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Speaker 1: This is an iHeart original.

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Speaker 2: This story can be hard to hear. There's detailed talk

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Speaker 2: of suicide and violence, but we think it's important not

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Speaker 2: to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libby Caswell.

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Speaker 2: Please take care while listening.

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Speaker 3: I cared about Elizabeth more than any human being on

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Speaker 3: this plane.

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Speaker 4: She was going to be my wife, you know what

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Speaker 4: I mean, for the rest of our lives.

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Speaker 5: We were supposed to be together.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing the voice of Devon Martin, a voice you

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Speaker 2: might have noticed has been largely absent from the series

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Speaker 2: so far. It's not for lack of trying. For the

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Speaker 2: past year and a half, I've made numerous attempts to

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Speaker 2: speak with Devon, sending him emails and reaching out over

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Speaker 2: social media, letting him know I was making a show

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Speaker 2: about Libby and that I wanted his side of the story.

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Speaker 2: I know he's received my messages, but I've never heard

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Speaker 2: anything back. His mom Mindy said he didn't want to

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Speaker 2: talk to me. What I do have of Devin's voice

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Speaker 2: is the nine one one call and the two interviews

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Speaker 2: he's done with the Independence Police Department, one in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: right after Libby's death, and then one two years later,

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Speaker 2: and it's in that second interview where he gets more personal.

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Speaker 3: I'm hearing that's turning on the inside.

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Speaker 6: I've I've not had day experience all of this.

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Speaker 5: I get that. I can tell that you're heard.

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Speaker 4: I get that, okay, And.

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Speaker 5: I'm still dealing with this year and it's been almost

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Speaker 5: two years.

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Speaker 1: It's almost been two years.

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Speaker 4: I lost my son's man and I almost lost myself.

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Speaker 7: Almost this to be old boy.

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Speaker 2: I want my life back.

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Speaker 5: Phobe Caswell was loved by so many people.

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Speaker 4: No one wanted to believe that she would ever do

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Speaker 4: anything like that to herself because no one could believe that.

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Speaker 6: I look at us. We was the fucking We was

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Speaker 6: the king and queen and fucking in high school.

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Speaker 8: That's what we did. I was a job, She was

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Speaker 8: a and a cheerleader.

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Speaker 4: And that's everyone out now.

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Speaker 5: So I'm looking at him.

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Speaker 1: It was the perfect couple.

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Speaker 3: Nobody wants to believe that shit happened.

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Speaker 5: I should have fucked up, but it is what it is.

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Speaker 3: That is what happened.

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Speaker 6: This shit is fucking ruining my life and people need

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Speaker 6: to leave me alone. And that's how I feel about

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Speaker 6: it because I'm the one who lost someone.

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Speaker 2: Generally to me, there's so much I'd like to talk

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Speaker 2: to Devin about, not just what happened the night Libby died.

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Speaker 2: Devan has always maintained his innocence. I don't think he'd

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Speaker 2: give me a different account. And not just his perspective

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Speaker 2: on his and Libby's relationship, the allegations of domestic violence,

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Speaker 2: the drug use. But I'd also like to hear from

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Speaker 2: Devin about his life and how he grew up, because,

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Speaker 2: as I've come to understand, it wasn't easy.

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Speaker 5: I watched my mother did use my entire childhood. I've

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Speaker 5: been around my whole life. I was picking my mom

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Speaker 5: about the floor, needle was hanging.

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Speaker 4: Out her arm when I was five years old.

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Speaker 7: I know what the ship brings.

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Speaker 5: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Even if Devon won't talk to me, I still want

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Speaker 2: to try to paint a fair portrait because just as

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Speaker 2: Libby's story didn't happen in a vacuum, neither did Devon's.

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Speaker 2: In his absence, I've spoken to people close to him,

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Speaker 2: including his mom, his stepmom, and his sister. These are

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Speaker 2: women who love Devon, who support Devon, who admit he's

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Speaker 2: a complicated character, but who also wholeheartedly believe that he

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Speaker 2: is not responsible for Libby's death.

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Speaker 9: My son did not murder Libby. There's no way he

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Speaker 9: could live with himself and just live live if he

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Speaker 9: had done something like that. I know he couldn't.

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Speaker 7: I know they did some gun things together, and you know,

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Speaker 7: made some bad choices together. But in my heart a heart,

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Speaker 7: I don't believe that that boy did that.

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Speaker 3: I feel it in my heart. And if I'm long,

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Speaker 3: then I'm wrong. But then I guess I wouldn't know

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Speaker 3: my brother.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a fuzzo.

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Speaker 9: So what she.

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Speaker 2: From iHeart Podcasts. I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what

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Speaker 2: happened to Libby Caswell Ocus.

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Speaker 1: She didn't ever tell me the extent of all the

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Speaker 1: things that happened, you know, I had to find out

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Speaker 1: after her death.

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Speaker 4: So was she on her back and he was like

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Speaker 4: straddling her? Yes, okay? And he had his hands around

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Speaker 4: her throat?

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Speaker 1: Yes, they were, you know, young puppy love. It was

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Speaker 1: always oh, babe, babe bat Man.

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Speaker 4: A stupid nickname is the Big Collie.

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Speaker 7: He really went off the rails with nuts. Like some

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Speaker 7: people go off the rails, some people don't.

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Speaker 2: Chapter seven Black shadows are never good. For most of

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Speaker 2: the time I've been reporting on Libby, Devon has been

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Speaker 2: in prison in Kansas, serving time on a drug charge.

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Speaker 2: He was recently released and paroled back to Missouri. In

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Speaker 2: and out of jail, This is a pattern for Devon

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Speaker 2: that stretches back years. It's hard to get a complete

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Speaker 2: picture as his offenses cover multiple states and counties, but

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Speaker 2: as far as I can tell, Devon has had dozens

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Speaker 2: and dozens of encounters with police since the age of seventeen,

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Speaker 2: many of them related to drugs and theft. The summer

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Speaker 2: before Libby died, he had gotten in enough trouble that

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Speaker 2: he was included on the ipd's monthly Most Active Core

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Speaker 2: Offenders list. His mugshot was one of ten emailed to

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Speaker 2: the entire department alerting them of his recent arrests for burglary, assault,

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Speaker 2: and disturbance. It noted that he was quote physically violent.

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Speaker 2: According to IPD, the people added to this list were

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Speaker 2: the ones with the most frequent and recent police contact.

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Speaker 2: They were then targeted by IPD for quote proactive enforcement

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Speaker 2: and by county prosecutors for potential legal action. So how

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Speaker 2: did Devon end up on this list? At age twenty one.

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Speaker 2: More importantly, I wanted to find out how did this

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Speaker 2: pattern begin.

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Speaker 9: At Devon's request, A didn't want adopting that I don't

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Speaker 9: care if he gets mad at me for the rest

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Speaker 9: of his life. I feel like I need.

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Speaker 2: To talk to It took me more than a year

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Speaker 2: of trying before Devn's mom, Mindy, finally agreed to talk

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Speaker 2: to me to help me fill in the blanks in

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Speaker 2: Devon's backstory. Once I got her on the phone, she

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Speaker 2: was surprisingly open and eager to share about her own

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Speaker 2: life and about Devon's childhood.

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Speaker 9: His father and I both had such as abuse problem.

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Speaker 9: His father and I stayed together until he was I

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Speaker 9: want to say, four or five, and then we finally split.

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Speaker 2: Mindy says after they broke up, Devn initially stayed with

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Speaker 2: her and his half sister, Roxanne, who was seven years

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Speaker 2: older than Devin, and with Mindy working, it was often

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Speaker 2: Roxanne who had to care for her little brother.

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Speaker 3: She was making the money whatever, saying care of us,

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Speaker 3: that I was the one that always did a laundry,

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Speaker 3: made sure Devin was like give him bath, you know,

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Speaker 3: like all the kind of stuff. If anybody knows Devin

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Speaker 3: it's me because I'm the one that raised him.

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Speaker 2: Roxanne told me it took her a while to recognize

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Speaker 2: science of her mom's drug abuse. As I got.

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Speaker 3: Older, I realized she still was getting high because later

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Speaker 3: on in my life I got high. And I know

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Speaker 3: what it is now, like seeing her in the bedroom

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Speaker 3: smoking cigarettes and then coloring fuzzy posters, falling asleep, like

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Speaker 3: burning her blankets, you know, like because he's falling out, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, mindy. Devin's mom told me that she struggled with

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Speaker 2: methamphetomine throughout her life. One relapse happened when Devon was

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Speaker 2: about eight.

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Speaker 9: I had been claiming for seven years, seven and a

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Speaker 9: half years, and I fell off the wagon, lost my job,

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Speaker 9: and was losing my apartment, and so he went with

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Speaker 9: his father, who I believed was plain.

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Speaker 2: I asked her specifically how witnessing drug use at home

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Speaker 2: might have impacted Devon.

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Speaker 9: Well, I'm sure it affected him tremendously. He's not ever

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Speaker 9: said anything to me, so that I'm not saying it

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Speaker 9: didn't happen by no means. I'm sure it probably did,

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Speaker 9: But I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: What it's all, you know, Devin seems to have spent

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Speaker 2: most of his elementary school years with his mom, and

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Speaker 2: his middle school years with his dad and his stepmom,

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Speaker 2: who have since split up. Devn's dad, Charlie, hasn't wanted

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Speaker 2: to speak with me about his son. However, I did

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Speaker 2: manage to get a hold of Devin's stepmom, Jamie. Do

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Speaker 2: you know you know, had there been any physical violence

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Speaker 2: or emotional abuse in either of the households that he

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Speaker 2: grew up in.

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Speaker 7: No, it never got physical, but I think that marble

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Speaker 7: is probably what he dealt with.

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Speaker 2: Jamie is adamant that the periods Devin lived with his

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Speaker 2: dad and her, they were sober and stable, but when

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Speaker 2: she thinks about the other years when she wasn't around,

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Speaker 2: it's trickier.

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Speaker 4: Would you say that Devin experienced a lot of trauma

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Speaker 4: as a child, I.

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Speaker 7: Would say possibly. I don't know if trauma is the

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Speaker 7: right word, but I would say he experienced, like maybe

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Speaker 7: some abandonment issues.

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Speaker 2: As Devin entered his teens, he began clashing with his father, and,

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Speaker 2: according to his mom, Mindy, his dad pulled away.

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Speaker 9: When he was fourteen. Devin called me from school one

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Speaker 9: day and said, Mom, come to get me. And I

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Speaker 9: said what said, your dad's never going to let me

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Speaker 9: come and get you what he's talking about. Charlie signed

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Speaker 9: a piece of paper saying he was siying his rights

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Speaker 9: over to me. We didn't go to court with it

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Speaker 9: or anything. But he did that in front of Devon,

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Speaker 9: and that affected Devon tremendously. I cried for Devin when

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Speaker 9: his father did that.

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Speaker 2: I also found out that for some stretch of his

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Speaker 2: teen years, Devin lived in a boy's home. He kept

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Speaker 2: running away. Trauma, abuse, abandonment. Those are difficult terms to

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Speaker 2: say out loud, especially when it's about someone you care about,

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Speaker 2: when it feels personal. I understood why Jamie was hesitant

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Speaker 2: to label Devin's experience, but when I prodded her on specifics,

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Speaker 2: like the drug abuse he has described seeing as a kid,

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Speaker 2: her tone changed.

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Speaker 7: I do believe that he Uh, I guess that would

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Speaker 7: be trauma.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I do.

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Speaker 7: I know that he experienced seeing some things that he

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Speaker 7: probably shouldn't have seen, or I know that he shouldn't

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Speaker 7: have seen and probably heard some heard things that he

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Speaker 7: should not have heard. Yes, I will agree to that.

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Speaker 2: In my years reporting on men who are violent towards

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Speaker 2: their partners, some similarities have emerged. It's cliche to say

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Speaker 2: hurt people hurt people, but it's often true, and it's

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Speaker 2: especially true of kids who grow up neglected or witness

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Speaker 2: or experience emotional or physical abuse as they grow older.

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Speaker 2: Not only are these kids more likely to have problems

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Speaker 2: with substance abuse, they are also more likely to either

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Speaker 2: perpetrate or be a victim of violence in their own

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Speaker 2: intimate relationships.

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Speaker 10: Okay, so the brain is extraordinarily complex and we know

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Speaker 10: a lot about it, but there's way, way, way more

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Speaker 10: that we don't know.

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Speaker 2: Diane Vins is a family therapist who specializes in how

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Speaker 2: trauma can affect neurodevelopment, or the way the young brain

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Speaker 2: builds pathways for things like learning, focus, and social skills.

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Speaker 2: She isn't Devin's therapist, doesn't know his case, but I

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Speaker 2: asked her to talk broadly about how childhood trauma can

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Speaker 2: translate into behavioral patterns.

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Speaker 10: When your brain perceives that you are under threat, it

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Speaker 10: mounts a stress response, so a lot of things happen.

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Speaker 10: You are more likely, because of the way your brain

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Speaker 10: is wired to help you either fight, flight, freeze, faint,

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Speaker 10: more likely to engage in behaviors that are unhealthy, like

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Speaker 10: more drinking, more smoking, illicit drugs, you know, casual, dangerous sex,

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Speaker 10: all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Vine says that some children learn to cope with trauma

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Speaker 2: in unhealthy ways that carry over into adulthood.

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Speaker 10: People think about abuse, and then they think about neglect,

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Speaker 10: and very often neglect is even worse. You learn not

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Speaker 10: to trust people when you grow up in that kind

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Speaker 10: of house where there are no adults who are emotionally

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Speaker 10: present for you. In order to get any needs met,

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Speaker 10: you're going to have to manipulate people and situations just

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Speaker 10: to get basic needs met, because you can't just simply ask,

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Speaker 10: so you basically train to be manipulative just to survive.

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Speaker 10: That's a pretty eas connection to make. People who have

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Speaker 10: not been supported by people don't trust people. They take

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Speaker 10: what they need, They use people the way they need to,

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Speaker 10: and they discard the rest. They don't let people get

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Speaker 10: close to them, because people get close hurt.

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Speaker 2: From what I've gathered, it doesn't seem like Devon had

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Speaker 2: many supports in place to handle the challenges he was

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Speaker 2: facing as a young boy. It's not surprising, perhaps that

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Speaker 2: as Devin went from kid to teen, he turned to

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Speaker 2: a thing that was readily available, something he'd seen in

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Speaker 2: his own home, something he'd been trying his whole life

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Speaker 2: to avoid.

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Speaker 3: I yet telling me, yeah, no, I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: do that, Christine, I don't want. I see what my

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Speaker 3: dad's falling through, and I see what my mom does.

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Speaker 2: I talked to Christine, a woman an independence whose daughter

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Speaker 2: dated Devon in eighth and ninth grade before he dated Libby.

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Speaker 9: For the most part, he was a really polite kid,

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Speaker 9: always saying yes sir, yes ma'am, please say you.

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Speaker 1: He was a hard worker anytime we were.

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Speaker 8: Good, and any kind of work with the how he

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Speaker 8: helped us with that.

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Speaker 2: Christine had memories of going to his wrestling matches in

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Speaker 2: football games, where Devin showed a lot of talent. She

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Speaker 2: and Devin spoke often too, and despite his home life,

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Speaker 2: he seemed okay, but she soon started to worry for him.

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Speaker 7: In ninth grade, I could tell Devon was starting to separate.

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Speaker 9: I could see it. I knew it was coming, and

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Speaker 9: I had talked to him and talked to him and

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Speaker 9: kept trying to encouraging.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, don't.

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Speaker 7: Devin, it's all bad, you know, And He's like, I know,

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Speaker 7: I know.

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Speaker 8: My mom talks about the black shadows that haunt her

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Speaker 8: when she does her drugs, and I'm like, see, you

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Speaker 8: don't want.

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Speaker 2: To do that.

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Speaker 5: I said, that's not good.

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Speaker 4: Black shadows are never good.

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Speaker 2: At some point, Devin began to use meth, the drug

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Speaker 2: that it plagued the city of Independence, the drug that

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Speaker 2: had wreaked havoc on his childhood homes. And after that

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Speaker 2: things changed. He dropped out of school. No more wrestling,

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Speaker 2: no more football, no more polite, helpful kid. Meth caught

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Speaker 2: up with his sister, Roxanne too. She told me that

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Speaker 2: it was her goal as a child to avoid following

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Speaker 2: the same path as her mom, Mindy, but ultimately meth

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Speaker 2: was just there.

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Speaker 3: I always told myself I was never going to do

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Speaker 3: what she did, you know, But then like I got

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Speaker 3: so tired of it, and I just I wanted to

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Speaker 3: try it because I wanted to know why she wouldn't

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Speaker 3: stop to be there for us kids, you know.

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Speaker 2: Diane Vines told me that it's common for people who've

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Speaker 2: experienced high levels of childhood trauma to struggle with drugs alcohol.

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Speaker 10: I think they're self medicating, to be honest. You know,

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Speaker 10: when your body's feeling that tense and that and you're

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Speaker 10: that upset and you can't get those thoughts to stop.

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Speaker 10: Sometimes for often if you take us up sence, it'll

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Speaker 10: stop for a while. So if you can get that

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Speaker 10: dopamine hit that you can't get from people and that

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Speaker 10: you need so that you relieve that physiological distress, that's

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Speaker 10: very often what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: Roxanne admitted that this was one reason why she and

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Speaker 2: Devin used drugs often together.

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Speaker 10: There would be.

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Speaker 3: Times to where it's like, you know, like we'd be

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Speaker 3: sitting there crying with each other and then it's like

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Speaker 3: we hate our lives and it's as ridiculous. So it

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Speaker 3: sounds like we both sit there and cry together, and

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Speaker 3: then like right after we say all that stuff there,

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Speaker 3: we go light up a bowl, you know, because it's

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Speaker 3: it's like the only thing that would just make us

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Speaker 3: stop crying or feeling anything, you know. I didn't want

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Speaker 3: my life to turn out how it was and how

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Speaker 3: it is, and he didn't either.

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Speaker 7: I was at Charlie's apartment and I heard somebody out

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Speaker 7: in the living them night came up out of this

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Speaker 7: because I heard Devin was like, I just tell him

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Speaker 7: be dead.

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Speaker 4: I just tell Lidy.

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Speaker 2: Jamie Devins stepmom, remember seeing Devon on that day, December eleventh,

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. She and Charlie had split up by then,

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Speaker 2: but she said she was over at his apartment. In

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Speaker 2: her recollection, it was evening, but she admits she'd been

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Speaker 2: using drugs at the time, so her memory is a

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Speaker 2: little hazy still. She can't forget how Devin was acting.

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Speaker 7: But look on his face. He was terrified. I remember

329
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Speaker 7: being terrified, and he was shaken, and he said he

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Speaker 7: would just found her. And he's in panic mode, straight

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Speaker 7: panic grady that he founder and called Lie on one

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Speaker 7: and he left.

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Speaker 2: This, of course, is also the same story that Devin

334
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 2: told police the night of Libby's death. Jamie couldn't remember

335
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Speaker 2: any other details from that night, including Devin's phone call

336
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Speaker 2: from jail, where he seemingly asked her and Charlie to

337
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Speaker 2: tell police had been at their house. But Jamie told

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Speaker 2: me she is convinced that Devin's story is true, and

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Speaker 2: points to the fact that in twenty nineteen, IPD interviewed

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Speaker 2: him again and offered up a polygraph.

341
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Speaker 3: There is a way that you can show me that

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Speaker 3: you did didn't do this five to take throughs and

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00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:44,880
Speaker 3: how you're asking me is right.

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Speaker 4: Now, would you take one? Absolutely?

345
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Speaker 5: Would you pass it?

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Speaker 3: No question?

347
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,679
Speaker 5: Absolutely? I mean if you passed, that would settle this.

348
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 6: Well, let's go, what have you failing?

349
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Speaker 7: There's no, that's not an option.

350
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Speaker 2: Devin eventually took the polygraph, and he did pass, but

351
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 2: the idea that the results could quote settle the issue

352
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 2: of whether Devon was involved in Libby's death wasn't actually true.

353
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Speaker 2: Polygraphs have long been discredited because they're just not accurate,

354
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Speaker 2: and their results are no longer admissible in court. These days,

355
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 2: police use the polygraph mostly as an investigative tactic, a

356
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Speaker 2: way to put pressure on a suspect to confess. Still,

357
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: voluntarily taking and passing the polygraph was important to Devon

358
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Speaker 2: and his family. They saw it as proof of his innocence,

359
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,479
Speaker 2: something that showed just how far he had gone to

360
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 2: clear his name.

361
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 3: He had went through my detager tests and stuff, and

362
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 3: he passed them, and all of this still was out there.

363
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 2: Devin's sister, Roxanne, was upset about continued accusations against her

364
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: brother and about something Cindy did. Shortly after Libby's death.

365
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 2: She'd put up posters around Independence asking for information. The

366
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 2: posters included photos of Devon and Libby and the text

367
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 2: quote last scene with the mail above.

368
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 3: We were walking at that little hotdog store. I seen

369
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 3: my brother's face on a fire on their window, and

370
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 3: Cindy was like posting all of these things out there

371
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: saying that he was a murderer and if you see him,

372
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 3: report blah blah blah blah blah. How can you call

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Speaker 3: somebody a murderer when they're not even convicted or charged

374
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Speaker 3: or anything, you know.

375
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 9: I understand her drive that. I feel like she is

376
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Speaker 9: looking at the wrong person.

377
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 2: Devin's mom Mindy, despite everything, actually has a lot of

378
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: empathy for Cindy.

379
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Speaker 9: I tried to talk to Cindy after passed. I wanted

380
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 9: to tell her and I still do that I am

381
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 9: so sorry for what happened. I couldn't imagine living a child.

382
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 9: I couldn't imagine it.

383
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 2: Cindy's not the only one hurting. Devon's family says that

384
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 2: losing Libby has been immensely painful for Devon, and especially

385
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: in the immediate aftermath of Libby's death, Mindy worried for

386
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Speaker 2: her son's sanity.

387
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Speaker 9: I'm sorry this is hard for me because I loved Libby.

388
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 9: She was a part of our family for a long time.

389
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Speaker 9: I remember thinking, I hate that that's the last vision he.

390
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: Will have of her forever.

391
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Speaker 9: You know, after Libby, he was lost for a long time.

392
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 9: When Libby died, Devon was just lost.

393
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: Devin himself said as much in his second interview with

394
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Speaker 2: IPD in twenty nineteen.

395
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 5: Myself that day, truth, I has never been than that

396
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 5: I talk about Let's suicide was on my mind any.

397
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 4: After that stuff happened, because I didn't want.

398
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 5: To be alive, but I knew our friend needed somebody

399
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 5: and that's the only.

400
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 4: Reason that I'm still here.

401
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: And his stepmom Jamie saw the change in him too.

402
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 7: He didn't care what happened to him after Levy had died,

403
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 7: because he lost the love of his life.

404
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: This attitude is reflected in his arrests and interactions with

405
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: the police the summer before Libby's death. Devon may have

406
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 2: been one of the ipd's most active Corps offenders, but

407
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: in the years following Libby's death, Devin seemed to go

408
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: on a crime spree, accruing multiple convictions possession of a

409
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 2: controlled substance, tampering with a motor vehicle, stealing, two counts

410
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: of resisting arrest, and that was just in the state

411
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 2: of Missouri. In nearby Kansas, I can identify even more

412
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: by any measure, Devon was clearly struggling.

413
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, so he was ribbon and roaring through people's life.

414
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 7: Didn't care if you dying, He didn't care what happened

415
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 7: to himself.

416
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: Of course, you can analyze this behavior in a number

417
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 2: of ways. On one hand, this recklessness, this hopeless disorientation,

418
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: could be a sign of guilt. On the other hand,

419
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: it could be a response to an all consuming grief,

420
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 2: And the latter is what Devon's family holds onto. The

421
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: women I interviewed made it clear that they believe that

422
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: Devon was not responsible for Libby's death. I asked Roxanne

423
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 2: directly about this.

424
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 4: Are you one hundred percenter in that she died by

425
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 4: suicide and that no one else was involved?

426
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 3: How can anybody be one hundred percent certain?

427
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 4: Do you have any suspicions that Devon might have been involved?

428
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely not, absolutely not, Like they loved each other like

429
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 3: like no other I do. I think I know he

430
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: did not do anything to her.

431
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: But when I asked them about physical violence prior to

432
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 2: Louby's death, the physical violence that so many people have

433
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: alleged happened in the relationship. They're decidedly less certain. Here's Jamie.

434
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 7: I did not see any violence between the two of them,

435
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 7: but I did hear of it, And when I left

436
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 7: Devin's father, I went about my own way, so I

437
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 7: wasn't there for the worst part of it. Of the relationship.

438
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 7: They just never got like that in front of me,

439
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 7: So it's hard for me to think that he is

440
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 7: like that.

441
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 2: Mindy, Devin's mom, conceded the relationship did involve some abuse,

442
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: just of a different kind.

443
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 9: I mean, my son emotionally abused her. I witnessed that,

444
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 9: but I never witnessed any physical abuse from Devin to

445
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 9: her besides maybe restraining her. You know, they fought a lot,

446
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 9: and a lot of the physical part actually was from Livvy,

447
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 9: you know, and she was a feisy little thing.

448
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: But Mindy admitted there may have been things she hadn't seen.

449
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 9: Behind closed doors. You know, nobody really knows, honestly, and

450
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 9: with drugs involved. I mean, I've experienced it myself. You know,

451
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 9: I've lived here it.

452
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: Myself, Mindy, Roxanne, Jamie. Their responses don't entirely surprise me.

453
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: In my many years reporting on domestic violence, I've interacted

454
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: with a lot of family members of men accused of

455
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: hurting their partners, and by and large, they tend not

456
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: to believe the allegations of abuse, regardless of the strength

457
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: of the evidence in front of them. Denial is a

458
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 2: powerful coping mechanism. It allows us to without having to

459
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: critically examine the past and our roles in it. I

460
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: saw an example of this denial in my conversation with

461
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: Roxanne when I asked her about the alleged strangulation of

462
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: Libby that occurred one week before her death, the strangulation

463
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: that was witnessed by Gary Stevens. She told me she

464
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: thought Gary had made it up.

465
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 4: So do you not believe that he's telling the truth?

466
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 3: No? No, Why would anybody in their right mind like

467
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 3: allow a man that is supposedly choking this chick leaves

468
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: together and then not report it until after she dead.

469
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 4: I'm telling you, I've interviewed him and his story is

470
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 4: very credible to me, Like he cares about Devin, and

471
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 4: he's very conflicted that he you know that he had

472
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 4: to go to the police and report what he saw.

473
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: But later in our conversation, she conceded that it was

474
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 2: possible Gary was telling the truth. The more we talked,

475
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: she backed off her black and white response to the

476
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: accusations about Devon's behavior and seemed open to exploring the

477
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: uncomfortable gray area of domestic violence. In fact, Roxane recognized

478
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: a similarity between Devon and Libby's relationship and the one

479
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: she herself had been in back then, a relationship that

480
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: she acknowledged wasn't especially healthy.

481
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: In both of our relationships, they're not in abusive ways,

482
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: but they give us toxic more mental you know, like

483
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: menernal sociopath my manipulating gas lighting masters is what I

484
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: call them.

485
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: So that could be considered like emotional abuse. There's certainly

486
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 4: different different ways that people can hurt their partner. That's

487
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 4: not only physical, and.

488
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 3: Even emotional you know, can turn into physical, like in

489
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: your body, you know what I mean, Like it can

490
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 3: make you make you sick, you know.

491
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,239
Speaker 2: Roxanne had been shocked when she heard the story that

492
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: Libby had died by suicide. She too had seen how

493
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 2: much Libby loved Xavier and how dedicated she was to

494
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: her son. But Roxanne also believed the toxicity of Libby

495
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: and Devon's relationship could have been partially responsible.

496
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 4: So are you saying that you believe she might have

497
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 4: been driven to suicide because you know there was so

498
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 4: much like emotional abuse and stuff going on in her.

499
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: Relationships with dev Yes, that's the first thought that came

500
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: into my head, was that she was just so tired

501
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: of being tired of having to keep up with Devon

502
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 3: just to feel loved and to love him.

503
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: Roxanne told me she could imagine why Libby might have

504
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: felt like this because it's something she had felt too

505
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: in her relationship with her ex boyfriend.

506
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: I'm gonna try, but it's right. I have tried most

507
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: of the time taking myself because I loved him so much,

508
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: and then he just wouldn't stop doing drugs.

509
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 6: You know, probably the most surprising thing is that we

510
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 6: keep looking for conscious intent. You know, we keep thinking, well,

511
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 6: abusers must know what they're doing, they're consciously setting about

512
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 6: to be controlling and domineering. I don't think it operates

513
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 6: at that level.

514
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: This is David Adams, a psychologist and co founder of Emerge,

515
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: the first counseling program in the nation for men who

516
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: abuse women.

517
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 6: Most abusive men in my experience somehow think of themselves

518
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 6: as victims. And it all comes from this sort of

519
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 6: self centered orientation. And these are men who are being

520
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 6: extremely controlling and domineering, and yet they somehow manage to

521
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 6: think of themselves as victims.

522
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to David Adams because, just as

523
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: it's important to work on improving the systems of support

524
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: for victims of domestic violence, I also believe people who

525
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: use violence against their partners deserve help too. They often

526
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: have their own trauma to process, their own struggles to overcome,

527
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: and if we truly want to end the cycle of violence,

528
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 2: we can't afford to ignore those who perpetrate it. We

529
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: don't have reliable statistics on how many men commit domestic

530
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: violence in the US, but we know it's a staggeringly

531
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: large number. Consider that, according to the CDC, one in

532
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 2: four women will experience physical violence by their intimate partner

533
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: at some point during their lifetime. Back in the nineteen seventies,

534
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: when David Adams first began working with this population of men,

535
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: the US was finally beginning to reckon with the pervasiveness

536
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: of domestic violence and the permissive culture that allowed it

537
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: to thrive. States began to develop specific laws that criminalized

538
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: abusive behavior. The first shelters opened for victims, but for

539
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: men who were using violence, there were very few options

540
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: beyond jail, and that's where a merge came in.

541
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 6: The founders of were merged or ten men. Some of

542
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 6: us were social workers just fresh out of graduate school.

543
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 6: Some of us were teachers. I think we had one

544
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 6: taxi driver. What we had in common was that we

545
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 6: had female friends who had been involved in establishing some

546
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 6: of the first so called battered women's programs. Our friends

547
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 6: would tell us that they would get calls on their

548
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 6: hotlines from men, and these were abusive men, and they

549
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 6: were actually seeking help. And the women didn't feel it

550
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 6: was their responsibility to help the abuser, but they still

551
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 6: felt that there should be some sort of help available.

552
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 6: So they asked us, as a group of men that

553
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 6: they knew and trusted, would we be willing to take

554
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 6: this on.

555
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: David and his friends did take it on, but in

556
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven, there was very little research to guide

557
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: their approach. They spoke with a bunch of women who'd

558
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: been abused, and one of them gave them something that

559
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: shifted how they'd been thinking about the issue.

560
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 6: One of the women actually had encouraged her abusive partner

561
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 6: to send an audio tape to us, and so one

562
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 6: evening we sat around listening to this hour and a

563
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 6: half audiotape in which he was apologizing. I think he

564
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 6: was desperate to be back in the relationship with her.

565
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 6: But what was really interesting to us was that his

566
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 6: pologies pretty quickly turned to making excuses for his abusive

567
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 6: behavior and even romanticizing his abusive behavior, that somehow his

568
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 6: feelings are so strong, you know, the loves are so

569
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 6: strongly that his jealousy comes out. That was eye opening

570
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 6: for us because we were very naive about domestic violence,

571
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 6: and we thought, well, well, just tell them that it's wrong, right,

572
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 6: And so this kind of introduced us to the idea

573
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 6: that it was a lot more complicated. There was not

574
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 6: just the abusive behavior, but there was ways that it

575
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 6: was justified and rationalized.

576
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 2: The intervention program that developed from these conversations decades ago

577
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: has been refined over time. Emerge is now a forty

578
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: week program where men meet regularly to discuss their history

579
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 2: with violence and work on developing critical skills to change

580
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: their behavior. About half of the men who participate are

581
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: court mandated the other half show up of their own accord.

582
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: Emerge has two cornerstones, respect and empathy, both their skills

583
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: Adams believe can be taught. In weekly sessions. The men

584
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: do exercises to model respectful behavior and learn how to

585
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: empathize with their partners and the pain they endured as

586
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: a result of the abuse. I wanted to speak directly

587
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: to someone who'd used violence against their partner and was

588
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: working to address their issues, and so David Adams connected

589
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 2: me to an emerged participant who was willing to share

590
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: his experience. His name is Tyler. He's twenty four and

591
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: works in a restaurant in Massachusetts.

592
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 5: Me and by a girlfriend at the time got into

593
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 5: an argument because I suspected her cheating, and instead of

594
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 5: having a full conversation about it and Peter Rachel, I

595
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 5: just kind of acted out fully and so he went

596
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 5: to angry. Didn't have any other emotion other than that.

597
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 5: So I started yelling me, I started throwing things, I

598
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 5: pushed her, and I just kept escalating from there and

599
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 5: I ended up breaking her phone. She had cuts on

600
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 5: her hand. I grabbed her throat for a second and

601
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 5: into let go.

602
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: Tyler was arrested, charged and convicted of domestic violence. As

603
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: part of his sentence, he is mandated to attend forty

604
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: weeks of Emerge. At the time I spoke with him

605
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 2: on the phone during a work break, he had been

606
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 2: in the program for sixteen weeks.

607
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 5: It brings up a lot from like my child is

608
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 5: seeing the best aside from my father and my mother,

609
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 5: and hearing everywhere else's stories. Yeah, there was quite a

610
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 5: bit of trauma in my life as a kid. I

611
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 5: was molested, was taking advantage by multiple people in my family.

612
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 5: It was kind of all just, yeah, everything round after another.

613
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: Tyler said the men in the group had a lot

614
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 2: in common, especially as they looked back on their upbringings.

615
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 5: It's like me realizing that, hey, I've been around in

616
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 5: my whole life. I've never really realized it. But hearing

617
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 5: everyone's different story kind of brings up late. Okay, there's

618
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 5: other people that are in the same boat that I was,

619
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 5: or have done the same thing, and they're trying to

620
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 5: better their acting.

621
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: The assault that led Tyler to Emerge, it wasn't the

622
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: first time he was arrested for domestic violence against his girlfriend.

623
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: He told me it happened once before three years earlier,

624
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: and though he said he wasn't physically violent with her

625
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: in those intervening years until the recent arrest, he's since

626
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: come to see more of his behavior as abusive, the

627
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: way he talked to her, monitored her activities, and controlled

628
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: their finances. I asked him to describe his feelings now

629
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: about how he treated her back then.

630
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 5: I feel defeated and hate towards myself because not only

631
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 5: did I do what I saw happened to my mother,

632
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 5: I did what I saw happened to my mother, to

633
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 5: the mother of my three kids, everything like that. I

634
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 5: caused her pain in a way that I never wanted it.

635
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: Tyler imagines that his girlfriend now X, feels betrayed. He

636
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: said they haven't spoken since the night he strangled her.

637
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 2: She has a protective order that bar's contact. Instead, he's

638
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: working on himself at e Merge, and he's optimistic about

639
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: his capacity for change.

640
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 5: You always hear the expression once an abuser always abused her.

641
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: I don't want to be that. That's not who I

642
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: want to be.

643
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 5: I don't want to be the person that everyone's afraid of,

644
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 5: that someone slinches around or you can't talk to her

645
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 5: where you're afraid of having someone taken away. I don't

646
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 5: want to be that person.

647
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: For Tyler's sake, for his future partner's sake, I hope

648
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,959
Speaker 2: he's sists that he's able to recognize and refrain from

649
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 2: all forms of abusive behavior. Going through a merge certainly

650
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 2: improves his chances. But hearing about Tyler's ongoing journey made

651
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: me reflect on what I know about Devon. As far

652
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 2: as I'm aware, Devon has never had an experience like emerge,

653
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 2: an opportunity to interrogate his past and learn how to

654
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: move forward in a healthy way. I think about Devon, who,

655
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 2: as a teenager, was exhibiting lots of signs of being

656
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 2: vulnerable and in need of help. What types of interventions

657
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: could have made a difference. All those times IPD showed

658
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: up and did nothing to help Libby, they also did

659
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: nothing to help Devon. And all the people in Devon's life,

660
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 2: and all the institutions that are supposed to prevent kids

661
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: from slipping through the cracks? Did they miss all the

662
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: signs that Devon was headed for disaster. One of the

663
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: more stable adults in Devon's life back then was Cindy.

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00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 5: Do you have any facy for Devan.

665
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: I really do. It's very hard because I knew him

666
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: as a kid. I knew the potential as a kid

667
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: that he had. He was academically on top of things

668
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: in school. He could have been a star football player.

669
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: He really was funny.

670
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 9: You know.

671
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 1: I'd seen how he had it with his family members,

672
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, and I would think sympathetically with that poor kid.

673
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: You know, he just never had a good chance. He's

674
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: got these drug addicted people in his life that are

675
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: he's depending on. And I helped him get some help

676
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: through the child services, like get a clothing voucher, but

677
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: he didn't have any anybody did, like enrolling in school

678
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: or anything. I wanted to help him, I really did.

679
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,439
Speaker 2: But that was several years ago, long before Libby would

680
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 2: be found in a motel bathroom with Devon's belt wrapped

681
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 2: around her neck. Those early feelings of empathy for Devon

682
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: have been replaced by anger and grief, feelings that are

683
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: even more complicated because Cindy is raising Libby and Devon's son,

684
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: and even though Devon's parental rights were terminated after Libby's death,

685
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: he's still Exavier's father. Cindy has to grapple with how

686
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 2: to raise a child who in many ways has lost

687
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: both parents.

688
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 8: So we made a memory book, and that was one

689
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 8: of my first things I did for him, so that

690
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 8: he could see his mother's face and every picture is

691
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 8: him and her. I just decided I was never going

692
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 8: to tell him Bette his dead. He didn't need to

693
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 8: know him. He's not even in parties life. But in therapy,

694
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 8: Xavier wants to know this that is, you know. So

695
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 8: that's real hard, you know. I didn't never want to

696
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 8: do that. But so we added two pictures to his

697
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 8: book and it's of him and his mom and dad,

698
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 8: and I told him his name.

699
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 9: You know, and.

700
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 3: You just can't.

701
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: Pretend he didn't ever have a dad. It was unrealistic.

702
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 3: Give me.

703
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: In the next and final episode of What Happened to

704
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 2: Libby Caswell, and.

705
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: So in my mind, I thought, why don't they know

706
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: about this? Why is this a secret? It feels like

707
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: a secret, you know.

708
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 3: When I seen that story that I was floored. I

709
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 3: really was.

710
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 5: That's not what happened.

711
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 6: If this was a powerful woman with status in the culture,

712
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 6: this case would have been resolved by now and the

713
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 6: would be in jail.

714
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 2: What happened to Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted

715
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: by me Melissa Jolson, with writing and story editing by

716
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: Marisa Brown and Lauren Hanson. This episode was edited by

717
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: Zubin Hensler. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch for iHeart Podcast.

718
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 2: Executive producers are Jason English At Katrina Norvel, with our

719
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 2: supervising producer Carl Catel fact checking by Maya Shukri. Our

720
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed by

721
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolfe. Original music by Aaron Kaufman

722
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 2: with additional music by Jeremy Thall our episodes are mixed

723
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 2: and mastered by Carl Catele. To find out more about

724
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: my investigation or to send a tip, please email me

725
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: at what Happened to Libby at gmail dot com. Thanks

726
00:43:52,680 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 2: so much for listening