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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from hot

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: to bring a truck reporting and I'm fair Dowdy. And

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Speaker 1: if you're a regular listener of this podcast, you probably

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Speaker 1: know that we've covered our fair share of historical murders,

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Speaker 1: serial killers, and similar topics, especially during this time of

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Speaker 1: year October series tradition. Yes, but it's rare that we

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Speaker 1: talk about killers who have taken their crimes a step

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Speaker 1: further to include an act that some considered to be

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Speaker 1: even more disturbing, and that's cannibalism. We've actually never really

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Speaker 1: explored this topic, though Candice and Josh did back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight when they talked about the infamous

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Speaker 1: Donner Party, a wagon train that got trapped by the harsh,

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Speaker 1: snowy winter weather in the Sierra Nevada Mountains in eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty six. Now, with that story, out of the eighty

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Speaker 1: seven people who set out on that trip, only forty

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Speaker 1: even lived to tell about it, and some of those

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Speaker 1: people did resort to cannibalism in order to survive. So

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Speaker 1: our story today is somewhat similar, and in fact, it's

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Speaker 1: often confused with the Donner Party story. It involves a

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Speaker 1: man named Alfred Packer who was among a group of

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Speaker 1: prospectors who went into the San Juan Mountains in the

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Speaker 1: Colorado Rockies near the end of eighteen seventy three and

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Speaker 1: also ran into some pretty treacherous winter weather on his trip.

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Speaker 1: Unlike the Donner Party situation, though, when the thaw came

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Speaker 1: the following spring, Packer was the only guy from his

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Speaker 1: party to emerge from the mountains alive. A little more suspicious,

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Speaker 1: and it certainly adds to the mystery of the story.

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Speaker 1: It does and what kind of set up this mystery

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Speaker 1: was a series of suspicions, accusations, and confessions that didn't

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Speaker 1: really match up that followed Packer emerging from the mountains.

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Speaker 1: According to Michael Mayo in his book American Murder, all

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Speaker 1: of this led to Packer becoming the American West only

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Speaker 1: convicted cannibal quite a distinction exactly, But it also created

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Speaker 1: one of the great mysteries of the American West because

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Speaker 1: to this day people still debate about whether Packer was

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Speaker 1: guilty as charged. So we're going to look into that

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Speaker 1: a little bit. And in order to do that, of course,

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Speaker 1: we have to start where the story begins. So it

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Speaker 1: all started in November of eighteen seventy three, when a

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Speaker 1: group of about twenty or so would be a prospector

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Speaker 1: set out from Bingham Canyon, Utah, and headed toward Breckenridge, Colorado,

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Speaker 1: in the Rocky Mountains in search of what else gold

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Speaker 1: and serving as a guide on this expedition was Alfred Packer.

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Speaker 1: And just a little note before you start writing your

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Speaker 1: email thing you were pronouncing it incorrectly. There is some

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Speaker 1: debate about Alfred Packer's name, even though he's generally known

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Speaker 1: as Alfred like with the r D e r D

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Speaker 1: official documents list his name as the more traditional Alfred,

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Speaker 1: and it's supposed that he might have started going by

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Speaker 1: Alfred when a careless tattoo artists misspelled the name on

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Speaker 1: his arm. Even though that's just kind of a rumor,

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Speaker 1: I do like that idea. Though you know your tattoos

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Speaker 1: spelled wrong, You're just gonna go with it. Alfred legend.

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Speaker 1: According to information from the Alfred Packer Collection of the

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Speaker 1: Colorado State Archives, Packer was born in Pennsylvania on November

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Speaker 1: twenty one, eight forty two, and during the Civil War

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Speaker 1: he enlisted in both the sixteenth U. S. Infantry of

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Speaker 1: Minnesota and the eighth Regiment Iowa Cavalry, but he was

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Speaker 1: discharged from both of these due to epilepsy. The rest

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Speaker 1: of the details of his life are a little bit sketchy.

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Speaker 1: The next real evidence that we have of his whereabouts

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Speaker 1: is from when he joined up with those miners in Utah.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to be a part of their prospecting party,

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Speaker 1: but he didn't have a lot of money for provisions

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Speaker 1: to make the trip, so, according to an article by

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Speaker 1: Diana to Stephano in the Journal of Social History, he

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Speaker 1: offered up twenty five bucks and his services as a

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Speaker 1: guide to join them in their journey, and he told

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Speaker 1: them that he knew Colorado's high country well, so his

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Speaker 1: offer was accepted. They didn't know their way around, and

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Speaker 1: he did, so it seemed like a good match, he

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Speaker 1: claimed he did, because, according to de Stefano's article, it

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Speaker 1: didn't take long for Packer to really robe his traveling

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Speaker 1: companions the wrong way, and there were a few reasons

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Speaker 1: for that. First of all, there was a rumor going

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Speaker 1: around that Packer had served some hard time back in

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake City because he was suspected of murdering his

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Speaker 1: trapping partner, so not the kind of guy you might

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Speaker 1: want with you out in the wilderness. Second, he was

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Speaker 1: also inappropriately interested in the amount of cash that the

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Speaker 1: other men were carrying with them. He would apparently ask

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Speaker 1: them outright, how much money do you have on you?

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Speaker 1: And Then, thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, especially considering that

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Speaker 1: the group was making this track with limited provisions and

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Speaker 1: really relying on Packer's expertise, he seemed to have exaggerated

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Speaker 1: his skill as a guide. According to the article we

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Speaker 1: just mentioned, he got them lost more than once, not

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Speaker 1: something that would endear him to his traveling companion. So

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Speaker 1: they're getting lost, they're running out of food, and the

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Speaker 1: weather just keeps getting worse and worse. By the time

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Speaker 1: they make it to the winter camp of Chief Uray

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Speaker 1: along the on Campagre River in Colorado in mid December,

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Speaker 1: they were starving pretty much. The chief made it really

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Speaker 1: clear to them that he thought it was a really

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Speaker 1: bad idea for them to continue on with their journey.

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Speaker 1: At that point, he advised them to just stay where

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Speaker 1: they were and wait until spring, and about ten guys

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Speaker 1: out of the party followed this advice. A small group

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Speaker 1: of men led by Oliver D. Lutzenheiser was itching to

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Speaker 1: get started, though, so they set out with directions from

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Speaker 1: the chief toward the Las Penis Indian Agency on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the mountain. According to Di Stefana's article,

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Speaker 1: Packer wanted to be a part of this group, but

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Speaker 1: Lutzenheiser didn't trust him and threatened to shoot him if

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Speaker 1: he tried to follow him. So he really did not

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Speaker 1: like Packer at all, know that maybe that first point

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Speaker 1: on the jail time and all the lies that he'd

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Speaker 1: been seeing along the trip not exactly the kind of

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Speaker 1: guy you want with you and already rough. But another

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Speaker 1: eager group of men also set out in the same direction,

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Speaker 1: and Packer again served as their guide. The other men

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Speaker 1: in this group where Shannon Bell, James Humphrey, George Noon

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Speaker 1: or perhaps his last name was Moon. We see it

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Speaker 1: both ways, Israel Swan and Frank Miller. Chief e Ray

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Speaker 1: gave them supplies and advised them to stay close to

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Speaker 1: the river. But it's clear from what happened that spring

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Speaker 1: that things soon went awry. What happened to Balina Well

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Speaker 1: April six, eighteen seventy four, it was only one disheveled

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Speaker 1: prospector who stumbled into Las Pinos Indian Agency near Gunnison, Colorado,

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Speaker 1: and that was, of course Alfred Packer, our old friends.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing that Packer asked for when he

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Speaker 1: stumbled in from the wilderness was a drink, specifically a

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Speaker 1: drink of whiskey, And of course people wanted to know

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Speaker 1: what happened, what his story was. He told them that

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Speaker 1: he had set out from Chief Eray's winter camp with

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Speaker 1: the five other men, but the other men had soon

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Speaker 1: abandoned him when he wasn't able to keep up due

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Speaker 1: to snow blindness, and he said that he spent the

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Speaker 1: rest of the winter after that trapped in the mountains,

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Speaker 1: living off the land. But many people, and especially those

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Speaker 1: other members of the Utah Party, the ones who had

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Speaker 1: opted to wade out the winter with the chief who

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Speaker 1: finally did make their way to the agency, those guys

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Speaker 1: especially were immediately suspicious of this story. And there were

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Speaker 1: a few reasons for that. One. He just seemed too

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Speaker 1: well fed for somebody who had been existing off the

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Speaker 1: land off of boiled buds and pine gum all winter,

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Speaker 1: And according to Mayo, Chief Eray astutely observed this that

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Speaker 1: he seemed a little too hefty and said you two

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Speaker 1: damn fat. Another thing that seemed really off, Packer suddenly

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Speaker 1: had all this cash on him. So not only was

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Speaker 1: the pack in a few extra pounds, he had all

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Speaker 1: this money even though he had been pretty much broke before,

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Speaker 1: to really strange points. So of course people are asking

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Speaker 1: more and more questions about this, and so, feeling under pressure,

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Speaker 1: Packer offers up a very different version of events. This

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Speaker 1: one includes a kind of confession. According to De Stefano's article,

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Speaker 1: Packer said that just ten days after the six men

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Speaker 1: left the Chiefs camp, quote one after another, the men

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Speaker 1: quote had been killed by the remainder to be used

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Speaker 1: as food by the rest. After the men were picked

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Speaker 1: off one by one, eventually, of course, there were only

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Speaker 1: two of them left, and Packer said he shot his

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Speaker 1: last remaining companion in self defense. So, uh, disturbing story,

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Speaker 1: but one that sort of spreads the guilt around at least. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's not seen as a murderer, not a murder in

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Speaker 1: cold blood anyway, the kind of the camps all together.

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Speaker 1: Later that summer, though, a search party was set out

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Speaker 1: to look for the bodies of Packer's former companions. Packer

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Speaker 1: led the search party, interestingly and epic as they needed

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Speaker 1: him to to try to show where he went, but

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Speaker 1: they couldn't find anything. Still though, even without any physical evidence,

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Speaker 1: Packer was arrested under the suspicion of murder anyway, and

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Speaker 1: the authorities just really had a feeling about this guy.

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Speaker 1: They had, They had a suspicion that something was up.

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Speaker 1: And confirmation of those feelings, or at least what seemed

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Speaker 1: to be a confirmation, came in August of eighteen seventy four,

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Speaker 1: when an artist for Harper's magazine named John A. Randolph

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Speaker 1: discovered the bodies of the missing prospectors near Lake City, Colorado.

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Speaker 1: An article by Andrew Curry and Archaeology includes just a

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Speaker 1: little snippet from the beginning of the Harper's account of

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Speaker 1: the find, which read quote, They were lying in a gloomy,

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Speaker 1: secluded spot, densely shaded by tall trees, at the foot

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Speaker 1: of a steep hill, near the bank of the Gunnison River.

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Speaker 1: Marks of violence on each body indicated that a most

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Speaker 1: terrible crime had been committed there. The bodies lay within

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Speaker 1: a few feet of each other in their blankets and clothes.

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Speaker 1: There had been no attempt to conceal the remains, and

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Speaker 1: Curry's article also mentions that the Harper's account came quote

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Speaker 1: complete with lurid illustrations of the badly composed bodies lovely, yeah,

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Speaker 1: pretty graphic. According to Mayo's account, all the bodies were

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Speaker 1: missing most or at least some of their flesh. DeStefano

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Speaker 1: says that an inquest conducted after the bodies were found

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Speaker 1: determined that it looked like the men had been brutally

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Speaker 1: murdered in their sleep, and as a result of this,

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Speaker 1: fine Packer was formally charged with the murder of all

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Speaker 1: five of his former companions. So facing this hefty charge,

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Speaker 1: Packer somehow managed to escape from jail and was on

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Speaker 1: the lamb for nine years. After that, he was finally

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Speaker 1: discovered by a merchant named Frenchy carbon Zone in a

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Speaker 1: saloon in Cheyenne, Wyoming, picked up March eleventh, eighteen eighty three.

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Speaker 1: From there, he was sent back to Colorado to stand trial.

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Speaker 1: But he had a little bit more to say before

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Speaker 1: that trial. Yeah, March sixteenth, eighteen eighty three, he offered

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Speaker 1: up his second confession, and this one was the one

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Speaker 1: that he would more or less stick to throughout his life,

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Speaker 1: though In later confessions, some of the details did change,

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Speaker 1: but they were more ancillary details. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: I guess sort of not to make a bad pun,

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Speaker 1: but the meat of the argument stays at the same

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Speaker 1: warm here on out. Okay, So basically his second story

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Speaker 1: went like this. He said that he and his party

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Speaker 1: got lost in the mountains and had to resort to

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Speaker 1: boiling rosebuds and pine gum as you referred to before,

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Speaker 1: after their food ran out. After wandering around on ridgelines

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Speaker 1: for a while, the prospectors made camp on the banks

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Speaker 1: of the Gunnison River. Packer said he took his gun

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Speaker 1: and he went off by himself to see if he

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Speaker 1: could find a way out. But when he returned, he

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Speaker 1: found four of his companions lying there around a fire,

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Speaker 1: and they had all taken a hatchet to the head.

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Speaker 1: The one remaining, who was Bell, was by the fire

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Speaker 1: roasting a piece of meat which was supposedly yes flesh

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Speaker 1: from one of the men. Upon spotting him, Packer said,

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Speaker 1: Bell immediately came after him with a hatchet, and Packer

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Speaker 1: shot him in self defense and then hit him over

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Speaker 1: the head with his own hatchet. He had then eaten

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Speaker 1: the flesh of the men to survive the harsh winter.

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Speaker 1: So he admitted to cannibalism it was just, and to

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Speaker 1: killing Bell in self defense, but he wanted it to

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Speaker 1: be I mean, murder was the thing that people were

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Speaker 1: really up in arms about here murdering five men. It

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Speaker 1: suggested when you read these accounts that people would have

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Speaker 1: pretty much understood the cannibalism. You know, you have you

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Speaker 1: gotta do what you gotta do to survive when you're

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Speaker 1: out there and in these harsh conditions. But it was

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Speaker 1: the fact that Packer was also suspected of murdering these

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Speaker 1: guys that for their money as well, it seemed. So.

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Speaker 1: The Journey apparently didn't buy this new confession though, because

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Speaker 1: Packer was found guilty and was sentenced to hang. When

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Speaker 1: the judge, who was Judge Melville B. Gary, handed down

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Speaker 1: his sentence on April thirteen, three, legend has it that

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Speaker 1: he said something to the effect of quote, there was

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Speaker 1: seven Democrats in all of Hinsdale County, and you ate

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Speaker 1: five of them. I sentence you to be hung by

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Speaker 1: the neck until you are dead, dead, dead, as a

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Speaker 1: warning against further reducing the democratic population of this county. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is act worrying about the Democrats. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: to be in the version of sentencing that's in the

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Speaker 1: Colorado State Archives. The dead dead dead part is. But

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Speaker 1: according to Curry's article, during the New Deal, Colorado Republicans

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Speaker 1: did form these Alfred Packard clubs, and members of these

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Speaker 1: clubs swore to quote eliminate at least five Democrats. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I hope they didn't have like luncheon parties for their

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Speaker 1: Alfred Packer clubs. But ultimately the Packer was not hanged

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Speaker 1: due to a technicality. Essentially, the territorial murder laws had changed,

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Speaker 1: and the Colorado Supreme Court ruled that prosecutions of murders

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Speaker 1: before May eighty one were invalid. Packer's keith was retried.

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Speaker 1: He did get forty years in prison, he only ended

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Speaker 1: up serving eighteen of those. He was finally paroled in

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Speaker 1: nineteen o one. He died six years later, and according

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Speaker 1: to the Colorado State Archives, the cause of death, which

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Speaker 1: was on April nineteen oh seven, was listed as quote senility,

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Speaker 1: trouble and worry on his death certificate. So a court

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Speaker 1: decided Packer was guilty of murder, and of course many

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Speaker 1: people still assume that he was. After all, it does

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Speaker 1: make for a good grizzly legend, but throughout the years,

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Speaker 1: what really happened on that mountain has really remained a mystery,

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Speaker 1: and many have argued that Packer was convicted on pretty

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Speaker 1: flimsy evidence. George Washington University law professor James starrs who

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Speaker 1: he's been responsible for the exhimation of many controversial historical figures,

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Speaker 1: including Lizzie Borden's parents and Jesse James. He was curious

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Speaker 1: enough about this mystery that he organized a team to

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Speaker 1: exhume and examine the remains of Packers prospecting party in

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Speaker 1: nine and they found a lot of things there. They found,

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Speaker 1: first of all, plenty of evidence of trauma on the bones,

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Speaker 1: which suggested that almost all of the flesh had been removed. Also,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the cut marks were on the victim's back,

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Speaker 1: suggesting that the person removing the flesh didn't want to

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Speaker 1: look at the victim's faces, which is just kind of

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Speaker 1: an interesting look into the mind of psychological angle to cannibalism. Yes,

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Speaker 1: according to Curry's article, Stars concluded that Packer was the

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Speaker 1: killer because a war wound that was found on Bell's

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Speaker 1: remains would have supposedly made it too difficult for him

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Speaker 1: to inflict the wounds that they found on the other men.

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Speaker 1: But not everyone agrees with stars findings. No. The Museum

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Speaker 1: of Western Colorado curator and historian David Bailey is one

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Speaker 1: of those people who has led the charge to prove

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Speaker 1: Packers innocence. So Bailey started digging into Packers story when

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Speaker 1: he was working to tie a thirty eight caliber cult

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Speaker 1: pistol from the museum's collection to the site where the

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Speaker 1: bodies were found. He was working in the late nineties

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Speaker 1: the early aughts, so he couldn't exhume the bodies, you know,

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Speaker 1: which had just been exhumed in nine nine, because they

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Speaker 1: were sealed off over after the last extimation to protect

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Speaker 1: them from relic hunters. He did, however, have access to

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Speaker 1: some soil samples that were left over from the previous excavation,

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Speaker 1: and by having those tested, Bailey was able to prove

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Speaker 1: the pistol was at the site because lead found in

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Speaker 1: the soil was an exact match for the bullets remaining

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Speaker 1: in the gun, so starting sound kind of like Packer's

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Speaker 1: story of having to shoot Bell lined up a little bit. Also,

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Speaker 1: the gun still had three bullets in it. There were

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Speaker 1: two empty chambers which matched up with some of the

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Speaker 1: testimony Packer had given. So bell skeleton had some holes

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Speaker 1: in it, possibly gunshot wounds in the pelvic region. Also,

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Speaker 1: his wallet or his pocket book whatever he was carrying

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Speaker 1: with all that cash, the being Packer was interested in

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Speaker 1: also seemed to have been shot. So this was enough

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Speaker 1: to convince Bailey and many others that Packer was telling

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Speaker 1: the truth, that that second confession was real. He held

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Speaker 1: a mock trial for him in two thousand two, in

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Speaker 1: which Packer was found innocent. Whether he was guilty or innocent,

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Speaker 1: one thing that's for certain is that Packer became sort

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Speaker 1: of a kitchy kind of folk hero in the twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: Since the nineties sixties. For example, students at the University

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Speaker 1: of Colorado at Boulder have eaten at the Alfred Packer Grill,

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Speaker 1: and according to Curry's article that l cannibal burrito is

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Speaker 1: apparently a popular menu item there. Oh goodness. A bust

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Speaker 1: of Packer was also placed in the Colorado state capital

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Speaker 1: in two So he made it into the capital, I

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Speaker 1: mean like he did. That's pretty official. There are also

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Speaker 1: a lot of references to Packer and pop culture, and

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Speaker 1: one of the funniest examples is Trey Parker, who co

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Speaker 1: created the animated TV series South Park, which we all

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Speaker 1: know and love, wrote a play about Packer when he

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Speaker 1: was studying at the University of Colorado called Alfred Packer

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Speaker 1: the Musical. Later, he turned it into a film called

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Speaker 1: Cannibal the Musical. And unsurprisingly, Packer has also just made

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Speaker 1: his way into folk songs too. There's actually been several

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Speaker 1: songs written about Packer, including nineteen sixty four is the

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Speaker 1: Ballad of Alfred Packer, which was written by folk singer

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Speaker 1: Phil Off. The chorus for that song went, they called

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Speaker 1: him a murderer, a cannibal, thief. It just doesn't pay

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Speaker 1: to eat anything but government inspected beef. There's even a

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Speaker 1: cookbook out there called Alfred Packer's High Protein Cookbook. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you may be picking that up. Oh

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Speaker 1: you you do? After I go try the l cannibal burrito.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't. Well, you like to cook,

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Speaker 1: I mean like you like meat, like cooking, but I

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Speaker 1: usually try to avoid any associations with cannibalism, and to

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Speaker 1: my cooking as a rule of thumb, that's a pretty good.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty thumbs in your daily cuisine. There you go. Well,

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Speaker 1: I feel much more comfortable sitting in the studio with

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Speaker 1: you right now. I'm I'm glad I was able to

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Speaker 1: reassure you I'm not a cannibal alright. So to wrap

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Speaker 1: up our Spooky Halloween October series, we have a good

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Speaker 1: piece of listener mail, don't we. We do one that

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Speaker 1: relates to haunted houses and how every now and then

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Speaker 1: you can really spook yourself. And we've been hearing from

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Speaker 1: a lot of listeners who are saying I can't go

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Speaker 1: to sleep at night now because I listened to podcasts

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Speaker 1: before bed and I'm having bad dreams. So sorry for that.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe you'll feel better in November. But this

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Speaker 1: is kind of a fun example of just creeping yourself

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Speaker 1: out a little bit. Yeah, it's a letter from the

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Speaker 1: listener Phil and he says, I thought i'd write to

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Speaker 1: you about your recent ghost Stories podcast. As I work

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Speaker 1: in Cardiff Castle in Wales Capital, we often get requests

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Speaker 1: for ghost stories during tours from our tourists, and our

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Speaker 1: go to tail is of the Second Marquest of Butte,

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Speaker 1: who died at the castle in the chapel, and legend

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Speaker 1: has it he will walk through the walls of the library. However,

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Speaker 1: I don't believe in ghosts. Something I've noticed is that

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Speaker 1: more imagine if people often tell me they see Victorians

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Speaker 1: in the Victorian house and Romans by the Roman wall,

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Speaker 1: but never Romans in the Victorian parts or vice versa,

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Speaker 1: even though they each spent time in those areas. Also,

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Speaker 1: where are the ghosts from the late eighties? So with

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Speaker 1: this attitude, I wandered around into the house at all hours,

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Speaker 1: often working a function or covering for a security guard,

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Speaker 1: and I never saw anything, apart from one occasion. As

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Speaker 1: I was heading up the stairs from the entrance hall,

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Speaker 1: it was about two am. I was on my own

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Speaker 1: in the house with the majority of the lights out.

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Speaker 1: As I walked up the stairs, I heard a sound aloud, cough,

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Speaker 1: ending very abruptly. I froze on the stairs for what

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Speaker 1: felt like an age, but I could it couldn't have

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Speaker 1: been more than five seconds. My mind was racing with

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Speaker 1: all the possibilities of this noise, and the stories of

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Speaker 1: ghosts and ghoules I tell tourists flashed through my brain.

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Speaker 1: Then the reality hit me. It was the automatic air

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Speaker 1: freshener and the toilet going off, But it was humbling

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Speaker 1: for a cynic like me to be that worried, even

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Speaker 1: if it was only for a short time. Pretty funny story,

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Speaker 1: that is, and it just goes to show how these

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Speaker 1: stories can get to us, whether it's a podcast or

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Speaker 1: like me doing the research for the podcast, so I

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Speaker 1: can totally relate to all those people. And I've written

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Speaker 1: back to a few folks saying like, Okay, well this

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Speaker 1: is why we don't do too many Colorado Cannibal episodes,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, once you start, I mean, if you're having

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Speaker 1: bad dreams listening to it, imagine how we feel. Absolutely

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Speaker 1: gets to us too, So that's why we will and

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Speaker 1: do move on to other topics. All we do. We

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Speaker 1: even when it's not Halloween, we sprinkle in some some

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Speaker 1: tales of horrors. They're always fun to do, So thank

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Speaker 1: you Phil for that story. Sometimes those air fresheners startle

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Speaker 1: me too, I don't know. They can make a funny

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Speaker 1: noise um. And if you want to suggest more spooky episodes,

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Speaker 1: like Develina says, we are always open to them. You

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Speaker 1: can email us that History podcast at Discovery dot com.

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Speaker 1: We're also on Twitter at mixton History and we are

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Speaker 1: on Facebook, and I hope everybody has a fantastic Halloween

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Speaker 1: and you've had a fun time leading up to it.

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Speaker 1: Send us pictures of your costumes, especially if they are

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Speaker 1: historically inspired. We'd love to see them on Facebook or

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Speaker 1: Twitter and get our own ideas from them. I know,

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Speaker 1: because I got to decide. I'm down to the wire here.

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Speaker 1: I need an idea for my baby. Still, it's coming

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Speaker 1: down to the wire for sure, all right, So ideas

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Speaker 1: for Deplina's baby, ideas for us and your own costs

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Speaker 1: we want to fa Yeah, And if you want to

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Speaker 1: learn a little bit more about some of the things

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00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: we talked about on this podcast, we do have an

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Speaker 1: article called how the Donner Party Worked, and you can

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Speaker 1: find that by searching on our homepage at www dot

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and

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Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: The Patus