WEBVTT - Is There Such a Thing as “Authentic” Food? 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.920 You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:24.120 and iHeartRadio. Guess what will? 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:24.880 What's that? Mango? 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.520 So I'm going to kick this off with something pretty scandalous. 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.479 So get out your Victorian hand fans and your fainting 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.440 couches because this is going to blow you away. 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:35.920 Wow. 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.840 If anybody's ever been guilty of over selling something mango, 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.479 I think that might be you right now. But anyway, 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:42.760 what is the fact? 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.640 Well, let me start off with a question, what is 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.919 the most popular Australian restaurant in America? 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.479 That's a good question. The only one I can think 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:53.279 of maybe Outback exactly? 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.279 And did you know that Outback Steakhouse restaurant chain is 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.160 not even remotely Australian. 0:00:59.160 --> 0:00:59.560 Shocking. 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.720 So I don't know about you, but this really shook 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.800 my world. Uh, lumin onions and mozzarella boomerangs are not 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:08.919 authentic Aussy cuisine. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.360 An I guess I should cancel my trip because I 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:13.560 was looking forward to some of those mozzarella boomerangs. 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.840 But anyway, so if it's not from Australia, where's. 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:17.920 It from Tampa? 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.040 Okay? All right, that's close. 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:24.120 The chain was founded back in nineteen eighty eight, during 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.320 the height of the Crocodile Dundee craze, and in fact, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:29.640 none of the four people who found it out back 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.640 had ever been to Australia when they launched the chain. 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.400 That's actually pretty funny though, right. 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.680 I Mean, what's even crazier is that they actually made 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:38.920 it a point not to visit so that they wouldn't 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.720 be tempted to incorporate actual Australian cuisine into their vision. 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.120 They wanted their Aussi theme to remain just as cartoonish 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.720 and surface level as the movie that inspired it. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:51.440 I mean, it does kind of break my heart that 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.160 Australians haven't really experienced the wonder of the bloomin onion mango. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.800 I know, but today's episode is all about food authenticity. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.800 We're going to deal with really tricky questions like what 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.920 does it mean to serve authentic cuisine? Who decides what's 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:09.120 authentic or not? And is it possible to fabricate authenticity? 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:10.560 You know, this one turned out to be a pretty 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:12.480 crazy topic, so I'm excited to talk about it. 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:13.040 Let's dive in. 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.360 Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:38.560 Will Pearson and as always, I'm joined by my good 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.760 friend Mangesh hot ticketter and on the other side of 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.360 that soundproof glasses helping himself to a veggie corn dog 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.400 and a fresh batch of deep fried Oreos. That's our 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:49.400 friend and producer Dylan Fagan. 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.320 It kind of feels like either he switched to a 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.240 really unhealthy diet for some reason, or like he's running 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.560 for some sort of office, Like that's the type of 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:00.440 thing that politicians eat when they're try to get the 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:00.880 vote out. 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:03.919 Don't know if he's campaigning for anything right now, but 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:08.160 Dylan is one hundred percent authentically Dylan twenty four to seven, 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:09.640 so he's got my vote. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:11.480 But you make a good point here. 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:15.040 So today we're talking about authenticity and food and that 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.600 definitely plays a role in politics. Like you probably saw 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.040 some of the mayoral race in New York City. The 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.440 new mayors are on mom. Donnie made a real point 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.799 of declaring his authenticity by showing up at local bodegas 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.720 ordering egg and cheese and celebrating ethnic food from Queens. 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.000 Yeah, I mean, I kind of love that he was 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.080 out promoting places like kebab King on the campaign trail 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.120 rather than just like another pizza place, which you know, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.000 you know, I mean, I love pizza. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:41.320 I do know that you love pizza. 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.520 But it's fun to see all this time. Yeah. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.040 But and it makes sense, right, like performative eating and 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.760 also things like downing fried food at state fairs in 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.200 front of crowds. It's actually tried and true campaign tactic, 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.720 and it's been common practice for at least a century 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:55.280 at this point. 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.080 Yeah, And I guess it's because these politicians are showing 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.480 their real people and kind of to earth. 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:01.480 That's exactly right. 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.200 And you know it's a play to show how authentic 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.040 and down to earth they really are. 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:06.400 So just to run through the. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.000 Presidential timeline a little bit, President Franklin Roosevelt ate a 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.080 hot dog for a photo op while sitting in his 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.119 convertible at a campaign stop back in nineteen thirty two. 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:17.839 Eisenhower drank a bottle of coke at a rally to 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.200 kick off his nineteen fifty six reelection campaign, and in 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:25.240 a rare case of bipartisan pandering, both Ronald Reagan and 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.280 Bill Clinton chowed down on Big Max during their respective 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:30.400 runs for president. It's funny I can remember both of 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:34.360 those so vividly as a kid, right, I mean more. 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.240 Than the actual incident of Phil Clinton being Adam McDonald's. 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.720 I remember Phil Hartman playing Bill Clinton, like wandering into 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.280 McDonald's to eat after a jog, but he's only been 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:44.880 jogging for like. 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.280 Three people, Yeah, and then straight into the McDonald's sty. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.800 You're right, I actually remember that probably just as well. Anyway, 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.480 that's just a small sampling of the many winning candidates 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.840 who've eaten in public over the years, and all is 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:57.520 a way to appeal to their voters. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.599 I'm always so confused though, Right, why does eating a 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.560 deep fried oreo make a candidate seem more authentic? 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:04.800 Like? 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.560 It feels so obvious. It is such a pr stunt. 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:09.520 Yeah, I mean it is. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.400 And these types of eating displays are hyper managed events 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.720 that are scouted and planned well in advance by campaign teams, 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.120 and most of the people in attendance actually understand that 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.840 at least at some level. But luckily for the candidates, 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.159 the goal isn't really to convince the public that you're 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.040 just a regular Joe eating a corn dog like Dylanova there, 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:27.280 who's definitely not a regular Joe. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:28.520 And i't mean to suggest. 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:29.520 That, no, no, not at all. 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.000 But the real aim is to show that a candidate 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.280 understands what's important to a community. 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:35.159 So that's why. 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.000 Campaigns these days tend to avoid chain restaurants and tend 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.880 to go to these independent diners and food stands and 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.120 stuff like that, Like they want to leverage the sense 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.280 of shared history and community that places like that evoke 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:46.839 in people. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.760 So like the eating is almost this symbolic gesture. 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.080 That's exactly right, So it communicates a kind of cultural 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.440 understanding or fluency, which you can really make a candidate 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.080 seem more authentic to the voters, even though the situation 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.800 surrounding it is completely and authentic. But the word authentic 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.359 is going to come up a lot today, so we 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:05.120 should probably just. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:06.600 Nail down a meaning for it. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.960 Unfortunately, in the context of food, the word authentic can 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.120 actually mean different things to different people. The most common 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.960 meaning is that authentic food is somehow representative of a 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.880 specific category, like a region or an ethnicity. 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.000 So like authentic New York pizza, or like authentic Mexican 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:24.880 food is like a way that we use this. 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:25.800 That's exactly right. 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:27.599 And this type of usage can get a little dicey 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.279 since it's used primarily in regard to quote unquote ethnic cuisine, 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.679 and it raises the question of who gets to decide 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.839 what is or isn't authentic, like the people preparing the 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.040 food or the people eating it. It's like mango when 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:40.919 we would go to Indian restaurants in college, and I 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.320 was always like, but first, mango, is this authentic? 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:43.680 Right? 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:44.800 I don't get you to tell me. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.919 Yeah. Now, this whole thing makes me think of the 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.280 study I read where a sociologist his name is Stephen Christ, 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.880 actually went to fifty four Mexican restaurants across the country 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.000 and he interviewed the employees. What he learned was that 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.880 many of the restaurants that were touted for their authenticity, 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.039 we're actually serving watered down recipes because that's what the 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.440 locals wanted. Now, in most cases, I'd say that's just 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.040 good business, right, like you want to meet people where 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.000 they are. But the subtext of this study is that 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.960 Mexican chefs were being compelled to change their family recipes 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.480 and they'd have to substitute these traditional ingredients all to 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.679 appeal to the local tastes. So the way Stephen Christ 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.400 puts it is that quote a restaurant is only as 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.880 authentic as profits will allow, which is kind of an 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.680 interesting take, right, And it plays into how loaded the 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.200 word authenticity is. Like these restaurants wind up chasing someone 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.679 else's idea of authenticity just to stay in business. 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.440 Yeah, I can imagine that's always a challenge. And speaking 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.480 of profits, that brings us to the second meaning of 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.080 authenticity in the food industry. So this is the kind 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.880 of authenticity that's derived from values or beliefs, So things 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.920 like sustainability or locally sourced ingredients, or like cage and 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.440 cruelty free meat stuff like that. 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.680 So kind of authentically whole foods is what you're saying. 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.400 I mean, values based authenticity is the kind that people 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:04.800 are willing to pay a higher price for. 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.600 So one kind of authenticity brings in more money than 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:07.880 the other. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.160 I mean, that's what's interesting here, right. So when it 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.880 comes to categorical authenticity, studies show that the value comes 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.560 in the form of better reviews, which typically gives the 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.160 business to boost. But the flip side is that most 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:21.360 customers won't be willing to pay more for that brand 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.320 of authenticity. So, for example, a dive joint known for 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.400 its authentic Philly cheese steaks is going to have great 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.160 word of mouth, but all the customers who flock there 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:32.840 will expect to pay these dive joint prices no matter 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.440 how authentic it is. But that's actually not the case 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.080 for the other kind of authenticity. In fact, the situation 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:42.160 is just the opposite. Values based authenticity fosters this willingness 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.480 to pay more for a meal, but most customers won't 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.360 rate a restaurant higher just for that. 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.360 I mean, the Philly cheese steak example is a good 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:55.599 one because often they're using cheese whiz for it. 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:57.920 I do like some cheese whiz though, Maga, I'm not 0:08:57.920 --> 0:08:58.360 gonna lie. 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.880 I do wonder if the high prices make people stingier 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:02.000 with their ratings, though. 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:04.160 I mean, that could certainly be a factor. 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.360 But the curious thing is why authentic food of all 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.439 types doesn't drive prices up. Like the term is being 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.440 used positively in both cases, So why aren't people willing 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.079 to pay more for it across the board? 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.760 Yeah, I imagine the values based kind is more of 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.560 a personal thing for people like you know that the 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:24.160 food's almost an expression of the restaurant's values, and because 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.960 the customers are choosing to eat there, it's an expression 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.200 of their values right right, and a lot of people 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.120 are willing to pay a higher price for that sort 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.280 of connection versus you know, you might want authentic Chinese food, 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.679 but really you're just looking for Chinese food that's tasty, 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.080 and it's less important to you to know just how 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.080 authentically Chinese it is. But I read an interview with 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.400 a professor at NYU. His name is Crishend Durey, and 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.600 he's author a great book called The Ethnic Restaurant Tour. 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.840 He says that there's a feeling that quote, if the 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:56.719 food is expensive, then it can't possibly be authentic. And 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.360 the reality that comes from that thinking is that a 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.400 lot of us are unwilling to pay more for ethnic quizisine. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.800 And Ray describes this as almost a form of ethnic 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:10.079 hierarchy that we communicate subconsciously, and this actually plays out 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:11.200 in things like Yelp. 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:12.400 Previews, Oh so, how do you mean? 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.079 Well? Based on a twenty nineteen study, Yelp reviewers talk 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.640 about authenticity the most when describing food from recent and 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.080 low income immigrant groups, and the details mentioned in those 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.360 reviews tend to be very different from the ones in 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.840 reviews of more affluent ethnic groups. Right, So, for example, 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.840 the reviews for non European restaurants connected the term authentic 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.000 with cheaper and less positive attributes, so things like dirt 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.280 floors plastic stools. Meanwhile, the reviews for European and Japanese 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.079 cuisines is associated the word authentic with positive descriptions of 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:50.079 the ambiance, right like handsome French waiters and classic Japanese touches, all. 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:51.640 Right, which is definitely a double standard. 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.840 Yeah, And according to Sarah Kay, who is the nutrition 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.320 educator behind that Yelp study, the trend shows that quote 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.240 when we use this word authentic, we're using it to 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.040 refer to migrant groups that were less familiar with and 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.960 our expectations are potentially less founded in our actual experiences 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:12.640 and more founded in stereotypes or false perceptions. But it's 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:14.880 also interesting how these things change over time, right like 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.840 Italian food in America used to be considered ethnic cuisine, 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.440 and things like fusion foods are a great reminder of 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.360 how cyclical food trends can be. If you think about, 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.079 like ten or fifteen years ago, people were all about 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.679 experimental cuisine, and weirdly, I read this great piece at 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.160 Eater about how this one writer actually saw Taco bell 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.720 as fusion. Like he saw it as this kind of 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:39.680 ethnic Mexican American hybrid that introduced people to Mexican food, 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.439 and it was almost like the starter cuisine for the 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.760 next generations looking to eat more authentic and eventually higher 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:48.040 priced Mexican foods. 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.640 I mean, as you know, I love some Taco Bell 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.160 but I've never fooled myself into thinking that it was 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.000 supposed to be like any sort of fusion of anything 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.280 other than just like delicious, cheesy mush. 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.800 But anyway, that is interesting to hear that take. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.520 I mean, honestly, that's what I thought too. And I 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.480 read this piece and it's fascinating because the guy's mom 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.360 was Mexican, his dad was American, and for her, she 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:13.400 actually liked Taco Bell because it was this idea in 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.840 Texas that her cuisine could be palatable to like a 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.880 lot of white Americans and it was available for everyone. 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.880 And you know, he also makes his argument that that's 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.680 why the best taco in America comes from Taco Bell. 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.840 Well that's an argument I won't disagree with, but I'm 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:33.640 not going to get out there and promote that. 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.480 But anyway, well, now we've talked a little bit about 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.439 food authenticity and the complications with it. Why don't we 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.400 get into some really fun real world examples right after 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:59.800 this quick break. You're listening to part Time Genius and 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.400 we're talking about the restaurant industries enduring quest for authenticity. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.800 All right, mengo, So we've covered authentic food and authentic values. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.040 So what's next on the list? 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.040 So this one is a little harder to define, and 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.040 I guess we could call it authentic place making. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:14.959 Place making? 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.880 So like you mean like a theme restaurant or like 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.079 little fake countries at Epcot or what do you mean 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:19.400 by that? 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.720 Yeah, exactly, except not inside a theme park and not 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.000 limited to Central Florida. So the best example I can 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.600 think of are Irish pubs, and it is no surprise 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.520 to find one in a place like Boston. But did 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.599 you know that there's also an Irish pub in Phoenix, Arizona, 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.480 and Calcutta and Iraq? 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.440 So I am curious, like how this happens? 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.560 Is there like one Irish out there just setting up 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.400 pubs all over the place, or how does this work? 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.600 Yeah? Kind of. It turns out there really is a 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.800 company that specializes in building Irish pubs around the world. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:58.000 It's appropriately enough called the Irish Pub Company, so you 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.440 probably know what it stands for. It was started by 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.400 a Dublin architect. His name is Mel McNally and this 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.520 was back in nineteen ninety. Now. McNally had witnessed this 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.040 huge boom of tourism at the time and he suspected 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.760 that it would spark a demand for Irish style bars 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.680 in the tourists home countries. And it turns out he 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.080 was right because over the years, the company has helped 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.680 more than two thousand Irish pubs open throughout Europe. And 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.800 they didn't actually stop there. The company has since expanded 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.560 its service in to fifty three additional countries, everywhere from 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:34.400 Canada to Mongolia to Marin County. But McNally actually isn't 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.400 alone in this because Guinness has actually been the Pub 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.200 Company's partner since the start. 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.560 So what do they do exactly, Because it doesn't sound 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:43.680 like from what you're saying that they're actually operating these 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:44.280 bars right. 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.920 No, the bars are all independently owned and operated, and 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.080 Guinness and the Irish Pub Companies serve mostly as designers 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.600 and also consultants. So basically a bar owner will contact 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.320 them and that's when they're like looking to open an 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.160 Irish style pub and McNally and his team worked with 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.040 them to design the interior based on each location, and 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.440 then once the design is settled, the company builds the 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.720 bar tops and all the furniture, and this happens in 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.160 Ireland and then shifts it over to the site of 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:11.840 the latest pub. 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:13.600 So I imagine they are all kind of variations on 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.280 the same theme, right I'm picturing lots of dark wood paneling. 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.640 You got to have a frame photo of James Joyce 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:19.880 on the wall stuff like that. 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.360 Yeah, of course, and Guinness is always always on tap. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.960 But to be fair, the clients do have more design 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.320 choices than I certainly expected, right, Like, So McNally and 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.400 his team actually offer four different bar styles to build 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.880 off of. They've got the country cottage, their brewery pub, 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.040 the Victorian pub and the Gaelic pub, and the design 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.520 elements for each of these vary pretty widely, but in 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.240 each case all of the corresponding to core is supplied 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.680 by the company, So it's everything from the furniture to 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.800 the lighting to essentially all the chochkeys on the wall. 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:53.920 And so what's the thinking there, like is this approach 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.440 supposed to make these pubs more authentic or what. 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.720 Yeah. McNally says that authentic design, and authentic Irish food 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.280 and authentic Irish beverages are all key ingredients for a 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.840 successful Irish pub. He never really defines those terms, so 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.680 you're not getting like bloomin Irish onions. But the process 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.320 this company follows gives us an idea of what he means. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:16.360 You meant the fact that all these pubs are being 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.680 designed and like pre built in Ireland. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.760 Yeah, I mean that's a big part of it. Also, 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.640 all the materials in decor is sourced from Ireland and 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.640 based on the structural elements of like popular bars in Dublin. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.200 So there's actually kind of a lot to back up 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.680 the claim that these are quote unquote authentic Irish pubs. 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:35.040 I mean, I guess you're right. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.280 And don't get me wrong, it's fascinating that there's a 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.480 company responsible for giving all these Irish pubs the same feel. 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.200 It just it just seems like such a corporate process 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.040 that I can't help but think of it as somehow inauthentic. 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.600 Well I wasn't going to mention this, but it isn't 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.080 just one company doing this. Others have actually gotten into 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.760 the pub making act over the years, including a company 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.400 called Old Irish Pubs Limited and Love Irish Pubs. So 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.280 it is a competitive market. 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.280 I love it. They are just all on the nose 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:01.920 with they're naming. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.800 Yeah, and that's exactly what people want, you know. Some 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.720 people argue that if you go to the Italy Pavilion 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.800 at Epcot, you know, you wouldn't say you've had an 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.560 authentic Italian experience. But there is something to be said 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:19.080 for like curating an environment that feels immersive or transportive 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:21.600 and you can evoke a feeling similar to that of 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.600 the real place, and sometimes that's a positive experience that 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.520 you know, can prompt people to seek out the authentic 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:28.680 version for themselves. 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:29.200 Yeah. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.159 Like I guess if somebody falls in love with the 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.560 Irish pub and Phoenix, they may decide to take a 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:34.359 trip over to Ireland. 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.240 Yeah. And it's just like we were saying, Taco bell 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.159 can be a gateway food to more traditional Mexican food. 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.360 But exactly if the manufacturer, big business version can bring 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.440 so much happiness, I'm sure people feel like they're just 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:47.919 getting a taste of it. They'd love to be a 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.240 place where this is happening more regularly. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.840 I can't stop thinking about Taco Bell now Mango. This 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.359 is a real problem. I'll take your word for it. 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.320 Let's go back to the spirit of placemaking, because there's 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.040 a quote I wanted to share from the interview McNally 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.520 did for Men's Journal. He's talking about how the Irish 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.000 pub concept is more than just a money making scheme 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.879 aimed at tourists, and as he puts it, quote, people 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.840 engage with the sense of community, friendship, and conviviality that 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.280 they find in an authentic Irish pub. In that sense, 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.320 pubs are an important connection from Ireland and its people 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.919 to the rest of the world, and for the irishmen 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.840 and women living abroad, the pubs are gathering venues which 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.800 allow them to feel home. It's a portal to Ireland. 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:30.520 Yeah, I mean, I can see what he means. 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.719 It's interesting, like the more we talk about all this, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.200 the more I can see how that connection between food 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.600 and authenticity might mean different things to different people, like 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.720 a sense of home or comfort, a feeling of adventure, 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.639 a taste of the exotic, or like a display of 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.119 common values. But there's always more to it than just 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:48.840 simply having a meal of course. 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.240 Yeah, it's starting to make more sense why voters like 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.440 seeing politicians eat comfort food, right, Like, it's a play 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.320 to emotions more than reason. But if anything, that only 0:18:58.400 --> 0:18:59.400 makes it more effective. 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:00.000 Yeah. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:01.359 All right, well now we've got a bit more to 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.320