Speaker 1: Also media. Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast. It's me
Speaker 1: today and I'm joined by Meghan Burdett, who is the
Speaker 1: director of research at the Kurdish Peace Institute. Hi.
Speaker 2: Meghan, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for joining us. So what we wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about today was these local elections that have been
Speaker 1: happening in Turkey in the last week or so. We're
Speaker 1: recording in very early aprils that it happened I think
Speaker 1: towards the end of March, right, yeah, March thirty. First, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so can you explain to listeners first of all, Like
Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard about these Turkish local elections almost
Speaker 1: constantly for the past several months, because I hear about
Speaker 1: them from Kurdish migrants leaving Turkey. Almost every time I'm
Speaker 1: at the border. I meet people and they tell me.
Speaker 1: Can you explain sort of the context of these elections,
Speaker 1: the concerns going into them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. So first off, these are the first
Speaker 2: elections in Turkey following the presidential and parliamentary vote last
Speaker 2: year that was as a huge disappointment for the opposition
Speaker 2: and also for a couple of separate reasons and a
Speaker 2: couple of similar reasons for the pro Kurdish political movement
Speaker 2: as well. The opposition underperformed last year. They were not
Speaker 2: able to defeat Erdowan as the polling and the sentiment
Speaker 2: in the country had suggested that they would, and the
Speaker 2: pro Kurdish political movement also underperformed as well. They did
Speaker 2: not win as many seats or as many votes as
Speaker 2: they usually do, and a lot of that was attributed
Speaker 2: to the very complex Alliance decisions they made, choosing not
Speaker 2: to run their own presidential candidate and instead ask their
Speaker 2: voters to vote for the CHP, which is the main
Speaker 2: opposition party that has a history of being very nationalist
Speaker 2: and violent and exclusionary towards Kurds. Though things have changed
Speaker 2: in these past twenty years, voters didn't understand that. A
Speaker 2: lot of voters weren't happy with that, and then there
Speaker 2: were some local level issues with selections of candidates as well,
Speaker 2: and then of course the climate of very severe political repression,
Speaker 2: and had the Opposition one there was a lot of
Speaker 2: hope that it would have started to change things on
Speaker 2: the Kurdish issue in Turkey. You know, from what I'd
Speaker 2: been hearing from people, there were prospects of political prisoners
Speaker 2: being released of contacts between the state and of Dela
Speaker 2: Ojealon being re established, which could have been the opening
Speaker 2: of a new peace process. If you follow this, you
Speaker 2: know the PKK declared a ceasefire prior to the elections.
Speaker 2: They initially said that it was following the earthquake in
Speaker 2: order to not allow the conflict to intervene with humanitarian efforts,
Speaker 2: but they did very explicitly extend it through the elections,
Speaker 2: and the discussions around that that I heard in Iraqi, Kurdistan,
Speaker 2: in Northeast Syria and in Europe made it very clear
Speaker 2: that that was an opening to hopefully be able to
Speaker 2: leverage it into a larger piece process were there to
Speaker 2: be a political change. But that change didn't happends. The
Speaker 2: situation did not improve. Ardwan continued his crackdown and his
Speaker 2: military aggression against Kurds in Iraq and Syria, and for
Speaker 2: democracy in Turkey, for the condition of the opposition, for
Speaker 2: the condition of all the groups oppressed under Aerowan's regime,
Speaker 2: whether that's women, whether that's workers, whether that's the earthquake
Speaker 2: victims that have been left behind. Things didn't get better.
Speaker 2: So these elections were an opportunity for people to register
Speaker 2: their disapproval in a way that I think many might
Speaker 2: have wished that they could have a year ago, and
Speaker 2: that disapproval was registered for the first time. Air Dowan's party,
Speaker 2: the Justice and Development Party or the AKP, was not
Speaker 2: the first place party in Turkey. The main opposition CHP
Speaker 2: actually overtook them the pro Kurdish People's Equality and Democracy
Speaker 2: Party or the DEM Party, which used to be the HDP.
Speaker 2: So if I call it the HDP, I'm sorry. Went
Speaker 2: Actually there was a el were much more in line
Speaker 2: with what they had done in the past. They performed,
Speaker 2: you know, right on standard. They actually won more municipalities
Speaker 2: than they did in twenty nineteen, and there was a
Speaker 2: lot of enthusiasm for change among Kurds, among supporters of
Speaker 2: the opposition, you know, among people who I think had
Speaker 2: wanted to see things start to move in a more
Speaker 2: democratic direction last year. So that was a very big
Speaker 2: deal for that reason, and it also shows the fact
Speaker 2: that Airedwan is not necessarily as invincible in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: eight as people feared he would be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So talking of invincibility, I think that's a good
Speaker 1: kind of key into our next topic, which is that
Speaker 1: the elections weren't exactly like a smooth kind of I
Speaker 1: guess concession by Idowan and by his party. Right, can
Speaker 1: you explain to people who aren't familiar with this what happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, to start, before the elections, over seventy five
Speaker 2: percent of voters who supported six sucessful pro Kurdish mayoral
Speaker 2: candidates had their elected representation taken away from them. The
Speaker 2: government removed and imprisoned elected mayors and replaced them with
Speaker 2: regime loyalist trustees who essentially ruled these municipalities on direct
Speaker 2: orders from Erdowan in Ankarab. So this was on an
Speaker 2: unfair playing field for the Kurdish political movement to begin with,
Speaker 2: very unfair playing field for the main opposition as well.
Speaker 2: Atkreme Mamuluh's, the very popular mayor of Istanbul, who just
Speaker 2: won reelection by a very large margin, as a criminal
Speaker 2: case against him that could have him banned from politics.
Speaker 2: So this was very difficult in the Kurdish regions. There
Speaker 2: were many many irregularities on election day. One that a
Speaker 2: lot of people were discussing were these so called mobile voters,
Speaker 2: where the government actually sent members of the security forces,
Speaker 2: predominantly from Western Turkey into Kurdish cities to vote in
Speaker 2: large groups for the ruling AKP. You know, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of videos taken by local media, local politicians and
Speaker 2: activists challenging these people, asking them where they're from, and
Speaker 2: then videos of them all crowding into the airports and
Speaker 2: back on their buses flying back to Western Turkey the
Speaker 2: next day, so you know, they're not even making a
Speaker 2: pretense of being local voters that shifted the results in
Speaker 2: some districts in Schernock, which is a very heavily militarized
Speaker 2: province where the government bases a lot of its military campaigns,
Speaker 2: you know, into the occupied regions of Iraq and Syria
Speaker 2: from the pro Kurdish political movement alleges that these voters
Speaker 2: shifted the outcome. So you had that kind of outright
Speaker 2: attempts at theft in addition to the context of repression.
Speaker 2: And then most brazenly, just one day after the election,
Speaker 2: the local provincial election board denied a mandate of victory,
Speaker 2: you know, essentially the documents certifying that a candidate has
Speaker 2: won the elections and will be allowed to assume office
Speaker 2: to the pro Kurdish candidate Bill A. Zaidon in the
Speaker 2: province of Vaughan, which is a heavily Kurdish province, where
Speaker 2: the dem Party won all fourteen district municipalities and the
Speaker 2: metropolitan municipality as well. So the local election authority essentially said, no,
Speaker 2: you can't run. There's been a last minute legal finding
Speaker 2: that you're unfit to run for office, as there always is, right,
Speaker 2: And then they tried to give the municipality to the
Speaker 2: candidate from Erdowon's party, the AKP, who got less than
Speaker 2: half of the number of votes.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, so kind of yeah, and validating the results, well,
Speaker 1: you're going to break briefly for an advert here, and
Speaker 1: then moved back. Right, we're back. So when they tried
Speaker 1: to invalidate these results right into install representatives, I guess
Speaker 1: you could call them that who didn't win the popular vote,
Speaker 1: there was like a significant street response to that, right
Speaker 1: can you talk us through that? And then the repression
Speaker 1: of it and the results of it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so. There were mass demonstrations in Vaughan in other
Speaker 2: Kurdish provinces, and these are people coming out who not
Speaker 2: ten years ago saw the military raising their cities to
Speaker 2: the ground, killing civilians in the streets. This is a
Speaker 2: very costly endeavor. For Kurdish people in these provinces to
Speaker 2: go protest. That's why you haven't seen it to such
Speaker 2: a degree as was seen in the nineties, in the
Speaker 2: early two thousands, since the collapse of the peace process
Speaker 2: and that violent military campaign in the cities. But last
Speaker 2: night they were out in full force, and very notably,
Speaker 2: they weren't alone. There were protests in Istanbul and solidarity
Speaker 2: as well, you know, carried out by Kurds living there,
Speaker 2: but also by leftist parties, by feminists, by Kurdish religious organizations,
Speaker 2: by all the segments of civil society that have sort
Speaker 2: of oriented around the pro Kurdish political movement. And there
Speaker 2: was also a pretty significant reaction from the main opposition CHP,
Speaker 2: which is not known for radicalism. You had the CHP
Speaker 2: party leader Osgara Ozel saying that it was illegitimate for
Speaker 2: the government to deny a candidate a mandate, and then
Speaker 2: you had Imamulu in Istanbul also criticizing the decision, saying
Speaker 2: it was illegitimate and calling on the government to respect
Speaker 2: the popular will. So at the same time you had
Speaker 2: this outcry across the Turkish political spectrum. You had tens
Speaker 2: of thousands of people out protesting, braving police violence. You know,
Speaker 2: there were armed pro government vigilantes caught on video shooting
Speaker 2: into crowds. There was very, very harrowing videos of beatings
Speaker 2: and torture of civilians. Journalists were attacked and prevented from
Speaker 2: covering the protests. This was a very difficult situation to watch,
Speaker 2: and a lot of people that I was speaking to
Speaker 2: were worrying about a return to the level of violence
Speaker 2: that was seen in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen. Were
Speaker 2: things to escalate, but you know, sometimes there's good news
Speaker 2: in Turkey and Kurdistan. Not always, but sometimes, you know,
Speaker 2: in Turkish you'd say d nae Kazlanachaz will win by resisting,
Speaker 2: and in Kurdish you'd say berghludan Jiana, resistance is life
Speaker 2: and that sort of Those are very famous protest slogans
Speaker 2: that proved really accurate last night, because today Turkey's Supreme
Speaker 2: Electoral Council actually reversed the attempt to give the election
Speaker 2: to the losing pro government candidate and gave the Dun
Speaker 2: party candidate his mandate back. So they've said that he
Speaker 2: will be allowed to assume office. And I think they
Speaker 2: looked at this huge street protest. They looked at this
Speaker 2: opposition coming from not only the pro Kurdish political movement
Speaker 2: but many different political forces in Turkey, and the state
Speaker 2: decided to back down. They decided not to pick this
Speaker 2: fight now. And you know, that's not to say that
Speaker 2: voter suppression in other provinces wasn't an issue. That's not
Speaker 2: to say that there are still outcomes that are being contested.
Speaker 2: You know, the government's doing a lot of very unfair
Speaker 2: things right now to try to take districts from the
Speaker 2: CHP and from the pro Kurdish political movement. But what
Speaker 2: this does show is that when people insist on a
Speaker 2: democratic outcome, and when they are willing to stand up
Speaker 2: for it in large numbers and face the consequences the
Speaker 2: difficulty of doing that, that even regimes like air dons,
Speaker 2: these very you know, autocratic, far right governments have a
Speaker 2: point at which they will back down. And I think
Speaker 2: that that display of resistance and solidarity getting a government
Speaker 2: like that to back down is something that can be
Speaker 2: very hopeful for people around the world.
Speaker 1: Right now. Yeah, definitely. I mean we've seen like just
Speaker 1: to the stuff we've cold or obviously the United States,
Speaker 1: but also in Mianma, like increasingly it's becoming harder and
Speaker 1: harder for states to people's right to be represented or
Speaker 1: to be heard, and like that's a good thing Germany
Speaker 1: for democracy. Yeah, I wanted to ask about you spoke
Speaker 1: a little bit about the Turkish military's incursions into northern
Speaker 1: Assyria and into Iraqi Curtistan Curdistan Autonomous Region. Can you
Speaker 1: explain that there's a lot of like I think Turkey
Speaker 1: is pretty clearly like telegraphed plants for increased military activity
Speaker 1: in that region. So can you explain, like what's what's
Speaker 1: being proposed and what that means.
Speaker 2: So, I think because they have gone into this election
Speaker 2: and found themselves weakened, this is something that could make
Speaker 2: Aerdon very dangerous. One thing that the government has always
Speaker 2: done when it's found itself weak is try to polarize
Speaker 2: society by attacking the Kurds both domestically and internationally in Iraqi,
Speaker 2: Kurdistan and in North East Syria. Of course, you have
Speaker 2: the AKP government's loss of its majority in the twenty
Speaker 2: fifteen elections during the peace process becoming the reason for
Speaker 2: the government's abandonment of the peace process itself. Then in
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen after the local elections where the government lost
Speaker 2: control of Istanbul and Ancara for the first time. That
Speaker 2: was very quickly followed with the appointment of state trustees
Speaker 2: to Kurdish municipalities and then the invasion of North and
Speaker 2: East Syria following Ardwan's agreement with Donald Trump about that.
Speaker 2: And so this does look like the kind of context
Speaker 2: in which he has lashed out against Kurds in Iraq
Speaker 2: and Syria before. And given these threats that you mentioned
Speaker 2: that he has been making, the diplomatic traffic between Turkey
Speaker 2: and Iraq, Turkey and Iran, Turkey and the US and Europe,
Speaker 2: they do appear to be preparing for something now. I
Speaker 2: was just on the ground in North and East Syria
Speaker 2: and in Iraqi Kurdistan, and I heard from many people
Speaker 2: that they're concerned the threats that the government has been
Speaker 2: making a peur to suggest that they might try to
Speaker 2: go for a geographically larger military operation this time. There's
Speaker 2: a chance that instead of only conducting their typical spring
Speaker 2: offensive into Iraqi Kurdistan, which usually gets them nowhere, they
Speaker 2: might also attempt to invade northern Syria as well. Of course,
Speaker 2: that's very internationally contingent. They would need a green light
Speaker 2: from the Americans and from the Russians to be able
Speaker 2: to violate those ceasefires and go in there. But the
Speaker 2: threat's very real. It's something that people are very concerned
Speaker 2: about on the ground, and I think that it's worth
Speaker 2: paying attention to, and particularly for those of US and
Speaker 2: countries that are allied with the Turkish government making noise about,
Speaker 2: you know, opposing trying to get onto the agenda, so
Speaker 2: that permission is not given here and they're not incentivized
Speaker 2: to do this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a very good point, because, like
Speaker 1: Kurdish issues are ones that don't come up very much
Speaker 1: in the press in the United States for the most part,
Speaker 1: and people and their representatives don't hear about them very much.
Speaker 1: But this is one of those like maybe right to
Speaker 1: your rep that doesn't a lot of shit isn't going
Speaker 1: to get changed with an email to your elected officials,
Speaker 1: but especially like certain officials who are on you know,
Speaker 1: foreign relations to committees or something, as well as as
Speaker 1: like other forms of political activism could help here, right, like,
Speaker 1: especially in an election year like that, that's a way
Speaker 1: to stop that.
Speaker 2: Now, this is something that needs to be made into
Speaker 2: an issue. And one thing I hear time and time again,
Speaker 2: whether I'm speaking to people from the Autonomous Administration, the
Speaker 2: YPG and the YPG or pro Kurdish politicians in Turkey
Speaker 2: is they know, you know, the weapons that are being
Speaker 2: used against them, the tear gas canisters, you know, the
Speaker 2: drone parts, the bombs, the equipment, the military training that
Speaker 2: these personnel get. It all comes from Europe, the United States,
Speaker 2: NATO countries that are allied with Turkey. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of leverage and you know, pushing to end that military
Speaker 2: support is something that could be done right now, that
Speaker 2: could be very important. And really, you know, this is
Speaker 2: something where one feels almost on one makes these calls
Speaker 2: like once constantly asking you know, you should do this
Speaker 2: for these people because they're being oppressed and your government
Speaker 2: has a say in it. But we really benefit from
Speaker 2: this too, Right if you look at what the Kurdish
Speaker 2: people and their allies in Turkey have done and standing
Speaker 2: up for democracy in getting the government to reverse this
Speaker 2: attempt to steal an election, you know, that's one small
Speaker 2: example of the very powerful democratic tradition that they have.
Speaker 2: That is something that we can learn from. You know,
Speaker 2: whether you're in the US or in Europe, in many
Speaker 2: different countries around the world right now, the threat of
Speaker 2: authoritarianism and the sort of far right politics of which
Speaker 2: Airedwan is an example. It's an international threat, and you know,
Speaker 2: standing with the people who've been able to resist it
Speaker 2: is something that you know can benefit us all around
Speaker 2: the world as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like it presents a vision for a future
Speaker 1: in which we all stand united against state violence around
Speaker 1: the world, rather than being isolated and gradually destroyed by
Speaker 1: various states and violent actives talking I guess of violent actors.
Speaker 1: The one more thing I wanted to cover with we're
Speaker 1: jumping around a little bit was that, like, I think
Speaker 1: people will probably have seen at least maybe their social
Speaker 1: media timelines are different than mine, but there was a
Speaker 1: lot of violence against Kurdish people in Northern Europe recently,
Speaker 1: right in Belgium, I think, I think maybe in Germany
Speaker 1: as well. Explain a little bit of that. Like it's
Speaker 1: we get into a little bit of like like Turkish
Speaker 1: fascist politics as well, but can you explain what was
Speaker 1: going on there?
Speaker 2: So this all began when some far right Turkish nationalists
Speaker 2: started threatening a Kurdish family after returning from Neil Rose
Speaker 2: or Kurdish New Year celebrations and escalated into you know,
Speaker 2: essentially these far right vigilantes prowling the streets looking for
Speaker 2: Kurds and Kurdish businesses to attack. And this is not
Speaker 2: something new at all. The Turkish government has invested a
Speaker 2: great deal in allowing these structures to operate in Europe.
Speaker 2: You have the GRABLE, which are a fascist paramilitary actually
Speaker 2: the paramilitary wing of the party with which Airdwon is
Speaker 2: currently allied and with which he has a majority in parliament,
Speaker 2: the National Action Party or the MHP. You know, this
Speaker 2: is a group that's been responsible for murders and assassinations
Speaker 2: and all kinds of attacks on Kurds, other minorities, dissidents,
Speaker 2: and has been responsible for violence in Europe as well.
Speaker 2: You have the government encouraging religious fundamentalism through its network
Speaker 2: of religious institutions in Europe and trying to make that
Speaker 2: very extreme and very politically instrumentalized vision of religion popular
Speaker 2: amongst the Turkish community. And then you have you know,
Speaker 2: Turkish intelligence assets able to freely operate and conduct all
Speaker 2: kinds of attacks on Kurdish dissidents. You know, within the
Speaker 2: very center of Europe. Right, we all remember in twenty
Speaker 2: thirteen the assassination of Sakina Johnson in front of the
Speaker 2: Kurdish Community Center in Paris. That murder was never solved.
Speaker 2: The perpetrator, who they caught, very conveniently died in prison
Speaker 2: before he was set to go to trial. Turkish responsibility
Speaker 2: has never been proven in court, I think because there
Speaker 2: are a lot of people who don't want a full
Speaker 2: investigation of a case like that to come out. And then,
Speaker 2: just I believe yesterday or maybe the day before, it
Speaker 2: came out that a Belgian court found alleged Turkish operatives
Speaker 2: responsible for planning attacks on two very senior Kurdish diplomats
Speaker 2: in Belgium who are members of the Kurdistan National Congress,
Speaker 2: which is sort of like the de facto foreign ministry
Speaker 2: of the Kurdish diaspora in Europe. You know, these individuals
Speaker 2: had been spying on the Kurdistan National Congress building, They'd
Speaker 2: been in contact with Turkish officials, They'd been planning assassinations
Speaker 2: very senior politicians. This is a real problem. You know,
Speaker 2: these groups and the state itself are able to freely
Speaker 2: attack civilians, plot murders and do violence and really cause chaos,
Speaker 2: and that's something that's very dangerous, not only for the
Speaker 2: Kurdish community, but for really anybody living in their way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and there are a lot of people who
Speaker 1: would rightly want that to stop. I think, so, like,
Speaker 1: what's the current situation is a number of people were
Speaker 1: like beaten. Was somebody kidnapped? Did I see what was that?
Speaker 1: I didn't see any further reporting on that than one photo.
Speaker 2: It was very serious. I mean, there were people were attacked.
Speaker 2: I'm not exactly certain of the extent of kidnappings or
Speaker 2: other instances like that, but this was some very serious violence.
Speaker 2: And we know what these groups are capable of. They
Speaker 2: have killed people and they have essentially gotten away with it.
Speaker 2: So it may have dived down for now, which is
Speaker 2: certainly good. And obviously, you know, we saw a lot
Speaker 2: of calls for restraint, you know, from the Kurdish community,
Speaker 2: a lot of calls for these European governments essentially to
Speaker 2: do their job and prevent these groups from you know,
Speaker 2: importing their nationalist campaigns against a persecuted minority to a
Speaker 2: place where you know, these chords have fled to be
Speaker 2: free from that sort of thing. So it stopped for now,
Speaker 2: but it's very much not over, you know. I when
Speaker 2: you see the Kurdish community in Europe and spend time
Speaker 2: with them and look at the security precautions that they
Speaker 2: have to take just to hold conferences and cultural festivals, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's really quite disheartening.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, especially like you say, in northern Europe, like
Speaker 1: they're not in Turkey. They left Turkey to avoid that stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We'll take a second outbreak here and then we'll be
Speaker 1: back to finish up. So for the last part, do
Speaker 1: you have anything you want to add that we haven't
Speaker 1: got to yet.
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, overall, looking at the situation
Speaker 2: in Turkey following these elections, looking at the situation in Europe,
Speaker 2: we're seeing that the Turkish government continues to be an
Speaker 2: example of the danger of these kinds of far right nationalist,
Speaker 2: religious fundamentalist regimes that are on the rise everywhere. These
Speaker 2: are political trends that are growing around the world, and
Speaker 2: Airdowan and his current Turkish government are a very clear
Speaker 2: example of the danger that that causes not to just
Speaker 2: the population of a country, but to neighboring countries, to
Speaker 2: diaspora communities that have left that have gone elsewhere. That
Speaker 2: maintain their culture and maintain their interest in political organizing.
Speaker 2: So these are threats that people are going to be
Speaker 2: looking at around the world, and I think it's very
Speaker 2: important to be following the situation in Turkey for that reason.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, looking at how the Kurdish
Speaker 2: people and their allies in Turkey, you know, on the left,
Speaker 2: in workers' movements, in feminist movements and all of these
Speaker 2: sort of groups that have also been victed by Erdowan's regime.
Speaker 2: We're seeing that resistance is possible, that people can stand
Speaker 2: up for democracy and they can win, and that look right,
Speaker 2: nobody's giving up on their work. You know, the KMK
Speaker 2: doesn't stop advocating for Kurdish interests in a diplomatic capacity
Speaker 2: because their members face threats. You know, these people go
Speaker 2: to work every single day, you know, in Roosjeva, in
Speaker 2: North and Eastsyria, in Iraqi, Kurdistan, Kurdish groups, you know,
Speaker 2: Kurdish political organizations, Kurdish politicians and activists, they continue building
Speaker 2: up their project. You know, I said, I was just
Speaker 2: in northern Syria. It's extremely difficult right now. People don't
Speaker 2: have electricity, people don't have water because Turkey bombed all
Speaker 2: the infrastructure, but still they're celebrating Noil Rose. You know,
Speaker 2: they're talking about their upcoming local elections that they want
Speaker 2: to hold and how to hold them in the best way.
Speaker 2: You know, They're talking about their new social contract and
Speaker 2: how they can implement it. They're moving forward constantly despite
Speaker 2: the threats that they're facing. And I think that that,
Speaker 2: you know, many of you listening to this are people
Speaker 2: who are probably looking to improve and change the society
Speaker 2: that you live in. And so when we look at
Speaker 2: what's going on in Turkey and in Kurdistan, we can
Speaker 2: see both very clear examples of what it is that
Speaker 2: people who want change are up against, but also what
Speaker 2: they can accomplish even under those conditions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think like one of the things I took
Speaker 1: from going to Kurdistan was like how invested, like how
Speaker 1: genuine the solidarity that those people have with other like
Speaker 1: oppressed groups. It's like I spent as much time answering
Speaker 1: questions about me and ma as I did like asking
Speaker 1: questions about Kurdistan, which was surprising to me, but they
Speaker 1: obviously happy to do it. But like it would be
Speaker 1: nice to see some of that solidarity come back from
Speaker 1: the us, right, so are they're like, I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess you can come down to the border and help
Speaker 1: Kurdish people literally any day of the week if you'd
Speaker 1: like to do that all the time. But what concrete
Speaker 1: actions can people take, especially with regard to like helping
Speaker 1: your self administration in North and East Syria right, Like
Speaker 1: they're facing constant attacks, power stations get bombed, Like all
Speaker 1: my friends there are always struggling to have power, internet
Speaker 1: or even like electricity, and they got flooded recently on
Speaker 1: top of all that. Yeah, so like their concrete actions
Speaker 1: people can take to help to be in solidarity.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean I think one thing, if you
Speaker 2: have expertise on anything to do with, you know, power
Speaker 2: grids that are resilient to these kinds of attacks, on
Speaker 2: alternative clean energy sources, anything that could possibly help people
Speaker 2: in a situation like this live they want expertise. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of problems that they're facing that they simply
Speaker 2: because of the war, don't have the capacity not only
Speaker 2: to solve, but even to start thinking about how it
Speaker 2: is that one solves a problem like this, because there
Speaker 2: just aren't that many societies in the world going through it.
Speaker 2: So any kind of expertise in addressing energy issues, environmental issues,
Speaker 2: these kinds of problems, the second and third order effects
Speaker 2: of the attacks on infrastructure, on oil and gas, on
Speaker 2: power facilities, that would be very important. They really do
Speaker 2: need that, and that's something you know, you can write
Speaker 2: to us at the Kurdish Piece Institute. We can connect
Speaker 2: you with people. If you have contacts on the ground there,
Speaker 2: you can talk to them. That's one thing. Then at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, you know, they have these
Speaker 2: elections coming up. That is a big step for them.
Speaker 2: They've just put out a new social contract. They're really
Speaker 2: trying to listen to some of the internal criticisms that
Speaker 2: they get and really build up the civil, social political
Speaker 2: side of their system. You know, there's a belief among
Speaker 2: many people there that I've talked to that because of
Speaker 2: the existential nature of these wars that they're fighting, they
Speaker 2: haven't been able to really pursue the political elements of
Speaker 2: their revolution to the degree that they want to. And
Speaker 2: they're trying to do that now. They have this new
Speaker 2: social Contract. It's an incredible document. You can read it.
Speaker 2: Going to hold municipal elections on May thirtieth, I believe
Speaker 2: is the date that was announced. So any if you
Speaker 2: know a lot about electoral systems, if you have done
Speaker 2: election observation before, if you want to help them do
Speaker 2: that right and get international attention for what it is
Speaker 2: that they're doing. That's another way that people have been
Speaker 2: telling me that you can help. And then finally, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're here listening in the US, Airdowan is coming
Speaker 2: to the White House on May ninth. According to reports
Speaker 2: from Turkish and international media, there is going to be
Speaker 2: a demonstration. There will probably be a lot of campaigns
Speaker 2: around that demonstration as well, on things like conditioning and
Speaker 2: ending arm sales and security assistants, on calls for peace,
Speaker 2: on calls for the US to end its support for
Speaker 2: and enablement of Turkey's occupation of Iraq and Syria, It's
Speaker 2: repression of its Kurdish people at home, and so anything
Speaker 2: that you can do to join those actions in those
Speaker 2: campaigns would be very helpful. You know, this is going
Speaker 2: to be an opportunity to let both Airdowan and the
Speaker 2: White House hear what the American people think about US
Speaker 2: support for what the Turkish government is doing. So be there,
Speaker 2: get involved. That's one way that we can, you know,
Speaker 2: make our voices heard and try to push for a
Speaker 2: change in policy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great. I think people should like
Speaker 1: if you want an example of I guess the US complicity.
Speaker 1: Like while I was in Kurdistan, there was a bombing
Speaker 1: that killed thirty nine SI like internal security forces, and
Speaker 1: that was like a plane that your tax dollars if
Speaker 1: you live in the US developed, right, like an F
Speaker 1: sixteen with munitions that you probably sold to them, and
Speaker 1: the US is selling has sold more F sixteen since then, right, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: so like that is a thing that we could stop,
Speaker 1: and that would concretely stop. Like I spoke to a
Speaker 1: mother who lost her son. I think it was like
Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen little football player. They had pictures of him
Speaker 1: all over the house, right, Like it was really heartbreaking stuff.
Speaker 1: And I know that this happens a lot in other
Speaker 1: parts of the world. I'm not saying that's one important too,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's always hard to talk to parents
Speaker 1: who have lost their kids, and you can stop that happening.
Speaker 1: If we don't sell them the F sixteens that do that,
Speaker 1: then they don't have the ability to do it, at
Speaker 1: least not as much.
Speaker 2: And this is one way that we can connect struggles
Speaker 2: and causes as well, because it's all the same companies
Speaker 2: that are providing equipment to all of these states that
Speaker 2: are doing this. You know, the targets are the same
Speaker 2: for these kinds of campaigns. And look, you know all
Speaker 2: of these governments, all of these corporations, they know that
Speaker 2: they're on the same side. We don't always know that
Speaker 2: we're on the same side too, And so I think
Speaker 2: that getting together and pointing out the patterns and standing
Speaker 2: against you know, these arms sales and security assistants in
Speaker 2: the context of Kurdistan alongside many other contexts where they're
Speaker 2: also very destructive, is an important way that we can
Speaker 2: sort of amplify our efforts to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a very good, very good point.
Speaker 1: Like I live in San Diego. Almost every single bomb
Speaker 1: that has fallen on Palestine and many of the wads
Speaker 1: a full on Kurdistan. Have you know the company that
Speaker 1: sold that has an office here? Like if they're the
Speaker 1: places where you can apply pressure in places where you
Speaker 1: can hopefully make a change, Megan, where can people you
Speaker 1: mentioned like emailing you, Where can people find you? How
Speaker 1: can people keep up to date with what's happening? In Kurdistan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. So you can go to Kurdishpeace dot org.
Speaker 2: That's the website of our institute. If you go to
Speaker 2: our about page, my contact is on there. You can
Speaker 2: always reach out to me whether you have a question
Speaker 2: about Kurdistan, you want to read our research and analysis.
Speaker 2: You know you're a journalist or an analyst and you
Speaker 2: want to submit something yourself, we can help you there.
Speaker 2: We're also on Twitter at Kurdish piece org. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a great way for you to follow. In the
Speaker 2: English language. If you're looking for resource is on the ground,
Speaker 2: you can follow North Press Agency, which publishes in English,
Speaker 2: the Roulejeva Information Center which publishes in English. And then
Speaker 2: you know, get involved with your local Kurdish community in
Speaker 2: a lot of major cities in the US. If you're
Speaker 2: in New York, if you're in Boston, if you're in
Speaker 2: the DMV area, if you're in California, like you know,
Speaker 2: there are active Kurdish communities, and you know, go to
Speaker 2: a cultural event, go to a demonstration, you'll find both
Speaker 2: great ways to get connected and really get plugged into
Speaker 2: solidarity efforts. But also you know, a wonderful community and
Speaker 2: a wonderful culture that I think, you know, anyone would be.
Speaker 2: I've certainly been, you know, very happy to have experienced.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, great, Thank you so much, Megan. That
Speaker 1: was great.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It Could Happen year as a production of
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,
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