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Speaker 1: This episode will contain spoilers for very old movies and

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Speaker 1: maybe some newer movies, so don't worry, we'll give you

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Speaker 1: a heads up. Plus, after our Winter Gothic deep dive,

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Speaker 1: I interview illustrator and cartoonist Lee Lai, author of Stone

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Speaker 1: Fruit and the upcoming Fantastic graphic novel Fans of the

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Speaker 1: Bear Cannon. Hello, my name is Rosy Night, and today

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Speaker 1: we're talking about Winter Gothic.

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Speaker 2: I'm Carmen thelonng Nick and where the Scone Crans.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where.

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Speaker 1: We dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and

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Speaker 1: pop culture. We are here iHeart podcasts as always, where

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Speaker 1: we are bringing you.

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Speaker 3: Three episodes a week plus news.

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Speaker 1: In today's episode, we are breaking down another subgenre of

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Speaker 1: horror and maybe some other genres as we have begun

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Speaker 1: to realize while we dig in Winter Gothic. So we're

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Speaker 1: gonna start what is Winter Gothic. We're gonna lay out

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Speaker 1: our rules and the movies that we think fit into them.

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Speaker 1: Then we're gonna do the scream Queen pics, recommend you

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Speaker 1: some great Winter Gothics to watch, and then we're gonna

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Speaker 1: ask is Stephen King, the king of this subgenre. But

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Speaker 1: first a quick discussion, Colm, and let's begin with you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I thought it'd be great to start this

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Speaker 4: conversation by, just like we did with her Sci Fi debate,

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Speaker 4: by talking about how we define this subgenre of winter Gothic.

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Speaker 4: I'll start with myself. For me, I was thinking about this.

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Speaker 4: I'm really excited about this topic. Actually, I've been thinking

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Speaker 4: about it all night. But for me, the season winter

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Speaker 4: has to feel almost like a character in the movie.

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Speaker 5: It has to.

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Speaker 4: Feel like it is. I have to imagine, like, can

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Speaker 4: I imagine this story taking place in the summer? Could

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Speaker 4: I imagine this story taking place in the spring. No,

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Speaker 4: So winter becomes an integral part of that storytelling. I

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Speaker 4: think that is an important part. And then, of course

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Speaker 4: it has to be dark. It has to be dealing

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Speaker 4: with dark, depressing themes as we love during the wintertime.

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Speaker 3: Definitely.

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Speaker 2: What about you, Joel, Yeah, so this is interesting. You

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Speaker 2: guys were like, what if we talked about winter Gothic?

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Speaker 2: I said, the hell are you talking about? I don't

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Speaker 2: know what that means. Yeah, but the first thing I

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Speaker 2: thought of was like blood on snow. So then I

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Speaker 2: was like, Okay, let me be in neerd and get

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Speaker 2: my research bag, and it led me to read it exactly.

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Speaker 2: That was it. That was like the only place I

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Speaker 2: was really talking in depth about what when a God?

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Speaker 2: I was like, these girls are too cool for me.

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Speaker 2: They're so far ahead of the times. There's not an

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Speaker 2: Internet search for it. That's crazy. So when we started

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out, like what does a genre mean,

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Speaker 2: it was like, well, let me take it back to

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Speaker 2: the Gothic elements and like, let me make sure my

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Speaker 2: understanding is fully immersed in like what is it to

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Speaker 2: be like gothic and genre?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you're dealing with themes of death and decay,

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Speaker 2: You're dealing with isolation, but also with romance. You're dealing

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Speaker 2: with thoughts of.

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Speaker 3: The ends of things.

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Speaker 2: Right, all of these are very coincide with winter, like

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Speaker 2: just the thematic like pagan winter ideals like highly fit

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Speaker 2: into the deals of like the Gothic tenants, right, And

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Speaker 2: so I was like, oh, and too, if you think

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Speaker 2: like Gothic literature tends to lack subtlety, it is very

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Speaker 2: on the nose about like it's so awful. So when

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Speaker 2: you're leaning into that and you're leaning into something that

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Speaker 2: is like very black and white, stark in your face.

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Speaker 2: To sort of add winter as a backdrop to that,

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Speaker 2: we're talking early nights that last longer. We're talking like

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Speaker 2: the cream Christmas of snow with the like madness of

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Speaker 2: the city and or blood and or like whatever you

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Speaker 2: mixed on top of it is going to really stand

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Speaker 2: out visually. And so by then I totally understand like

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Speaker 2: why as a culture we started to gravitate towards films

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Speaker 2: that highlight this And if you think even like more

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Speaker 2: about it, I was like, man, every werewolf movie probably

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Speaker 2: fits under the Pretty much ninety percent of werewolf movies

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Speaker 2: would be considered a winter Gothic. You've got to Carmen's point,

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Speaker 2: winter is practically a character in there. You've got your

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Speaker 2: romance and death because werewolves, it's all right there. I

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Speaker 2: really like the idea of this genre because it brought

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Speaker 2: to mind some of my favorite films, which we'll talk

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Speaker 2: about in a minute. But Rose, I'm curious, like when

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Speaker 2: do you stumble upon the idea of winter Gothic and

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Speaker 2: like what does the genre mean for you?

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Speaker 1: I think that as a naming convention, I have found

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Speaker 1: the same thing, like relatively new. Honestly, when we were

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Speaker 1: talking about it in our group chat, we were kind

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Speaker 1: of like, yeah, what does this mean to us?

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Speaker 3: Like what movies would this look like. I think it

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Speaker 3: works because actually.

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Speaker 1: When you go back, this encompasses throughout cinematic history, just

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Speaker 1: like hundreds of movies. And it's kind of this idea

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Speaker 1: of like the bleak midwinter, the kind of dark evenings

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Speaker 1: when things start to look strange and shadows everything.

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Speaker 5: I'm dead.

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Speaker 1: There's movies going back as everything's dead, right, it's the

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Speaker 1: representation this is winter before before the you know, some

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Speaker 1: of these movies will end up, you know, a Thirty

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Speaker 1: Days of Night or something. At the end you get

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Speaker 1: the sunrise. That's your representation of spring. But there are

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Speaker 1: some really old movies I saw when I was a

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Speaker 1: teenager that I think fit into this, like the there's

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Speaker 1: this finish movie called The White reind It's from the

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Speaker 1: fifties and that's about like she goes to a shaman

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Speaker 1: to like spice up kind of like her appeal as

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Speaker 1: a woman, very practical, magic coded, and but ends up

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Speaker 1: becoming like a vampire. And it's all set in this

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Speaker 1: crazy snow place. Another movie they show all the time

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Speaker 1: here that I think is an early example of this

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Speaker 1: is the Curse of the Cat People, which is like

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Speaker 1: a forties kind of.

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Speaker 3: Nah movie long right.

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Speaker 1: And get that iconic image of her in the cloak.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even like I think one of the most

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Speaker 1: famous and this is definitely like a Reddit pic. You'll

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Speaker 1: definitely see this in folk horror communities talking about this,

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Speaker 1: which I think folk corra is one of my favorite genres,

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Speaker 1: and this.

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Speaker 3: Is very folk horror coded.

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Speaker 1: But the Japanese horror movie Kwi Dan, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of this collection of Japanese horror movies from the sixties.

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Speaker 1: It's on Criterion. There's some really great examples in there. Also,

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Speaker 1: another reason I think this is so connected to the

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Speaker 1: horror genre is because if you think a lot about

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Speaker 1: old like vampire movies, fearless vampire killer, stuff like that Dracula,

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Speaker 1: often when you get to the gothic mansion, it's snowing.

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Speaker 1: It's isolating snow. As you said common about it becoming

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Speaker 1: a character. The snow is something that adds to the quiet,

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Speaker 1: to the isolation, to the loneliness because all you can

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Speaker 1: see is this white, blank canvas, and also it numbs

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Speaker 1: the sounds it softens that. I think there's this fear

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Speaker 1: of winter, of being alone. Maybe it speaks to something

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Speaker 1: very feral and old, you know, that fear of what

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Speaker 1: is outside. I think that's why you Diesel also kind

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Speaker 1: of get tied into like a lot of horror, a

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Speaker 1: lot of monster movies, those old troll movies from like

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Speaker 1: the Zeros, the Swedish movies I think about, though I

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Speaker 1: would not say necessarily those are Gothic, but I do

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Speaker 1: think this idea of a of a scary landscape that

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Speaker 1: is going to kill you even if you survive the

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Speaker 1: bad thing makes these stories way scarier, Like can you

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Speaker 1: escape the snow?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, to that point, like winter is an endurance test,

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Speaker 2: particularly before things like supermarkets where you just go buy

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Speaker 2: your food like you did you preserve and take socca

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Speaker 2: and backload and everything goes to crap. Do you have

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Speaker 2: the skills to sort of navigate these really difficult terrain

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Speaker 2: and long season I think, yeah, we okay, So let's

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Speaker 2: let's really bullet point our tenants here. So I think

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Speaker 2: the main one in order to apply to being a

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Speaker 2: winter Gothic, you need to have Winter as a character.

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Speaker 2: I need visuals, I need the sounds of Winter. It

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Speaker 2: needs to be an overwhelming force driving the direction of

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Speaker 2: the film. Okay, great, then yes, I think to me,

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Speaker 2: if we're going gothic death and romance, and they to

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Speaker 2: some degree go hand in hand, absolutely, Okay, what else

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Speaker 2: do we need for winter Gothic?

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Speaker 1: I think for me, definitely that idea of like the

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Speaker 1: winter comes and then you are more trapped than you

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Speaker 1: are isolation. You know, a lot of times these these

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Speaker 1: movies are about isolation.

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Speaker 3: They're about the.

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Speaker 1: Way that winter stops you from being able to interact,

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Speaker 1: They're about they kind of tie into those old historical adventures.

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Speaker 3: Too, of like you know, the men exploring the Antarctic

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Speaker 3: and dying. You know, I feel like it.

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Speaker 1: Taps into a lot of those historical so, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I would say there's an argument that you could make

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Speaker 1: that Giamma del Toro's the first act is especially Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fits into a winter Gothic right his Frankenstein. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm very interested. I think, Yeah, definitely, Howling Winds. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it needs to be a horror because, like

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Speaker 1: when I was looking on Reddit, when I was kind

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Speaker 1: of looking through these different articles where people have talked

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Speaker 1: about Winter movies, I will say I think something like.

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Speaker 3: Winter's Bone comes.

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Speaker 1: Up a lot, probably a because it's got the name

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Speaker 1: Winter in the Time, yeah, but B because of Jennifer

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Speaker 1: Lawrence and that performance.

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Speaker 3: That is a movie about.

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Speaker 1: Being isolated, being alone and having to survive a winter

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Speaker 1: where your patriarchal figure has like abandoned you, you know,

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Speaker 1: in a space. So I think this kind of notion

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Speaker 1: of isolation and winter and how that adds challenges to

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Speaker 1: what you're already facing.

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Speaker 2: I love it. And then two would we say, if

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Speaker 2: this is a dark Knight of the soul type genre,

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Speaker 2: is the discovery of self also essential?

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Speaker 1: I would say yes, in general, you're going to come

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Speaker 1: to a point within these movies where something true is

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Speaker 1: discovered about yourself. Now that is not always going to

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Speaker 1: be something positive, right we.

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Speaker 7: Dive into the pictures, some of min are like bleak

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Speaker 7: as out, Like the discovery is like, oh, you're fucking crazy,

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Speaker 7: Like this is the craziness is erupted within you and

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Speaker 7: this is all you can do.

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Speaker 2: And I gives it takes. We're gonna give you the

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Speaker 2: coziness of Santa's We're gonna take you to the depths

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Speaker 2: of winter. But now before we go to break. We'll

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Speaker 2: be right back after these messages and we're back, let's

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Speaker 2: talk about some of our picks. We want a round Robinham, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the one, yeah after the other me start. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna start with my most controversial I thought I had

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Speaker 2: while we were while we were talking about what it is,

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Speaker 2: and it was an image that was like, what movie

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Speaker 2: am I thinking of blood on the snow? It's fucking

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Speaker 2: killed Bill. You guys, love and death and equal measure

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Speaker 2: connected isolation. Okay, great Winter as a character, not throughout

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Speaker 2: the whole movie, maybe just to the seed, but she's

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Speaker 2: there and she's making things chalired.

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Speaker 4: By you know, a Japanese film.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was actually that that Lady Snowblood was actually gonna

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Speaker 1: be one of my picks because so much of it

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Speaker 1: is taken from that.

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Speaker 3: So I think you'll I think if a.

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Speaker 1: Movie is so has such an iconic sequence like that

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Speaker 1: sequence with Lucy in, I think you can make that argument. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: is it is some of kill Bill set and like

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Speaker 1: you know California and Sonny.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but I love that you bought this outrageous pick.

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Speaker 1: And I do think especially because it's based on Lady snowblood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was kind of blown away. I love that

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Speaker 2: you're both like, yeah, we'll let this ride. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for indulging the craziness. Carmen, what's your first pick?

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Speaker 4: I okay, my first pick is one that came to

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Speaker 4: me this morning and I was so excited, right, I

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Speaker 4: remembered it. But Mothman Prophecies is.

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Speaker 3: I love this. This is a great pick.

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Speaker 1: Because look, not necessarily a lot of snow in the

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Speaker 1: way that we think, but very like missed the rainy

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Speaker 1: depressing as correct.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and his wife dies at the beginning of the movie.

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Speaker 4: She gets a brain tumor, and so it's kind of

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Speaker 4: a The movie is about him trying to figure out

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Speaker 4: what entity his wife was obsessed with before she died

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Speaker 4: that he thinks had taken her, and it's this entity

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Speaker 4: called the moth Man. And yeah, it has one of

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Speaker 4: the creepiest scenes in all of cinema history in my opinion,

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Speaker 4: which is the hotel scene where he gets a phone call.

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Speaker 4: Richard Gear gets a phone call from the injured cold

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Speaker 4: character and that voice when I hear that, it sends

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Speaker 4: chillsning fine, I watched it when I was a kid

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Speaker 4: in the winter. I think and for me, it's like

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Speaker 4: a very wintery definitely lots of themes of winter, and

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Speaker 4: it will it'll make you obsessed with the moth Man

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Speaker 4: and just really start to think, like, here's the moth

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Speaker 4: Man real?

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Speaker 1: I love again, back to that folkloric folk horror. I

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Speaker 1: think there's something about winter that sends us back. We

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Speaker 1: are going back to pagan traditions anyway, with like the

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Speaker 1: Christmas tree and stuff like that, and the celebration of

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Speaker 1: like sitting around the fire.

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Speaker 3: So maybe there's something about winter.

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Speaker 1: The your logue this kind of there's something about it

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Speaker 1: that sends us back to those kind of feral times

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Speaker 1: and those feral kind of human behaviors. So that's why

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Speaker 1: I am in a pick for my first pick one

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Speaker 1: of the best most underrated movies directed by a woman

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 3: This is ravenous. This movie is a.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely crazy horror western from nineteen ninety nine directed by

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Speaker 1: Antonio Bird and it is basically set in the California

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Speaker 1: Sierra Nevada in the eighteen forty and it is about

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Speaker 1: a group of soldiers who are out an isolated ice

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Speaker 1: outpost when they come across cannibals and it's kind of

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Speaker 1: very interesting because while it is based on real life

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Speaker 1: and like it's inspired by the Donna Party, and it's

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Speaker 1: inspired by a real Colorado cannibal that they called Alfred Packer,

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Speaker 1: who survived after eating people becoming snowbound.

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Speaker 3: It is actually and I think.

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Speaker 1: This is the reason why it's had such a long

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Speaker 1: history and has become such a cult classic. It's really

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Speaker 1: like a movie critiquing American imperialism and the ideas of

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Speaker 1: like manifest destiny and the ideas of like consumption.

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Speaker 3: And it's really good.

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Speaker 1: It's really scary, and it is also just like really again,

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Speaker 1: feels like that Donna train kind of you're exploring and

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Speaker 1: you become trapped that existential fear of the nature of

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Speaker 1: the earth and winter and all this kind of horror

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Speaker 1: that you have to survive already, and then you add

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Speaker 1: in this extra thing, which is this cannibalism aspect, And yeah,

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Speaker 1: such a good movie, and the ending.

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Speaker 3: Is crazy, and yeah, it's it's just really good.

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Speaker 1: It's got Guy Peace, it's got David Arquette, it's got

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Jones, it's a lot of Neil mcdonnaugh.

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Speaker 3: It's it's really good.

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Speaker 1: It's a low key kind of like it was an

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Speaker 1: indie mooe. It didn't make a ton of money. It

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Speaker 1: cost twelve million, made two million, But it's so good

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Speaker 1: and I think that definitely earns its place in the

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Speaker 1: winter gothic space and leans into that kind of like crazy.

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Speaker 1: And also, I'm going again, this is a bleak one,

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Speaker 1: so I would say you two did some kind of

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Speaker 1: funnish ones that are still spooky. So that's my first

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Speaker 1: true bleak take Joelle, what is your second?

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Speaker 2: Well to bring us to a slightly less bleak but

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Speaker 2: still dark place. It's winter gothic, guys, We're not going

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Speaker 2: to leave the darkness. It's thirty Days of Night now listen.

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Speaker 8: Is it.

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Speaker 2: Performance Josh Harten has ever given?

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Speaker 5: No, it's not for that.

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Speaker 2: Please go see Penny Dreadful. Is it the best vampire

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Speaker 2: movie of all time? It's it's not only Lovers Left

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Speaker 2: Alive exists, and we can't take that exactly. But it

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00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 2: has some of the coolest looking vampires. They have flam

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Speaker 2: dress so regular they feel like Russian mob. You're like,

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Speaker 2: I would not fuck with these guys. And on top

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Speaker 2: of that, just like this is an absolute just vibes movie.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's a little bit slasher movie. If you

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Speaker 2: haven't seen it, it's a little bit slashery. You do

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Speaker 2: have a final girl. You've got police dudes who are

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Speaker 2: sort of forced into different types of hector roles, which

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Speaker 2: I find really interesting. But mostly I'm here for these

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00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 2: damn cool looking vampires and they're damn cool killing methods.

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Speaker 2: I think Three Days of Night is one of the

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Speaker 2: most fun horror movies of all time.

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Speaker 3: Just great show.

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00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 2: It's so much fun to show people, just from a

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Speaker 2: conceptual standpoint of Like, you're up in Alaska, it's going

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Speaker 2: to be dark for a full month, which sunset the

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Speaker 2: last sunset. It's a horrifying premise. And then you have

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Speaker 2: a killer who is more expertise than the dark, more

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Speaker 2: expertise in the cold. You can't truly beat them. You

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00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 2: can only hope to outrun them. Oh it's thrilling and fun. Again.

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Speaker 2: I just cannot emphasize enough how much the acting is

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Speaker 2: not great. Just don't that's not why you're here. You came,

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Speaker 2: it's for visual it's mint.

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Speaker 1: Era, it's mid Ara Josh and now he's back in

332
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 1: his bag, like this is post you know, faculty and a.

333
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,080
Speaker 2: Lot is happening in the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot was happening also as well. Like you said, Joelle,

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Speaker 1: I mean this is based on a comic book. It's

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Speaker 1: set over thirty days. It's a really great simple conceit,

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Speaker 1: which I also think a lot of these movies have.

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Speaker 1: Or it's basically like what if you were in an

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00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: already scary, unsettling situation. You're a new coop in town,

340
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 1: it's about to be thirty days of night, Like, how

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Speaker 1: do you protect your town? Is everyone just going to

342
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 1: be chilling? Oh wait, there's vampires here, because of course

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Speaker 1: where else would they live? So I love that pick.

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Speaker 1: And again, guys, yeah, great, great comic book, and they

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Speaker 1: I think they have a new series coming out as

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00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 1: well as part of the IDW Dark Range.

347
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Speaker 3: Common What is your second.

348
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Speaker 4: I think my second pick is probably, out of all

349
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Speaker 4: the ones we've talked about to support, the one that

350
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 4: probably fits our category the most, and that is Crimson Peak.

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Speaker 5: It is definitely Gothic.

352
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Speaker 4: It is definitely winter it's wintery, and it is definitely

353
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Speaker 4: dealing with the dark, you know, subjects and the romance

354
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 4: and all of that. Absolutely love it. I personally, I

355
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 4: was literally I haven't watched this movie in a few years,

356
00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 4: but I have seen it like four times and it

357
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 4: is is one of my favorite Garamel del Tora movies.

358
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,719
Speaker 4: I can't tell you what the movie's about, but I

359
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 4: do know that it's a.

360
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Speaker 1: Very visually which we offer. I would say feeling that

361
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 1: Gothic movies.

362
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 4: Visually stunning movie and your eyes are eating in every

363
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 4: freaking shot of the movie.

364
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 3: Amazing.

365
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 4: You know, costume acting from Doug Jones in that horrifying

366
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 4: red ghost, like just some of the best like costuming

367
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 4: and makeup, and and just like set designs in Winter Gothic.

368
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Speaker 2: You know what else this movie has that I think

369
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 2: goes well in the gothic category of our Winter Gothic

370
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 2: It as men who long they want, they want to

371
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 2: love them, They're not sure of themselves. It's damn sexy.

372
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: There's no certainty there, there's no fire in the yearning.

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00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 1: This is cool gothic yearning where you feel like can

374
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,640
Speaker 1: you never be able to achieve what you need?

375
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 3: I love this pitcommon. I think if there is a

376
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 3: Winter Gothic movie, it is likely this.

377
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: If there is a singular one, I think it has

378
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the hallmarks of what we want from

379
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: Gothic storytelling, like it's very turn of the Screw.

380
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 3: You are a woman, you turn up at this new house.

381
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,120
Speaker 1: Oh but you're married, so that's very blue Beard, that's

382
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: very Rebecca. And suddenly your husband has secrets in the

383
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: house is wanted, like, it's such a the house is

384
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: so winter. How is it to say, let's add that.

385
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 1: Let's add that retroactively. I do think that some of

386
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 1: the best horror movies like this are set in one

387
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 1: location or have one primary scary location.

388
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 3: You appear in.

389
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: Even even in kill Bill, the winter gothic of it

390
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: all comes when she goes to Lucy Lou. You know,

391
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 1: I would say, so my next pick does fit in

392
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: really well with that. Another incredibly bleak one. This is

393
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 1: a very controversial movie, guys, because it is essentially like

394
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: a gaslight in.

395
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 3: Horror movie and it is about evil kids.

396
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: But I think it's legit one of the scariest best

397
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: winter horror movies ever made. I think it's so bleak

398
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: that a lot of people couldn't take it.

399
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 3: It has a crazy cast.

400
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,239
Speaker 1: Riley Keog Jada Martel as the kid, Leah mceu as

401
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: the other kid, Alice She a Silverstone by the way

402
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: and hermitage and it is.

403
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 3: A so this is the story.

404
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, she is the mom, Alicia Silverstone is the mom,

405
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: but Riley Keog is.

406
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 3: The step mom, the evil and horrible.

407
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: A horrible tragedy happens early on, and we and the

408
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: kids decide that. The dad decides he's going to take

409
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: the kids to this lodge out in the winter, and

410
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 1: played by Richard Armitage really great career performance where you

411
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,959
Speaker 1: just can't really tell whether you can trust him or not.

412
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: He sends her there, the young stepmother with his two kids,

413
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: and strange things start to happen. She starts to have

414
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: flashbacks to a cult she was saved from. There, starts

415
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 1: to appear to be supernatural elements happening in the house.

416
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: Things start going really really badly and getting very bleak,

417
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: and as the story unfolds, you realize there is kind

418
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: of an ulterior motive that is driving this, but it's

419
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: all centered around Riley Kyog in this new place in

420
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 1: like you can't see anything but snow, basically being terrorized

421
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: by these two kids, but she can't trust that that

422
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: is what's happening. It's so bleak and so good, and

423
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 1: the ending is horrific. It's the kind of this is

424
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: from twenty nineteen. This is the kind of ending that

425
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 1: I just feel like you don't really get anymore. This

426
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: is by the guys who also it's Veronica Franz and

427
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: Severin Fiala.

428
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 3: They made that movie that I believe was called like

429
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: Good Year.

430
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 5: I love that movie.

431
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 3: It was a foreign.

432
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: Movie about the two kids with the mom who had

433
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: had the plastic surgery. This was an American movie that

434
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: the American language movie The Paradem made.

435
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's really good, guys.

436
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: It's so bleak, but it's it's really really good. And

437
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: I think it's pure winter Gothic. There is no it's relentless,

438
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: there's no hope, there's nothing, nothing good is coming out

439
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: of this winter.

440
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: This is the kind of winter that will drive you crazy.

441
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: And that is about, you know, taking you from your

442
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: experiences as a young person and how if you do

443
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: not deal with them. This is the kind of winter

444
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: that can like crack you open. It's it's so good.

445
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 2: It's so good, guys, got so good from this very deep,

446
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: rich text, uh dark movie. I'm going to give you

447
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: the Disney version of.

448
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 3: A Yes we need this, let's end with something a

449
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 3: little cheerier.

450
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 2: Timmy be made one final good movie.

451
00:24:59,400 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 3: Many as well.

452
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: It's the epitome of a winter gothic or a detective.

453
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 2: Let's travel to a town far of state, New York

454
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: to discover who has been chopping off the heads of

455
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: the locals. It's sleepy, hollow, problematic. Johnny Depp, I'm so

456
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: sorry to have to ride the Johnny an iconic, possibly

457
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: too young to be sorry off as a Johnny Depp

458
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: at this point in time, Christy listen, is it a

459
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: problematic favor?

460
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: It is?

461
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: It was ninety nine. I was ten years old, and

462
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: I was like, this is what love is. Look at

463
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 2: these two people falling for each other. I was really, really, really.

464
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: Into like boundly important movie for me as a kid

465
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: first save time.

466
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: It truly was as somebody who was very obsessed with

467
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: death and death practices at the time, as somebody who

468
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: was really intrigued by just like woods and old horror stories,

469
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: like it's really firing on all angles. It is perhaps

470
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: one of the most beautifully shot films of all time too.

471
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 2: I mean, when you talk about the contrast of blood

472
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: on snow, when you're talking about your general costume design,

473
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: like I was completely blown away. The cinematographers Emmanuel Lebetski,

474
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: who if you're not like a film person to lave

475
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: probably a name that you're like not as familiar with.

476
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 2: But his catalog is deep. Guys like he did.

477
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 6: Hold on.

478
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

479
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: I've tried to pull it up, so I don't fuck

480
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: it up. Here go the Revenue, Birdman, Tree of Life, Gravity,

481
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: Children of Men, those guys, okay, Like it goes on forever,

482
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: and so if you want to really luxuriate just in

483
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 2: his visuals, you can do that. If you have like

484
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,479
Speaker 2: a fun twist, you can get that. If you want

485
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: beautiful costumes, you've got that. The acting is great, listen,

486
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: it's probably again. I do think this is Timberton's last

487
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: great film. This could potentially be Johnny Depp's last great

488
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 2: film too, if you're really for the like when he's

489
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: stretching himself and trying to act and not really just

490
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: falling into the Jack Spherau of it all. He's a

491
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: different person here and it looks so good. I just

492
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: love this film. I can almost quote everybody, and it's wonderful.

493
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 3: Christopher Walken is in this movie. The funnest craziest roles?

494
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: How did we forget?

495
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: I love this pic.

496
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: I think it's so it was so vibrant and different

497
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: for people our age and even look, I'm from England,

498
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: but the story of Igobo Crane and the Headless Wantsman

499
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: that does culturally make it to England. I loved watching

500
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: the Disney version of that when I was a kid

501
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: on the you know, Mister Toad kind of double bill

502
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: that they did back in the day. And yeah, great,

503
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: great pick Joelle Calm and WA's your what's your final win?

504
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 4: I want to say that movie Sleepy Hollow is made

505
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 4: Christopher Walkin a very scary, scary person. To me, I

506
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 4: was like, Christopher Walking is scary, sharp teeth and weird eyes. Okay, yeah,

507
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 4: but no, yeah, my honorable mention before I get to

508
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 4: my final pick. But honorable mention is the Christmas scene

509
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 4: for Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, which I.

510
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 3: Oh, great pick. Southern Gothics, I absolutely love hate.

511
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 4: I'm sorry to recommend a Kevin Spacey movie, but watch

512
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 4: it for the lady Chabblee. Okay, she plays herself, a

513
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 4: trans woman plays hers, a black trans woman plays herself

514
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 4: In Savannah Georgia. Come on, I mean, you can't.

515
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 5: You can't beat that.

516
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 4: Then my actual all time favorite is it's my favorite

517
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 4: Christmas movie. It is also a winter Gothic. It is

518
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 4: Batman Returns, and it's another Tim Burton.

519
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: It is a really good uh my guy was like

520
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 3: twenty eight at that point. He hadn't done any.

521
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: Folks I know of by that point, like Batman one

522
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: and Batman two, like the best movies ever made in

523
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: my opinion, Yeah, untouchable. What is it about that movie

524
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 1: common that makes it such a perfect Winter Gothic?

525
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it's of course set around the Christmas season,

526
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 4: but it's about the bleakness of Christmas, I think, And

527
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 4: it's about the kind of like loneliness and depressing nature

528
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 4: of Christmas that comes when people who don't have a

529
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 4: family or loved ones, you know, have Christmas time.

530
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: And for me, I.

531
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: Mean, it's just it's got. It's got the imagery, it's

532
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 4: got the penguin, it's got. I mean, it's the tragedy

533
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: tragic they push in the between Carat Woman and Batman

534
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 4: and that and that amazing Susie and the Banshees song

535
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 4: when they finally meet each other face to face on

536
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 4: the dance floor, I realize.

537
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also love that pick because I do think

538
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: that I've written about extensively. I do think it's just

539
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: one of the most inventive, unique Christmas movies. I think

540
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: it's really creepy, it's really fun. If I'm not mistaken,

541
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: I think this was a gremlin style release where it

542
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: came out and why so it didn't necessarily immediately hit

543
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: as a huge successful Christmas movie, but obviously we do

544
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: see it that way now. I love your pull on

545
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: the loneliness too, because I do think a lot of

546
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: this movie is about the loneliness of Bruce Wayne in

547
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: his big mansion by himself, where he can't share himself

548
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: with anyone, where he can't share his trump.

549
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: The penguins Selena, who is.

550
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: Like an abbused by her boss, you know, and then

551
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: has an unbelievable experience that you know, nobody she can't

552
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: tell anybody about, which is very analogous to like being

553
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: assaulted by your boss or someone higher up by than you.

554
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: And then you know, it has that gothic.

555
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: Tragedy of they find each other, but they can't come together.

556
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 4: Because yeah, their enemies.

557
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that movie, great, Paul.

558
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: My final poll, I'm also going to go for something

559
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: a little bit less bleak, a little bit more in

560
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: the fun Realm, which is we talked about this recently.

561
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,239
Speaker 1: It was one of Jason's The first movie was one

562
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: of Jason's Rex when we were.

563
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: Doing like, uh, queer horror.

564
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: But the third Ginger Snaps movie Ginger Snaps Back at

565
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: the beginning two thousand and four Ginger Snaps Back, which

566
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: is kind of funny because it's like a pun because

567
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: it's Catherine, Isabel Emily Perkins again, but they are now

568
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: in nineteenth century Canada and they are the ancestors of

569
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: their own characters, and it explains about the it's a

570
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: winter set movie.

571
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 3: They explain about kind.

572
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 6: Of the the legend of this curse, and also this

573
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 6: idea of like one of the sisters have to kill

574
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 6: a boy so they don't kill each other, which I

575
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 6: really love.

576
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: There's also some very interesting Native American like North American

577
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: kind of cre representation of trying to kind of bring

578
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: a little bit of that lore in and a little

579
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: bit of the understanding and folkloric kind of explanation behind

580
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: were wolfs. So yeah, that one again actually ends with

581
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: a good ending, very feminist, very fun, and yeah, just

582
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: like just good, good, snowy horror. And it is still

583
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: in that Gothic tradition because we're back in that time

584
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: where it was about survival, about the way that you

585
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: could endure a winter season and what happens when as

586
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: a woman there are obstacles to that, but also you

587
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: may find power in some of those obstacles. So yeah,

588
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: I love that one. Thank you Joellen Carmen for joining

589
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: me on this chilly adventure through winter Gothic And after

590
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: this break my interview with the incredible Knee Live. Yeah, Hi, Lee,

591
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us on Xtra Vision.

592
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 3: How's it going.

593
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure. It's nice to meet you.

594
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate you being here.

595
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: I was such a huge fan of Stone Fruit and

596
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: I really wanted to have you on to kind of

597
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: get people in the mindset, get them ready for Canon.

598
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: So could you talk a little bit about Cannon, which

599
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: is your newest graphic novel.

600
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 6: Sure.

601
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: So.

602
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 5: Canon is probably a little bit longer than.

603
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 8: Stone Fruit, and it's set in Montreal, which is where

604
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 8: I've lived for the past ten years nearly, which makes

605
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 8: me feel quite old. And it follows the story of

606
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 8: a kind of late twenties millennial queer Chinese Canadian woman

607
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 8: called Lucy who's nicknamed Canon.

608
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 5: And the story starts out.

609
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 8: In a very hot Montreal heat wave summer where Lucy

610
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 8: has trashed the restaurant that she works in, like absolutely

611
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 8: smashed to pieces and it then so the story is

612
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 8: the three months prior to that incident, kind of leading

613
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 8: us through what motivated her to do that. As as

614
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 8: quite an unflappable and stoic person.

615
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: Normally, yeah, I feel like a very relatable book as

616
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: somebody who has worked for a long time in restaurants

617
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: and kitchens. Oh that was my life, but like when

618
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: I was fifteen to when I was twenty seven.

619
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: It was just all shops and comic shops and bars

620
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: and restaurants.

621
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, this one is wonderful and it is available

622
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: to pre order now.

623
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 3: Guys.

624
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: I also can't recommend enough these incredible stone Fruit which

625
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: I love. That was how I got into your work.

626
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: What was it like for you your journey to becoming

627
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: a cartoonist. Was it just something you'd always done or

628
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: was it something that you felt like you were always

629
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: going to do from when you were a kid, did

630
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: littlely think she was going to do that.

631
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 8: Literally wanted to make children's books And I made a

632
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 8: lot of really pervy, rude, ridiculous children's books on computer

633
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 8: paper when I was a kid. I think I think

634
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 8: my parents still have a few of those, and liked

635
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 8: to bring them out to bluff about them every now

636
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 8: and then, exactly the parties and then, like you know,

637
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 8: I was very classically of the like nineties Australian children.

638
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 8: I read a lot of British books, so and like

639
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 8: you know, the Brits at that time were allowed to

640
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 8: publish just the most foul shit, like.

641
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know if that's still the case.

642
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 5: I think it's not quiet.

643
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 3: I wish I have to say.

644
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: I think it is because one of our producers common

645
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: when she joins, she's going to think this is so funny.

646
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: She's obsessed with this fact because she's like, how come

647
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: books like it's like it was like the Man who

648
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: Ate Poe, Like everything is like the most wild. Yeah,

649
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: she's been thinking about it a lot recently. So I'm

650
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: glad you born as someone who grew up in London.

651
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 5: Yes filthy, yes, filthy.

652
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 8: And I think there's also a real trend towards that

653
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 8: in Australian publishing at the time. I don't know if

654
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 8: he never really made it out of the continent, but

655
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 8: Paul Jennings a really big, really celebrated author of my generation.

656
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 3: Oh, I was a huge Paul Jennings fan. He did

657
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: twist it right.

658
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: It was around the twist that was a big TV

659
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 1: show in the UK too.

660
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 8: I don't think the current marketing world would accept. Like,

661
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 8: you know, there's one story where one of the main characters,

662
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 8: as a teenage boy, swallows a fish accidentally that makes

663
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 8: his penis whirl really fast, and so he suddenly becomes

664
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 8: an excellent swimmer. Yeah, and I just don't know if

665
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 8: that would work as a story now. But I found

666
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 8: that extremely inspiring when I was a kid. So I

667
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 8: made really wretched stories in that vein. And then I

668
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 8: went to art school, like I drew all my childhood,

669
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 8: enjoyed it very much, found it very a wonderful form

670
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 8: of escapism, etc.

671
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 5: There's a lot of kids do.

672
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 8: And then, you know, tried to reach the end of

673
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 8: high school and thought, well, I'm not really going to

674
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 8: do anything else except keep drawing. I had a brief

675
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 8: moment of thinking, maybe I wanted to do film because

676
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 8: all visual storytelling is wonderful and fascinating, but it involved

677
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 8: too much business skills. I think the production of film

678
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 8: requires lots of.

679
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: Other people too.

680
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 8: It group dynamics and financial literacy in ways that I

681
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 8: don't find either of those things particularly interesting to me.

682
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 8: And so I went to art school and had a

683
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 8: terrible time trying to be groomed into you know, the

684
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 8: kind of it's like commercial artists that I just am not.

685
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: Yes, they love I didn't go to college, but I've

686
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: heard from all my friends and other people who make

687
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: comments like us like yeah, they'll really they want you

688
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: to be a commercial artist more than anything else.

689
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 3: They want you to be a graphic artist.

690
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: That's just like you got to make the money, Lee,

691
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: you got to make the money.

692
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 8: Yeah, And it was you know, it's very serious, you know,

693
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 8: Like I think the kind of training I got was

694
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 8: how to be academic and justify you know, the bronze

695
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 8: casting of a state cleaning against a wall.

696
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 5: That was the vibe, which you.

697
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 8: Know is perfectly valid for other types of creators and

698
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 8: certainly not for me. The real education I got as

699
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 8: a cartoonist was that I just by luck knew in Melbourne,

700
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 8: where I was living at the time, a bunch of

701
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 8: cartoonists around my age, a bit older, and we all

702
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 8: just hung out often and that was you know, the Hey,

703
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 8: this is like two thousand and twelve, which was a

704
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 8: real renaissance moment in Melbourne, and I think all over

705
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 8: the world for zine culture and so independent publishing in

706
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 8: the form of you know, photocopiers was a really big currency.

707
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 8: Would all just trade and collaborate on zines. And I

708
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 8: think I got my first kind of skills cut just

709
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 8: practicing with other people who are also practicing and making

710
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 8: little anthologies. And I think over the next like twelve

711
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 8: to fifteen years, just kind of slowly up the stakes

712
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 8: publishing in journals and then trying to get into more

713
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 8: journals and doing little web comics and just learning on

714
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 8: the fly. Like now there you can do a BFA

715
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 8: now and study comics, which is very cool and very

716
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 8: strange to me.

717
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: Yes, very different from when we were growing for sure.

718
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I love that because also I would say,

719
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: like that is basically we say this all the time

720
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: on the podcast, but like the number one thing you

721
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: have to do is just make it, yes, And the

722
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: best thing is just make it with your friends, like

723
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: make some scenes, make and that's how you start expanding

724
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: out into like, well, can I tell a whole sequential story?

725
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: Like everybody wants to do a three hundred page graphic

726
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: novel first, because who doesn't want to do that?

727
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 3: But actually making zines and.

728
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: Learning how to create with other people and learning how

729
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: to produce comics and do the production and stuff is

730
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: such an important journey.

731
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 3: So I'm glad you're able to find out.

732
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 8: I think every time someone who's just embarking on the

733
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 8: first graphic novel project or the first time they've ever

734
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,959
Speaker 8: made a comic, I just try and stress how much

735
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 8: it's important to make bad work a lot until it becomes.

736
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 3: Yes, lots of bad, lots of bad work is very important.

737
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: But now, just before before we finish this lovely stocking

738
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: stuff a chat, I would like to hear some of

739
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: your recommendations that you will would recommend for people to

740
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: buy this year when it comes to books and comics

741
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: and things you're excited about.

742
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

743
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 8: I mean I'll start with the comics because I guess

744
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 8: it's on theme. I am lucky enough to be published

745
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 8: with Drawn and Quarterly.

746
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 5: These days, Oh, I love them.

747
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 8: I get to read a lot of John and Quarterly

748
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 8: books as a result, and so the ones that I

749
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 8: have really enjoyed that more or less have been coming

750
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 8: out at the same time as Cannon the Weight by

751
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 8: Melissa Mendez's. It's a huge book. It took her ten

752
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 8: years to make, I think, and it shows like it's

753
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 8: just it's a it's a real magnum opus. But it

754
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 8: reads so fast. I read it in one sitting, which

755
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 8: I think is often the greatest compliment that you can

756
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 8: give a cartoonist is that you just sit there and

757
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 8: become completely spell around. It's got incredible visual flow.

758
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 5: It really will.

759
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 8: It's a real sucker punch in the heart, though it's

760
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 8: so sad. And the other one also that's very sad.

761
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 8: I think I'm drawn towards these kinds of books. Is

762
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 8: Black Cohosh by Eagle Valiant BROSI. I loved that book.

763
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 8: I also read it in one sitting, and then you know,

764
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 8: I can. I mean Michael Deforge. He's a Toronto cartoonist

765
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 8: who is just an absolute power house of productivity. He

766
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 8: puts out a book every year and I still don't

767
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 8: understand how he sleeps and eats and things. But the

768
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 8: last book I read of his Familiar Face, and I

769
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 8: loved it. It's creepy and it's also very touching. I

770
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 8: think he has this way of doing what maybe counts

771
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 8: as sci fi.

772
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: That yeah, abstract sci fi, Like yeah, he's one of

773
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: the best work under cartoonists for sure, like such a

774
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: crazy cool And I love that you're at DNQ because

775
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a great fit for you. I

776
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: feel like they are putting out the most subversive, transgressive,

777
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: cool shit, and they're also finding old like eighties female

778
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: Japanese mangakas to archive and stuff. Like they're doing the

779
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: work I think comics needs. So I'm glad that you're

780
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: enjoying being there. In the books they're putting out any

781
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: more good res.

782
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 8: Yes, this one is a fanographics one actually, which was

783
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 8: my previous publisher, and it's a very dear friend of mine.

784
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 8: It's putting out a kind of retrospective collection of the

785
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 8: older cartoons. And they were one of the Melbourne cartoonists

786
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 8: that you know, I practiced with closely for you know,

787
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 8: the last ten to fifteen years, and so I've learnt

788
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 8: so much from them.

789
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 5: I've shared a studio with them.

790
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 8: Their name is Tommy Parrish and the book that's coming

791
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 8: out now is called The Past is a Grotesque Animal,

792
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,959
Speaker 8: which I think is a fabulous title. And I feel

793
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 8: very nostalgic about these comics in this collection, particularly because

794
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 8: we've talked about so many of them, and I feel

795
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 8: like they're kind of, you know, in my morbid Love

796
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 8: of Horrible Things. There's lots of really sticky, heavy, juicy

797
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 8: content love writing about sex and death and angst.

798
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 3: I that very fad graphics of them.

799
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: I was going to say, that's what we go there for, right,

800
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: We come to this place for depression.

801
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 5: In the best way.

802
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 3: Late any final recommendations before I let you go.

803
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 5: I'll rattle the matter as quickly as I can.

804
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 8: These are non comics and they're wonderful. As someone who

805
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 8: has a short attention span, I just blasted through them,

806
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 8: so I've got personal attention. Role play by Felix Child Bradley.

807
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 8: It's a it's a local author for me in Montreal,

808
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 8: The Queer. They are one of the best writers of

809
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 8: like clever weird fiction, what you could call it magical surrealism,

810
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 8: just a collection of short stories that have all some

811
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 8: of the most clever, charming, strange stories I've read in

812
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 8: a long time. And but a Honey Pig Bread by

813
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 8: Francesca E Kuiarci, who is also a Montreal author. These days,

814
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 8: we've claimed her and that book is just pure, like

815
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 8: deep and touching and profound, but also just pure hedonism.

816
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 8: There are such incredible descriptions of food and sex in

817
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 8: this book and me too, and she loves food more

818
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 8: than most people I know and is an incredible cook,

819
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 8: and I you know, selfishly I recommend both of those

820
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 8: two authors because I admire them greatly, but also I'm

821
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 8: planning on doing collaborative short stories with both of them

822
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 8: in the next little while.

823
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: I also did pitch this to everyone, like whether it's

824
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 1: Julia at dan Q or some of the other authors.

825
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: I basically was like, just tell them they can come

826
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: and show out with their friends. So you achieved this perfectly.

827
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: It was wonderful to have you. We please feel free

828
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: to come back anytime and talk more about your cool

829
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 1: work or just stuff you're excited about. And yeah, guys,

830
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: you can pre order Canon right now from Drawn and

831
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: Quarterly by Lee Lai.

832
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Lee for joining us.

833
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 5: Thanks It's a pleasure.

834
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Lee for joining me to talk canon,

835
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: and thanks to our super producer, Scream Queens, Common and

836
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: Joel for sharing their favorite winter gothic films as we

837
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: head into New Yen.

838
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 9: Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young

839
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 9: and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.

840
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Joel, Monique and Aaron Kaufman.

841
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 9: Our supervising producer is Abuza part.

842
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 1: Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Johnson and Baywack.

843
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 9: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme

844
00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 9: songs by Aaron Kaufman.

845
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and

846
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: Heidi our discord moderator