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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stephone

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Speaker 1: Never Told You production of iHeart Radio. And we're back

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Speaker 1: with part two of our two partner on women cult leaders.

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Speaker 2: We have been through no real.

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Speaker 1: Design, been talking a lot about cults lately and a.

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Speaker 3: Part of natural conversation Annie, who doesn't talk about cults.

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Speaker 2: Of course, obviously we do.

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Speaker 4: We add enough for a two parter, and I think

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Speaker 4: we could come back and revisit it at a third,

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Speaker 4: but in the meantime, please enjoy this classic episode.

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Speaker 5: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 1: I welcome to Stephan Never Told Your production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: How often do we do two parts? Is it an

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Speaker 2: often thing?

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Speaker 3: It is less often as of recent m I think

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Speaker 3: the last big two parter was Women who Loved Serial Killers?

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Speaker 6: Did that?

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Speaker 5: Was that a two parter?

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Speaker 1: I know that one wasn't, but the Women's Serial Killers was?

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Speaker 2: For sure?

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Speaker 3: There's something else we did not too long ago. Oh,

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Speaker 3: Women Who Organized? That was a two parter?

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Speaker 2: I think yeah?

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Speaker 3: And then Star Wars obviously obviously those were those two

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Speaker 3: were two partners.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I used to be really hesitant about two partners, and

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Speaker 1: I would try really hard to condense but there's a

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Speaker 1: certain point. I believe it was yesterday where I contacted

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Speaker 1: you and I think, I think this women, so it's

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Speaker 1: gonna have to be a two parter.

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Speaker 3: Right, I think we both like there's moments that we

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Speaker 3: think it's not going to be big.

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Speaker 5: And then we're like, oh, oh okay.

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Speaker 3: Because the women who organized I did not anticipate doing,

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Speaker 3: but it felt so sad to cut it off, right,

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Speaker 3: so we wanted to add as much as we could,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes it it means two parters.

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Speaker 1: Yay, Yes, And here is a second part of a

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Speaker 1: two part series we had on women leading cults. So

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Speaker 1: highly recommend you go listen to part one first because

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Speaker 1: we do a lot of baseline what are cults? What

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Speaker 1: are all the arguments about cults? Which is really key

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Speaker 1: to this conversation. There is so much we could unpack

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Speaker 1: in all of this, right, all of it. So if

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Speaker 1: that's something that you listeners would like to hear, please

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Speaker 1: let us know. But just we're kind of doing I

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Speaker 1: won't say superficial, but we're not going into the depths

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Speaker 1: we could on all of these cults and all of

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Speaker 1: these women and whether or not there cults.

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Speaker 3: We're talking more about examples rather than the psyche and

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Speaker 3: or trauma behind it, so that might be later though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I got so weirdly excited, but

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Speaker 1: it's just that site aspect is interesting.

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Speaker 3: When you always look deeper about the why, it's always

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Speaker 3: more fascinating to know.

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Speaker 2: It is it is.

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Speaker 1: So before we get into these examples, quick trigger warning,

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Speaker 1: there will be discussion of suicide, sexual abuse, violence, death, murder,

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Speaker 1: general abuse. We're not going to go too deep into

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Speaker 1: any of that, but when you're talking about cults, it

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Speaker 1: can get pretty grisly and disturbing. And yes, as we

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Speaker 1: said in part one, there's a lot of argument going

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Speaker 1: on in debate around what constitutes a cult, and there

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Speaker 1: are lots of layers of sexism, racism, and anti any

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Speaker 1: religion that's not Christianity involved in these discussions. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: just to acknowledge that that's going on, and with the

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Speaker 1: women we're talking about and the organizations we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: not everyone agree these women were cult leaders, and I

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Speaker 1: think those conversations are well worth having. Some of these

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Speaker 1: organizations might not be considered cults at all points in history,

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Speaker 1: but with the right person, they can become cults or

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Speaker 1: at the very least run by someone who fits the

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Speaker 1: cult leader stereotype. Who yeah, we talked about that in

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Speaker 1: part one as well, but like charismatic is one of

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Speaker 1: the very key things there, and controlling and like just

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Speaker 1: demanding all this adoration and complete submission. That being said,

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Speaker 1: these are some of the women that frequently come up

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Speaker 1: when you're digging around the internet for women cult leaders.

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Speaker 1: And another disclaimer, the histories of these can be a

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Speaker 1: bit murkier fantastical. As we said in our serial Killers episode,

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Speaker 1: it just can get a little real difficult because even

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Speaker 1: reputable newspaper sources sometimes like to really lean into that morbid,

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Speaker 1: ghastly side of all of this. So it's hard to

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Speaker 1: say for sure, right right, definitely level of shock factor

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Speaker 1: for sure. And speaking of let's start this one with

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Speaker 1: a Clementine Barnabette, sometimes called the first black female serial

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Speaker 1: killer in the United States, and in nineteen eleven, a

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Speaker 1: Louisiana police department got a frantic call about a suspected incident.

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Speaker 1: Sure enough, when police arrived on the scene, they discovered

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Speaker 1: the bodies of a man, woman, and child with their

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Speaker 1: skulls split open. A bloody axe at the head of

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Speaker 1: the bed, a bucket of blood in the corner, bloody

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Speaker 1: footprints throughout the room. They deduced the killer must have

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Speaker 1: come through the windows since the doors were locked at

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Speaker 1: the time. A local newspaper called it quote the most

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Speaker 1: brutal murder in the history of this section. It was

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Speaker 1: not the only acts murder to take place in nearby

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Speaker 1: areas of Louisiana and Texas. These murders were believed to

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Speaker 1: be the work of a cult by the name of

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Speaker 1: the Church of Sacrifice that required human sacrifices for their

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Speaker 1: religious rights, rumored to be led by a voodoo priestess.

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Speaker 1: Even so, all of the initial suspects were men. One

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Speaker 1: source described the murders as rained with acts, and after

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Speaker 1: other similar murders took place, usually of families, the authorities

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Speaker 1: began to suspect that they were quote the work of

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Speaker 1: the same terrible monster. Sources indicate most, if not all,

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Speaker 1: of these families were black families.

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Speaker 3: So the police eventually turned their sights on a sharecropper

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Speaker 3: on the wrong side of town named Raymond Barnabet. Both

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Speaker 3: his children, Zephyr and Clementine, testified against them, claiming they

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Speaker 3: were scared for their lives, he was abusive to his

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Speaker 3: whole family. According to records. However, more murders took place

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Speaker 3: while Raymond was in jail. Both of the children were arrested,

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Speaker 3: in part because their neighbors described them as degenerous, and

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Speaker 3: in part because Clementine had blood from one of the

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Speaker 3: murders on her shirt. A local newspaper reported in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eleven that when the police searched the Barnabut household, they

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Speaker 3: found a complete set of women's clothes in her room,

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Speaker 3: saturated with blood and covered with human brains. With no alibi,

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Speaker 3: Clementine went to jail. The murders did not let up.

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Speaker 3: Three families were murdered in January of nineteen twelve. The

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Speaker 3: dead's hands were splayed apart with wood, and messages like

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Speaker 3: this one were left on the walls. When he make

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Speaker 3: a the inquisition for blood, he forgeteth not the cry

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Speaker 3: of the humble A bit of a twist on a

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Speaker 3: Bible verse, by the way. These messages were written by

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Speaker 3: hand and signed Human five. And the press began attributing

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Speaker 3: these murders to the Human five gang, and they really

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Speaker 3: went all in on this voodoo aspect. Justice more and

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Speaker 3: more people were talking about Clementine's possible connection to the

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Speaker 3: mysterious Church of Sacrifice. Reverend King Harris was sought to

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Speaker 3: be the leader of this church, but upon questioning police

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Speaker 3: dismissed them as a suspect.

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Speaker 1: Lementine confessed to killing seventeen people in April of nineteen twelve.

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Speaker 1: She further explained that she wore a voodoo charm for

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Speaker 1: protection while she killed. In her words, it was gifted

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Speaker 1: to her by a voodoo priest, a man who did

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Speaker 1: not claim himself as a voodoo priest when question so

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Speaker 1: it was somebody that they followed up with and he

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Speaker 1: was like, whoa what?

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Speaker 2: And straws were.

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Speaker 1: Drawn, according to her, between her and her accomplices to

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Speaker 1: see who would commit the murders. She went on to

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Speaker 1: say she dressed as a man to be left relatively

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Speaker 1: alone and unnoticed. On night she was planning on killing someone,

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Speaker 1: and a local paper reported that she said she killed

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Speaker 1: the kids so as not to leave them an orphan

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Speaker 1: in this world. She said that she would quote caress

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Speaker 1: the corpses, and one district attorney called her a moral

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Speaker 1: pervert because of what she said in her testimony against

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Speaker 1: her father. People were still confused about the veracity of

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Speaker 1: her claims. When she gave the names of her accomplices,

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Speaker 1: all that was turned up. They were all dead ends.

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Speaker 1: She said she believed that sacrifices were the way to

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Speaker 1: achieve immortality. A nineteen twelve article headline read.

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Speaker 2: The X man is a woman. What's the exclamation point?

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Speaker 3: So later examination found there was no charge of sacrifice,

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Speaker 3: and that perhaps it was confused with Harris's sanctified church,

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Speaker 3: especially with the swirling rumors of voodoo. And none of

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Speaker 3: this was held by the fact that during her time

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Speaker 3: in jail, Clementine constantly modified her story and ended up

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Speaker 3: confessing to thirty five.

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Speaker 5: Murders who her.

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Speaker 3: Attorneys argued that she was insane, but this did not

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Speaker 3: prevent a judge from sansing her two lives at nineteen

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Speaker 3: years old. She tried and fell to escape early on,

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Speaker 3: but other than that didn't really cause much trouble. In fact,

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Speaker 3: one report about her imprisonment claim that a procedure returned

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Speaker 3: to her normal condition and she was released on good

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Speaker 3: behavior after a decade had passed.

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Speaker 2: So that's all pretty murky.

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Speaker 1: People who have delved into this belief that Clementine did

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Speaker 1: commit some of the murders, but maybe not all of them. However,

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Speaker 1: they think someone in that household was the primary murderer.

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Speaker 1: Over at True Crime Daily, James Horror wrote, she scandalized

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Speaker 1: the press, stirring up a gumbo of moral panic in

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Speaker 1: a state where civil war and slavery remained a living memory.

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Speaker 1: Everything about Clementine Barnabet represented a collision, even a perversion

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Speaker 1: of cultures in the eyes of white Louisiana, from her

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Speaker 1: mangled Creole French to her mangled beliefs, a tabloid baiting

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Speaker 1: blend of voodoo itself, a blend of Catholicism and West

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Speaker 1: African tribal rights and Evangelical Christianity. So I want to

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Speaker 1: include that because for this one, like her name came

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Speaker 1: up a lot, but there's just clearly to me, like

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Speaker 1: even in the language of the newspapers like degenerates, the

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Speaker 1: wrong side of town and this whole like voodoo thing

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Speaker 1: that the press was really pushing that there's just like

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Speaker 1: a layer of racism over the whole thing. And it

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel because this was kind of debunked right that

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Speaker 1: they found no proof of this church's sacrifice, but it's still.

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Speaker 2: She comes up as a woman leading a cult. Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty nine, in an Amazonian town in Brazil,

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Speaker 3: there were several reports of missing children. The authorities looked

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Speaker 3: into it but couldn't find any leaves, and the cases

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Speaker 3: jumped to nineteen missing children between the ages of eight

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Speaker 3: and thirteen. Five other children had been found dead castrated

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Speaker 3: with signs of torture. Officials believe that the murders and

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Speaker 3: disappearance were related to a medical guild due to precise

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Speaker 3: nature of castrations. These bodies were identified as homeless boys,

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Speaker 3: but the boys who had been reported missing had been

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Speaker 3: done so by their families, and depending on the source,

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Speaker 3: one or two boys managed to escape after castration and

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Speaker 3: found some officials. Whatever the case, only one ended up testifying,

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Speaker 3: and the story he told was horrific torture, rape, mutilate

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Speaker 3: like eyes, gouged out, and castration. He testified that other

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Speaker 3: children were stabbed and killed, their organs sold on the

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Speaker 3: black market or they ate them, but again this has

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Speaker 3: not been confirmed, and in his testimony he named a

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Speaker 3: handful of people doctor it's a police officer, wealthy businessman

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Speaker 3: and Valentina de Andrade, the leader of the religious cult.

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Speaker 1: The cult question was called Superior Universal Alignment, a UFO

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Speaker 1: cult led by Valentina whose members believe the world was

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Speaker 1: ending and the only way to be saved was by

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Speaker 1: following the commands of their leader. She claimed she'd been

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Speaker 1: contacted by extraterrestrial beings and that they claimed the apocalypse

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Speaker 1: was nigh, but that if she passed along the message,

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Speaker 1: they would send a ship to collect her and other

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Speaker 1: believers to spare them. She believed that God wasn't real

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Speaker 1: and that Jesus was an alien. Perhaps the most shocking

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Speaker 1: thing she said, though, was that boys born after nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty one, which is when she claimed to have received

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Speaker 1: her message, were evil and needed to be killed, both

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Speaker 1: because they were evil but also to serve as payment

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Speaker 1: to their extraterrestrial saviors. Five children were never found of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen reported missing, and four of the perpetrators were captured. However,

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Speaker 1: Valentina managed to escape the country and evaded capture for

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Speaker 1: several years. Even when authorities did locate her, she provided

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Speaker 1: an alibi for the murders and was released. Apparently she

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Speaker 1: fainted at this verdict. Yeah, so we have some more

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Speaker 1: examples for you, But first we have a quick break

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Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor, Eric Beck, Thank you sponsor.

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Speaker 3: Along with Marshall Applewhite, Bonnie Lou Needles co founded the

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Speaker 3: UFO cult Heaven's Gate in the nineteen seventies, and she

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Speaker 3: believed herself to have a divine purpose. She was known

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Speaker 3: as Tea. She also went by Peep while he went

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Speaker 3: by Bo, and the two of them went by the

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Speaker 3: two went together. She was a registered nurse and raised

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Speaker 3: in Texas. She got married, had four children, but then

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Speaker 3: reportedly started doing seances in the early nineteen seventies. According

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Speaker 3: to some sources, she thought a monk nate brother Francis

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Speaker 3: from the nineteenth century was communicating with her and giving

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Speaker 3: her instructions. She was big into astrology and the occult,

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Speaker 3: and she visited several fortune tellers, at least one of

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Speaker 3: whom told her she was soon meet someone matching apple

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Speaker 3: White's description, and the stories of how they met very

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Speaker 3: from inside hospital to a theater after an accident something

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Speaker 3: like that. Allegedly, Nettles was asked to perform a reading

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Speaker 3: on apple White and agreed.

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Speaker 6: She determined they were spiritual matches. Apple White was gay,

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Speaker 6: though he did marry and have two children. His family

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Speaker 6: was very religious and conservative, and despite his best efforts,

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Speaker 6: he did engage in a few homosexual relationships.

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Speaker 1: Nettles and apple White had a non sexual relationship. He

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Speaker 1: later wrote of it, quote, the only relationship they shared,

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Speaker 1: certainly having no physical attraction toward each other, was the

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Speaker 1: compulsion to discover what had brought them together. James Lewis,

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Speaker 1: author on a book of UFFO cults and a professor

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Speaker 1: at the Institute for the Study of American Religion, said quote,

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Speaker 1: apple White was so alienated from his homosexuality that he

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Speaker 1: was teaching people not to have sex. He would put

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Speaker 1: people of opposite sexes together and force them to learn

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Speaker 1: to become neutral, non sexual. Apparently apple White had himself castrated,

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Speaker 1: and that perhaps others in the group were castrated as well.

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Speaker 3: And in nineteen seventy three, Nettles told her daughter and

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Speaker 3: son she was leaving and that was the last they

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Speaker 3: ever saw of her with apple White. She said that

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Speaker 3: God was leading them in a certain, big direction. She

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Speaker 3: said a cryptic religious message to her daughter several months later,

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Speaker 3: claiming that she and apple White were witnesses. Members were

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Speaker 3: required to dress alike and cut their hair, which I

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Speaker 3: think people know about. Together, they formed Heaven's gates. Nettles

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Speaker 3: said she'd communicated with aliens about the next level, and

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Speaker 3: apple White to Deca Claire she was higher rank than

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Speaker 3: him in nineteen seventy six. Her eye had to be

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Speaker 3: removed in nineteen eighty three due to cancer spreading throughout

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Speaker 3: her body, and according to her daughter, the letters changed

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Speaker 3: in the eighties and that she got a sense her

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Speaker 3: mother wanted out, but there wasn't a graceful way to leave,

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Speaker 3: as she said.

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Speaker 2: Yes. So.

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Speaker 1: Nettles died of cancer twelve years before apple White and

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Speaker 1: thirty eight others killed themselves in a mass suicide event,

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Speaker 1: believing that it would allow them to access a UFO

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Speaker 1: following in the wake of the Hailey Bop commet, believing

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Speaker 1: that it would grant them passage to the quote yes

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Speaker 1: next Kingdom or Right before this event was carried out,

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Speaker 1: the website was updated with a message that they were

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Speaker 1: happy to leave this world and join quote tease Crew.

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Speaker 1: Experts believe her death was a significant touchstone in terms

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Speaker 1: of beliefs around the body being quote just a vehicle,

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Speaker 1: which is what apple White said about Nettle's making space

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Speaker 1: for the tragic event that was about to occur. Nettle's

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Speaker 1: daughter tried to contact her to get her out, but

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Speaker 1: was told her messages wouldn't be passed along unless she

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Speaker 1: told them what she planned to say. When the daughter

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Speaker 1: said it's personal, they hung up so sad.

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Speaker 3: So next, we want to talk about Amy Simple macpherson,

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Speaker 3: who was a faith healer, evangelist and a founder of

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Speaker 3: Four Square Gospel Church and builder of the Angelust Temple.

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Speaker 3: She was born into a religious family in eighteen ninety,

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Speaker 3: but she soon had questions about their faith, and at

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Speaker 3: the same time she was a vocal opponent of evolution.

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Speaker 3: At eighteen, she married and got pregnant, and on their honeymoon,

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Speaker 3: her husband died. When she returned to the US, she

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Speaker 3: remarried and had another child, but soon grew restless and

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Speaker 3: absconded with both the children, leaving her husband for a

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Speaker 3: religious calling.

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Speaker 1: She traveled the country in a touring car, the gospel

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Speaker 1: car that had the message Jesus is coming soon and

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Speaker 1: get ready, stopping to speak at churches along the way,

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Speaker 1: and she really knew her way around a crowd. She

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Speaker 1: would speak in tongue. She would perform faith healing demonstrations

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Speaker 1: in which she appeared to have cured people. She was

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Speaker 1: breaking attendance records to other evangelical leaders. As a woman,

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Speaker 1: she was a rarity in that space. At a San

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Speaker 1: Diego event, over thirty thousand people showed up to see her,

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Speaker 1: and the Marines had to be called.

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Speaker 2: It was described as the best show in town.

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Speaker 1: And just for example, she would ride motorcycles into these events.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they had lights and special effects.

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Speaker 1: She was one of the first women in the US

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Speaker 1: to travel across the country in a car without a

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Speaker 1: male chaperone, and she frequently argued, who says the woman

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Speaker 1: can't preach gospel? Charlie Chaplin was a secret friend of

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Speaker 1: hers and helped her with her sermons.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I can't believe I've never heard of her before this,

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Speaker 3: because yeah, it's so rare to see traveling preachers and

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Speaker 3: halos that aren't men.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: I shocked I hadn't heard of her either, because it

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Speaker 1: sounds like she had a pretty big pull during.

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Speaker 3: Her thirty thousand That was a huge number for sure.

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Speaker 3: So eventually she decided to retire from the crowds and travel,

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Speaker 3: settling in la where she raised fund for the Angelius

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Speaker 3: Church one point five million Wow, where she gave sermons

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Speaker 3: seven days a week. In nineteen twenty four, she launched

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Speaker 3: her own radio station called KFQG four Square Gospel, and

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Speaker 3: she also hosted successful radio broadcast, making her one of

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Speaker 3: the first women to receive a broadcast license in the US.

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Speaker 3: Around this time, she formed her own church for Square

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Speaker 3: and the name comes from four facets of Jesus, Transformative Salvation,

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Speaker 3: divine healing, Baptism, and the return of Christ. Mini male

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Speaker 3: leaders in the space were vocal opponents, which not surprised.

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Speaker 2: Nope, not at all.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty six, she disappeared on a swim, an

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Speaker 1: event that captured national headlines, attention, and rampant speculation about

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Speaker 1: what happened to Sister Amy, as she was called a believer,

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Speaker 1: literally drowned themselves, it was said in sorrow, But I

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Speaker 1: believe they were just trying to swim out and help

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Speaker 1: with the effort. Members through dynamite in the water, hoping

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Speaker 1: to surface. Her Rumors spread like wildfire, that she disappeared

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Speaker 1: to have an abortion, that she had had an affair,

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Speaker 1: that she'd gotten plastic surgery, that maybe there'd be a

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Speaker 1: ransom or foul play was involved. The police received a

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Speaker 1: ransom note demanding five hundred thousand dollars for her release,

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Speaker 1: and it was signed by the Avengers. Oh I know,

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Speaker 1: getting up to no good. Amy showed up in Mexico

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Speaker 1: a month later. Her identity was proven by her knowledge

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Speaker 1: of her childhood pet pigeons name which I love, and

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Speaker 1: at the location of one of her scars. Amy claimed

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Speaker 1: she'd been kidnapped by three Americans who demanded a ransom,

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Speaker 1: but she was able to escape, by her account, sawing

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Speaker 1: out of the rope restraining her and walking twenty miles.

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Speaker 1: After a reporter questioned if this was possible, Amy said,

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Speaker 1: many have said that a woman could not have built

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Speaker 1: Angelus Temple and do these other seemingly impossible things, But

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Speaker 1: I did.

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Speaker 5: She sure did so.

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Speaker 3: When she returned home, over fifty thousand cheering spectators met

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Speaker 3: her at the train station with a parade. However, her

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Speaker 3: return was not without so expion, and officials looked into

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Speaker 3: her kidnapping. She voluntarily showed up at a grain jury

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Speaker 3: and the rumors swirling, particularly around an engineer of a

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Speaker 3: radio station owned by McPherson's church, who disappeared at the

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Speaker 3: same time she did. However, there wasn't enough evidence to

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Speaker 3: back this claim, so the judge dropped the case against her.

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Speaker 3: McPherson wrote a book about it in nineteen twenty seven

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Speaker 3: called In the Service of the King, The Story of

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Speaker 3: My Life. She died in nineteen forty four of what

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Speaker 3: was deemed as probable accidental overdose or Over forty five

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Speaker 3: thousand people came to see her lying in state, and

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Speaker 3: when she died, the four Square Church was worth nine

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Speaker 3: million dollars. In these days there are over nine million members.

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Speaker 3: There are over seventeen hundred Four Square churches in the

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Speaker 3: US and over sixty six thousand meeting places worldwide. She's

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Speaker 3: been credited with bringing modern air conservatism into the era

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Speaker 3: of modern media. It's a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So she's been coming up a lot.

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Speaker 1: When we were talking about the kind of these personality

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Speaker 1: based shows that do you know the opinion shows, especially

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Speaker 1: when it comes to conservatism and how religion often plays

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Speaker 1: into that. And this one too is when I've never

396
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Speaker 1: heard of this church, but I know that you could

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Speaker 1: foreshore argue whether or not qualifies as a cult. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing outright that screams to meet cult about it, right?

399
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Speaker 1: It does come up on several lists, But I'm wondering

400
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Speaker 1: if that's more about her more of a cult of personality,

401
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:41,679
Speaker 1: like she was just so charismatic and people have really

402
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 1: really adored her and would do anything for her.

403
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Speaker 2: And again, like we could go, we could.

404
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Speaker 1: Do deep dives of all of these and maybe there's

405
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Speaker 1: just something I don't know about it about this church.

406
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Speaker 1: But right, that was just kind of my take on

407
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Speaker 1: it where I was sort of surprised is kept popping

408
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Speaker 1: up on other lists about and cult leaders.

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Speaker 3: I mean, and again, yeah, there's a conversation of how

410
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 3: she's getting this money, where she's getting this money, which

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Speaker 3: also is kind of that political turning and conversation of

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Speaker 3: that as well. But it is also unprecedented that a

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Speaker 3: woman started a church and it still exists today to

414
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Speaker 3: the popularity that it's saying. I will say I've not

415
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Speaker 3: heard of the church either before this episode, but it

416
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Speaker 3: is interesting to see how it continues to pop up.

417
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 3: And again, yeah, you're right, cult it seems a little

418
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Speaker 3: more dark than what this is presenting. But we do

419
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Speaker 3: also know like when it comes to followings and especially

420
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Speaker 3: of the hell Fibrimstone era that she grew up in

421
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Speaker 3: with the traveling preachers, which has now formed into different

422
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 3: religions in itself. It also can be seemingly cultish, yeah,

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Speaker 3: because of the supernatural element to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's another which we keep saying.

425
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Speaker 1: But I just know that this is such a fine

426
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Speaker 1: line of some people would call this a cult and

427
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: other people wouldn't. And sometimes that line for some people

428
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Speaker 1: can be oh, that looks so different and weird in

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Speaker 1: heavy growths compared to what I am used.

430
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Speaker 2: To, Right, so it must be a cult. It makes

431
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Speaker 2: me nervous.

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Speaker 3: It makes me nervous. And again, this is also based

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Speaker 3: on old religion. And when I say old religion, you

434
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 3: don't see the practicing of tongues the healing in general.

435
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Speaker 3: I mean, don't get me wrong, I've seen it. I've

436
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 3: seen that it still exists, but you just don't see

437
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: it as much, and especially in popularity.

438
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess maybe that's maybe that's one of the

439
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: reasons it is classified as a cult to some people.

440
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: Is that kind of whole faith healing speaking in tongues aspects,

441
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: which you know, can be a lot of religions can

442
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 1: have people like that who are just like really bombastic

443
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: and entertaining or in that way, and not to dismiss

444
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: at all, like people's beliefs. But I'm just saying like

445
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: as part of somebody who can gather that sort of

446
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: passion and excitement, and that can be almost like an

447
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: entertainment or a role that you're right, people excited about

448
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: this thing.

449
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 6: Right.

450
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 3: And again though if we look at what she did

451
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 3: compared to some religions today, there's not that much difference,

452
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 3: So you have to question that.

453
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: Yes, now, probably after this I'll look it up and

454
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: something super dark involved, but I feel I think that

455
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: would be on the top of like.

456
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 3: Right information, and you're right, like, we don't see that.

457
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 3: It's just more of her accomplishments that we see more

458
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 3: so than what the religion or the practice did.

459
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

460
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and definitely, like you said, kind of a big

461
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: impact of like having this first radio station as a

462
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: woman like license and being in this space and then

463
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: providing a jumping off platform for conservatism and modern media today.

464
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 3: And it could be also the language back then if

465
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: competing I guess church or belief system, you learn to

466
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 3: call it something insidious and so therefore cult maybe the

467
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 3: automatic name given just because you don't like it, and

468
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: it is again done by someone who's not given according

469
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 3: to them authority which is a woman, right, which is

470
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 3: a whole different conversation.

471
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: But once again, yeah, no that I I had that

472
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: top thought too. I don't feel I have enough knowledge

473
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: of this particular event, but I do wonder if there

474
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: was a layer, if there's a woman doing this thing

475
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: that's seen as a man's face.

476
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 2: Cult, it's weird.

477
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 3: Yes, these are just yes, these are like you and

478
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 3: I just hypoanalyzing.

479
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 5: Yes, what this is happening.

480
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I think certainly there's at least a

481
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: layer of that, and most of these there's a layer

482
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: of racism. And this isn't Christianity like I see it

483
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: in the United States specifically.

484
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 5: And some of these are hanas too though just.

485
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I don't want to dismiss.

486
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 3: Yes, both of those things exist in these two episodes.

487
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, absolutely good point to make this. We do

488
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: have one more woman cult leader we want to share

489
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: with you, but first we have one more quick break

490
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: or work from a response there.

491
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: And we're back. Thank you sponsor.

492
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: We thought we would finish out this two part series

493
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: about women leading cults with Anne Hamilton Burne, the charismatic

494
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: leader of the Australian Doomsday cult. The Family Hamilton Burne

495
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: was a woman of many talents. She could sing and

496
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: play the harp. She was put together, as they say,

497
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: with style, blonde hair and pearls and Chanel perfume. One

498
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: of her ex followers said of her, in ancient times

499
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: we hear about enchantresses who could enslave people with one glance.

500
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: She had eyes that looked through your soul. After her

501
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: mother set her hair on fire, she was diagnosed with

502
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: paranoid schizophrenia and ended up spending twenty seven years in

503
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: a psychiatric asylum before she died. Anne spent some time

504
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: in orphanages, and her first husband died in a car

505
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: accident when she was twenty. She'd given birth to one daughter,

506
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: and as rumors go, had suffered many miscarriages by.

507
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 3: Then, and in the nineteen sixties Hamilton Barne found the

508
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 3: family and claimed that she was Jesus reborn as a woman.

509
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 3: She was reportedly inspired by a Russian born medium by

510
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 3: the name of Helena Bolovotsky, who founded the Theosophical Society

511
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: in New York in eighteen seventy five. Bolovotsky introduced many

512
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: to Hinduism and Buddhism. When Hamilton Byrne took up yoga

513
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties as a bomb to her grief.

514
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 5: She pretty quickly.

515
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: Fell in love with the ideas of Eastern mysticism. She

516
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 3: started teaching it in the nineteen sixties and by all accounts,

517
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: was a pretty good teacher. She was really good at

518
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 3: getting a read on people's vulnerabilities. She allowed gay men

519
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: in the face of the anti homosexuality laws in plays

520
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: in Australia at the time. She also managed to recruit

521
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 3: a physicist and a master at Queen's College at Melbourne University,

522
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 3: doctor Rayner Johnson. He was approaching retirement and curious to

523
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 3: explore new quote weird areas, and interest amongst the scientific

524
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 3: community about spiritualism was on the rise, and he just

525
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 3: became completely by Hamilton Byurne, even naming her the next Messiah.

526
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: For what he declared to be purely academic purposes. He

527
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: experimented with LSC and took notes about it, including this quote,

528
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 3: Her face became divinely beautiful, with sublime authority, unquestionably the wisest,

529
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: the serenest, and most gracious and generous soul I've ever met.

530
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 3: He and his wife bought a home near Hamilton Burne,

531
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 3: and together they birth the family.

532
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: The family lived in obscurity in Melbourne and their motto

533
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: was Unseen, Unknown, Unheard. Hamilton Byurne targeted well off professionals,

534
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: telling them that she had quote been waiting for them

535
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: and that they were special. Doctor Johnson lent a scientific

536
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: and legitimate heir to her claims. Her teachings were a

537
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: combination of Christianity, Eastern mysticism, and a sort of apocalypticism,

538
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: and the initiation allegedly involved all members, even children, to

539
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: indulge in a potentially deadly amount of LSD and hallucinogens

540
00:28:59,080 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: for a.

541
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: Lengthy amount of time.

542
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: After that, she controlled practically all aspects of their lives,

543
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: and one survivor's words quote, there was only one rule.

544
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: Do absolutely everything she said. That included what to think,

545
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: what to wear, what to eat, who to marry, who

546
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: not to marry, total obedience. She gave sermons or discourses

547
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: as they were called, from a purple throne and a

548
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: lodge funded by members money. Many members of the cult

549
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: tried to take their own lives, either during their time

550
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: there or after, and a few did upsettingly. To keep

551
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: members in line, she'd beat them, sometimes with the stiletto shoe,

552
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: but she often left this test to the anties, who

553
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: were middle aged women afraid of their own punishment if

554
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: they didn't enact it on others. She would starve members, emotionally,

555
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: abuse and manipulate them. The children might also get a

556
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: daily dose of valium or mogdon to keep them from

557
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: fighting back or to just kind of keep them calm.

558
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: At age fourteen, this switched over to huge continuous doses

559
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: of LSD, and for many this was the z as,

560
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: resulting in du pressia, trauma, nightmares, social withdrawal, and personality changes.

561
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: So after two children escaped in nineteen eighty seven, police

562
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: raided the family. Over the past few decades, Hamilton Burne

563
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: had a mass of twenty eight children. The first had

564
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: arrived in the nineteen seventies, and some of them as

565
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: gifts and some of them sham adoptions. At the time,

566
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: Australia's regulation around adoptions were lacking, and the stigma around

567
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 3: unmarried motherhood was.

568
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 5: Pretty quite powerful.

569
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: According to a detective that tried to bring charges against

570
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 3: Hamilton Burne, quote, you had babies born in a cult hospitals,

571
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: delivered by cult midwives handed over to cult social workers,

572
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 3: hamilton Burn bleached the hair of all of them and

573
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: adorned them in matching clothes, telling them she was their

574
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: birth mother. She also told them she was royalty and

575
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: owned castles. She kept the children separate from the main

576
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: compound at a wooden lodge two hours away, where they

577
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: were homeschooled. She desired to be the perfect mother, but

578
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 3: had no real interest in actually putting any effort into that,

579
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: and thanks to property donations from followers in Land, hamilton

580
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: Burn collected one hundred and fifty million Australian dollars and

581
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: she was arrested for minor fraud charges in.

582
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 5: Nineteen ninety three.

583
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 3: She and our ex husband, who one follower described as

584
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: a handsome, rich, compliant handbag, got off with only five

585
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: thousand AU and fines, absolutely no jail time, and one

586
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 3: of the rescue teenagers after the nineteen eighty seven raid explained,

587
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: it's hard to say how devoted we are to her,

588
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 3: how we hung off her every look and every thought

589
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: she had about us. We wanted so much for her

590
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: to love us, but I don't think she ever really did.

591
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: Julian Massange, a founder of Wiki Leaks, admitted his mother's

592
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: boyfriend had been a member of this cult. Assange called

593
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: him a sinister presence and claimed that they ran from him.

594
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: Hamilton Byurne spent over a decade in a nursing home,

595
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: where she eventually died. The Family. If you want to

596
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: know more, there is a documentary on it, we said,

597
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: this podcast, documentary is Gilora and almost all of these,

598
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: so the information is out there for you. Yes, there's

599
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: a documentary and book called The Family by documentary filmmaker

600
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: Rosie Jones and journalist Chris Johnston. The creators were unable

601
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: to interview her due to her dementia and lack of

602
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: ability to consent, or they weren't able to film it

603
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: or write it down, but they did get to sit

604
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: down with her, and they described the power of their experience.

605
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just feel like there's so many themes

606
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: we could unpack here because we've really run the gamut

607
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: of like, yes, sexism and racism and homophobia, and this

608
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: idea of the mother did come up a lot, and

609
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: just so much like misogyny and.

610
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: Toxic masculinity.

611
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we could really come back and dig into that.

612
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: And I'm sure each of the podcasts and the documentaries

613
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: talk about the childhood and the background of the trauma

614
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: that kind of birthed these people to be who they are,

615
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: and that loosely because you never know, not to give

616
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 3: any excuse, there's not an excuse, but there's always a beginning, right,

617
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 3: And I think that's that's an interesting way to look

618
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: at how these are created and again with different personalities

619
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 3: that can bring about these perfectly placed disasters and or

620
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: perfectly placed timeframes. I guess that's the best way to say,

621
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 3: because we don't know the depth of what has happened

622
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: truly outside of those who were inside of it. So

623
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 3: there's a lot of things the question and to look at,

624
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: but yeah, just to see the background of what is happening,

625
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: because again we see so much of a sensationalization of

626
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: what has happened, because we know, you know Jonestown, we

627
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: know Waco, we know the big details, but we don't

628
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 3: know the small details of course, the aftermath for the.

629
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 5: Members what has happened.

630
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: I know there's been a lot more documentation, documentaries, conversations

631
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: from survivors because they do want to tell their stories

632
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: and important for them to tell these stories that we

633
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 3: have to pay attention to that. And yet these are

634
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: not just incidents, and though we are giving off, you know,

635
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 3: details of what may have happened of or it's just

636
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: a small picture of what may have happened.

637
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 5: Rather these were people's lives that were affected.

638
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 3: And we do see the lingering effects for different people

639
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: who have been affected by what we would call it

640
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,919
Speaker 3: consider a cult that still exists that's not being recognized

641
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 3: because of people's opinions and or maybe politics that we

642
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: again as you talked about, they have some of these

643
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 3: cults had political figureheads behind them.

644
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, Pip, yep.

645
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things for me, this whole

646
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: this is all very complicated, right because there is a

647
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: lot of trauma, and you don't want to absolve ever

648
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: anybody of blame, but there is that, there's trauma, and

649
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: there's brainwashing. So if that's complicated, but then you would

650
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: see like for example, when you're talking about Betty Lunette's

651
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: and I just noticed like people were really into, oh,

652
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: she did the seances and she did she was involved

653
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: in they cult.

654
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: There's nothing like inherently wrong with any of that, right,

655
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 2: And I know what they were getting at.

656
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: They were saying, she was looking for quote heavy quote

657
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: alternative like enlightenment enlightenment, and she was interested in those things.

658
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: But I do think that things like that can be

659
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: problematic when we're having these conversations because that doesn't necessarily

660
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: mean cult. I know, we keep coming back to that,

661
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: but I just think that it's really really important.

662
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: Right, So she us a prime example of someone who

663
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 3: looked at alternative what would be classified as New Waged

664
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: ideas during that time. And yeah, because it's abnormal, and

665
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: because we are in a country that is so inundated

666
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: into Western Christianity and I have to specify that as

667
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 3: a Western Christianity, and this very idea of notion that

668
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,479
Speaker 3: almost takes to the point that, you know, the idea

669
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 3: that Jesus is white, you know, that kind of level

670
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 3: of what Christianity what is right and wrong. So there,

671
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 3: for that is cult and that is super, very super

672
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: dangerous when we talk about that, because we know, again

673
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: the New Age ideas and reading poems or you lo

674
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: can through tarot cards does not equate cult in the story.

675
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: You know, just because you look at astrology or you

676
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: trust in astrology does not again quit cult. But there's

677
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 3: this whole underlying, dark, sinister idea behind it. When you

678
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: raised up in again Western Christianity ideas and beliefs, which

679
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: again is dangerous, absolutely for sure, and the same idea

680
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: because I think me for me growing up, which is

681
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: why I was so fascinated by Eastern religion, is because

682
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 3: it was told me that it is forbidden in itself, you.

683
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 5: Know what I mean?

684
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: And then learning about it, I'm like, no, this makes sense,

685
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 3: and I'm not a religious person, but the ideas behind it,

686
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 3: some of the beautiful sentiment behind understanding Eastern religion, which

687
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: has existed longer than again Western Christianity, right.

688
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 5: Like in itself is a.

689
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: Whole different conversation we could dig into because yeah, that

690
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: also is fear mongering in itself. And now again the

691
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 3: atrocities that we talked about, they are for real. We

692
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: need to talk about what has happened, how it has

693
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: traumatized others, and why we need to talk about it.

694
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, there's definitely the balance of we have to

695
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: remember the biases that could be placed into these reports

696
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: as well.

697
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: Exactly, Yeah, because it's not.

698
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: That we're seeing these aren't cults or that the terrible,

699
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: terrible things happened within them, because for a lot of them,

700
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: they did but I think it's just the language I

701
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: picked up on in it that I was kind of

702
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: it kind of made me a little anxious, like I

703
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: get that's true, and I get it, and this did

704
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: end up being bad, but that doesn't mean it always is.

705
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: Right.

706
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, oo, very complex, a lot of nuances.

707
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 5: So many things.

708
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 3: Glad we got into it, and I hope we Yeah, we'll

709
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 3: definitely look at the overall ideas of women and cults

710
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 3: in general, just the help being a member, because we

711
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: do see a lot of times it's heavily women.

712
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

713
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're definitely going to return to that. And uh,

714
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm both excited and nervous.

715
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 5: But I don't like anything.

716
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 2: Yes, as most episodes on here.

717
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the meantime, listeners, if you would like to

718
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 1: contact us, you can or email Stuff Medium mom Stuff

719
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Instagram

720
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never Told You or on Twitter at

721
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,

722
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: Thank you, and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've

723
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: Never Told You his production of iHeartRadio. For more podcast

724
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,760
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725
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,280
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