1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,200
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

4
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,920
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

5
00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,600
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt

6
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 2: Our colleague Nol is still on an adventure, but will

7
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 2: be returning very soon.

8
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,360
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joyed as always with our

9
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 3: super producer Paul Michig, controlled decad Most importantly, you are here.

10
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,639
Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

11
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 3: Let's begin tonight's exploration with a fantastic, if arguably a

12
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 3: bit pretentious quotation from the excellent writer David Foster Wallace.

13
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 3: There are these two young fish swimming along, and they

14
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 3: happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way,

15
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 3: who nods them and says, Martin, boys, how's the water?

16
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,759
Speaker 3: And the two young fish swim on for a bit,

17
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 3: and then eventually one of them looks over at the

18
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,120
Speaker 3: other and goes, what the hell is water? That's by?

19
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:13,959
Speaker 3: This is water? David Foster Wallace.

20
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 2: Beautiful, beautiful. That describes exactly what each and every one

21
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,559
Speaker 2: of us does when we open our eyes in the morning.

22
00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 3: Right, and we have to participate in this thing that

23
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 3: civilization has decided to call reality. Spoiler, no one knows

24
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,280
Speaker 3: how it works. What is reality? It's a question that's

25
00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 3: haunted philosophers, profits, and scientists throughout the span of known history.

26
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,560
Speaker 3: Conundrum that probably, to be honest, pre dates technology like

27
00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,559
Speaker 3: fire or the written word. We're still trying to figure

28
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 3: it out, and in tonight's episode, we are returning to

29
00:01:50,600 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 3: our own exploration of these strange, heady concepts. Here are

30
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 3: the facts, Matt. Since we're both fans of small talk,

31
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 3: how would you explain reality?

32
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:12,840
Speaker 2: Oh? Hey, pal, how's the air? Reality is the collective

33
00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,639
Speaker 2: thing that we all experience that we then get together

34
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 2: and say, hey, this rocks sure seems hard and solid. Yeah, yeah,

35
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:25,880
Speaker 2: this water sure seems wet and kind of cold at times. Yeah,

36
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 2: it's existence. Reality is experience through a meat body.

37
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you know, I like that, because we're talking

38
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 3: already about sort of the filters through which reality is experienced.

39
00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,400
Speaker 3: For human beings, reality comes through a surprisingly small set

40
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,760
Speaker 3: of inputs and filters. You know. Most of them are

41
00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,919
Speaker 3: what we call physical senses. You taste or smell things,

42
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,519
Speaker 3: you touch things, you see them. You might hear them,

43
00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 3: but there are deeper cuts. We've talked about pro preception.

44
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 3: You know, that's why you can close your eyes and

45
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:04,760
Speaker 3: touch your nose and stuff like that.

46
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 2: But it all goes back to a physical piece in

47
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,359
Speaker 2: your ear right and some of the other things in

48
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,600
Speaker 2: your body that give you those things like balance. And

49
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 2: in the end, it is a physical sense. But it's more,

50
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,000
Speaker 2: as you're saying, than the five right.

51
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then also one thing that philosophers

52
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 3: quarrel over pretty often is the other aspect of what

53
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 3: determines reality, which is the internal or cognitive processing of

54
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,680
Speaker 3: past experiences, the attempts at predicting future changes in your environment.

55
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,240
Speaker 3: And you know, we give humans a hard time on

56
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,480
Speaker 3: this show, but they're not bad at it. They're not

57
00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,200
Speaker 3: bad at that one.

58
00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,240
Speaker 2: Oh well, I don't know. I think I think a

59
00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,320
Speaker 2: lot of us are a little bad at it.

60
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 3: I know, a little bad show a little bad.

61
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we really do color our own lenses, right,

62
00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 2: or the stuff that's happened to us before, that we've

63
00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,320
Speaker 2: done before really does shape the way you see things.

64
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was listening. I'm glad you said that, because

65
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 3: I was listening to some conversations with a fascinating scientist

66
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 3: named Robert Sapolski, and he's talking about some of the

67
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,600
Speaker 3: same stuff we're idating on here. You know. Also another

68
00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,840
Speaker 3: thing to add to the bag of badgers is that

69
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,680
Speaker 3: we as a civilization know many other life forms have

70
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 3: a different sort of kit of sensory inputs, right, like

71
00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:37,480
Speaker 3: electromagnetic sensitivity for birds and sharks. And isn't it can't

72
00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 3: a lot of animals, non human animals, I mean, can't

73
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,600
Speaker 3: they see into like ultraviolet and infrared spectrum?

74
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,719
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well, think about a cat's eyes. That's where

75
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 2: that's why they're so cool to us, because they can

76
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 2: sense stuff that we cannot.

77
00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,280
Speaker 3: You got a ghost hunting cat, I think.

78
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,560
Speaker 2: So Apparently there was a specter right outside my doorway

79
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,240
Speaker 2: last night that I did not observe, but somebody else

80
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 2: did and the kitty cat I didn't notice, the kitty

81
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:06,760
Speaker 2: cat notice anything.

82
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 3: Well, give a time, you know what I mean. New

83
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,240
Speaker 3: at the job. So every ghostthutter has a first day,

84
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,159
Speaker 3: I imagine, And we also know that it gets more

85
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,440
Speaker 3: complicated because not all humans experience reality the same way.

86
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 3: Your existential mileage may differ, and when an individual or

87
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 3: group perception strays too far from the majority perspective or consensus,

88
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,839
Speaker 3: we call those people insane.

89
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,440
Speaker 2: But that concept alone gets to the heart of I

90
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 2: think this episode. In the end, we kind of have

91
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,760
Speaker 2: to choose the way we want to believe the world

92
00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,960
Speaker 2: exists entire right, So when you get down into the

93
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 2: deeper levels, like an individual person and can they actually

94
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 2: perceive something that we cannot, you have to decide whether

95
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 2: or not you believe that right now, at.

96
00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 3: Least you have to observe and measure. Yeah, but.

97
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 2: It also blows our mind. We humans can build the

98
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,320
Speaker 2: most sensitive equipment that can find gravitational waves if we

99
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 2: want them to, which there is no other way for

100
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,719
Speaker 2: humanity or any other life form to detect those things

101
00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 2: that we're aware of. Right now. We can build this

102
00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,159
Speaker 2: giant array right that can find gravity waves, but it

103
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,120
Speaker 2: doesn't mean anything. Those sensors don't mean anything if it

104
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 2: doesn't have an output that turns it into something we

105
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,440
Speaker 2: can either see or hear or to.

106
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:46,040
Speaker 3: Get somehow perceive. And also it doesn't solve the problem

107
00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 3: that humanity still quarrels with, with, which is this what

108
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 3: is gravity? Why, at, how and where and when? Gravity?

109
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,120
Speaker 3: I mean it's the same question with reality. You know

110
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,680
Speaker 3: when gravity is when you know all your gravity are

111
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 3: belong to us. I don't get it. I don't understand gravity.

112
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 3: We also know that reality is neither as to your point,

113
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 3: is neither as consistent nor as constant as it appears

114
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 3: at first blush. You go through your day to day.

115
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 3: Stuff tends to fall at the same I'm throwing things.

116
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 3: Stuff tends to fall at the same measurable pace. You know,

117
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 3: light usually behaves the way one would expect it, as

118
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 3: long as you don't look too closely, because the closer

119
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,480
Speaker 3: you look, the weirder stuff gets. There was a great

120
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,840
Speaker 3: quote from a group OF's journalist writing and new scientists

121
00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,440
Speaker 3: that were talking about reality, and they said the following quote,

122
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 3: we don't know when it began, how big it is,

123
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 3: where it came from, and where it is going. And

124
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,840
Speaker 3: we certainly have no clue why it exists, which I

125
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 3: think is a question a lot of us don't consider often.

126
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 3: Why is reality? I think.

127
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 2: I looked at that article, Ben, and I was like,

128
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 2: I can read up my New Scientist right now, or

129
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,320
Speaker 2: I can read a different article and I read a

130
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,440
Speaker 2: different article. But that's a great way to open. I

131
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:14,960
Speaker 2: think I was like one of the first lines in

132
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,040
Speaker 2: that article.

133
00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 3: And it seems something's haunt you. You know what I mean.

134
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,960
Speaker 3: These folks are definitely good to hang out with, and

135
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 3: they're making an excellent point. You know, the rules get

136
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,760
Speaker 3: fuzzy at the very very small and the very very

137
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,760
Speaker 3: large scale. And this brings us to something that I

138
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 3: think inspired inspired you for this episode this evening, which

139
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 3: is the double Slit Experiment and observer effect.

140
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,320
Speaker 2: Yes, we have to go way back to ye old

141
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds. In fact, the year after it switched over

142
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:55,079
Speaker 2: eighteen oh one, when this fellow named Thomas Young came

143
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,640
Speaker 2: up with a thing that we now know as the

144
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,079
Speaker 2: double Slit experiment, which is very very important. That's why

145
00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 2: we're doing this episode. It is the initial experiment that

146
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,079
Speaker 2: led humanity down a bit of a rabbit hole, and

147
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,640
Speaker 2: it's pretty incredible because it's influenced so many other very

148
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 2: good thinkers to think very hard about the nature of reality,

149
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,800
Speaker 2: and it's attempted to give us a window, maybe a

150
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,080
Speaker 2: two slided window, into what this whole thing is that

151
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,559
Speaker 2: we're going through every day. But why don't you tell

152
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 2: us about this guy?

153
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah, Thomas Young is what we will call it.

154
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 3: Boffin a renaissance man. You might say he's an egghead.

155
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,200
Speaker 3: He's super into all sorts of stuff. He's really good

156
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:45,840
Speaker 3: at math. He contributed research to everything from egyptology to physics.

157
00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 3: And then one day, Lakers said, around the turn of

158
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:55,240
Speaker 3: the century, this guy said, I wonder if Isaac Newton

159
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,880
Speaker 3: is wrong about light. Now, light may seem like an

160
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,200
Speaker 3: academic debate. People were really hot about this at this

161
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 3: time in human history. There was this ongoing argument, what

162
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,360
Speaker 3: is the substance of light? How does light travel? Should

163
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,040
Speaker 3: we think of it like Christian Hugans propose, like a wave,

164
00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,720
Speaker 3: just a maybe wave of stuff emanating from things in

165
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,040
Speaker 3: chemical reactions, or should we think of it like a

166
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 3: series of little pew pew pew particles.

167
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,000
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, well, and when we perceive a light again,

168
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,720
Speaker 2: we go back to our base experience. You turn on

169
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,880
Speaker 2: a light and now there's light everywhere that that light

170
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,199
Speaker 2: can basically shine on. Right, And just that concept of

171
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 2: how does it travel, how does it function? Right? This

172
00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,120
Speaker 2: is a huge deal. The I would say, well, no,

173
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,320
Speaker 2: I know. The prevailing thought there is that they are

174
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,720
Speaker 2: light particles. And then there's another school of thought that is, hey,

175
00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,560
Speaker 2: maybe it is waves. Maybe it does function as waves.

176
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,520
Speaker 2: So we thought, well, maybe here's a cool way to

177
00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,480
Speaker 2: approve that by shining light through two slits.

178
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it is one of the most famous experiments,

179
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,560
Speaker 3: as he said, in all of human history. The tools

180
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,920
Speaker 3: are maybe distressingly simple. You can play along at home.

181
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 3: You just need a light source, a thin card with

182
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 3: two holes or slits cut within it, side by side,

183
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,319
Speaker 3: and then you need to screen. That's right, right, yeah,

184
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 3: And so our buddy young, I guess took a took

185
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,719
Speaker 3: a long enough break from Egyptology to conduct this experiment.

186
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,560
Speaker 3: And his idea was pretty simple. He said, look, just

187
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,880
Speaker 3: like you were saying, Matt, if we if we can

188
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 3: measure the way the light moves, we will determine whether

189
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,719
Speaker 3: it is a wave or a series of particles. If

190
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 3: the light is content, If the light is comprised of particles,

191
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,600
Speaker 3: then it will shoot through those two slits and at

192
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,120
Speaker 3: the screen you will just see two dots, right, And

193
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 3: if it's a wave something different, right, well yeah, or you.

194
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 2: Would at least see the two slits, right, the outline

195
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,560
Speaker 2: of what the slits look like projected on whatever the

196
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,920
Speaker 2: device it is. That you're using to see the light.

197
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:18,040
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and the thing is most of well, a

198
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,120
Speaker 3: great deal of human science is discovered by accident. People

199
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 3: are looking for one thing and they discover another. Right,

200
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,319
Speaker 3: That's how alchemist ended up with chemistry. So Young also

201
00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:36,880
Speaker 3: follows this sort of tendency. He doesn't see what he

202
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,200
Speaker 3: reasonably imagined or predicted. Instead, when he shines this light

203
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,520
Speaker 3: through this double slit experiment, he sees an alternating pattern

204
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 3: of dark and light bands on the screen. The best

205
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,560
Speaker 3: way to describe it maybe is it's kind of like

206
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,239
Speaker 3: a Pointillism version of a barcode.

207
00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,360
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's most intense at the places where you

208
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,000
Speaker 2: would imagine those two slits would have light shine through them,

209
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 2: and then kind of dissipates, getting lesser and lesser as

210
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,480
Speaker 2: you move away from the two slits.

211
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,439
Speaker 3: M yeah, it looks like someone drew a barcode by

212
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,600
Speaker 3: just sort of putting little dots, yeah around.

213
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,360
Speaker 2: Well, that's when Thomas Young isn't shooting particles of light yet, right,

214
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 2: Thomas Young is just using a light source, right, So,

215
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,959
Speaker 2: like you're not getting as much of the dots as

216
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,920
Speaker 2: like the lines.

217
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 3: Right right, right, he is at he has not yet

218
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,600
Speaker 3: well The better way to say it is the double

219
00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,560
Speaker 3: slit experiment is still in its infancy. It still has

220
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,320
Speaker 3: that new car smell. It hasn't been reproduced and refined

221
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 3: over and over. But the patterns that we see remain inexplicable.

222
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 3: So our buddy Young is trying to explain this. He's surprised.

223
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 3: He wants to understand it, and he says, okay, well,

224
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 3: this means light travels through space like a wave of water,

225
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 3: highs and lows, crest and troughs. And thinking this way,

226
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,320
Speaker 3: he said, all right, here's what's happening. Light waves are

227
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 3: traveling through these two you know tunnels, right, very small tunnels,

228
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,040
Speaker 3: and when they get out, they are they are like

229
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:24,400
Speaker 3: expanding on the way when they emerge from these restrictions,

230
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 3: these two slits. And what I'm seeing, he says, is

231
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 3: that bright bands are forming where these two waves of

232
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:37,320
Speaker 3: light overlap, they add together, so they make things brighter

233
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 3: because they're light. And when I see the dark bands,

234
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 3: he says, it's where the crested troths somehow cancel each

235
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,920
Speaker 3: other out. That makes sense, he thinks, kind of, Well.

236
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very similar to observations that had been

237
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 2: done with fluid dynamics and water, and when you've got

238
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 2: interference patterns. Basically, if you try to imagine dropping two

239
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 2: things in the water about let's say, four feet away

240
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,600
Speaker 2: from each other in the same body of water, when

241
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 2: those things hit that body of water, you get the

242
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 2: waves that move out from it right in circles. We've

243
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,600
Speaker 2: all seen this before. Imagine those two sets of circles

244
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 2: start to interact with each other as they're moving, and

245
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,160
Speaker 2: you get the exactly what Ben's describing, these interference patterns.

246
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 3: And this experiment, as we said, has been replicated countless

247
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 3: times with very levels of refinement, with varying levels of

248
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 3: sophistication and measurement. But we're still not at the crazy part,

249
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,000
Speaker 3: and maybe we need a little bit more background for that.

250
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so Young is using a light source, you know,

251
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 2: as we were saying, and light sources have gotten more

252
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 2: and more complicated and intricate over the years. We've also

253
00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 2: humanity has figured out how to shoot basically beams of light,

254
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 2: think lasers, think very specific photon emitters. These are things now,

255
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 2: So you can send out a single particle and or

256
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 2: wave of light, a single instance, let's say, of a

257
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 2: light and so when you can now do that, and

258
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 2: you've still got this double slit experiment going. You find

259
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,800
Speaker 2: some weird things because sometimes when you shoot those single

260
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 2: light particles and or waves out, one will travel through

261
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,160
Speaker 2: either the left slit or the right slit, And it

262
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,080
Speaker 2: gets really weird when you try and detect which of

263
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 2: the two slits a single particle goes through.

264
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the creepy part. If either path through those slits,

265
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,240
Speaker 3: and I hate that we're saying slit so much, but that's,

266
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 3: you know, the name of the experiment. If either path

267
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 3: is monitored, then stuff will seem to pass through a

268
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 3: discrete choice. It will go either through aperture A or

269
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,400
Speaker 3: through aperture B. But if you shoot the light through

270
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 3: and you do not measure it, and you do not

271
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 3: monitor it, then those photons, regardless of how sophisticated or

272
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,640
Speaker 3: crude your light emitting device is, those photons will appear

273
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,919
Speaker 3: to have passed through both of those spaces at the

274
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 3: same time and then interfere with themselves, acting like a wave.

275
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,480
Speaker 3: Poor k Nolos dose. Man, it's nuts.

276
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 2: It seems to say that our basic understanding for a

277
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,440
Speaker 2: long time of what light and perhaps matter, even at

278
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,919
Speaker 2: the tiniest forms is still elementary, and we don't fully

279
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:52,200
Speaker 2: understand what it is. And that is freaky because scientists

280
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,040
Speaker 2: since that time, since the eighteen hundreds, as you said, Ben,

281
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 2: have been attempting to refine this experiment in ways, you know,

282
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 2: using very different things. We're gonna get in to. But

283
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,159
Speaker 2: nobody still I hate to I feel like I'm spoiling everything.

284
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 2: Nobody still has an exact grasp on what the heck

285
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 2: these particles slash waves really are and how they actually function.

286
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 3: Not even a spoiler. It would be a spoiler if

287
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,280
Speaker 3: someone listening tonight knew what was going on, right to us,

288
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,200
Speaker 3: conspiracy iHeartRadio dot com like help science improve.

289
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 2: No, there's no end to the number of people who

290
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 2: have a hypothesis, right.

291
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we got to get Terrence Howard.

292
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 2: On the phone one at times one what happened to

293
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,240
Speaker 2: the other one?

294
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 3: So this is the observer effect, which will be familiar

295
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 3: to a lot of us. It's the idea that a

296
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 3: system may be influenced or affected or disturbed simply by

297
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 3: the act of observing that system in progress, or a

298
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,359
Speaker 3: better way to say it is the idea of measuring

299
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 3: that system may influence the results of those measurements.

300
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 4: Right, but it seems to influence the behavior exactly exactly,

301
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 4: And that's the troubling thing that's kind of our deep water, right,

302
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 4: whether particles or waves. In the observer effect, you know,

303
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 4: maybe a metaphor or a comparison, a simile, excuse me,

304
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 4: it is the best way to think about it. The

305
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 4: observer effect is kind of like that old story about

306
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 4: watching a pot of water and waiting for it to boil.

307
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,440
Speaker 4: But in the observer effect, the fact that you are

308
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 4: looking at the water changes weather or not the water

309
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,680
Speaker 4: boils and how it boils. And that is, by the way,

310
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 4: as far as we know, looking at a pot of

311
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 4: water about to boil, your perspective does not influence that.

312
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 4: You can unless you are unless you have like low

313
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 4: key pyrokinesis, you are not making water boil faster or cryokinesis.

314
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,879
Speaker 2: That's why this is so frustrating. We've created technology, a

315
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 2: pot in a way to make fire underneath that pot,

316
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 2: and some clean water to put in that pot, and

317
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 2: we put all those things together and we know, hey,

318
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 2: eventually that water's going to boil, right, I know it.

319
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,400
Speaker 3: For sure, right with based on our understanding of linear

320
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 3: time as well, which gets even weirder. I mean, this

321
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 3: takes us to the concept of wave collapse, right, the

322
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 3: old dilemma of Schrodinger's cat, The cat is both alive

323
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 3: and dead until you open the box. I don't know,

324
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 3: I think there was. This is already kind of weird,

325
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 3: but I was thinking, Matt about different ways to play

326
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 3: with the concept of observer effect. It's you know, we

327
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 3: often take it to mean in popular science that a

328
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 3: conscious mind can somehow affect reality. And perhaps that is true,

329
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,439
Speaker 3: but there's no current proof that the observer or the

330
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 3: measuring device needs to be conscious. It makes me wonder, like,

331
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: if we got different non human animals together and had

332
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 3: them watch the double slit experiment, would that affect it?

333
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? And if so, which animals

334
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 3: count as observers in that regard.

335
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 2: I think all of them, man, I think anything that

336
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 2: has senses is conscious in some degree or another. Like

337
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 2: I've fully come to believe that now. It just over

338
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,360
Speaker 2: the years been we as we've been learning about what

339
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 2: we would call animal intelligence. Like all honestly, Man, you've

340
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 2: inspired me a lot with your fascination with it, because

341
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: it makes me want to learn more, especially when it

342
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 2: comes to like Corvid's and some of the things we've

343
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,719
Speaker 2: kind of had a deep dive into and cetaceans. It

344
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: feels like like even plants now when we did that episode,

345
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: even plants may have a consciousness that we have previously

346
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,640
Speaker 2: just kind of thrown out and said, that's not consciousness.

347
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 2: They're not thinking about thinking like are you sure though?

348
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 3: You sure about that's why? Yeah, yeah, well I appreciate that.

349
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 3: I mean, I think we're we we're often on the

350
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 3: same page with these sorts of these sorts of questions

351
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 3: because one thing we can all agree on, hopefully those

352
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 3: of us playing along at home as well, is this

353
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 3: every experiment like this. It might be challenging, it might

354
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 3: be scary. Uh, reality is philosophically terrifying because it's a

355
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 3: thing that no one can escape and no one understands.

356
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 3: All of it shows us that there's a there is

357
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 3: a tremendous amount of stuff we do not know about

358
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 3: the universe or universes. I'm being that guy that we

359
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 3: in which we reside. I mean, I guess it's an

360
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 3: ad break. But without getting into further into some of

361
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 3: the murky waters of quantum thought, McCann. We also know

362
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: that humans, despite not understanding regular reality, are building new realities.

363
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 3: That's kind of weird.

364
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: It is weird, and I love those realities, a lot

365
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 2: of them. Some of them might detest, but a lot

366
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 2: of them I'm really into, especially the ones that have

367
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: good stories and gameplay, which is really just what makes

368
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: a good game. Anyway. What can those virtual worlds teach

369
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 2: us about this very real world?

370
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 3: Yeah? What does it mean? What could it mean for

371
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: reality today? For reality in the future. Here's where it

372
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 3: gets crazy. All right, how would we explain virtual reality?

373
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 3: The most crappy explanation is it's a version of a

374
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 3: thing that was around earlier that we still don't understand.

375
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well, yeah, it's it's a simulated closed system reality.

376
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 3: Right.

377
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: It's a device, a system of devices that can trick

378
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: your meat sensors into believing that those sensors are interacting

379
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: in some other place, at some other time, in some

380
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 2: other way.

381
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, put, I think what personal experiences do you

382
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 3: recall the first time you engaged with something we'll call

383
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: virtual reality in like the technological sense.

384
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was a friend. It was my

385
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: cousin who had one of these like an early oculus

386
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: that you had to plug in, so it was your

387
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: computer was directly plugged into it through cables. It wasn't

388
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 2: one of these little, you know, wireless guys that are

389
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: running around today. And I remember the feeling specifically of

390
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 2: doing the It's kind of like the playing thing that

391
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: Noel's talked about on the show here before, where you're

392
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: up at a very tall height and this device tricks

393
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: you into feeling as though you are very high up

394
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: and you have, or at least I experienced bodily reactions

395
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: to that feelings the way my body would react if

396
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 2: I was on the edge of a.

397
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: Building because it hacked your pro preception exactly. Yeah, yeah,

398
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: And I like the idea of emulating input such that

399
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 3: the body's sensory filters say this is real, or it's

400
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 3: real enough that we're not going to take the chance

401
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 3: of you falling off this plank, exactly.

402
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: And that goes to everything in some of the zombie

403
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 2: games that have come out over the years, some of

404
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: the games where there's a real fear, a fight or

405
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: flight response to something that you see as adversarial coming

406
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: at you, or you can hear it right, it sounds

407
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: like it's around the corner. It hacks you in ways

408
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: that I'm still uncomfortable with.

409
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we need to know more. I mean, this

410
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: is the surprising thing. All right, brief history of virtual reality,

411
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: and we're going somewhere with this, folks. The term itself

412
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: is relatively new, Like when most people hear the phrase

413
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 3: virtual reality, you're thinking of immersive technological experiences. But the

414
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 3: concept is inarguably ancient. It's metaphysical belief, it's gnosticism, it's

415
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 3: Plato's cavern, it's imagination. Every time you have a dream,

416
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 3: you have created a virtual reality or just a day dream.

417
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 3: You know, it's like, like you said, a closed system

418
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 3: of experience. That's what a virtual reality is, which means

419
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: that every thought you have that you really think about,

420
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: you're kind of making another world. Nothing weird, we're fun

421
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 3: at parties. It's a Matroshka doll of nested realities, worlds

422
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: within each other.

423
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and how you think about yourself affects the

424
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: worlds you create, and then all the other characters that

425
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 2: inhabit those worlds. Right, And the way you think about

426
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: individuals and the way you hear a phrase from somebody, right,

427
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: or if you're walking down the street and somebody says

428
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,479
Speaker 2: hey to you, What what does that mean? When somebody

429
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: says hey to you when you're walking down the street,

430
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: your little your bubble of reality that you're projecting ends

431
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 2: up changing. Oh my god, it changes that source, right

432
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: it We all do it.

433
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 3: It's a You know what's interesting about that that concept

434
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: as well is that it leads us to the argument

435
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: that one is never truly interacting with another or instead

436
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: interacting with your perception of a person.

437
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: Oooh no, totally, wow.

438
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 3: Sanias have us over. But like I think you raise

439
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: an excellent point there, Matt. I mean, the rules get

440
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 3: fuzzy when we talk about virtual reality. You can witness,

441
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: like you were talking earlier about Catharsis right, you can

442
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: witness versions of reality in film, in books, in a

443
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 3: good song. And on some level we could say, oh,

444
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: I know, this isn't the real world, but experiencing those

445
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 3: glimpses outside of agreed upon analog reality has this crazy effect.

446
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 3: You said something I want to go back to. I

447
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: was not aware of this. In the early days of film, right,

448
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: no one has seen a film. What is that In

449
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: the early days of film, One of the famous stories

450
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: is a group of people a symbol to watch some

451
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: moving camera and it's still all silent film at this point,

452
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: and it the part of what they're seeing features a train, Paul,

453
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 3: can we get like a scary train noise? Perfect? They

454
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: see a train moving toward the camera, hurtling along the

455
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 3: rails from the camera's point of view. We've all seen

456
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: stuff like that before, right, but these folks had never

457
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: seen a film before. They freaked out. They're like, jump

458
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: it away, like, is.

459
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: That an actual train that is coming at us right now? Well,

460
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: then forget about the first time a gun was pointed

461
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: at the camera. That was horrifying as well. And those

462
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: little tricks, like even the movement of trees in the background,

463
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: just sitting in a darkened theater and there's light projected

464
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: on the wall and it looks as though the trees

465
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: are moving. Love I man, I wish Paul was on

466
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: this episode because he could tell us all about the

467
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: history of some of this stuff with his film knowledge.

468
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: But man it it is weird how we've been tricking

469
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: ourselves mostly with light and sound for so long for fun.

470
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Profit, well, there there's a profit motive. But you

471
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 3: could say we've been tricking ourselves with the concept of

472
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 3: currency in general. But also there's interesting there are these cyclical,

473
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: interesting breakthroughs in olfactory smell technology, and it just hasn't

474
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: caught on yet because you know, it's weird.

475
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: That's the sixty experience.

476
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: Right, I mean this sounds funny. Now maybe with the

477
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: benefit of retrospect we can say, oh, those folks were silly.

478
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 3: But even just the idea of putting yourself in a

479
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 3: moment where a gun is pointed at you in any context,

480
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 3: that is a frightening thing, and it shows us a

481
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,959
Speaker 3: very important lesson perception is kind of reality. You know,

482
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 3: at this point, perception is reality. You could also say

483
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 3: perspective is power. We'll get to it. But humans have

484
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: been creating new realities all the time forever, and with

485
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: each technological innovation, like you were saying, the ability to

486
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: create these worlds only expands, and these worlds become more sophisticated,

487
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 3: they have a closer fidelity to the world you're used to.

488
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: They may one day become indistinguishable. And I was surprised

489
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 3: to learn just the term virtual dates back to the

490
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 3: fourteen hundreds. Had no idea, well.

491
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: What okay, if it goes back that far, what is

492
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: the even what could it mean?

493
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: It comes from It ultimately comes from a Latin phrase

494
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: meaning excellence, potency or efficacy or literally manliness. That's a

495
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: weird one, oh yeah. But the idea is, if something

496
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: is virtual, it is it has for similitude, it is

497
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 3: very much like the real thing. So, okay, you know

498
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: when some we say in American English, pretty often it's

499
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 3: virtually impossible to blah blah blah, or it's virtually certain

500
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: that so and so, and usually I think colloquially that

501
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: means there is a ninety percent plus chance of something.

502
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: But virtual in the fifteen or fourteen hundreds and so on,

503
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: it basically meant really close to real, right, not concrete,

504
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 3: but close enough that unless you actually smack the stone,

505
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 3: you would think this was the thing. It wasn't used

506
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 3: in computing until nineteen fifty nine. So the fast forward

507
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: through the etymology here. The earliest use of the full

508
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: term virtual reality is actually French la realite that you,

509
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 3: and it comes from nineteen thirty eight, and it is

510
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,959
Speaker 3: entirely from this playwright who talked about theater as an

511
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 3: alternate version of reality, curated reality theater is double and

512
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 3: that so he writes that in thirty eight. It gets

513
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: published in nineteen fifty eight, and then just a year later,

514
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 3: the boffins and the pioneering parents of computing start using

515
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: the phrase virtual reality to talk about software.

516
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well I would just say software and hardware, right,

517
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: because the virtual realities that have been created don't do

518
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: anything for your appropriate reception if they're just on a screen.

519
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: Because humans, as you said, have been exposed to light

520
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: projected for a long time, which is just our screens now, right,

521
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: So if you're playing a video game system, it's not

522
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: really a virtual reality experience. You got to have that trickery, right,

523
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: which is this is Jerrem Lanier, I think, is how

524
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: you say it. He's a big, big deal.

525
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agreed. A legend in his own right. He's

526
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,719
Speaker 3: often called the founding father of virtual reality. He's a

527
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: fascinating guy. We've referred to his work in previous episodes.

528
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: I love, love, love love hearing this guy talk. I

529
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: love learning his thoughts, even if I don't always agree.

530
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 3: He he worked at Atari in the eighties. He left

531
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 3: and he founded the first company to sell VR goggles

532
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: and wired gloves like you're talking about the hardware you need.

533
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 3: Did you ever have a power glove?

534
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: I did have a power glove, for sure, but I

535
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: never got to mess with this stuff. And I think

536
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: we mentioned it on a different episode maybe last time

537
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: we did a simulated reality episode or something. We talked

538
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: about how simple the software was, like what you actually

539
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: saw and interacted with when you had those goggles on

540
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: and wore those gloves. That was just a couple of

541
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: polygons basically that moved super slowly. But still that the

542
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: real hack in there is that your hands and head

543
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: movement are controlling what you're experiencing.

544
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And you know, there might be some of

545
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 3: us tonight who say it's wrong for us to call

546
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: it trickery, but it is. You know, they are just polygons.

547
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: Come on, come on, we're not being jerks. We're telling

548
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 3: you it's not the same as the other world world prime,

549
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. And this is this can

550
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: be a beautiful and terrifying thing. You know. Lanier has

551
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: talked at length about the online world, and the funny

552
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: thing is the further we get in this new arms

553
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: race of innovation, the more prescient his statements become. He

554
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 3: knows what he's talking about. He wants people to be

555
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: ready for some very weird stuff, you know, like I

556
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 3: don't know. Fiction is priming as for it too, Like

557
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 3: remember a Ready Player one?

558
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: I do, Yes, we're I guess it was a lot

559
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: of the economy then at that point is wrapped up

560
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: in those virtual worlds that are creating. There's like a

561
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: one there's one company that rules all of those words.

562
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: And I've watched it not that long ago, and I

563
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: really do enjoy the story. But I don't think we're

564
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 2: there yet, but we're getting closer and closer to the

565
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: point where people want to spend time in those virtual

566
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: worlds the same way. I'm literally sitting here thinking about

567
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: the world of Fallout four, and I want to get

568
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: back in there for just a little bit because I haven't.

569
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: I haven't played it in a couple of days. But

570
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: it's not it doesn't have no bearing on anything in

571
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: my life, but I still want it.

572
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: And it does have I mean, those experiences are close

573
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 3: enough to you know, your experience walking around in this environment, right,

574
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: Those experiences are close enough that they can trigger neurological reactions,

575
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 3: even hormonal changes. I think there is something real about them.

576
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 3: You know what I mean to some degree. And of

577
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: course everybody's been a gamer or reads a lot, you

578
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: might have that weird feeling when you beat a game,

579
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 3: you know, and the credits roll, or you finish a

580
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: book and you think, oh, I'm back, Yeah, what do

581
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 3: I do now?

582
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: Well, and you also are gifted with this feeling of accomplishment,

583
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: even though all you did was press some buttons for

584
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 2: a long time and set on the couch for too long.

585
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 2: But you know, look, and I say that as a

586
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: lover of games, and I will defend my right and

587
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: you're right to play them, and that it's actually pretty

588
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 2: good for us in a lot of different ways. But

589
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: in the end, in this reality, it truly is at

590
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 2: best sharpening your perception.

591
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 3: Right right perception, and right now, as we record on

592
00:37:53,719 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 3: June third, four, it is virtually certain there we go

593
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 3: that people know when they are in one of these

594
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 3: human created environments. They know when they are in a curated,

595
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 3: constrained experience. That's why and Ready Player one, everybody knows

596
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 3: they're logging into a thing and they're going online. Everybody

597
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 3: knows that they're incentivized socially and economically to do so,

598
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: but they are very much aware there is a different

599
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 3: preceding world. But then there's another thing. One of our

600
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 3: favorite films on this show throughout its history is The

601
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 3: Matrix in The Matrix's nested reality, and most people don't

602
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: know they're in it. They don't get to consent.

603
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, all of their sensory systems are hooked up

604
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: to hardware that makes them believe they are in reality,

605
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: which is a creepy thing to think about. And I've

606
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,479
Speaker 2: been thinking about it since nineteen ninety nine and iils

607
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: shall never cease thinking about it until I'm unplugged Trinity

608
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: or whoever she drops down and gets me out of here.

609
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 3: I also I keep thinking, you know, I think you

610
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: can be haunted by good thoughts, just the way you

611
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 3: could be haunted by a spirit.

612
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: And I.

613
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 3: Will never forget the explanation line. It's a throwaway line

614
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 3: in this amazing film where they say maybe we're something like,

615
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 3: maybe we're in a simulation. Now they didn't know what

616
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 3: everything tasted like. That's why everything tastes like chicken. Oh God,

617
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:31,479
Speaker 3: do you remember that line?

618
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I couldn't tell you what it's from. Right

619
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: to us, it's from the Matrix. Oh it is from

620
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 2: the Matrix? Yeah, is that when they're talking about steak,

621
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: he's trying to what's his name, Joey Pantoli one Joey

622
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: Pants is like, man, this steak is so good. Yeah,

623
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: I want steak.

624
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 3: I think maybe that's it. We got to rewatch it.

625
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: But yeah, right to us, because it'll give us an

626
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 3: excuse to rewatch the film. You know, it's weird and

627
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: we've known each other for so long and I don't

628
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 3: think we've ever watched it together. Just keep talking about it.

629
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, hey, quick shout out for the episode of

630
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: Movie Crush where I talked to Chuck about the Matrix

631
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: and we go deep on. I think that line is

632
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: in there in our discussion bit about the chicken.

633
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: Nice. Movie Crush is great. I never got a chance

634
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: to be on it, but I loved hearing the conversations

635
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 3: and Chuck is a phenomenal interviewer.

636
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 2: We need to bring it back.

637
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll see what he says. You know, and I

638
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: think they're on tour right now, so check out stuff

639
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 3: you should know on the road if you get a chance.

640
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 3: Show not to be missed for the nature of like,

641
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: if we wanted to or if some entity wanted to

642
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 3: arrive at a seamless virtual world, a matrix level world

643
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 3: in which people could not distinguish between the world d're

644
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: in now and a created or curated one. Lanier had

645
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: a couple of big speed bumps, and in twenty thirteen

646
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 3: he talked about something that Matt you would mentioned earlier,

647
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 3: the two big problems hardware and software. He said, hardware

648
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 3: is going to solve itself eventually, just with economy of scale.

649
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 3: The more you make, the more iterations you make of

650
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: a thing, the cheaper the thing becomes in the grand

651
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 3: religion we call economy. But the software is the pickle. Right.

652
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: Virtual worlds have to respond much more quickly for human users,

653
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 3: but you have to have multiple people coming in and connecting.

654
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 3: The network has to be seamless, and he says it's

655
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 3: going to take a while to figure out how to

656
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 3: make the network work without hiccups, and that you know,

657
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you about this, Matt. It reminds

658
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 3: me of the concept of lag when you're playing video games.

659
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: Have you ever played online and got caught up in

660
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 3: a like a lag situation? Oh?

661
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've broken several controllers because of Lad's broken them.

662
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: I've lost several very important to online characters due to

663
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 2: lag and getting logged out because I think my family

664
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: needed to make a phone call. My fifty six K

665
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: modem was attached and when they unplugged it and it

666
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 2: was over. But yes, this concept of lag, if your

667
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: perception of reality could be so easily interrupted by like

668
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: a couple of frames getting dropped or skipped right, then

669
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: you would lose that proprioception trickery and it would no

670
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: longer feel like a virtual world of connecting this back

671
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: to our shared reality, this one that you're listening to

672
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: this podcast in. I've never experienced lag like that we've experienced. Maybe, well,

673
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: I know I have experienced some weird things with reality,

674
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: like a blip in time, or when the lights all

675
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 2: flicker at once, or a weird sound, or you know,

676
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: seeing a specter in my doorway where it makes you

677
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: feel like, oh, well, maybe this reality isn't exactly what

678
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 2: we all think it is, or it doesn't function the

679
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: way we all think it does. But I've never seen

680
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: anything like lag, which is a terrible and real problem

681
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 2: when it comes to processing that much information at once

682
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 2: for multiple people. But I would argue, and what'd you say?

683
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: Linear said this a long time ago.

684
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: Twenty thirteen, it's about ten years ago.

685
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: So I think we're actually there now. If you think

686
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 2: about some of these large scale games that are run

687
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 2: in the cloud essentially at once and served to everybody

688
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: essentially via a supercomputer of sorts, I think we might

689
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: be there.

690
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're getting very close, right. And one thing that's

691
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 3: fascinating about human technology is as it improves, it tends

692
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: to emulate parts of nature. Right, the most sophisticated systems

693
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 3: and structures and processes are echoing things that already naturally occurred,

694
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 3: because that's the most efficient way for that stuff to work,

695
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: and natural reality also already needed hardware and software. The

696
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 3: hardware is your body and all the physical forces surrounding

697
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 3: you've seen and unseen. And the software is your mind

698
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 3: as you're listening now. I'm trying to make my eyes

699
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 3: look less crazy. Sorry, your mind as you're listening now,

700
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 3: and the minds of every other living thing you encounter.

701
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 3: The tricky part is not all the software is the same.

702
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 3: And I'm still stuck to your point. Yes, I agree,

703
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 3: massive online role playing or massive online gaming in general,

704
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: is reducing a lot of lag I'm just thinking about

705
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 3: waking up one evening and you walk outside and you

706
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: have a laggy connection with the world. You know, that

707
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: would be so weird.

708
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 2: Ben, you said that in your video. Froze as you said,

709
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: and then it picks back up. That was nuts.

710
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 3: Let's not let look too closely, right, Let's take reality

711
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 3: at its word. All right, Well, we'll check our connections.

712
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 3: Uh and uh, you know, play some mats. Okay, we

713
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 3: have returned, as we said, Matt, you and Paul and

714
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 3: I are recording this on June third, twenty twenty four.

715
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 3: And I love the point you made that we are

716
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 3: in an era of breakthroughs, right, escalating breakthroughs, feedback loops

717
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 3: of innovation, and I think a lot of the stuff

718
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 3: that was once considered science fiction is becoming science fact. Right.

719
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 3: Do you think we'll reach a point where someone would

720
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: be unable to distinguish a virtual reality from a physical reality.

721
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: Hopefully not, and hopefully creators of such realities would know

722
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: how dangerous that could be. I think you would build

723
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 2: in something, whether it's a hud like a head's up display,

724
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: or something that would make you aware at all times

725
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: that you are not in actual reality.

726
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 3: At that up.

727
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 2: Well, it could be that, but just something in the

728
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: corner that's literally a menu or something, or a place

729
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: where you could place your hand, and everybody knows if

730
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: you put your hand here, you will bring up the

731
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: menu every time, or a button or something to where

732
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 2: a human being, you'd make it a lot less likely

733
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: that a human being could get fully.

734
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: Lost, right yeah, kind of similar to I think in

735
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: some countries it was China, there were moves to restrict

736
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: the amount of time people could spend immersed in like

737
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 3: you know, an internet cafe, right, yeah, because people were

738
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,479
Speaker 3: going so deep, going so hard, to the point where

739
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 3: the only thing that took them out of that experience

740
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 3: was the physical need for stuff like food, water, and excrement,

741
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: you know.

742
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: Which was often solved by getting a little creative with

743
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 2: your seat.

744
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, getting a little spicy with the seat. And

745
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 3: we know, like, I appreciate what you're saying there, because

746
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 3: I think it is statistically inevitable that humans and machines

747
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 3: will continue to meld together like increasingly inextricable. You know,

748
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: it sounds it sounds nuts to say, what if there's

749
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: a world in a few years where you have an

750
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 3: AI avatar that legally represents you. It does. It's like

751
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 3: your valet, your digital doppelganger. It does all the stuff

752
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 3: that you need or that you don't want to do. Uh,

753
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 3: And that sounds nuts. But not too long ago, people,

754
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: I thought it was ridiculous that someone would always have

755
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: a cell phone or a smartphote. You know, why would

756
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: you spy on yourself? And now billions do it.

757
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you can see it already in the workings

758
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 2: of things like Siri and Alexo, where you can program

759
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 2: those pieces of hardware and software to give you an

760
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 2: update on your day. Right here. You can give it

761
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: access to your email, right in your schedule and all

762
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: this stuff. And even in Microsoft with ourly enterprise systems,

763
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 2: you can it will say, Hey, morning, Ben, here's what's

764
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: on your plate for the day. This person has a

765
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: question about this, this person has a question about that.

766
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: You need to do this, and you can. It's I

767
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 2: don't think it's automated fully to the point where you could,

768
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: through that system just give it a couple of quick

769
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: answers and then it would reply to all the emails

770
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: and do the things exactly the way you'd want it to.

771
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 2: But I imagine that's coming up very soon where you have

772
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: like a meeting in the morning, you know, five minute

773
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 2: meeting to get the rundown, take care of all all

774
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: your stuff, and then anything else that pops up, you

775
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: get alerted to it.

776
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 3: And it's normalized now because it's a common thing that

777
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 3: people can experience. Right, Google or Alexa. We have given

778
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 3: these identities to these things. We have put a language

779
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 3: and nomenclature upon them. I mean, also, let's just say

780
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 3: it out loud, a lot of us are listening to

781
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 3: this on those same smartphones we're describing, or on the

782
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 3: Alexa right or the Amazon Echo or what have you.

783
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 3: I also, I think what's gonna happen is humans are

784
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 3: gonna finally get past the hands. I think that's another

785
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 3: step too.

786
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: I hope not. I like the hands.

787
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: I like, you know, I'm a fan of hands. Yeah,

788
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 3: I'm a fan of hands. I will die of that

789
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 3: hill if I have to, if need be. But you know,

790
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 3: it's gonna sound crazy like for anyone who just had

791
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: a child this year, first off, congraduate relations. Secondly, if not,

792
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 3: by the time your kid is thirty, by the time

793
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 3: your kid has a kid that turns eighteen. If the

794
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 3: world doesn't collapse, it is going to sound crazy that

795
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 3: you used to type with your hands.

796
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, used to type with your hands, used to do

797
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: so many things with your hands. But now you kind

798
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: of just you can wave if you want in a

799
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: couple of different ways. You can still use them. Just

800
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: don't like touch anything.

801
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 3: Why would you touch stuff? What are you old? You know? Like,

802
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 3: I do think it's funny how we normalize these things.

803
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 3: But it'll maybe go the way of the old modem

804
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 3: scream like we were talking about with the fifty six

805
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 3: bit connection. Was that one of those things where it

806
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 3: goes through the phone line and it has that weird noise.

807
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ultimately it's using your phone system, the same lines

808
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: that connect your phone to the outer world in the network.

809
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 2: It's using that to dial literally dial in to the

810
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: Internet to a server somewhere.

811
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 3: And we don't even have to play the noise. I

812
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 3: think we can all hear it. Oh, well, should we

813
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 3: play it?

814
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: Anybody born in the nineteen hundreds, Yes.

815
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: Dary Fault, Yes, please play it. Oh, you'll love to

816
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 3: hear it. You'll love to hear it. Do you think

817
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 3: it's likely, though, or possible that a that within the

818
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 3: lifetime of people listening. Now, would it be possible for

819
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 3: an individual to one day live entirely within a constructed

820
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 3: reality and not know?

821
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 2: I think maybe someone's born into a system.

822
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 3: Like matrix style. Could it happened.

823
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like that's not going to

824
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: happen unless it plays out literally like the matrix where

825
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 2: man versus machine and man for some reason is useful

826
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 2: to machine. But I don't think it would be right.

827
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 3: That was the nicest part of the Matrix mythos was

828
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 3: the computer Empire, the robot Empire. Machine Empire decided, well,

829
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 3: we'll keep them around for something.

830
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 2: Batteries, Yeah, batteries and goo. They make such good goo.

831
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 3: Guys, have you ever had quality human goo? Oh? Boy,

832
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 3: I don't know if we should keep that one.

833
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 2: We take it over. You want all kinds of different.

834
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 3: Good perception and perspective. Yeah, this might be helpful when

835
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 3: we're talking about this before we get to a back

836
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 3: to observer effect, which is what we're kind of setting

837
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 3: up here, right, It may be helpful given that every person,

838
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 3: a meat person or a digital person, what have you.

839
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 3: Everyone is living in a kind of self constructed reality.

840
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 3: Perception is your reality. But it is your specific reality.

841
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 3: It's the stuff you experience assume to be correct. Other

842
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 3: perceptions are not the same as yours, and that's part

843
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 3: of the reason people argue so often. So it might

844
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 3: be better to think in terms of perspective. You know,

845
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 3: perception says, I am the ultimate arbiter of my world, right,

846
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 3: I am the protagonist the way I encounter and experience

847
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 3: and understand things, that's the main thing. And if someone

848
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 3: has a problem with that, they're wrong. But if we

849
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 3: move from perception to perspective, then we can ask how

850
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: a reality is different, what is it that this person

851
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 3: or this entity is experiencing, And we can try to

852
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 3: The weird way to put it is it's like trying

853
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 3: to understand the alien software of another mind, and it's

854
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 3: a tough thing to do. You know, I guess it's empathy.

855
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, for empathy.

856
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's going a long way. You know,

857
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 3: we'll see how it does.

858
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

859
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 3: Man.

860
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 2: I have an eight year old, so I know that

861
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 2: the only way for him to truly learn lessons doesn't

862
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: matter how many times I tell him what the lesson is,

863
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 2: what the parameters of it are, what the outcomes potentially

864
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 2: are Unless he does a thing and experiences the consequences

865
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: of that thing, it doesn't seem to sink into his head.

866
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 2: And I'm sure I was the same way. I'm sure

867
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 2: most of us are the same way. I just don't

868
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: know how any of us can truly understand something until

869
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 2: it has happened to us, right, or we have observed

870
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 2: it and perceived it and then basically applied our perspective

871
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 2: to it.

872
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it reminds me of It was a little bit

873
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 3: of a personal thing. I'll keep it short. It reminds

874
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 3: me of an adage I learned from my mother before

875
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 3: she passed. She was a teacher for some time, and

876
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 3: she had some I'm trying to remember. It was something like,

877
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 3: when I hear, I forget. When I see, I remember

878
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 3: when I do, I understand that.

879
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Maybe you know, maybe I feel that way.

880
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 2: I totally feel that way, except well, well, yeah, the

881
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: only the only thing I Some people learn really well

882
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 2: when they hear and not well when they see. Right,

883
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 2: So just that's the only thing, buttally exactly, but I

884
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 2: totally understand exactly what that means. If I haven't done

885
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: a thing, I don't really understand what it is or

886
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 2: how it feels.

887
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 3: Also, there's nothing in that little proverb about the smell,

888
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, what happens when you smell?

889
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 3: How does that? What if someone what if someone said, oh,

890
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 3: my primary learning style is smell? Could you explain algebra

891
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 3: in like a more old factory way here?

892
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 2: Try this, I understand.

893
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 3: Take a whiff of this calculus. I mean, okay, so

894
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 3: now we're we're ill exploring questions that spoiler, people haven't answered.

895
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 3: But it does bring us back to the observer effect,

896
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 3: the double slid experiment, the thing no one can really explain, like,

897
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 3: when we observe a thing, to what degree are we

898
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 3: participating in that particular perspective of experience? When that person

899
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 3: to your earlier example, Matt, when that person walks by

900
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 3: and says hey, you hear them say hey, whether or

901
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 3: not you say something back to them, to what degree

902
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 3: are you, by observation, participating in and affecting their reality?

903
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: I don't know, that's maybe that's just too fluffy.

904
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 2: No, No, it goes back to maybe my my most

905
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: weird thoughts on this whole thing, And it goes back

906
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 2: to virtual worlds, and it goes back to imagining what

907
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 2: it would be like if this world, this reality we experience,

908
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 2: is some kind of information field of potentials, and in

909
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: everything that we know and think we know and experience.

910
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 3: Is a potential.

911
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: And I imagine it as a chair in an empty room.

912
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 2: This room you've been into before. You constructed that chair,

913
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 2: You made it out of wood, right, and it's just

914
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: sitting there. You know that it's there, but you leave

915
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 2: and you die and you're gone. But then a couple

916
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 2: hundred years later, another human being finds this room and

917
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: walks into it and looks at that chair. What I'm

918
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 2: imagining is that in between those two instances where this

919
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 2: chair was seen, you know, separated by hundreds of years,

920
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 2: is that chair actually sitting there in that room? Or

921
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: is the potential of that chair, the information that is

922
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 2: contained of what that chair is. Is it just sitting

923
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: there idly, almost as data that isn't being currently processed.

924
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 2: It's just kind of it is the information field that

925
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 2: is a chair that has constructed very specific materials in

926
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 2: a specific way, and all that information is there at

927
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 2: all times. But until somebody opens that door again and

928
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 2: looks at that chair, is it actually sitting in there?

929
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 2: And I really it feels to me the way a

930
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 2: virtual world is created, especially a very very large one,

931
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 2: where certain parts of a map of a world are

932
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: not loaded, but it is known the hardware is not

933
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 2: processing any of that stuff, but the software knows what

934
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 2: is supposed to go.

935
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 3: There, right, Yeah, Yeah, it.

936
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: Just hasn't injected it through the hardware system.

937
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 3: It hasn't loaded the map, so you speak, yeah, I

938
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 3: think that's a beautiful thought.

939
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, I feel like there's something to that here,

940
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 2: but you know, it then goes back to the observer

941
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: and what is the observer? Is it an animal? Is

942
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 2: it a plant? It is? What is consciousness? What is

943
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 2: the thing that observes so that the everything is and

944
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 2: exists and is being processed through hardware?

945
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, send us your pets for some very not weird experiments. Yeah,

946
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,919
Speaker 3: just in the mail, just in the just please don't,

947
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 3: please don't. We love your pets and we love the photos,

948
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 3: but we we think they enjoy their lives with you folks.

949
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 3: I think that is a fascinating thought, Matt, because it

950
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 3: reminds me again right now, probably in the old in

951
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 3: the old evenings, the best comparison would be losing oneself

952
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 3: in a story, right, But I think now the best comparison,

953
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 3: the most relevant and immediate, is what you're describing the

954
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 3: experience of gaming, especially in an immersive game. I sometimes

955
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 3: will log into my old Skyrim stuff where i've i've

956
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 3: and I'm not bragging here. I got one hundred percent

957
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 3: and completion because I didn't want to go outside. You know,

958
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 3: I'm not proud of it. I should have done better

959
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 3: things with my time. But now I just walk around

960
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 3: in this made up world. I don't even fighting body.

961
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 3: Sometimes I'm just like buying soup.

962
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 2: I'm genuinely impressed at one hundred percent.

963
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 3: It's not cool. Don't like, it's not something to be

964
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: proud of.

965
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: You should start making videos. One of my favorite ASMR guys,

966
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 2: I think his name is the ASMR Nerd, and he

967
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 2: does a bunch of videos, the whole series where he

968
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 2: walks around Skyrim, just the sounds of the footsteps and

969
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,919
Speaker 2: the ambience and the wildlife sometimes the music, and he's

970
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 2: just talking. Oh and here we have a lovely fjords.

971
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 2: It's amazing beautiful, I mean.

972
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 3: But also, you know, like you said with another video

973
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 3: gaming sample, like you beat elden Ring, right, like you

974
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 3: you you knocked the crap out of that, and it's

975
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 3: still party is still kind of in there sensing. But

976
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 3: that that's another example of this observation in an immersive

977
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 3: world because things will take time to load, you know,

978
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 3: And the question is the question is where do things

979
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 3: go when you're not looking at them? And I love

980
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 3: the point you're bringing up about theory of mind. When

981
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 3: you're seeing your your son grow cognitively and physically and

982
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 3: think through things. Right, you watch that guy learn language,

983
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 3: which is amazing. And this I think part of the

984
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,919
Speaker 3: theory of mind is the idea of object permanence. Right

985
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,919
Speaker 3: does the thing exist when I do not physically see, touch,

986
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 3: or hear the thing?

987
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 2: But what if it's object permanence for all things that

988
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: have eyes and ears and noses.

989
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 3: Right in tongues? Yeah, yeah, that's That's where I'm going

990
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 3: to man like think about. It's the old tree falling

991
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 3: in a forest concept, and I'm wondering. You know, it

992
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 3: reminds me of since we're talking about games, it reminds

993
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 3: me of extraordinary objects or artifacts of power in control.

994
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 3: What are they called? Ah something? You know what I mean?

995
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 3: Objects of power is real? Okay, objective power. I think

996
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 3: one of those spoiler folks. There, there's something I can't

997
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 3: remember what it was, Maybe it was a refrigerator or whatever,

998
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 3: but it's locked up and someone has to stare at

999
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 3: it all the time because if they don't, if someone

1000
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 3: is not looking at it, stuff goes horribly wrong. Yeah,

1001
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 3: that's so cool, I think. Now I'm sorry I've derailed this.

1002
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 2: I loaded that game back up again to show my

1003
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 2: girlfriend and she was genuinely interested. And she does not

1004
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 2: like video games, but it's because of all those artifacts.

1005
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 2: You get to find, all the papers that documents, all

1006
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 2: that stuff.

1007
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 3: God, that's so great. Can't wait. If you are interested

1008
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 3: in learning, if you like this show and video games remotely,

1009
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 3: you will love the show Control Matt, I can't thank

1010
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 3: you enough again for putting me onto that game. They

1011
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 3: have another the studio as one called Alan Wake. Alan

1012
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 3: Wake two recently came out and we're waiting for Control too.

1013
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 3: Are that which point they're gonna do another one? At

1014
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 3: which point I cannot wait to see what kind of

1015
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 3: ridiculous excuses you and Noel Barcelona Brown and I send

1016
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 3: to our colleagues right like, how are we going to

1017
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 3: explain that we're calling in sick for video game. I'm

1018
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 3: just gonna be honest. I'll be like, guys, I gotta.

1019
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: I've been banking vacation days since twenty nineteen in hopes

1020
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 2: that Control two would one day be released.

1021
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 3: It'll just be a run of classic episodes. But there's

1022
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 3: something else to Matt. This is what it leads me

1023
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 3: to think. And I'm very interested in your observations here, observations. Okay,

1024
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 3: what if we created a virtual space, a virtual world

1025
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 3: or reality, and we conducted the double slit experiment there?

1026
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 3: What if we you know, what if we had everybody

1027
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 3: listening at home, and you and me and Paul and

1028
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 3: Noel physically at a great distance from each other, logging in,

1029
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 3: and some portion of the group just looks at one slit,

1030
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 3: some portion looks at another. They're not in contact with

1031
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 3: each other.

1032
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 2: This is I love the idea, Ben, I love this idea,

1033
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 2: and let's do it.

1034
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,439
Speaker 3: First of all, I don't know if it'll I don't

1035
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 3: know if it's worth doing. I just think it's trippy.

1036
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 2: Well, the second thing is I think it would The

1037
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 2: outcome would depend exactly and precisely on the physics engine

1038
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: that functions in that virtual world.

1039
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 3: Because that's the observer, right, that's the ultimate observer.

1040
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 2: Well, because the physics engine has code that says, this

1041
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 2: is how light functions in this environment, and this is

1042
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 2: how light interacts with these materials in this environment. Right,

1043
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 2: So you would I think you'd be able to predict

1044
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 2: that every time, simply because we know the underlying.

1045
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 3: Code, we know the engine.

1046
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in our reality, we still don't know what

1047
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 2: that is. We don't know what it looks like, we

1048
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 2: don't know who wrote it, if anybody wrote it, if

1049
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 2: it even is code. Maybe it's just something else.

1050
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 3: And that's the question too. As civilization arrived at the

1051
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 3: point where just from scrabbling around at the corners of experience,

1052
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 3: we found, you know, a chink in the armor, right,

1053
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 3: a gap in the plates. And if that is true,

1054
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 3: if that is the case, what happens when we worry

1055
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 3: at that crevice? What happens when we pull the plate

1056
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 3: or the surface back? What do we see beneath?

1057
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 2: Mister Anderson?

1058
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 3: That's great? Oh, and then what if we set up

1059
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 3: the okay real world? Then what if we set up

1060
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 3: the double slit experiment and we let it run somehow

1061
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 3: for a thousand years? And we never intervene and we

1062
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 3: never check on it until a millennia has passed, and.

1063
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 2: Then we'll be like, oh, look it's an interference pattern. Well,

1064
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 2: like that's what that's why there there are people to

1065
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 2: this day as of April twenty twenty three. Uh there, well,

1066
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 2: I mean it's still right now, it's probably happening. There

1067
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 2: are people who are trying to modify the experiment even further.

1068
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 2: There's a group, uh they just published in Nature last

1069
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 2: year from Imperial College. They were trying to do the

1070
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 2: double slit experiment but with time dilation and like could

1071
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 2: like I don't understand it, y'all. I'm gonna give you

1072
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 2: this so you can look it up on your own.

1073
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: It's in the Quantum Insider. It's written by Matt Swain,

1074
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 2: April fourth, twenty twenty three. The title is Time is

1075
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 2: on My Sides with an s researchers show double slit

1076
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 2: experiment also applies to time and it has to do

1077
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 2: with putting some kind of material in front of the

1078
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 2: slits that basically slows down the light. I think I

1079
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 2: don't know if that's right or not. I've read the

1080
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 2: entire article and I still couldn't tell you exactly what

1081
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 2: it means, but it was iridium tin oxide that they

1082
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:39,960
Speaker 2: used to make time slits in quotation, I don't know,

1083
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means.

1084
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 3: Sorry, we have to tell you the research. No, this

1085
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,919
Speaker 3: is also I mean, this is another thing that maybe

1086
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 3: a future episode with your help, fellow conspiracy realist. Because

1087
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 3: time is part of reality, or at least the way

1088
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 3: your perception and perspective of time. Right, we all just

1089
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 3: sort of agree that it's Monday, you know what I mean.

1090
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 3: We all sort of agree that in one part of

1091
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:06,959
Speaker 3: the world it's three pm, and then in another part

1092
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 3: it's two pm at big because you know, yeah, at

1093
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 3: railroad tycoons or whatever, and farming. But when you when

1094
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 3: you drill down into the concept of time, things also

1095
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 3: get fuzzy because time is just like reality, part of

1096
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 3: a thing everyone has collectively agreed that they pretend to understand.

1097
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 3: And just don't make it complicated, you know what I mean.

1098
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 3: Someone asks you about your schedule, don't don't say, here's

1099
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 3: the history of why the calendar is weird and it's

1100
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 3: not perfect, you know, and we're actually a few seconds

1101
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 3: off all the time.

1102
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 2: I just got the first weapon in control too.

1103
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 3: Exactly right, I think you mean Pervis day, right, whatever,

1104
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 3: I don't know. In any case, Matt and Paul and I,

1105
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:06,640
Speaker 3: we think you can agree, the mystery only deepens. We

1106
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 3: are now at a point with scientific evidence where we

1107
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:17,639
Speaker 3: can say reality seems to be dependent on factors human

1108
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 3: civilization does not understand. The scariest thing that this teaches

1109
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 3: us is that it appears that when one observes reality,

1110
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 3: reality looks back at you. It might know that you're watching, yeah, and.

1111
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 2: It might change itself to either accommodate you or to

1112
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 2: trick you.

1113
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,600
Speaker 3: And to this date we have not interviewed an electron

1114
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 3: nor a photon for their perspectives on the confounded nature

1115
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 3: of reality. If they are particles, even if you know,

1116
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 3: even if they just are particles that wave at us

1117
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 3: sometimes right, if they see us on the streets the

1118
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 3: mean streets of reality. If you are a photon or

1119
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 3: an electron, or a person or a digital intelligence, and

1120
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 3: you have some thoughts here, again, like Matt and I

1121
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 3: said at the beginning, if you can explain the double

1122
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 3: slit experiment, like if you can solve light, you know,

1123
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 3: please write to us. We don't know if anybody's ever

1124
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:18,880
Speaker 3: asked you. If you have the answer to that, find

1125
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 3: us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. You could also give us

1126
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 3: a phone call.

1127
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could call one eight three three std WYTK

1128
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 2: right after you call Fermilab and explain to them whatever

1129
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 2: you figured out because or well, you know whatever, those

1130
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 2: other places are that are doing this all the time.

1131
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 2: But if you call our number, you can leave us

1132
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:40,280
Speaker 2: a three minute voicemail message, give yourself a cool nickname,

1133
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 2: and say whatever you'd like do. At some point say

1134
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 2: whether or not we can use your name and message

1135
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 2: on the air. If you got more to say, they

1136
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 2: could fit in that three minutes, Attachments, links, whatever you got.

1137
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 2: Why not send us a good old fashioned email.

1138
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every email. We get

1139
01:10:56,479 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 3: the well aware of folks, just like reality stares back.

1140
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 3: Sometimes the void answers you conspiracydiheartradio dot.

1141
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:25,600
Speaker 2: Com stuff they don't want you to know is a

1142
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:29,680
Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

1143
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1144
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 2: favorite shows.