Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Guess what will?
Speaker 2: What's that? Mango?
Speaker 1: So I'm going to kick this off with something pretty scandalous.
Speaker 1: So get out your Victorian hand fans and your fainting
Speaker 1: couches because this is going to blow you away.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: If anybody's ever been guilty of over selling something mango,
Speaker 3: I think that might be you right now. But anyway,
Speaker 3: what is the fact?
Speaker 1: Well, let me start off with a question, what is
Speaker 1: the most popular Australian restaurant in America?
Speaker 3: That's a good question. The only one I can think
Speaker 3: of maybe Outback exactly?
Speaker 1: And did you know that Outback Steakhouse restaurant chain is
Speaker 1: not even remotely Australian.
Speaker 2: Shocking.
Speaker 1: So I don't know about you, but this really shook
Speaker 1: my world. Uh, lumin onions and mozzarella boomerangs are not
Speaker 1: authentic Aussy cuisine.
Speaker 3: An I guess I should cancel my trip because I
Speaker 3: was looking forward to some of those mozzarella boomerangs.
Speaker 2: But anyway, so if it's not from Australia, where's.
Speaker 1: It from Tampa?
Speaker 2: Okay? All right, that's close.
Speaker 1: The chain was founded back in nineteen eighty eight, during
Speaker 1: the height of the Crocodile Dundee craze, and in fact,
Speaker 1: none of the four people who found it out back
Speaker 1: had ever been to Australia when they launched the chain.
Speaker 2: That's actually pretty funny though, right.
Speaker 1: I Mean, what's even crazier is that they actually made
Speaker 1: it a point not to visit so that they wouldn't
Speaker 1: be tempted to incorporate actual Australian cuisine into their vision.
Speaker 1: They wanted their Aussi theme to remain just as cartoonish
Speaker 1: and surface level as the movie that inspired it.
Speaker 3: I mean, it does kind of break my heart that
Speaker 3: Australians haven't really experienced the wonder of the bloomin onion mango.
Speaker 1: I know, but today's episode is all about food authenticity.
Speaker 1: We're going to deal with really tricky questions like what
Speaker 1: does it mean to serve authentic cuisine? Who decides what's
Speaker 1: authentic or not? And is it possible to fabricate authenticity?
Speaker 3: You know, this one turned out to be a pretty
Speaker 3: crazy topic, so I'm excited to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Let's dive in.
Speaker 3: Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Speaker 3: Will Pearson and as always, I'm joined by my good
Speaker 3: friend Mangesh hot ticketter and on the other side of
Speaker 3: that soundproof glasses helping himself to a veggie corn dog
Speaker 3: and a fresh batch of deep fried Oreos. That's our
Speaker 3: friend and producer Dylan Fagan.
Speaker 1: It kind of feels like either he switched to a
Speaker 1: really unhealthy diet for some reason, or like he's running
Speaker 1: for some sort of office, Like that's the type of
Speaker 1: thing that politicians eat when they're try to get the
Speaker 1: vote out.
Speaker 3: Don't know if he's campaigning for anything right now, but
Speaker 3: Dylan is one hundred percent authentically Dylan twenty four to seven,
Speaker 3: so he's got my vote.
Speaker 2: But you make a good point here.
Speaker 3: So today we're talking about authenticity and food and that
Speaker 3: definitely plays a role in politics. Like you probably saw
Speaker 3: some of the mayoral race in New York City. The
Speaker 3: new mayors are on mom. Donnie made a real point
Speaker 3: of declaring his authenticity by showing up at local bodegas
Speaker 3: ordering egg and cheese and celebrating ethnic food from Queens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I kind of love that he was
Speaker 1: out promoting places like kebab King on the campaign trail
Speaker 1: rather than just like another pizza place, which you know,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I love pizza.
Speaker 2: I do know that you love pizza.
Speaker 1: But it's fun to see all this time. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But and it makes sense, right, like performative eating and
Speaker 3: also things like downing fried food at state fairs in
Speaker 3: front of crowds. It's actually tried and true campaign tactic,
Speaker 3: and it's been common practice for at least a century
Speaker 3: at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess it's because these politicians are showing
Speaker 1: their real people and kind of to earth.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 3: And you know it's a play to show how authentic
Speaker 3: and down to earth they really are.
Speaker 2: So just to run through the.
Speaker 3: Presidential timeline a little bit, President Franklin Roosevelt ate a
Speaker 3: hot dog for a photo op while sitting in his
Speaker 3: convertible at a campaign stop back in nineteen thirty two.
Speaker 3: Eisenhower drank a bottle of coke at a rally to
Speaker 3: kick off his nineteen fifty six reelection campaign, and in
Speaker 3: a rare case of bipartisan pandering, both Ronald Reagan and
Speaker 3: Bill Clinton chowed down on Big Max during their respective
Speaker 3: runs for president. It's funny I can remember both of
Speaker 3: those so vividly as a kid, right, I mean more.
Speaker 1: Than the actual incident of Phil Clinton being Adam McDonald's.
Speaker 1: I remember Phil Hartman playing Bill Clinton, like wandering into
Speaker 1: McDonald's to eat after a jog, but he's only been
Speaker 1: jogging for like.
Speaker 3: Three people, Yeah, and then straight into the McDonald's sty.
Speaker 3: You're right, I actually remember that probably just as well. Anyway,
Speaker 3: that's just a small sampling of the many winning candidates
Speaker 3: who've eaten in public over the years, and all is
Speaker 3: a way to appeal to their voters.
Speaker 1: I'm always so confused though, Right, why does eating a
Speaker 1: deep fried oreo make a candidate seem more authentic?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: It feels so obvious. It is such a pr stunt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is.
Speaker 3: And these types of eating displays are hyper managed events
Speaker 3: that are scouted and planned well in advance by campaign teams,
Speaker 3: and most of the people in attendance actually understand that
Speaker 3: at least at some level. But luckily for the candidates,
Speaker 3: the goal isn't really to convince the public that you're
Speaker 3: just a regular Joe eating a corn dog like Dylanova there,
Speaker 3: who's definitely not a regular Joe.
Speaker 2: And i't mean to suggest.
Speaker 1: That, no, no, not at all.
Speaker 3: But the real aim is to show that a candidate
Speaker 3: understands what's important to a community.
Speaker 2: So that's why.
Speaker 3: Campaigns these days tend to avoid chain restaurants and tend
Speaker 3: to go to these independent diners and food stands and
Speaker 3: stuff like that, Like they want to leverage the sense
Speaker 3: of shared history and community that places like that evoke
Speaker 3: in people.
Speaker 1: So like the eating is almost this symbolic gesture.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right, So it communicates a kind of cultural
Speaker 3: understanding or fluency, which you can really make a candidate
Speaker 3: seem more authentic to the voters, even though the situation
Speaker 3: surrounding it is completely and authentic. But the word authentic
Speaker 3: is going to come up a lot today, so we
Speaker 3: should probably just.
Speaker 2: Nail down a meaning for it.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, in the context of food, the word authentic can
Speaker 3: actually mean different things to different people. The most common
Speaker 3: meaning is that authentic food is somehow representative of a
Speaker 3: specific category, like a region or an ethnicity.
Speaker 1: So like authentic New York pizza, or like authentic Mexican
Speaker 1: food is like a way that we use this.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 3: And this type of usage can get a little dicey
Speaker 3: since it's used primarily in regard to quote unquote ethnic cuisine,
Speaker 3: and it raises the question of who gets to decide
Speaker 3: what is or isn't authentic, like the people preparing the
Speaker 3: food or the people eating it. It's like mango when
Speaker 3: we would go to Indian restaurants in college, and I
Speaker 3: was always like, but first, mango, is this authentic?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: I don't get you to tell me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, this whole thing makes me think of the
Speaker 1: study I read where a sociologist his name is Stephen Christ,
Speaker 1: actually went to fifty four Mexican restaurants across the country
Speaker 1: and he interviewed the employees. What he learned was that
Speaker 1: many of the restaurants that were touted for their authenticity,
Speaker 1: we're actually serving watered down recipes because that's what the
Speaker 1: locals wanted. Now, in most cases, I'd say that's just
Speaker 1: good business, right, like you want to meet people where
Speaker 1: they are. But the subtext of this study is that
Speaker 1: Mexican chefs were being compelled to change their family recipes
Speaker 1: and they'd have to substitute these traditional ingredients all to
Speaker 1: appeal to the local tastes. So the way Stephen Christ
Speaker 1: puts it is that quote a restaurant is only as
Speaker 1: authentic as profits will allow, which is kind of an
Speaker 1: interesting take, right, And it plays into how loaded the
Speaker 1: word authenticity is. Like these restaurants wind up chasing someone
Speaker 1: else's idea of authenticity just to stay in business.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine that's always a challenge. And speaking
Speaker 3: of profits, that brings us to the second meaning of
Speaker 3: authenticity in the food industry. So this is the kind
Speaker 3: of authenticity that's derived from values or beliefs, So things
Speaker 3: like sustainability or locally sourced ingredients, or like cage and
Speaker 3: cruelty free meat stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So kind of authentically whole foods is what you're saying.
Speaker 3: I mean, values based authenticity is the kind that people
Speaker 3: are willing to pay a higher price for.
Speaker 1: So one kind of authenticity brings in more money than
Speaker 1: the other.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what's interesting here, right. So when it
Speaker 3: comes to categorical authenticity, studies show that the value comes
Speaker 3: in the form of better reviews, which typically gives the
Speaker 3: business to boost. But the flip side is that most
Speaker 3: customers won't be willing to pay more for that brand
Speaker 3: of authenticity. So, for example, a dive joint known for
Speaker 3: its authentic Philly cheese steaks is going to have great
Speaker 3: word of mouth, but all the customers who flock there
Speaker 3: will expect to pay these dive joint prices no matter
Speaker 3: how authentic it is. But that's actually not the case
Speaker 3: for the other kind of authenticity. In fact, the situation
Speaker 3: is just the opposite. Values based authenticity fosters this willingness
Speaker 3: to pay more for a meal, but most customers won't
Speaker 3: rate a restaurant higher just for that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the Philly cheese steak example is a good
Speaker 1: one because often they're using cheese whiz for it.
Speaker 2: I do like some cheese whiz though, Maga, I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna lie.
Speaker 1: I do wonder if the high prices make people stingier
Speaker 1: with their ratings, though.
Speaker 2: I mean, that could certainly be a factor.
Speaker 3: But the curious thing is why authentic food of all
Speaker 3: types doesn't drive prices up. Like the term is being
Speaker 3: used positively in both cases, So why aren't people willing
Speaker 3: to pay more for it across the board?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine the values based kind is more of
Speaker 1: a personal thing for people like you know that the
Speaker 1: food's almost an expression of the restaurant's values, and because
Speaker 1: the customers are choosing to eat there, it's an expression
Speaker 1: of their values right right, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: are willing to pay a higher price for that sort
Speaker 1: of connection versus you know, you might want authentic Chinese food,
Speaker 1: but really you're just looking for Chinese food that's tasty,
Speaker 1: and it's less important to you to know just how
Speaker 1: authentically Chinese it is. But I read an interview with
Speaker 1: a professor at NYU. His name is Crishend Durey, and
Speaker 1: he's author a great book called The Ethnic Restaurant Tour.
Speaker 1: He says that there's a feeling that quote, if the
Speaker 1: food is expensive, then it can't possibly be authentic. And
Speaker 1: the reality that comes from that thinking is that a
Speaker 1: lot of us are unwilling to pay more for ethnic quizisine.
Speaker 1: And Ray describes this as almost a form of ethnic
Speaker 1: hierarchy that we communicate subconsciously, and this actually plays out
Speaker 1: in things like Yelp.
Speaker 2: Previews, Oh so, how do you mean?
Speaker 1: Well? Based on a twenty nineteen study, Yelp reviewers talk
Speaker 1: about authenticity the most when describing food from recent and
Speaker 1: low income immigrant groups, and the details mentioned in those
Speaker 1: reviews tend to be very different from the ones in
Speaker 1: reviews of more affluent ethnic groups. Right, So, for example,
Speaker 1: the reviews for non European restaurants connected the term authentic
Speaker 1: with cheaper and less positive attributes, so things like dirt
Speaker 1: floors plastic stools. Meanwhile, the reviews for European and Japanese
Speaker 1: cuisines is associated the word authentic with positive descriptions of
Speaker 1: the ambiance, right like handsome French waiters and classic Japanese touches, all.
Speaker 2: Right, which is definitely a double standard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And according to Sarah Kay, who is the nutrition
Speaker 1: educator behind that Yelp study, the trend shows that quote
Speaker 1: when we use this word authentic, we're using it to
Speaker 1: refer to migrant groups that were less familiar with and
Speaker 1: our expectations are potentially less founded in our actual experiences
Speaker 1: and more founded in stereotypes or false perceptions. But it's
Speaker 1: also interesting how these things change over time, right like
Speaker 1: Italian food in America used to be considered ethnic cuisine,
Speaker 1: and things like fusion foods are a great reminder of
Speaker 1: how cyclical food trends can be. If you think about,
Speaker 1: like ten or fifteen years ago, people were all about
Speaker 1: experimental cuisine, and weirdly, I read this great piece at
Speaker 1: Eater about how this one writer actually saw Taco bell
Speaker 1: as fusion. Like he saw it as this kind of
Speaker 1: ethnic Mexican American hybrid that introduced people to Mexican food,
Speaker 1: and it was almost like the starter cuisine for the
Speaker 1: next generations looking to eat more authentic and eventually higher
Speaker 1: priced Mexican foods.
Speaker 3: I mean, as you know, I love some Taco Bell
Speaker 3: but I've never fooled myself into thinking that it was
Speaker 3: supposed to be like any sort of fusion of anything
Speaker 3: other than just like delicious, cheesy mush.
Speaker 2: But anyway, that is interesting to hear that take.
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, that's what I thought too. And I
Speaker 1: read this piece and it's fascinating because the guy's mom
Speaker 1: was Mexican, his dad was American, and for her, she
Speaker 1: actually liked Taco Bell because it was this idea in
Speaker 1: Texas that her cuisine could be palatable to like a
Speaker 1: lot of white Americans and it was available for everyone.
Speaker 1: And you know, he also makes his argument that that's
Speaker 1: why the best taco in America comes from Taco Bell.
Speaker 2: Well that's an argument I won't disagree with, but I'm
Speaker 2: not going to get out there and promote that.
Speaker 3: But anyway, well, now we've talked a little bit about
Speaker 3: food authenticity and the complications with it. Why don't we
Speaker 3: get into some really fun real world examples right after
Speaker 3: this quick break. You're listening to part Time Genius and
Speaker 3: we're talking about the restaurant industries enduring quest for authenticity.
Speaker 3: All right, mengo, So we've covered authentic food and authentic values.
Speaker 2: So what's next on the list?
Speaker 1: So this one is a little harder to define, and
Speaker 1: I guess we could call it authentic place making.
Speaker 2: Place making?
Speaker 3: So like you mean like a theme restaurant or like
Speaker 3: little fake countries at Epcot or what do you mean
Speaker 3: by that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, except not inside a theme park and not
Speaker 1: limited to Central Florida. So the best example I can
Speaker 1: think of are Irish pubs, and it is no surprise
Speaker 1: to find one in a place like Boston. But did
Speaker 1: you know that there's also an Irish pub in Phoenix, Arizona,
Speaker 1: and Calcutta and Iraq?
Speaker 2: So I am curious, like how this happens?
Speaker 3: Is there like one Irish out there just setting up
Speaker 3: pubs all over the place, or how does this work?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Kind of. It turns out there really is a
Speaker 1: company that specializes in building Irish pubs around the world.
Speaker 1: It's appropriately enough called the Irish Pub Company, so you
Speaker 1: probably know what it stands for. It was started by
Speaker 1: a Dublin architect. His name is Mel McNally and this
Speaker 1: was back in nineteen ninety. Now. McNally had witnessed this
Speaker 1: huge boom of tourism at the time and he suspected
Speaker 1: that it would spark a demand for Irish style bars
Speaker 1: in the tourists home countries. And it turns out he
Speaker 1: was right because over the years, the company has helped
Speaker 1: more than two thousand Irish pubs open throughout Europe. And
Speaker 1: they didn't actually stop there. The company has since expanded
Speaker 1: its service in to fifty three additional countries, everywhere from
Speaker 1: Canada to Mongolia to Marin County. But McNally actually isn't
Speaker 1: alone in this because Guinness has actually been the Pub
Speaker 1: Company's partner since the start.
Speaker 3: So what do they do exactly, Because it doesn't sound
Speaker 3: like from what you're saying that they're actually operating these
Speaker 3: bars right.
Speaker 1: No, the bars are all independently owned and operated, and
Speaker 1: Guinness and the Irish Pub Companies serve mostly as designers
Speaker 1: and also consultants. So basically a bar owner will contact
Speaker 1: them and that's when they're like looking to open an
Speaker 1: Irish style pub and McNally and his team worked with
Speaker 1: them to design the interior based on each location, and
Speaker 1: then once the design is settled, the company builds the
Speaker 1: bar tops and all the furniture, and this happens in
Speaker 1: Ireland and then shifts it over to the site of
Speaker 1: the latest pub.
Speaker 3: So I imagine they are all kind of variations on
Speaker 3: the same theme, right I'm picturing lots of dark wood paneling.
Speaker 3: You got to have a frame photo of James Joyce
Speaker 3: on the wall stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, and Guinness is always always on tap.
Speaker 1: But to be fair, the clients do have more design
Speaker 1: choices than I certainly expected, right, Like, So McNally and
Speaker 1: his team actually offer four different bar styles to build
Speaker 1: off of. They've got the country cottage, their brewery pub,
Speaker 1: the Victorian pub and the Gaelic pub, and the design
Speaker 1: elements for each of these vary pretty widely, but in
Speaker 1: each case all of the corresponding to core is supplied
Speaker 1: by the company, So it's everything from the furniture to
Speaker 1: the lighting to essentially all the chochkeys on the wall.
Speaker 3: And so what's the thinking there, like is this approach
Speaker 3: supposed to make these pubs more authentic or what.
Speaker 1: Yeah. McNally says that authentic design, and authentic Irish food
Speaker 1: and authentic Irish beverages are all key ingredients for a
Speaker 1: successful Irish pub. He never really defines those terms, so
Speaker 1: you're not getting like bloomin Irish onions. But the process
Speaker 1: this company follows gives us an idea of what he means.
Speaker 3: You meant the fact that all these pubs are being
Speaker 3: designed and like pre built in Ireland.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a big part of it. Also,
Speaker 1: all the materials in decor is sourced from Ireland and
Speaker 1: based on the structural elements of like popular bars in Dublin.
Speaker 1: So there's actually kind of a lot to back up
Speaker 1: the claim that these are quote unquote authentic Irish pubs.
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess you're right.
Speaker 3: And don't get me wrong, it's fascinating that there's a
Speaker 3: company responsible for giving all these Irish pubs the same feel.
Speaker 3: It just it just seems like such a corporate process
Speaker 3: that I can't help but think of it as somehow inauthentic.
Speaker 1: Well I wasn't going to mention this, but it isn't
Speaker 1: just one company doing this. Others have actually gotten into
Speaker 1: the pub making act over the years, including a company
Speaker 1: called Old Irish Pubs Limited and Love Irish Pubs. So
Speaker 1: it is a competitive market.
Speaker 2: I love it. They are just all on the nose
Speaker 2: with they're naming.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's exactly what people want, you know. Some
Speaker 1: people argue that if you go to the Italy Pavilion
Speaker 1: at Epcot, you know, you wouldn't say you've had an
Speaker 1: authentic Italian experience. But there is something to be said
Speaker 1: for like curating an environment that feels immersive or transportive
Speaker 1: and you can evoke a feeling similar to that of
Speaker 1: the real place, and sometimes that's a positive experience that
Speaker 1: you know, can prompt people to seek out the authentic
Speaker 1: version for themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like I guess if somebody falls in love with the
Speaker 3: Irish pub and Phoenix, they may decide to take a
Speaker 3: trip over to Ireland.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's just like we were saying, Taco bell
Speaker 1: can be a gateway food to more traditional Mexican food.
Speaker 1: But exactly if the manufacturer, big business version can bring
Speaker 1: so much happiness, I'm sure people feel like they're just
Speaker 1: getting a taste of it. They'd love to be a
Speaker 1: place where this is happening more regularly.
Speaker 3: I can't stop thinking about Taco Bell now Mango. This
Speaker 3: is a real problem. I'll take your word for it.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the spirit of placemaking, because there's
Speaker 1: a quote I wanted to share from the interview McNally
Speaker 1: did for Men's Journal. He's talking about how the Irish
Speaker 1: pub concept is more than just a money making scheme
Speaker 1: aimed at tourists, and as he puts it, quote, people
Speaker 1: engage with the sense of community, friendship, and conviviality that
Speaker 1: they find in an authentic Irish pub. In that sense,
Speaker 1: pubs are an important connection from Ireland and its people
Speaker 1: to the rest of the world, and for the irishmen
Speaker 1: and women living abroad, the pubs are gathering venues which
Speaker 1: allow them to feel home. It's a portal to Ireland.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can see what he means.
Speaker 3: It's interesting, like the more we talk about all this,
Speaker 3: the more I can see how that connection between food
Speaker 3: and authenticity might mean different things to different people, like
Speaker 3: a sense of home or comfort, a feeling of adventure,
Speaker 3: a taste of the exotic, or like a display of
Speaker 3: common values. But there's always more to it than just
Speaker 3: simply having a meal of course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's starting to make more sense why voters like
Speaker 1: seeing politicians eat comfort food, right, Like, it's a play
Speaker 1: to emotions more than reason. But if anything, that only
Speaker 1: makes it more effective.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: All right, well now we've got a bit more to
Speaker 3: say on this subject, but first let's take one more
Speaker 3: quick break.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to part time Genius.
Speaker 3: All right, Mango, you were telling us about how Irish
Speaker 3: pubs have flourished over the past three decades, and it
Speaker 3: started to sound kind of familiar. And then it hit me, Mango,
Speaker 3: the restaurant we haven't brought up yet, Cracker Barrel.
Speaker 1: Of all the restaurants in all the world, I didn't
Speaker 1: think you were going to bring up Cracker Barrel.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, the chain restaurant that uses the old
Speaker 3: Southern country store motif. And they, of course created quite
Speaker 3: a stir last year when they tried to change their
Speaker 3: longtime logo.
Speaker 2: You remember all this nonsense.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I think they wanted to ditch the cracker barrel. Right.
Speaker 1: And also that old guy sitting next to that.
Speaker 3: Cracker barrel, Yeah, he's been sitting there so long. Well, anyway,
Speaker 3: his name if you remember is Uncle Herschel, the salesman.
Speaker 3: The the salesman uncle of Cracker Barrel founder Dan Evans.
Speaker 3: But yeah, the company wanted to attract new customers and
Speaker 3: they thought that a simpler streamline logo would help them
Speaker 3: do it.
Speaker 2: But that wasn't all.
Speaker 3: Like the rebrand was also going to include a major
Speaker 3: overhaul of the restaurant's interiors.
Speaker 1: So first of all, I had no idea his name
Speaker 1: was Uncle Herschel. And I feel like that's the type
Speaker 1: of thing I should know, right knowing all the trivia
Speaker 1: we know, like, it feels like that's something I want
Speaker 1: to come up. But I also remember you actually took
Speaker 1: me to my first Cracker Barrel. I'd never do to
Speaker 1: say that, and we went to college, and I just
Speaker 1: remember it was such a novel thing because there were
Speaker 1: like rocking chairs on the porch and there was like
Speaker 1: a little country store. But beyond that, I really don't
Speaker 1: remember much about the interior.
Speaker 3: A lot of rock and chairs, a lot of those
Speaker 3: peg games. And there are actually more than six hundred
Speaker 3: Cracker Barrel locations across the country, and every one of
Speaker 3: them is stuffed with roughly a thousand pieces of old
Speaker 3: timey Americana, but in this effort to draw younger crowd,
Speaker 3: all of those nostalgic props were set to be removed.
Speaker 3: It turns out so nobody really wanted this slick, modern
Speaker 3: cracker barrel, because when the plans were made public, the
Speaker 3: Internet went ballistic. I don't know if you know this, Mango,
Speaker 3: but sometimes the Internet is not very friendly to things,
Speaker 3: and the fact that this restaurant kind of had this
Speaker 3: disregard for its own look and history like it pretty
Speaker 3: much upset everyone, from the lifelong diners to the people
Speaker 3: who were only familiar with the brand from its highway signs.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't understand why people who were just
Speaker 1: familiar with the brand from the highway signs were that
Speaker 1: upset about it.
Speaker 2: But people love to get worked up.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was a tough week for the marketing team, right.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm guessing. So it seemed like a brutal
Speaker 3: week for the marketing team. But again it you know,
Speaker 3: it all speaks to the importance of perceived authenticity. People
Speaker 3: thought the restaurant wasn't going to be true to its roots,
Speaker 3: and the backlash led to a one hundred million dollar
Speaker 3: drop in the company's market value. So as a result,
Speaker 3: the changes were completely dropped. Uncle Herschel was called out
Speaker 3: of retirement and all that stuff on the restaurant's walls
Speaker 3: were left right where it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't know they had one hundred million
Speaker 1: dollars to drop.
Speaker 3: But I hope we don't ever say anything dumb and
Speaker 3: have one hundred million dollar drop in the value of
Speaker 3: part time genius.
Speaker 2: You know, be careful.
Speaker 1: But it's also so funny. It's like, because they decided
Speaker 1: to upgrade the design, that's so insane.
Speaker 2: It's really weird, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I am still curious about the decor, though, Like, can
Speaker 1: you remind me what is on those walls that people
Speaker 1: are so attached to?
Speaker 2: I sure can. I've actually got a list right here.
Speaker 3: So at any given Cracker barrel, you're likely to find
Speaker 3: all manner of antiques mounted on the walls and even
Speaker 3: hanging from the ceiling, including all right, here we go,
Speaker 3: butter churns, washtubs, tobacco cans, old bottles, farm implements, nickel
Speaker 3: soda machines, black and white portraits, shoe trees, vintage metal signs,
Speaker 3: kitchen tools, mechanics tools, and of course bicycles.
Speaker 1: I have forgotten all of that. I feel like we
Speaker 1: need to make another visit.
Speaker 3: Time to go back for their dish. They have a
Speaker 3: dish mango if you remember, called chicken fried chicken, which
Speaker 3: really just confuses people. So I'm gonna let people do
Speaker 3: their own research as to what that means. But it
Speaker 3: is nostalgia central. And one cool thing I read though,
Speaker 3: is that there are five special items that are placed
Speaker 3: in every store that they open. Those signature items are
Speaker 3: a traffic light, a cookstove, a deer head, a telephone,
Speaker 3: and of course a shotgun.
Speaker 2: You know, the essentials.
Speaker 1: I love that a traffic light, like, what is the light?
Speaker 2: Gotta have a traffic light.
Speaker 1: Also, it is so weird that you didn't say a
Speaker 1: cracker barrel.
Speaker 2: I guess that would just be too obvious.
Speaker 3: My guess is all of them probably have a cracker
Speaker 3: barrel in there at some point. But anyway, so what
Speaker 3: is interesting is that all the other items vary from
Speaker 3: store to store, and many are specially chosen for that location. So,
Speaker 3: for example, the cracker barrel in coastal towns might have
Speaker 3: a bunch of fishing gear on the walls to make
Speaker 3: it feel more authentically local.
Speaker 1: So, speaking of authentic, are all these items real antiques
Speaker 1: or are they mostly like props made to look old.
Speaker 3: That's actually a really good question, and I would not
Speaker 3: have guessed the answer to this, but surprisingly they are
Speaker 3: all antique. I actually read this interview this week with
Speaker 3: one of the original decor managers for Cracker Barrel. It's
Speaker 3: a guy named Larry Singleton, and to the best of
Speaker 3: his knowledge, every item hung on the walls is one
Speaker 3: hundred percent authentic, meaning not a reproduction of an item,
Speaker 3: but the actual item itself, and none of the items
Speaker 3: were manufactured within the last few decades.
Speaker 1: Where do they get this stuff?
Speaker 3: Apparently the company has this whole warehouse full of stuff
Speaker 3: at their headquarters in Lebanon, Tennessee, and it's a twenty
Speaker 3: six thousand square foot facility that houses somewhere north of
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand items at any given time, each of
Speaker 3: which is inventoried with its own unique barcode. So there's
Speaker 3: a mockup of a history interior in the warehouse. And
Speaker 3: anytime a new restaurant is scheduled to open, the design
Speaker 3: team pulls out a load of rustic decors and sort
Speaker 3: of arranges it on their set. They then take pictures
Speaker 3: so the arrangement can be reproduced and all the items
Speaker 3: are packed up and shipped to that new location.
Speaker 1: That's kind of a fascinating process. Yeah, so does the
Speaker 1: company just have an army of antique spires or something,
Speaker 1: because it feels like it must take an awful lot
Speaker 1: of antiques to constantly fill that massive warehouse.
Speaker 3: No, that's definitely true, and apparently it's getting tougher as
Speaker 3: the years go by. So shows like American Pickers and
Speaker 3: others centered on antiquing have really stepped up the competition
Speaker 3: and of course made it harder to find some of
Speaker 3: the old items that have become Cracker Barrel staples. But
Speaker 3: the good news is there's no need to panic just yet.
Speaker 3: I could sense you were on the verge of panicking there.
Speaker 3: But the company has built this nationwide network of antique
Speaker 3: dealers during its sixty years in business, and they're determined
Speaker 3: to keep Cracker Barrel flush with butter churns for many
Speaker 3: years to come.
Speaker 1: All right, so we can breathe easy. It does make
Speaker 1: me wonder, though, like if other theme restaurants have similar
Speaker 1: arrangements to this. This makes me think about decor in general.
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, yeah, they definitely do.
Speaker 3: So if you think about something like Planet Hollywood, for instance,
Speaker 3: he does something similar with their stores. The company has
Speaker 3: this stockpile of authentic props and it divvies them out
Speaker 3: to each location, and that way customers can experience the
Speaker 3: thrill of sitting next to the boxing gloves stallone Warren Rocky,
Speaker 3: or Brendan Fraser's loincloth from Georgia the Jungle, or you
Speaker 3: think about all of these sort of classic and strange
Speaker 3: items from different movies.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I also wonder like, has anyone ever
Speaker 1: specifically asked to be seated next to Brendan Fraser's loin clawn?
Speaker 3: I think after this episode that's gonna happen. Only Brendan
Speaker 3: Fraser has asked to do that is actually my guess.
Speaker 3: But back on the topic, So TGI Friday's is actually
Speaker 3: another example. So they've got a twenty five thousand square
Speaker 3: foot warehouse somewhere in Nashville, and they refuse to disclose
Speaker 3: the exact location and is it apparently piled high with memorabilia.
Speaker 3: So the company has looser guidelines for its decore than
Speaker 3: Cracker Barrel, but it still claims that about seventy five
Speaker 3: percent of the items on display are actual antiques. TGI
Speaker 3: Friday's even has its own signature items that appear in
Speaker 3: every single store. One of them that I thought was
Speaker 3: interesting an air aarplane collar over the bar and a
Speaker 3: racing skull, which is meant to remind employees that they
Speaker 3: should work as a team, with all oars pulling together
Speaker 3: in the same direction.
Speaker 1: It's also so funny to me that, like, they've got
Speaker 1: a massive warehouse and they won't tell you where it
Speaker 1: is for fear of like what theft.
Speaker 2: To any good things?
Speaker 3: There?
Speaker 2: Man to any good things?
Speaker 1: So what about things like the taxidermy alligator heads like
Speaker 1: that where sunglasses? Do you have any idea what that represents?
Speaker 2: I don't actually know either way.
Speaker 3: All this talk of TGIF and cracker barrel it makes
Speaker 3: me really think we ought to plan our next trip
Speaker 3: to actually to both of these, to be honest.
Speaker 1: But before we do, what do you say we make
Speaker 1: time for a fact off, here's something about that authentic
Speaker 1: Indian food that I never told you because you and
Speaker 1: I both love chicken tka masala. So while the dish
Speaker 1: feels rich and complex and you know deeply Indian. It's
Speaker 1: actually a modern remix born outside India, and most often
Speaker 1: it is credited to Britain.
Speaker 2: Some people call it Scottish.
Speaker 1: The dish likely emerged when South Asian cooks in the
Speaker 1: UK adapted traditional chicken tika, which is like dry, spiced
Speaker 1: grilled meat, and added a creamy tomato sauce to suit
Speaker 1: the British diners who wanted something richer and less dry. So,
Speaker 1: in other words, it's essentially a diaspora cuisine. It is
Speaker 1: Indian technique and Western preferences, so kind of like that
Speaker 1: fusion we were talking about. And in India, you know,
Speaker 1: it does exist, but in the UK it's way more
Speaker 1: popular and it's often jokingly called Britain's national dish. Like
Speaker 1: many authentic foods, chicken tika masala isn't about historical purity.
Speaker 1: It's about adaptation, migration and cooks solving a very practical
Speaker 1: problem how to make unfamiliar food comforting to a new audience.
Speaker 3: All Right, So a lot of people have probably heard
Speaker 3: the fact that champagne can only be called champagne if
Speaker 3: it was made in the Champagne region of France. Otherwise
Speaker 3: it's just sparkling white wine. But what I didn't know
Speaker 3: before is that that geographic distinction was actually written into
Speaker 3: the Treaty of Versailles is a way to secure the
Speaker 3: valuable brand name for French winemakers in the wake of
Speaker 3: World War One. But since the United States never signed
Speaker 3: that treaty, American winemakers had a free pass to continue
Speaker 3: using the term for decades, whether the French liked it or.
Speaker 1: Not, and I'm guessing they did not like it they did.
Speaker 2: It turns up that.
Speaker 1: Means there's no such thing as California champagne then.
Speaker 3: Right, I mean technically no, And in two thousand and six,
Speaker 3: the USNEU actually made a deal to start phasing out
Speaker 3: the term's use on American products, so you won't find
Speaker 3: a lot of California champagne on the shelves these days.
Speaker 3: And that said, there are actually a few American producers
Speaker 3: who were grandfathered in and are still permitted to use
Speaker 3: the word on their labels. This includes Corbell, which has
Speaker 3: been making California champagne since back in eighteen eighty, two
Speaker 3: decades before the Treaty of Versailles was actually drafted, and
Speaker 3: Miller High Life, which has billed itself as the quote
Speaker 3: as we know champagne fags, right, that's right, you know
Speaker 3: your fancy stuff, and that since nineteen o six, again
Speaker 3: predating the treaty.
Speaker 1: That is so amazing that the Champagne of beers was
Speaker 1: Grandfather Day.
Speaker 2: It definitely is.
Speaker 3: And while all of this might sound ridiculous to us,
Speaker 3: the French government actually takes it very very serious. Last year,
Speaker 3: a French winemaker was sentenced to a year and a
Speaker 3: half in prison for making and selling thousands of bottles
Speaker 3: of fake champagne.
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure if you knew this, but did
Speaker 1: you know that there is a real anti end behind
Speaker 1: the mall food?
Speaker 2: Oh? No kidding it.
Speaker 1: A Delicious Pretzel company started as a humble roadside stand
Speaker 1: and it was run by Ann Baylor, Pennsylvania Mennonite women
Speaker 1: who originally sold soft pretzels to support a free counseling
Speaker 1: center that her family had opened. In Mennonite culture, food
Speaker 1: is practical, it's communal, it is intentionally simple, so there
Speaker 1: is no flash. There's no indulgence for indulgence's sake. The
Speaker 1: pretzels were just meant to be filling and affordable. Instead,
Speaker 1: they've turned kind of this crave engineered snack, right like.
Speaker 1: Once the recipe hit malls in the late nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: everything shifted. They added a butter sugar crept in. Cinnamon
Speaker 1: sugar became a thing, and the smell itself became part
Speaker 1: of the product. What began is this faith rooted, service
Speaker 1: oriented side project actually evolved into a global brand built
Speaker 1: on roma marketing, impulse buying, and indulgence. It was still
Speaker 1: selling this handrol tradition, just now it was under fluorescent
Speaker 1: lights next to you a sneaker store.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: Well, in a similar vein, there are tons of so
Speaker 3: called national foods that actually aren't from where their names
Speaker 3: suggest they might be. So for example, French fries are
Speaker 3: from Belgium, Russian dressing was invented in New Hampshire, sauerkraut
Speaker 3: hails from China, not Germany. Swedish meatballs were originally Turkish,
Speaker 3: and danishes were created by Austrian bakers.
Speaker 1: So basically our pantries are kind of a den of lives.
Speaker 3: Also, German chocolate cake isn't actually German. It was invented
Speaker 3: by an English American named Samuel German.
Speaker 1: That's pretty amazing. I guess that's a good reminder of
Speaker 1: just how meaningless idea of authentic we can sometimes be.
Speaker 1: So for that, I think you deserve today's trophy.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: I didn't think I would take it for that, but
Speaker 3: Samuel Jerman, thank you very much. All right, well, I'd
Speaker 3: like to dedicate this trophy to the good people of Australia,
Speaker 3: where sophisticated palettes have been maligned for far too long.
Speaker 2: That's going to do it for today's show.
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed what you heard, be sure to subscribe,
Speaker 3: leave us a nice rating, and share the show with
Speaker 3: a friend. If you don't mind, you can also drop
Speaker 3: us a line at high Geniuses at gmail dot com. Again,
Speaker 3: that's Hi, Geniuses at gmail dot com. Or call the
Speaker 3: hotline day or night Mango. This hotline is open twenty
Speaker 3: four to seven, three sixty five, just like waffle House,
Speaker 3: which we didn't talk about today NonStop. That number is
Speaker 3: three h two four oh five five nine two five.
Speaker 3: We would love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. We actually recently got a message from a listener
Speaker 1: named Oliver who was asking us to do an episode
Speaker 1: all about the cool inventions Canada has come up with
Speaker 1: over the years. And Oliver, great minds. Do you think alike,
Speaker 1: because we already have an episode on that very subject.
Speaker 1: It's called Thanks Canada, Nine Great Inventions from the Great
Speaker 1: White North. But I love inventions. I love invention origins.
Speaker 1: I'm actually gonna go research and try ay more for
Speaker 1: you and put them up on Instagram. And that's just
Speaker 1: for you, Oliver. That is it for today's episode from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary,
Speaker 1: and myself. Thank you so much for listening. Part Time
Speaker 1: Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. It is
Speaker 1: hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known
Speaker 1: for almost three decades now. That is insane to me.
Speaker 1: I'm the uta co host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer
Speaker 1: is Mary Phillips Sandy. She's actually a super producer. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier,
Speaker 1: who I've also.
Speaker 2: Known for like a decade at this point, maybe more.
Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is always dressed up,
Speaker 1: always cheering us on, and always ready to hit record
Speaker 1: and then mix the show after he does a great job.
Speaker 1: I also want to shout out the executive producers from
Speaker 1: iHeart my good pals Katrina and Norvel and Ali Perry.
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Speaker 1: That's it from us here at Part Time Genius. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for listening.