1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Also media. Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast. It's me 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: today and I'm joined by Meghan Burdett, who is the 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: director of research at the Kurdish Peace Institute. Hi. 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: Meghan, thanks so much for having me. 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for joining us. So what we wanted to 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: talk about today was these local elections that have been 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: happening in Turkey in the last week or so. We're 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: recording in very early aprils that it happened I think 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: towards the end of March, right, yeah, March thirty. First, Yeah, 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: so can you explain to listeners first of all, Like 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard about these Turkish local elections almost 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: constantly for the past several months, because I hear about 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: them from Kurdish migrants leaving Turkey. Almost every time I'm 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: at the border. I meet people and they tell me. 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: Can you explain sort of the context of these elections, 16 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: the concerns going into them. 17 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. So first off, these are the first 18 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: elections in Turkey following the presidential and parliamentary vote last 19 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: year that was as a huge disappointment for the opposition 20 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: and also for a couple of separate reasons and a 21 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 2: couple of similar reasons for the pro Kurdish political movement 22 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: as well. The opposition underperformed last year. They were not 23 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: able to defeat Erdowan as the polling and the sentiment 24 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: in the country had suggested that they would, and the 25 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 2: pro Kurdish political movement also underperformed as well. They did 26 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: not win as many seats or as many votes as 27 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: they usually do, and a lot of that was attributed 28 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: to the very complex Alliance decisions they made, choosing not 29 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: to run their own presidential candidate and instead ask their 30 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: voters to vote for the CHP, which is the main 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: opposition party that has a history of being very nationalist 32 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: and violent and exclusionary towards Kurds. Though things have changed 33 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: in these past twenty years, voters didn't understand that. A 34 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: lot of voters weren't happy with that, and then there 35 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: were some local level issues with selections of candidates as well, 36 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: and then of course the climate of very severe political repression, 37 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: and had the Opposition one there was a lot of 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: hope that it would have started to change things on 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: the Kurdish issue in Turkey. You know, from what I'd 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: been hearing from people, there were prospects of political prisoners 41 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: being released of contacts between the state and of Dela 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: Ojealon being re established, which could have been the opening 43 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: of a new peace process. If you follow this, you 44 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: know the PKK declared a ceasefire prior to the elections. 45 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: They initially said that it was following the earthquake in 46 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: order to not allow the conflict to intervene with humanitarian efforts, 47 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: but they did very explicitly extend it through the elections, 48 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: and the discussions around that that I heard in Iraqi, Kurdistan, 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: in Northeast Syria and in Europe made it very clear 50 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: that that was an opening to hopefully be able to 51 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: leverage it into a larger piece process were there to 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: be a political change. But that change didn't happends. The 53 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: situation did not improve. Ardwan continued his crackdown and his 54 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 2: military aggression against Kurds in Iraq and Syria, and for 55 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: democracy in Turkey, for the condition of the opposition, for 56 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: the condition of all the groups oppressed under Aerowan's regime, 57 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: whether that's women, whether that's workers, whether that's the earthquake 58 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 2: victims that have been left behind. Things didn't get better. 59 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 2: So these elections were an opportunity for people to register 60 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: their disapproval in a way that I think many might 61 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: have wished that they could have a year ago, and 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: that disapproval was registered for the first time. Air Dowan's party, 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: the Justice and Development Party or the AKP, was not 64 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: the first place party in Turkey. The main opposition CHP 65 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: actually overtook them the pro Kurdish People's Equality and Democracy 66 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: Party or the DEM Party, which used to be the HDP. 67 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: So if I call it the HDP, I'm sorry. Went 68 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: Actually there was a el were much more in line 69 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: with what they had done in the past. They performed, 70 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: you know, right on standard. They actually won more municipalities 71 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: than they did in twenty nineteen, and there was a 72 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: lot of enthusiasm for change among Kurds, among supporters of 73 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: the opposition, you know, among people who I think had 74 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 2: wanted to see things start to move in a more 75 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: democratic direction last year. So that was a very big 76 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: deal for that reason, and it also shows the fact 77 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: that Airedwan is not necessarily as invincible in twenty twenty 78 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: eight as people feared he would be. 79 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So talking of invincibility, I think that's a good 80 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: kind of key into our next topic, which is that 81 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: the elections weren't exactly like a smooth kind of I 82 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: guess concession by Idowan and by his party. Right, can 83 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: you explain to people who aren't familiar with this what happened? 84 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, to start, before the elections, over seventy five 85 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 2: percent of voters who supported six sucessful pro Kurdish mayoral 86 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: candidates had their elected representation taken away from them. The 87 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: government removed and imprisoned elected mayors and replaced them with 88 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 2: regime loyalist trustees who essentially ruled these municipalities on direct 89 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 2: orders from Erdowan in Ankarab. So this was on an 90 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: unfair playing field for the Kurdish political movement to begin with, 91 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: very unfair playing field for the main opposition as well. 92 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 2: Atkreme Mamuluh's, the very popular mayor of Istanbul, who just 93 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: won reelection by a very large margin, as a criminal 94 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: case against him that could have him banned from politics. 95 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: So this was very difficult in the Kurdish regions. There 96 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: were many many irregularities on election day. One that a 97 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: lot of people were discussing were these so called mobile voters, 98 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: where the government actually sent members of the security forces, 99 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 2: predominantly from Western Turkey into Kurdish cities to vote in 100 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: large groups for the ruling AKP. You know, there's a 101 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: lot of videos taken by local media, local politicians and 102 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: activists challenging these people, asking them where they're from, and 103 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: then videos of them all crowding into the airports and 104 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: back on their buses flying back to Western Turkey the 105 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: next day, so you know, they're not even making a 106 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: pretense of being local voters that shifted the results in 107 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: some districts in Schernock, which is a very heavily militarized 108 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: province where the government bases a lot of its military campaigns, 109 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 2: you know, into the occupied regions of Iraq and Syria 110 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: from the pro Kurdish political movement alleges that these voters 111 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: shifted the outcome. So you had that kind of outright 112 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: attempts at theft in addition to the context of repression. 113 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: And then most brazenly, just one day after the election, 114 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 2: the local provincial election board denied a mandate of victory, 115 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: you know, essentially the documents certifying that a candidate has 116 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: won the elections and will be allowed to assume office 117 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: to the pro Kurdish candidate Bill A. Zaidon in the 118 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 2: province of Vaughan, which is a heavily Kurdish province, where 119 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: the dem Party won all fourteen district municipalities and the 120 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: metropolitan municipality as well. So the local election authority essentially said, no, 121 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: you can't run. There's been a last minute legal finding 122 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: that you're unfit to run for office, as there always is, right, 123 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: And then they tried to give the municipality to the 124 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: candidate from Erdowon's party, the AKP, who got less than 125 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: half of the number of votes. 126 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, so kind of yeah, and validating the results, well, 127 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: you're going to break briefly for an advert here, and 128 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: then moved back. Right, we're back. So when they tried 129 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: to invalidate these results right into install representatives, I guess 130 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: you could call them that who didn't win the popular vote, 131 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: there was like a significant street response to that, right 132 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: can you talk us through that? And then the repression 133 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: of it and the results of it. 134 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. There were mass demonstrations in Vaughan in other 135 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: Kurdish provinces, and these are people coming out who not 136 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: ten years ago saw the military raising their cities to 137 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: the ground, killing civilians in the streets. This is a 138 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: very costly endeavor. For Kurdish people in these provinces to 139 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: go protest. That's why you haven't seen it to such 140 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: a degree as was seen in the nineties, in the 141 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 2: early two thousands, since the collapse of the peace process 142 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: and that violent military campaign in the cities. But last 143 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: night they were out in full force, and very notably, 144 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: they weren't alone. There were protests in Istanbul and solidarity 145 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 2: as well, you know, carried out by Kurds living there, 146 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 2: but also by leftist parties, by feminists, by Kurdish religious organizations, 147 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: by all the segments of civil society that have sort 148 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: of oriented around the pro Kurdish political movement. And there 149 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: was also a pretty significant reaction from the main opposition CHP, 150 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: which is not known for radicalism. You had the CHP 151 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 2: party leader Osgara Ozel saying that it was illegitimate for 152 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: the government to deny a candidate a mandate, and then 153 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: you had Imamulu in Istanbul also criticizing the decision, saying 154 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 2: it was illegitimate and calling on the government to respect 155 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: the popular will. So at the same time you had 156 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 2: this outcry across the Turkish political spectrum. You had tens 157 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: of thousands of people out protesting, braving police violence. You know, 158 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: there were armed pro government vigilantes caught on video shooting 159 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: into crowds. There was very, very harrowing videos of beatings 160 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: and torture of civilians. Journalists were attacked and prevented from 161 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: covering the protests. This was a very difficult situation to watch, 162 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 2: and a lot of people that I was speaking to 163 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: were worrying about a return to the level of violence 164 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: that was seen in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen. Were 165 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: things to escalate, but you know, sometimes there's good news 166 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: in Turkey and Kurdistan. Not always, but sometimes, you know, 167 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: in Turkish you'd say d nae Kazlanachaz will win by resisting, 168 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: and in Kurdish you'd say berghludan Jiana, resistance is life 169 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: and that sort of Those are very famous protest slogans 170 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: that proved really accurate last night, because today Turkey's Supreme 171 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: Electoral Council actually reversed the attempt to give the election 172 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: to the losing pro government candidate and gave the Dun 173 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 2: party candidate his mandate back. So they've said that he 174 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 2: will be allowed to assume office. And I think they 175 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 2: looked at this huge street protest. They looked at this 176 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: opposition coming from not only the pro Kurdish political movement 177 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: but many different political forces in Turkey, and the state 178 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: decided to back down. They decided not to pick this 179 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: fight now. And you know, that's not to say that 180 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: voter suppression in other provinces wasn't an issue. That's not 181 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: to say that there are still outcomes that are being contested. 182 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: You know, the government's doing a lot of very unfair 183 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 2: things right now to try to take districts from the 184 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: CHP and from the pro Kurdish political movement. But what 185 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: this does show is that when people insist on a 186 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: democratic outcome, and when they are willing to stand up 187 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: for it in large numbers and face the consequences the 188 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: difficulty of doing that, that even regimes like air dons, 189 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: these very you know, autocratic, far right governments have a 190 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: point at which they will back down. And I think 191 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 2: that that display of resistance and solidarity getting a government 192 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 2: like that to back down is something that can be 193 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: very hopeful for people around the world. 194 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: Right now. Yeah, definitely. I mean we've seen like just 195 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: to the stuff we've cold or obviously the United States, 196 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: but also in Mianma, like increasingly it's becoming harder and 197 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: harder for states to people's right to be represented or 198 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: to be heard, and like that's a good thing Germany 199 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: for democracy. Yeah, I wanted to ask about you spoke 200 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: a little bit about the Turkish military's incursions into northern 201 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: Assyria and into Iraqi Curtistan Curdistan Autonomous Region. Can you 202 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: explain that there's a lot of like I think Turkey 203 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: is pretty clearly like telegraphed plants for increased military activity 204 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: in that region. So can you explain, like what's what's 205 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: being proposed and what that means. 206 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: So, I think because they have gone into this election 207 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: and found themselves weakened, this is something that could make 208 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: Aerdon very dangerous. One thing that the government has always 209 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,239 Speaker 2: done when it's found itself weak is try to polarize 210 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: society by attacking the Kurds both domestically and internationally in Iraqi, 211 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: Kurdistan and in North East Syria. Of course, you have 212 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: the AKP government's loss of its majority in the twenty 213 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: fifteen elections during the peace process becoming the reason for 214 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: the government's abandonment of the peace process itself. Then in 215 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen after the local elections where the government lost 216 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 2: control of Istanbul and Ancara for the first time. That 217 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: was very quickly followed with the appointment of state trustees 218 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: to Kurdish municipalities and then the invasion of North and 219 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: East Syria following Ardwan's agreement with Donald Trump about that. 220 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: And so this does look like the kind of context 221 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 2: in which he has lashed out against Kurds in Iraq 222 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: and Syria before. And given these threats that you mentioned 223 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: that he has been making, the diplomatic traffic between Turkey 224 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 2: and Iraq, Turkey and Iran, Turkey and the US and Europe, 225 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: they do appear to be preparing for something now. I 226 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: was just on the ground in North and East Syria 227 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: and in Iraqi Kurdistan, and I heard from many people 228 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 2: that they're concerned the threats that the government has been 229 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: making a peur to suggest that they might try to 230 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 2: go for a geographically larger military operation this time. There's 231 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: a chance that instead of only conducting their typical spring 232 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: offensive into Iraqi Kurdistan, which usually gets them nowhere, they 233 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 2: might also attempt to invade northern Syria as well. Of course, 234 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 2: that's very internationally contingent. They would need a green light 235 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 2: from the Americans and from the Russians to be able 236 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 2: to violate those ceasefires and go in there. But the 237 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: threat's very real. It's something that people are very concerned 238 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: about on the ground, and I think that it's worth 239 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: paying attention to, and particularly for those of US and 240 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: countries that are allied with the Turkish government making noise about, 241 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: you know, opposing trying to get onto the agenda, so 242 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,479 Speaker 2: that permission is not given here and they're not incentivized 243 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: to do this. 244 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a very good point, because, like 245 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: Kurdish issues are ones that don't come up very much 246 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: in the press in the United States for the most part, 247 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: and people and their representatives don't hear about them very much. 248 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: But this is one of those like maybe right to 249 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: your rep that doesn't a lot of shit isn't going 250 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: to get changed with an email to your elected officials, 251 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: but especially like certain officials who are on you know, 252 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: foreign relations to committees or something, as well as as 253 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: like other forms of political activism could help here, right, like, 254 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: especially in an election year like that, that's a way 255 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: to stop that. 256 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: Now, this is something that needs to be made into 257 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: an issue. And one thing I hear time and time again, 258 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: whether I'm speaking to people from the Autonomous Administration, the 259 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: YPG and the YPG or pro Kurdish politicians in Turkey 260 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: is they know, you know, the weapons that are being 261 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: used against them, the tear gas canisters, you know, the 262 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: drone parts, the bombs, the equipment, the military training that 263 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: these personnel get. It all comes from Europe, the United States, 264 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: NATO countries that are allied with Turkey. There's a lot 265 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: of leverage and you know, pushing to end that military 266 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: support is something that could be done right now, that 267 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: could be very important. And really, you know, this is 268 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: something where one feels almost on one makes these calls 269 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: like once constantly asking you know, you should do this 270 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: for these people because they're being oppressed and your government 271 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: has a say in it. But we really benefit from 272 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: this too, Right if you look at what the Kurdish 273 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: people and their allies in Turkey have done and standing 274 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: up for democracy in getting the government to reverse this 275 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: attempt to steal an election, you know, that's one small 276 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: example of the very powerful democratic tradition that they have. 277 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: That is something that we can learn from. You know, 278 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: whether you're in the US or in Europe, in many 279 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: different countries around the world right now, the threat of 280 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: authoritarianism and the sort of far right politics of which 281 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: Airedwan is an example. It's an international threat, and you know, 282 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: standing with the people who've been able to resist it 283 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: is something that you know can benefit us all around 284 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: the world as well. 285 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and like it presents a vision for a future 286 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: in which we all stand united against state violence around 287 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: the world, rather than being isolated and gradually destroyed by 288 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: various states and violent actives talking I guess of violent actors. 289 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: The one more thing I wanted to cover with we're 290 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: jumping around a little bit was that, like, I think 291 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: people will probably have seen at least maybe their social 292 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: media timelines are different than mine, but there was a 293 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: lot of violence against Kurdish people in Northern Europe recently, 294 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: right in Belgium, I think, I think maybe in Germany 295 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: as well. Explain a little bit of that. Like it's 296 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: we get into a little bit of like like Turkish 297 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: fascist politics as well, but can you explain what was 298 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: going on there? 299 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 2: So this all began when some far right Turkish nationalists 300 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 2: started threatening a Kurdish family after returning from Neil Rose 301 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: or Kurdish New Year celebrations and escalated into you know, 302 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: essentially these far right vigilantes prowling the streets looking for 303 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: Kurds and Kurdish businesses to attack. And this is not 304 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 2: something new at all. The Turkish government has invested a 305 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: great deal in allowing these structures to operate in Europe. 306 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: You have the GRABLE, which are a fascist paramilitary actually 307 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: the paramilitary wing of the party with which Airdwon is 308 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 2: currently allied and with which he has a majority in parliament, 309 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: the National Action Party or the MHP. You know, this 310 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: is a group that's been responsible for murders and assassinations 311 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: and all kinds of attacks on Kurds, other minorities, dissidents, 312 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 2: and has been responsible for violence in Europe as well. 313 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: You have the government encouraging religious fundamentalism through its network 314 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 2: of religious institutions in Europe and trying to make that 315 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: very extreme and very politically instrumentalized vision of religion popular 316 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 2: amongst the Turkish community. And then you have you know, 317 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: Turkish intelligence assets able to freely operate and conduct all 318 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: kinds of attacks on Kurdish dissidents. You know, within the 319 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 2: very center of Europe. Right, we all remember in twenty 320 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: thirteen the assassination of Sakina Johnson in front of the 321 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: Kurdish Community Center in Paris. That murder was never solved. 322 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 2: The perpetrator, who they caught, very conveniently died in prison 323 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: before he was set to go to trial. Turkish responsibility 324 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: has never been proven in court, I think because there 325 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: are a lot of people who don't want a full 326 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: investigation of a case like that to come out. And then, 327 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: just I believe yesterday or maybe the day before, it 328 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: came out that a Belgian court found alleged Turkish operatives 329 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: responsible for planning attacks on two very senior Kurdish diplomats 330 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: in Belgium who are members of the Kurdistan National Congress, 331 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 2: which is sort of like the de facto foreign ministry 332 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: of the Kurdish diaspora in Europe. You know, these individuals 333 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: had been spying on the Kurdistan National Congress building, They'd 334 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 2: been in contact with Turkish officials, They'd been planning assassinations 335 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: very senior politicians. This is a real problem. You know, 336 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: these groups and the state itself are able to freely 337 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: attack civilians, plot murders and do violence and really cause chaos, 338 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 2: and that's something that's very dangerous, not only for the 339 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 2: Kurdish community, but for really anybody living in their way. 340 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and there are a lot of people who 341 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: would rightly want that to stop. I think, so, like, 342 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: what's the current situation is a number of people were 343 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: like beaten. Was somebody kidnapped? Did I see what was that? 344 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: I didn't see any further reporting on that than one photo. 345 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 2: It was very serious. I mean, there were people were attacked. 346 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: I'm not exactly certain of the extent of kidnappings or 347 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: other instances like that, but this was some very serious violence. 348 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: And we know what these groups are capable of. They 349 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: have killed people and they have essentially gotten away with it. 350 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 2: So it may have dived down for now, which is 351 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: certainly good. And obviously, you know, we saw a lot 352 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 2: of calls for restraint, you know, from the Kurdish community, 353 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 2: a lot of calls for these European governments essentially to 354 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: do their job and prevent these groups from you know, 355 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: importing their nationalist campaigns against a persecuted minority to a 356 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: place where you know, these chords have fled to be 357 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: free from that sort of thing. So it stopped for now, 358 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 2: but it's very much not over, you know. I when 359 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: you see the Kurdish community in Europe and spend time 360 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: with them and look at the security precautions that they 361 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: have to take just to hold conferences and cultural festivals, Yeah, 362 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: it's really quite disheartening. 363 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, especially like you say, in northern Europe, like 364 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: they're not in Turkey. They left Turkey to avoid that stuff. 365 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 366 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: We'll take a second outbreak here and then we'll be 367 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: back to finish up. So for the last part, do 368 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: you have anything you want to add that we haven't 369 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: got to yet. 370 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, overall, looking at the situation 371 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 2: in Turkey following these elections, looking at the situation in Europe, 372 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: we're seeing that the Turkish government continues to be an 373 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: example of the danger of these kinds of far right nationalist, 374 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,719 Speaker 2: religious fundamentalist regimes that are on the rise everywhere. These 375 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: are political trends that are growing around the world, and 376 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 2: Airdowan and his current Turkish government are a very clear 377 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: example of the danger that that causes not to just 378 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: the population of a country, but to neighboring countries, to 379 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: diaspora communities that have left that have gone elsewhere. That 380 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: maintain their culture and maintain their interest in political organizing. 381 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: So these are threats that people are going to be 382 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: looking at around the world, and I think it's very 383 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 2: important to be following the situation in Turkey for that reason. 384 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 2: But at the same time, looking at how the Kurdish 385 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: people and their allies in Turkey, you know, on the left, 386 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: in workers' movements, in feminist movements and all of these 387 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: sort of groups that have also been victed by Erdowan's regime. 388 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: We're seeing that resistance is possible, that people can stand 389 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 2: up for democracy and they can win, and that look right, 390 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: nobody's giving up on their work. You know, the KMK 391 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: doesn't stop advocating for Kurdish interests in a diplomatic capacity 392 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: because their members face threats. You know, these people go 393 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 2: to work every single day, you know, in Roosjeva, in 394 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: North and Eastsyria, in Iraqi, Kurdistan, Kurdish groups, you know, 395 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 2: Kurdish political organizations, Kurdish politicians and activists, they continue building 396 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: up their project. You know, I said, I was just 397 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 2: in northern Syria. It's extremely difficult right now. People don't 398 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: have electricity, people don't have water because Turkey bombed all 399 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: the infrastructure, but still they're celebrating Noil Rose. You know, 400 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 2: they're talking about their upcoming local elections that they want 401 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: to hold and how to hold them in the best way. 402 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: You know, They're talking about their new social contract and 403 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: how they can implement it. They're moving forward constantly despite 404 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 2: the threats that they're facing. And I think that that, 405 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 2: you know, many of you listening to this are people 406 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: who are probably looking to improve and change the society 407 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 2: that you live in. And so when we look at 408 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 2: what's going on in Turkey and in Kurdistan, we can 409 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 2: see both very clear examples of what it is that 410 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: people who want change are up against, but also what 411 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: they can accomplish even under those conditions. 412 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think like one of the things I took 413 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: from going to Kurdistan was like how invested, like how 414 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: genuine the solidarity that those people have with other like 415 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: oppressed groups. It's like I spent as much time answering 416 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: questions about me and ma as I did like asking 417 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: questions about Kurdistan, which was surprising to me, but they 418 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: obviously happy to do it. But like it would be 419 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: nice to see some of that solidarity come back from 420 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: the us, right, so are they're like, I mean, I 421 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: guess you can come down to the border and help 422 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: Kurdish people literally any day of the week if you'd 423 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: like to do that all the time. But what concrete 424 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: actions can people take, especially with regard to like helping 425 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: your self administration in North and East Syria right, Like 426 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: they're facing constant attacks, power stations get bombed, Like all 427 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: my friends there are always struggling to have power, internet 428 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: or even like electricity, and they got flooded recently on 429 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: top of all that. Yeah, so like their concrete actions 430 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: people can take to help to be in solidarity. 431 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean I think one thing, if you 432 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: have expertise on anything to do with, you know, power 433 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 2: grids that are resilient to these kinds of attacks, on 434 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: alternative clean energy sources, anything that could possibly help people 435 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 2: in a situation like this live they want expertise. There's 436 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 2: a lot of problems that they're facing that they simply 437 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: because of the war, don't have the capacity not only 438 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 2: to solve, but even to start thinking about how it 439 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: is that one solves a problem like this, because there 440 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 2: just aren't that many societies in the world going through it. 441 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 2: So any kind of expertise in addressing energy issues, environmental issues, 442 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: these kinds of problems, the second and third order effects 443 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: of the attacks on infrastructure, on oil and gas, on 444 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 2: power facilities, that would be very important. They really do 445 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 2: need that, and that's something you know, you can write 446 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: to us at the Kurdish Piece Institute. We can connect 447 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 2: you with people. If you have contacts on the ground there, 448 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: you can talk to them. That's one thing. Then at 449 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: the end of the day, you know, they have these 450 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: elections coming up. That is a big step for them. 451 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: They've just put out a new social contract. They're really 452 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 2: trying to listen to some of the internal criticisms that 453 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: they get and really build up the civil, social political 454 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: side of their system. You know, there's a belief among 455 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: many people there that I've talked to that because of 456 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: the existential nature of these wars that they're fighting, they 457 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 2: haven't been able to really pursue the political elements of 458 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: their revolution to the degree that they want to. And 459 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 2: they're trying to do that now. They have this new 460 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 2: social Contract. It's an incredible document. You can read it. 461 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: Going to hold municipal elections on May thirtieth, I believe 462 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: is the date that was announced. So any if you 463 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: know a lot about electoral systems, if you have done 464 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 2: election observation before, if you want to help them do 465 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: that right and get international attention for what it is 466 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 2: that they're doing. That's another way that people have been 467 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: telling me that you can help. And then finally, you know, 468 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: if you're here listening in the US, Airdowan is coming 469 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 2: to the White House on May ninth. According to reports 470 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: from Turkish and international media, there is going to be 471 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: a demonstration. There will probably be a lot of campaigns 472 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: around that demonstration as well, on things like conditioning and 473 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: ending arm sales and security assistants, on calls for peace, 474 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: on calls for the US to end its support for 475 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 2: and enablement of Turkey's occupation of Iraq and Syria, It's 476 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: repression of its Kurdish people at home, and so anything 477 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 2: that you can do to join those actions in those 478 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: campaigns would be very helpful. You know, this is going 479 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: to be an opportunity to let both Airdowan and the 480 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: White House hear what the American people think about US 481 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: support for what the Turkish government is doing. So be there, 482 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: get involved. That's one way that we can, you know, 483 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: make our voices heard and try to push for a 484 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: change in policy. 485 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great. I think people should like 486 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: if you want an example of I guess the US complicity. 487 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: Like while I was in Kurdistan, there was a bombing 488 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 1: that killed thirty nine SI like internal security forces, and 489 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: that was like a plane that your tax dollars if 490 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: you live in the US developed, right, like an F 491 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: sixteen with munitions that you probably sold to them, and 492 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: the US is selling has sold more F sixteen since then, right, yes, yeah, 493 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: so like that is a thing that we could stop, 494 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: and that would concretely stop. Like I spoke to a 495 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: mother who lost her son. I think it was like 496 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen little football player. They had pictures of him 497 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: all over the house, right, Like it was really heartbreaking stuff. 498 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: And I know that this happens a lot in other 499 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: parts of the world. I'm not saying that's one important too, 500 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's always hard to talk to parents 501 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: who have lost their kids, and you can stop that happening. 502 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: If we don't sell them the F sixteens that do that, 503 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: then they don't have the ability to do it, at 504 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: least not as much. 505 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: And this is one way that we can connect struggles 506 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: and causes as well, because it's all the same companies 507 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: that are providing equipment to all of these states that 508 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: are doing this. You know, the targets are the same 509 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: for these kinds of campaigns. And look, you know all 510 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: of these governments, all of these corporations, they know that 511 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: they're on the same side. We don't always know that 512 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: we're on the same side too, And so I think 513 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: that getting together and pointing out the patterns and standing 514 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 2: against you know, these arms sales and security assistants in 515 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: the context of Kurdistan alongside many other contexts where they're 516 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: also very destructive, is an important way that we can 517 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 2: sort of amplify our efforts to do that. 518 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a very good, very good point. 519 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: Like I live in San Diego. Almost every single bomb 520 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: that has fallen on Palestine and many of the wads 521 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: a full on Kurdistan. Have you know the company that 522 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: sold that has an office here? Like if they're the 523 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: places where you can apply pressure in places where you 524 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: can hopefully make a change, Megan, where can people you 525 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,239 Speaker 1: mentioned like emailing you, Where can people find you? How 526 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: can people keep up to date with what's happening? In Kurdistan. 527 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. So you can go to Kurdishpeace dot org. 528 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: That's the website of our institute. If you go to 529 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: our about page, my contact is on there. You can 530 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: always reach out to me whether you have a question 531 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 2: about Kurdistan, you want to read our research and analysis. 532 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: You know you're a journalist or an analyst and you 533 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 2: want to submit something yourself, we can help you there. 534 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 2: We're also on Twitter at Kurdish piece org. And yeah, 535 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: that's a great way for you to follow. In the 536 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 2: English language. If you're looking for resource is on the ground, 537 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: you can follow North Press Agency, which publishes in English, 538 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: the Roulejeva Information Center which publishes in English. And then 539 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: you know, get involved with your local Kurdish community in 540 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 2: a lot of major cities in the US. If you're 541 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: in New York, if you're in Boston, if you're in 542 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: the DMV area, if you're in California, like you know, 543 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 2: there are active Kurdish communities, and you know, go to 544 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 2: a cultural event, go to a demonstration, you'll find both 545 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: great ways to get connected and really get plugged into 546 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: solidarity efforts. But also you know, a wonderful community and 547 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: a wonderful culture that I think, you know, anyone would be. 548 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 2: I've certainly been, you know, very happy to have experienced. 549 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, great, Thank you so much, Megan. That 550 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: was great. 551 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: Thank you. It Could Happen year as a production of 552 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, 553 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: visit our website zonemedia dot com, or check us out 554 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 555 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen here, 556 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.