WEBVTT - How to Actually Win at Work (Without Playing Yourself) With Ginny Clarke 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.480 And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:40.000 the conversation. It's time to question everything. I don't know 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.839 about you, but my algorithm is hitting me with so 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.199 much career advice lately. Like every scroll, I see a 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.960 new how to win at work post, and I've started 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.600 to notice something. A lot of it sounds right in theory, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.600 but a lot of it doesn't actually work once you're 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.240 in the room. Have you thought that too? I think 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.240 the rules of work are changing, and pretty fast. The 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.880 pandemic reset absolutely everything, and the return to office has 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.199 left a lot of people unsure how to navigate. Add 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.000 in an unstable economy, the rise of AI, and a 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.759 job market that seems to raise more questions than it answers, 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.480 and it's no wonder a lot of people feel really stuck. 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.520 Today's guest Jenny Clark has a really refreshing take on 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:26.240 all of this. Ginny spent more than thirty five years 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.800 in executive recruiting and talent leadership, including as a partner 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.240 at Spencer Stewart and Director of executive Recruiting at Google. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.920 She specializes in working with leaders high performers, and her take, 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.680 work is just a game and a win. You're going 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:41.880 to have to learn how to play. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.000 It's a game, and once you understand that, you won't 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:49.080 fight against it all the time. You've got broken people, 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:54.880 brilliant people, happy people, angry people, disturbed people, all here 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.400 thrown together to do something. And it's a game and 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.200 it's not always well played, so learn to play it. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.680 In this conversation, we get into what recruiters actually care about, 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.040 the mistakes that quietly kill your chances, and the truth 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.320 about work that people avoid, like why your title might 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:13.800 be limiting you and why success doesn't always go to 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.920 the most qualified person. So here's the question that I 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.640 can't shake. If work is a game, why does it 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:21.720 feel like no one ever taught us how to play? 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.560 Or worse, are we playing by rules that don't even 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:33.600 work anymore? It's time to question everything with Jenny Clark. So, Genny, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.280 we say unfinished business, funny business, mind your business, back 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.200 to business, and lately standing on business. 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:42.960 I love that all of them. 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.680 When it comes to work, do most of us not 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:47.040 even know what our business is? 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.440 Yeah? I think that's probably true in what ways. I 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.639 think we can be sort of myopic. We have a job, 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.800 we show up, and we do what's expected of us 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.120 or what someone tells us in the moment to do. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.680 I'm not sure we ask enough questions, even small questions 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.120 like am I kind of doing this right? If someone's 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.680 still learning philosophical questions? Do I even care about this work? 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.320 You know? Should I be here? I go sort of 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.560 micro to meta, you know, sort of out there. So yeah, 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.680 I think we can do better about understanding the business 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:23.639 that we're in and why. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.400 I love that you talk about the why, because your 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.960 work actually really centers around story, Like you feel, each 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.000 of us should have our personal story down in a 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.720 way that we can communicate to our employers, to our peers. 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.600 I don't know that I've ever thought about that. I 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.040 think about it in terms of communicating to my audience, right, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.400 but I've never thought about it in the corporate world. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:46.480 How did you come up with that? 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.119 I became an executive recruiter. That was sort of the 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:53.360 midpoint of my career roughly, so I interviewed literally thousands 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.120 of people, and I would ask I always started the 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.520 interview with tell me about yourself, and people would say, well, 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.760 you know, it's my resume. I'm like, no, I read it. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.920 It's the dreaded question, though, Jenny. I get when someone says, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.840 tell me about yourself, I'm like, oh, where do I start. 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.000 Well, you can textualize it in the context of sitting 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.960 across from an executive recruiter, then yes, I want you 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.120 to tell me the stuff that's relevant to this job, 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:18.719 but that's not on your resume. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.000 So don't say, well, I was born in Chicago. 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.360 It all depends on who you're talking to. I mean, 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:25.120 if we're sitting here just getting to know each other, 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.560 that's a connection point. That's actually part of what you're 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.720 trying to do is connect Now, it might not always work, 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.920 but you're offering something about yourself that hopefully is relevant 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.120 to why you're sitting across from each other. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.080 I've never like really worked in the corporate world. I've 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.039 worked in newsrooms, so you might have to speak to 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.920 me in this interview like I'm a baby not to worry. 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.359 What is relevant information to a recruiter? 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.279 Well, your journey and why? And maybe I'm especially sensitive 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.640 because someone called my path meandering someone I was interviewing with, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:58.640 and I said, I don't see it that way at all. 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.000 I made very de liberate decisions. It wasn't linear, but 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.520 I decided what I wanted to do. Well. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:06.799 I learned from you people make five to seven career 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:07.720 transitions in your. 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.479 Lifetimeutely, of course, and that's fine, and the number is 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:11.080 going to go up. 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.720 So if I'm thinking, if I'm trying to be strategic 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:17.800 and give you relevant information. You were a recruiter for Google, right, 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.640 and it's obviously a tech company, but. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.200 First at a global search firm, So yes, Google was different, 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:25.039 very different. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.840 I only bring up Google because I think that in 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.560 the zeitgeist, it's become known for its recruiting. The company 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.520 wants the best talent and oftentimes gets it. So I 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.320 think just having that as your background is such a 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.880 feather in your cap. But in terms of what's relevant, 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.360 did you ever interview somebody and thought, Wow, they nailed it? 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:45.920 And why? 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:47.800 Here's part of what I'm getting at as I sit 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.120 here and think about it, listening to you playing it back. 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.160 I'm looking for and this is me because every recruiter 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.520 is different. Some recruiters are looking for have you done 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.000 it before? Have you done it before? Have you done 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.720 it before? Check? Check, check, you're qualified. Go. I've learned 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:05.440 that that doesn't necessarily correlate to one's level of competence 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:05.920 in a role. 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.880 The best person I've ever hired for social media had 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.560 no social media experience, And. 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.520 How do you know that they should be good? You're 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:13.520 taking a bit of a bet. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:15.479 But you know what, it didn't even feel like a 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.000 bet because I looked at her and I thought, you 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.520 are a proactive person. You are a figure it out, 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.400 can do person, and you'll figure out anything. And she 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.320 was better than all the other people I hired that 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.640 had social media experience. I believe it is that what 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:30.560 you're looking for. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.840 Well, I'm looking for a level of self awareness such 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.800 that you can reflect on your own career and extract 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.680 from me what's the most relevant to why we're sitting 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.520 here today. Okay, in general, when I was recruiting, that 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.640 was it. It was how are you responding to me. 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.920 I think I'm very conversational in my interviewing style, and 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.880 so I wondered the extent to which they were actually 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.920 listening to me and interacting with me, versus taking very 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.200 calculated pauses to consider what they think might be the 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.159 perfect response. That's not flow, that's not being in the moment, 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.320 that's having been rehearsed. 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.040 That's really interesting. I don't know that I would have 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.040 considered that. Like, I go into an interview and I 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.040 want to be so prepared that sometimes, like you might 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.320 answer a question with a prepared SoundBite versus being in 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.960 the moment, and you're saying that wins over the preparation 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:24.280 for you. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.360 For me, Yeah, every recruiter is completely different. I'll tell 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.040 you if I can. When I was at Google, I 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.840 took on an additional role than what I was hired 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.240 for to create an internal mobility program. So I wanted 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.040 to hire people from within Google. So I put it 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.880 out there and started interviewing just a handful of folks, 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:43.600 and one of the women did something I will never 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.440 forget that was so impressive to me. I asked a question. 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.240 These were all qualitative questions, no calculation required, and I 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.360 asked it and she said, give me a minute. And 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:54.160 she put her head down, and she had brought a 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.200 pen and pad, and she wrote out her thought. For 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.320 whatever reason, I thought it was somewhat courageous to have 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.240 the presence of mind to say I need a minute. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.960 It said so much. I'd never seen anybody do it 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:07.160 before or since. 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:08.760 It signals confidence. 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.880 Well, here's the thing. So she ended up working for me, okay, 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.520 and then she now works for me again. I've been 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.200 gone for five years and she moved to Connecticut, but 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.600 she's working with me part time. And I mentioned it 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.160 to her and she said, Ginny, that was because I'm 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.880 actually very introverted, which I actually didn't know about her, 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.560 and introverted is different from shi, right, But she said, 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.440 I just needed to get my head clear because I 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.040 had stood on an elevator with you. You didn't know 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.160 who I was, and I was so completely intimidated by you. 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.599 Sitting across from you. I was getting flustered, and I 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.600 knew I wanted to respond succinctly, so I wrote it down. 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.000 That is so impressive, and to have the presence of 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.920 mind to do that, that's right. My dad always said 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.480 to me that if you feel like people are going 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.160 on and on in phone calls that you should actually 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.319 always say, can you just email me? And it's not 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.679 to be rude or push them off. It's because when 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.560 people are writing, they have to be succinct. They're thinking 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:04.640 about being succinct. 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.640 Yes, yeah, otherwise people will just drone on and on yeah. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.440 So doing that in an interview is amazing. 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:11.880 I thought it was impressive. 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.000 So to go back kind of to our first question, 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.800 if we take away the titles and the LinkedIn profiles 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.679 and all of our email signatures, what would we really 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.520 know about our business? What our business is. 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.320 In general, Like we as a populist or an individual. 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.880 Individual, I think we hang our hat on these titles, 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.960 and it's hard to communicate what we really do. Like 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:36.600 I can tell you I'm in the business of interviewing, 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.360 but that's not really what I do. I really am 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.120 a storyteller. I am a connector. 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:43.040 You know. 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.240 I could give you four things of what I actually do, 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.320 but I think that's hard to deduce, especially like if 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:49.599 you're in mortgages. 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.600 Well, but you tell a story about maybe starting with 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.720 how you came here, and again the most relevant parts 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.200 to the other person listening to you. It was so 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.840 funny when I'd asked that question every single one of 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.160 my interviewees, tell me about yourself, and some people would 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:05.880 just choke like, well, I you know, I don't know 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:07.400 what to say. It's just you know, it's right there 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.840 on the resume. Other people would just kind of say 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:15.640 something summary of the resume and stop after three minutes, 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:17.760 and then I'd have to start probing. And I'm not 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.000 judging people harshly necessarily, but it was more the answers 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.880 than the process. Then I had people who would go 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.800 on and on and tell me, well, in first grade, 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.599 you know I did this, and then I'm like, okay, no, 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.240 let me give you a quick outline. Here's what I'm 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.840 looking for. I'm looking for connection points of how do 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.199 you think That's part of what I'm looking for, not 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.080 just what you've done. Why did you make these moves? 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.120 What precipitated some of these moves? You can tell me 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.920 part of your personal story. You had to care for 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.160 a sick parent, or you had to take time off to, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.240 you know, deal with the child with special needs. Tell 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.959 me those things that to me is interesting, is a 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.920 directly relevant to the job, Not necessarily, but it gives 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.360 me some insight into some of the things that you've 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.160 been through that might help shape how you think. And 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.160 that's what I'm really looking for. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.559 So the personal is professional in your mind. 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.400 Yeah. I'd learned that probably the most when I got 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.559 to Spencer Stewart, because I've just gone through some of 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.120 the hardest times in my life, and so I needed 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.680 to integrate what was going on, just having lost my mother, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.840 my son being one year old, asking my husband for divorce, 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.400 I say that kindly telling him and then showing up 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.600 at this global search firm. That was my first month 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:35.600 in all that had happened. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.040 And you were the only person of color there. Yes, 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.320 So you were navigating that too, Yes. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.599 And I had been working with a healer. He's so 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.040 much more than a healer. He's a shaman, a guru, 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.360 close personal friend, really gifted. He's a therapist, he's a theologian. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:52.920 And so I had been on my spiritual journey for 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.800 a number of years, and I just knew I needed 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.360 to integrate these things. It's not like I can meditate 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.400 in the morning and and be fine and sort of peaceful, 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.120 or at least seeking having that place as my place 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.480 of respite and meditation and reflection and then come to 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.200 work and just be like going hard. I needed to 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.480 be the same person at my core, never trying to 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.560 impose my beliefs on anyone in the workplace, but just 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.400 showing up as who I am. There's one of me, 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.000 and yeah we code switch, but at my core, what 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.920 I believe in, what I believe about myself, that needs 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.120 to show up every day, and I'm not going to 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.480 suppress that because that weakens me. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.360 That's interesting because I guess in my profession as a broadcaster, 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:39.920 I've often thought, is it chicken or the egg? Like 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.960 I used to do morning TV, and I could be 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.120 going through something so terrible in my personal life, but 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.200 you have to show up and be really sunny on 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.000 TV like you do. Have to kind of compartmentalize. And 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.720 I always think, are people who are good at that 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.560 drawn to that profession or do you learn it in 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.200 the profession. I'm not sure, but I really like the 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.360 idea of finding a way to integrate. 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.600 And it can be quiet, it can be internal, not 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.560 necessarily perceptible to others. Although people kind of saw me 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.679 as the spiritual one, I had this aura about me. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.400 Yeah, I was told I think people were drawn to 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:15.960 you and that's why they're drawn to you on social 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:16.640 media today. 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:18.520 Well, that'd be nice. I appreciate that. 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.719 It's true. I feel like, at least on my algorithm, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.960 I'm swimming in career content. Do you think that any 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:26.880 of it is valuable? 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.559 Yeah, you know, depending on where you are in your career, 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:32.760 what it is that you're looking to get out of it, 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:34.840 and then I think a lot of it is noise. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.360 Unfortunately, I agree, But I've actually learned a lot from 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:43.319 online career coaches or little resume tips. I had no idea, 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.480 and we're going to talk about AI later, but I 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.320 learned the other day on TikTok some woman was saying, 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.120 on your resume, you should put a bunch of keywords 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.400 in white ink so that they get past the computer 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.640 system that's looking for certain keywords, so you can get 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.800 to the next level, to get to a human I 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:02.000 was like, I would have never known that. 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.800 I didn't know that because I never worked with algorithms. 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.280 Yeah, it's a whole different thing. 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:09.080 Yeah. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.880 Do you think that professionalism is important nowadays or does 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:14.200 it feel manufactured? 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.160 I don't know what it is anymore, you know, I mean, 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.840 I go back to I came out of graduate school 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.680 in the eighties. All right, I'm seriously dating myself. So 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.920 it was skirts and pantyhose and all of that. So 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.880 it was very different, but I kind of yearned for 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:33.040 a little bit more formality. I mean, going to Silicon Valley, it's, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.000 you know, the epitome of casual. I just did a 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.240 video talking about what we wear and how there's an 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.440 element of I'm not remembering the word that they use, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.960 but there's a psychological term that says that when you 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.480 like the way you dress, when you feel good about 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.680 yourself in the way that you're dressed, you think more clearly. 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.040 You show up differently. 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.000 Also, people take you more seriously whether you want to 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:55.680 do better or no. 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.840 Yes, absolutely they do, and understanding who it is your 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.840 across from. I was in professional services. We served clients. 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.320 You had to show up, You had to present yourself 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.640 well to your clients, and some of that is the 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:09.440 way that you look. 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.080 Early in my career, I was financially struggling a lot, 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.000 and I always made sure that part of my small 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:22.520 budget went to hair and makeup and clothing. And a 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.720 lot of people would have said that's a waste and 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.840 that's crazy. But I really felt like no one was 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.920 going to hire me unless I looked the part. 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:31.600 I believe. 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:33.760 Did you always do that? Did you dress for the 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.280 job you wanted? Yeah? 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:40.120 And I just have my own personal style and standards 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.840 of dressing. You know, my mother was one of those 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.320 women who you don't go to the grocery store without 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.000 putting lipstick on it. Literally, she would say that. So 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.960 I grew up. It wasn't bussy, it wasn't showy, but 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.120 she taught me how to dress for my body. I'm 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.680 six feet tall and super long legs, and so I 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.800 couldn't wear with all the three girls we're wearing. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:03.600 So you look like this going to get coffee in 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:04.000 the morning. 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:04.680 Pretty much. 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:10.080 I aspire to that level of professionalism. I am homeless 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.720 or Hollywood. There is no in between. It's truly amazing. 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.000 You know. I'm not obsessive. And again, it's not for 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:16.480 your show. 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.120 It's just it's who you are. 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:19.680 This is how I show up. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.840 I think we live in this era of main character energy. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.280 Do you think that kind of energy helps or hurts 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:36.680 at work? 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:38.400 Some of that is going to fly in the face 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.720 of collaboration, which is for most people, even if you're 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.520 an individual contributor at work, you need to be able 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.840 to get along with others, plain nice with others as 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.800 they say. So. Yes, I think it can fly in 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.920 the face of this showing up and being the main character. 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.000 It's not always about you, I know. 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.920 I think about like how you can show up and 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.600 be the main character without pissing people off. And it's like, 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:05.560 be extra competent. 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.960 Be competent, be perceptive, watch signals. What is your goal 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.560 in being there? Because depending on what the gathering is 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.600 about your participant. Now, if you're the one sucking the 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.359 air out of the room, always wanted to raise your 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.840 hand and say the most important thing that gets tiresome, 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:22.000 you're going to turn people off. 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.520 Do you know Bozoma Saint John. That is somebody who 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.640 I look at her and I'm like, you brought main 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:32.120 character energy to your jobs and people loved you for it. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.880 She must be really perceptive because she knew like when 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.119 to bring it and when to listen. And if you 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.680 bring that kind of energy, you have to be really perceptive. 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.600 It seems you absolutely do. And I think what's really 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.440 dare I say in Vogue now is the authenticity. Are 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.480 you putting on a show, are you doing something actually 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:55.440 just for someone else to observe, or are we seeing 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:55.840 the real you? 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:56.400 Yeah? 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.280 Because I think some people wear masks at work. 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.600 You've talked about something called role prison. Can you explain 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:03.199 what that is? 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:05.800 Well, people get into a role and they think that's 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.399 all they can never do. Is that what you're referring to. 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.320 Yeah, Like people start behaving according to what they think 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.320 their title requires, yeah, rather than what the work needs. 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.800 That's dangerous because part of it tells me that on 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.399 just a personal level, you're caught up in a title. 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.080 That's your first mistake. Because these titles anywhere pick a place, 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:27.920 they tend to be ridiculous, right, I mean we've seen 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:29.320 some that are just really crazy. 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.040 Do titles matter anymore? 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.520 We're still in a hierarchical environment, and so to the 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.840 extent that it shows rank or level, people in those 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.359 roles want that. They want others below them subordinates to 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:49.159 respect their title and hopefully there's a commensurate amount of 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.440 competence that goes with the title. That's a big if, 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.159 because I've worked for people who had big titles who 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.560 weren't always as competent as I would have expected. 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.639 How do you navigate that situation when you feel like 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:01.080 you know more than your boss? 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.399 Do your best to build them up. That's what I 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.000 would say. It's not going to serve you well to babmoutholm. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.919 Other people are probably aware of it, and so to 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.919 the extent that you can fill the gap, do that. 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.879 I've heard you talk about competence a lot. Yeah, and 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.320 you've said that it's the real currency in the room. 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:18.679 What do you mean by that. 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.480 Well, let me describe what the term and I talk 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.760 about competencies. I was trained to do competency based assessment 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.600 as a recruiter. The way I describe competencies as the 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.239 deconstructed elements of how you do something. It's not just 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.400