WEBVTT - Black Shadows — Libby Caswell E7 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:05.600 This is an iHeart original. 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:12.840 This story can be hard to hear. There's detailed talk 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.840 of suicide and violence, but we think it's important not 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.280 to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libby Caswell. 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:22.800 Please take care while listening. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.120 I cared about Elizabeth more than any human being on 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:30.960 this plane. 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:33.080 She was going to be my wife, you know what 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:34.680 I mean, for the rest of our lives. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:35.760 We were supposed to be together. 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.479 You're hearing the voice of Devon Martin, a voice you 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.640 might have noticed has been largely absent from the series 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:46.280 so far. It's not for lack of trying. For the 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.120 past year and a half, I've made numerous attempts to 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.440 speak with Devon, sending him emails and reaching out over 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.720 social media, letting him know I was making a show 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.680 about Libby and that I wanted his side of the story. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.680 I know he's received my messages, but I've never heard 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.000 anything back. His mom Mindy said he didn't want to 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.279 talk to me. What I do have of Devin's voice 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.600 is the nine one one call and the two interviews 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.640 he's done with the Independence Police Department, one in twenty seventeen, 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.039 right after Libby's death, and then one two years later, 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.120 and it's in that second interview where he gets more personal. 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:26.360 I'm hearing that's turning on the inside. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:28.080 I've I've not had day experience all of this. 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.120 I get that. I can tell that you're heard. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:32.920 I get that, okay, And. 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.479 I'm still dealing with this year and it's been almost 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:36.039 two years. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:38.200 It's almost been two years. 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.200 I lost my son's man and I almost lost myself. 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:43.640 Almost this to be old boy. 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:45.080 I want my life back. 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.400 Phobe Caswell was loved by so many people. 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:49.560 No one wanted to believe that she would ever do 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.360 anything like that to herself because no one could believe that. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.480 I look at us. We was the fucking We was 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:56.680 the king and queen and fucking in high school. 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:58.880 That's what we did. I was a job, She was 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:00.960 a and a cheerleader. 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:02.400 And that's everyone out now. 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:03.160 So I'm looking at him. 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:04.200 It was the perfect couple. 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:06.080 Nobody wants to believe that shit happened. 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:08.639 I should have fucked up, but it is what it is. 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:09.680 That is what happened. 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.520 This shit is fucking ruining my life and people need 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.680 to leave me alone. And that's how I feel about 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:17.360 it because I'm the one who lost someone. 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:22.480 Generally to me, there's so much I'd like to talk 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.880 to Devin about, not just what happened the night Libby died. 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.120 Devan has always maintained his innocence. I don't think he'd 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.440 give me a different account. And not just his perspective 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.680 on his and Libby's relationship, the allegations of domestic violence, 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.000 the drug use. But I'd also like to hear from 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:44.120 Devin about his life and how he grew up, because, 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.800 as I've come to understand, it wasn't easy. 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.160 I watched my mother did use my entire childhood. I've 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.880 been around my whole life. I was picking my mom 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:55.360 about the floor, needle was hanging. 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:56.640 Out her arm when I was five years old. 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:58.480 I know what the ship brings. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:02:59.160 You know what I mean. 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.280 Even if Devon won't talk to me, I still want 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.520 to try to paint a fair portrait because just as 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.359 Libby's story didn't happen in a vacuum, neither did Devon's. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.359 In his absence, I've spoken to people close to him, 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.799 including his mom, his stepmom, and his sister. These are 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:23.120 women who love Devon, who support Devon, who admit he's 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:27.400 a complicated character, but who also wholeheartedly believe that he 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.600 is not responsible for Libby's death. 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:34.000 My son did not murder Libby. There's no way he 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.840 could live with himself and just live live if he 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.520 had done something like that. I know he couldn't. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.680 I know they did some gun things together, and you know, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.320 made some bad choices together. But in my heart a heart, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.640 I don't believe that that boy did that. 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.240 I feel it in my heart. And if I'm long, 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.040 then I'm wrong. But then I guess I wouldn't know 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:56.560 my brother. 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:01.520 You know, it's a fuzzo. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:09.080 So what she. 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:18.960 From iHeart Podcasts. I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:27.400 happened to Libby Caswell Ocus. 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.440 She didn't ever tell me the extent of all the 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.760 things that happened, you know, I had to find out 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:36.560 after her death. 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.120 So was she on her back and he was like 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.679 straddling her? Yes, okay? And he had his hands around 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:44.200 her throat? 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.400 Yes, they were, you know, young puppy love. It was 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.160 always oh, babe, babe bat Man. 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.120 A stupid nickname is the Big Collie. 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:56.600 He really went off the rails with nuts. Like some 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.480 people go off the rails, some people don't. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:34.520 Chapter seven Black shadows are never good. For most of 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.440 the time I've been reporting on Libby, Devon has been 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.760 in prison in Kansas, serving time on a drug charge. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.960 He was recently released and paroled back to Missouri. In 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.800 and out of jail, This is a pattern for Devon 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.960 that stretches back years. It's hard to get a complete 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.960 picture as his offenses cover multiple states and counties, but 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.880 as far as I can tell, Devon has had dozens 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.360 and dozens of encounters with police since the age of seventeen, 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.640 many of them related to drugs and theft. The summer 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.839 before Libby died, he had gotten in enough trouble that 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.479 he was included on the ipd's monthly Most Active Core 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.479 Offenders list. His mugshot was one of ten emailed to 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:22.800 the entire department alerting them of his recent arrests for burglary, assault, 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.679 and disturbance. It noted that he was quote physically violent. 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.120 According to IPD, the people added to this list were 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.159 the ones with the most frequent and recent police contact. 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:38.640 They were then targeted by IPD for quote proactive enforcement 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:44.200 and by county prosecutors for potential legal action. So how 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.160 did Devon end up on this list? At age twenty one. 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.440 More importantly, I wanted to find out how did this 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:52.320 pattern begin. 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:58.640 At Devon's request, A didn't want adopting that I don't 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.720 care if he gets mad at me for the rest 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.680 of his life. I feel like I need. 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.159 To talk to It took me more than a year 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.719 of trying before Devn's mom, Mindy, finally agreed to talk 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:10.960 to me to help me fill in the blanks in 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.680 Devon's backstory. Once I got her on the phone, she 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.680 was surprisingly open and eager to share about her own 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.880 life and about Devon's childhood. 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.280 His father and I both had such as abuse problem. 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.280 His father and I stayed together until he was I 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:33.520 want to say, four or five, and then we finally split. 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.760 Mindy says after they broke up, Devn initially stayed with 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.920 her and his half sister, Roxanne, who was seven years 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.760 older than Devin, and with Mindy working, it was often 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:46.920 Roxanne who had to care for her little brother. 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.720 She was making the money whatever, saying care of us, 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.440 that I was the one that always did a laundry, 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.960 made sure Devin was like give him bath, you know, 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.360 like all the kind of stuff. If anybody knows Devin 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.280 it's me because I'm the one that raised him. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.720 Roxanne told me it took her a while to recognize 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.080 science of her mom's drug abuse. As I got. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:18.320 Older, I realized she still was getting high because later 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:23.480 on in my life I got high. And I know 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.920 what it is now, like seeing her in the bedroom 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.000 smoking cigarettes and then coloring fuzzy posters, falling asleep, like 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:35.400 burning her blankets, you know, like because he's falling out, you. 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.520 Know, mindy. Devin's mom told me that she struggled with 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:44.199 methamphetomine throughout her life. One relapse happened when Devon was 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:44.880 about eight. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.000 I had been claiming for seven years, seven and a 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:54.280 half years, and I fell off the wagon, lost my job, 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.760 and was losing my apartment, and so he went with 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.480 his father, who I believed was plain. 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.680 I asked her specifically how witnessing drug use at home 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.120 might have impacted Devon. 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.920 Well, I'm sure it affected him tremendously. He's not ever 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.960 said anything to me, so that I'm not saying it 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.760 didn't happen by no means. I'm sure it probably did, 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:20.520 But I don't know what it is. 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.920 What it's all, you know, Devin seems to have spent 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.760 most of his elementary school years with his mom, and 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.280 his middle school years with his dad and his stepmom, 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.360 who have since split up. Devn's dad, Charlie, hasn't wanted 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.720 to speak with me about his son. However, I did 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.040 manage to get a hold of Devin's stepmom, Jamie. Do 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:46.600 you know you know, had there been any physical violence 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.839 or emotional abuse in either of the households that he 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:50.440 grew up in. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:55.200 No, it never got physical, but I think that marble 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.199 is probably what he dealt with. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.840 Jamie is adamant that the periods Devin lived with his 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.360 dad and her, they were sober and stable, but when 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.480 she thinks about the other years when she wasn't around, 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:08.679 it's trickier. 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.360 Would you say that Devin experienced a lot of trauma 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.120 as a child, I. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.040 Would say possibly. I don't know if trauma is the 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.160 right word, but I would say he experienced, like maybe 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:24.560 some abandonment issues. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:30.080 As Devin entered his teens, he began clashing with his father, and, 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.160 according to his mom, Mindy, his dad pulled away. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.280 When he was fourteen. Devin called me from school one 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.320 day and said, Mom, come to get me. And I 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:41.880 said what said, your dad's never going to let me 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.959 come and get you what he's talking about. Charlie signed 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.360 a piece of paper saying he was siying his rights 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.600 over to me. We didn't go to court with it 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.160 or anything. But he did that in front of Devon, 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:58.360 and that affected Devon tremendously. I cried for Devin when 0:10:58.360 --> 0:10:59.200 his father did that. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.320 I also found out that for some stretch of his 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.600 teen years, Devin lived in a boy's home. He kept 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:13.560 running away. Trauma, abuse, abandonment. Those are difficult terms to 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:17.120 say out loud, especially when it's about someone you care about, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.760 when it feels personal. I understood why Jamie was hesitant 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:26.280 to label Devin's experience, but when I prodded her on specifics, 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.760 like the drug abuse he has described seeing as a kid, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:31.319 her tone changed. 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.520 I do believe that he Uh, I guess that would 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:35.000 be trauma. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:35.880 Yeah, I do. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.200 I know that he experienced seeing some things that he 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:41.920 probably shouldn't have seen, or I know that he shouldn't 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.000 have seen and probably heard some heard things that he 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.440 should not have heard. Yes, I will agree to that. 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.760 In my years reporting on men who are violent towards 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:58.560 their partners, some similarities have emerged. It's cliche to say 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.840 hurt people hurt people, but it's often true, and it's 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:07.240 especially true of kids who grow up neglected or witness 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:12.360 or experience emotional or physical abuse as they grow older. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.520 Not only are these kids more likely to have problems 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.840 with substance abuse, they are also more likely to either 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.360 perpetrate or be a victim of violence in their own 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:23.680 intimate relationships. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:28.240 Okay, so the brain is extraordinarily complex and we know 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.040 a lot about it, but there's way, way, way more 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:31.960 that we don't know. 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.720 Diane Vins is a family therapist who specializes in how 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.320 trauma can affect neurodevelopment, or the way the young brain 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.480 builds pathways for things like learning, focus, and social skills. 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.560 She isn't Devin's therapist, doesn't know his case, but I 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.960 asked her to talk broadly about how childhood trauma can 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:53.960 translate into behavioral patterns. 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.160 When your brain perceives that you are under threat, it 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.720 mounts a stress response, so a lot of things happen. 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.640 You are more likely, because of the way your brain 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.480 is wired to help you either fight, flight, freeze, faint, 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:13.200 more likely to engage in behaviors that are unhealthy, like 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:19.160 more drinking, more smoking, illicit drugs, you know, casual, dangerous sex, 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:20.240 all kinds of things. 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.240 Vine says that some children learn to cope with trauma 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.840 in unhealthy ways that carry over into adulthood. 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.240 People think about abuse, and then they think about neglect, 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.640 and very often neglect is even worse. You learn not 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.400 to trust people when you grow up in that kind 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.559 of house where there are no adults who are emotionally 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.800 present for you. In order to get any needs met, 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.400 you're going to have to manipulate people and situations just 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.400 to get basic needs met, because you can't just simply ask, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:58.440 so you basically train to be manipulative just to survive. 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.160 That's a pretty eas connection to make. People who have 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:06.400 not been supported by people don't trust people. They take 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.480 what they need, They use people the way they need to, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.400 and they discard the rest. They don't let people get 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.160 close to them, because people get close hurt. 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.600 From what I've gathered, it doesn't seem like Devon had 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.520 many supports in place to handle the challenges he was 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.800 facing as a young boy. It's not surprising, perhaps that 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.920 as Devin went from kid to teen, he turned to 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.360 a thing that was readily available, something he'd seen in 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.760 his own home, something he'd been trying his whole life 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:36.480 to avoid. 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.680 I yet telling me, yeah, no, I'm not going to 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.640 do that, Christine, I don't want. I see what my 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.120 dad's falling through, and I see what my mom does. 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.000 I talked to Christine, a woman an independence whose daughter 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.920 dated Devon in eighth and ninth grade before he dated Libby. 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.800 For the most part, he was a really polite kid, 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.240 always saying yes sir, yes ma'am, please say you. 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.560 He was a hard worker anytime we were. 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.280 Good, and any kind of work with the how he 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:07.040 helped us with that. 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.720 Christine had memories of going to his wrestling matches in 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:14.360 football games, where Devin showed a lot of talent. She 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.040 and Devin spoke often too, and despite his home life, 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.960 he seemed okay, but she soon started to worry for him. 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:27.040 In ninth grade, I could tell Devon was starting to separate. 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.360 I could see it. I knew it was coming, and 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.520 I had talked to him and talked to him and 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.320 kept trying to encouraging. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:36.119 I'm like, don't. 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:40.440 Devin, it's all bad, you know, And He's like, I know, 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:40.840 I know. 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.920 My mom talks about the black shadows that haunt her 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.200 when she does her drugs, and I'm like, see, you 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:47.920 don't want. 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:48.160 To do that. 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:49.800 I said, that's not good. 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:51.560 Black shadows are never good. 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.120 At some point, Devin began to use meth, the drug 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.280 that it plagued the city of Independence, the drug that 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:06.200 had wreaked havoc on his childhood homes. And after that 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:10.960 things changed. He dropped out of school. No more wrestling, 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:17.360 no more football, no more polite, helpful kid. Meth caught 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.800 up with his sister, Roxanne too. She told me that 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.640 it was her goal as a child to avoid following 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:28.000 the same path as her mom, Mindy, but ultimately meth 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:29.720 was just there. 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.200 I always told myself I was never going to do 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.240 what she did, you know, But then like I got 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.400 so tired of it, and I just I wanted to 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.480 try it because I wanted to know why she wouldn't 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:50.040 stop to be there for us kids, you know. 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.040 Diane Vines told me that it's common for people who've 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:00.880 experienced high levels of childhood trauma to struggle with drugs alcohol. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.080 I think they're self medicating, to be honest. You know, 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.440 when your body's feeling that tense and that and you're 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.919 that upset and you can't get those thoughts to stop. 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:16.520 Sometimes for often if you take us up sence, it'll 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.840 stop for a while. So if you can get that 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.920 dopamine hit that you can't get from people and that 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:27.040 you need so that you relieve that physiological distress, that's 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.359 very often what they're doing. 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.119 Roxanne admitted that this was one reason why she and 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.720 Devin used drugs often together. 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:37.120 There would be. 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.320 Times to where it's like, you know, like we'd be 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.560 sitting there crying with each other and then it's like 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:50.159 we hate our lives and it's as ridiculous. So it 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.560 sounds like we both sit there and cry together, and 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.320 then like right after we say all that stuff there, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.800 we go light up a bowl, you know, because it's 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:01.960 it's like the only thing that would just make us 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.240 stop crying or feeling anything, you know. I didn't want 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.480 my life to turn out how it was and how 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.120 it is, and he didn't either. 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:24.239 I was at Charlie's apartment and I heard somebody out 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:25.879 in the living them night came up out of this 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.199 because I heard Devin was like, I just tell him 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:28.600 be dead. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:29.640 I just tell Lidy. 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:38.640 Jamie Devins stepmom, remember seeing Devon on that day, December eleventh, 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.960 twenty seventeen. She and Charlie had split up by then, 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.959 but she said she was over at his apartment. In 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.679 her recollection, it was evening, but she admits she'd been 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.200 using drugs at the time, so her memory is a 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.399 little hazy still. She can't forget how Devin was acting. 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.639 But look on his face. He was terrified. I remember 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.359 being terrified, and he was shaken, and he said he 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.520 would just found her. And he's in panic mode, straight 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.360 panic grady that he founder and called Lie on one 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:08.040 and he left. 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.560 This, of course, is also the same story that Devin 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.879 told police the night of Libby's death. Jamie couldn't remember 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.760 any other details from that night, including Devin's phone call 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.040 from jail, where he seemingly asked her and Charlie to 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.760 tell police had been at their house. But Jamie told 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:30.600 me she is convinced that Devin's story is true, and 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.520 points to the fact that in twenty nineteen, IPD interviewed 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.120 him again and offered up a polygraph. 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.080 There is a way that you can show me that 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.359 you did didn't do this five to take throughs and 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:44.880 how you're asking me is right. 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:46.560 Now, would you take one? Absolutely? 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:47.440 Would you pass it? 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:48.720 No question? 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:54.679 Absolutely? I mean if you passed, that would settle this. 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.320 Well, let's go, what have you failing? 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.320 There's no, that's not an option. 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.520 Devin eventually took the polygraph, and he did pass, but 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.440 the idea that the results could quote settle the issue 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:13.639 of whether Devon was involved in Libby's death wasn't actually true. 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:18.120 Polygraphs have long been discredited because they're just not accurate, 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:23.240 and their results are no longer admissible in court. These days, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.560 police use the polygraph mostly as an investigative tactic, a 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.520 way to put pressure on a suspect to confess. Still, 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.560 voluntarily taking and passing the polygraph was important to Devon 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.240 and his family. They saw it as proof of his innocence, 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.479 something that showed just how far he had gone to 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:44.280 clear his name. 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:50.360 He had went through my detager tests and stuff, and 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:55.000 he passed them, and all of this still was out there. 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.719 Devin's sister, Roxanne, was upset about continued accusations against her 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.600 brother and about something Cindy did. Shortly after Libby's death. 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.879 She'd put up posters around Independence asking for information. The 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.560 posters included photos of Devon and Libby and the text 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.399 quote last scene with the mail above. 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.440 We were walking at that little hotdog store. I seen 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:24.680 my brother's face on a fire on their window, and 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:29.720 Cindy was like posting all of these things out there 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.080 saying that he was a murderer and if you see him, 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.120 report blah blah blah blah blah. How can you call 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.840 somebody a murderer when they're not even convicted or charged 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:42.200 or anything, you know. 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:48.040 I understand her drive that. I feel like she is 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.000 looking at the wrong person. 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:55.159 Devin's mom Mindy, despite everything, actually has a lot of 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:56.280 empathy for Cindy. 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.639 I tried to talk to Cindy after passed. I wanted 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:05.200 to tell her and I still do that I am 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:11.320 so sorry for what happened. I couldn't imagine living a child. 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:13.199 I couldn't imagine it. 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.800 Cindy's not the only one hurting. Devon's family says that 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:22.440 losing Libby has been immensely painful for Devon, and especially 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.080 in the immediate aftermath of Libby's death, Mindy worried for 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:27.080 her son's sanity. 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:31.960 I'm sorry this is hard for me because I loved Libby. 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.800 She was a part of our family for a long time. 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:39.120 I remember thinking, I hate that that's the last vision he. 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:40.720 Will have of her forever. 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:46.879 You know, after Libby, he was lost for a long time. 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.280 When Libby died, Devon was just lost. 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.760 Devin himself said as much in his second interview with 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:56.440 IPD in twenty nineteen. 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.280 Myself that day, truth, I has never been than that 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:03.920 I talk about Let's suicide was on my mind any. 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.280 After that stuff happened, because I didn't want. 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.520 To be alive, but I knew our friend needed somebody 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:09.640 and that's the only. 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:10.480 Reason that I'm still here. 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.800