WEBVTT - S5 Update: Latest on Donziger's Case 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.119 Hey, drilled listeners. I'm here with an update on the 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:15.360 story we told in our last narrative season, La Lucha Lahungla, 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:20.560 about the decades long fight between Chevron and various groups 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.759 in the Ecuadorian amazon As. You know if you listened 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:28.240 to that season. Chevron has recently been going after one 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.960 of the lawyers in that case, Stephen Donziger. He has 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.000 been on house arrest now for more than six hundred 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:40.800 days for a criminal contempt charge stemming from a civil 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:45.200 contempt charge that Chevron encouraged a judge in New York 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.280 to impose on him. That all started a few years 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:55.280 after Donziger lost a rico case brought against him by Chevron, 0:00:55.440 --> 0:01:00.680 claiming that he and the other attorneys in Ecuador had 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.640 engaged in misconduct in order to win their case in Ecuador, 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.480 and that therefore the judgment should be considered null and 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:14.080 void in the US. The Ecuadorian plaintiffs have continued to 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.600 try to collect on that judgment elsewhere in the world, 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:22.119 and it's possible that those efforts triggered Chevron's interests in 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:27.520 Donziger again. At any rate, they asked Judge Caplan, who 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.920 was the judge in the Rico case to subpoena certain 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.160 files and information from Donziger because they believed that he 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.360 was violating the agreement in that case, which is that 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.360 he would no longer be able to profit in any 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.640 way from the Ecuadorian judgment. Donziger refused to hand over 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.800 his files, saying that it would violate attorney client privilege, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.400 and that's when Caplan slapped him with a criminal content charge. 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:58.720 Caplan took that charge to the US Attorney's office. The 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.880 US attorney said, Nah, we don't want to prosecute this, 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.800 not really a case, and instead of letting it go 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:09.440 at that point, Kaplan hired a private law firm to 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:14.720 prosecute Donziger. Now, this is a very unusual move. According 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:19.920 to Donziger's current attorneys, it's the first time that a 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.080 private prosecutor has been used in a case like this. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.959 We haven't been able to find any other examples of 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.080 this being done, so it could very well be the 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.440 first time. It's certainly unusual, especially with sort of a 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.440 low level offense like a contempt charge. And then about 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:41.720 a year into court proceedings around this charge, Donziger and 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.840 his team discovered that the private prosecutor that judge Kaplan 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.560 had appointed a firm called Seward, and Kissel had worked 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.919 for Chevron as recently as a year before they were 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:58.120 hired to prosecute Donziger. That all seems a little shady. 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.080 Now here we are six h days in. Donziger still 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.000 hasn't had a trial. He's been denied a jury trial. 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.320 There is a court date set for May tenth. The 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:13.360 judge has declined requests for audio or video streaming of 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.520 that trial. In this episode, I am joined once again 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.040 by my co reporter on that series, Karen Savage, to 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.440 bring you some updates on what's happening in that case 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:29.520 and what Donziger is facing when he finally heads to 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.639 trial in May. That conversation coming up right after this 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:48.240 quick break, Karen, welcome back. 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:49.840 Thank you, Amy. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:51.760 I have missed reporting with you. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.160 I think this crazy long story that's going to come 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.480 out in a few days, and I didn't have anyone 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:57.640 to bounce things off of. 0:03:57.960 --> 0:03:59.920 Oh it was harder. 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:00.880 It was so much harder. 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.360 I know, right, It's nice to partner with with another 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:09.440 reporter on stuff. Yeah, yeah, okay, so I know I 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.960 feel like, I mean, you and I have been texting 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.480 each other you know, as different briefs and things come out. 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.039 But but what have you been kind of seeing in 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.119 the last couple months on the Donziger case. 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.000 So there's been you know, there was the back and 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.560 forth about the lawyers and who could get their win, 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.640 and then eventually everything was postponed until May tenth, and 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:34.880 I've really seen the most interesting things I've seen. Well, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.000 first we'll talk about the motion to dismiss I guess 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.200 based on vindictive Yeah, this. 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.920 Is so interesting. So this is all happening because, like 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.719 the this is part of the criminal contempt trial that 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:53.680 is still ongoing. There is a hearing scheduled for May tenth, 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.839 and in the meantime there have been lots of different 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.279 sort of motions filed and the most recent, right is 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.279 this one one of Donziger's. 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.599 Lawyers, Martin Garbage, and. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:11.200 It is really kind of asking for more discovery and 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:16.440 alleging that this is a vindictive prosecution, right. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.800 Yeah, And I think that's what's so interesting to me 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.080 is that you know, he's asking for the trying to 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:25.400 find the thing and get in front of me, but 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:26.400 he's asking. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.479 For the for discovery, which I honestly seems fairly he 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:35.799 should be able to access the evidence necessary to defend himself. 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.239 Is kind of like the argument that this brief is making, right. 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.960 Right, Yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking. It looks like 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.080 to me that you know, first of all, he's saying 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.320 this is vindictive prosecution, this is against the way we 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.640 do things here in the United States, which may or 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.000 may not be true, but that's apparently that that's the 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.400 whole premise of the law at least. And so you know, 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.960 the whole idea that that Donziger is being executed basically 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:05.760 because he went up against a large corporation a one, 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.359 and you know that there's been the whole thing that 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:10.839 we've we've covered, you know, how the narrative has shifted 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.240 from the people on the ground who are still suffering 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:19.040 from this toxic pollution, and so the narrative has shifted 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.520 away from the folks in Ecuador to focus on Steven 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:26.040 Donziger and what he what Chevron claims he did wrong 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:27.360 and all of these things. And you know, there's a 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.880 whole reco trial and the conviction. But you know, I 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.640 think that the message in this, in this motion to dismiss, 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.559 which is very consistent with what's been what's been said 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.240 all along by Steven Donziger and his supporters is that, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:47.000 you know, this is really malicious. You know, Judge Kaplan 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.719 has sided many many times with Chevron, and they even 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:55.320 in the motion pull out from some transcripts some of 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.120 the things that he has said in the past. And 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.200 you know, it's really if you look at it. I know, 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.000 our jobs as reporters are to kind of look at 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.160 both sides, but when you just look at it on 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.440 its face, it does look kind of pretty malicious. You know. 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.040 It's just this continuing pursuit of this guy. 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.520 Well, and also I think it's important for people to 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.840 understand that, like what's happening to him now has nothing 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:23.760 to do with what Chevron accused him of doing in Ecuador. 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.720 You know, at this point ten years ago, you know, 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:35.520 it is this kind of renewed attack on Donziger that started, 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:40.480 you know a few years after Chevron's Rico case was settled. 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.720 I mean, they won the Rico case, they you know, 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:49.720 kind of succeeded there and then for whatever reason, felt 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:54.000 the need to continue going after Donziger. I mean, I 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:58.080 think because the Ecuadorians were continuing to try to collect 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:02.880 this judgment somewhere in the world, and Chevron wants to 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:05.600 put us off to that. And also, honestly, it does 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.520 seem like they want to make an example out of 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:13.640 him and scare off other attorneys from from taking on 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.720 cases against oil companies and against big companies in general. 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.400 Right, And I think what you spoke to a few 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:26.640 minutes ago about, you know, the private prosecutor is really horrifying. 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.360 You know, if you follow that, you know right now 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.400 it's Steven Donziger who is being prosecuted by a private prosecutor, 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.880 but it could be anybody if this is if this 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.439 becomes a normal thing, and I know they're they're saying 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.360 it's this is the only time it's happened in ever, 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:46.719 And I honestly have looked and haven't found that it's 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.760 happened at other times. I'm not saying it's not out 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:50.240 there and I haven't missed it, but you know, I 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.360 haven't found any evidence that it's happened before. I haven't 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.839 found a specific case. But if this does happen and 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.920 goes through and becomes the norm, the ramifications of that 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.400 are really horrified because that means that corporations can hire 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.480 someone to prosecute. 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.120 Who are right, Well, that's right, Well, oil companies already 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:10.800 hire the police exactly right. 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.199 They already to pay the police hundreds of thousands of 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.760 dollars to work side jobs, or or they pay their 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.160 department directly, or they you know, in promotion and all 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.880 kinds of other you know, donations or whatever. So they 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.679 already have bought the police, and now they're trying to 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.960 buy the justice, you know, the court system, which is horrifying. 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.760 It's important for people to understand that Gibson Dunn created 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:38.280 the sort of novel strategy of using RICO to go 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.920 after plaintiffs attorneys, right like they did it with Dole, 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:44.880 and then they really sort of perfected it with this 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.560 Chevron case. And now that kind of thinking has made 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.280 its way into some of these anti protest bills that 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.240 are happening. Just last week or maybe two weeks ago, 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:59.199 I think it was Kansas Past one of the many 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:06.240 anti protest laws that are criminalizing protests around critical infrastructure, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.240 which basically means pipelines and fossil fuel infrastructure, and they 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:15.640 actually included RICO charges as part of that. So this 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.120 is like, you know, all right, well we've already seen 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.200 this happen where you know, a legal strategy that was 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.160 used in this case fairly novelly five six years ago 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.600 is now being replicated in various other instances. In fact, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.480 Gibson Done was brought on to help prosecute the protesters 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.000 at Standing Rock for Energy Transfer Partners. 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.400 Yeah, and they're following right in that playbook, you know, 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.440 the way there were the subpoenas in the Chevron, Ecuador 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.319 case against the you know, journalists against the Crewe documentary, 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:58.280 and now you know, Energy Transfer has is seeking information 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.120 and has issued a subpoena to unic and Riot, which 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.520 covered the protests of Standing Rock. So there are all 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:09.280 of these similarities. And I think what the corporations are 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.360 kind of hoping is that you know, maybe you and 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:14.600 me are sitting here saying, well, you know what, we're 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:18.439 not attorneys, we're not plaintiffs attorneys, so that's happening to 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:23.120 the plaintiff's attorneys. And we're not protesters, so that's happening 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.280 to the protesters. And you know, we are media, so 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.319 we notice that this is happening to media. But people 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.720 who aren't media are like, well, that's not us, that's media, 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.120 and no one kind of thinks of the collectively of 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:37.920 like these are a broad scale scaling back of our 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:39.440 first sleety rights. Yeah. 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:41.800 I was just talking to someone, you know, the other 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.840 day about the fact that media liability insurance has become 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.840 much more expensive and hard to get. Like I have 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.560 a fairly large policy because of the kind of you know, 0:11:55.720 --> 0:12:01.040 the sorts of stories that we do, and. 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:03.680 Sounds like a really good I'm not a business person, 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.000 but Amy that sounds like really good. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:10.880 Yeah. But the insurance company that I use, when I 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.360 went to sort of like the annual renewal of the 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.040 policy thing for a minute, was like, Oh, we're not 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.000 sure about this because we're not really giving policies to 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.320 investigative journalists anymore because it's seen as too risky. And 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:32.520 I was like, wow, that is quite troubling, because yeah, right, 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.640 it's like especially so I just feel like you've seen 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.840 this thing happen in over the last ten fifteen years 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:45.400 where corporations have increased their First Amendment rights and at 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.600 the same time have really worked strategically to whittle away 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:53.080 the First Amendment rights of everybody else. And it's very, 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.200 very troubling. And I see this case as like a 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.760 real as a part of that. You know, it's like 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:06.040 make plaintiffs attorneys scared to file suits against them, make protesters. 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.200 And now you know that the one of the novel 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.479 things in these anti protest laws is that they include 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.720 the ability to go after organizations for organizing protests. So 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.200 now you have all of these nonprofits who have helped 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.520 to like organize the Line three protests or organize the 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.240 Standing Rock protest or whatever, like, they're being dragged into 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:31.439 court now too. And then you know, uh, media is 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:37.560 having less and less protection because you know, everyone from 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:42.360 insurers to too, like publishers are worried about, you know, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:47.199 the cost and the risk associated with investigating these guys. 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.720 It's it's very troubling for sure. 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.880 And the other thing they do is they they shift 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.640 your the narrative of who you are as a reporter, right, yes, 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.240 you know, I covered the buy you Bridge stuff and 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.880 I cannot tell how many times I was called an activist. Now, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.600 I was there, I was embedded, I was clearly reporting 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.200 on it. But what they do is they shift the 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:12.880 way that we are described so that it diminishes or 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.600 changes our actual role and in people's minds, then there 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:21.440 becomes no distinction. Yes, so that's just another thing that 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:22.640 that you know, and I've seen them do it, like 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:24.720 Unicorn Riot, I've seen them do it to them and 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.280 they're you know, there's many many people that have reported 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.440 you know, look at at all kinds of folks democracy now, 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.640 Amy Goodman. You know, they'll do these subtle you know, 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.520 maybe just a word or two in there, or some 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.280 of my mass'll subtle, but it slipped the image of 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:46.120 something as a reporter into some murky unknown place. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.000 Absolutely absolutely that they've I mean, that has happened to me. 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.080 And it's why I'm such a like giant bitch about 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.840 it when I see people as saying it, because it's like, no, 0:14:57.920 --> 0:14:59.880 you don't understand. It's not that like I have so 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.800 sort of idea about activists, you know, that I'm like 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.080 above activists, or that they're you know, less than or 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.600 anything like that. It's that this is a very specific 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.800 strategy that's used to not only undermine the reporting that 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.200 some people are doing, but also to erode our First 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:15.280 Amendment protections. 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.240 I have had some of the most heated battles with 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.920 other journalists, I gotta tell you, so I hope out 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.480 there listening, please pay attention to where these boundaries are 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.120 constantly shifting and what even a little shift can do. 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.200 Because I don't like arguing with fellow journalists, but if 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.280 they're gonna misidentify me, I have to argue with you. 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.720 Yeah, exactly exactly. I know. I had a whole back 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.800 and forth with the guy at Axios because he referred 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:47.720 to me as an advocacy journalist and I was like, uh, nope. 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.760 I was referred to it was either activist journalists or 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.920 journalist activists. It was like hyphenate, which is another weird 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.560 variation that somebody created. And I had to like go 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.160 toe to toe and I was and I was in 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.400 a special place at that moment, so I kind of 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.200 let loose on that poor person. I think they probably 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.760 hung up like wow, she's really really you know, a 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:10.480 grand bitch. 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:15.160 But I had to do it, you know, like sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:20.600 And again, it's like it's important for a variety of reasons. 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.680 It's not just like, oh, I don't really care about, 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.960 you know, what title people give me or you know, 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.720 and I don't have any sort of like ego tied 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.000 up in like I'm a journalist or whatever. It's it's 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:40.200 actually it's about like legal protection and also like kind 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.000 of who controls the narrative and how things gets spun. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.720 So yeah, anyway, okay, So Garbus has filed this motion 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.680 asking for discovery, which is a legal term that means basically, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:57.960 you know, being able to request documents and evidence from 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.080 the other side and to be able to dig in 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.080 to people's files and things like that, and has also 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.080 called this a vindictive prosecution and asked for it to 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.440 be moved out of this judge's court, which I'm sure 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.399 this judge will take great offense to. But you know, 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:18.200 the accusation is that Judge Kaplan, who is very cozy 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.920 with Chevron, you know, hand selected this judge and that 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.960 there is just a huge conflict of interest here in 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:30.320 that she can't really be unbiased in this prosecution. 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.879 Right right, Yeah, And they pointed out, I think that 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.160 she's a member of a federal Society, and Chevron has 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:42.720 donated many times, yes to the to the Federalist Society, 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.600 so you know, they're just a whole bunch of conflicts there. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.920 Yeah. Yeah, when was that motion filed. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:54.679 It was filed I think last Thursday, and they're in 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.440 the process now of looking you know, setting the schedule 0:17:57.480 --> 0:17:59.040 on how they're going to deal with that motion. 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:03.400 Okay, and whether and like whether it's going to impact 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.800 the hearing date in general. 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.800 Right, which is another interesting part of this story, because 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.679 they the judge came out early, I think it was 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:20.680 two weeks ago and said, you know, because covid is 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.440 is at a better point where it was before, it's 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:25.320 going to be an in person trial. And of course 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.160 we already know it's going to be a bench trial, 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.000 even though don Zegger and his attorneys wanted a jury trial. 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:37.480 But he also requested that there be audio, video, video, 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:43.160 you know, access for public right, and she denied that. 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.320 I know, I thought that was really suspicious too. I 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.399 was just like why, I mean, it's like, you're already 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.040 under scrutiny here. I would think that you would want 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:56.320 to be transparent at least in that way. 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.400 But yeah, so I was just curious. So I looked up, 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.399 you know, and they have a whole calendar of civil 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.720 and criminal proceedings in that court. So I went there, 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.879 and so the things that are happening this week, the 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.880 week of what is it, April twelve, there are only 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.760 two trials going on that I could find but both 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.240 of them allow folks to call in and listen. It's 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.000 not like a zoom type thing, but you can call 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.760 in and listen over the phone. So it's bizarre to 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:29.919 me that those two trials the same court, same you know, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.359 a little bit different charges, and those do have a 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.520 jury trial, so I think that's a little different there, 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:39.320 but basically same courthouse, same well it's a different building, 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.000 but it's under the umbrella of the same court, and 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.680 they are allowing folks to call in and listen, and 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.800 Donziger's trial will not be you know, folks won't have 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:50.920 that ability. 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.240 So wild honestly, Like, I've been following a bunch of 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.800 other cases not related to this at all, and they're 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.200 all allowing like phone in access. 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.040 Well, you can still go to the courthouse, and they 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.960 have agreed to have overflow rooms. I think Judge Presco 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.800 moved it to a bigger courtroom and had the overflow rooms. 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.639 But part of the thing is that there are really 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:20.960 pretty strict rules about how you can enter, particularly if 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.280 you have traveled from another country. Right, you know, you 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.119 have to have this documentation that you are not that 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:31.120 you are negative COVID negative, and that's I would imagine 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:32.919 if I was traveling from another country, I would not 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.159 necessarily want to be here ten days in advance. So 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.639 it all just kind of complicates, complicates the issue, and 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.280 it also like leaves all of these folks who are 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.679 you know, it's kind of emblematic, right of the whole 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:49.600 recent proceedings that leave the folks who are the initial 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:54.240 victims of this toxic pollution completely out of the picture. 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.199 So they're in Ecuador and they have no way to 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.280 access these proceedings if they want to. 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:02.159 And I think that. 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.800 That in a normal time would be kind of unfortunately 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.159 just the way it goes. But with COVID, you know, 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.280 there was the whole thing for a while where they 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.840 were pushing, pushing, pushing to have a zoom trial. And 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.320 now not only are we not having a zoom trial 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.119 and we're having the trial in person, but now the 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:23.439 folks in Ecuador have zero ability to follow alone. So 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.119 I think that, you know, those kinds of things just 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:31.560 look funny. So I don't know, you know, like I said, 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.840 these other two trials managed to have ways that folks 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.359 can call in on a teleconference line. I tried just 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:39.359 to make sure you can actually get through and everything 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:41.399 was working, and I got into one and you know, 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:43.560 some kind of like sec fraud or something that I 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.440 wasn't particularly interested in its time, but you can do it. 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:53.080 So it's really beyond explanation why in Donziger's trial this 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:53.840 isn't allowed. 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.840 Yeah, yeah, it is very It's it's unusual. It's it's 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:06.119 an unusual thing to deny that request. So yeah, just 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:09.880 another of the many ways that this is unusual. And 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.919 he is now, I mean, he's he's coming up on 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:18.040 almost two years in August, right, it'll be two years 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.040 that he's been on house arrest. 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.960 Yeah. He did a Twitter live thing last night. I 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:25.960 think he said it was six they six o four 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.320 Maybe I'm not sure I got that number right, But 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:29.959 by the time this is out, it'll be more than 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:30.479 that anyway. 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:36.600 Yeah, so more than six hundred days. The the sort 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.960 of like the penalty if he's if like someone is 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:48.840 convicted of criminal contempt is six months. So I just 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:50.639 I don't understand. 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.600 For sure, you know. I And this is kind of 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:57.359 so typical of oil companies, right, like they want to 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.719 pumo any opposition to their exist and to the ground. 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.280 I mean, but at right now, Donziger. He's got I 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:07.600 think fifty five noble lawyers laureates are supporting him. He's 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.040 got folks from all over the world. You know, different 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:16.600 personalities have come out and supported him. And you know, 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.480 every time they push back against him, what I think 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:25.760 they don't realize is that they're growing his support. So 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.920 it's yeah, it's beyond me why they just keep pushing this. 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:34.000 This is crazy. There's even like a trial monitoring committee 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:36.199 set up, which is something that doesn't normally happen in 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.439 the United States. You know, folks think of that in 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:42.360 countries that just don't have well established justice systems or 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.360 fair justice systems, I guess I should say, and here 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:47.760 it is they want to do that in the United States. 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:52.639 So I think it speaks volumes just those types of things, 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:55.320 you know. And like I said, as a journalist, my 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:56.919 job is to go in and kind of look at 0:23:56.920 --> 0:23:59.240 both sides and see what happened and kind of figure 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.560 out where the truth lies, which is often sometimes in 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.600 between all the sides. But in this case, there's so 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:13.840 much just what appears to be unnecessary push against Donziger, 0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:18.199 and that the vindictive prosecution becomes very believable. 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:20.840 At the point where the US attorney is like, nah, 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:23.520