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Speaker 1: As y'all know, I was born with four older sisters,

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Speaker 1: so the minute I got here, I had four best friends.

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Speaker 1: The first time I ever went to school was first grade.

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Speaker 1: I didn't vote with kindergarten. I remember Sissy comes running

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Speaker 1: up to me one day and says, hey, my mom

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Speaker 1: said you could spend the night. So right after school Friday,

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Speaker 1: you can come home with us and we're gonna watch movies,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna go on hikes, we're gonna have a great time.

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Speaker 1: Well I was kind of taken aback, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: that sounds fabulous, Like what is the occasion? Is it

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Speaker 1: a birthday? A holiday? Like why are we doing this?

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Speaker 1: This was new to me. She said, because we're best friends.

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Speaker 1: That's the first time anybody had ever called me that.

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Speaker 1: And we are still best friends today. By the way,

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Speaker 1: over fifty years we've been friends. And I remember that

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Speaker 1: feeling that I didn't just have a friend, I had

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Speaker 1: a best friend. All right, let's get in this thing

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Speaker 1: about Susan Morphew. Suzanne Moorefew got married in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: four to Barry. They eventually had two daughters, Macy and Mallory.

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Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, they moved to Colorado from Indiana. They

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Speaker 1: wanted a fresh start. They had had some issues. Suzanne

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Speaker 1: had had cancer it had returned. Macy was in high school.

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Speaker 1: Mallory was leaving for college, so if they went to

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Speaker 1: Colorado they could be closer to Mallory. In September, Suzanne's

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Speaker 1: best friend visited. Her name is Sheila Oliver. Well, as

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Speaker 1: best friends do, they talked. They talked most of the night,

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Speaker 1: most of the day the next night, and Suzanne told

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Speaker 1: her about her marriage that it was failing. Thanksgiving, Suzanne

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Speaker 1: visited with her best friend in Indiana. In February, Suzanne

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Speaker 1: started to talk to a friend from high school, Jeff Leebler.

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Speaker 1: That September, Suzanne started to confide in her friend more

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Speaker 1: and more about her wanting to leave her marriage, to

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Speaker 1: leave her husband Barry. This is one quote from a

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Speaker 1: text message. I sort of wish he would just get

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Speaker 1: fed up with me and leave. I told him I'm done.

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Speaker 1: Valentine's Day twenty nineteen, Suzanne and Jeff became more than

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Speaker 1: platonic in New Orleans. They met several more times. Later.

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Speaker 1: Barry would tell a law enforcement and he didn't know

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Speaker 1: anything about the relationship. In February, Suzanne and Sheila met

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Speaker 1: up for a girl's Super Bowl weekend. Suzanne again started

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Speaker 1: to talk about her marriage. She wanted out. In late February,

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Speaker 1: Suzanne met up with Leebl, her in person, in Florida

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Speaker 1: while she was visiting her dad. May sixth, twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: at ten seventeen am, Suzanne told Barry their marriage was over.

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Speaker 1: Quote this is a text message from Suzanne to Barry.

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Speaker 1: I'm done. I could care less what you're up to.

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Speaker 1: We just need to figure this out civilly. Barry writes back,

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Speaker 1: sort of a suicidal stunt. Quote. When I'm dead, which

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Speaker 1: won't be long, you and the girls will be taken

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Speaker 1: care of. May seventh, Suzanne and Barry they have pizza,

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Speaker 1: but she's texting Leebler. Quote it was kind of a

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Speaker 1: fine night. End quote. February May eighth, seven o two am.

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Speaker 1: Suzanne makes a list of grievances. One, Barry is accusing

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Speaker 1: her of having a boyfriend. Now remember later on down

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Speaker 1: the road, he's telling the police he didn't know anything

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Speaker 1: about an affair. Two Barry acts like I'm intruding when

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Speaker 1: I come into the garage. Later we find out that

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Speaker 1: Barry thinks she's got cameras in the garage. She texts

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Speaker 1: her sister quote dealing with the harsh abrasiveness and showing respect.

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Speaker 1: Ten am, Susanne and Barry have a series of phone calls.

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Speaker 1: Barry textes her I love you Suzanne. Saturday May ninth,

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Speaker 1: Suzanne texas Leebler quote, we need to be husband and wife.

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Speaker 1: Now there's about fifty nine text messages between them. At

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Speaker 1: eleven thirty am, Barry comes home for lunch, but then

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Speaker 1: he leaves to go change the blade on a bobcat.

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Speaker 1: At two seven pm, Suzanne sends a selfie to Leebler,

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Speaker 1: and it's the last known moment she's alive. At two

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Speaker 1: forty two, Barry returns home and his phone shows he's

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Speaker 1: moving all around outside. He later tells law enforcement between

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Speaker 1: the two forty two and two forty four, he's chasing chipmunks.

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Speaker 1: At six point forty, her best friend Oliver told investigators

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Speaker 1: she tried to reach Suzanne with no luck. At nine

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Speaker 1: twenty four to nine fifty two, the black box that's

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Speaker 1: in Berry's truck shows that the doors are opening and

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Speaker 1: closing over and over and over. At nine twenty five, specifically,

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Speaker 1: according to that black box in the truck. The gears

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Speaker 1: went into reverse and the truck backed up ninety six

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Speaker 1: feet to the edge of the driveway. May ninth and

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Speaker 1: tenth to forty seven PM until four thirty seven am,

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Speaker 1: Barry's phone is in airplane mode. Three twenty five to

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Speaker 1: three fifty two, the doors of Barry's truck are opening

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Speaker 1: closed again repeatedly. At four twenty three am, Suzanne her

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Speaker 1: cell phone pings for the last time. Her phone has

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Speaker 1: never been found. At four thirty am, Barry told the

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Speaker 1: police he woke up. At five am, Barry told the

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Speaker 1: police that he left to fix a retaining wall. He

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Speaker 1: said that Suzanne was sleeping in their bed when he left.

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Speaker 1: He's the last known person to see her alive. At

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Speaker 1: five thirty eight in the morning, Barry texted his mom

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Speaker 1: Happy Mother's Day. At six fifty six am, Barry was

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Speaker 1: near Bailey on his way to Broomfield.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: At eight ten, there's a video showing him throwing away trash.

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Speaker 1: At eight thirty five, he's walking into the hotel. At

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Speaker 1: eight forty one, he tries texting Suzanne Happy Mother's Day,

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Speaker 1: but got no response. At ten ten, Barry left the hotel.

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Speaker 1: He's seen on video throwing away trash at a McDonald's,

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Speaker 1: a car wash, and a men's warehouse. The job site

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Speaker 1: is about twenty minutes away, but he couldn't do any

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Speaker 1: work because he didn't have a work permit to work

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Speaker 1: on Sunday. And again keep in mind, this is Mother's Day.

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Speaker 1: Twelve forty two to five point fifty five, Barry did

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Speaker 1: not leave the hotel room at three point thirty. During

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Speaker 1: that time, he takes Suzanne to call him. At five

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Speaker 1: point fifteen, a neighbor, Jean Ritter, called Barry to say

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Speaker 1: Suzanne was missing. At five thirty eight, the DA's office

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Speaker 1: was notified there's a woman missing and police say they

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Speaker 1: found her bike down a ravine. At five forty five,

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Speaker 1: Barry got a second call from Ritter about Suzanne being missing.

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Speaker 1: At six, Barry made several trips to his truck bringing

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Speaker 1: in tools to the hotel. At six pm, Miles Harding,

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Speaker 1: a friend of Macy's, drove to the house looking for Suzanne.

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Speaker 1: Police arrived and he told them, yes, she rides bikes,

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Speaker 1: but she would never go up that trail. It's too

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Speaker 1: steep and it's too hard. She'd never make it. At

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Speaker 1: eight forty six, Barry arrives home, and the first thing

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Speaker 1: he says when he sees police is, have y'all saw

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Speaker 1: any cats on the road? I'm going to bring in

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Speaker 1: two guests that we need bust it down to the

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Speaker 1: most elementary thing. What do we have? So I'm going

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Speaker 1: to bring in Tom Smith and Dan Murphy. Now, let

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Speaker 1: me tell y'all about them. Tom Smith NYPD stellar career.

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Speaker 1: The first assignment he had was the three to zero

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Speaker 1: and Harlem Honey, he was playing clothes. That's no joke

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Speaker 1: when you're working in the busiest precinct in New York City.

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Speaker 1: He worked narcotics, He worked gangs, He worked robbery. He

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Speaker 1: was a part of the FBI Joint Task Force after

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven. He received the Medal of Valor Exceptional Merit,

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Speaker 1: three commendations twice. He was Cop of the Month in NYPD.

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Speaker 1: He's joined today by Dan Murphy. Dan Murphy thirty five

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Speaker 1: year career. He's an author. He's a retired detective sergeant, Narcotics,

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Speaker 1: organized Crime, Major Case, gang Unit, Joint tares Wars. After

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Speaker 1: nine eleven, he was also the National Associational Police Organization's

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Speaker 1: top cop. He responded to the World Trade Center after

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven, and I want you all to keep

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Speaker 1: something in mind after nine to eleven occurred, they had

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Speaker 1: to be perfect in their defense of this country so

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Speaker 1: that that never happened again. Ladies and gentlemen, I am

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed with gratitude and admiration for Tom Smith and Dan Murphy. Gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zone seven.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl, thank you so much. This is Dan. It is

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Speaker 3: a it's a privilege to be here in an honor

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Speaker 3: with you. Your career is something we can get into at

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Speaker 3: a later date. We're just honored to be on the

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Speaker 3: show with you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you and did it for me, Cheryl, thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for those overwhelmingly kind words and the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to be on this great show.

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Speaker 1: And you know, on a personal note, I got to

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Speaker 1: watch all work at Crime Con and just your care

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Speaker 1: and concern for everybody there, victims, fellow officers, and it's.

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Speaker 3: One thing that Tom and I the reason why we

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Speaker 3: do the work that we do in many reasons, for

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Speaker 3: many reasons, but one of the main reasons is because

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Speaker 3: we have a love and affection and a care and

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Speaker 3: a genuine concern for the men and women who are

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Speaker 3: out there protecting us. Twenty four to seven, and we

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Speaker 3: took our oath and we're doing our partner as retired.

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Speaker 1: Amen. If this was your case and you're standing there

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Speaker 1: and a husband shows up with his wife that's been missing,

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Speaker 1: and the first thing he asked you is if y'all

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Speaker 1: see any cats out here? Like did A? Did A?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can't say it with a straight face.

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Speaker 1: He's concerned about a mountain lion. He's given y' all

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Speaker 1: the reason she's missing.

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Speaker 3: When I picked my jaw up off the floor because

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Speaker 3: my Joe would drop at such a bizarre, ridiculous statement

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Speaker 3: coming out of your mouth. It reminds me of OJ

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Speaker 3: when he was called in the hotel in Chicago and

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Speaker 3: told his wife was dead. He said, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: I'll get it in the next flight. He never asked

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Speaker 3: what happened.

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Speaker 1: And OJ never asked about his kids because he knew

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Speaker 1: they were okay.

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Speaker 3: Right, So something stinks right away when that's the reaction, right,

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Speaker 3: Is it hard evidence?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: But it could certainly lead you in the right direction.

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Speaker 3: And I think there's a tendency to immediate, look immediately,

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Speaker 3: look at the spouse because in many cases of homicides,

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Speaker 3: in situations such as this, it is the spouse. But

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Speaker 3: you always have to be open minded. You have got

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Speaker 3: to follow the evidence and not what you think. One

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Speaker 3: of my favorite sayings is from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle,

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Speaker 3: the author of the Sherlock Holmes Mysteries, and he famously said,

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Speaker 3: it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has facts.

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Speaker 3: So you have to fight that tendency to immediately look

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Speaker 3: at him and say guilty.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the first things you do is

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Speaker 2: use technology to your advantage and your benefit and what

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Speaker 2: technology can give to a detective. Like Dan said, the

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Speaker 2: immediate reaction is to look at one particular party in

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Speaker 2: this and then what you do is you start working backwards.

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Speaker 2: Now you can have an opinion on a case, because

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Speaker 2: that drives where you're going to go, you know, and

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Speaker 2: what you're going to do, and the evidence you're going

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Speaker 2: to try to gather. And my initial thing, and Dan

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Speaker 2: and I did it together on numerous times, you know,

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Speaker 2: is to use technology as you're friend, and the immediate

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Speaker 2: thing is the phones and to get his location at

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Speaker 2: certain times. One of the most important things when it

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Speaker 2: comes to the situation like this is the dates. You

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Speaker 2: start working backwards with dates where was he at this point,

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Speaker 2: Where was he at this point? Where was she at

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Speaker 2: this point? You know? And then more the technology comes

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Speaker 2: into play with the text messages, then you start building

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Speaker 2: on that initial opinion you have, and then you just

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Speaker 2: go from there where the evidence that you start to

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Speaker 2: gather is going to lead you.

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Speaker 3: I think also if I can just jump on the

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Speaker 3: back of that, it's kind of a two prong thing. Simultaneously.

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Speaker 3: You want to know immediately all the technology the answers

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Speaker 3: you can get from that, but you want to put

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Speaker 3: him on record as soon as possible. You want to

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Speaker 3: interview him extensively about his whereabouts, what he knows. First

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Speaker 3: of all, right, now we're talking about a missing person's case.

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Speaker 3: At this point. It's a missing person's case, but you

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Speaker 3: always have to treat those cases as though they could

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Speaker 3: turn out to be the world case scenario. In this case,

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Speaker 3: it did. But get him on record, where were you,

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Speaker 3: who were you with, who saw you, what times, why

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Speaker 3: we're there? Well, explain your behaviors for the last forty

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Speaker 3: eight seventy two, whatever it takes.

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Speaker 1: Was it a flag for y'all at all? That this

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Speaker 1: was Mother's Day could.

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Speaker 3: Be a trigger?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that could be You can certainly have it in

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Speaker 2: your head, but things just happen sometimes and dates just

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Speaker 2: line up with certain days. But it would be something

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Speaker 2: on your mind for sure, especially you know what you

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Speaker 2: had said during your opening, Cheryl, and how far how

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Speaker 2: long in the day it took him to finally shoot

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Speaker 2: her a text message of happy Mother's Day, you know,

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Speaker 2: normally with me, with Dan, that's the first thing in

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Speaker 2: the morning, you know, as you wait and you wait,

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Speaker 2: because what's going on in his head. He's thinking of

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Speaker 2: how to cover his butt, you know, Oh, let me

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Speaker 2: do that, and maybe that thought doesn't come until later

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Speaker 2: on in the day, you know. So now the mother's

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Speaker 2: Day thing certainly comes into.

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Speaker 1: Play, and especially I mean he didn't wake her up

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Speaker 1: and say Happy Mother's Day before he left. There's no flowers,

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Speaker 1: there's no restaurant reservation, the daughters are off camping. So

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Speaker 1: it's Mother's Day. And you have chosen, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: own the company, so you've chosen to work today. So

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Speaker 1: it just seems like there would have been more of

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Speaker 1: a acknowledgment of the mother's day to meet Now when

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Speaker 1: he did text her at eight forty six or whatever

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Speaker 1: and got no response, it seems like by the time

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Speaker 1: Ritter would have contacted him, there would have been much

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Speaker 1: more alarm because hey, I hadn't heard from her either

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Speaker 1: since eight forty six this morning.

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Speaker 3: As I said before, you really do have to fight

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Speaker 3: the tendency. You have to focus on everybody because everybody's

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Speaker 3: a suspect. You don't know what the outcome is going

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Speaker 3: to be because it's just a missing person's case. But

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Speaker 3: you don't know the full story yet. But you have

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Speaker 3: to talk to as many witnesses as possible to figure

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Speaker 3: out what's going on. Granted, his behaviors in retrospect now

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Speaker 3: look really weird. Well, why would you go up to

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Speaker 3: work on Mother's Day? Well, that could have been an

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Speaker 3: answer for that. Why did you not wake her up?

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Speaker 3: That could have been a good answer for that. They're

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Speaker 3: having trouble in their marriage, racial relationship. Maybe he just

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Speaker 3: wanted to get away from the house from Mother's Day

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Speaker 3: because it's an emotional day for him. I'm not making

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Speaker 3: excuses of him. I'm just that you have to be

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Speaker 3: as objective and open minded as possible in these cases

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Speaker 3: and not just zero in on the person you feel

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Speaker 3: gives you the hebgbis because he said something stupid.

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Speaker 1: Now, do y'all hear Dan being logical and you know, brilliant,

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Speaker 1: and let's not jump. He's doing exactly what a detective

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Speaker 1: sergeant should be doing. So he's absolutely right that you

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Speaker 1: don't want to just take one, two, and three and

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Speaker 1: you think you're at nine. We're not at nine. But

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Speaker 1: I do think if I were to call and say, hey, Tom,

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Speaker 1: Dan's being reasonable, So I don't want to talk to

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Speaker 1: him anymore. I want I want somebody to tell me,

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Speaker 1: not logically, not reasonably, but as a mama, I would

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Speaker 1: expect a little more than a text at eight forty six,

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Speaker 1: especially when you know you can't work on a Sunday

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Speaker 1: because you don't have that permit. So are you just

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Speaker 1: going somewhere to have an affair or you just not

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Speaker 1: want to hang out with me? Are you going to

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Speaker 1: set up so that y'all aren't off this timetable? And

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Speaker 1: you're setting things up anyway so that Monday you can

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Speaker 1: get right to work. Like like Dan said, maybe that's logical.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he went to get things into place so that

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Speaker 1: they're not really losing Sunday.

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Speaker 2: No, I agree, and you know, just saying that's that's

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Speaker 2: why Dan was the sergeant, you know, to control a

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Speaker 2: detective like me, would you know, just kick him up.

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Speaker 2: We need to do this, this and this, and Dan

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Speaker 2: having the you know, where he is and the experience

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Speaker 2: he has to go, Okay, hold on, let's do a

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Speaker 2: B and C. And that's how you have to work,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's how you have to be patient with

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Speaker 2: these because the more patient you are, the more you

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Speaker 2: see clearly, the more the better plan you have going

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Speaker 2: forward with an investigative plan. You know, when you when

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Speaker 2: you're rushing around and you have one thought, it gets clouded,

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Speaker 2: you know, So when you when you have these cases,

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Speaker 2: it is the team concept is so important, you know,

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Speaker 2: to have two, three, four detectives and a sergeant to

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Speaker 2: bounce things off because everyone has a different idea, everyone

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Speaker 2: has different experiences, and you put that together to create

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Speaker 2: an investigative plan. You know, maybe two guys do one thing,

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Speaker 2: two guys do another thing. Switch up interrogators, you know,

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Speaker 2: to throw them off a little bit, to get a

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Speaker 2: different voice in there. You know. So there's there's that

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Speaker 2: concept of going forward. The good thing with this you

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Speaker 2: shouldn't say a good thing, but one of the interesting

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Speaker 2: things with this is you had multiple people involved in

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Speaker 2: a situation, so you can take that kind of storyboard,

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Speaker 2: you know, and start listing who is and then, like

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Speaker 2: Dan said, immediately start talking to people and doing intel

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Speaker 2: interrogations and interviews, and then you start matching stories up

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Speaker 2: and that gives you a pretty clear a good clear

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Speaker 2: view of what might have taken place once you start

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Speaker 2: eliminating certain things, and you're only going to do that

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Speaker 2: through talking to people. That's the only way you're going

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Speaker 2: to do it is to get people's stories of where

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Speaker 2: they were, what's going on, and then you start pinpointing mistakes,

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Speaker 2: you know, in what had happened, and that that kind

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Speaker 2: of gets you on a better road to solving.

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Speaker 3: This this So this guy he comes in, he makes a

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Speaker 3: statement about mountain lion on the road, which is bizarre.

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Speaker 3: So it is okay to let that register that his

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Speaker 3: reaction was we'll call it inappropriate or just difficult to

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Speaker 3: wrap your head around why would he say that? And

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Speaker 3: then you know, over time it'll hit you, Okay, he's

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Speaker 3: trying to create some kind of an alibi, and you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe she was eaten by it. If somebody's legitimately missing

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Speaker 3: and you really care about and love them. You're not

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Speaker 3: offering up alternate theories to their demise, You're helping the

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Speaker 3: police find them.

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Speaker 1: That's an excellent point. And there's a video. It's bodycam

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Speaker 1: from the officers that are on the scene searching for her.

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Speaker 1: Now they have found her bicycle. On the body cam,

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Speaker 1: they are calling her name, seeing as she landed somewhere hurt,

341
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Speaker 1: you know, did she hobble away from the bicycle but

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Speaker 1: she couldn't make it any further, thinking maybe she can,

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Speaker 1: you know, holler I'm over here, you know, I broke

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Speaker 1: my leg or whatever. So they are literally these strangers

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Speaker 1: are calling for her name. When Barry hops out of

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Speaker 1: the truck, he never once hollers her. He doesn't call

347
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Speaker 1: for her, he doesn't jump in and start going down

348
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Speaker 1: the ravine and walking into the woods looking for her.

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Speaker 1: He's offering them exactly what you said, Dan, something that

350
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Speaker 1: is remarkable. It's unbelievable that himself would jump to a

351
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Speaker 1: mountain lion. I mean, has a mountain lion ever attacked somebody?

352
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Speaker 1: Of course, but it is so rare. Why would that

353
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Speaker 1: ever even enter your mind?

354
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Speaker 3: Right now? Thinking about his mindset he is, if he

355
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Speaker 3: is responsible for her disappearance, and ultimate we find out homicide,

356
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Speaker 3: if he's responsible for it, He's got a million things

357
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Speaker 3: going on in his mind. He's trying to figure out

358
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Speaker 3: how to play this, and he's gonna make mistakes. He's

359
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Speaker 3: under enormous pressure. He's never been in this situation before.

360
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Speaker 3: This is not an experienced killer. This is a guy

361
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Speaker 3: whose emotions. If he did it, it's crazy. He couldn't

362
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Speaker 3: handle it anymore. And now he's playing cover up. And

363
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 3: the cover up is where they mess up. It's because

364
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Speaker 3: he will. He will say the wrong thing. He will

365
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 3: contradict himself, his text messages, his phone records will not

366
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Speaker 3: drive with where he said he was and doing what

367
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Speaker 3: he was. And you look at the behaviors that you

368
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Speaker 3: described earlier, the many stops too. And I've heard my

369
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 3: research on this case, A says Tom, the many stops

370
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Speaker 3: he made into garbage dumpsters. There's really not a lot

371
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Speaker 3: of good explanation for that. But does that mean that

372
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Speaker 3: you're guilty of a homicide? Not necessarily. Could it be

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Speaker 3: one piece of a bigger picture that you put together

374
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Speaker 3: in a case. Yeah, but you got to be very

375
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Speaker 3: careful in the beginning at this point, because you have

376
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Speaker 3: there's a couple of things. One people will distract and

377
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Speaker 3: try to get you to look another way. Clearly he

378
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Speaker 3: tried that right away. And the other is they will

379
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Speaker 3: attach themselves to you and want to become intimately involved

380
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Speaker 3: with everything you're doing so they can guide it. And

381
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Speaker 3: that's what you have to look out for with a

382
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Speaker 3: guy like this. And we've seen i think another missing

383
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Speaker 3: person's cases where the wife is missing and the husband

384
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Speaker 3: is all over the police offering all kinds of alternative

385
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 3: theories as to what might have happened. That's distraction, but

386
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Speaker 3: it could also be a genuine effort to find them.

387
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Speaker 3: So you have to see if there's a difference there.

388
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Speaker 3: People who are not guilty of anything generally don't trip

389
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Speaker 3: themselves up with their statements.

390
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Speaker 2: And I think one of the best things Dan just

391
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Speaker 2: said was, you know, when you have these they're not

392
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Speaker 2: professional killers. This is the first time he probably did this,

393
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Speaker 2: and he's not experienced in it. You know, he's not

394
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Speaker 2: a serio killer. He's a one time actor in a

395
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 2: bad situation. Those mistakes are going to get made. And

396
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Speaker 2: the best thing is when you start pinpointing, like Dan said,

397
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Speaker 2: the movements, you know on the phone, the movements of

398
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Speaker 2: his car. Those are all things he has to explain,

399
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,239
Speaker 2: you know, that's part of the interrogation. Now you have

400
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: all this information, and he has to explain, why did

401
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 2: you do this? And those are the points where a

402
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: lot of times they screw up because, like like we

403
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 2: said in the beginning, he immediately started with the reasoning

404
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: of her being, you know, her disappearance, you know, the

405
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: Mountain Lion and all this. But now he has to

406
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: explain everything he's done for the next day and a

407
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 2: half two days, and that's where they get tripped up.

408
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 2: And that's what you count on because of the lack

409
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 2: of experience. You know, we drive into dumpsters and McDonald's

410
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: and all that, not realizing that there is a camera

411
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: everywhere on this planet now that's going to track everything

412
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: everyone does. He's not thinking like that, you know, so boom,

413
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: there's a mistake. He's not thinking that there's a box,

414
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: a black box in his car, to the amount of

415
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: feet he backed up drove here, he's not thinking on

416
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: those lines. That's all ammunition for detectives and investigators to

417
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: you to go after him.

418
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about mistakes if it's him, and

419
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: this is the reason law enforcement looked at him in

420
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: the first place many reasons. But when they do the

421
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: search warman at his home, they find a tranquilizer dark

422
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: cap in the drier. Now that's not something you're going

423
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: to ever find in a dryer for a legitimate reason.

424
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: So now they're thinking, did he shoot her with a

425
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: tranquilizer so that she couldn't fight back and then do

426
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: something the faari is to her? And then the other

427
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: thing they found, and I want y'all both to talk

428
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: about these two things is a spy pin. Now, Suzanne

429
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: supposedly bought this pen to try to catch Barry, but

430
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: it ended up she was on the recording talking about

431
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: her affair with a married man, Leebler, So now law

432
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: enforcement knows, okay, she was absolutely having an affair. They

433
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: talked to Leebler, he tells them the truth. So now

434
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: they know is this motive?

435
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: It's absolutely a motive. If a man or a woman

436
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 3: feels their whole world is about the cave in, it's

437
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 3: absolutely a motive. There may be other motives, you know.

438
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: The text messages between them are very telling. The text

439
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: messages between her and Leebler are very telling. What I

440
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 3: read in the case is that Leebler did not voluntarily

441
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 3: come forward, correct, It was probably what four or five

442
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 3: months before he was interviewed and came forward. Now you

443
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: can explain that away as being a married man afraid

444
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 3: to have this blow up in his face, or it

445
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: could be he has something to hide, you know, But

446
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: I think he was eliminated as a suspect at some point.

447
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 3: But when you know your question has to do with

448
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 3: the pen, the spy pen, things like that. This is

449
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: this is a marriage that's not in a good place right.

450
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: Obviously she's having a relationship with somebody else. She wants

451
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 3: to leave. She's made that clear. What I've read about

452
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 3: him as his personality as such that he's a control

453
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: kind of guy. He likes to make the decisions. He

454
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: wants to be in control. That's very hard for a

455
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 3: person like that to take when somebody decides they want

456
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 3: to break off with you. Oh, they've decided they want

457
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 3: somebody else. It sounds like he lied about the whole

458
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 3: knowledge of the relationship. And again we're at the very

459
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 3: very beginning of this investigation and we don't know if

460
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 3: she's alive someplace yet, we haven't found the body. All

461
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,479
Speaker 3: we know is she's missing. The phone activity has been

462
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 3: cut off, nobody has seen her. We have a missing

463
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 3: person's case with an asterisk next to it that it

464
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 3: might be moving on to the homicide category, but we

465
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: don't know. So his posture, his entire posture, should be

466
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: regardless of whether or not the relationship was falling apart.

467
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: That's the mother of my children. I will do anything,

468
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: and I will let you look at anything. And apparently

469
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: he was open to being interviewed many times. He didn't

470
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 3: say no. He was open to, you know, come in

471
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 3: search my house. They got a warm but he still

472
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 3: he didn't play games. He tried to be open. But

473
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 3: if you shoot somebody with a tranquilizer dart, it's actually

474
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: a very ingenious way to eliminate a messy crime scene

475
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 3: in the house. So there's thinking. That takes a lot

476
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 3: of thinking. I hate to say, probably listen to podcasts,

477
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: so watch true crime shows to learn about these things.

478
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 3: But he may have for all we know, But that

479
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 3: takes thinking and planning. Tom your thoughts on this, That's

480
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: what jumped out at me.

481
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, if he has an inkling of the affair,

482
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: now the motive starts to creep into his head. Then

483
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: the planning starts, The premeditation starts of how do I

484
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: get away with this? Is it even possible to get

485
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: away with? You know, when you start mapping out ways

486
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: you can do it, and a lot of times it's

487
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: then it becomes an impulse. All right, I think I

488
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: can do it. You're not thinking rationally, obviously, as someone

489
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: who's gonna possibly commit a murder, especially to his wife,

490
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: So you're not thinking rationally, so that does creep into

491
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: his head. But the premeditation definitely starts when you know

492
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: he has the thought of the affair as a detective

493
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: is as sergeant, you capitalize on that because of the inexperience,

494
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: because it is an impulse and the driving around is

495
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: a mistake, and that's part of the not being experienced.

496
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: And another thought about that, just to tag onto the

497
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 3: back of Adam's just saying, it depends upon who you're

498
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: dealing with when it comes to certain things like, for example,

499
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 3: what I've learned about reading about Barry Morphew sounds as

500
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: though he may have narcissistic and or sociopathic tendencies. I'm

501
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: not a forensic psychologist. I just know enough about people

502
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 3: to know there are certain people who exist for their

503
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 3: own pleasure, in their own you know, if someone doesn't

504
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: make them feel like the sun rises on them, then

505
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: they're no good in my life anymore. And watching interviews

506
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 3: with Barry Morphew and he's been open with them since

507
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: he was arrested and all that other stuff, sitting with

508
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: his children and very confidently proclaiming his innocence. Now, there

509
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 3: are people who are guilty as hell who can do that,

510
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: and then there is the rest of the population who

511
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: the guilt of a knee jerk emotional reaction will haunt

512
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 3: them for their life and they will crumble. This guy

513
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be that person.

514
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: If he did it, well, let's talk about how narcissistic

515
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: he might be. So he was arrested May fifth, twenty

516
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: twenty one, for first degree murder, tampering with evidence, and

517
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: attempting to influence a public servant. But there's one other

518
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: thing I want y'all to talk about. Your wife is

519
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: missing this person. You know, she's had cancer, she got better,

520
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: the cancer came back. You've got a beautiful home with her,

521
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: you've got two beautiful daughters with her, and you don't

522
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: know where she's at. With all that going on, though,

523
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: you take it upon yourself to use her vote to

524
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: vote in the presidential election.

525
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: That's a different category of human being right there. We're

526
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: not talking of it about a person who is going

527
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 3: to be remorseful for their actions unless it helps them.

528
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: These are the people who are completely without remorse until

529
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: the sentencing and they break down in front of the

530
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: judge to try to prove that they really care, when

531
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: in reality they're only crying for themselves. That is a

532
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 3: very bizarre There's a lot of bizarre things that he did,

533
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: and all that stuff adds up to a cloud of suspicion.

534
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: What you've got to do is you've got to find

535
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 3: concrete evidence to corroborate actions. You know, they arrested him

536
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: before the body was found. That is a very difficult

537
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 3: case for a prosecutor to make. They have been made,

538
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: but it's very very difficult because you have to present

539
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 3: the theory to the jury as to what happened. And

540
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 3: if you can't present the theory, you can't even present

541
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: a cause of death. You don't have officially, you don't

542
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: have a medical examiner's report to show the person was

543
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: a victim of a homicide. How do you do that.

544
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 3: You can do it with a lot of circumstantials. So

545
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: circumstantial homicide cases have been made. But in this case,

546
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: they didn't have a messy crime scene at the house,

547
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: They didn't have a messy crime scene in the car.

548
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 3: They didn't seem to have a lot by my estimation

549
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 3: to charge him and I originally when I read it,

550
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: thoughts to myself, you know, there's always more that we

551
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: don't know, Right, Tom and I didn't work the case.

552
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: We don't know it. The prosecutors, the detectives, they know

553
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 3: the inside of baseball. They know why they charged, and

554
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: it probably was for a valid reason. But in retrospect,

555
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 3: I think I would have liked give them them more time.

556
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 3: Give people time, let them unravel, let them talk. People

557
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 3: will talk like I like him is going to talk

558
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: to somebody about this. You can't keep it in. And

559
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 3: if he gets away with it, he's proud of it.

560
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: You know, when you give people time, remember his entire

561
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 2: life once this started has been a lie. People forget

562
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: their own lies after a while. So if you let

563
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: like Dan said, you let them settle in, you let

564
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: them kind of quote unquote get back to his life,

565
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: then you start asking him again about past stuff, and

566
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: people forget their lies if you get what they said,

567
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: and that's when you start, you know, digging it a

568
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: little more and getting more information. But you know, that's

569
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: a great point, you wait, and I agree with Dan

570
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: with with waiting instead of jumping on. It's very hard.

571
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: A nobody homicide. That is extremely hard because, like Dan

572
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: said it, the theory you're working on. Yes, you can

573
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: have all the pinpoints in this and that all you want,

574
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: but when you don't have a body, you're given the defense.

575
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: You know, they can come up with any excuse they

576
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: want for anything you're presenting. You know, because you can't

577
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: prove it. You know, it's still you know, because you

578
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 2: still have that zero zero point one percent that maybe

579
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: she just took off. You know, that's still out there.

580
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 2: You know probably you know, as detectives and investigators, you know,

581
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: and looking at evidence, you're going to come to an

582
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: investigative decision and outcome in your mind of what you

583
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: think you know the end is. But there is still

584
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: that zero zero point one percent that you know, she

585
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: just went into hiding and she's gone. So that's why

586
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: it becomes a very difficult case and I agree with Dan.

587
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: I would have waited myself also and given him time to,

588
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: like he said, unravel and go back at him with

589
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: some some pinpointed question and see if he trips himself up,

590
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: which normally does happen.

591
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I went out there with Nancy Gray,

592
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: she was doing a special and I took my daughter

593
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: with me, Caroline, because Caroline was exactly Susanne Morphew's height,

594
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: and she was not a big person at all. She

595
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: was tiny. And I mean, I know I'm from the South,

596
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: but y'all, when I tell you the snow banks and

597
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: the vastness of this area where they lived, it was

598
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: some of the most beautiful land I've ever seen. But

599
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: Caroline asked me, she said, Mom, where would you put

600
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: a body? And I was like, standing right here there

601
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: there there over there would be good. Right, there's good.

602
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: I mean, there was so many places in these mountains

603
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: with all this snow, I don't know how you would

604
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: ever find her. And so that was one of the

605
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: first things that kind of really resonated with me walking

606
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 1: that area. When you drive away from their home, which

607
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: was beautiful, you didn't have to go very far and

608
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: there was nothing and the idea that you know, you

609
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: could find a place where people didn't hike, and they

610
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: weren't skiing, and they weren't camping, and they weren't going

611
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: for a picnic. You had all the places in the

612
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: world to put her, no doubt about it. April nineteenth,

613
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, they dismissed his you know, charges without prejudice.

614
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: I thought it was the right call. I thought having

615
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: her remains are going to be the ticket to decide

616
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: whether he had something to do with it or a stranger.

617
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: Right. And now the remains were just found not long ago.

618
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: Correct, the twenty second of September.

619
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, two weeks ago, literally, and we have I think

620
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: the public has yet to be made aware of the

621
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: findings of the medical examiners or examination, and so we

622
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 3: can all hypothetically discuss what may or may not have

623
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 3: happened to her, but we have to wait until that

624
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 3: comes in. Got to be a determination of homicide. While

625
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: we're still waiting for a medical examiner's report. You can't

626
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: deny that her being found in a shallow grave is

627
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 3: evidence of a human being who's alive involved in her demise,

628
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 3: or at least her or at least the disposal of

629
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: her body.

630
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: Yep, the other big part of the MS report is

631
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: going to be the cause of death, you know, if

632
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 2: it's a blunt trauma to any part of her body,

633
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: if it's a stable, if it's something like that, you

634
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: have to remember the amount of tools that he had

635
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: at his hands, you know, and then you start, you know,

636
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: going into what he had in the home, in his car,

637
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: So again you start down that evidentiary road again after

638
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 2: you determine the cause of death, which hopefully they're able

639
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: to do with probably so much decomposition of the body,

640
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 2: but hopefully they can get to that determination.

641
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: This guy sounds like he probably he was pretty calculated

642
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 3: about how he did this. If he did, in fact,

643
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 3: let's go into the theoretical, if he did, in fact,

644
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 3: use some form of tranquilizer on her in order to

645
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 3: remove her peacefully, without mess and without resistance from the house,

646
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: backed up the truck, puts her in the truck, takes

647
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 3: her someplace. She's still sort of unconscious. He's not going

648
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 3: to put a bullet in her head from a gun

649
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: that's in his closet at that point. With that level

650
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 3: of planning, I mean, never put anything past a criminal

651
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: criminals do stupid stuff all the time. This guy, if

652
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: he did it, let's keep that caveat he's planned it.

653
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 3: And if he's planned it, he wants to make sure

654
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 3: the homicide is done in such a way that doesn't

655
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 3: directly make it easy to be linked to him. Doesn't

656
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 3: mean he's thought everything out, but I just would think

657
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: that that would be it's not going to be a

658
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: knife wound where a serration matches the knives on his

659
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: kitchen countertop and one's missing. That is probably not going

660
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: to be his emo. There are a lot of ways

661
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: to do somebody in without having that level of direct

662
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 3: forensic Lincoln.

663
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: That's a great point, you know, And I think if

664
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: if the three of us were in the war room

665
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: just throwing things out, you know, to me, if there's

666
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: clothing found with the remains, that's going to be the ticket.

667
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: If she's wearing that bathing suit from the last selfish

668
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: she ever took, then that tells you the timeline. That

669
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: means she didn't have dinner wearing that, she didn't go

670
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: to bed wearing that. So that's going to throw his statement,

671
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: like you said earlier, keep him talking where he said

672
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: they grilled out, they made love, they went to bed,

673
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: and he left. Well she's still sleeping, not if she's

674
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: in a bathing suit.

675
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 3: And you know that the crime scene going back to

676
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 3: the house, the crime scene in the house and the

677
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 3: crime scene in the car. Being husband and wife living together,

678
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: it presents the challenge of of course you're going to

679
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: find my prints in my DNA in the house. Of

680
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 3: course you're going to find her prints in some of

681
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 3: her DNA, possibly in my car. So that that creates

682
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: that challenge. It's got to be convincing. It can't just

683
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: be you know, we found DNA from skin cells of

684
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: hers or hair of hers in your car. Well, she's

685
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 3: in my car all the time. So that's that's a hurdle.

686
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: Let the defense at the prosecution has to overcome with

687
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 3: more convincing forensic evidence.

688
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 2: And the other part of the evidence is the crime scene.

689
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: You know, right now, the crime scene is where they

690
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: found her. So they're going to have to hopefully they

691
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: did this just she got to that area somehow, dragged,

692
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: carried in a bag, whatever the case is. But there's

693
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: a way that she got to that location. Somebody dug

694
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: that hole, so maybe they cut themselves. Maybe you know

695
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: something fell out of someone's pocket. You know, anything like

696
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 2: that is possible. That's why the preservation of that scene

697
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: is going to be critical in this investing. Everything surrounding

698
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: that area, the road, you know, you know, all of

699
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: that is going to be part of the cause of

700
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: death and possibly the purpose.

701
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: You know, And going back to the crime scene. Crime

702
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: scene integrity is unbelievably important in these cases, and the

703
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 3: first persons on the scene have got to make sure

704
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 3: that a crime scene is established that's much bigger than

705
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 3: you think you would need. You can always make it tighter,

706
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: you can never bring it out again once you lose

707
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 3: that integrity. So make it a very large crime in

708
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: and out autor area like this. It should be a

709
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: very big area. And you should pick up and put

710
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: into evidence each and every item you see, whether it

711
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: be an empty beer can, a candy wrapper, a cigarette,

712
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: whatever it is. Save it, amen, you never know what

713
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 3: you're going to need it for. Don't throw anything out,

714
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 3: don't look past if there's a pile of garbage, take

715
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 3: all of it.

716
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 1: I worked to say not long ago and I collected something,

717
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: and one of the officers standing there said, why are

718
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: you taking that? It's not a part of it. I said,

719
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: I don't know yet. I'm taking it because I don't

720
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: know how it fits. That's why I need it.

721
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 3: I worked on a homicide once. It was a press

722
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 3: case in New York City and there was four gang

723
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 3: members in a car. It was a robbery homicide on

724
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 3: Park Avenue. They passed around for courage, little airline bottles

725
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 3: of booze, and they committed their robbery homicide and they

726
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 3: took off. They left the car there. They stole the

727
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 3: car for the robbery. They wore gloves, they were very professional,

728
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 3: but they left these bottles there. Now, the original investigating

729
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 3: detective discarded them at the scene. He thought they were useless.

730
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 3: He scooped up. There was a slew of cigarette bus

731
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 3: they'd nervous. They're smoking on the way to do this.

732
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 3: The cigarette buds had amalase, which is a constituent of saliva,

733
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: which has DNA. So that was a very effective tool

734
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 3: for that prosecution. But throwing away the little liquor bottles,

735
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 3: he probably just was like, God, who who these are?

736
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 3: That might have been the owner of the car that's

737
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 3: reported stall Never never assume, I mean that case was

738
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: successful without them, but keep everything.

739
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: Means mode of opportunity. He had it. He's the last

740
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: person to see her alive. He's the person that gave

741
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: a ridiculous reason for her to be missing on this bicycle.

742
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any evidence she was ever on

743
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: the bicycle except the bike was missing. But again, how

744
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: would a stranger know that was her bike to go

745
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: stage that? And the bike's in one direction, the helmet's

746
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: in another. It's you know, how would a stranger know

747
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: the girls weren't there? I mean, none of it makes

748
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 1: any sense, and most strangers do not cause themselves more headache.

749
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: So you're driving one direction to throw the bike, another

750
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: direction to throw the helmet, another direction to hide her body.

751
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: Stranger wouldn't have to do any of that. And another

752
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: thing that I will tell people to walk if they

753
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: want to. There is body cam of when they take

754
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: him into the house to look for the clothes that

755
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 1: she would be wearing if she were on a bike.

756
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: He walked straight in, goes straight to the bedroom, go

757
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: straight to their closet where the hamper is looking for

758
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 1: these clothes. If it were me and my husband was missing,

759
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 1: by the time I hit that doorway, I'm looking around.

760
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: What's not right? If I left walk m column in

761
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: the bed, all I gotta do is look at that

762
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 1: coffee pot, and I can tell you, honey, there ain't

763
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: no coffee. They took him by five o'clock in the morning.

764
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,959
Speaker 1: I'm telling you. If there is no coffee, he's dead.

765
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 3: I sha'n't tell you.

766
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: But he doesn't do that. There's a glass on the

767
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: counter that looks like a glass you would have for

768
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: like orange juice or water, like a regular drinking glass.

769
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: He doesn't look at it, doesn't say, hey, she had

770
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: to be up and she at least had orange juice.

771
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: He doesn't look at dishes in the sink or on

772
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: the stove. Nothing.

773
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: He is a to be right.

774
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: And the reason for that, Charlotte, is all he's thinking

775
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 2: is a one dimensional thinking of staging an area. That's

776
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: the only thing on his mind, not the questions that

777
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: can come from that staging. It's just staging something. So

778
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: someone has a quick optic of that's here, that's here,

779
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: Maybe she wrote a bike, maybe she did this. You know,

780
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: the thought process of, all right, what if someone questions

781
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 2: me about this? What if someone says it is not

782
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: on his mind? And that's why you know, those those

783
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 2: weird things happen that he just bypasses things that you

784
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: would normally do. Like you just said, you know, that's

785
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: when when you again you start making notes and mental

786
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: notes and stuff like that. But you know, when people

787
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: are staging crime scenes, that's the sole thing on their mind.

788
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: Make sure it looks good.

789
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: And when they show up at the crime scene, they

790
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: don't ask the questions you think they would because they

791
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 3: know the answers back to OJ And that's one of

792
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 3: the common screw ups. They're so thinking about that stuff

793
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 3: time said, how do I stage it? They're not asking

794
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 3: the questions or doing the actions of a normal person.

795
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 3: Think to yourself, if you forget your keys, I always

796
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: keep my keys here, they're not here. Where could they be?

797
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: You get that semi panic right? Or your cell phone?

798
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 3: Where is it? Where did I leave it? Yeah, you

799
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 3: would ask normal questions. Was I in the car?

800
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: Was it?

801
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 3: You know when you don't see that out of somebody,

802
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: you know that's very unusual. Again, this is circumstantial stuff,

803
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: But we're painting a picture, and when you have a

804
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 3: broad enough picture of a person acting very unusual, then

805
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: you have reason to really dig in. And I can

806
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 3: tell they did that this case, which it was the

807
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: right thing to do.

808
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: And you know, when we're talking about motive Suzanne and

809
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: Barry med in hoschoal, So for her to choose to

810
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: have an affair with somebody that she knew from high school,

811
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: that might be a little more sting to somebody's ego

812
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: as well, because you know, Walton I'm met in high school,

813
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: and you know, I might ask him, hey, do you

814
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: remember Lorraine? He doesn't remember her. You know she was

815
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: in the chess club, you know she was in the

816
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,479
Speaker 1: debate team. He don't remember her. But if I say,

817
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: do you remember you know Sasha, the big cheerleader, you

818
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: know that can hardly fit in the sweater if you

819
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about. Oh, he remember Sasha immediately.

820
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: You know, knows her class schedule. So I'm saying there,

821
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 1: if Walt was paying more attention to Sasha, it might

822
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: be a little more of a why are you talking

823
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: to her at I reunion so much? You know what

824
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean? So for Bury, the big you know, athlete,

825
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: the big you know, the man that's made such a

826
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: great way in the world, having this leebler again may

827
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: add to if he walked back home and that's who

828
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: she's facetiming with or texting while she's wearing a bathing suit.

829
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 3: And again, if we're talking about somebody who has narcissism

830
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 3: in their heart and soul and they're a sociopath and

831
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 3: they just are really, really ego driven, this kind of

832
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: stuff is devastating to anybody, but to a person like that,

833
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 3: it is soul crushing, and it requires an action that

834
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 3: puts you back in a position of control and makes

835
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 3: you feel like you righted the world. A lot of

836
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 3: people would just would just suffer, feel terrible, get self

837
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 3: destructive when this happens, but some people decide it's time

838
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 3: for action. You know that there's a lot of interesting

839
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 3: plots to this case. If you don't mind not just

840
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 3: kicking with something that I was reminded of. No, please,

841
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 3: his daughters. Their daughters seem very very very much behind

842
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 3: the father. That could be for a reason of dynamics

843
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 3: within the family. It can be because he was a

844
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 3: great father to them. It can be for a lot

845
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: of reasons. But that's usually pretty telling. Now when kids

846
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 3: are in a situation like this where one parent has

847
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,439
Speaker 3: allegedly killed the other, a lot of times they don't

848
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 3: know who to side with. But a normal tendency for

849
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 3: a kid is to side with mom because mom is

850
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 3: the nurturer. And it just I watched these press conferences

851
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 3: and daughters are hand in hand with him and they're

852
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 3: absolutely convinced he's innocent, and that can be very powerful

853
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 3: to public opinion. Doesn't mean a thing in the court,

854
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: but it can be very powerful to public opinion, and

855
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 3: it makes you scratch your head.

856
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: Well, I want to piggyback on that, because I've got

857
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: a friend Betsy Ramsey. She always talks about the two theory.

858
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: Too angry, too rich, too good looking, too mad, too religious,

859
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: whatever it is, you better flag that. So when you

860
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: see the daughters literally, like you said, holding hands with him,

861
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: walking out of court, holding hands, always sitting as close

862
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 1: as they possibly can, holding his hand, that's a flag.

863
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 1: It's actually too much. I mean in the beginning, Shore,

864
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: but now your mom has been missing all this time,

865
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 1: and when she is recovered, her remains are recovered, you

866
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: put out a statement saying, we're grieving. We thought she

867
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: was going to walk back in the door. Where did

868
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: you think she was. Mamma would not leave you, Your

869
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: mama wouldn't miss a cancer appointment. She wouldn't do that,

870
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: so that statement does not ring true to me.

871
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: One in a very interesting little twist to this case

872
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 3: is during the examination of the truck, Barry's truck, they

873
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 3: found DNA unknown DNA, it says, found on the glovebox. Sorry,

874
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 3: it's Suzanne's range rover, wasn't Barry's. It was similar similar

875
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: to the DNA of one mail with three sexual assaults

876
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 3: when it was put into CODIS. So now, first of all,

877
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 3: I don't understand how similar works in DNA. It's a

878
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 3: hit or it's not. But the male with three sexual assaults?

879
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 3: Who is this person? Was there any relation to this

880
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 3: person being in that area at that time? Or is

881
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 3: this a person who lives in is die or is

882
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 3: sitting in a prison in Missouri? We don't know. And

883
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 3: so that hasn't come out that I have read you

884
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 3: no more. I'd love to hear it. But DNA that

885
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 3: didn't match them found on a glove box. It's not

886
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 3: It's a question, right, And that's the kind of thing

887
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 3: a defense can hang on to. But who is this

888
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 3: person that they're I mean for them to throw up

889
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 3: that it was similar to one male with three sexual

890
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 3: assaults in their history. That's bizarre, and it opens the

891
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 3: door to during the course of the medical examiner's examination,

892
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 3: is it going to come back that she was sexually assaulted?

893
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 3: And if so, is there DNA found there and does

894
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 3: it match this? If that's the case, You've got a

895
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 3: whole different perspective on this case. Right. You have somebody

896
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 3: did something to her. It doesn't come back to Leebler,

897
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 3: doesn't come back to the husband, comes back to this

898
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 3: same strand that was found in her car. Then we

899
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 3: have Houston. We have a problem. But if the person

900
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 3: was in her car, how does the bike come into

901
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 3: the situation that it's thrown off the mount It's weird, right,

902
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 3: Everything about this case is weird.

903
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, And to me, you have to look at how

904
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: lucky is this person with the unknown DNA that Barry

905
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: is going to be out of town when he arguably

906
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: should not have been on Mother's Day on a Sunday

907
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: where he can't work his hotel room spelling like Clorox.

908
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: He's throwing trash in all these different places. The bike

909
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: is in one direction, the helmet's in another. And I'm

910
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: going to maintain I do not know many men that

911
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: are going to make a job more difficult. So if

912
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: you snatch this woman her bike is not necessary. Nobody

913
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 1: knows who you are anyway, take her, take her into

914
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: this unknown place, try to dig a grave in that

915
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: rock hard dirt, and get on with your life. This

916
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: person didn't do this. This person took the time to

917
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 1: get her, drive her thirty something miles from the house,

918
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,919
Speaker 1: take her bike and put it in one place, take

919
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: her helmet, put it in another. I mean, that's a

920
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,240
Speaker 1: lot of work for somebody that's not associated with her.

921
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 3: So if you think about where that DNA could have

922
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 3: come from, there's a million reasons why somebody. She could

923
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 3: have gotten her car service. She could have been to

924
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 3: a car wash and had you a full service. Somebody

925
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 3: comes in and washes, you know, you never know what

926
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 3: It would be good to look at her records for

927
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 3: her credit card statements, etc. Have you had car service,

928
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 3: who works at that car service? That these kind of things.

929
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying they didn't do that. I don't

930
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: know the insides of the case, but these are angles

931
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 3: to look at to either eliminate or shift to a

932
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 3: different suspect.

933
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 2: You know, and you bring up DNA DAN you know,

934
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 2: one of the things that I thought of earlier. With

935
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 2: the hotel room and the tools that were accessible, I

936
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 2: would have listen. A lot of bad guys clean off

937
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 2: their own property, you know, if it's used in the

938
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 2: commission of a crime. I would have torn all those

939
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 2: pipes apart in that hotel room to see if they

940
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 2: were cleaned, if anything's in the pipes, if anything's in

941
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: the bathtub, anything around there could have been, you know,

942
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: a DNA catch. You know, I was thinking of that before,

943
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: and then you just brought the DNA up. So I

944
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 2: went back to the hotel room. I would have been

945
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: all over that those pipes.

946
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,240
Speaker 1: To me again, let's go back to the unknown person.

947
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: How lucky is that guy that Barry Morphew decided, I'm

948
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: going to put my phone on airplane mode. I'm going

949
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: to have no contact with my wife on Mother's Day.

950
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to plan anything for Mother's Day. I'm gonna,

951
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, come off with a mountain lion. First thing.

952
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm not going to search for her. I'm going to

953
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: offer a reward for one hundred thousand dollars, but it's

954
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: got an expiration day. How lucky is this stranger that

955
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: he murdered Susanne Morphew, and Barry's going to act this way.

956
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 3: Rights, it's illogical, Right, It doesn't make any sense that

957
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 3: it would be anybody else with him. It just doesn't

958
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 3: sound like it. But remember, we still got to have

959
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 3: that evidence. You've got to have some thing to charge

960
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 3: somebody with a homicide in this country, you have to

961
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 3: have more. You have to have compelling evidence, clear because

962
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 3: you're looking at the rest of a person's life in prison,

963
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 3: and you're looking at an answer for a dead person,

964
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 3: and you want to get the right answer.

965
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 1: Amen, And I think her remains are going to do that.

966
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,359
Speaker 2: If you're going to do it, do it and get

967
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 2: them good, you know, don't kind of halfway around it.

968
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 2: You know, we say it all the time, Dan, We've

969
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 2: said on other things. If you're going to do it,

970
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: do it, take your time doing it, and get all

971
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 2: that's needed to keep him in.

972
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 3: And you know, when they arrested him the first time,

973
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 3: before the body was found, there might have been a strategy.

974
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 3: I'm sure there was. Maybe they had hoped that he

975
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 3: would crumble during an interrogation. This is real. We got you.

976
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: You can sit somebody down and you can tell them

977
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 3: you're done your toast, and psychologically it's very impactful. But

978
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 3: if this guy truly is narcissistic and sociopathic, any room

979
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 3: he's in, he thinks, because he's the smartest person in

980
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 3: the room, he thinks that you're all, you know, subordinate

981
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 3: to him. So he looks at you and he's laughing

982
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 3: at So yeah, whatever, you know. And I have no

983
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 3: idea what took place during any any post arrest interrogation,

984
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 3: or if there even was one, if you lawyer it up,

985
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I just I just know that

986
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 3: with a guy like this, that might have not been

987
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 3: the move that would work well.

988
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,919
Speaker 1: Tom Smith and Dan Murphy, I cannot thank y'all enough

989
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: for being with us tonight. It is just an honor

990
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,240
Speaker 1: for me to talk to y'all and to call y'all friends.

991
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: And I'm going to tell you, Tom, I love what

992
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: you said about Dan about you know, keeping you on

993
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: the right path and let's not you know, violate somebody's

994
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: civil rights, get in trouble. But I tell people all

995
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: the time this is why I call it zone seven.

996
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: You know, those people that are in your zone seven,

997
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: have your back, have your best interest, cheer for you, support, you,

998
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: love you, tell you when you're wrong. So Tom Smith

999
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,439
Speaker 1: and Dan Murphy thank you so much.

1000
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for the opportunity, and just absolutely love

1001
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: being here. And you know we have a thing an

1002
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 2: the NYPD. Cheryl, like you mentioned earlier, now you're in

1003
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 2: our world, You're in part of our family.

1004
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 3: You're screwed and you're not getting rid of us. Good done. Yeah,

1005
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 3: your life as you know it is over.

1006
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,439
Speaker 1: For Yeah, you have no idea how long I've waited

1007
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: to hear that. But I adore you both, and absolutely

1008
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: we are family now.

1009
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 3: Yes, yep, absolutely, Cheryl, thank you so much for this opportunity.

1010
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 3: It's an honor to be on Zone seven with you,

1011
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 3: and we look forward to having a great many more

1012
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 3: conversations with you about cases in the future and talking

1013
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 3: about so many more interesting things because you are absolutely

1014
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 3: an expert in what you do and we will learn

1015
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:43,479
Speaker 3: a lot from you, that's for sure.

1016
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: And y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the way

1017
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: that I always do with a quote, no friendship is

1018
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: an accident. Oh, Henry, I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is

1019
00:57:54,840 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: Zone seven at the TA