2617
02:36:08,400 --> 02:36:10,000
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, yeah, me too.

2618
02:36:10,120 --> 02:36:10,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2619
02:36:10,320 --> 02:36:12,199
Speaker 6: I mean I had a big bag.

2620
02:36:12,000 --> 02:36:13,440
Speaker 4: With me with all my light undies in because I

2621
02:36:13,440 --> 02:36:17,160
Speaker 4: thought I was going down, you know, And I think

2622
02:36:17,520 --> 02:36:21,039
Speaker 4: there was partly, yes, getting lucky with the judge. Partly

2623
02:36:21,480 --> 02:36:23,360
Speaker 4: I think they were in a really difficult position and

2624
02:36:23,360 --> 02:36:25,360
Speaker 4: this is what I wanted to put them in essentially,

2625
02:36:25,400 --> 02:36:29,200
Speaker 4: which is that following all of that the money, you know,

2626
02:36:29,520 --> 02:36:31,080
Speaker 4: in the lead up to the coronation, there was a

2627
02:36:31,080 --> 02:36:33,760
Speaker 4: lot of negative press around around the king and the monarchy,

2628
02:36:34,320 --> 02:36:37,600
Speaker 4: and they had a choice between either sending me to

2629
02:36:37,600 --> 02:36:42,640
Speaker 4: prison and looking extremely authoritarian and blowing out proportion, or

2630
02:36:42,959 --> 02:36:45,200
Speaker 4: letting me get away with it. And you know, I

2631
02:36:45,240 --> 02:36:48,200
Speaker 4: think they chose to minimize the negative press. You know,

2632
02:36:48,480 --> 02:36:52,320
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously, supposedly there's an independent judiciary and there

2633
02:36:52,320 --> 02:36:54,920
Speaker 4: would have been no conversations with the palace and the

2634
02:36:54,959 --> 02:36:57,240
Speaker 4: police about the charging procedures.

2635
02:36:57,240 --> 02:36:58,440
Speaker 6: But that's that's a lot of rubbish.

2636
02:36:58,520 --> 02:37:01,560
Speaker 4: But you know, yeah, and so but I think I

2637
02:37:01,600 --> 02:37:04,039
Speaker 4: wanted to put them in that difficult position because I

2638
02:37:04,120 --> 02:37:06,200
Speaker 4: knew that, like I said, their backlash would look worse

2639
02:37:06,280 --> 02:37:08,280
Speaker 4: than what I did. And so so when I chose

2640
02:37:08,320 --> 02:37:12,160
Speaker 4: to go to the coronation following following my conviction, you know,

2641
02:37:12,640 --> 02:37:15,600
Speaker 4: I had to tell my probation officer, look, I'm going

2642
02:37:15,600 --> 02:37:17,920
Speaker 4: to the coronation. I am going I'm going to peacefully protest.

2643
02:37:17,920 --> 02:37:20,400
Speaker 4: I'm just going to be there. Deal with it, you know,

2644
02:37:20,520 --> 02:37:25,160
Speaker 4: And basically he told me that the counter Terrorism Department

2645
02:37:26,160 --> 02:37:29,640
Speaker 4: had was seeking an injunction from the courts to stop

2646
02:37:29,640 --> 02:37:33,120
Speaker 4: me attending, but then the court had ruled that no,

2647
02:37:33,360 --> 02:37:35,120
Speaker 4: I was allowed to attend. I'd already been given my

2648
02:37:35,120 --> 02:37:38,080
Speaker 4: punishment and he wasn't going to put any further conditions

2649
02:37:38,080 --> 02:37:39,840
Speaker 4: on me, not be allowing allowed to go.

2650
02:37:40,560 --> 02:37:42,400
Speaker 6: So so but I knew that if I.

2651
02:37:42,400 --> 02:37:45,160
Speaker 4: Went to the coronation they would arrest me anyway and

2652
02:37:45,160 --> 02:37:47,400
Speaker 4: it would make them look bad, you know. And then

2653
02:37:47,400 --> 02:37:49,039
Speaker 4: they they did. You know, I was as well as

2654
02:37:49,080 --> 02:37:52,280
Speaker 4: well as all of the organizers. I was there, you know,

2655
02:37:52,480 --> 02:37:55,840
Speaker 4: just not my king blah blah blah. And then and

2656
02:37:55,840 --> 02:37:57,640
Speaker 4: then and then I look up and there's a little

2657
02:37:57,680 --> 02:37:59,959
Speaker 4: watchtower that they had erected in the center of Trafalgarscoo,

2658
02:38:00,240 --> 02:38:03,600
Speaker 4: and I just saw that there was about seven police

2659
02:38:03,640 --> 02:38:07,160
Speaker 4: officers just all like staring at me and filming me

2660
02:38:08,240 --> 02:38:10,200
Speaker 4: from you know, like two hundred meters away. And I

2661
02:38:10,240 --> 02:38:12,959
Speaker 4: was like, oh, okay, they're gonna arrest me now. So yeah,

2662
02:38:13,000 --> 02:38:14,920
Speaker 4: I gave my phone and well it's to my brother

2663
02:38:14,959 --> 02:38:17,680
Speaker 4: and then smile. And then within seconds, within seconds, they

2664
02:38:17,680 --> 02:38:20,160
Speaker 4: were just dragging me out, like you know, in handcuffs

2665
02:38:20,400 --> 02:38:22,199
Speaker 4: from the center of a of a crowd of about,

2666
02:38:22,240 --> 02:38:25,440
Speaker 4: you know, twenty thousand people, and I honestly couldn't have

2667
02:38:25,520 --> 02:38:29,840
Speaker 4: looked like more like overtly fascist if they tried, and

2668
02:38:29,840 --> 02:38:31,760
Speaker 4: and that was kind of the point, really is.

2669
02:38:34,920 --> 02:38:40,320
Speaker 1: Man? I uh, such a wild story, but I'm glad

2670
02:38:40,400 --> 02:38:43,560
Speaker 1: you did what you did. I'm impressed by the amount

2671
02:38:43,560 --> 02:38:46,959
Speaker 1: of thought that kind of went into the optics of it,

2672
02:38:47,560 --> 02:38:49,840
Speaker 1: because it's it's really the only way to turn an

2673
02:38:49,840 --> 02:38:54,520
Speaker 1: egg into an effective weapon, right is by very careful planning.

2674
02:38:56,120 --> 02:38:59,680
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious where do you see what do

2675
02:38:59,680 --> 02:39:04,560
Speaker 1: you see the route forward for both not just kind

2676
02:39:04,600 --> 02:39:08,640
Speaker 1: of opposing the monarchy in your country, but sort of

2677
02:39:08,680 --> 02:39:12,720
Speaker 1: opposing the overreach by the police. This is a problem

2678
02:39:12,840 --> 02:39:15,840
Speaker 1: in more places than the United Kingdom, but y'all are

2679
02:39:15,920 --> 02:39:18,760
Speaker 1: kind of on one of the cutting edges of sort

2680
02:39:18,760 --> 02:39:24,520
Speaker 1: of global attempts by law enforcement and its supporters in

2681
02:39:24,600 --> 02:39:29,520
Speaker 1: the state to effectively make dissent impossible ahead of what

2682
02:39:29,560 --> 02:39:32,039
Speaker 1: everyone knows is going to be kind of a heightening

2683
02:39:32,080 --> 02:39:35,480
Speaker 1: period of climate based activism.

2684
02:39:35,800 --> 02:39:39,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so with the climate activist movement in the UK,

2685
02:39:39,320 --> 02:39:43,320
Speaker 4: you know, we've seen extinction rebellion active since like twenty eighteen,

2686
02:39:43,720 --> 02:39:47,040
Speaker 4: and I've been you know, arrested multiple times with them

2687
02:39:47,080 --> 02:39:48,760
Speaker 4: at different actions.

2688
02:39:49,320 --> 02:39:50,920
Speaker 5: You know, the.

2689
02:39:50,840 --> 02:39:55,680
Speaker 4: Part of their strategy was that mass arrests, you know,

2690
02:39:56,600 --> 02:40:01,600
Speaker 4: blocking roads, nonviolent direct action and civil disobedience would force

2691
02:40:01,640 --> 02:40:04,119
Speaker 4: the government to take action. And I think really we're

2692
02:40:04,160 --> 02:40:08,200
Speaker 4: seeing that strategy like having run its course. And and

2693
02:40:08,280 --> 02:40:10,320
Speaker 4: and I think for a while now that's been evident

2694
02:40:10,320 --> 02:40:13,320
Speaker 4: that it wasn't working because they've just banned the types

2695
02:40:13,320 --> 02:40:16,680
Speaker 4: of protests that we were doing. And also it was

2696
02:40:16,800 --> 02:40:21,600
Speaker 4: essentially quite naive to believe that, yeah, oh, you know,

2697
02:40:21,600 --> 02:40:24,000
Speaker 4: if we cause enough disruption, they're just going to put

2698
02:40:24,040 --> 02:40:27,560
Speaker 4: aside all of the you know, lobbying interests and their

2699
02:40:27,640 --> 02:40:31,720
Speaker 4: literal role in upholding capitalism to just go, oh, no, okay,

2700
02:40:31,800 --> 02:40:33,960
Speaker 4: fair enough that they're blocked and roads, we are going

2701
02:40:34,000 --> 02:40:38,040
Speaker 4: to like radically transform society to deal with climate breakdown.

2702
02:40:38,959 --> 02:40:41,240
Speaker 6: That was never going to work, you know, realistically. And

2703
02:40:41,320 --> 02:40:42,640
Speaker 6: so so.

2704
02:40:42,680 --> 02:40:46,560
Speaker 4: Even though you know, we've seen every time they passed

2705
02:40:46,600 --> 02:40:50,680
Speaker 4: these these new legislation, there are there's a there's a backlash,

2706
02:40:50,720 --> 02:40:53,600
Speaker 4: there's some marches, there's some protests that fizzle out, and

2707
02:40:54,200 --> 02:40:57,880
Speaker 4: the state just keep consolidating more and more power, and

2708
02:40:58,160 --> 02:41:00,720
Speaker 4: people keep getting more and more dis illusioned with.

2709
02:41:01,200 --> 02:41:04,360
Speaker 1: He says, with what an effective strategy of resistance looks like.

2710
02:41:04,440 --> 02:41:06,800
Speaker 1: And so for me personally, it's something I've been thinking

2711
02:41:06,800 --> 02:41:07,920
Speaker 1: about for a while.

2712
02:41:07,720 --> 02:41:11,039
Speaker 4: Now but recently have is that, you know, we have

2713
02:41:11,120 --> 02:41:14,000
Speaker 4: to stop asking politicians through direct democracy at the local

2714
02:41:14,080 --> 02:41:19,280
Speaker 4: level and essentially you know, using like democratic confederalism, you know,

2715
02:41:19,480 --> 02:41:22,119
Speaker 4: as they're doing Rajava, to to look.

2716
02:41:21,920 --> 02:41:24,760
Speaker 6: At creating a national.

2717
02:41:26,040 --> 02:41:30,080
Speaker 4: Network of people's assemblies that builds dual power outside of

2718
02:41:30,120 --> 02:41:30,520
Speaker 4: the state.

2719
02:41:30,920 --> 02:41:34,720
Speaker 6: Because because, because I think a lot of the problem with.

2720
02:41:34,680 --> 02:41:37,440
Speaker 4: These direct action movements is that they don't have the

2721
02:41:37,520 --> 02:41:40,440
Speaker 4: legitimacy of a democratic mandate, so that even whilst the

2722
02:41:40,440 --> 02:41:44,080
Speaker 4: tactics might be like in some way effective, you know,

2723
02:41:44,320 --> 02:41:47,520
Speaker 4: Extinction Rebellion has always said our message is to say

2724
02:41:47,560 --> 02:41:50,440
Speaker 4: that climate change is a serious threat, but we cannot

2725
02:41:50,440 --> 02:41:53,480
Speaker 4: propose the solutions because we don't have a democratic mandate.

2726
02:41:54,080 --> 02:41:56,959
Speaker 4: But the way to you know, work around that is

2727
02:41:56,959 --> 02:42:00,920
Speaker 4: to build a democratic mandate through holding people's assemblies, creating

2728
02:42:01,000 --> 02:42:05,199
Speaker 4: forums where people can create their own vision, and then

2729
02:42:05,959 --> 02:42:08,560
Speaker 4: direct action can then be used in service of those

2730
02:42:08,560 --> 02:42:10,600
Speaker 4: aims rather than putting the cart before the horse, if

2731
02:42:10,600 --> 02:42:11,120
Speaker 4: that makes sense.

2732
02:42:11,480 --> 02:42:16,080
Speaker 1: No, yeah, I think that that's certainly like one of

2733
02:42:16,120 --> 02:42:20,200
Speaker 1: the more pragmatic ways forward that I think I've seen.

2734
02:42:20,280 --> 02:42:23,680
Speaker 1: You know, we're we're we're always talking about an uphill

2735
02:42:23,760 --> 02:42:26,519
Speaker 1: battle here, and I think kind of the inherent difficulty

2736
02:42:26,680 --> 02:42:33,000
Speaker 1: of fixing any of these bigger problems, particularly fixing the

2737
02:42:34,680 --> 02:42:37,160
Speaker 1: and what we mean is dismantling the systems that are

2738
02:42:37,760 --> 02:42:43,840
Speaker 1: causing climate destruction, like that is such a lopsided battle

2739
02:42:44,040 --> 02:42:47,400
Speaker 1: that I think whenever, whenever you have you present an

2740
02:42:47,440 --> 02:42:50,520
Speaker 1: option to people, because it sounds hard, there's this there's

2741
02:42:50,560 --> 02:42:53,640
Speaker 1: this tendency to just be like, well, you know, we

2742
02:42:53,760 --> 02:42:56,400
Speaker 1: have to go by the thing that we know, which

2743
02:42:56,440 --> 02:42:59,000
Speaker 1: is just kind of like trying to vote in better people.

2744
02:43:00,440 --> 02:43:02,360
Speaker 1: If we can take a lesson out of the last

2745
02:43:02,520 --> 02:43:08,720
Speaker 1: thirty years, it's that the standard electoral methods cannot provide

2746
02:43:08,760 --> 02:43:11,879
Speaker 1: the solution to climate change, like they simply aren't going

2747
02:43:11,959 --> 02:43:14,840
Speaker 1: to do it. And I think the police in a

2748
02:43:14,840 --> 02:43:16,880
Speaker 1: lot of kind I mean in the United States right

2749
02:43:16,879 --> 02:43:20,640
Speaker 1: here in one of my old hometown's, Austin, Texas, they

2750
02:43:20,760 --> 02:43:24,600
Speaker 1: just voted on a police accountability bill that the police

2751
02:43:24,600 --> 02:43:27,680
Speaker 1: have basically said we're not going to abide by. Like

2752
02:43:27,760 --> 02:43:29,880
Speaker 1: this is and you can find stories like that all

2753
02:43:29,920 --> 02:43:31,920
Speaker 1: over the United States and other parts of the world,

2754
02:43:32,040 --> 02:43:35,120
Speaker 1: Like the kind of the hope that you can just

2755
02:43:35,200 --> 02:43:37,720
Speaker 1: sort of like put in your however long it takes

2756
02:43:37,720 --> 02:43:40,600
Speaker 1: you to do voting in your country or city or whatever,

2757
02:43:41,120 --> 02:43:46,800
Speaker 1: and that that's the method forward. It's it seems more

2758
02:43:46,840 --> 02:43:51,440
Speaker 1: realistic because it's more familiar. But I think the vision

2759
02:43:51,480 --> 02:43:55,640
Speaker 1: you're putting forward, not to say that it's as simple

2760
02:43:55,720 --> 02:43:59,160
Speaker 1: that simple, but like it's effortful. And I think that

2761
02:43:59,520 --> 02:44:03,800
Speaker 1: whenever someone's positing something like that that requires that kind

2762
02:44:03,840 --> 02:44:06,400
Speaker 1: of like effort from a large enough segment of the population,

2763
02:44:07,200 --> 02:44:10,480
Speaker 1: I see that as inherently more realistic than hoping that

2764
02:44:10,520 --> 02:44:13,920
Speaker 1: we can just all kind of keep putting our twenty

2765
02:44:13,959 --> 02:44:16,640
Speaker 1: minutes of voting a year towards solving the problem and

2766
02:44:16,680 --> 02:44:17,680
Speaker 1: expect it to get better.

2767
02:44:18,560 --> 02:44:20,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's like one of those things with you know,

2768
02:44:20,959 --> 02:44:24,959
Speaker 4: like the idea that imagining prison abolition, you have to

2769
02:44:25,000 --> 02:44:28,800
Speaker 4: imagine a world where that's possible, and that requires changing everything, right,

2770
02:44:29,520 --> 02:44:32,880
Speaker 4: And I think that applies to tackling climate change and

2771
02:44:33,680 --> 02:44:36,840
Speaker 4: implementing direct democracy. So you know, if you're talking about

2772
02:44:36,840 --> 02:44:39,720
Speaker 4: a system where people can turn it to a forum

2773
02:44:40,120 --> 02:44:42,480
Speaker 4: in a local community center, or you know, church or

2774
02:44:42,520 --> 02:44:45,920
Speaker 4: whatever once a week. Then people say, well that's not

2775
02:44:45,959 --> 02:44:48,720
Speaker 4: going to be accessible, you know, because so it's like, well,

2776
02:44:48,760 --> 02:44:50,640
Speaker 4: you're right, we'll probably have to set up a system

2777
02:44:50,640 --> 02:44:55,000
Speaker 4: of mutual aid that supports you know, working class people

2778
02:44:55,080 --> 02:44:56,680
Speaker 4: to be able to attend those kind of events.

2779
02:44:57,200 --> 02:45:00,600
Speaker 6: And you know, yeah, it's like, how are you going

2780
02:45:00,640 --> 02:45:01,040
Speaker 6: to pay for it?

2781
02:45:01,080 --> 02:45:02,880
Speaker 4: And it's like, well, you're right, we're probably going to

2782
02:45:02,920 --> 02:45:05,080
Speaker 4: have to, you know, set up a solidarity economy where

2783
02:45:05,280 --> 02:45:08,240
Speaker 4: you know, if we decide, for example, that we want

2784
02:45:08,600 --> 02:45:13,400
Speaker 4: free public transport then and and bus drivers to be

2785
02:45:13,400 --> 02:45:15,680
Speaker 4: paid paid a fair wage, you know, then you're going

2786
02:45:15,760 --> 02:45:17,920
Speaker 4: to have to look at a whole system whereby people

2787
02:45:18,320 --> 02:45:21,720
Speaker 4: are potentially getting free housing in return for being a

2788
02:45:21,720 --> 02:45:25,640
Speaker 4: bus driver, free food that comes from the local food cooperative.

2789
02:45:26,320 --> 02:45:31,320
Speaker 4: And you're like, I say, building dual power rather than

2790
02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:35,600
Speaker 4: attacking the system head on, because in a battle, in

2791
02:45:35,640 --> 02:45:38,199
Speaker 4: a pitch street battle in this country, at least between

2792
02:45:38,280 --> 02:45:39,800
Speaker 4: us and the police, we're going to lose. And I

2793
02:45:39,800 --> 02:45:43,160
Speaker 4: think that, you know, we need to think smarter because

2794
02:45:43,240 --> 02:45:47,840
Speaker 4: at this point they haven't yet made organizing public meetings illegal,

2795
02:45:48,160 --> 02:45:49,600
Speaker 4: but you know they probably will at some point.

2796
02:45:49,879 --> 02:45:50,560
Speaker 6: And then it's.

2797
02:45:52,120 --> 02:45:54,000
Speaker 4: The only way we'll be able to resist that is

2798
02:45:54,000 --> 02:45:56,000
Speaker 4: if we've had some public meetings to decide how we're

2799
02:45:56,040 --> 02:45:57,720
Speaker 4: going to do it, because at the moment, we haven't

2800
02:45:57,720 --> 02:46:00,560
Speaker 4: even had the meeting to decide what our collective strategies

2801
02:46:00,760 --> 02:46:05,040
Speaker 4: because there is so much atomization between between these different

2802
02:46:05,160 --> 02:46:09,760
Speaker 4: like you know, left wing social movements and civil society

2803
02:46:09,840 --> 02:46:14,080
Speaker 4: organizations and so much. Sometimes at heart just depresses me

2804
02:46:14,120 --> 02:46:17,600
Speaker 4: to think about how many people are working for environmental

2805
02:46:17,680 --> 02:46:20,520
Speaker 4: charities or whatever, where all of their work and their

2806
02:46:20,560 --> 02:46:26,760
Speaker 4: research is going towards creating policy proposals for politicians to ignore.

2807
02:46:27,320 --> 02:46:30,560
Speaker 4: It's like if you were putting that amount of energy

2808
02:46:30,600 --> 02:46:34,920
Speaker 4: and your enthusiasm in service of the vision that's been

2809
02:46:34,959 --> 02:46:40,200
Speaker 4: created democratically by the people, then we don't need to

2810
02:46:40,800 --> 02:46:44,520
Speaker 4: petition anyone to make the changes we need because we'll

2811
02:46:44,520 --> 02:46:49,760
Speaker 4: have organized effectively enough to do the things that will

2812
02:46:49,800 --> 02:46:53,320
Speaker 4: really challenge state power, for example, like a mass rent

2813
02:46:53,360 --> 02:46:54,720
Speaker 4: strike and a general strike.

2814
02:46:55,840 --> 02:46:59,080
Speaker 1: Or if those efforts that are currently going towards putting

2815
02:46:59,080 --> 02:47:02,080
Speaker 1: policy papers on desks where there'll be ignored or neutered,

2816
02:47:02,720 --> 02:47:07,600
Speaker 1: was going towards putting forth policy that is then being

2817
02:47:07,680 --> 02:47:10,560
Speaker 1: backed by a movement that is carrying out rent strikes,

2818
02:47:10,560 --> 02:47:13,640
Speaker 1: that is putting out together work stoppages, that is blocking roads,

2819
02:47:14,120 --> 02:47:17,680
Speaker 1: that's able to actually throttle some of the life support

2820
02:47:17,760 --> 02:47:22,560
Speaker 1: system of the state. Well, then suddenly you're not looking

2821
02:47:22,680 --> 02:47:25,400
Speaker 1: at a recommendation a white paper that's going to wind

2822
02:47:25,480 --> 02:47:28,160
Speaker 1: up on some bloodless bureaucrats desk, or that that's going

2823
02:47:28,240 --> 02:47:31,280
Speaker 1: to wind up getting cut to pieces in Parliament. You

2824
02:47:32,520 --> 02:47:35,400
Speaker 1: have something that has teeth behind it, right, the kind

2825
02:47:35,440 --> 02:47:39,600
Speaker 1: of force that might be able to make change. I

2826
02:47:39,600 --> 02:47:43,600
Speaker 1: don't know. Again, when you talk about this kind of stuff,

2827
02:47:43,680 --> 02:47:46,000
Speaker 1: you have to contrast it with what we've been trying

2828
02:47:46,040 --> 02:47:47,680
Speaker 1: so far, which is nothing.

2829
02:47:49,360 --> 02:47:53,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, diversity of tactics is huge, and

2830
02:47:53,400 --> 02:47:55,600
Speaker 4: so you know a lot of these dark action groups

2831
02:47:55,640 --> 02:47:57,120
Speaker 4: in the UK, like just Stop Oil that have been

2832
02:47:57,120 --> 02:48:01,120
Speaker 4: blocking motorways and stuff, have received like you know, huge criticism,

2833
02:48:01,240 --> 02:48:03,520
Speaker 4: especially from people who you know, really ought to be

2834
02:48:03,600 --> 02:48:09,560
Speaker 4: allies and at least recognize the the that this action

2835
02:48:09,640 --> 02:48:11,600
Speaker 4: is coming out of a place of desperation because people

2836
02:48:11,600 --> 02:48:14,760
Speaker 4: cannot see a better way. Yeah, and you know there

2837
02:48:14,800 --> 02:48:17,640
Speaker 4: was a there's someone from just Stop Oil who just

2838
02:48:17,680 --> 02:48:23,280
Speaker 4: got three years in prison for blocking a motorway and

2839
02:48:23,280 --> 02:48:26,560
Speaker 4: and that's that's insane, you know, and you know on

2840
02:48:26,600 --> 02:48:28,560
Speaker 4: some level that person is it is a martyr, and

2841
02:48:28,920 --> 02:48:30,959
Speaker 4: you've got to hold your take your hat off, and

2842
02:48:31,000 --> 02:48:33,640
Speaker 4: say what that has done is shine a spotlight again

2843
02:48:33,800 --> 02:48:36,800
Speaker 4: on state authority in a way that you know, if

2844
02:48:37,040 --> 02:48:39,000
Speaker 4: they have these laws on the books, but they never

2845
02:48:39,040 --> 02:48:40,920
Speaker 4: have to use them, then it's easy to forget that

2846
02:48:40,959 --> 02:48:42,720
Speaker 4: they exist and have that power.

2847
02:48:45,360 --> 02:48:47,240
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk a little bit about cooperation?

2848
02:48:47,440 --> 02:48:47,640
Speaker 8: U K.

2849
02:48:49,520 --> 02:48:52,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So so you know, for me, I'm I'm

2850
02:48:52,879 --> 02:48:56,360
Speaker 4: a democratic confederalist, you know, I mean or like you know,

2851
02:48:56,600 --> 02:49:03,480
Speaker 4: the Rajarvant project using direct markcracy, but also confederating that

2852
02:49:03,640 --> 02:49:06,960
Speaker 4: up to sort of replace the state with a form

2853
02:49:07,000 --> 02:49:11,720
Speaker 4: of governance that's democratic. And you know, I also I'm

2854
02:49:11,720 --> 02:49:15,039
Speaker 4: a big believer in cosmocracy, right, which is the proper

2855
02:49:15,080 --> 02:49:16,320
Speaker 4: name for global democracy.

2856
02:49:16,720 --> 02:49:18,879
Speaker 1: He says, essentially, you know, I wrote about this while

2857
02:49:18,920 --> 02:49:20,680
Speaker 1: I was doing my masters.

2858
02:49:20,720 --> 02:49:25,280
Speaker 4: And that is how potentially, if we were implementing this

2859
02:49:25,360 --> 02:49:28,480
Speaker 4: system world, we can use the internet to confederate to

2860
02:49:28,520 --> 02:49:30,800
Speaker 4: a global level, you know, and really start to tackle

2861
02:49:31,680 --> 02:49:36,440
Speaker 4: the issues that we collectively face as humanity, which is

2862
02:49:36,480 --> 02:49:39,400
Speaker 4: like the fact that our separation from nature and the

2863
02:49:39,480 --> 02:49:42,840
Speaker 4: rise of fascism, is is threatening angers with extinction, and

2864
02:49:42,920 --> 02:49:45,360
Speaker 4: so yeah, I'm a citizen of Earth and.

2865
02:49:46,959 --> 02:49:49,080
Speaker 6: You know that's what motivates a lot of my actions.

2866
02:49:49,600 --> 02:49:50,800
Speaker 4: But you know, in some ways I've been kind of

2867
02:49:50,800 --> 02:49:54,320
Speaker 4: stewing on these ideas alone, and so recently I met

2868
02:49:54,360 --> 02:49:59,280
Speaker 4: a group called Cooperation UK, who are you know, connecting.

2869
02:50:00,480 --> 02:50:03,760
Speaker 4: I can often get bogged down in abstract theory about

2870
02:50:03,760 --> 02:50:05,760
Speaker 4: like how you know, changing the whole world and never

2871
02:50:05,760 --> 02:50:06,920
Speaker 4: actually doing anything practical.

2872
02:50:07,000 --> 02:50:07,800
Speaker 6: That's my downfall.

2873
02:50:08,120 --> 02:50:10,760
Speaker 4: But you know, you need to start a movement like

2874
02:50:10,840 --> 02:50:17,320
Speaker 4: that locally, and and so they're copying Cooperation Jackson, you know,

2875
02:50:17,400 --> 02:50:22,879
Speaker 4: who have been incredibly effective, you know, setting up people's assemblies,

2876
02:50:23,120 --> 02:50:28,279
Speaker 4: mutual aid economy in Jackson and also like a community

2877
02:50:28,360 --> 02:50:28,920
Speaker 4: land trust.

2878
02:50:29,040 --> 02:50:29,840
Speaker 6: You know, they own.

2879
02:50:29,800 --> 02:50:34,280
Speaker 4: Like like fifty different buildings, you know, that are used

2880
02:50:34,440 --> 02:50:37,959
Speaker 4: collectively by the community. And this group are planning to

2881
02:50:38,000 --> 02:50:40,600
Speaker 4: set that up in Hull, which is just a city

2882
02:50:40,640 --> 02:50:43,680
Speaker 4: in the Northeast that's incredibly deprived. It's got like the

2883
02:50:43,720 --> 02:50:46,440
Speaker 4: lowest voter turnout in the UK, but it also has

2884
02:50:46,440 --> 02:50:50,959
Speaker 4: a thriving network of food banks and you know cooperatives

2885
02:50:51,000 --> 02:50:52,240
Speaker 4: and mutual aid groups.

2886
02:50:52,680 --> 02:50:55,720
Speaker 6: And I think the next step for me is when

2887
02:50:55,800 --> 02:51:01,240
Speaker 6: those those groups send delegates to me, eat together and

2888
02:51:01,280 --> 02:51:05,520
Speaker 6: decide on collective strategy, right, like, because there are so

2889
02:51:05,640 --> 02:51:08,080
Speaker 6: many people doing so much good work, but there's almost

2890
02:51:08,120 --> 02:51:10,800
Speaker 6: like no faith in our own vision, which is that

2891
02:51:10,959 --> 02:51:15,200
Speaker 6: if we're the people you know who are say a

2892
02:51:15,400 --> 02:51:19,439
Speaker 6: union for nurses, then you know, we should be deciding

2893
02:51:20,280 --> 02:51:24,680
Speaker 6: the conditions that exist in healthcare, you know, because who

2894
02:51:24,800 --> 02:51:29,640
Speaker 6: better besides patients and like staff is that to decide

2895
02:51:29,840 --> 02:51:32,720
Speaker 6: the conditions that they that they operate in.

2896
02:51:33,240 --> 02:51:36,480
Speaker 4: And and so yeah, cooperation UK there there are there's

2897
02:51:36,520 --> 02:51:38,280
Speaker 4: a group of us that are moving to Whull.

2898
02:51:38,360 --> 02:51:38,720
Speaker 6: I'm moving.

2899
02:51:38,800 --> 02:51:42,080
Speaker 4: I'm moving next week. I'm really excited about it. And yeah,

2900
02:51:42,120 --> 02:51:44,600
Speaker 4: we're planning to set up lots of local neighborhood assemblies

2901
02:51:45,080 --> 02:51:48,519
Speaker 4: with the intention of within a year holding a citywide

2902
02:51:48,680 --> 02:51:52,480
Speaker 4: people's assembly that can create a shared vision and then

2903
02:51:52,920 --> 02:51:58,000
Speaker 4: and then potentially you know, standing candidates for local council

2904
02:51:58,440 --> 02:52:01,160
Speaker 4: but whose only policy is we will enact.

2905
02:52:01,760 --> 02:52:02,480
Speaker 6: We will give.

2906
02:52:02,360 --> 02:52:04,800
Speaker 4: Power to the people's assemblies and then they can use

2907
02:52:04,840 --> 02:52:10,200
Speaker 4: the you know, financial power of existing institutions to support

2908
02:52:10,200 --> 02:52:11,520
Speaker 4: the transition to a new model.

2909
02:52:12,680 --> 02:52:15,840
Speaker 6: And whilst they're doing that in Hull, you know.

2910
02:52:15,920 --> 02:52:19,359
Speaker 4: The work that I hope to be doing is document

2911
02:52:19,400 --> 02:52:22,920
Speaker 4: in that process the learning, you know, so people can

2912
02:52:23,000 --> 02:52:25,640
Speaker 4: learn from the mistakes and that, you know, and hopefully

2913
02:52:25,640 --> 02:52:28,520
Speaker 4: we can set them up in every city well across

2914
02:52:28,520 --> 02:52:30,880
Speaker 4: the UK, because there are already people who think very

2915
02:52:30,879 --> 02:52:34,120
Speaker 4: similarly and that we're at a time now where that's

2916
02:52:34,160 --> 02:52:37,240
Speaker 4: coalescing into the you know, people are recognizing the need

2917
02:52:37,280 --> 02:52:40,160
Speaker 4: for this new movement with a new strategy that's based

2918
02:52:40,160 --> 02:52:43,400
Speaker 4: around democracy rather than just activism.

2919
02:52:44,160 --> 02:52:46,879
Speaker 6: And yeah, it's really exciting.

2920
02:52:47,480 --> 02:52:52,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's I think that's a worthwhile idea.

2921
02:52:52,680 --> 02:52:58,000
Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's bold and something that I'm

2922
02:52:58,120 --> 02:53:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm glad to see being attempted. Well, it's been really

2923
02:53:01,959 --> 02:53:04,000
Speaker 1: great talking with you today. Did you have anywhere you

2924
02:53:04,040 --> 02:53:07,000
Speaker 1: wanted to direct listeners in order to help if they're

2925
02:53:07,000 --> 02:53:08,920
Speaker 1: interested in what Cooperation UK is doing.

2926
02:53:09,879 --> 02:53:10,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely.

2927
02:53:10,959 --> 02:53:15,120
Speaker 4: So there's there's a crowdfunder that I think there'll be.

2928
02:53:15,160 --> 02:53:17,920
Speaker 6: I believe there'll be a link that you guys can act.

2929
02:53:18,560 --> 02:53:20,560
Speaker 1: He says, and we'll be using that money to set

2930
02:53:20,640 --> 02:53:23,400
Speaker 1: up the People's Assembly and mutual aid networks, but also

2931
02:53:23,440 --> 02:53:26,000
Speaker 1: to create resources that anyone anywhere can use in their

2932
02:53:26,040 --> 02:53:26,880
Speaker 1: local community.

2933
02:53:27,520 --> 02:53:29,920
Speaker 4: And I hope is that, you know, as these groups proliferate,

2934
02:53:30,120 --> 02:53:32,280
Speaker 4: you know, we're going to start reaching out to each other,

2935
02:53:32,680 --> 02:53:38,119
Speaker 4: forming an international solidarity network that is capable of providing

2936
02:53:38,520 --> 02:53:40,480
Speaker 4: like the mutual aid that we that we need to

2937
02:53:40,520 --> 02:53:42,920
Speaker 4: support each other, you know, for example, you know, if

2938
02:53:42,959 --> 02:53:48,959
Speaker 4: we're talking about Palestine or Iran, to provide real, meaningful solidarities,

2939
02:53:49,560 --> 02:53:53,400
Speaker 4: you know, liberation groups will require more organization than just

2940
02:53:53,720 --> 02:53:54,600
Speaker 4: like thoughts and prayers.

2941
02:53:54,600 --> 02:53:59,720
Speaker 1: Really and yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much, Patrick,

2942
02:54:00,560 --> 02:54:03,440
Speaker 1: It has been great talking with you. Good luck as

2943
02:54:03,520 --> 02:54:07,080
Speaker 1: you continue moving forward.

2944
02:54:07,160 --> 02:54:09,280
Speaker 7: And yeah, yeah, thanks very much.

2945
02:54:09,360 --> 02:54:12,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess I should also say I'm on I'm bizarrely,

2946
02:54:13,120 --> 02:54:13,960
Speaker 4: I'm on TikTok.

2947
02:54:14,000 --> 02:54:16,240
Speaker 6: That's the medium I'm using at the moment. I wish

2948
02:54:16,280 --> 02:54:16,720
Speaker 6: it wasn't.

2949
02:54:17,360 --> 02:54:20,520
Speaker 4: I'll probably want to start making more YouTube videos discussing

2950
02:54:20,560 --> 02:54:22,360
Speaker 4: these ideas, so maybe I'll send you a link that

2951
02:54:22,360 --> 02:54:22,960
Speaker 4: you can put in them.

2952
02:54:23,000 --> 02:54:24,880
Speaker 6: This isn't a both show. It's my YouTube channel.

2953
02:54:25,240 --> 02:54:29,920
Speaker 1: Excellent well Patrick tellwell Citizen of Earth YouTube channel and

2954
02:54:30,320 --> 02:54:33,120
Speaker 1: we'll have your TikTok and the description. Thanks again for

2955
02:54:33,160 --> 02:54:37,800
Speaker 1: coming on the show. Everybody go out and you know,

2956
02:54:38,040 --> 02:54:44,519
Speaker 1: acquire eggs. Hey, We'll be back Monday, with more episodes

2957
02:54:44,640 --> 02:54:47,120
Speaker 1: every week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

2958
02:54:47,680 --> 02:54:50,200
Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2959
02:54:50,280 --> 02:54:52,959
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

2960
02:54:53,000 --> 02:54:55,240
Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2961
02:54:55,240 --> 02:54:58,800
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2962
02:54:59,080 --> 02:55:01,199
Speaker 4: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

2963
02:55:01,280 --> 02:55:04,280
Speaker 4: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

2964
02:55:04,480 --> 02:55:05,320
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.