1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio. 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: And how the tech are you? You know? One thing 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: I have talked about a lot over the last couple 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: of years has been the semiconductor chip shortage, which is 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: impacting everything from PC manufacturing to the automotive industry too, 8 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, printer toner cartridges. And I frequently mentioned that 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: many of the semiconductor fabrication facilities are in Taiwan. But 10 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: then that got me to thinking, why are they in Taiwan? 11 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: How did that happen? This was a big gap in 12 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: my knowledge, so I thought I would look into it 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: and then do an episode on it. And I am 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: a big believer in context. I don't think you can 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: just say our story begins in nineteen seventy four, because 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: without an understanding of history and politics and social movements, 17 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: you can't really grasp how Taiwan got to where it 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: is and the different forces that are you know, present 19 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: in Taiwan's economy in general and the semiconductor industry in particular. 20 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: So we're going to do a super fast, high high 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: level overview of Taiwan's history, because, as it turns out, history, politics, 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: and economics i'll play a huge part in how and 23 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: why Taiwan became and remains a critical component of the 24 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: microchips supply chain. Also, keep in mind, again super high level, 25 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: the history of Asia is far too complex for me 26 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: to cover in depth. I mean I would have to 27 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: dedicate an entire podcast and do you know, years of 28 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: episodes to really even scratch the surface. But let's talk 29 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: about Taiwan. First of all, Taiwan is an island. It's 30 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: off the southeastern coast of mainland China. It's across from 31 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: a province called Fu Chian. Also, my apologies for my pronunciation. Um, 32 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: it's bad even in English. It's going to be terrible 33 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: for Taiwanese and Chinese and other foreign names. As my 34 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: relatives would say. I'm just laying that out here now 35 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: because it's gonna happen. So, Taiwan is about a hundred 36 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: miles or a hundred sixty kilometers off the coast of 37 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: mainland China. The city of Taipei, on the northern tip 38 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: of Taiwan is sort of the political center of the island. 39 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: Even though it's on the northern tip. It's also the 40 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: economic powerhouse of the island. But the fabrication plants or 41 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: fabs or as you will sometimes here or sometimes you'll 42 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: hear them called foundries, they're all the same thing. The foundry, 43 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: fab fabrication plant. It just means in this case, a 44 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: company that makes integrated circuits and semiconductors. All of these 45 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: are are for the most part, are located in sin Chew. 46 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: Again my apologies for pronunciation. Anyway, that's a city to 47 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: the southwest of Taipei. It actually faces across from mainland China. Now, 48 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: for at least ten thousand years, you had indigenous people 49 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: living on Taiwan who were self governing, had different tribes 50 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: of them, and you know, they had their own languages, 51 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: they had their own conflicts with one another, etcetera. Beginning 52 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: around a thousand years ago, people from what would become 53 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: the Fuchian Province of China came to Taiwan um and 54 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: like I said that that provinces in the southeast of China, 55 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: it's essentially across the sea from Taiwan, and they would 56 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: become known as the Hoklow and that migration would continue 57 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: into the seventeenth century, so over the course of like 58 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: six hundred years they were migrating. There was a second 59 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: group from China known as the Hakka Uh and they 60 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: began migrating to Taiwan as well. So you had these 61 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: two different groups of mainland China uh folks who were 62 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: migrating to Taiwan. The Hakka group were a group of 63 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: people who frequently faced discrimination on the mainland. I've often 64 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: seen them compared to other groups of folks who often 65 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: were displaced in various regions, such as Jewish populations would 66 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: frequently undergo this as well as Roma populations. Now, the 67 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: Hoklo people's were greater in number, and they essentially claimed 68 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: the coastal regions, the more favorable regions, and they forced 69 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: the Hakka people's closer toward the interior. The aboriginals, the 70 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: indigeno as people were even pushed further in. Today, the 71 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: Hoklo and Hakka are considered the Taiwanese population. So the 72 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: you have the aboriginals or indigenous people, and then you 73 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: have the Taiwanese people. Those were the people who migrated 74 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: from China, you know, between a thousand and you know, 75 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: six hundred years ago, and they represent those people, the 76 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: ones who migrated. They represent more than eight percent of 77 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: Taiwan's population today. In fact, the Hoklore is the largest 78 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: slice of that pie. I think it's something like between 79 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: sixty and sixty of the population. But then after these 80 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: migrations where people from mainland China began to settle in Taiwan, 81 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: you had the era of colonization, and the Dutch and 82 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: Spanish both established a presence on Taiwan. The Dutch actually 83 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: pushed the Spanish out. The Dutch presence was really an 84 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: outpost of the East India Company, one of the most 85 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: powerful entities in the six hundreds, not to be confused 86 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: with the British East India Company, another very powerful corporation 87 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: at that time. The Dutch one was kind of an 88 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: early example of a company dominating in supply chains, like 89 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: in shipbuilding and things like that. So, you know, it 90 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,559 Speaker 1: kind of seems like history is a way of repeating itself, 91 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: because Taiwan would again become an important link in supply 92 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: chains later on. In sixteen sixty two, Ming Dynasty loyalists 93 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: from China fled to Taiwan as the Ming dynasty was 94 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: collapsing in the Shing dynasty began to establish itself. The 95 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: Chinese pushed the Dutch from Taiwan and asserted control over 96 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: the island. So you have the Taiwanese uh which were 97 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: the earlier migrants from China, and now you have the 98 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: Ming dynasty loyalists establishing themselves in China. In sixteen eighty three, 99 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: the Shing forces displaced the Ming forces, but Taiwan remained 100 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: under Chinese control for two hundred years. Now, Asia in 101 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds was a pretty chaotic place, filled with 102 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: lots of intrigue. You had major powers all at play 103 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: in the area, many of which were going through their 104 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: own internal revolutions. So you had China obviously an empire UH. 105 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: You had Russia, which at the time was a monarchy. Japan, 106 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: which in the nineteenth century cast off its military government 107 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: which was called a shogunate, and in name, at least 108 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: it returned to being an empire, though really it would 109 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: mark an era in which Japanese would rapidly modernize. You 110 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: also had Korea, which had defended itself against Japanese invasions 111 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century. By the eighteen hundreds, Korea had 112 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: become very much an isolationist nation resisting all outside influence 113 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: and modernization. Now, the reason I mentioned all this is 114 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: that these different political alignments would shape the region over 115 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: the following century. Both Japan and China tried to gain 116 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,559 Speaker 1: influence over Korea. That precipitated into an all out war 117 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: between China and Japan, and the Japanese forces, which had 118 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: more effectively modernized and were better organized than the Chinese forces, 119 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: one pretty much every single battle that they had with 120 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: the Chinese. So in eight China signs the treaty with Japan, 121 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: and as part of that treaty, China seeds Taiwan to Japan. 122 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: So the Japanese take control of Taiwan. So again we 123 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: went from the indigenous peoples to the early Chinese migrants, 124 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: to the Dutch, to the Ming loyalists, to the Shing loyalists, 125 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: to Japanese occupation. Uh a really intense amount of change 126 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: for this one island. While Taiwan was under Japanese control, 127 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: something else huge was happening in China. Towards the end 128 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century. The Shing dynasty was falling apart 129 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: for lots of reasons, kind of like the Ming dynasty 130 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: had done. Centuries earlier, there were a lot of internal conflicts. 131 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: There were pressures from countries like Russia, Britain, Japan, Germany, France, 132 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: and the United States. And to get into all the 133 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: details would require a mini series of its own. But 134 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: all this tension, combined with a growing distrust and imperialism 135 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: within China itself, led to the Chinese Revolution. This was 136 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,239 Speaker 1: around nineteen eleven and nineteen twelve, so China would ultimately 137 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: shift at least a name into a republic. The Shing 138 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: dynasty was overthrown and the Republic of China or r 139 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: o C was born UM, and even that story is 140 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: super complicated. Part of that process also saw a nationalist 141 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: party called k MT taking formation UM, which was initially 142 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: suppressed by the first r o C president. Turns out 143 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: the first presid that was actually more of a dictator. 144 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: He even tried to turn China back into a monarchy, 145 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: which failed, But I digress. So we then get to 146 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: a truly chaotic era in China's history in which various 147 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: provinces rebelled against the dictator slash president, and many regions 148 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: ended up being led by military commanders who became known 149 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: as warlords UH. The KMT party, which again was a 150 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: very China centric party. It was very much based in 151 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: nationalist philosophies, this idea of you know, China is China, 152 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: and we need to unify and we need to expunge 153 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: all the foreign influence that has been trying to to 154 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: control China up to this point. But you had another 155 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: political party come to power, the Chinese Communist Party or CCP. 156 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: These two parties would actually work together in kind of 157 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: an unsteady alliance for a couple of different brief eras 158 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: the Soviet Communists were influencing and encouraging the CCP. So 159 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: the alliance between the ultra nationalistic KMT and the Soviet 160 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: backed c c P was always uneasy, but a common 161 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: enemy Japan kept the two parties united at least temporarily, 162 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: and the war with Japan would overlap with World War Two. 163 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: So Japan once again won numerous conflicts against China and 164 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: sapped much of the Republic of China's resources in the process. 165 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: Uh the KMT was plagued with corruption and infighting, and 166 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: meanwhile the Communist Party, the CCP, was growing more unified 167 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: and more confident. Then we get to nineteen forty five 168 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: and the end of World War Two and Japan surrenders, 169 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: and as part of that, it seeds Taiwan back to China. Now, 170 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: the last time China controlled Taiwan, it was the Shing 171 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: dynasty that was in control. Now it was the Republic 172 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: of China, which for all practical purposes really meant the KMT, 173 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: that political party of nationalist China philosophy. But the c 174 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: c P was rising in power and the k m 175 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: T was in turmoil, and once again China entered into 176 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: a civil war, and the c c P made massive 177 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: strides against the KMT within China. So in nineteen forty nine, 178 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: the Republic of China government fled to Taiwan and the 179 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: Communist UH, the Chinese Communist Party, takes control of mainland China. 180 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: So in nineteen forty nine we entered into the era 181 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: of two China's up. Interestingly, the United States did not 182 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: recognize mainland China's government as quote unquote China until nineteen 183 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: seventy nine. I would say that's largely because of the 184 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: Cold War, the fear of Soviet influence UH. And even 185 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: though the Republic of China was essentially confined to Taiwan 186 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: and the surrounding area. The that was what was recognized 187 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: as quote unquote China. In nineteen seventy nine, that switched 188 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: and now the United States still only recognizes China, it 189 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: doesn't recognize Taiwan as being a separate country. So now 190 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: it just recognizes the the mainland China government as the 191 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: actual China in U s I S. So, yeah, we 192 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: have to China's there's there's the mainland under the control 193 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: of the Chinese Communist Party, and there is Taiwan, which 194 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: is under the control of the Republic of China. And 195 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: for decades, for practical purposes, that was just the KMT. 196 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: More than a million Chinese fled to Taiwan in ninety 197 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: nine as well, and the Republic of China in Taiwan 198 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 1: would issue some emergency decrees in ninety forty nine as 199 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: in order to try and maintain order in Taiwan uh 200 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: and they were pretty restrictive, like one of them banned 201 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: the formation of new political parties, so it kind of 202 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: secured KMT as the party in power indefinitely. There were 203 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: a couple of other smaller, mostly ineffective political parties that 204 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: were active at the time, but KMT was was absolutely dominant, 205 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: so they were effectively synonymous with the government of Taiwan. 206 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: They also got rid of stuff like term limits, so 207 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: it was really like just making sure that they had 208 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: this on lockdown. The Republic of China would pursue a 209 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: brutal anti communist campaign in Taiwan for decades. It was 210 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: actually known as the White Terror that extended all the 211 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: way into the nineteen nineties. In fact, that the Republic 212 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: of China would declare martial law in Taiwan, which would 213 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: last from nineteen nine to nineteen eight seven. So Taiwan's 214 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: emergence as a player in the semiconductor space actually happened 215 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: while all this was still a thing. So you might 216 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: wonder why is he even talking about this, because these 217 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: were policies that were actually active when Taiwan began to 218 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: establish its semiconductor industry. Okay, we've got some more history 219 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: to get through, and then I swear we're gonna talk 220 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: about semi conductors. But first let's take a quick break. Okay, 221 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: we're back mainland China. It gave the People's Republic of China, 222 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: ruled by the Communist Party, maintains that Taiwan is still 223 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: part of China. Uh. The k m T s platform 224 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: in in Taiwan that that one maintains that Taiwan is 225 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: separate from mainland China, but it views the Unified China 226 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: idea as critical for trade and political relationships with the mainland. Uh. 227 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: If I'm being honest, there's some subtleties here that I 228 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: don't fully understand because it almost seems like the KMT 229 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: is saying we also believe in the unified China, just 230 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, we're separate from them, and I it almost 231 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: seems like double thing to me. But I'm sure that 232 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: it's you know, fully logical, and I just don't grasp 233 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: it because I haven't really been immersed in research enough 234 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: to be able to understand it. Anyway, the tensions between 235 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: Taiwan and China are key to understanding Taiwan's place in 236 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: the semiconductor industry today and how like people are starting 237 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: to wake up to the potential dangers of this uh, 238 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: this tension between China and Taiwan. So since the mid forties, 239 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: the Republic of China has maintained control of Taiwan. The 240 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: KMT dominated the Republic of China for most of that period, 241 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: but more recently that has changed. In two thousand, a 242 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: candidate for the Democratic Progressive Party or DPP, defeated the 243 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: KMT candidate for President of Taiwan. The DPP platform centered 244 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: largely on the concept of a Taiwanese republic with independent sovereignty. 245 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: So this is more of a party that says we 246 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,479 Speaker 1: are our own nation, we should be considered as such. 247 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: And you can say that the DPP in general favors 248 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: closer ties with the United States and independence from China, 249 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: while the KMT has tendencies of maintaining closer relationships with China. 250 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: Uh A lot of the members of KMT are people 251 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: who migrated from China to Taiwan, so they want to 252 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: maintain those those ties, both economic and political. Now I 253 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: mentioned that the population of Taiwan is ethnically more than 254 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: eight percent Taiwanese. Again, those are the people who migrated 255 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: from China hundreds of years ago, most of those being 256 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: Hucklo or Fushian Chinese settlers. About two percent of the 257 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: population are indigenous peoples whose history on the island stretches 258 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: back thousands of years, and about fourteen percent of the 259 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: population are mainland Chinese who relocated to Taiwan or a 260 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: descended directly from you know, a generation that located relocated 261 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: from China to Taiwan. Since two thousand, the power has 262 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: shifted a couple of times between the KMT and the 263 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: d p P, and currently the DPP controls a majority 264 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: of the government of Taiwan. The island has had a 265 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: few eras of industrialization, mostly that got started during the 266 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: era of Japanese occupation, and so there was some industrialization 267 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: that was occurring in Taiwan around World War One and 268 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: World War Two. Under the Republic of China in the 269 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and sixties, Taiwan experienced an incredibly rapid industrialization 270 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: very it mostly in areas like textiles and light manufacturing, 271 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: but it was happening at a pace that was well 272 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: beyond what we saw develop in other countries like the 273 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 1: United Kingdom. One of the practices that led to this, 274 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: both in Taiwan and on mainland China, was a new 275 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 1: policy that encouraged students to study abroad in fields like 276 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: engineering before returning home to apply what they had learned 277 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: and build out industry in their home country. Now hold 278 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: that thought. We're going to shift gears for a second 279 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: to talk about integrated circuits. Okay, before nineteen fifty nine, 280 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: circuits consisted of electronic components that were connected to each 281 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: other with physical wires to create a circuit. Uh, the 282 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: invention of the transistor meant that circuits could be much 283 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: smaller than they had been. The transistor was able to 284 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: replace a component like the vacuum tube, and that's what 285 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: allowed for the invention of things like the transistor radio, 286 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: which was a device small enough to carry in your hand, 287 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: whereas the radios of old those were like big table 288 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: top or sometimes consoles, like a piece of furniture all 289 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: on themselves. But transistors brought in the era of miniaturization. However, 290 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: circuits were still kind of bulky. You know, you still 291 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: had to use wires. You couldn't get too small because 292 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: it became too difficult to connect the individual electronic components 293 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: to two wires and you just reached a point of 294 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: diminishing returns. But then Robert Noyce, who was working at Fairchild, 295 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: and Jack Kilby who was working at Texas Instruments, each 296 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: independently came up with a similar idea. What if you 297 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: were to build out a circuit on a single silicon 298 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: chip and you could etch connectors to every component, and 299 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: you could build directly onto the chip and all the 300 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: components would be integrated on that chip. It would be 301 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: an integrated circuit or I see that could reduce the 302 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: size of circuits even more than the shift from vacuum 303 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: tubes to transistors did. Noise would ultimately get the patent 304 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: for that invention from the patent office. They both filed 305 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: for a patent. Noise just you know one. He just 306 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: got it first, but both of them are credited in 307 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: at least in most places, as being the inventor of 308 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: the integrated circuit. Now, it's one thing to design an 309 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: integrated circuit, it's another thing to produce them at scale. 310 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: Production is a tough challenge, and it's made even tougher 311 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: by the fact that as designs evolve and components shrink 312 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: in size, you actually have to overhaul your entire manufacturing 313 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: process in order to meet that design right Like, you 314 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: can't just keep using the same process. It isn't designed 315 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: to make things smaller. You have to actually reconfigure everything. 316 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: So for that reason, it really didn't take very long 317 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: after the invention of the integrated circuit for a lot 318 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: of companies to see a problem. The cost of creating 319 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: fabrication facilities was considerable, and the cost of overhauling them 320 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: meant you couldn't just right off as a one time thing. 321 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: You couldn't say, well, will invest fifteen million dollars to 322 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: build out a facility and then we're done. No, it'd 323 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: be we'll have to invest fifteen million dollars in a 324 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: facility and then in a year we will have to 325 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: spend another five million to update the facility. Now this 326 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,959 Speaker 1: opened up an opportunity a company could specialize in the 327 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: manufacture of integrated circuits that had been designed by other companies. 328 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: So you would have some companies just working in R 329 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: and D and they would build out new designs for 330 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: semiconductor chips, but they wouldn't be ready, they wouldn't be 331 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: capable of manufacturing those on a scale that would allow 332 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: them to you know, use them as products. So then 333 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: they would partner with a fabrication company. They would become 334 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: a customer of the fabrication company. In the fabrication company 335 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: would just focus on building out integrated circuits at scale. 336 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: That scale thing is important because if you are able 337 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: to operate at scale, you can bring down the cost 338 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: of the individual components that you need in order to 339 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: actually make the thing. As the costs come down, if 340 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: the price stays the same, then you you make profit. 341 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: All right. So let's get back to Taiwan in in 342 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: Sincho City, and again my apologies for all the terrible pronunciations. 343 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: The Industrial Technology Research Institute or I t r I 344 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: was founded. It's a nonprofit organization. And you might say, 345 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: by whom who was it that founded the I t 346 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: r I. I am not entirely sure. My research just 347 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: gave me that date and the fact that it was founded. 348 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: I looked in lots of places and unfortunately a ton 349 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: of them have nearly identical wording, which tells me that 350 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: they're all drawing from the same source. So I don't 351 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: have more information on that. I'm sure people out there 352 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: know who are listening to this. They can let me 353 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: know tech stuff hsw on Twitter because I'm curious anyway. 354 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: I t r I is a technology R and D 355 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: institution that would play a key role in launching the 356 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: semiconductor industry in Taiwan. And then we get a story 357 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: that goes like this, at a group of seven people, 358 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: among them Taiwan's Minister of Economic affairs, and another one 359 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: was a Chinese born executive who worked at Radio Corporation 360 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: of America or r c A. I've done multiple episodes 361 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: about r c A, so you can listen to those 362 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: to learn about how influential and important that company was. Uh. 363 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: They met for breakfast at a stall in Taipei again 364 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 1: along with like five other people. This was in nineteen 365 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: seventy four, and they were talking about how Taiwan could 366 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: be part of the semiconductor manufacturing industry. Now, the story 367 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: says that the r c A executive or Taiwanese officials 368 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: to invest in building out fabrication facilities for integrated circuits, 369 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: and the officials were eager to bolster Taiwan's economy. This 370 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: is nineteen seventy four. That means this is following in 371 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: the wake of the nineteen seventy three oil crisis, which 372 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: in itself was the result of a massive political disagreement, 373 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: which is putting it lightly. That happened on a global scale, 374 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: and even countries that weren't directly connected to the oil 375 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: crisis got affected by it through you know, the fact 376 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: that countries that were affected, uh, you know, the international 377 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: commerce meant that this was a ripple effect across the 378 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: entire world, so Taiwan was hit by that. Now the 379 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: case was made that Taiwan could build up fabrication facilities 380 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: and other companies could rely upon those facilities to build 381 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: their designed circuits. The integrated circuit was less than twenty 382 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: years old at this point, and already they were getting 383 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: complicated enough that small fabrication facilities were beginning to get 384 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: left behind. And this is really where Moore's law comes 385 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: into play. So Moore's law is really an observation rather 386 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,239 Speaker 1: than a law. Gordon Moore observed a trend driven by 387 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: economic demand in which companies were doubling the number of 388 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: discrete components on integrated circuits every two years or so. 389 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: Today we tend to think of this as computers get 390 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: twice as powerful every two years, So the computers of 391 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: today are twice as powerful as the computers of two 392 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: years ago. But the original observation was that economic factors 393 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: primarily drove companies so that they would put our cram 394 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: twice as many components on a on a one inch 395 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: wafer of silicon. Every two years they would double. So 396 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: if you have you know in year one, if you 397 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: have a transistor with a thousand components, then by year 398 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: three year building circuits that have two thousand components, and 399 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: then by or five you're talking about four thousand components 400 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: and so on, and that gets really big, really fast. 401 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: This was opening up tons of pathways in technology, but 402 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: it also stood as a huge challenge to manufacture chips 403 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: at scale. Meanwhile, the companies doing the R and D 404 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: and chip design weren't necessarily in a position to build 405 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: out their own fab facilities. So it was an area 406 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: of opportunity Taiwan could lay the foundation to be a 407 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: link in the supply chain, the place where companies would 408 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: have their designs actually manufactured. Those finished chips could then 409 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: be sent elsewhere, maybe for packaging or even into incorporation 410 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: and other technologies you know, from handheld electronics to military systems, 411 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 1: to weapons to vehicles and everything in between. Now, this 412 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: was not going to happen overnight. The r c A 413 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: executive estimated it would take ten million dollars in investment 414 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: in four years to just get things moving in the 415 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: right direction. See when I say you've got to build 416 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: up fabric a facilities, that sounds pretty straightforward, but you 417 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: have to understand that chip fabrication requires incredibly specialized equipment 418 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: as well as knowledge and skill. Taiwan would have to 419 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: secure all of those in order to make this work. 420 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: Taiwan at the time had not advanced beyond the assembly 421 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: stage of production in the semiconductor industry. So, in other words, 422 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: the companies in Taiwan at that point they were putting 423 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: together components that had been made by you know, companies 424 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: in other countries, and they were just assembling them. Typically, 425 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: you would then see, if you know, Taiwan was to 426 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 1: follow the normal evolutionary path, you would see Taiwanese companies 427 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: jump into developing transistors next. But the Taiwanese officials decided 428 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: they needed a faster route, and so they made the 429 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: decision to acquire the technologies they needed to go straight 430 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: into integrated circuit fabrication, skipping over the whole transistor manufacturing stage. 431 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: In nineteen s R. C A agreed to transfer semiconductor 432 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: technology to Taiwan. Specifically, it was the seven micrometer c 433 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: MOSS or complementary metal oxide semiconductor process technology. You will 434 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: sometimes hear the word node used in semiconductors, and you'll 435 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: hear a measurement right you'll hear a size like seven 436 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: micrometers is pretty small. Uh, it's nowhere near as small 437 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: as the components that are on chips these days. But yeah, 438 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: seven micrometers nodes. Uh. If you hear the word note, 439 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: it's just talking about the process that's being used to 440 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: create these particular types of semiconductor chips. Engineers from Taiwan 441 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: traveled to the United States to train at our c 442 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: A facilities. They stayed there for a full year to 443 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: learn the ropes of semiconductor manufacturing. It wasn't unusual for 444 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: Taiwanese students to study overseas. They were continuously encouraged to 445 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: do so, and they would often take jobs with Pani's 446 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley. They would build up their knowledge and experience, 447 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: and then they would return to Taiwan to bolster the 448 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: burgeoning industry back home. Now. To do that, organizers working 449 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: on behalf of Taiwan established the Electronics Research and Service 450 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: Organization or e r s O in the United States. 451 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: The e r s O would help secure knowledge and 452 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: technology necessary to power Taiwan's efforts at home, among many 453 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: many other duties. The r s O was actually critical 454 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: in this endeavor Okay, we've got more to cover, but 455 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: we need to take another quick break. Okay, we're back. 456 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: Between nineteen seventy six and ninety nine, the collaborative efforts 457 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: of organizations like the Electronics Research and Service Organization you 458 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: know E r s O and I t R I 459 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: and many many others established a demonstration factory where foreign 460 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: trained engineers could return to Taiwan and put their knowledge 461 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: to work, and established manufacturing best practices for semiconductors. It 462 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: was kind of like training for the big game. It 463 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: was all about, all right, let's find out what works 464 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: best so that we can hit the ground running when 465 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: we're ready to open for business and accept customers. The 466 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: following years saw more investments into the semiconductor manufacturing UH 467 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: space in Taiwan. The size of the discrete components on 468 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: chips shrunk from seven micrometers to three and a half micrometers. 469 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: Thanks More's law, I t r I was able to 470 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: secure technology from overseas and distribute it to Taiwanese firms 471 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: as well as to I t r eyes own pilot plant. 472 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: In I t R I spun off a group that 473 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: had been working on integrated chip manufacturing, and that group 474 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: would become Taiwan's first private integrated circuit fab facility. It 475 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: was called United micro Electronics Corporation or u m C, 476 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: and several folks who were at I t R I, 477 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: which in itself again is a nonprofit organization. Several of 478 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: them would then go on to found companies in Taiwan 479 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: in the semiconductor space, so it became kind of an incubator. 480 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: But the really big player in Taiwan would emerge in 481 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: nineteen eight seven thanks to Morris Chang. Now. Chang was 482 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: born in China, but he earned advanced degrees in engineering 483 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: at M I T and Stanford and then worked at 484 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: Texas Instruments for twenty five years, specifically in semiconductor design 485 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: and manufacturing in NIVE. The Taiwanese government contacted Chang to 486 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: bring his expertise back to Taiwan, so Chang went to 487 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: Taiwan and he joined the I t R I. He 488 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: became the chairman and president of the organization in nineteen 489 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: eighty six and he oversaw the launch of a sophisticated 490 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: semiconductor wafer fab plant on I t r I s campus, 491 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: and in nineteen eight seven he took the lead on 492 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: establishing the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, or t s MC. 493 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: The company received financial backing from the Taiwanese government and 494 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: from the Dutch company Phillips, and from private investors. Chang's 495 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: leadership established several practices that secured Taiwan's place as a 496 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: key link in the semiconductor supply chain. For one, he 497 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: set prices for semiconductor manufacturing ahead of the cost curve. 498 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,479 Speaker 1: This was a big controversial decision at the time, so 499 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: his logic was that he would sacrifice short term profits 500 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: in order to get a firm hold of market share, 501 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: and then he could hit a manufacturing scale that would 502 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: bring costs down, but the price would remain steady. So again, 503 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: like bye bye, producing at scale, the individual components he 504 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: needed would end up coming down. It's like buying in bulk, right. 505 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: If you buy in bulk, the individual price for each 506 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: unit comes down typically, So if you do that, but 507 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: the product you're selling remains steady at its price, well 508 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,959 Speaker 1: you have long term profits that way. Not everyone thought 509 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: this was gonna work, but boy howdy did it work. 510 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: The competitive pricing brought t s MC lots of customers 511 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: early on. This was particularly impressive because the company was 512 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: actually a couple of nodes behind the industry leaders. Remember 513 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: nodes referred to processes to make semiconductor chips. And when 514 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: I say a couple of nodes behind, typically what we're 515 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: talking about is the size of the components that you 516 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: can you can make on a chip. The more components 517 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: you can make on a chip, the more sophisticated the 518 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: chip is, the more powerful it can be. Not everything 519 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: needs that kind of a chip, right, Like if you're 520 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: talking about a toaster, you probably don't need a super 521 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: sophisticated chip. So t SMC starts getting customers that are 522 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: looking for a cost effective but not necessarily bleeding edge 523 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 1: semiconductor fabrication facility, and in the meantime, the company kept 524 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: reinvesting in itself in order to try and catch up 525 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: with its competitors, which it did like Over time, it 526 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: started to close that gap so that it was able 527 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: to to build out the facilities and to acquire the 528 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: technology necessary to produce chips at nodes that were more 529 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: like the the leading UH standard, So they were able 530 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: to both operate as a business and to advance their 531 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: own technology at the same time. It's pretty impressive. Another 532 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: practice that chain oversaw a t SMC was creating an 533 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: efficient design cycle so that the time to market would 534 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: be as short as possible. This was for t SMCS customers. 535 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: In other words, the fabrication facility made it easy for 536 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: chip designers to go from their idea to production. They 537 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: created processes that made that very efficient so that there 538 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: was not much of a delay from the point where 539 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: you say, here's what we want and being able to 540 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: produce it at scale. So that made t SMC a 541 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: go to fabrication partner for tons of fabulous chip designers. 542 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: Fabulous just means it's a company that designs chips, but 543 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: it doesn't manufacture them. Heck, t SMC is the dominant 544 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: company in that industry today. They have somewhere around fifty 545 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 1: three to fifty six percent of the global market share 546 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: and semiconductor fabrication. So it's not really an exaggeration to 547 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: say that there's a fifty fifty chance that any semiconductor 548 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: chip you come across was produced it was manufactured at 549 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: t SMC. Not designed there necessarily, but produced there. It's 550 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: one of just a few company eas another one being 551 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,919 Speaker 1: Samsung that has a fab facility that can make chips 552 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: using the five nanometer node process. Once upon a time, 553 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: as I said, those sizes that we refer to in 554 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,919 Speaker 1: processes actually related to the components on chips, Like seven 555 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: micrometers had a direct relationship with the size of components 556 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,959 Speaker 1: that were on a chip. These days, when we're talking 557 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: about things like five nanometers, we're no longer really talking 558 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: about the size of anything on that chip anymore. It's 559 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: now more or less just a designation to say the 560 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: next generation of you know, chip process design, and even 561 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: that's on borrowed time. T SMC plans to commercialize the 562 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: three nanometer node process this year, so it will be 563 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: replaced possibly about the time this episode comes out. So 564 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: t s MC essentially cornered the market on semiconductor fabrication 565 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: in lots of respects. And as integrated circuits get more complicated, 566 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: building out a foundry that can make those kinds of 567 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: circuits gets more expensive. So there's this increasingly high hurdle 568 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: for anyone else to overcome if they want to get 569 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: into that business, and as we've seen over the last 570 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: couple of years, that can be a big problem. Uh, 571 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: it's essentially the the issue of putting all your eggs 572 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: in one basket. Demand for chips has been incredibly high, 573 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: but lots of factors have impacted t SMC recently and 574 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: their capability of producing and shipping chips. One of those 575 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: is actually political tensions between the United States and China. 576 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: Both the US and China play a very important role 577 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: in the semiconductor chain. Taiwan ships a lot of semiconductors 578 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: to China. China represents an enormous revenue source for Taiwan, 579 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: especially in the semiconductor industry, so that is a big 580 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: concern for Taiwan. And the United States has the lion's 581 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: share of the chip design companies in the world, so 582 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: they are big customers of those foundries, and the trade 583 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: war between the United States and China kind of puts 584 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: Taiwan in the middle and things get pretty hairy. Like 585 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,760 Speaker 1: t SMC, for example, stopped making chips for the Chinese 586 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: telecom company Huawei in the wake of accusations that Huawei 587 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: was potentially using tech to conduct surveillance on other countries 588 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: through those countries owned telecommunications systems. So you know, like 589 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: the United States builds out a cellular network and the 590 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: cellular network has Huahwei components in it. The fear was, Oh, 591 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: the Chinese could be using that too, you know, listen 592 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: in on conversations and steal information from the United States, 593 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: or to compromise the integrity of the telecommunication system in 594 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: the US. And there's this ongoing concern about that. So 595 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 1: t s MC decided to side with the United States 596 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: on this one. Uh and there are always tensions that 597 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: China could potentially try to force Taiwan to reunify with 598 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: mainland China. In fact, Taiwan has held a few notable 599 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: war games to simulate a Chinese invasion to train for 600 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: that eventuality, or perhaps just to provide a type of 601 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: military theater to show that the island is willing to 602 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: fight to retain its semi independence from mainland China. COVID 603 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: also really hit the supply chain hard, and that's really 604 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: pulled back the curtain on how dangerous it is to 605 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: be so dependent upon a single region, really a single 606 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: company for the majority of semiconductor chips, right Like. It 607 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: has really shown that when that there's something that interferes 608 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,720 Speaker 1: with that, it has this massive impact around the world. 609 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: Both the United States and China are pushing to establish 610 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: uh FAT foundries in their respective countries, so they're trying 611 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: to build out fab facilities within the United States or 612 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: within China. In fact, SMC has been has been tapped 613 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: with establishing a foundry in the United States. The current 614 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: estimation is that China, their technology for semiconductor fabrication, is 615 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: about ten years behind everybody else technologically speaking, and that 616 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: due to the speed at which tech evolves, it will 617 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: be very hard for China to close that gap at 618 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: least in the near future. The United States is much 619 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: further along technologically, but we still have to invest billions 620 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: of dollars to build out foundries, so there's an economic barrier, 621 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: not a technological barrier. Now it really raises questions also 622 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: about Taiwan's future in this space. I mean, it may 623 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: well be that in a decade Taiwan will no longer 624 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: be the dominant party for semiconductor fabrication. We may see 625 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: that built out in other parts of the world where 626 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: we've dispersed that a bit, which in some ways is 627 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: good obviously because it means that you know, the supply 628 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 1: chain becomes more becomes stronger. Obviously, a chain is only 629 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: as strong as its weakest links. So if something happens 630 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: to one link, then everything beyond that is affected, and uh, 631 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 1: we've seen that with the semiconductor shortage. So the idea 632 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: being if we can have more fabrication facilities that are 633 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: capable of producing at scale, we can avoid that kind 634 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: of thing in the future. But it also potentially means 635 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: a massive economic impact on Taiwan. They make billions of dollars. 636 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,879 Speaker 1: T SMC generates billions of dollars of revenue every quarter. 637 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: I want to say that the most recent quarter the 638 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: company reported six billion dollars in revenue. That's a lot 639 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: of money, so it could be a massive blow to 640 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: Taiwan as well. Meanwhile, obviously the the political and social 641 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: changes in Taiwan are further distancing itself from what's going 642 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 1: on in mainland China. Anyway. That is kind of the 643 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 1: short version forty minutes plus of why Taiwan is so 644 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 1: associated with semiconductor manufacturing. It literally is because we reached 645 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: a point where someone was going to have to make 646 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: that huge investment in order to meet the demands of 647 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,919 Speaker 1: chip designers, and the Taiwanese government were willing to put 648 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: forth that kind of investment to establish themselves as that party, 649 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: and that's how it happened. Um, but yeah, I hope 650 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this this episode, I highly recommend that you 651 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: read up on the history of China, the history of Taiwan, 652 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: the history of Asia really for that that whole period 653 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,919 Speaker 1: I was talking about, because it really explains why things 654 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: are the way they are today and how these very 655 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 1: geopolitical issues can end up being a huge challenge for 656 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: for global businesses today. If you have suggestions for topics 657 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: I should cover in future episodes of tech Stuff, please 658 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 1: do not hesitate to reach out. The Twitter handle for 659 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 1: our show is text Stuff hs W and I'll talk 660 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 1: to you again really soon. Text Stuff is an I 661 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 662 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 663 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.