1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: Hey, drilled listeners. I'm here with an update on the 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: story we told in our last narrative season, La Lucha Lahungla, 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: about the decades long fight between Chevron and various groups 4 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: in the Ecuadorian amazon As. You know if you listened 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: to that season. Chevron has recently been going after one 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: of the lawyers in that case, Stephen Donziger. He has 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: been on house arrest now for more than six hundred 8 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: days for a criminal contempt charge stemming from a civil 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: contempt charge that Chevron encouraged a judge in New York 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: to impose on him. That all started a few years 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: after Donziger lost a rico case brought against him by Chevron, 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: claiming that he and the other attorneys in Ecuador had 13 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: engaged in misconduct in order to win their case in Ecuador, 14 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: and that therefore the judgment should be considered null and 15 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: void in the US. The Ecuadorian plaintiffs have continued to 16 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: try to collect on that judgment elsewhere in the world, 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: and it's possible that those efforts triggered Chevron's interests in 18 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: Donziger again. At any rate, they asked Judge Caplan, who 19 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: was the judge in the Rico case to subpoena certain 20 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: files and information from Donziger because they believed that he 21 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: was violating the agreement in that case, which is that 22 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: he would no longer be able to profit in any 23 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: way from the Ecuadorian judgment. Donziger refused to hand over 24 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: his files, saying that it would violate attorney client privilege, 25 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: and that's when Caplan slapped him with a criminal content charge. 26 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: Caplan took that charge to the US Attorney's office. The 27 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: US attorney said, Nah, we don't want to prosecute this, 28 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: not really a case, and instead of letting it go 29 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: at that point, Kaplan hired a private law firm to 30 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: prosecute Donziger. Now, this is a very unusual move. According 31 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: to Donziger's current attorneys, it's the first time that a 32 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: private prosecutor has been used in a case like this. 33 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: We haven't been able to find any other examples of 34 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: this being done, so it could very well be the 35 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: first time. It's certainly unusual, especially with sort of a 36 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: low level offense like a contempt charge. And then about 37 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: a year into court proceedings around this charge, Donziger and 38 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: his team discovered that the private prosecutor that judge Kaplan 39 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: had appointed a firm called Seward, and Kissel had worked 40 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: for Chevron as recently as a year before they were 41 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: hired to prosecute Donziger. That all seems a little shady. 42 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: Now here we are six h days in. Donziger still 43 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: hasn't had a trial. He's been denied a jury trial. 44 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: There is a court date set for May tenth. The 45 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: judge has declined requests for audio or video streaming of 46 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: that trial. In this episode, I am joined once again 47 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: by my co reporter on that series, Karen Savage, to 48 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: bring you some updates on what's happening in that case 49 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: and what Donziger is facing when he finally heads to 50 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: trial in May. That conversation coming up right after this 51 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: quick break, Karen, welcome back. 52 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: Thank you, Amy. 53 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: I have missed reporting with you. 54 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: I think this crazy long story that's going to come 55 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: out in a few days, and I didn't have anyone 56 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: to bounce things off of. 57 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: Oh it was harder. 58 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: It was so much harder. 59 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: I know, right, It's nice to partner with with another 60 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: reporter on stuff. Yeah, yeah, okay, so I know I 61 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, you and I have been texting 62 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: each other you know, as different briefs and things come out. 63 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: But but what have you been kind of seeing in 64 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,119 Speaker 1: the last couple months on the Donziger case. 65 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: So there's been you know, there was the back and 66 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: forth about the lawyers and who could get their win, 67 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: and then eventually everything was postponed until May tenth, and 68 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: I've really seen the most interesting things I've seen. Well, 69 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: first we'll talk about the motion to dismiss I guess 70 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: based on vindictive Yeah, this. 71 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: Is so interesting. So this is all happening because, like 72 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: the this is part of the criminal contempt trial that 73 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: is still ongoing. There is a hearing scheduled for May tenth, 74 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: and in the meantime there have been lots of different 75 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: sort of motions filed and the most recent, right is 76 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: this one one of Donziger's. 77 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 2: Lawyers, Martin Garbage, and. 78 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: It is really kind of asking for more discovery and 79 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: alleging that this is a vindictive prosecution, right. 80 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's what's so interesting to me 81 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: is that you know, he's asking for the trying to 82 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: find the thing and get in front of me, but 83 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: he's asking. 84 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: For the for discovery, which I honestly seems fairly he 85 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 1: should be able to access the evidence necessary to defend himself. 86 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,239 Speaker 1: Is kind of like the argument that this brief is making, right. 87 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking. It looks like 88 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: to me that you know, first of all, he's saying 89 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: this is vindictive prosecution, this is against the way we 90 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: do things here in the United States, which may or 91 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: may not be true, but that's apparently that that's the 92 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: whole premise of the law at least. And so you know, 93 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: the whole idea that that Donziger is being executed basically 94 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: because he went up against a large corporation a one, 95 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 2: and you know that there's been the whole thing that 96 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 2: we've we've covered, you know, how the narrative has shifted 97 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: from the people on the ground who are still suffering 98 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: from this toxic pollution, and so the narrative has shifted 99 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: away from the folks in Ecuador to focus on Steven 100 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: Donziger and what he what Chevron claims he did wrong 101 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: and all of these things. And you know, there's a 102 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: whole reco trial and the conviction. But you know, I 103 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: think that the message in this, in this motion to dismiss, 104 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 2: which is very consistent with what's been what's been said 105 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 2: all along by Steven Donziger and his supporters is that, 106 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: you know, this is really malicious. You know, Judge Kaplan 107 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: has sided many many times with Chevron, and they even 108 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: in the motion pull out from some transcripts some of 109 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: the things that he has said in the past. And 110 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 2: you know, it's really if you look at it. I know, 111 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: our jobs as reporters are to kind of look at 112 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 2: both sides, but when you just look at it on 113 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: its face, it does look kind of pretty malicious. You know. 114 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: It's just this continuing pursuit of this guy. 115 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: Well, and also I think it's important for people to 116 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: understand that, like what's happening to him now has nothing 117 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: to do with what Chevron accused him of doing in Ecuador. 118 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: You know, at this point ten years ago, you know, 119 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: it is this kind of renewed attack on Donziger that started, 120 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: you know a few years after Chevron's Rico case was settled. 121 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they won the Rico case, they you know, 122 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: kind of succeeded there and then for whatever reason, felt 123 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: the need to continue going after Donziger. I mean, I 124 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: think because the Ecuadorians were continuing to try to collect 125 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: this judgment somewhere in the world, and Chevron wants to 126 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: put us off to that. And also, honestly, it does 127 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: seem like they want to make an example out of 128 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: him and scare off other attorneys from from taking on 129 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: cases against oil companies and against big companies in general. 130 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: Right, And I think what you spoke to a few 131 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: minutes ago about, you know, the private prosecutor is really horrifying. 132 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: You know, if you follow that, you know right now 133 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: it's Steven Donziger who is being prosecuted by a private prosecutor, 134 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: but it could be anybody if this is if this 135 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 2: becomes a normal thing, and I know they're they're saying 136 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: it's this is the only time it's happened in ever, 137 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 2: And I honestly have looked and haven't found that it's 138 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: happened at other times. I'm not saying it's not out 139 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: there and I haven't missed it, but you know, I 140 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: haven't found any evidence that it's happened before. I haven't 141 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 2: found a specific case. But if this does happen and 142 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: goes through and becomes the norm, the ramifications of that 143 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: are really horrified because that means that corporations can hire 144 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: someone to prosecute. 145 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 3: Who are right, Well, that's right, Well, oil companies already 146 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 3: hire the police exactly right. 147 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 2: They already to pay the police hundreds of thousands of 148 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 2: dollars to work side jobs, or or they pay their 149 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: department directly, or they you know, in promotion and all 150 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: kinds of other you know, donations or whatever. So they 151 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 2: already have bought the police, and now they're trying to 152 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: buy the justice, you know, the court system, which is horrifying. 153 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: It's important for people to understand that Gibson Dunn created 154 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: the sort of novel strategy of using RICO to go 155 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: after plaintiffs attorneys, right like they did it with Dole, 156 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: and then they really sort of perfected it with this 157 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: Chevron case. And now that kind of thinking has made 158 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: its way into some of these anti protest bills that 159 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: are happening. Just last week or maybe two weeks ago, 160 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: I think it was Kansas Past one of the many 161 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: anti protest laws that are criminalizing protests around critical infrastructure, 162 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: which basically means pipelines and fossil fuel infrastructure, and they 163 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: actually included RICO charges as part of that. So this 164 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: is like, you know, all right, well we've already seen 165 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: this happen where you know, a legal strategy that was 166 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: used in this case fairly novelly five six years ago 167 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: is now being replicated in various other instances. In fact, 168 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: Gibson Done was brought on to help prosecute the protesters 169 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: at Standing Rock for Energy Transfer Partners. 170 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're following right in that playbook, you know, 171 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: the way there were the subpoenas in the Chevron, Ecuador 172 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 2: case against the you know, journalists against the Crewe documentary, 173 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: and now you know, Energy Transfer has is seeking information 174 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: and has issued a subpoena to unic and Riot, which 175 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: covered the protests of Standing Rock. So there are all 176 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 2: of these similarities. And I think what the corporations are 177 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: kind of hoping is that you know, maybe you and 178 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: me are sitting here saying, well, you know what, we're 179 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 2: not attorneys, we're not plaintiffs attorneys, so that's happening to 180 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: the plaintiff's attorneys. And we're not protesters, so that's happening 181 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: to the protesters. And you know, we are media, so 182 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 2: we notice that this is happening to media. But people 183 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: who aren't media are like, well, that's not us, that's media, 184 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: and no one kind of thinks of the collectively of 185 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: like these are a broad scale scaling back of our 186 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: first sleety rights. Yeah. 187 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: I was just talking to someone, you know, the other 188 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: day about the fact that media liability insurance has become 189 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: much more expensive and hard to get. Like I have 190 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: a fairly large policy because of the kind of you know, 191 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: the sorts of stories that we do, and. 192 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: Sounds like a really good I'm not a business person, 193 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: but Amy that sounds like really good. 194 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. But the insurance company that I use, when I 195 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: went to sort of like the annual renewal of the 196 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: policy thing for a minute, was like, Oh, we're not 197 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: sure about this because we're not really giving policies to 198 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: investigative journalists anymore because it's seen as too risky. And 199 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: I was like, wow, that is quite troubling, because yeah, right, 200 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: it's like especially so I just feel like you've seen 201 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: this thing happen in over the last ten fifteen years 202 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: where corporations have increased their First Amendment rights and at 203 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: the same time have really worked strategically to whittle away 204 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: the First Amendment rights of everybody else. And it's very, 205 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: very troubling. And I see this case as like a 206 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: real as a part of that. You know, it's like 207 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: make plaintiffs attorneys scared to file suits against them, make protesters. 208 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: And now you know that the one of the novel 209 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,479 Speaker 1: things in these anti protest laws is that they include 210 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: the ability to go after organizations for organizing protests. So 211 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: now you have all of these nonprofits who have helped 212 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: to like organize the Line three protests or organize the 213 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: Standing Rock protest or whatever, like, they're being dragged into 214 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: court now too. And then you know, uh, media is 215 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: having less and less protection because you know, everyone from 216 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: insurers to too, like publishers are worried about, you know, 217 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: the cost and the risk associated with investigating these guys. 218 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: It's it's very troubling for sure. 219 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: And the other thing they do is they they shift 220 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: your the narrative of who you are as a reporter, right, yes, 221 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: you know, I covered the buy you Bridge stuff and 222 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: I cannot tell how many times I was called an activist. Now, 223 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: I was there, I was embedded, I was clearly reporting 224 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: on it. But what they do is they shift the 225 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: way that we are described so that it diminishes or 226 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: changes our actual role and in people's minds, then there 227 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: becomes no distinction. Yes, so that's just another thing that 228 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: that you know, and I've seen them do it, like 229 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: Unicorn Riot, I've seen them do it to them and 230 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: they're you know, there's many many people that have reported 231 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: you know, look at at all kinds of folks democracy now, 232 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 2: Amy Goodman. You know, they'll do these subtle you know, 233 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: maybe just a word or two in there, or some 234 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: of my mass'll subtle, but it slipped the image of 235 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: something as a reporter into some murky unknown place. 236 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely that they've I mean, that has happened to me. 237 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: And it's why I'm such a like giant bitch about 238 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: it when I see people as saying it, because it's like, no, 239 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: you don't understand. It's not that like I have so 240 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: sort of idea about activists, you know, that I'm like 241 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: above activists, or that they're you know, less than or 242 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: anything like that. It's that this is a very specific 243 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: strategy that's used to not only undermine the reporting that 244 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: some people are doing, but also to erode our First 245 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: Amendment protections. 246 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: I have had some of the most heated battles with 247 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: other journalists, I gotta tell you, so I hope out 248 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 2: there listening, please pay attention to where these boundaries are 249 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: constantly shifting and what even a little shift can do. 250 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: Because I don't like arguing with fellow journalists, but if 251 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: they're gonna misidentify me, I have to argue with you. 252 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly. I know. I had a whole back 253 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: and forth with the guy at Axios because he referred 254 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: to me as an advocacy journalist and I was like, uh, nope. 255 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: I was referred to it was either activist journalists or 256 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: journalist activists. It was like hyphenate, which is another weird 257 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: variation that somebody created. And I had to like go 258 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: toe to toe and I was and I was in 259 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 2: a special place at that moment, so I kind of 260 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: let loose on that poor person. I think they probably 261 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: hung up like wow, she's really really you know, a 262 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: grand bitch. 263 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: But I had to do it, you know, like sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. 264 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: And again, it's like it's important for a variety of reasons. 265 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: It's not just like, oh, I don't really care about, 266 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: you know, what title people give me or you know, 267 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: and I don't have any sort of like ego tied 268 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: up in like I'm a journalist or whatever. It's it's 269 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: actually it's about like legal protection and also like kind 270 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: of who controls the narrative and how things gets spun. 271 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, anyway, okay, So Garbus has filed this motion 272 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: asking for discovery, which is a legal term that means basically, 273 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, being able to request documents and evidence from 274 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: the other side and to be able to dig in 275 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: to people's files and things like that, and has also 276 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: called this a vindictive prosecution and asked for it to 277 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: be moved out of this judge's court, which I'm sure 278 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: this judge will take great offense to. But you know, 279 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: the accusation is that Judge Kaplan, who is very cozy 280 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: with Chevron, you know, hand selected this judge and that 281 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: there is just a huge conflict of interest here in 282 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: that she can't really be unbiased in this prosecution. 283 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, And they pointed out, I think that 284 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 2: she's a member of a federal Society, and Chevron has 285 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 2: donated many times, yes to the to the Federalist Society, 286 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: so you know, they're just a whole bunch of conflicts there. 287 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, when was that motion filed. 288 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 2: It was filed I think last Thursday, and they're in 289 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 2: the process now of looking you know, setting the schedule 290 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: on how they're going to deal with that motion. 291 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: Okay, and whether and like whether it's going to impact 292 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: the hearing date in general. 293 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: Right, which is another interesting part of this story, because 294 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 2: they the judge came out early, I think it was 295 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 2: two weeks ago and said, you know, because covid is 296 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 2: is at a better point where it was before, it's 297 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: going to be an in person trial. And of course 298 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 2: we already know it's going to be a bench trial, 299 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: even though don Zegger and his attorneys wanted a jury trial. 300 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: But he also requested that there be audio, video, video, 301 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 2: you know, access for public right, and she denied that. 302 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: I know, I thought that was really suspicious too. I 303 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: was just like why, I mean, it's like, you're already 304 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: under scrutiny here. I would think that you would want 305 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: to be transparent at least in that way. 306 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 2: But yeah, so I was just curious. So I looked up, 307 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: you know, and they have a whole calendar of civil 308 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: and criminal proceedings in that court. So I went there, 309 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: and so the things that are happening this week, the 310 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: week of what is it, April twelve, there are only 311 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: two trials going on that I could find but both 312 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: of them allow folks to call in and listen. It's 313 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: not like a zoom type thing, but you can call 314 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: in and listen over the phone. So it's bizarre to 315 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 2: me that those two trials the same court, same you know, 316 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: a little bit different charges, and those do have a 317 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: jury trial, so I think that's a little different there, 318 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: but basically same courthouse, same well it's a different building, 319 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: but it's under the umbrella of the same court, and 320 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: they are allowing folks to call in and listen, and 321 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: Donziger's trial will not be you know, folks won't have 322 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: that ability. 323 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: So wild honestly, Like, I've been following a bunch of 324 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: other cases not related to this at all, and they're 325 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: all allowing like phone in access. 326 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: Well, you can still go to the courthouse, and they 327 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: have agreed to have overflow rooms. I think Judge Presco 328 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: moved it to a bigger courtroom and had the overflow rooms. 329 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 2: But part of the thing is that there are really 330 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: pretty strict rules about how you can enter, particularly if 331 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: you have traveled from another country. Right, you know, you 332 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 2: have to have this documentation that you are not that 333 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: you are negative COVID negative, and that's I would imagine 334 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 2: if I was traveling from another country, I would not 335 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 2: necessarily want to be here ten days in advance. So 336 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: it all just kind of complicates, complicates the issue, and 337 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: it also like leaves all of these folks who are 338 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of emblematic, right of the whole 339 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: recent proceedings that leave the folks who are the initial 340 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: victims of this toxic pollution completely out of the picture. 341 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: So they're in Ecuador and they have no way to 342 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: access these proceedings if they want to. 343 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: And I think that. 344 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: That in a normal time would be kind of unfortunately 345 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 2: just the way it goes. But with COVID, you know, 346 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: there was the whole thing for a while where they 347 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: were pushing, pushing, pushing to have a zoom trial. And 348 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: now not only are we not having a zoom trial 349 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: and we're having the trial in person, but now the 350 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 2: folks in Ecuador have zero ability to follow alone. So 351 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, those kinds of things just 352 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: look funny. So I don't know, you know, like I said, 353 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 2: these other two trials managed to have ways that folks 354 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 2: can call in on a teleconference line. I tried just 355 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: to make sure you can actually get through and everything 356 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: was working, and I got into one and you know, 357 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: some kind of like sec fraud or something that I 358 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 2: wasn't particularly interested in its time, but you can do it. 359 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 2: So it's really beyond explanation why in Donziger's trial this 360 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: isn't allowed. 361 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is very It's it's unusual. It's it's 362 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: an unusual thing to deny that request. So yeah, just 363 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: another of the many ways that this is unusual. And 364 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: he is now, I mean, he's he's coming up on 365 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: almost two years in August, right, it'll be two years 366 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: that he's been on house arrest. 367 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. He did a Twitter live thing last night. I 368 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: think he said it was six they six o four 369 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not sure I got that number right, But 370 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 2: by the time this is out, it'll be more than 371 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 2: that anyway. 372 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so more than six hundred days. The the sort 373 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: of like the penalty if he's if like someone is 374 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: convicted of criminal contempt is six months. So I just 375 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: I don't understand. 376 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: For sure, you know. I And this is kind of 377 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: so typical of oil companies, right, like they want to 378 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 2: pumo any opposition to their exist and to the ground. 379 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 2: I mean, but at right now, Donziger. He's got I 380 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: think fifty five noble lawyers laureates are supporting him. He's 381 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: got folks from all over the world. You know, different 382 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: personalities have come out and supported him. And you know, 383 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: every time they push back against him, what I think 384 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: they don't realize is that they're growing his support. So 385 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 2: it's yeah, it's beyond me why they just keep pushing this. 386 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: This is crazy. There's even like a trial monitoring committee 387 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 2: set up, which is something that doesn't normally happen in 388 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: the United States. You know, folks think of that in 389 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 2: countries that just don't have well established justice systems or 390 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 2: fair justice systems, I guess I should say, and here 391 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: it is they want to do that in the United States. 392 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: So I think it speaks volumes just those types of things, 393 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: you know. And like I said, as a journalist, my 394 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 2: job is to go in and kind of look at 395 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: both sides and see what happened and kind of figure 396 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: out where the truth lies, which is often sometimes in 397 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: between all the sides. But in this case, there's so 398 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: much just what appears to be unnecessary push against Donziger, 399 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 2: and that the vindictive prosecution becomes very believable. 400 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: At the point where the US attorney is like, nah, 401 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: we don't want we declined to prosecute, like this is 402 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: a nothing burger case. And then the judge goes out 403 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 1: and hires a private corporate law firm that just so 404 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: happened to worked for Chevron recently. I mean, that's just honestly, 405 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: I feel like, at a minimum, you would think that 406 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: the judge would want to be careful about giving the 407 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: impression that he is biased or has a grudge against 408 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, and it's like it's like wow, Like it's 409 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: like no effort was made to even really conceal it here, 410 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: so I don't It's like, well, what other It's very 411 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: hard to come to any other conclusion because the facts 412 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: are so gregious. 413 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing Garbage points out is that, you know, 414 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 2: when the prosecute, the prosecuting attorney initially said that they 415 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: didn't have the resources to prosecute. But here we are, 416 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 2: and we haven't even reached trial or appeal or sentencing 417 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 2: or any of those things that are still coming. They've 418 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: already paid Sword and Kissel over five hundred thousand dollars. Wow. 419 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 2: So you know, as he points out in his brief, 420 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: it could well be over a million dollars of taxpayer 421 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: money is paid for this prosecution. 422 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, which also I think it's important to point out 423 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 3: started initially way back with Chevron asking the judge to 424 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 3: look into, you know, what Donziger was up too. 425 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: Lately, Chevron's narrative is like, well, we didn't we didn't 426 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 2: ask for criminal contempt charges. Well, but you did ask 427 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 2: for civil contempt charges. 428 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: Right exactly, and that is what led to the criminal 429 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: contempt charges. So like, you did kick this entire thing off. 430 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: And I honestly I just I look at this and 431 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is like it's it's laughable. Because the 432 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: for years it was like, you know, we want to 433 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: move the trial to Ecuador, and then as soon as 434 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: they got to Ecuador and Ecuador's political situation changed, it was, oh, 435 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: the courts in Ecuador are corrupt and there's no way 436 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: we can get a fair trial. And it's like you 437 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: look at this and you're like, this is the type 438 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: of corruption that you know, Americans criticize other countries for 439 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: having in their judicial system, and like it's right here 440 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: in New York, right right, yeah. Yeah, So anyway, well 441 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: we'll be continuing to watch what happens. 442 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: But I think they're saying that the trial will last 443 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 2: maybe give or take ten days or so. 444 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: Wow. I know there have been actually too, some some 445 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: politicians who are starting to kind of tune into this too. 446 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: So I think it's Rep. McGovern in Massachusetts, right, and 447 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: Corey Bush also are who you know. This is an 448 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: interesting thing too, because Corey Bush comes out of the 449 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter movement. This whole like RICO criminalizing protest 450 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: thing has been like there has been some talk of 451 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: using that against Black Lives Matter protests too. So even 452 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: outside of the pipeline protest, these laws and this, these 453 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: precedents that really the fossil fuel industry is setting legally 454 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: will have ramifications for every other type of civil protest. Right, 455 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: that is very concerning. So I know that they are 456 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: drafting a letter to Attorney General Garland this week asking 457 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: the Department of Justice to review this case. So that 458 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: should be interesting too to see if anything happened there. 459 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was just reading I don't I forget where, 460 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,479 Speaker 2: but that the Biden administration is totally within bounds. They 461 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: could the DJ could say, you know what, we want 462 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: to take on this case and take over the prosecution. 463 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: That's interesting. 464 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 2: That would be really interesting. 465 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: That would be very interesting. Huh wow. Well, yeah, so 466 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: the plot continues to thicken with this case. This story 467 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: is like the most mind blowing story I think I've 468 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: ever worked on, and it just continues to go on. 469 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And what's what's amazing to me is that I 470 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 2: feel like there is so much that just in the 471 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: interest of time, we didn't cover, you know what I mean, 472 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: Like there are just yeah, probably millions of documents, yes, 473 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: of just fascinating little side stories. Yeah, definitely something to watch. 474 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: Will keep us, We'll keep us busy for a while. 475 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, something to watch. And it is the thing 476 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: that is very concerning about it is that this case 477 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: has set a lot of precedents all along the way, 478 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: most of which have been pretty bad for democracy, and 479 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: this is sort of the latest phase of that. So 480 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: it's very it's important to sort of to keep tabs 481 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: on what happens here and how it might affect lots 482 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: of other things.