Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to everywhere. I am your host, Daniel Scheffler.
Speaker 1: Today's travel commandment thou shall shut the funk up and
Speaker 1: learn something. Myself and yourself might not be the same.
Speaker 1: What some call America's Deep South includes, without question Georgia, Alabama,
Speaker 1: South Carolina, Mississippi, and Louisiana a k a. The Cotton Belt.
Speaker 1: But for some like me, Tennessee and Arkansas feel so
Speaker 1: much part of my Southern appreciation, whereas Florida and Texas
Speaker 1: appear to be totally their own things, almost in a
Speaker 1: kind of isolation. Some travel industry people are actively calling
Speaker 1: it the New South. I guess it's less controversial than
Speaker 1: calling it Dixie and right. I think what they mean
Speaker 1: is that a bunch of hipsters have opened up a
Speaker 1: design centric descourse stores and themed boutique hotels, or found
Speaker 1: new ways of barbecuing and are getting tattooed whilst they're
Speaker 1: at it. But for me, if I choose to live
Speaker 1: in America, I need to travel America. The least I
Speaker 1: can do is to get to know it. All. The
Speaker 1: South sounds so monolithic to me that I was determined
Speaker 1: to unpack it and allow every region, every county every
Speaker 1: piece I could discover to show me what it is
Speaker 1: and what it is not. Charleston and Nashville are the
Speaker 1: current gems and the travel game, the bride's maids and
Speaker 1: the cool kids have descended. But I've also wondered about Greenville,
Speaker 1: South Carolina, and also about Little Rock, Arkansas, and even Atlanta.
Speaker 1: So I orchestrated a series of road trips across the
Speaker 1: South over the course of a few years. Some studies
Speaker 1: like Memphis, Tennessee, and Savannah, Georgia, I returned to numerous
Speaker 1: times because there was so much to find that I
Speaker 1: just simply love. And the road from Knoxville, Tennessee, to Asheville,
Speaker 1: North Carolina, to Spartanburg, which is also North Carolina, I
Speaker 1: could possibly now drive in my sleep. But then they
Speaker 1: parts of the South that I still need to get to,
Speaker 1: so see you soon, Montgomery, Alabama, and San Antonio, Texas.
Speaker 1: My friend Sue and I decided that if we wanted
Speaker 1: to understand a little more of America, the good and
Speaker 1: the bad, we needed to road trip through Mississippi. I've
Speaker 1: always loved the many essays in that wood and those
Speaker 1: iconic silky essays on the road signs just thrilled me.
Speaker 1: So we started off with a wild weekend in New
Speaker 1: Orleans for her birthday, which ended with us in a
Speaker 1: car driving over the Twin Span Bridge from Louisiana into Mississippi.
Speaker 1: Oh look, she said, a dollar gen a store And
Speaker 1: that was the first of our troop. After a week
Speaker 1: in the state, we had counted nearly a hundred different
Speaker 1: of these. It was our official road trip game. We
Speaker 1: also came up with a new slogan for the Mississippi
Speaker 1: Tourism Board. Better than you think. You need to say
Speaker 1: that really fast together, better than you think, and we
Speaker 1: tried it on locals. They all seem to like it
Speaker 1: a lot. Our first stop was the Luxe. I was
Speaker 1: told that had three syllables, so you had to slow
Speaker 1: your pronunciation right down. The Luxe a beach town with
Speaker 1: large casinos, plenty of surf, and even more shrimp. Back
Speaker 1: in the day, the casinos weren't floating barges for tax
Speaker 1: and regulation purposes and sneakiness I suspect. But today they're
Speaker 1: all on the beach. And of course Sue knew how
Speaker 1: to gamble. In Mississippi, they have crapless craps a craps
Speaker 1: variant in which the player cannot lose a pass bet
Speaker 1: on the come out role. Yes, I have no idea
Speaker 1: what that means, but it was fun to watch Sue
Speaker 1: make a couple of thousand dollars within minutes. The town
Speaker 1: of belux Se also boasts a Frank Gary designed or
Speaker 1: O'Keefe Museum of Art. Nothing to do with George O'Keeffe.
Speaker 1: This was just the family who paid for the museum,
Speaker 1: dedicated to the mad pot of Biluxei. George e Er.
Speaker 1: In the late nineteenth century, pottery was taking America by storm,
Speaker 1: and I probably need Holly to tell us more about this,
Speaker 1: but it was usually a French laurel or Japanese minimal.
Speaker 1: But good old George had other plans, like pots in
Speaker 1: anatomical shapes or a whole filled coffee mug that required
Speaker 1: you to drink from it in a specific way to
Speaker 1: avoid a spill. Long after his death, the art world
Speaker 1: caught up with him, and even Andy Warrell became a collector.
Speaker 1: So right next to Biloxi is a little extension of
Speaker 1: the area called Ocean Springs, a sweet little town with
Speaker 1: incredible chefs and young people who are from the area
Speaker 1: and revitalizing it in a sort of entrepreneurial spirit. And
Speaker 1: this is where I really started to ponder about gentrification.
Speaker 1: Here it felt less like hipsters moving in and shaking
Speaker 1: things up by kicking locals out, and more like rebuilding
Speaker 1: a defunct part of the state. In fact, the whole
Speaker 1: coast fell under disrepair with weather disasters and people just
Speaker 1: moving away. But here in the Ocean Springs community, albeit
Speaker 1: pretty small, pulled together to create a place for progressive
Speaker 1: people to come live healthy, creative lifestyle. I entered us
Speaker 1: into the local Southern biscuit competition, where town folks were
Speaker 1: competing every Thursday with no family recipe. It's no wonder
Speaker 1: my sneakily storeboard biscuits lost to the savory bless your
Speaker 1: Heart a can and cheese entry. No trip to Mississippi
Speaker 1: is complete without a stop in its capital, Jackson, home
Speaker 1: to the Mississippi Civil Rights Museum that opened not so
Speaker 1: long ago. So here we were two white people standing
Speaker 1: next to a Confederate flag and a ku Klux Klan
Speaker 1: costume in display cabinets. An eerie darkness descended on Sue
Speaker 1: and I. This was in some ways America. I was
Speaker 1: standing in this museum room when an older African American
Speaker 1: lady came to stand next to me. She looked at me,
Speaker 1: and I looked at her silence, and then we held
Speaker 1: hands and we both started to quietly weep. All I
Speaker 1: wanted to say is I'm sorry to apologize with something
Speaker 1: I didn't quite understand. I felt some of the pain
Speaker 1: and I think African Americans must experience walking through the museum,
Speaker 1: and I felt shame for the world. We stood there
Speaker 1: for a long time, just trying to process our emotions,
Speaker 1: and this is often how I feel. In the South.
Speaker 1: I don't quite grasp the race situation. I was born
Speaker 1: in Africa as a white boy, and it fences my understanding,
Speaker 1: and I do wish that I could talk about it
Speaker 1: more openly, and that maybe I could shut the funk
Speaker 1: up and listen to someone for once. Unfortunately, in most schools,
Speaker 1: and certainly the ones I attended, I just wasn't given
Speaker 1: the vocabulary to talk about it bravely. I did have
Speaker 1: an English teacher at high school whom i'm still best
Speaker 1: friends with, that encouraged reading James Baldwin and black writers
Speaker 1: from all over Africa. We debated race and class and
Speaker 1: ways that felt both respectful and very challenging. But that
Speaker 1: was the eleventh grade, and this is the real world,
Speaker 1: so real that when Michael and I found ourselves at
Speaker 1: a plantation house in South Carolina, just north of Charleston
Speaker 1: as part of our tour of the South, we both
Speaker 1: felt pretty uncomfortable staying on property. But somehow this like
Speaker 1: uneasy feeling was probably something we needed to deal with
Speaker 1: and not run away from. So we stayed, and it
Speaker 1: was really hard not to make a run for it.
Speaker 1: When there was this bizarre re enacted slavery section as
Speaker 1: part of the touristy tour of the grounds, I naturally
Speaker 1: took this opportunity to question our tour guide and rapid
Speaker 1: fire questions with her about the South and racism. She
Speaker 1: wouldn't let up. The more I talked about it, the
Speaker 1: more she wouldn't. The next morning I had my moment.
Speaker 1: Breakfast was awfully formal, served at this very long table
Speaker 1: in the old slave master's home. We took our seats,
Speaker 1: and this now owner of the property brought out family
Speaker 1: style food. Soon enough, I asked the woman next to
Speaker 1: me whether, as a white woman, she felt aren't being there.
Speaker 1: She looked at me for a split second in silence,
Speaker 1: and then started talking fast. Hi, I'm Annie, and we're
Speaker 1: from a small town nearby in South Carolina, and we've
Speaker 1: come here to understand race a little better. And on
Speaker 1: she went. Her daddy, who was sitting next to Michael,
Speaker 1: ran a chain of grocery stores aimed at lower income communities,
Speaker 1: and her mama helped local women in their community get
Speaker 1: kids through school. In fact, her parents had adopted many
Speaker 1: local kids and helped them get educated. Her brother, for instance,
Speaker 1: who happens to be African American, was finishing up Harvard
Speaker 1: in the fall. She herself ran a clinic for woman
Speaker 1: to get healthcare services at cheaper rates, even abortions. She added,
Speaker 1: if that's what they wanted. We chatted for about an
Speaker 1: hour with this whole family, and with the elections going on,
Speaker 1: it obviously turned political. And at some point I said, oh,
Speaker 1: I so wish I could spend an hour of my
Speaker 1: life with Trump supporters so I could just better understand
Speaker 1: their viewpoints. The room went silent and Annie said, you
Speaker 1: just did, and the rug was pulled. Those are the
Speaker 1: moments that the South keeps delivering to me. In Memphis,
Speaker 1: I met this glamorous hat wearing woman named Karen who
Speaker 1: owns a restaurant called the Beauty Shop. So one night
Speaker 1: we were sitting at dinner and you can sit under
Speaker 1: the old hand dryers, and she told me about her staff.
Speaker 1: I hired the ones who don't feel like they belong,
Speaker 1: she told me. And it's true. I've been to the
Speaker 1: restaurant a number of times now and made it my
Speaker 1: business to chat to the service and bartenders and line chefs.
Speaker 1: Many of them are lgbt Q and have come from
Speaker 1: small towns or maybe a farm somewhere in the South
Speaker 1: where they are not welcome. They told me stories about
Speaker 1: being chased from their childhood homes by guns, and how
Speaker 1: some were sent to gay conversion therapy classes. But luckily
Speaker 1: news travels and many kids scared for their lives need
Speaker 1: to run away. Here about Karen's I don't know safe haven,
Speaker 1: And as she says, I'll hire just about anyone. Everyone's
Speaker 1: welcome here. How can I not ponder how fortunate I
Speaker 1: am to have had an immediate family who embraced my sexuality,
Speaker 1: who never made me feel lesser because I happen to
Speaker 1: love men. Of course, the story is about race acceptance,
Speaker 1: identity are everywhere in the Greatest South, ready for anyone
Speaker 1: to take and start discussing, like the Savannah College of
Speaker 1: Art and Design, transform the electric City of Savannah and
Speaker 1: open it up to a new generation of creatives from
Speaker 1: all walks of life and all over the world. There's
Speaker 1: nothing I love more than people who are Southern and
Speaker 1: come back to the South to find their roots, like
Speaker 1: Mashama Bailey, who runs the incredible Africa meets Southern meets
Speaker 1: New York City restaurant The Gray in Savannah. Nobody embodies
Speaker 1: the South quite like she does. But just a few
Speaker 1: hours south of the city, nearby on some beautiful Georgian
Speaker 1: islands is where I found out Blacks weren't welcome at
Speaker 1: some of the resorts until about twenty years ago. The
Speaker 1: Jews weren't until about ten years ago, and only very
Speaker 1: recently other gays welcomed. In Dallas, I'm always struck by
Speaker 1: how Sheik people are on the street, the most sophisticated
Speaker 1: Southern city by far. Maybe the Nieman Marcus HQ downtown
Speaker 1: could take some credit. And close to Lexington, Kentucky, I
Speaker 1: learned about the Shaker communities who had a model of
Speaker 1: equality of the sexes in Raleigh, North Carolina, Michael and
Speaker 1: I became friends with a chef, one of Indian descent
Speaker 1: by way of the Bronx, and a restaurateur who came
Speaker 1: to America as an adopted baby from Lao. The expressions
Speaker 1: of being Southern is what America is all about to me. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mentioned their ethnicity just to make a wide a
Speaker 1: point that the South is a place filled with everyone.
Speaker 1: The stereotypes of the South are useless and I think dated.
Speaker 1: They cannot just be this one idea of the South.
Speaker 1: And people like Cheaty and Van and Raleigh, they show
Speaker 1: us that every experience is valid and that every single
Speaker 1: person can open your mind, but only if you let them.
Speaker 1: Now everyone for a time out, except for sponsors. We'll
Speaker 1: be right back with more Everywhere trade tables up. You're
Speaker 1: returning to Everywhere land. Maybe it's time for a little
Speaker 1: holly chat about the South. Since she is from the South,
Speaker 1: Ish Ish, so she says, I wasn't born in the South.
Speaker 1: I was a military kid. So I was born in Arizona,
Speaker 1: and I lived in Seattle, and we moved to Florida
Speaker 1: when I was nine, and then I'm moved to Atlanta
Speaker 1: for college and I never left, so I am, in
Speaker 1: practical sense absolutely a Southerner. Although it's kind of funny
Speaker 1: because I sometimes find myself feeling a little between two worlds.
Speaker 1: When I talked to relatives from like Michigan, for example,
Speaker 1: they think I have the thickest Southern accent they've ever heard,
Speaker 1: Whereas when I'm in the South, people are like, are
Speaker 1: you a Yankee? But the real question is in New York,
Speaker 1: where did they think you're from. Sometimes a lot of
Speaker 1: people in New York think I'm from New York, which
Speaker 1: cracks me up. Like my point of pride is that,
Speaker 1: like if I'm walking up Eighth Avenue, which anybody who
Speaker 1: knows New York is like tourism Central, that the people
Speaker 1: who are trying to hustle and sell you tickets to
Speaker 1: the any of the things like whether it's a Broadway
Speaker 1: show or to get to the top of the Empire
Speaker 1: State Building, they ignore me completely, And I'm like, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: I'm blended in with New York, So yeah, new Yorkers don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever had an interaction with the
Speaker 1: New Yorker where they ask of him from the South.
Speaker 1: That's interesting when I say I'm from New York. People
Speaker 1: immediately say it, way you really from and I go why,
Speaker 1: and they go, well, you don't sound like you're from
Speaker 1: New Yon. And then I have to say, well, New
Speaker 1: Yon doesn't have a sound it exactly. Interestingly enough, um
Speaker 1: Ella's with us in studio. My dog she's from Puerto Rico,
Speaker 1: and very often people would ask me, always a dog
Speaker 1: from it, and I'd say, oh, she's Puerto Rican and
Speaker 1: they'd be like, oh, she's from a foreign country. And
Speaker 1: I have to be like, well, no, Puerto Rico is American,
Speaker 1: and they'd be like, no, it's not right. There's some
Speaker 1: confusion that still persists on that point. But that's like
Speaker 1: a weird way where like race and diversity and ethnicity
Speaker 1: comes through, like even through my dog, this suddenly this
Speaker 1: like that's the other, Like she's from the other right,
Speaker 1: And everybody's just trying to process the world and like
Speaker 1: define things in in the simplest boxes they can. But
Speaker 1: unfortunately that leads to a sense of otherness. But like
Speaker 1: I feel like because I moved to the South when
Speaker 1: I was nine, which would have been nineteen eighty, because
Speaker 1: I'm a very grown up person, find no baby, I
Speaker 1: have all the life experience for you. So, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: my family moved to the Panhandle of Florida because my
Speaker 1: father is in the military and their bases there. And
Speaker 1: I think we had been living there about two months
Speaker 1: when three lots down from our house and we were
Speaker 1: in a pretty remote area of what is now a
Speaker 1: very booming beach town. But there was a KKK rally
Speaker 1: like complete with burning cross and I just remember like
Speaker 1: looking at my parents and be like, where have you
Speaker 1: moved me to? And we even kind of walked down
Speaker 1: the street tentatively just because like our next door neighbors
Speaker 1: had said, oh, just f y I this is going on.
Speaker 1: Maybe don't go out if you don't you want to
Speaker 1: see any of that. And we were like, wait, no,
Speaker 1: that can't she can't be don't wear white pajamas outside
Speaker 1: in the street tonight. It was just so bizarre. But
Speaker 1: for the longest time, I mean, I grew up in
Speaker 1: a community that was almost in tirely white. We had
Speaker 1: one black kid in my school and he was a
Speaker 1: unicorn to most people, you know, they were like, what
Speaker 1: are you like? And he was like a person. Um.
Speaker 1: I always wondered if he, too, like had been a
Speaker 1: military kid that just kind of landed in the South
Speaker 1: and was suddenly like, what is this experience? And of
Speaker 1: course I was young enough to not realize like, those
Speaker 1: are exactly the people you should seek out and find
Speaker 1: out what their experiences because one they may need an ally,
Speaker 1: and two that's a unique situation that is definitely a
Speaker 1: learning thing, which you're not thinking about that when you're
Speaker 1: a kid, because you're a dumb kid. At least I was.
Speaker 1: Not all kids are. Some are very bright and insightful.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's been very interesting to see that and
Speaker 1: then living, you know, continuing to live in the South
Speaker 1: as I do, how we haven't haven't progressed in the
Speaker 1: intervening thirty plus years. Well, the South to me is
Speaker 1: such a perfect and easy way for anyone to learn
Speaker 1: these lessons, because like, I've traveled to South Africa with
Speaker 1: a black friend and have gone to a beach where
Speaker 1: the entire beach left, Every single person on the beach left,
Speaker 1: and someone said to me, that is the first black
Speaker 1: person to ever come on this beach. And this was
Speaker 1: two thousand and three. Wow, that's not so long ago.
Speaker 1: And this was like a segregated beach, and that happened
Speaker 1: almost ten years after apartheid ended. I don't. I'm curious
Speaker 1: because I feel like you have this unique, parallel, but
Speaker 1: not quite the same experience being from South Africa, where
Speaker 1: there is sometimes a desire I think in the study
Speaker 1: of American history for people to go like, Okay, the
Speaker 1: Civil War happened, and then abolition happened, and then reconstruction
Speaker 1: and racism was solved, and it's like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no. And I wonder if it's similar with apartheid,
Speaker 1: Like maybe the legal rules on the books have been
Speaker 1: done away with, but that doesn't mean that cultural norms
Speaker 1: magically shift to cool. It takes a while, and it
Speaker 1: takes to me. I see it generationally, like maybe you
Speaker 1: grow up in a household that is racist and you
Speaker 1: don't like it, so then you create a household that
Speaker 1: is not that, but surely you're probably still propagating some things.
Speaker 1: And then your kids see that and they do one better,
Speaker 1: and you know what I mean. So I think it
Speaker 1: generationally improves. Not in all cases. Obviously they're outliers to
Speaker 1: that model. So I do. I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: when I talked to teenagers today or kids in their
Speaker 1: early twenties. I'm always wowed by how wise they are
Speaker 1: about embracing each other for who they are and not
Speaker 1: needing to do those things like put people in defined
Speaker 1: boxes with a label on them like that. It's just
Speaker 1: not the same mindset. My gone dn'ta who's like at
Speaker 1: high school would never use race as an identifying for someone.
Speaker 1: She would never go that and to race the girl.
Speaker 1: She would identify them with something that's more universal. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: and there is like this other angle to that, right
Speaker 1: where I like, you don't want to erase though somebody's
Speaker 1: identity in that regard, Like to some people their ethnicity
Speaker 1: is super important and it's a big part of their identity,
Speaker 1: but you don't want to treat it disrespectfully, as just
Speaker 1: like an adjective. So I always wonder how those waters
Speaker 1: will be navigated going forward. Well, I think the idea
Speaker 1: of traveling, like I've spent time in Croatia where the
Speaker 1: friends that I made there had never seen a person
Speaker 1: of color because Croatia wasn't at the time, So this
Speaker 1: is like maybe ten years ago, it wasn't as open
Speaker 1: to tourism, and they would say things like I've never
Speaker 1: seen a person of color so I'm staring not because
Speaker 1: I'm being racist, It's because I don't know it, right.
Speaker 1: I mean there and then the invos, like you go
Speaker 1: to India and some rural parts of India, those people
Speaker 1: have never seen white people and they stare at me
Speaker 1: and look at me like, who's this person? This alien
Speaker 1: from wherever? Honey, it's not because you're a white person.
Speaker 1: It's because you're a tropical fish walking among us human. Yes,
Speaker 1: just because I'm slightly taller than you, you're a tropical fish. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it is fascinating, and it gets back to
Speaker 1: you what you were saying about the other, right, Like
Speaker 1: we come to understand what we're exposed to. And so
Speaker 1: that's like the thing you've talked a lot about being
Speaker 1: open to meeting people and hearing what they have to say,
Speaker 1: and that makes them not the other, even even if
Speaker 1: they are very different from you. There's still part of
Speaker 1: the greater human experience. Well, as I told you about
Speaker 1: my experience with Annie. When I became quiet and was
Speaker 1: able to listen to Annie, who I met at the
Speaker 1: Plantation House, telling me about her life, that's when I
Speaker 1: was learning something instead of just being like my experience,
Speaker 1: my way this is how I see the South. I
Speaker 1: was thing to let somebody else explain to me their
Speaker 1: version of the South, and it shocked me because the
Speaker 1: stereotypes that people have are so wrong, and they based
Speaker 1: on such a small part of the world. Like people
Speaker 1: say things like New York is a rude Where do
Speaker 1: you get the stereotype from? That? One always cracks me
Speaker 1: up a little bit because because my experience to me,
Speaker 1: I meet some of the friendliest people I've ever met
Speaker 1: in New York. Why do you think the South has
Speaker 1: this reputation that's the Southern accent has a reputation, that
Speaker 1: very notion of the South has a reputation. Well, there
Speaker 1: are certainly reasons, right, Like we have a tag on
Speaker 1: our show where we talk about racism is not something
Speaker 1: that only happened in the South, but because it was
Speaker 1: where a lot of high profile civil rights moments happened,
Speaker 1: it looks like where that like the South is where
Speaker 1: the battle over racism was happening. The other thing too,
Speaker 1: that I think is that we don't always realize how
Speaker 1: rooted in history some of these ideas are going all
Speaker 1: the way back to the Civil War, Like two Northerners,
Speaker 1: there are still roots of that idea that everyone in
Speaker 1: the South is a stupid backwards person. Similarly, I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember going to high school with I had a
Speaker 1: wonderful teacher, but her family would still talk about people
Speaker 1: north of the Mason Dixon line as though they were
Speaker 1: the enemy. Like she was telling this story one day
Speaker 1: about how her brother was engaged to a woman from
Speaker 1: like Pennsylvania, and it was like the family scandal. What
Speaker 1: that was like more than a hundred years ago, that
Speaker 1: this actually took place. That you don't have to do
Speaker 1: the the Yankee versus Confederacy thing. I'm not sure why
Speaker 1: this is playing out, but I think that those tendrils
Speaker 1: have continued longer than people realize. Not everyone embraces change,
Speaker 1: particularly not social change. And it's like while things may
Speaker 1: be progressing in one way, the people that don't like
Speaker 1: it really rally the other way, and those they're passing
Speaker 1: those ideas to the next generation after that, etcetera. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's the same thing that we talk about in terms
Speaker 1: of how we see other races, how we see LGBTQ people. Again,
Speaker 1: it goes back to that idea of their this way,
Speaker 1: like it becomes that monolithic idea of Southerners are this way,
Speaker 1: Northerners are this way. When really, I mean, you could
Speaker 1: meet someone from almost any place on Earth, and once
Speaker 1: you get over any possible like language barriers, they could
Speaker 1: take an assortment of boxes of identities and descriptors that
Speaker 1: you would find similar in almost any place in the world,
Speaker 1: depending on you know, what their culture and geography has
Speaker 1: given them to begin with. This is why you get
Speaker 1: on the plane and you go and see everything else, Yes,
Speaker 1: so that you can learn that everything else is the
Speaker 1: same as you. Yeah, I mean it's so cliche, but
Speaker 1: they're really are more similarities than differences. Usually, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, most people just want the basics, right.
Speaker 1: They wanna, you know, find love and connection and community
Speaker 1: and a place to call home. Everything else is kind
Speaker 1: of gravy. I mean, this is the stuff that you
Speaker 1: talk about on your show. Yeah, I mean that's the
Speaker 1: thing that always gets me. Right, Like we have discussed
Speaker 1: off and when people are like, what is your show about,
Speaker 1: I'm like the fact that there have always been people
Speaker 1: in the world of every stripe that we maybe we're
Speaker 1: not led to believe if you will only read, you know,
Speaker 1: history books, because those tend to be a lot of
Speaker 1: old white guys. There have always been women, There have
Speaker 1: always been people of color, There have always been people
Speaker 1: all over the spectrum of gender and sexuality. They were
Speaker 1: all having the human experience too, and contributing to history,
Speaker 1: even though maybe their stories didn't get the attention they deserve.
Speaker 1: That's why you should shut the funk up and learn something. Yes,
Speaker 1: but I've been talking an awful lot, so you teach
Speaker 1: me something. If you'd like to listen to more of Holly,
Speaker 1: you can find at stuff you missed in history class,
Speaker 1: which is at missed in history everywhere on social media
Speaker 1: and missed in history dot com online. Let's take a
Speaker 1: breather and we'll be right back with Everywhere after a
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. The time has come for more
Speaker 1: of Everywhere. Now where were we? Oh? Hi? There you
Speaker 1: are only. Cheety Kamar can be both rock guitarist and
Speaker 1: an indie band and the owner plus chef of a
Speaker 1: James Beard nominated restaurant. If that's not enough, she's also gorgeous.
Speaker 1: I'm in Raleigh, North Carolina with my dearest friend Cheaty Kamar,
Speaker 1: who is the co owner and lovely chef at her restaurant,
Speaker 1: Garland downtown and I am in town for her incredible
Speaker 1: Brown in the South, which she hosted this year. Welcome,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, so nice to be here with
Speaker 1: you in person. I am don't see you enough, think
Speaker 1: of you often, my Indian girl by way of the
Speaker 1: Bronx into Raleigh. That's right, my convoluted journeys. So firstly,
Speaker 1: tell me what is Brown in the South? Okay? So
Speaker 1: Brown in the South is a collective, I should say
Speaker 1: it started with five of us. Um Marijuana Rani in
Speaker 1: Asheville from Chaipani Group and Fishpot is a chef in Oxford, Mississippi,
Speaker 1: and they were at the Southern Food bas Aligne Symposium
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. Every year the symposium has
Speaker 1: a theme, and I think um the Latin South was
Speaker 1: an important theme of that year. And they started talking
Speaker 1: and they were wondering why we don't have that, We
Speaker 1: don't have this coalition, We don't have a voice in
Speaker 1: a platform or at least even just a a structure
Speaker 1: to have this conversation. That conversation happened with them and
Speaker 1: they just decided, like, let's just do a dinner because
Speaker 1: food is the catalyst for all conversation. To us, So
Speaker 1: we did this dinner a year ago in January in
Speaker 1: Decatur at one of Marijuan's restaurants, and it was the
Speaker 1: five of us and it was just like a mind
Speaker 1: blowing experience for all of us and kind of life changing,
Speaker 1: and we decided to do a series and just keep
Speaker 1: doing it and with everyone. We ask other chefs that
Speaker 1: are in that community and go to different cities and
Speaker 1: just like feel that city and invite people that are
Speaker 1: in that region and cooking and like make it an
Speaker 1: inclusive conversation. So when you say brown, you mean Indian. Um,
Speaker 1: we mean Indian because we're Indian, but it can mean anything.
Speaker 1: Because I hosted this one, I really was considering inviting
Speaker 1: Van and our good friend Van is from Laos, And
Speaker 1: then it becomes a little tricky because then you can't.
Speaker 1: Our personal experience has become so varied in a way
Speaker 1: that um, but they're also the same, you know. The
Speaker 1: immigrant experience is very similar and inherent as a part
Speaker 1: of being new in the country is a feeling of
Speaker 1: being isolated, a little bit shameful of your accent. Your
Speaker 1: childhood experiences are not the same. You didn't watch the
Speaker 1: same cartoons, you didn't like I mean, it's just a
Speaker 1: whole set of experiences that make you feel like you're
Speaker 1: the other. And a lot of that is self inflicted.
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily people that tell you that. Some do
Speaker 1: for sure, but you're you're constantly evaluating your difference, chitty um.
Speaker 1: As you know, when I met you, I was doing
Speaker 1: my very own road trip of the South Johney of
Speaker 1: the South with my husband, and the idea it was
Speaker 1: that I wanted to shut the funk up and learn
Speaker 1: something instead of judging the South. I wanted to stop
Speaker 1: thinking of the South and my Daniel way and stop
Speaker 1: thinking of the South and a Southern way. Well, I
Speaker 1: think I remember when I first told my parents that
Speaker 1: I'm moving to North Carolina. They said, oh, why, they're
Speaker 1: they're very racist there, you know, And I said, no,
Speaker 1: you know, you just have to be here. It's different
Speaker 1: and this is not like the Deep South. And then
Speaker 1: I started a band and then we toured, and so
Speaker 1: I did a lot of road tripping too, and playing
Speaker 1: in the South is always different. It's comfortable, it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: The food is good, the people are warm, and you
Speaker 1: can judge them if you want to. But again, if
Speaker 1: you just stop and get out of the way. Um.
Speaker 1: You understand that this is a complicated place with a
Speaker 1: very slow a journey, and unlike I think some of
Speaker 1: the places in the country that are you know, different
Speaker 1: or have a different feel, commerce seems to be like
Speaker 1: the driving force, and here I think such a part
Speaker 1: of the history of our commerce here in the South
Speaker 1: is so awful and it's so ugly. There's um, I
Speaker 1: think there might have been some subconscious shift away from
Speaker 1: money as a priority. So I know there's economic reasons
Speaker 1: for commerce not being the driving force. And it ends
Speaker 1: up being about if you listen, if you're connected to that,
Speaker 1: it's about relationships, and it's about a connection to history,
Speaker 1: family history, and and the land and nature a little
Speaker 1: bit more. There's more space, and there's more time, and
Speaker 1: it's a little bit easier to live here because it
Speaker 1: is economically or it has been, or recent history has
Speaker 1: been economically cheaper. It's a place where you and be
Speaker 1: creative without having this pressure of being you know, um,
Speaker 1: of compromising to make it, to make more money. And
Speaker 1: that's the thing that appealed to me when I was
Speaker 1: a kid just graduated college and and came here. Wow,
Speaker 1: you know, these bands are really cool here, and people
Speaker 1: practice in their house and they buy a used van
Speaker 1: from the state surplus and then they go on tour
Speaker 1: and they book it themselves, and they're not worried about
Speaker 1: having a manager or getting a record deal, and you know,
Speaker 1: eventually you do worry about that, But it was just
Speaker 1: like you just invent your life, you know. And I
Speaker 1: think that there's a certain amount of creative invention at
Speaker 1: the South to me Fosters that I did not find
Speaker 1: when I was growing up in New York in the
Speaker 1: Bronx or went to school in Massachusetts. Like I could
Speaker 1: not have imagined myself in Boston, you know. Can you
Speaker 1: see me in Boston? Yeah? Right. You feel so quintessentially
Speaker 1: Southern to me, which is for me beautiful because when
Speaker 1: I talk about my like quintessential Southern bellfriend, it's you.
Speaker 1: But I like that. I like the idea of you,
Speaker 1: you embodying something so southern, and your sense of hospitality
Speaker 1: is so Southern, Like the South is not this monolithic
Speaker 1: thing that people think like. And part of my whole
Speaker 1: journey of traveling the South was if I choose to
Speaker 1: live in America, I needed to understand the South as
Speaker 1: part of the whole. I needed to come here and
Speaker 1: not just see the divide. I needed to come here
Speaker 1: and see everything and uncover that stuff. Of course, I'm
Speaker 1: a white, privileged person who comes from a certain place.
Speaker 1: I'm clouded by my stuff. But I try and travel
Speaker 1: and unburdened myself of those ideas by just being quiet
Speaker 1: and not coming to the South with my notions of
Speaker 1: what it needs to be. So I arrived and I'm like,
Speaker 1: what is Raleigh. Let Raleigh show me. I came here
Speaker 1: and you showed me that there's a place for everyone
Speaker 1: in the South because everyone and anyone can be summon
Speaker 1: I think it's a matter of staking your claim and
Speaker 1: understanding what your intention is in being here. And yes,
Speaker 1: there's still so much to be done. Race is an issue,
Speaker 1: but it's not just an issue in the South. It's
Speaker 1: an issue everywhere. It's just that it's maybe, uh rightfully
Speaker 1: so a more present and sore wound. Still it's not healed.
Speaker 1: But I feel like when I went to high school
Speaker 1: in the Bronx, you know, uh, that school was segregated.
Speaker 1: We had two separate entrances, so the people on the
Speaker 1: south side came in one way and the people from
Speaker 1: the north side came in a different entrance and in
Speaker 1: that symbol right there. It's like even in one high school,
Speaker 1: you know, that's a that's a big conversation for the
Speaker 1: whole country. Um. But I think I dare say that
Speaker 1: Southern culture has always been pushed forward secretly by brown
Speaker 1: and black people. The white folk maybe own it and
Speaker 1: they have the face, but really we're the ones who
Speaker 1: are pushing it. And the African Americans not only influenced
Speaker 1: the table, they actually made the table from the seed
Speaker 1: to the plate. I mean, there was everything had to
Speaker 1: do with their hands and their history and their um,
Speaker 1: their heart and their family lure that they didn't have
Speaker 1: the benefit of writing and sharing in an any official way.
Speaker 1: When you have that strong culture of storytelling, it becomes
Speaker 1: ingrained in the fabric of a place, and that economic privileges.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not everything, it's it's a lot, and
Speaker 1: it can certainly make life easier. But I think that
Speaker 1: the that heart force has always been pulsing really hard
Speaker 1: in the South, and the revolutions that happened to give
Speaker 1: people more rights on the Civil rights movement, I mean,
Speaker 1: what a beautiful story story of connection and um, multi
Speaker 1: layers of people banning together, and people don't talk that
Speaker 1: much about that part of it, you know, but that's
Speaker 1: the Southern history. And when we talk about brown in
Speaker 1: the South as recent Indian immigrants, I mean, that's a
Speaker 1: new story to us, because you know, you have to
Speaker 1: also think about the immigration laws, you know, and we
Speaker 1: weren't really allowed to be in this country until the
Speaker 1: fifties when the Chinese people are finally allowed to be
Speaker 1: here and and be norm like quote normal citizens. You know,
Speaker 1: there's there are a lot of forgotten laws and historical
Speaker 1: facts that it is exactly why things are the way
Speaker 1: they are. They're very specific reasons, and it's a matter
Speaker 1: of just like learning about it, you know. I think
Speaker 1: as I've had and have been so humbled by my
Speaker 1: experience because I thought that the South was this one thing,
Speaker 1: So how do we break up the monolithic idea this?
Speaker 1: So I think it's about experience. I think it's about
Speaker 1: understanding the nuances. And I think that's always the answer
Speaker 1: to most questions, is to understand the nuances. It's not
Speaker 1: a black and white like literally, it's not black and white.
Speaker 1: It is a whole many shades of brown and all
Speaker 1: the other colors. Um. I mean what what's uniting maybe
Speaker 1: is agriculture is maybe a way of um of eating
Speaker 1: and of thinking about your neighbor um. Ideally, it's a
Speaker 1: sense of community and it's hopefully a sense of inclusiveness
Speaker 1: really when it comes down to it. I mean, you
Speaker 1: can talk about the word redneck, and that can mean
Speaker 1: a whole lot of different things. I've certainly seen a
Speaker 1: lot of rednecks in Massachusetts, um. And there's some folks
Speaker 1: here that on the surface you might say, oh, that's
Speaker 1: a redneck, but then you start talking to them and
Speaker 1: they're brilliant and talented and kind and open hearted. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's really just a matter of getting into it and
Speaker 1: and not just writing things off because of preconceived notions.
Speaker 1: That's for me, so pivotal for people to understand and
Speaker 1: change the notion. Like I would love if people could
Speaker 1: travel to the South and come to places like Raleigh, Greenville,
Speaker 1: South Carolina, Pigeon Forged, like go and see that, look
Speaker 1: for Dolly Parton and not just go to Charleston in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: which is amazing. But there's all this other stuff available
Speaker 1: to you. I mean, I think there's a place for
Speaker 1: all that kind of travel, but there's an artificial presentation
Speaker 1: of a place and a culture that is sold, and
Speaker 1: it's often really fun and delicious and creative and comfortable
Speaker 1: and luxurious, but then there's just a place for its
Speaker 1: own sake, you know. And actually we talked about this
Speaker 1: with the visitors bureau here and Raleigh, and there's a
Speaker 1: comple caated conversation like how do you market a city
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a baseball stadium or soccer stadium or
Speaker 1: like a big landmark. We're not on a river kind
Speaker 1: of new really in the in the scheme of things,
Speaker 1: we don't have anything that draws people except us. We
Speaker 1: realize at the end of this meeting that the draw
Speaker 1: is a community and those of us who have businesses
Speaker 1: are a part of that. But it's also just like
Speaker 1: the fact that the city embraces that and people come
Speaker 1: all the time, and they come to the restaurant and
Speaker 1: they often say, like, I love Ralli, Like it just
Speaker 1: feels really good here. And I hear that so much,
Speaker 1: and I think that's just because there's an open heart
Speaker 1: here and I think that if you choose to be
Speaker 1: connected to that, it's it's palpable. And I really like
Speaker 1: being intangible, no tagline marketing scheme. You know. I love that,
Speaker 1: Like the idea that there's nothing here just me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful thought. I agree, it's not. I think
Speaker 1: it takes a certain amount of confidence to just say, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's actually our draw, like that's our value. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna find me. Yeah, exactly right. Thanks Jutty, Thank you.
Speaker 1: I love seeing you. Thanks for hanging out. Connect with
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at everywhere Pond, Instagram at Everywhere podcast,
Speaker 1: or on the website at everywhere podcast dot com. I'm
Speaker 1: Daniel Scheffler. I'll be seeing you everywhere For more podcasts
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