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Speaker 1: Trust me. Trust me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived.

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Speaker 1: To you, If.

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Speaker 3: You think that one person has all the answers, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about colts, extreme belief

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Speaker 3: and the abusive power from two subs.

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Speaker 4: Who've actually experience it. My name is Lola.

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Speaker 5: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: Today our guest is Nicoletta Heidegger. She is a marriage

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Speaker 3: and family therapist who specializes in sex. She's also a

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Speaker 3: sexologist and host of podcasts Sluts and Scholars, which is

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Speaker 3: of course all about sex. So in this interview, she

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Speaker 3: teaches us one on one of BDSM and kink, what

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Speaker 3: consensual play looks like and signs that your BDSM relationship

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Speaker 3: has crossed over into non consensual or abusive.

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Speaker 5: We also talk about slave contracts, sex education in general,

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Speaker 5: Armie Hammer, and how cannibalism fantasies are not in apparently harmful,

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Speaker 5: but insisting on playing without a safe word can be.

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Speaker 4: That is right. I learned so much in this interview.

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Speaker 5: Me too.

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Speaker 3: I feel prepared to go out and like find me

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Speaker 3: a dom.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this interview blew my mind. I didn't realize

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Speaker 5: how sheltered from this world, I truly am.

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Speaker 3: We should also probably give a trigger warning because we

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Speaker 3: are going to get into some abuse talk and lots

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Speaker 3: of kink talk, so you know, don't don't have the

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Speaker 3: kids listen to this one.

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Speaker 4: Maybe, but hey, before we do that.

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Speaker 3: So, Megan, what was the cultiest thing that happened to

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Speaker 3: you this week?

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Speaker 5: Okay? So I have I had a friend who was

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Speaker 5: for sure a narcissist okay, mm hmmm, and I kind

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Speaker 5: of cut her out, and then this week I found

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Speaker 5: myself doing a favor for her.

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Speaker 4: Really, okay, so why.

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Speaker 5: I don't know. That's the thing. I mean, it came

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Speaker 5: out of like nowhere. It really seems like it just

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Speaker 5: fell out of the sky. But then if I look

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Speaker 5: at myself, I'm like, oh, I think I've been extra

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Speaker 5: stressed and anxious, and maybe it helps me unconsciously to

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Speaker 5: have somebody that stable in their wrongness.

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Speaker 4: So consistently wrong.

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Speaker 5: Anyway, I was like, well, this is bad, So I'm

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Speaker 5: gonna try to get back on the straight and narrow

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Speaker 5: with that one.

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Speaker 3: So she, I mean, I'm assuming it's a sheet, I'm

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Speaker 3: assuming gender.

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Speaker 5: Here it is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, did she just like hit you up out

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Speaker 4: of nowhere? And ask you for.

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Speaker 5: Something pretty much.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, oh good, Yeah sounds healthy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it's perfect.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I feel like we want to be the bigger

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Speaker 3: person even though someone is wrong to us, and we

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Speaker 3: feel like, I don't know if this is you, But

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Speaker 3: for me, I'm like, yeah, it's okay that you've been

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Speaker 3: terrible and shitty to me. I'm taking the high road.

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Speaker 3: But then of course it's just not go have a

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Speaker 3: good boundaries.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes exactly exactly yeah, And I mean I'm not a narcissist,

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Speaker 5: but I'm absolutely an awful person in many ways. So

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Speaker 5: I'm not like judging her or anything, but you know,

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Speaker 5: it is a it is a whole cult thing to

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Speaker 5: be friends with that kind of a person. You are

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Speaker 5: drawn into their orbit. So what was the cultiest thing

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Speaker 5: that happened to you?

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Speaker 3: Well, So there has been a big news item this

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Speaker 3: week that I am like sort of connected to and

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Speaker 3: it brought up a lot of things for me. Yesterday,

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Speaker 3: so Evan rachel Wood finally named Marilyn Manson as the

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Speaker 3: abusive partner that she's been talking about for a long time,

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Speaker 3: and we all knew it was Marilyn Manson, but she

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Speaker 3: officially named him and four other women also came forward

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Speaker 3: and the things he did were.

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Speaker 4: Like pretty horrific.

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Speaker 3: He's like very abusive, and all of these women have PTSD.

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Speaker 3: All of these women were extremely controlled assaulted.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's actually kind of relevant to what we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Today because some of what he did, I think he

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Speaker 3: would try to pass off as like being kinky or

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Speaker 3: just being like a weirdo, because he's like the goth boy,

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Speaker 3: and goth boys just do weird shit, you know. And

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Speaker 3: I do think that's how he got away with it

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Speaker 3: for so long, because that was part of his person up.

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Speaker 3: But so the thing that makes me connected to it

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Speaker 3: is that I actually dated him for a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks a few years ago, and I like wrote a

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Speaker 3: song about it, and it's like out there that this

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Speaker 3: happened between us. There's like an article that mentions it

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Speaker 3: and whatever. So I know that this man is abusive,

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Speaker 3: but he wasn't abusive to me. So that's a whole

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Speaker 3: nother thing. I'm like, well, I can't like participate in

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Speaker 3: this conversation. I don't need to participate in this conversation.

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Speaker 3: This is these women's story, But it is weird to

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Speaker 3: have somebody that you did date be this figure, you know,

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Speaker 3: because I'm like, why did I date that person? We've

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Speaker 3: talked about love bombing obviously, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm sure we've mentioned it, but go on, well.

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Speaker 3: Love bombing is exactly what it sounds like. It's a

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Speaker 3: very common cult tactic anyone who's new to the term.

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Speaker 3: It's basically just showering somebody with praise and affection and

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Speaker 3: adoration and making them feel so special and so wanted.

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Speaker 3: And Manson, he wouldn't let me call him Brian. He

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Speaker 3: made me call him Manson hilarious. Totally did this to

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Speaker 3: me one hundred percent. I have a line in my

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Speaker 3: song that I wrote which is literally about all of

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Speaker 3: the love bombing. And I here's the thing. I knew

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Speaker 3: it at the time, and I even said to my friends.

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Speaker 3: I was like, he's love bombing me. This is like

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Speaker 3: not real, none of this is real. This is like

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Speaker 3: clearly a very unhealthy person. But I didn't know anything

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Speaker 3: about his history of what he had done to other women.

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Speaker 3: I just was like, oh, Marilyn Manson, this rock icon

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Speaker 3: slid into my DMS after seeing me in something and

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Speaker 3: has like selected me, you know, And even though he's

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Speaker 3: a raging alcoholic and a raging drug addict like I

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Speaker 3: have never seen, like drinking vodka like it's water and

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Speaker 3: saying like fucked up things and behaving like an insane person.

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Speaker 3: I still was so interested in the experience of dating

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Speaker 3: that person that I was like, Okay, well this is

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Speaker 3: definitely going to go badly, but I'm not gonna not

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Speaker 3: do it, you know. He like was trying to get

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Speaker 3: me to go on tour with him, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I have a life. I can't like drop my life.

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Speaker 4: I have a dog. I can't like draw in my

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Speaker 4: life right now.

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Speaker 3: And then he promptly gohes to me after I refused

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Speaker 3: to like immediately go on tour with him, which is

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Speaker 3: for the best and I think I'm probably much safer

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Speaker 3: in the end. But the willingness of me, as a

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Speaker 3: person who is aware of all of these red flags,

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Speaker 3: like keenly keenly aware, you know, the willingness of me

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Speaker 3: to get involved with somebody like that just because of

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Speaker 3: his life status and because it would be like a

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Speaker 3: fun story potentially and putting myself at risk because of it. Like,

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Speaker 3: that's something that's been interesting for me to deal with.

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Speaker 5: This. Yeah, I bet something odd that I've noticed in

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Speaker 5: my life is in those moments when you do know somebody,

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Speaker 5: you're like, oh, this is love bombing, but this is

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Speaker 5: an exciting thing that I just want to watch where

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Speaker 5: it goes. But this is what they're doing to me,

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Speaker 5: and like, oh, and then they're gonna do this, and

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Speaker 5: then they're gonna do this, and then they're gonna do that. Right,

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Speaker 5: And if they don't go on tour, if they just

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Speaker 5: end up living here, you know what they're going to do.

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Speaker 5: But you're completely emotionally invested as if you don't. And

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Speaker 5: it is so weird because you are completely split in half.

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Speaker 5: You're like, right, I know, I'm so disenchanted and like disconnected,

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Speaker 5: and then this other side of you is like I

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Speaker 5: love him. It's so weird. So I'm so glad he

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Speaker 5: went on tour.

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Speaker 4: Man, it's hard to resist, it really is.

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Speaker 3: And I was like almost thirty at this point, so

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Speaker 3: I cannot imagine. And the age thing will come up

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Speaker 3: in this episode and obviously women should be able to

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Speaker 3: make their own fucking decisions.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I did say that there should be an age

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Speaker 5: liman on kink I think or like people should have

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Speaker 5: to be a certain age. I shouldn't have said that,

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Speaker 5: but I just I don't know. I don't want really

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Speaker 5: young girls getting in over their heads. But I'm not

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Speaker 5: the president of young girls, so.

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Speaker 3: No, And it's not about the girl's choices. It's about

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Speaker 3: the men who are older and have power to get

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Speaker 3: involved with that exactly the truth is.

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Speaker 4: And I do talk about this later on, and I've

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Speaker 4: been nineteen.

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Speaker 3: Oh for sure I would have dropped my life to

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Speaker 3: go with that person, Like for sure that person would

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Speaker 3: have like completely taken me over, no question. I would

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Speaker 3: not have been able to resist the appeal of an icon.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wouldn't have.

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Speaker 3: And even at almost thirty, I almost didn't, even though

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Speaker 3: I was like, this guy's so fucked up. He literally

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Speaker 3: was repeating himself all the time, just so drunk, throwing

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Speaker 3: bottles at people, like getting in bites, like had racist

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Speaker 3: shit in his house, Like was like maybe two and

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Speaker 3: a half weeks. But I'm ashamed that it even went

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Speaker 3: on that long.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I hear that.

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Speaker 3: God, so many abusive celebrities in the news this past month.

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Speaker 3: We have Shilah buff we have Armie Hammer, we have

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Speaker 3: Marilyn Manson, probably more I'm forgetting, And it all comes

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Speaker 3: together in this episode, it does it.

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Speaker 5: No, they don't.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: What we're trying to say here, guys, is important to

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Speaker 3: if you're going to explore something like BDSM, it's important

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Speaker 3: to understand what the healthy version of it looks like

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Speaker 3: and the unhealthy version of it looks like.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk to Nicoletta.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Nicoletta Heideger. Thank you for coming on.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. It's so funny being

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the interview.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome.

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Speaker 3: Is your last name is Martin Heideger in your family

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Speaker 3: or is that just a common last name that I

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Speaker 3: didn't no was common.

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Speaker 1: I get that question a lot, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: there's any relation, which I'm fine with because I'm Jewish

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Speaker 1: and he was not a big fan of.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's right.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say no. Great.

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Speaker 4: So tell us about your background and what you do.

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Speaker 1: So. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I

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Speaker 1: work in a private practice in Los Angeles, and I

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Speaker 1: also do equine therapy, which is like helping people in

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Speaker 1: therapy with horses, which I was going to do with

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Speaker 1: what we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 5: Nice, But my specialization in my.

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Speaker 1: Practice is all things sex related, so sex therapy. I'm

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Speaker 1: a sexologist, which basically just means that I study sex.

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Speaker 1: I'm currently finishing up my PhD for that, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: when I'm not seeing clients, I also host a sex

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Speaker 1: podcast called Sluts and.

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Speaker 4: Scholars, Yeah, which is awesome.

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Speaker 5: I love it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Have you participated in BDSM or kink as a lifestyle yourself?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't call myself a life style person, so

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Speaker 1: a lifestyle person. It's more really part of our everyday protocol.

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Speaker 1: But I definitely engage on it in my own personal

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Speaker 1: partnerships and it's something that I work with with a

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Speaker 1: lot of clients on.

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Speaker 3: Great, then you're the perfect person to be talking to.

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Speaker 3: So let's start with the basics. Let's help the nubes out.

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Speaker 3: So BDSM stands for bondage and discipline, dominance, it's a mission.

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Speaker 3: I'm butchering words right now, dominance and submission and sato masochism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sadism and masochism. So it's four letters that stands

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Speaker 1: for like six words like multiple three couplings.

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Speaker 3: I learned that today. I assumed it was four words

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Speaker 3: like a nube. So describe to us what BDSM is,

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Speaker 3: What does it look like give us the rundown.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think when a lot of people hear BDSM,

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Speaker 1: if they haven't really been familiarized with it before or

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Speaker 1: just know it from pop culture, they might immediately think

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Speaker 1: that it has to do with like pain and whips

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Speaker 1: and chains and really intense stuff. But I kind of

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Speaker 1: like to think that we all have done some kind

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Speaker 1: of kink or BDSM in the structures of our sex relationships,

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Speaker 1: because really a lot of it is just like powerplay

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Speaker 1: and power dynamics and the exchange of energy, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be violent, it doesn't have to be

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Speaker 1: require whips and chains and all those things. So it's

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Speaker 1: really just kind of this broad word for people who

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Speaker 1: do stuff that is that involves some kind of power exchange,

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Speaker 1: some kind of power dynamic And to me, like sex

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Speaker 1: always includes some kind of power dynamics. So I think

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Speaker 1: we're all we're all into BDSM in some way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form.

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Speaker 4: That's a quote for the ages.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, most people, I think probably picture something like fifty

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Speaker 3: shades where there's a red torture room and a contract

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Speaker 3: And we'll get into the contract thing later because I

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Speaker 3: do want to talk about that, but so I do

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Speaker 3: want to just lay out some examples of what powerplay

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Speaker 3: can look like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like what kink and BDSM can look like. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I mean I think it can look like everything

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Speaker 1: from some light spanking to being blindfolded to being tied

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Speaker 1: up in some way, shape or form. It can also

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Speaker 1: look like, I don't know, having some protocol with a

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Speaker 1: partner where you agree that you will always leave the

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Speaker 1: toilet lit up, and that's something that like you've agreed

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Speaker 1: upon together in your relationship, So something like not even

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Speaker 1: sex related at all. It can be folks who are

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Speaker 1: interested in latex as a fetish. It can be folks

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Speaker 1: who are just interested in like playing outside the box

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Speaker 1: of things and challenging their own like sexuality roles. I

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Speaker 1: would say in some of my relationships, it really depends

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Speaker 1: based on like what that partner is interested in. But

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Speaker 1: it can also look like, you know, going to parties

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Speaker 1: and events and really finding like community with a group

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Speaker 1: of like minded people who are also interested in expanding

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Speaker 1: their sexual horizons.

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Speaker 3: Right, right, right, What are some of the hallmarks of

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Speaker 3: a consensual BDSM relationship. What kind of conversations are happening

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Speaker 3: in advance versus just guessing.

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Speaker 1: This is what I wish that, like all folks could

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Speaker 1: learn from kink and BDSM and why I wish that

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Speaker 1: all folks maybe acknowledged that they were somewhere on the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: even if you're just having missionary as you would call

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Speaker 1: vanilla sex. So there used to be an acronym in

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Speaker 1: the kink community called SSS, which stood for safe, sane

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Speaker 1: and consensual. That's shifted a little bit now, but basically

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Speaker 1: what that meant is that whatever you're engaging in sexually,

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Speaker 1: it was safe, so you knew what the potential. You know,

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Speaker 1: risks were sane, meaning that you were in like the

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Speaker 1: right state of mind to be able to consent, and

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Speaker 1: that whatever the power dynamic was, you were kind of

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Speaker 1: able to agree to whatever was going to happen. And

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Speaker 1: then consensual so two or more consenting adults, right. That's

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Speaker 1: shifted now to another acronym called RACK, which stands for

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Speaker 1: risk aware consensual kink. So they took away the words

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Speaker 1: safe because some kink and bed practices are not quote

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Speaker 1: unquote safe. Basically, there's no sex that is safe, they're

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Speaker 1: just safer sex. So there are some people who get

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Speaker 1: into different kinds of play, whether that involve hooks and

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Speaker 1: needles or spanking or hitting, you know, just things that

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Speaker 1: could potentially bruise you or hurt you physically or challenge

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Speaker 1: you emotionally in some way, shape or form. And so

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Speaker 1: with that, risk aware is kind of a more broad

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Speaker 1: term of like you know the risks, but you're okay

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Speaker 1: with it, just like someone who smokes cigarettes. They probably

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Speaker 1: know what the risks are, but they're like, I'm informed,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do this shit anyway. So risk aware

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Speaker 1: and then contensual.

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Speaker 5: Mm hmmm, well I liked all I've felt like you

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Speaker 5: skipped over something about the fifty shades question? Are you

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Speaker 5: are you interested in hitting that right now?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 5: What did fifty Shades of Gray get wrong?

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of whatever fantasy you're into is

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Speaker 1: fine because it's fantasy, And so for me, I would

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Speaker 1: say I didn't have as many problems with fifty Shades

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Speaker 1: of But that's only because I'm informed on so many

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Speaker 1: other levels about kink and sex and consent and BDSM,

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Speaker 1: and so I feel like I'm able to take a

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Speaker 1: step back when I need to and really look at like, okay,

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Speaker 1: what's potentially like abusive and not looking good in this situation?

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of wrong ways to

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Speaker 1: do BDSM, but obviously when it comes to consent and abuse,

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Speaker 1: that's you know different, and so a lot of folks,

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Speaker 1: though unfortunately fifty Shades of Gray, might have been their

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Speaker 1: only exposure to this or their first exposure, right, and

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't really give that new person a discerning

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Speaker 1: lens on like what kink and BDSM actually can look

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Speaker 1: like and what a quote unquote healthier example of it is.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that's my main issue with it.

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Speaker 1: It's not so much that that content was put out there,

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Speaker 1: it's that we don't have comprehensive sex ed to show

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Speaker 1: people what it can look like. And in terms of

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Speaker 1: that specifically, you know, I think one of the main

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Speaker 1: things was that it really associated like dominance and kink

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Speaker 1: and BDSM with like someone who has trauma or someone

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Speaker 1: who's like fucked up beyond repair in some way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form. And while I think it's totally fine if

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Speaker 1: folks are attracted to kink and BDSM because they have

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Speaker 1: had trauma and they're looking to it as a way

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Speaker 1: to sort of have a corrective, informed experience, it kind

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Speaker 1: of reiterates this negative stereotype that there must be something

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Speaker 1: wrong with you if you're into like beating somebody up.

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Speaker 4: Especially.

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Speaker 3: That actually is the perfect segue into my next question,

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Speaker 3: because this subject has come up a lot in the

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Speaker 3: past couple of weeks, primarily because of the army hammer stuff.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, that is a really really common perception that

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Speaker 3: people who are into BDSM or into you know, sort

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Speaker 3: of extreme kink have trauma in their past that like

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Speaker 3: formed that kink for them.

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Speaker 4: My friend actually wanted me to.

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Speaker 3: Ask specifically, can someone with a totally healthy childhood and

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Speaker 3: background develop a similarly healthy interest in these same kinks.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if I know anyone who I

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Speaker 1: would say has a totally healthy upbringing and child If

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Speaker 1: you know, if you know that person, send them my way,

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Speaker 1: because I would love to hear what that looks like.

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Speaker 1: But yes, of course there's a spectrum of trauma, and

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Speaker 1: I would certainly say that there are people I know

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Speaker 1: who have just always been interested in it and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to do with anything that they can maybe

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Speaker 1: put their finger on or any you know, standout trauma.

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Speaker 1: And I know lots of people who have had trauma

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Speaker 1: who have turned to kink and BDSM as kind of

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Speaker 1: part of their a therapeutic way to regain their own

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Speaker 1: sense of power and claiming of their sexuality. And I

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Speaker 1: think that can be really powerful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's really cool.

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Speaker 5: Do you recommend when people explore this that they do

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Speaker 5: see a therapist at first?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I would say I would say certainly, yes. I

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Speaker 1: mean I think with anything that we're trying, that's new, right,

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Speaker 1: it's good to have a little more insight on yourself

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Speaker 1: what's leading to this. I don't think you need to

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Speaker 1: know an answer to like why am I interested in

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Speaker 1: this in a way that's shaming you? But it's kind

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Speaker 1: of maybe part of that risk aware thing of like

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Speaker 1: what is this going to trigger for me? Do I

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Speaker 1: know what my triggers are? How do I take care

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Speaker 1: of myself when triggers do come up? How do I

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Speaker 1: communicate my needs? And if that's not something that you've

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Speaker 1: explored with yourself, then I think things can get a

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Speaker 1: little more dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Right, So let's get into just I want to use

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Speaker 3: the Army Hammer's stuff as a jumping off point here,

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Speaker 3: so if anyone's not up to speed, because I do

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Speaker 3: know a number of people who still think that the

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Speaker 3: messages were fake, Oh Bo Army Hammer. He's been in

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Speaker 3: the news recently for his cannibalistic messages, which at first

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Speaker 3: just seemed kind of funny and people were saying they

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Speaker 3: were fake. Now it seems like they definitely were not,

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Speaker 3: because he has two different ex girlfriends separate from that

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Speaker 3: account that was posing that that have now come out

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Speaker 3: and said that not only did he bring up consuming

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Speaker 3: them in their relationships and talking about breaking their ribs

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Speaker 3: and barbecuing them and drinking their blood. Not only was

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Speaker 3: there the cannibalism stuff, which is its own kink, which

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Speaker 3: I would also like to talk about, but more importantly,

404
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Speaker 3: one of the exes said he did things she wasn't

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Speaker 3: comfortable with. He told one of his exes that it

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Speaker 3: was more fun without a safe word. I'm mixing up

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Speaker 3: which woman I'm talking about, but bear with me here.

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Speaker 3: One of them said it was too much quote too

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Speaker 3: much having a belt clasped around her neck and all

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Speaker 3: he said was yes, and he clasped it anyway. And

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Speaker 3: these are much younger women, it seems most of the time.

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Speaker 3: He's very famous, powerful man in his thirties. These are

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Speaker 3: women who are it seems like, largely new to kink

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Speaker 3: and new to BDSM and this is their first experience,

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Speaker 3: and some of them are kind of just now realizing

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Speaker 3: that they weren't necessarily as consensual as they thought they

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Speaker 3: were at the time. Are there specific things in there

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Speaker 3: that are red flags for you of like what is

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Speaker 3: not a consensual encounter?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're hooking up with someone who says it's

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Speaker 1: more fun without a safe word, run for the fucking hill.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Ongoing consent I think is crucial as well as check ins.

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Speaker 1: One of the kind of basic check ins for like

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Speaker 1: kink beginners, and I honestly tell this to couples of

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Speaker 1: mine who don't identify as kinky or into BDSM is

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Speaker 1: like the red light, yellow light, green light, And so

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Speaker 1: just asking a partner like what's your color? So red

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Speaker 1: means like stop, I need to get out of this immediately,

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Speaker 1: like untimey, you know, asap. Yellow is like something's feeling

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Speaker 1: a little funny, like we need to check in, and

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Speaker 1: green is like hit me harder. But I think it's

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Speaker 1: up to you to come up with whatever you want

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Speaker 1: that to look like with whoever you're playing with. But

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Speaker 1: no safe word, I think is never a good idea.

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Speaker 1: And when we talk about safe words too. It's also

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Speaker 1: important to acknowledge that one of the stress and trauma

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Speaker 1: responses in the body is what's known as a freeze response.

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Speaker 1: And so if you don't know what that is, it's

440
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 1: basically like when you're driving and you see a rabbit

441
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: or a squirrel run out in front of your car

442
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: and it stops and looks at you, like right in

443
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 1: front of your car. That's the animal freeze response. And

444
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 1: so when we are froz we may become nonverbal, we

445
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: may not feel like we can say anything, and that

446
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,239
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we want things to happen right. And

447
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: so when we say safe words, sometimes it's words, but

448
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: sometimes it's also check in. Sometimes it's a body gesture

449
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: that two or more playing partners have agreed to beforehand,

450
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 1: and that's why ongoing check ins are important. So I

451
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: would say that's a red flag of not having a

452
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: safe word. I feel like I need to shout this

453
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: out because I'm sure it like grosses people out. But

454
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: like the cannibalism and what some people would call vre,

455
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard the word vor, but

456
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: more is basically the like desire to consume or be

457
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: consumed by someone and so that doesn't have to necessarily

458
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: look like cannibalism, but it's kind of this like almost

459
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: this desire to be like absorbed by somebody, and for

460
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: me that in and of itself, if you're finding consensual

461
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: people to like do that with in a risk awar way,

462
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: like no problem. I mean, I don't know if I

463
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,479
Speaker 1: would go as far to you know, I know there

464
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: was this famed guy on Craig's list who was in

465
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: Germany who was like, come kill me and eat me

466
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 1: basically and found someone to do that. Like, I don't know.

467
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: I have mixed feelings about it because it's like, was

468
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: this consensual? Was this informed? I guess it's aware. You

469
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: know you're gonna die, right, But I would say, in

470
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: and of itself, like, none of that is bothersome to me.

471
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: If you are informed about it, and if you know

472
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: the safety risks and hazards someone like Army Hammer, it

473
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like I mean, look, I don't know him,

474
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: he's not my client, so I can't totally psychoanalyze him,

475
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: but it does seem like he's not informed or there

476
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: was certainly like shame around some of these things, which

477
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: is understandable, but as a result, it doesn't sound like

478
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: he got any proper education tools of like how to

479
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: discuss something beforehand, how to provide aftercare. Aftercare meaning, let's

480
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: check in about what we did, what felt good, what

481
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 1: didn't feel good? Was there anything trigger? What would you

482
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: like to see happen differently next time? Right? It was

483
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: very one sided. Right and dominant doesn't mean one sided.

484
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 3: Oh, that is such an important point because I've I've

485
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 3: been trying to articulate it when talking about it with friends.

486
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 3: I'm like, I know the person who's submitting, they're supposed

487
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 3: to have power. It just is maybe not visible in

488
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: the way that they're playing, but there is power that

489
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 3: they're supposed to have. And for him, I mean whatever,

490
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 3: we don't need to get too too deep into his

491
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 3: particular psyche. But it does seem like that was part

492
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 3: of the kink, right, saying it's more fun without safe words,

493
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: ignoring the consent, having the unhealthy levels of control. It

494
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,959
Speaker 3: seems that way to me, obviously, Like, don't sue me,

495
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 3: it is my opinion.

496
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 5: Allegedly, it is my person. Armie Hammer is a huge

497
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 5: fan of this podcast.

498
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: Honestly, though, like I feel like this is would be

499
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: tabooed to say. But like if the stuff he was

500
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: doing was consensual and he was like better informed at it,

501
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: like I would have played I played with him, right, Yeah, no, right,

502
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: but most of it wasn't. And they're also you know,

503
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: the news isn't showing us what the discussions were, right,

504
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: all we're all we're seeing is like what went wrong?

505
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: And then the power dynamic I think is off. Right.

506
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: Consent can feel like a tricky thing, but it's not

507
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: it or doesn't have to be. It shouldn't be. And

508
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: so if you feel like you can't say no, that's

509
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: not consent right right.

510
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 5: It makes me feel like I want to put like

511
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 5: an age on this kind of stuff, like you have

512
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 5: to be twenty five to do it or something. And

513
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 5: I know that's impractical and stupid, but it just seems

514
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 5: dangerous for people with no experience to be with experienced

515
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 5: people in this realm.

516
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately, I've certainly hooked up with like forty

517
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: and beyond people who still have no insight into themselves.

518
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: I I don't know if it's an age thing, but

519
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 2: I do think that it would be great if people

520
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 2: did some work on themselves and explore that and had

521
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: a safe place, whether that be therapy or a community

522
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: to support that. And that's why I also think that potentially,

523
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: I don't want to say it's a red flag if

524
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: you're engaging in kink by yourself, because I don't think

525
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: that's necessarily true, but I do think that a community

526
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: can sometimes be a check in balance of the kink

527
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 2: that we engage in, and of getting more education and

528
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 2: of having mentors and you know, finding ways to check

529
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: ourselves and learn more about ourselves. I also think that,

530
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: and I learned this from a dominant that I worked with,

531
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: was that if you want to do something to someone else,

532
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: you should really practice having it done to you first,

533
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: so that you know what it's like, even if that's

534
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 2: not what you're interested in, but just to know, like, Okay, well,

535
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: what does this stinging feeling feel like of cracking the

536
00:26:59,119 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: whip on my skin?

537
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: What does it feel like to bite somebody? And granted

538
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: we're all different and are going to have different experiences,

539
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: but to have that sort of knowledge and experience can

540
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: be really key.

541
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm, yeah, what you're asking for? Yeah, I like that.

542
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like it's really just all about communication.

543
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 3: And to your point of like we all should be

544
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 3: communicating more, we all should be communicating more.

545
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: It's just a thing people.

546
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 3: Struggle with in general, but let alone when it comes

547
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 3: to something that you know they might feel shame about.

548
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 3: I had an ex boyfriend who I couldn't get him

549
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: to tell me what he was into, and I had

550
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 3: my suspicions based on a few different cues, but like,

551
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: we were never able to really have an open discussion

552
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: about what it was that he wanted, and I was

553
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: very open to doing whatever it was. And I don't

554
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: know what the solution is to that, other than just

555
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 3: like talking about sex more and not having it be

556
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 3: this thing that we hide away and pretend shouldn't be

557
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 3: talked about.

558
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: There are apps and like online things that folks can

559
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 1: do if they're you know, struggling to verbalize it at first,

560
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: just to at least get the ball rolling and get

561
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: the conversation going. So there's a couple of different apps

562
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: where you can kind of like swipe things that you're

563
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: interested in doing and then have a partner also swipe,

564
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: and then it will only match kind of like a

565
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: Tinder thing, it'll only match the ones that sign up

566
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: on there's also ones that kind of promote questions. Obviously,

567
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: you could go to a sex therapist. There's lots of

568
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: wonderful professional dominatrix folks. I'm in the LA area, but

569
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: they're all over the place that you can hire for

570
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: virtual or in person consultations and classes and sessions and coaching,

571
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: which I would recommend even to like seasoned folks just

572
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: to get new you know, perspectives and new education. And

573
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 1: then there's also like online sex questionnaires that basically have

574
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: a whole list of in depth stuff and you get

575
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: to kind of put those red, yellow green light stuff

576
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: next to them of like and I'm happy to send

577
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: it to you, and you can put it in the

578
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: show notes for folks who want to give it a try.

579
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: But it basically says like, oh, this is something that

580
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm done to try. This is something that I'm a

581
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: little bit iffy about. This is something I've been interested in,

582
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: but I'm scared to do. This is no this is

583
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: a hard limit. And you get to kind of explore

584
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: that together. So that can you a stepping stone to

585
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: just like verbalizing it, I think.

586
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 5: Right right right, Yeah.

587
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: So one of the things we talk about on this

588
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: podcast a lot is having multiple sources of information, because

589
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: whenever you only have one person who's telling you how

590
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 3: things work, that's when you get into dangerous territory with

591
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 3: cult leaders or with abusive.

592
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 4: Dynamics in general.

593
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 3: And I think what you're saying resonates in terms of

594
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: that as well, because if the only person you're getting

595
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: your information about BDSM from is your partner, who's your

596
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: first foray into it, that seems like a potentially risky situation.

597
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: So yeah, getting into a community getting some diversity of

598
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 3: information seems like something that could be really important.

599
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I totally. I think that's a great point and

600
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: a great idea.

601
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 3: I just want to get into This sort of speaks

602
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 3: to Megan's point about like the age limit, Like, so,

603
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 3: even if somebody is ostensibly consenting, at what point.

604
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 4: How do you know if it's grooming?

605
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: How do you know if it's coercion, if it's somebody

606
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: who has a lot more power than you, Like, how

607
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 3: can you kind of protect yourself and proceed carefully?

608
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,479
Speaker 4: Do you have thoughts on that?

609
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're asking like, how do you know when

610
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: it's becoming abusive?

611
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 4: Yeah?

612
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: I think if you're leaving the well basically if you're

613
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: engaging in kink. Often when people play, it's called the scene,

614
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: So if I use that word, that's what that means.

615
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: But if you're leaving the scenes feeling shitty, and sometimes

616
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: it can feel like a high sometimes when people play

617
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: in the kink and be DASLM realm. So there's something

618
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: called dom drop or sub drop, which is basically like afterwards.

619
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a drop in energy almost like

620
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: I just partied all weekend and now I'm feeling shitty,

621
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: And that's when you might need something which is called aftercare,

622
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: which is something that you do for yourself or with

623
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: that particular partner, either right after in the days following.

624
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: Usually you like check in with each other. So I

625
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: don't mean leaving feeling shitty in that way, but I mean, like,

626
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, leaving feeling worse I guess than when you

627
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: came in really listening to your body and having like

628
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: a not good you know, that kind of fight or

629
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: flight response. I agree with what you said about having

630
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: some checks and balances of community or a therapist, And

631
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: in terms of finding a therapist, make sure that they

632
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: are like kink aware and informed too, because you might

633
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: be like, Oh, I so loved getting hit by my

634
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: dom last night and I've got these bruises all over

635
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: my ass and you love it and you feel great

636
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: about it. But if you're going to a therapist that's

637
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: not kink aware, they might think, oh, that's abuse, right,

638
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: which is not. And so I think, you know, if

639
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: you're getting feedback from other people who are expressing concern

640
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: for you, if this person has isolated you from asking

641
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: questions and from you know, connecting with other people, if

642
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: this person is unwilling to wait and stop the play

643
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: and revisit stuff and talk about it, I would say

644
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: that's not a great situation. If there is no safe word,

645
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: if there's no discussion before about what the limits are,

646
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: If this person isn't willing to go at a pace

647
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: that works for you, that doesn't necessarily mean I guess abuse,

648
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: but maybe it's not the right fit. Those, I would say,

649
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: are all some some red flags.

650
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 4: That's a really helpful list.

651
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: I also was wondering, like, I have very very brief

652
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: experience with someone who was what do you say a

653
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 3: dom dom?

654
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,239
Speaker 4: How do you describe it?

655
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, a dom?

656
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 4: A dom sure.

657
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 5: Sounds like mad.

658
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: And it was it was very fun. It was very hot.

659
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I ultimately don't think I could do it

660
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: as a lifestyle to the extent that he does it

661
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 3: as a lifestyle. He's had like live in maids and

662
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: slaves and stuff like that. I think that that's too

663
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 3: much for me. But one thing I noticed and was

664
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: curious about was like, Okay, so scenes, you have your

665
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: scenes that you're doing, but then I noticed that the

666
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 3: power dynamics would kind of bleed out into not just

667
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 3: like during the course of the scene, also you know,

668
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 3: texts about that play with like controlling what you're doing.

669
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 4: So that stuff is where I.

670
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: Get kind of confused. I'm like, at what point is

671
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: it a sexual thing? And at what point are you

672
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: just do you just have a really controlling partner who

673
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:46,239
Speaker 3: you know?

674
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, So for people who don't know, like I guess

675
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: some of the words you were using. You said the

676
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: word slave, which can obviously be like triggering I think

677
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: for some people, giving given the you know, historical connotation.

678
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: And so I think there's different levels, like I said,

679
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: of the way people engage in this. So there are

680
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: some people who would call themselves a pro dom so

681
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: that would be a pro dominant, that's more like someone

682
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: who's you know, teaching classes, who's done a lot of trainings,

683
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: who maybe runs their own dungeon where they see clients

684
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: and where they do educational opportunities. And then there are

685
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, just people who are in their own personal

686
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: life say that they are a dominant. That doesn't necessarily

687
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: mean that they are professional. So that can be another

688
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: like red flag too. If you like meet some random

689
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: person online and they're like, I'm a dom or like

690
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: I'm learning how to be a dom Not to say

691
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: you shouldn't explore that with them, but that would be

692
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: a good thing to have some more questions about, I

693
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 1: would say, and not just like random you know, tender

694
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: person who's like, let me be your daddy right after that,

695
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: right right, That kind of relationship requires a lot of

696
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: trust and can take time to build and then going

697
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: back to the slave things. So basically with that can

698
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: look like is it's what's called a twenty four to

699
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: seven relationship, a twenty four seven lifestyle dynamic. And so

700
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: that means that the kink and BDSM protocol or rules

701
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: extend beyond just sex and kink and BDSM doesn't ever

702
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: have to really be sexual. I think it can be

703
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: sexual in nature, but a lot of times when people

704
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: have a scene, it doesn't have to or necessarily involve

705
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: like genital touching or orgasm. It can involve other things

706
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: like sensation play, meaning really getting into the sensations of

707
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: your body, really feeling different instruments on your body, and

708
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: really leaning into that. But a slave dynamic is where

709
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: there's sort of an agreed upon dominant and submissive thing

710
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: as a lifestyle. And so just to give you an

711
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: example of that, I knew someone who was married to

712
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: his slave and they would have certain protocol about, you know,

713
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: things that she would do around the house for example,

714
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: like leaving the toilet seat lid up for him or

715
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: making the bed a certain way. And I think with

716
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: that it's really more about that risk awareness and being

717
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: curious about like what is this bringing to me? Is

718
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: this making me feel good? Or am I feeling controlled

719
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: in a not good way? Because if you're someone who

720
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: really likes being told what to do and that's helpful

721
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: in your life, like great, you know that lines up

722
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: just fine. It doesn't always have to be sexual. It

723
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: can also look like, I don't know, cooking for that partner,

724
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: shining their boots, shining their latex, cleaning their dungeon, cleaning

725
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: your own house, and sending pictures afterwards to your dominant person.

726
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: But even with that, I would say most folks I

727
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: know that engage in that. They still communicate, you know,

728
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: they still talk about and check in with what's working,

729
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: and negotiate and renegotiate val There are some people I

730
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: know who maybe have negotiated not to have that, but

731
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: I think that that really has to be a very specific,

732
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: informed dynamic.

733
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 5: Do you think it's rare for people to look back

734
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 5: after a couple of years of a relationship and be like,

735
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 5: holy shit, that was not okay? Is it? Most of

736
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 5: the time people are well enough informed that they're like,

737
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 5: we're in this together, and I know what it is.

738
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: I don't think it's rare, and not just in king

739
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: and BDSM. I think because of the lack of like

740
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: sex education and talking about sex, but also you know,

741
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: I myself, with all of my knowledge and all of

742
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: my experiences, like I've been in some abusive dynamics myself,

743
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: and I think it's it can be so hard to

744
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: see you when you're in it. You know, and you

745
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: have and that's where those checks and balances come in

746
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: of community and confidants and people that you're talking to

747
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: that are supporting you, because it can really happen to anybody.

748
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: It's not just people in KINGK and BDSM, it's you know,

749
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: any anyone. And so I do think that because of

750
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: some of that lack of education, but also because sometimes

751
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: sometimes people who are manipulative and sociopathic in certain ways

752
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: are really good at what they do. You know, they're

753
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: really charming and they're really believable, and they really bring

754
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: you in or they do just enough to keep you

755
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: like waiting for the crumbs of that connection. So if

756
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: you've you know, been vulnerable to that, don't blame yourself.

757
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: I mean, there's Sony. Anyone can be vulnerable to that.

758
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 4: Oh totally.

759
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so I think there are lots of folks

760
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: who come away from something and once they've gotten some

761
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: space and some distance and then some processing that they're like, oh,

762
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: actually this really wasn't This really wasn't good for me,

763
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: or this really didn't feel good for me, this really

764
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: wasn't pleasurable.

765
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 4: Yeah right, I've been there, Yeah, same yeah.

766
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: And did you I mean, do you think you knew

767
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: when you were in it? Like, sometimes we do.

768
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question. I was about to say,

769
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 5: oh no, but yes, of course I've been in situations

770
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 5: where I'm like, this is not going great.

771
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: But sometimes we make excuses.

772
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, right, Yeah, I've definitely I've been in an

773
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 3: emotionally abusive relationship where I knew it was happening and

774
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 3: I was able to name it as abuse, but I

775
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: was holding on to the hope of change, you know.

776
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 5: But yeah, it is really cool to think about it

777
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 5: in the ways that it does help people and helps

778
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 5: people grow and is a positive thing because I think,

779
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 5: you know, Lola and I come from a backstory of

780
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 5: like people putting control over us. So we've been talking

781
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 5: a lot about Naxium lately, and it has a lot

782
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 5: of these same things going on in it, so it's

783
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 5: just hard to separate sometimes.

784
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about nexim actually, and we've kind of

785
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: touched on most of this already. But I just like,

786
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: from the outside, I think it seems really obvious that

787
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 3: it was an abusive culty situation. He like you know,

788
00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 3: was branding women's bodies. He had them locked in cages. Actually,

789
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 3: recently learned I didn't know the extent of it, but

790
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: he paddled or even kicked some of the women under

791
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 3: the guise of it being for their growth. And when

792
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: I first started hearing about this, I was like, Oh,

793
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 3: that's terrible, that's abusive. And then my mom told me,

794
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 3: and we've talked about this on another episode. My mom

795
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: told me because she knew him separate from our other

796
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: cult leader. Long story, she sort of dated him, like

797
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 3: she sort of had a thing with him, like ten

798
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 3: twenty years before he started an exim when I was

799
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: a kid, and he gave her a slave contract and

800
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 3: she did actually sign it, but she tore it up

801
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: the next day because she like got totally freaked out.

802
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: And Yeah, So for people who don't know, like slave

803
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: contract is basically, like I guess, kind of like they

804
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: have in fifty Shades of gray in some way, shape

805
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: or form, where it's this written out, like here's our protocol, right,

806
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: we agree to and this is what happens when the

807
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 1: protocol isn't met.

808
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 4: And his said there was no time limit, it was

809
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 4: for all time.

810
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: From like a business perspective, I would never sign a

811
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: contract that's has for eternity.

812
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 5: Right right totally.

813
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: I think it's great if you want to engage in

814
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: that for a time, but like there should always be

815
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: the ability to renegotiate or cancel this clause within thirty

816
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: days notice, or like I think that's a good thing.

817
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: Yes, So clearly this man had been sort of planning

818
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 3: this thing that he was building for a long time.

819
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 3: He obviously wanted to have slaves and created an entire

820
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 3: ass sex slafe pyramid, which is insane, but I can

821
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 3: imagine being in it and thinking, oh, well, this is

822
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: just this kinky thing that we do. It kind of

823
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: refrained it for me a little bit because I thought

824
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: of it as abuse, and then I realized that my

825
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 3: mom had sort of had this kinkier dynamic with him,

826
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 3: which she quickly shut down. But I could see that

827
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 3: being something that happens gradually over time. And it's the

828
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 3: gradually overtime part that I guess I want to talk

829
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 3: about because something might seem innocuous, or it might seem

830
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 3: like it's just fun and hot at first, and then

831
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 3: over time it changes and you get more comfortable with

832
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 3: more and more things.

833
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you're if you feel

834
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: comfortable saying or if your mom shared with you, but like,

835
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: when did she think, Okay, this is not doesn't feel right.

836
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 3: I think right the day after she signed the contract,

837
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 3: because she was really really new to all of it.

838
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: She had been excommunicated from the Mormon Church very recently,

839
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 3: and so it felt it all just felt like too

840
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 3: much for her very quickly. But I think specifically because

841
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: of her background, and I think he got better at

842
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: the gradual thing.

843
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I do believe that, Like like I was saying, if, if,

844
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: and when we're in what I would call a trauma response,

845
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 1: you know, if our nervous system gets overloaded and goes

846
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: back to a past trauma or you know, is feeling

847
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: a trauma stress response in the moment, I think it

848
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: can sometimes be hard to discern, you know, what's going on,

849
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: especially if we're in that response. And folks who have

850
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: had trauma in their lives are more susceptible to having

851
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: and not just any trauma, but I think sexual trauma

852
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: and relational trauma are more susceptible to having it again,

853
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, especially if they haven't done any work around it,

854
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 1: because of what can kind of happen in the nervous

855
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: system with that trauma response or just that person's notions

856
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: of their boundaries or how to listen to themselves and

857
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: what cues to listen to and working through that. And

858
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: so I can't speak as to like what would feel

859
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: like a red flag for every person, but I would

860
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: say probably the most helpful thing for me and my

861
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: own experiences was talking to other people, right, And so

862
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: while I think it's crucial that we do, like trust ourselves,

863
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: if you've had a life where you haven't felt like

864
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: you could be in your body, or where your body

865
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: wasn't safe and you didn't feel like you could trust yourself,

866
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: are there some folks that you can talk to outside

867
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: of the experience, other people who have nothing no skin

868
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: in the game, you know, not just talking about that

869
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 1: one person that you trust who's your daddy or your

870
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: dom or whatever, but other people outside of it who

871
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: have no yeah, like I said, no skin in the game,

872
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: and talking to them and getting feedback. I think having

873
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: a more objective person to commune with.

874
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 5: It's definitely a complex thing to get into.

875
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to scare people from kink

876
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: and beds because I think it's totally I think it's

877
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: wonderful and most of my experiences in the community have

878
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 1: been pleasure filled and exciting and wonderful, and I've learned

879
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: a lot about myself about other people about better communication.

880
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: I think it would be further stigmatizing to say that

881
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: it's just about the kink and BDSM stuff. I think

882
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: that can happen in any relationship and in any dynamic.

883
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: I think it often just gets more put in the

884
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: news when it's has the salacious details of kink and

885
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: BDSM totally, and it can certainly maybe look like it

886
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: has higher stakes because of the way that people are

887
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: playing in kink DSM. But don't let this deter you

888
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: from exploring an area where there are a lot of

889
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: folks who do communicate better, who have done that insight work.

890
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: But you know, just like any community, there's going to

891
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: be shitty people everywhere. So the kink community is not

892
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: safe from shitty narcissistic manipulators. The non kiki community is

893
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: not safe. There are those folks everywhere, and it's not

894
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: just people who are kinky.

895
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,959
Speaker 3: So a healthy, a healthy starting dynamic would involve lots

896
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 3: of communication about what both parties want, what the boundaries are,

897
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 3: and as far as like renegotiating or checking in like

898
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 3: you know, because say you agree to something at the beginning.

899
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 3: How often is like a healthy amount of checking in?

900
00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 4: Would you say.

901
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: Whenever you need to?

902
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 4: Hmmmm hmm.

903
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: I think that's key too, because let's say let's say

904
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: you and I are having a scene tonight and like

905
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: we were like, okay, here's what we talked about doing,

906
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: here's what I'm okay with, and in that very moment,

907
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: in an instant, something shifts from me. I should be

908
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: able to check in and renegotiate in that instant, right,

909
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: and not wait until the end after I'm feeling like

910
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: shitty and dissociated.

911
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 3: Right, That's an important point in general. It's separate from kink.

912
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 3: I think like, we actually haven't talked that much about

913
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 3: consent on this podcast yet, which we should.

914
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think there's there's been a bit.

915
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 3: Of a cultural shift, but generally, like affirmative consent, it's

916
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: certainly not something I grew up aware of. It's certainly

917
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 3: not something that in my first like thirty something sexual

918
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 3: encounters existed.

919
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 4: I remember the first.

920
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 3: Time someone didn't try to pressure me to have sex

921
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 3: after I told him that I didn't want to have sex.

922
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 3: My mind was blown. I was like, what, what's the

923
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 3: what's the goal? Like, what are you getting at here?

924
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 4: Yeah? I didn't.

925
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 3: I didn't believe him, and I was like, well into

926
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 3: my twenties when that happened. So generally, like as a culture,

927
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 3: I wish that we could just talk about that more.

928
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 3: And I'm really happy about shows like, oh shit, what's

929
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 3: the one with the very cute Irish couple?

930
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 4: Do you guys want to talking about?

931
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 5: Oh god, it's on Netflix.

932
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought it was on Hulu.

933
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 5: Everybody was obsessed with it during quarantine.

934
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like a very sexy show.

935
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: Oh god, I can't think of it, but it sounds good.

936
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 3: I'm gonna google it because I want to be able

937
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 3: to shout it out. Irish couple series, Hot, Irish Hot,

938
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 3: Irish couple.

939
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 4: Normal People, that's what it's called, normal, Normal people.

940
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

941
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: I think shows like Normal People are doing a great

942
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 3: job because there are so many scenes in that show

943
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: where he's like is this okay?

944
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 4: And it's sexy and it's.

945
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: Not like weird people think it's gonna ruin the moment,

946
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 3: like they're asking each other if it's okay, they're checking it,

947
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 3: they're getting affirmative consent versus not getting a no, and

948
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 3: I think so many of us grew up with like, well,

949
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 3: she didn't say no, therefore I'm all good, Like even

950
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 3: if she's frozen and her body language is stiff, like

951
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: she's not saying no, therefore I should just keep going.

952
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 3: I want there to just generally be more cultural awareness

953
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 3: about this, and I really do appreciate media taking strides

954
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: toward making that more normalized, normal peopleized.

955
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: I get it, though. I mean I think if someone

956
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: was asking me every five seconds is this okay? Is

957
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: this okay? Like that would probably bring me out of

958
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: the mood. So, I mean, look, I do think people

959
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: think that consent check ins ruin the mood and you know,

960
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: can't be sexy, so I wouldn't. I would invite folks

961
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: listening to see if they can find and be creative

962
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: about sexy ways to ask for consent and to respond

963
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: to consent. Yeah, So like, you know, instead of being like, hey,

964
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: are you okay? Do you want to have sex or

965
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: do you want to have intercourse? Whatever you can say,

966
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: I want you to beg me when you want me

967
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: to put my cock in you.

968
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 5: That would be better, you know.

969
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: And it's also knowing that the person is like not

970
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: frozen and verbal enough to say like I want your

971
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: cock in me now, or like put my hand on

972
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: your pussy when you want me to put my fingers

973
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: inside you. Like I think there's lots of fun, creative

974
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: ways where we can get consent. And then, like I

975
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: said with the kink idea one, it's just checking in

976
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 1: saying like what's your color?

977
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 4: I love that? I love that.

978
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: And if you're playing in a kink way where you

979
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 1: can't speak, whether that's because you're like really enjoying yourself

980
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: or you're kind of feeling high in your head from

981
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: the excitement of it all, or you're bound and gagged

982
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: in some way or have something stuck in your mouth,

983
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: then come up with an alternative like hold on to

984
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, some item that feels comfortable for you,

985
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: and if you need to pause or stop and make

986
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: sure your partner can see it, then you drop it

987
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:00,919
Speaker 1: let go. M hmm.

988
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 4: That's great. Those are great, all great ideas.

989
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, I feel like I've learned so much

990
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,479
Speaker 5: from you. When you say like sex ed could help

991
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 5: in this realm, is the conversation that we're missing in

992
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 5: sex AD really just consent and there could be things

993
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 5: that come up that might be different and you just

994
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 5: need to really talk to the person.

995
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 1: I mean, shit, that could be like a whole episode.

996
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: I feel like it's missing in so many things. So yeah,

997
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: consent is one pleasure is another comfortability and talking about

998
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: what you want and how you want it and giving

999
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: yourself the permission for that. Being able to take the

1000
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: time to get to know yourself and your own self

1001
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: pleasure so you know what you like and what you

1002
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: don't like. I feel like all of that would make

1003
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: a huge difference in being able to navigate some of

1004
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: this and then just like permission and examples of different

1005
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: ways that people express their sexuality. So I'm not saying,

1006
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: like give domination lessons to fifth graders, but maybe just

1007
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: talking finding an age appropriate way to talk about diverse

1008
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: ways that people express themselves and the permission for that,

1009
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: so it's not just some hidden thing that you do

1010
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: when you're drunk, Like I know, that would be another

1011
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: red flag and a lot of Army Hammer's messages that

1012
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: were out there, he was like, sorry, I'm drunk, and like,

1013
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: while being real, like, there are definitely people who go

1014
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: to kink parties where they engage in substances technically you

1015
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: can't consent and like quote unquote shouldn't be doing it

1016
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: if you're like not in your grounded mind.

1017
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, you're saying mind. It's part of the.

1018
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the safe saying or risk aware consensual. So there's

1019
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: a lot of things, but look, it's never too late

1020
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: to get that education. There's some wonderful classes happening virtually now.

1021
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: Mistress Justine Kross is a colleague of mine who I've

1022
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 1: had on the podcast. She has classes all the time

1023
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,399
Speaker 1: about like kink and BDSM one oh one, and there's

1024
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: so many folks that do that, so you know, it's

1025
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: never too late to learn love that. Okay.

1026
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 3: So I have two questions that come from friends and

1027
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 3: one text thread with some gals. They were trying to

1028
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 3: understand when it comes to the cannibalism kink. We were

1029
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,479
Speaker 3: talking about if your kink involves inflicting violence or having

1030
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 3: violence inflicted on yourself because like bone crushing with something

1031
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 3: that I think came up in some of the Army

1032
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 3: Hammer messages and he was saying your broken body with

1033
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,959
Speaker 3: all your bones broken and blood play cooking a piece

1034
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 3: of your flesh. So when it comes to stuff like that,

1035
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 3: that is like technically harms somebody's body, is it okay?

1036
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 3: Like how much harm to your personhood is okay? If

1037
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,720
Speaker 3: that's what you want? Like, can somebody consent to being eaten?

1038
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 1: You know? That's a tricky one because I don't think

1039
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: I can decide that for another person. I think if

1040
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: someone's really wanting to get into like that intense kind

1041
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 1: of play, mm hmm, yeah, would I would want them

1042
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 1: to have support, some community and you know, be able

1043
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: to be as risk aware as possible of like what

1044
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: that looks like. I also think, like I know, with

1045
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 1: the Army Hammer things specifically, a lot of people are saying, oh, well,

1046
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: he said that, so that means he really wanted to

1047
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: do it. And I don't know Army Hammer, you know, personally,

1048
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: so I can't say for him. But I can say

1049
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: that a lot of people have fantasies that they don't

1050
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 1: necessarily want to engage in in real life, right, And

1051
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: so I think it's can be a great fantasy outlet

1052
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 1: to like talk about that taboo forbidden stuff, and that

1053
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're going to do it or want to

1054
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: engage in it, right, But I don't think it's for

1055
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: me to decide for other people, but also I want

1056
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: to I want to say really quick, I think that

1057
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 1: like I'm one therapist and I'm one person who engages

1058
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: in some of this myself, and so you might get

1059
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: different answers, you know, from different folks that you talk to,

1060
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: based on their own experiences, their own triggers. Yeah, their

1061
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: own stuff that's happened to them. So just like like

1062
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: we're urging folks to not just listen to that one person.

1063
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: I want you to listen to this episode, but I

1064
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 1: would say, don't just listen to me, Like, go do

1065
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 1: some more digging on this. If this is stuff that

1066
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: you're curious about.

1067
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 4: Right, that's great advice.

1068
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:20,800
Speaker 3: The other question was I'm directly quoting this text because

1069
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 3: this was a hilarious text, and she said I could

1070
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 3: direct quote it, Okay.

1071
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 4: She said, I.

1072
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 3: Really want to know about when you get really into

1073
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 3: something and then it keeps escalating to more extreme and

1074
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 3: how to prevent that with BDSM, Like it starts with

1075
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 3: handcuffs and it ends with hanging yourself while beating your meat.

1076
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: Wow, Dan, Well, interestingly, they said hanging yourself, so it's

1077
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: kind of like they were their only biometer, like they

1078
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: kept it going. Yeah, it was like someone else doing it.

1079
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 1: But in general, the question I'm hearing is like if

1080
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: you want it to stop? Or when do you know

1081
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:56,439
Speaker 1: if it's going too far?

1082
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds like she's talking about compulsively, like

1083
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 3: because your tolerance is building, like how your porn gets

1084
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 3: more extreme when you get more into porn. Maybe is

1085
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 3: that am I interpreting interpreting that correctly?

1086
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it can. It can sometimes

1087
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 1: be a misnomer because to me, that might just be

1088
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: like your shame is lifting, you know. So I think

1089
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: it's I mean, I only think it's really potentially problematic

1090
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: if it's like, if you're doing risky stuff in secret

1091
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: without knowing the potential precautions, you could die, right, you know,

1092
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: and really hurt yourself, right, And so I think as

1093
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: long as you're engaging in some risk aware stuff and

1094
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: you have some safety measures, I'm into what I guess

1095
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: what I would call edgeplay, which is like pushing the

1096
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: edge of what you're comfortable with, but not in an

1097
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: abusive way, just in like, oh, this is something that

1098
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,240
Speaker 1: does make me feel a little uncomfortable, and I'm interested

1099
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: to see more of what that looks like. And so

1100
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: to me, Like I said, if it's risk aware and

1101
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: consensual and it's not getting in the way of your

1102
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: life or impacting your realfe relationships, and I think it's great.

1103
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,959
Speaker 1: You know, if this person who's continually escalating stuff has

1104
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: a partner that is doing that with them and they're

1105
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: feeling good about it and not ashamed and being risk aware,

1106
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: like who cares?

1107
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 4: Right, right, go have it?

1108
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is so so endlessly fascinating. Thank you so.

1109
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: Much, so much, Thanks so much for having me.

1110
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 3: Oh my god, so informative. Okay, Megan, yes, tell me.

1111
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 3: So would you get involved with a man like Armie Hammer?

1112
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, Okay, let me think about that. I

1113
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 5: think certainly in my past I would have gotten possibly

1114
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 5: caught up in that. That was a really bad answer.

1115
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 4: Do you think you would be?

1116
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously now you're in a happy relationship, right,

1117
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 3: but do you think that Actually it is an interesting

1118
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 3: question because we sort of have talked about a celebrity

1119
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 3: who you really admired on a much earlier episode, who

1120
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 3: you said had built a cult life for himself, and

1121
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 3: you said you did not want to keep pursuing.

1122
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,879
Speaker 5: Thanks for true. You're right, Yeah, I do I think

1123
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 5: I've aged out of it.

1124
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 3: Who knows they're They're exactly very manipulative people who start

1125
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 3: very slow. And that's the whole thing about them is

1126
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 3: that they do it gradually.

1127
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're never.

1128
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 5: Seeing I'm never immune. That is so true. Yeah, well,

1129
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 5: I mean, enjoy your sex life. Go take some risks

1130
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 5: tonight in the bedroom.

1131
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 4: Some well thought out risks. Go fucking take those.

1132
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 3: Risks, think things through, get tied up, fucking leave the

1133
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 3: toilet seat up.

1134
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 4: You do you man, We're here for it.

1135
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 5: Let us know what you do too. Go on Instagram

1136
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 5: and dm us. No, I do know what what am

1137
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 5: I asking for?

1138
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 3: Holy moly, you're asking to get the dirtiest dms.

1139
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 5: We do not want that, okay, Lola.

1140
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 3: But if somebody does feel empowered to explore their cank,

1141
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 3: I do.

1142
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 4: Want to know that. Yeah, great, exactly, just maybe don't

1143
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 4: go into detail.

1144
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 5: O get cool? Okay, you got. I think we can

1145
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 5: all agree. This was one fantastic episode and outro.

1146
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 3: You can listen to Nicoletta Heideger's podcast Sluts and Scholars

1147
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find me

1148
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 3: Lola on Instagram at ul Lola O h L A

1149
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 3: l O l A and Twitter.

1150
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 4: I'm O lo lola O.

1151
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 5: H l A l O l A. And you can

1152
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 5: find me on Instagram at vibehire Bitch, and.

1153
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 4: You can find us on our website, trust mepod dot com.

1154
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 5: Remember to follow your gut, watch out for red, and

1155
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 5: never never trust me.

1156
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: Bye,