Speaker 1: This episode will contain spoilers for very old movies and
Speaker 1: maybe some newer movies, so don't worry, we'll give you
Speaker 1: a heads up. Plus, after our Winter Gothic deep dive,
Speaker 1: I interview illustrator and cartoonist Lee Lai, author of Stone
Speaker 1: Fruit and the upcoming Fantastic graphic novel Fans of the
Speaker 1: Bear Cannon. Hello, my name is Rosy Night, and today
Speaker 1: we're talking about Winter Gothic.
Speaker 2: I'm Carmen thelonng Nick and where the Scone Crans.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where.
Speaker 1: We dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and
Speaker 1: pop culture. We are here iHeart podcasts as always, where
Speaker 1: we are bringing you.
Speaker 3: Three episodes a week plus news.
Speaker 1: In today's episode, we are breaking down another subgenre of
Speaker 1: horror and maybe some other genres as we have begun
Speaker 1: to realize while we dig in Winter Gothic. So we're
Speaker 1: gonna start what is Winter Gothic. We're gonna lay out
Speaker 1: our rules and the movies that we think fit into them.
Speaker 1: Then we're gonna do the scream Queen pics, recommend you
Speaker 1: some great Winter Gothics to watch, and then we're gonna
Speaker 1: ask is Stephen King, the king of this subgenre. But
Speaker 1: first a quick discussion, Colm, and let's begin with you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I thought it'd be great to start this
Speaker 4: conversation by, just like we did with her Sci Fi debate,
Speaker 4: by talking about how we define this subgenre of winter Gothic.
Speaker 4: I'll start with myself. For me, I was thinking about this.
Speaker 4: I'm really excited about this topic. Actually, I've been thinking
Speaker 4: about it all night. But for me, the season winter
Speaker 4: has to feel almost like a character in the movie.
Speaker 5: It has to.
Speaker 4: Feel like it is. I have to imagine, like, can
Speaker 4: I imagine this story taking place in the summer? Could
Speaker 4: I imagine this story taking place in the spring. No,
Speaker 4: So winter becomes an integral part of that storytelling. I
Speaker 4: think that is an important part. And then, of course
Speaker 4: it has to be dark. It has to be dealing
Speaker 4: with dark, depressing themes as we love during the wintertime.
Speaker 3: Definitely.
Speaker 2: What about you, Joel, Yeah, so this is interesting. You
Speaker 2: guys were like, what if we talked about winter Gothic?
Speaker 2: I said, the hell are you talking about? I don't
Speaker 2: know what that means. Yeah, but the first thing I
Speaker 2: thought of was like blood on snow. So then I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, let me be in neerd and get
Speaker 2: my research bag, and it led me to read it exactly.
Speaker 2: That was it. That was like the only place I
Speaker 2: was really talking in depth about what when a God?
Speaker 2: I was like, these girls are too cool for me.
Speaker 2: They're so far ahead of the times. There's not an
Speaker 2: Internet search for it. That's crazy. So when we started
Speaker 2: trying to figure out, like what does a genre mean,
Speaker 2: it was like, well, let me take it back to
Speaker 2: the Gothic elements and like, let me make sure my
Speaker 2: understanding is fully immersed in like what is it to
Speaker 2: be like gothic and genre?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're dealing with themes of death and decay,
Speaker 2: You're dealing with isolation, but also with romance. You're dealing
Speaker 2: with thoughts of.
Speaker 3: The ends of things.
Speaker 2: Right, all of these are very coincide with winter, like
Speaker 2: just the thematic like pagan winter ideals like highly fit
Speaker 2: into the deals of like the Gothic tenants, right, And
Speaker 2: so I was like, oh, and too, if you think
Speaker 2: like Gothic literature tends to lack subtlety, it is very
Speaker 2: on the nose about like it's so awful. So when
Speaker 2: you're leaning into that and you're leaning into something that
Speaker 2: is like very black and white, stark in your face.
Speaker 2: To sort of add winter as a backdrop to that,
Speaker 2: we're talking early nights that last longer. We're talking like
Speaker 2: the cream Christmas of snow with the like madness of
Speaker 2: the city and or blood and or like whatever you
Speaker 2: mixed on top of it is going to really stand
Speaker 2: out visually. And so by then I totally understand like
Speaker 2: why as a culture we started to gravitate towards films
Speaker 2: that highlight this And if you think even like more
Speaker 2: about it, I was like, man, every werewolf movie probably
Speaker 2: fits under the Pretty much ninety percent of werewolf movies
Speaker 2: would be considered a winter Gothic. You've got to Carmen's point,
Speaker 2: winter is practically a character in there. You've got your
Speaker 2: romance and death because werewolves, it's all right there. I
Speaker 2: really like the idea of this genre because it brought
Speaker 2: to mind some of my favorite films, which we'll talk
Speaker 2: about in a minute. But Rose, I'm curious, like when
Speaker 2: do you stumble upon the idea of winter Gothic and
Speaker 2: like what does the genre mean for you?
Speaker 1: I think that as a naming convention, I have found
Speaker 1: the same thing, like relatively new. Honestly, when we were
Speaker 1: talking about it in our group chat, we were kind
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, what does this mean to us?
Speaker 3: Like what movies would this look like. I think it
Speaker 3: works because actually.
Speaker 1: When you go back, this encompasses throughout cinematic history, just
Speaker 1: like hundreds of movies. And it's kind of this idea
Speaker 1: of like the bleak midwinter, the kind of dark evenings
Speaker 1: when things start to look strange and shadows everything.
Speaker 5: I'm dead.
Speaker 1: There's movies going back as everything's dead, right, it's the
Speaker 1: representation this is winter before before the you know, some
Speaker 1: of these movies will end up, you know, a Thirty
Speaker 1: Days of Night or something. At the end you get
Speaker 1: the sunrise. That's your representation of spring. But there are
Speaker 1: some really old movies I saw when I was a
Speaker 1: teenager that I think fit into this, like the there's
Speaker 1: this finish movie called The White reind It's from the
Speaker 1: fifties and that's about like she goes to a shaman
Speaker 1: to like spice up kind of like her appeal as
Speaker 1: a woman, very practical, magic coded, and but ends up
Speaker 1: becoming like a vampire. And it's all set in this
Speaker 1: crazy snow place. Another movie they show all the time
Speaker 1: here that I think is an early example of this
Speaker 1: is the Curse of the Cat People, which is like
Speaker 1: a forties kind of.
Speaker 3: Nah movie long right.
Speaker 1: And get that iconic image of her in the cloak.
Speaker 1: I mean, even like I think one of the most
Speaker 1: famous and this is definitely like a Reddit pic. You'll
Speaker 1: definitely see this in folk horror communities talking about this,
Speaker 1: which I think folk corra is one of my favorite genres,
Speaker 1: and this.
Speaker 3: Is very folk horror coded.
Speaker 1: But the Japanese horror movie Kwi Dan, which is kind
Speaker 1: of this collection of Japanese horror movies from the sixties.
Speaker 1: It's on Criterion. There's some really great examples in there. Also,
Speaker 1: another reason I think this is so connected to the
Speaker 1: horror genre is because if you think a lot about
Speaker 1: old like vampire movies, fearless vampire killer, stuff like that Dracula,
Speaker 1: often when you get to the gothic mansion, it's snowing.
Speaker 1: It's isolating snow. As you said common about it becoming
Speaker 1: a character. The snow is something that adds to the quiet,
Speaker 1: to the isolation, to the loneliness because all you can
Speaker 1: see is this white, blank canvas, and also it numbs
Speaker 1: the sounds it softens that. I think there's this fear
Speaker 1: of winter, of being alone. Maybe it speaks to something
Speaker 1: very feral and old, you know, that fear of what
Speaker 1: is outside. I think that's why you Diesel also kind
Speaker 1: of get tied into like a lot of horror, a
Speaker 1: lot of monster movies, those old troll movies from like
Speaker 1: the Zeros, the Swedish movies I think about, though I
Speaker 1: would not say necessarily those are Gothic, but I do
Speaker 1: think this idea of a of a scary landscape that
Speaker 1: is going to kill you even if you survive the
Speaker 1: bad thing makes these stories way scarier, Like can you
Speaker 1: escape the snow?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, to that point, like winter is an endurance test,
Speaker 2: particularly before things like supermarkets where you just go buy
Speaker 2: your food like you did you preserve and take socca
Speaker 2: and backload and everything goes to crap. Do you have
Speaker 2: the skills to sort of navigate these really difficult terrain
Speaker 2: and long season I think, yeah, we okay, So let's
Speaker 2: let's really bullet point our tenants here. So I think
Speaker 2: the main one in order to apply to being a
Speaker 2: winter Gothic, you need to have Winter as a character.
Speaker 2: I need visuals, I need the sounds of Winter. It
Speaker 2: needs to be an overwhelming force driving the direction of
Speaker 2: the film. Okay, great, then yes, I think to me,
Speaker 2: if we're going gothic death and romance, and they to
Speaker 2: some degree go hand in hand, absolutely, Okay, what else
Speaker 2: do we need for winter Gothic?
Speaker 1: I think for me, definitely that idea of like the
Speaker 1: winter comes and then you are more trapped than you
Speaker 1: are isolation. You know, a lot of times these these
Speaker 1: movies are about isolation.
Speaker 3: They're about the.
Speaker 1: Way that winter stops you from being able to interact,
Speaker 1: They're about they kind of tie into those old historical adventures.
Speaker 3: Too, of like you know, the men exploring the Antarctic
Speaker 3: and dying. You know, I feel like it.
Speaker 1: Taps into a lot of those historical so, like, you know,
Speaker 1: I would say there's an argument that you could make
Speaker 1: that Giamma del Toro's the first act is especially Yeah,
Speaker 1: fits into a winter Gothic right his Frankenstein. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm very interested. I think, Yeah, definitely, Howling Winds. I
Speaker 1: don't think it needs to be a horror because, like
Speaker 1: when I was looking on Reddit, when I was kind
Speaker 1: of looking through these different articles where people have talked
Speaker 1: about Winter movies, I will say I think something like.
Speaker 3: Winter's Bone comes.
Speaker 1: Up a lot, probably a because it's got the name
Speaker 1: Winter in the Time, yeah, but B because of Jennifer
Speaker 1: Lawrence and that performance.
Speaker 3: That is a movie about.
Speaker 1: Being isolated, being alone and having to survive a winter
Speaker 1: where your patriarchal figure has like abandoned you, you know,
Speaker 1: in a space. So I think this kind of notion
Speaker 1: of isolation and winter and how that adds challenges to
Speaker 1: what you're already facing.
Speaker 2: I love it. And then two would we say, if
Speaker 2: this is a dark Knight of the soul type genre,
Speaker 2: is the discovery of self also essential?
Speaker 1: I would say yes, in general, you're going to come
Speaker 1: to a point within these movies where something true is
Speaker 1: discovered about yourself. Now that is not always going to
Speaker 1: be something positive, right we.
Speaker 7: Dive into the pictures, some of min are like bleak
Speaker 7: as out, Like the discovery is like, oh, you're fucking crazy,
Speaker 7: Like this is the craziness is erupted within you and
Speaker 7: this is all you can do.
Speaker 2: And I gives it takes. We're gonna give you the
Speaker 2: coziness of Santa's We're gonna take you to the depths
Speaker 2: of winter. But now before we go to break. We'll
Speaker 2: be right back after these messages and we're back, let's
Speaker 2: talk about some of our picks. We want a round Robinham, Yeah,
Speaker 2: the one, yeah after the other me start. Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna start with my most controversial I thought I had
Speaker 2: while we were while we were talking about what it is,
Speaker 2: and it was an image that was like, what movie
Speaker 2: am I thinking of blood on the snow? It's fucking
Speaker 2: killed Bill. You guys, love and death and equal measure
Speaker 2: connected isolation. Okay, great Winter as a character, not throughout
Speaker 2: the whole movie, maybe just to the seed, but she's
Speaker 2: there and she's making things chalired.
Speaker 4: By you know, a Japanese film.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was actually that that Lady Snowblood was actually gonna
Speaker 1: be one of my picks because so much of it
Speaker 1: is taken from that.
Speaker 3: So I think you'll I think if a.
Speaker 1: Movie is so has such an iconic sequence like that
Speaker 1: sequence with Lucy in, I think you can make that argument. Now, look,
Speaker 1: is it is some of kill Bill set and like
Speaker 1: you know California and Sonny.
Speaker 3: Yes, but I love that you bought this outrageous pick.
Speaker 1: And I do think especially because it's based on Lady snowblood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was kind of blown away. I love that
Speaker 2: you're both like, yeah, we'll let this ride. Thank you
Speaker 2: for indulging the craziness. Carmen, what's your first pick?
Speaker 4: I okay, my first pick is one that came to
Speaker 4: me this morning and I was so excited, right, I
Speaker 4: remembered it. But Mothman Prophecies is.
Speaker 3: I love this. This is a great pick.
Speaker 1: Because look, not necessarily a lot of snow in the
Speaker 1: way that we think, but very like missed the rainy
Speaker 1: depressing as correct.
Speaker 4: Yes, and his wife dies at the beginning of the movie.
Speaker 4: She gets a brain tumor, and so it's kind of
Speaker 4: a The movie is about him trying to figure out
Speaker 4: what entity his wife was obsessed with before she died
Speaker 4: that he thinks had taken her, and it's this entity
Speaker 4: called the moth Man. And yeah, it has one of
Speaker 4: the creepiest scenes in all of cinema history in my opinion,
Speaker 4: which is the hotel scene where he gets a phone call.
Speaker 4: Richard Gear gets a phone call from the injured cold
Speaker 4: character and that voice when I hear that, it sends
Speaker 4: chillsning fine, I watched it when I was a kid
Speaker 4: in the winter. I think and for me, it's like
Speaker 4: a very wintery definitely lots of themes of winter, and
Speaker 4: it will it'll make you obsessed with the moth Man
Speaker 4: and just really start to think, like, here's the moth
Speaker 4: Man real?
Speaker 1: I love again, back to that folkloric folk horror. I
Speaker 1: think there's something about winter that sends us back. We
Speaker 1: are going back to pagan traditions anyway, with like the
Speaker 1: Christmas tree and stuff like that, and the celebration of
Speaker 1: like sitting around the fire.
Speaker 3: So maybe there's something about winter.
Speaker 1: The your logue this kind of there's something about it
Speaker 1: that sends us back to those kind of feral times
Speaker 1: and those feral kind of human behaviors. So that's why
Speaker 1: I am in a pick for my first pick one
Speaker 1: of the best most underrated movies directed by a woman
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: This is ravenous. This movie is a.
Speaker 1: Absolutely crazy horror western from nineteen ninety nine directed by
Speaker 1: Antonio Bird and it is basically set in the California
Speaker 1: Sierra Nevada in the eighteen forty and it is about
Speaker 1: a group of soldiers who are out an isolated ice
Speaker 1: outpost when they come across cannibals and it's kind of
Speaker 1: very interesting because while it is based on real life
Speaker 1: and like it's inspired by the Donna Party, and it's
Speaker 1: inspired by a real Colorado cannibal that they called Alfred Packer,
Speaker 1: who survived after eating people becoming snowbound.
Speaker 3: It is actually and I think.
Speaker 1: This is the reason why it's had such a long
Speaker 1: history and has become such a cult classic. It's really
Speaker 1: like a movie critiquing American imperialism and the ideas of
Speaker 1: like manifest destiny and the ideas of like consumption.
Speaker 3: And it's really good.
Speaker 1: It's really scary, and it is also just like really again,
Speaker 1: feels like that Donna train kind of you're exploring and
Speaker 1: you become trapped that existential fear of the nature of
Speaker 1: the earth and winter and all this kind of horror
Speaker 1: that you have to survive already, and then you add
Speaker 1: in this extra thing, which is this cannibalism aspect, And yeah,
Speaker 1: such a good movie, and the ending.
Speaker 3: Is crazy, and yeah, it's it's just really good.
Speaker 1: It's got Guy Peace, it's got David Arquette, it's got
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Jones, it's a lot of Neil mcdonnaugh.
Speaker 3: It's it's really good.
Speaker 1: It's a low key kind of like it was an
Speaker 1: indie mooe. It didn't make a ton of money. It
Speaker 1: cost twelve million, made two million, But it's so good
Speaker 1: and I think that definitely earns its place in the
Speaker 1: winter gothic space and leans into that kind of like crazy.
Speaker 1: And also, I'm going again, this is a bleak one,
Speaker 1: so I would say you two did some kind of
Speaker 1: funnish ones that are still spooky. So that's my first
Speaker 1: true bleak take Joelle, what is your second?
Speaker 2: Well to bring us to a slightly less bleak but
Speaker 2: still dark place. It's winter gothic, guys, We're not going
Speaker 2: to leave the darkness. It's thirty Days of Night now listen.
Speaker 8: Is it.
Speaker 2: Performance Josh Harten has ever given?
Speaker 5: No, it's not for that.
Speaker 2: Please go see Penny Dreadful. Is it the best vampire
Speaker 2: movie of all time? It's it's not only Lovers Left
Speaker 2: Alive exists, and we can't take that exactly. But it
Speaker 2: has some of the coolest looking vampires. They have flam
Speaker 2: dress so regular they feel like Russian mob. You're like,
Speaker 2: I would not fuck with these guys. And on top
Speaker 2: of that, just like this is an absolute just vibes movie.
Speaker 2: It's like it's a little bit slasher movie. If you
Speaker 2: haven't seen it, it's a little bit slashery. You do
Speaker 2: have a final girl. You've got police dudes who are
Speaker 2: sort of forced into different types of hector roles, which
Speaker 2: I find really interesting. But mostly I'm here for these
Speaker 2: damn cool looking vampires and they're damn cool killing methods.
Speaker 2: I think Three Days of Night is one of the
Speaker 2: most fun horror movies of all time.
Speaker 3: Just great show.
Speaker 2: It's so much fun to show people, just from a
Speaker 2: conceptual standpoint of Like, you're up in Alaska, it's going
Speaker 2: to be dark for a full month, which sunset the
Speaker 2: last sunset. It's a horrifying premise. And then you have
Speaker 2: a killer who is more expertise than the dark, more
Speaker 2: expertise in the cold. You can't truly beat them. You
Speaker 2: can only hope to outrun them. Oh it's thrilling and fun. Again.
Speaker 2: I just cannot emphasize enough how much the acting is
Speaker 2: not great. Just don't that's not why you're here. You came,
Speaker 2: it's for visual it's mint.
Speaker 1: Era, it's mid Ara Josh and now he's back in
Speaker 1: his bag, like this is post you know, faculty and a.
Speaker 2: Lot is happening in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot was happening also as well. Like you said, Joelle,
Speaker 1: I mean this is based on a comic book. It's
Speaker 1: set over thirty days. It's a really great simple conceit,
Speaker 1: which I also think a lot of these movies have.
Speaker 1: Or it's basically like what if you were in an
Speaker 1: already scary, unsettling situation. You're a new coop in town,
Speaker 1: it's about to be thirty days of night, Like, how
Speaker 1: do you protect your town? Is everyone just going to
Speaker 1: be chilling? Oh wait, there's vampires here, because of course
Speaker 1: where else would they live? So I love that pick.
Speaker 1: And again, guys, yeah, great, great comic book, and they
Speaker 1: I think they have a new series coming out as
Speaker 1: well as part of the IDW Dark Range.
Speaker 3: Common What is your second.
Speaker 4: I think my second pick is probably, out of all
Speaker 4: the ones we've talked about to support, the one that
Speaker 4: probably fits our category the most, and that is Crimson Peak.
Speaker 5: It is definitely Gothic.
Speaker 4: It is definitely winter it's wintery, and it is definitely
Speaker 4: dealing with the dark, you know, subjects and the romance
Speaker 4: and all of that. Absolutely love it. I personally, I
Speaker 4: was literally I haven't watched this movie in a few years,
Speaker 4: but I have seen it like four times and it
Speaker 4: is is one of my favorite Garamel del Tora movies.
Speaker 4: I can't tell you what the movie's about, but I
Speaker 4: do know that it's a.
Speaker 1: Very visually which we offer. I would say feeling that
Speaker 1: Gothic movies.
Speaker 4: Visually stunning movie and your eyes are eating in every
Speaker 4: freaking shot of the movie.
Speaker 3: Amazing.
Speaker 4: You know, costume acting from Doug Jones in that horrifying
Speaker 4: red ghost, like just some of the best like costuming
Speaker 4: and makeup, and and just like set designs in Winter Gothic.
Speaker 2: You know what else this movie has that I think
Speaker 2: goes well in the gothic category of our Winter Gothic
Speaker 2: It as men who long they want, they want to
Speaker 2: love them, They're not sure of themselves. It's damn sexy.
Speaker 1: There's no certainty there, there's no fire in the yearning.
Speaker 1: This is cool gothic yearning where you feel like can
Speaker 1: you never be able to achieve what you need?
Speaker 3: I love this pitcommon. I think if there is a
Speaker 3: Winter Gothic movie, it is likely this.
Speaker 1: If there is a singular one, I think it has
Speaker 1: a lot of the hallmarks of what we want from
Speaker 1: Gothic storytelling, like it's very turn of the Screw.
Speaker 3: You are a woman, you turn up at this new house.
Speaker 1: Oh but you're married, so that's very blue Beard, that's
Speaker 1: very Rebecca. And suddenly your husband has secrets in the
Speaker 1: house is wanted, like, it's such a the house is
Speaker 1: so winter. How is it to say, let's add that.
Speaker 1: Let's add that retroactively. I do think that some of
Speaker 1: the best horror movies like this are set in one
Speaker 1: location or have one primary scary location.
Speaker 3: You appear in.
Speaker 1: Even even in kill Bill, the winter gothic of it
Speaker 1: all comes when she goes to Lucy Lou. You know,
Speaker 1: I would say, so my next pick does fit in
Speaker 1: really well with that. Another incredibly bleak one. This is
Speaker 1: a very controversial movie, guys, because it is essentially like
Speaker 1: a gaslight in.
Speaker 3: Horror movie and it is about evil kids.
Speaker 1: But I think it's legit one of the scariest best
Speaker 1: winter horror movies ever made. I think it's so bleak
Speaker 1: that a lot of people couldn't take it.
Speaker 3: It has a crazy cast.
Speaker 1: Riley Keog Jada Martel as the kid, Leah mceu as
Speaker 1: the other kid, Alice She a Silverstone by the way
Speaker 1: and hermitage and it is.
Speaker 3: A so this is the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she is the mom, Alicia Silverstone is the mom,
Speaker 1: but Riley Keog is.
Speaker 3: The step mom, the evil and horrible.
Speaker 1: A horrible tragedy happens early on, and we and the
Speaker 1: kids decide that. The dad decides he's going to take
Speaker 1: the kids to this lodge out in the winter, and
Speaker 1: played by Richard Armitage really great career performance where you
Speaker 1: just can't really tell whether you can trust him or not.
Speaker 1: He sends her there, the young stepmother with his two kids,
Speaker 1: and strange things start to happen. She starts to have
Speaker 1: flashbacks to a cult she was saved from. There, starts
Speaker 1: to appear to be supernatural elements happening in the house.
Speaker 1: Things start going really really badly and getting very bleak,
Speaker 1: and as the story unfolds, you realize there is kind
Speaker 1: of an ulterior motive that is driving this, but it's
Speaker 1: all centered around Riley Kyog in this new place in
Speaker 1: like you can't see anything but snow, basically being terrorized
Speaker 1: by these two kids, but she can't trust that that
Speaker 1: is what's happening. It's so bleak and so good, and
Speaker 1: the ending is horrific. It's the kind of this is
Speaker 1: from twenty nineteen. This is the kind of ending that
Speaker 1: I just feel like you don't really get anymore. This
Speaker 1: is by the guys who also it's Veronica Franz and
Speaker 1: Severin Fiala.
Speaker 3: They made that movie that I believe was called like
Speaker 3: Good Year.
Speaker 5: I love that movie.
Speaker 3: It was a foreign.
Speaker 1: Movie about the two kids with the mom who had
Speaker 1: had the plastic surgery. This was an American movie that
Speaker 1: the American language movie The Paradem made.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's really good, guys.
Speaker 1: It's so bleak, but it's it's really really good. And
Speaker 1: I think it's pure winter Gothic. There is no it's relentless,
Speaker 1: there's no hope, there's nothing, nothing good is coming out
Speaker 1: of this winter.
Speaker 3: This is the kind of winter that will drive you crazy.
Speaker 1: And that is about, you know, taking you from your
Speaker 1: experiences as a young person and how if you do
Speaker 1: not deal with them. This is the kind of winter
Speaker 1: that can like crack you open. It's it's so good.
Speaker 2: It's so good, guys, got so good from this very deep,
Speaker 2: rich text, uh dark movie. I'm going to give you
Speaker 2: the Disney version of.
Speaker 3: A Yes we need this, let's end with something a
Speaker 3: little cheerier.
Speaker 2: Timmy be made one final good movie.
Speaker 3: Many as well.
Speaker 2: It's the epitome of a winter gothic or a detective.
Speaker 2: Let's travel to a town far of state, New York
Speaker 2: to discover who has been chopping off the heads of
Speaker 2: the locals. It's sleepy, hollow, problematic. Johnny Depp, I'm so
Speaker 2: sorry to have to ride the Johnny an iconic, possibly
Speaker 2: too young to be sorry off as a Johnny Depp
Speaker 2: at this point in time, Christy listen, is it a
Speaker 2: problematic favor?
Speaker 1: It is?
Speaker 2: It was ninety nine. I was ten years old, and
Speaker 2: I was like, this is what love is. Look at
Speaker 2: these two people falling for each other. I was really, really, really.
Speaker 1: Into like boundly important movie for me as a kid
Speaker 1: first save time.
Speaker 2: It truly was as somebody who was very obsessed with
Speaker 2: death and death practices at the time, as somebody who
Speaker 2: was really intrigued by just like woods and old horror stories,
Speaker 2: like it's really firing on all angles. It is perhaps
Speaker 2: one of the most beautifully shot films of all time too.
Speaker 2: I mean, when you talk about the contrast of blood
Speaker 2: on snow, when you're talking about your general costume design,
Speaker 2: like I was completely blown away. The cinematographers Emmanuel Lebetski,
Speaker 2: who if you're not like a film person to lave
Speaker 2: probably a name that you're like not as familiar with.
Speaker 2: But his catalog is deep. Guys like he did.
Speaker 6: Hold on.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I've tried to pull it up, so I don't fuck
Speaker 2: it up. Here go the Revenue, Birdman, Tree of Life, Gravity,
Speaker 2: Children of Men, those guys, okay, Like it goes on forever,
Speaker 2: and so if you want to really luxuriate just in
Speaker 2: his visuals, you can do that. If you have like
Speaker 2: a fun twist, you can get that. If you want
Speaker 2: beautiful costumes, you've got that. The acting is great, listen,
Speaker 2: it's probably again. I do think this is Timberton's last
Speaker 2: great film. This could potentially be Johnny Depp's last great
Speaker 2: film too, if you're really for the like when he's
Speaker 2: stretching himself and trying to act and not really just
Speaker 2: falling into the Jack Spherau of it all. He's a
Speaker 2: different person here and it looks so good. I just
Speaker 2: love this film. I can almost quote everybody, and it's wonderful.
Speaker 3: Christopher Walken is in this movie. The funnest craziest roles?
Speaker 2: How did we forget?
Speaker 3: I love this pic.
Speaker 1: I think it's so it was so vibrant and different
Speaker 1: for people our age and even look, I'm from England,
Speaker 1: but the story of Igobo Crane and the Headless Wantsman
Speaker 1: that does culturally make it to England. I loved watching
Speaker 1: the Disney version of that when I was a kid
Speaker 1: on the you know, Mister Toad kind of double bill
Speaker 1: that they did back in the day. And yeah, great,
Speaker 1: great pick Joelle Calm and WA's your what's your final win?
Speaker 4: I want to say that movie Sleepy Hollow is made
Speaker 4: Christopher Walkin a very scary, scary person. To me, I
Speaker 4: was like, Christopher Walking is scary, sharp teeth and weird eyes. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 4: but no, yeah, my honorable mention before I get to
Speaker 4: my final pick. But honorable mention is the Christmas scene
Speaker 4: for Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, which I.
Speaker 3: Oh, great pick. Southern Gothics, I absolutely love hate.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry to recommend a Kevin Spacey movie, but watch
Speaker 4: it for the lady Chabblee. Okay, she plays herself, a
Speaker 4: trans woman plays hers, a black trans woman plays herself
Speaker 4: In Savannah Georgia. Come on, I mean, you can't.
Speaker 5: You can't beat that.
Speaker 4: Then my actual all time favorite is it's my favorite
Speaker 4: Christmas movie. It is also a winter Gothic. It is
Speaker 4: Batman Returns, and it's another Tim Burton.
Speaker 3: It is a really good uh my guy was like
Speaker 3: twenty eight at that point. He hadn't done any.
Speaker 1: Folks I know of by that point, like Batman one
Speaker 1: and Batman two, like the best movies ever made in
Speaker 1: my opinion, Yeah, untouchable. What is it about that movie
Speaker 1: common that makes it such a perfect Winter Gothic?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it's of course set around the Christmas season,
Speaker 4: but it's about the bleakness of Christmas, I think, And
Speaker 4: it's about the kind of like loneliness and depressing nature
Speaker 4: of Christmas that comes when people who don't have a
Speaker 4: family or loved ones, you know, have Christmas time.
Speaker 3: And for me, I.
Speaker 4: Mean, it's just it's got. It's got the imagery, it's
Speaker 4: got the penguin, it's got. I mean, it's the tragedy
Speaker 4: tragic they push in the between Carat Woman and Batman
Speaker 4: and that and that amazing Susie and the Banshees song
Speaker 4: when they finally meet each other face to face on
Speaker 4: the dance floor, I realize.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also love that pick because I do think
Speaker 1: that I've written about extensively. I do think it's just
Speaker 1: one of the most inventive, unique Christmas movies. I think
Speaker 1: it's really creepy, it's really fun. If I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 1: I think this was a gremlin style release where it
Speaker 1: came out and why so it didn't necessarily immediately hit
Speaker 1: as a huge successful Christmas movie, but obviously we do
Speaker 1: see it that way now. I love your pull on
Speaker 1: the loneliness too, because I do think a lot of
Speaker 1: this movie is about the loneliness of Bruce Wayne in
Speaker 1: his big mansion by himself, where he can't share himself
Speaker 1: with anyone, where he can't share his trump.
Speaker 3: The penguins Selena, who is.
Speaker 1: Like an abbused by her boss, you know, and then
Speaker 1: has an unbelievable experience that you know, nobody she can't
Speaker 1: tell anybody about, which is very analogous to like being
Speaker 1: assaulted by your boss or someone higher up by than you.
Speaker 3: And then you know, it has that gothic.
Speaker 1: Tragedy of they find each other, but they can't come together.
Speaker 4: Because yeah, their enemies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that movie, great, Paul.
Speaker 1: My final poll, I'm also going to go for something
Speaker 1: a little bit less bleak, a little bit more in
Speaker 1: the fun Realm, which is we talked about this recently.
Speaker 1: It was one of Jason's The first movie was one
Speaker 1: of Jason's Rex when we were.
Speaker 3: Doing like, uh, queer horror.
Speaker 1: But the third Ginger Snaps movie Ginger Snaps Back at
Speaker 1: the beginning two thousand and four Ginger Snaps Back, which
Speaker 1: is kind of funny because it's like a pun because
Speaker 1: it's Catherine, Isabel Emily Perkins again, but they are now
Speaker 1: in nineteenth century Canada and they are the ancestors of
Speaker 1: their own characters, and it explains about the it's a
Speaker 1: winter set movie.
Speaker 3: They explain about kind.
Speaker 6: Of the the legend of this curse, and also this
Speaker 6: idea of like one of the sisters have to kill
Speaker 6: a boy so they don't kill each other, which I
Speaker 6: really love.
Speaker 1: There's also some very interesting Native American like North American
Speaker 1: kind of cre representation of trying to kind of bring
Speaker 1: a little bit of that lore in and a little
Speaker 1: bit of the understanding and folkloric kind of explanation behind
Speaker 1: were wolfs. So yeah, that one again actually ends with
Speaker 1: a good ending, very feminist, very fun, and yeah, just
Speaker 1: like just good, good, snowy horror. And it is still
Speaker 1: in that Gothic tradition because we're back in that time
Speaker 1: where it was about survival, about the way that you
Speaker 1: could endure a winter season and what happens when as
Speaker 1: a woman there are obstacles to that, but also you
Speaker 1: may find power in some of those obstacles. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that one. Thank you Joellen Carmen for joining
Speaker 1: me on this chilly adventure through winter Gothic And after
Speaker 1: this break my interview with the incredible Knee Live. Yeah, Hi, Lee,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us on Xtra Vision.
Speaker 3: How's it going.
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure. It's nice to meet you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate you being here.
Speaker 1: I was such a huge fan of Stone Fruit and
Speaker 1: I really wanted to have you on to kind of
Speaker 1: get people in the mindset, get them ready for Canon.
Speaker 1: So could you talk a little bit about Cannon, which
Speaker 1: is your newest graphic novel.
Speaker 6: Sure.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 5: Canon is probably a little bit longer than.
Speaker 8: Stone Fruit, and it's set in Montreal, which is where
Speaker 8: I've lived for the past ten years nearly, which makes
Speaker 8: me feel quite old. And it follows the story of
Speaker 8: a kind of late twenties millennial queer Chinese Canadian woman
Speaker 8: called Lucy who's nicknamed Canon.
Speaker 5: And the story starts out.
Speaker 8: In a very hot Montreal heat wave summer where Lucy
Speaker 8: has trashed the restaurant that she works in, like absolutely
Speaker 8: smashed to pieces and it then so the story is
Speaker 8: the three months prior to that incident, kind of leading
Speaker 8: us through what motivated her to do that. As as
Speaker 8: quite an unflappable and stoic person.
Speaker 1: Normally, yeah, I feel like a very relatable book as
Speaker 1: somebody who has worked for a long time in restaurants
Speaker 1: and kitchens. Oh that was my life, but like when
Speaker 1: I was fifteen to when I was twenty seven.
Speaker 3: It was just all shops and comic shops and bars
Speaker 3: and restaurants.
Speaker 1: So yeah, this one is wonderful and it is available
Speaker 1: to pre order now.
Speaker 3: Guys.
Speaker 1: I also can't recommend enough these incredible stone Fruit which
Speaker 1: I love. That was how I got into your work.
Speaker 1: What was it like for you your journey to becoming
Speaker 1: a cartoonist. Was it just something you'd always done or
Speaker 1: was it something that you felt like you were always
Speaker 1: going to do from when you were a kid, did
Speaker 1: littlely think she was going to do that.
Speaker 8: Literally wanted to make children's books And I made a
Speaker 8: lot of really pervy, rude, ridiculous children's books on computer
Speaker 8: paper when I was a kid. I think I think
Speaker 8: my parents still have a few of those, and liked
Speaker 8: to bring them out to bluff about them every now
Speaker 8: and then, exactly the parties and then, like you know,
Speaker 8: I was very classically of the like nineties Australian children.
Speaker 8: I read a lot of British books, so and like
Speaker 8: you know, the Brits at that time were allowed to
Speaker 8: publish just the most foul shit, like.
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know if that's still the case.
Speaker 5: I think it's not quiet.
Speaker 3: I wish I have to say.
Speaker 1: I think it is because one of our producers common
Speaker 1: when she joins, she's going to think this is so funny.
Speaker 1: She's obsessed with this fact because she's like, how come
Speaker 1: books like it's like it was like the Man who
Speaker 1: Ate Poe, Like everything is like the most wild. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's been thinking about it a lot recently. So I'm
Speaker 1: glad you born as someone who grew up in London.
Speaker 5: Yes filthy, yes, filthy.
Speaker 8: And I think there's also a real trend towards that
Speaker 8: in Australian publishing at the time. I don't know if
Speaker 8: he never really made it out of the continent, but
Speaker 8: Paul Jennings a really big, really celebrated author of my generation.
Speaker 3: Oh, I was a huge Paul Jennings fan. He did
Speaker 3: twist it right.
Speaker 1: It was around the twist that was a big TV
Speaker 1: show in the UK too.
Speaker 8: I don't think the current marketing world would accept. Like,
Speaker 8: you know, there's one story where one of the main characters,
Speaker 8: as a teenage boy, swallows a fish accidentally that makes
Speaker 8: his penis whirl really fast, and so he suddenly becomes
Speaker 8: an excellent swimmer. Yeah, and I just don't know if
Speaker 8: that would work as a story now. But I found
Speaker 8: that extremely inspiring when I was a kid. So I
Speaker 8: made really wretched stories in that vein. And then I
Speaker 8: went to art school, like I drew all my childhood,
Speaker 8: enjoyed it very much, found it very a wonderful form
Speaker 8: of escapism, etc.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of kids do.
Speaker 8: And then, you know, tried to reach the end of
Speaker 8: high school and thought, well, I'm not really going to
Speaker 8: do anything else except keep drawing. I had a brief
Speaker 8: moment of thinking, maybe I wanted to do film because
Speaker 8: all visual storytelling is wonderful and fascinating, but it involved
Speaker 8: too much business skills. I think the production of film
Speaker 8: requires lots of.
Speaker 3: Other people too.
Speaker 8: It group dynamics and financial literacy in ways that I
Speaker 8: don't find either of those things particularly interesting to me.
Speaker 8: And so I went to art school and had a
Speaker 8: terrible time trying to be groomed into you know, the
Speaker 8: kind of it's like commercial artists that I just am not.
Speaker 1: Yes, they love I didn't go to college, but I've
Speaker 1: heard from all my friends and other people who make
Speaker 1: comments like us like yeah, they'll really they want you
Speaker 1: to be a commercial artist more than anything else.
Speaker 3: They want you to be a graphic artist.
Speaker 1: That's just like you got to make the money, Lee,
Speaker 1: you got to make the money.
Speaker 8: Yeah, And it was you know, it's very serious, you know,
Speaker 8: Like I think the kind of training I got was
Speaker 8: how to be academic and justify you know, the bronze
Speaker 8: casting of a state cleaning against a wall.
Speaker 5: That was the vibe, which you.
Speaker 8: Know is perfectly valid for other types of creators and
Speaker 8: certainly not for me. The real education I got as
Speaker 8: a cartoonist was that I just by luck knew in Melbourne,
Speaker 8: where I was living at the time, a bunch of
Speaker 8: cartoonists around my age, a bit older, and we all
Speaker 8: just hung out often and that was you know, the Hey,
Speaker 8: this is like two thousand and twelve, which was a
Speaker 8: real renaissance moment in Melbourne, and I think all over
Speaker 8: the world for zine culture and so independent publishing in
Speaker 8: the form of you know, photocopiers was a really big currency.
Speaker 8: Would all just trade and collaborate on zines. And I
Speaker 8: think I got my first kind of skills cut just
Speaker 8: practicing with other people who are also practicing and making
Speaker 8: little anthologies. And I think over the next like twelve
Speaker 8: to fifteen years, just kind of slowly up the stakes
Speaker 8: publishing in journals and then trying to get into more
Speaker 8: journals and doing little web comics and just learning on
Speaker 8: the fly. Like now there you can do a BFA
Speaker 8: now and study comics, which is very cool and very
Speaker 8: strange to me.
Speaker 3: Yes, very different from when we were growing for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I love that because also I would say,
Speaker 1: like that is basically we say this all the time
Speaker 1: on the podcast, but like the number one thing you
Speaker 1: have to do is just make it, yes, And the
Speaker 1: best thing is just make it with your friends, like
Speaker 1: make some scenes, make and that's how you start expanding
Speaker 1: out into like, well, can I tell a whole sequential story?
Speaker 1: Like everybody wants to do a three hundred page graphic
Speaker 1: novel first, because who doesn't want to do that?
Speaker 3: But actually making zines and.
Speaker 1: Learning how to create with other people and learning how
Speaker 1: to produce comics and do the production and stuff is
Speaker 1: such an important journey.
Speaker 3: So I'm glad you're able to find out.
Speaker 8: I think every time someone who's just embarking on the
Speaker 8: first graphic novel project or the first time they've ever
Speaker 8: made a comic, I just try and stress how much
Speaker 8: it's important to make bad work a lot until it becomes.
Speaker 3: Yes, lots of bad, lots of bad work is very important.
Speaker 1: But now, just before before we finish this lovely stocking
Speaker 1: stuff a chat, I would like to hear some of
Speaker 1: your recommendations that you will would recommend for people to
Speaker 1: buy this year when it comes to books and comics
Speaker 1: and things you're excited about.
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
Speaker 8: I mean I'll start with the comics because I guess
Speaker 8: it's on theme. I am lucky enough to be published
Speaker 8: with Drawn and Quarterly.
Speaker 5: These days, Oh, I love them.
Speaker 8: I get to read a lot of John and Quarterly
Speaker 8: books as a result, and so the ones that I
Speaker 8: have really enjoyed that more or less have been coming
Speaker 8: out at the same time as Cannon the Weight by
Speaker 8: Melissa Mendez's. It's a huge book. It took her ten
Speaker 8: years to make, I think, and it shows like it's
Speaker 8: just it's a it's a real magnum opus. But it
Speaker 8: reads so fast. I read it in one sitting, which
Speaker 8: I think is often the greatest compliment that you can
Speaker 8: give a cartoonist is that you just sit there and
Speaker 8: become completely spell around. It's got incredible visual flow.
Speaker 5: It really will.
Speaker 8: It's a real sucker punch in the heart, though it's
Speaker 8: so sad. And the other one also that's very sad.
Speaker 8: I think I'm drawn towards these kinds of books. Is
Speaker 8: Black Cohosh by Eagle Valiant BROSI. I loved that book.
Speaker 8: I also read it in one sitting, and then you know,
Speaker 8: I can. I mean Michael Deforge. He's a Toronto cartoonist
Speaker 8: who is just an absolute power house of productivity. He
Speaker 8: puts out a book every year and I still don't
Speaker 8: understand how he sleeps and eats and things. But the
Speaker 8: last book I read of his Familiar Face, and I
Speaker 8: loved it. It's creepy and it's also very touching. I
Speaker 8: think he has this way of doing what maybe counts
Speaker 8: as sci fi.
Speaker 1: That yeah, abstract sci fi, Like yeah, he's one of
Speaker 1: the best work under cartoonists for sure, like such a
Speaker 1: crazy cool And I love that you're at DNQ because
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a great fit for you. I
Speaker 1: feel like they are putting out the most subversive, transgressive,
Speaker 1: cool shit, and they're also finding old like eighties female
Speaker 1: Japanese mangakas to archive and stuff. Like they're doing the
Speaker 1: work I think comics needs. So I'm glad that you're
Speaker 1: enjoying being there. In the books they're putting out any
Speaker 1: more good res.
Speaker 8: Yes, this one is a fanographics one actually, which was
Speaker 8: my previous publisher, and it's a very dear friend of mine.
Speaker 8: It's putting out a kind of retrospective collection of the
Speaker 8: older cartoons. And they were one of the Melbourne cartoonists
Speaker 8: that you know, I practiced with closely for you know,
Speaker 8: the last ten to fifteen years, and so I've learnt
Speaker 8: so much from them.
Speaker 5: I've shared a studio with them.
Speaker 8: Their name is Tommy Parrish and the book that's coming
Speaker 8: out now is called The Past is a Grotesque Animal,
Speaker 8: which I think is a fabulous title. And I feel
Speaker 8: very nostalgic about these comics in this collection, particularly because
Speaker 8: we've talked about so many of them, and I feel
Speaker 8: like they're kind of, you know, in my morbid Love
Speaker 8: of Horrible Things. There's lots of really sticky, heavy, juicy
Speaker 8: content love writing about sex and death and angst.
Speaker 3: I that very fad graphics of them.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, that's what we go there for, right,
Speaker 1: We come to this place for depression.
Speaker 5: In the best way.
Speaker 3: Late any final recommendations before I let you go.
Speaker 5: I'll rattle the matter as quickly as I can.
Speaker 8: These are non comics and they're wonderful. As someone who
Speaker 8: has a short attention span, I just blasted through them,
Speaker 8: so I've got personal attention. Role play by Felix Child Bradley.
Speaker 8: It's a it's a local author for me in Montreal,
Speaker 8: The Queer. They are one of the best writers of
Speaker 8: like clever weird fiction, what you could call it magical surrealism,
Speaker 8: just a collection of short stories that have all some
Speaker 8: of the most clever, charming, strange stories I've read in
Speaker 8: a long time. And but a Honey Pig Bread by
Speaker 8: Francesca E Kuiarci, who is also a Montreal author. These days,
Speaker 8: we've claimed her and that book is just pure, like
Speaker 8: deep and touching and profound, but also just pure hedonism.
Speaker 8: There are such incredible descriptions of food and sex in
Speaker 8: this book and me too, and she loves food more
Speaker 8: than most people I know and is an incredible cook,
Speaker 8: and I you know, selfishly I recommend both of those
Speaker 8: two authors because I admire them greatly, but also I'm
Speaker 8: planning on doing collaborative short stories with both of them
Speaker 8: in the next little while.
Speaker 1: I also did pitch this to everyone, like whether it's
Speaker 1: Julia at dan Q or some of the other authors.
Speaker 1: I basically was like, just tell them they can come
Speaker 1: and show out with their friends. So you achieved this perfectly.
Speaker 1: It was wonderful to have you. We please feel free
Speaker 1: to come back anytime and talk more about your cool
Speaker 1: work or just stuff you're excited about. And yeah, guys,
Speaker 1: you can pre order Canon right now from Drawn and
Speaker 1: Quarterly by Lee Lai.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Lee for joining us.
Speaker 5: Thanks It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Lee for joining me to talk canon,
Speaker 1: and thanks to our super producer, Scream Queens, Common and
Speaker 1: Joel for sharing their favorite winter gothic films as we
Speaker 1: head into New Yen.
Speaker 9: Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young
Speaker 9: and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Joel, Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 9: Our supervising producer is Abuza part.
Speaker 1: Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Johnson and Baywack.
Speaker 9: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 9: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Speaker 1: Heidi our discord moderator