Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
Speaker 1: And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. I don't know
Speaker 1: about you, but my algorithm is hitting me with so
Speaker 1: much career advice lately. Like every scroll, I see a
Speaker 1: new how to win at work post, and I've started
Speaker 1: to notice something. A lot of it sounds right in theory,
Speaker 1: but a lot of it doesn't actually work once you're
Speaker 1: in the room. Have you thought that too? I think
Speaker 1: the rules of work are changing, and pretty fast. The
Speaker 1: pandemic reset absolutely everything, and the return to office has
Speaker 1: left a lot of people unsure how to navigate. Add
Speaker 1: in an unstable economy, the rise of AI, and a
Speaker 1: job market that seems to raise more questions than it answers,
Speaker 1: and it's no wonder a lot of people feel really stuck.
Speaker 1: Today's guest Jenny Clark has a really refreshing take on
Speaker 1: all of this. Ginny spent more than thirty five years
Speaker 1: in executive recruiting and talent leadership, including as a partner
Speaker 1: at Spencer Stewart and Director of executive Recruiting at Google.
Speaker 1: She specializes in working with leaders high performers, and her take,
Speaker 1: work is just a game and a win. You're going
Speaker 1: to have to learn how to play.
Speaker 2: It's a game, and once you understand that, you won't
Speaker 2: fight against it all the time. You've got broken people,
Speaker 2: brilliant people, happy people, angry people, disturbed people, all here
Speaker 2: thrown together to do something. And it's a game and
Speaker 2: it's not always well played, so learn to play it.
Speaker 1: In this conversation, we get into what recruiters actually care about,
Speaker 1: the mistakes that quietly kill your chances, and the truth
Speaker 1: about work that people avoid, like why your title might
Speaker 1: be limiting you and why success doesn't always go to
Speaker 1: the most qualified person. So here's the question that I
Speaker 1: can't shake. If work is a game, why does it
Speaker 1: feel like no one ever taught us how to play?
Speaker 1: Or worse, are we playing by rules that don't even
Speaker 1: work anymore? It's time to question everything with Jenny Clark. So, Genny,
Speaker 1: we say unfinished business, funny business, mind your business, back
Speaker 1: to business, and lately standing on business.
Speaker 2: I love that all of them.
Speaker 1: When it comes to work, do most of us not
Speaker 1: even know what our business is?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that's probably true in what ways. I
Speaker 2: think we can be sort of myopic. We have a job,
Speaker 2: we show up, and we do what's expected of us
Speaker 2: or what someone tells us in the moment to do.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure we ask enough questions, even small questions
Speaker 2: like am I kind of doing this right? If someone's
Speaker 2: still learning philosophical questions? Do I even care about this work?
Speaker 2: You know? Should I be here? I go sort of
Speaker 2: micro to meta, you know, sort of out there. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I think we can do better about understanding the business
Speaker 2: that we're in and why.
Speaker 1: I love that you talk about the why, because your
Speaker 1: work actually really centers around story, Like you feel, each
Speaker 1: of us should have our personal story down in a
Speaker 1: way that we can communicate to our employers, to our peers.
Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever thought about that. I
Speaker 1: think about it in terms of communicating to my audience, right,
Speaker 1: but I've never thought about it in the corporate world.
Speaker 1: How did you come up with that?
Speaker 2: I became an executive recruiter. That was sort of the
Speaker 2: midpoint of my career roughly, so I interviewed literally thousands
Speaker 2: of people, and I would ask I always started the
Speaker 2: interview with tell me about yourself, and people would say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, it's my resume. I'm like, no, I read it.
Speaker 1: It's the dreaded question, though, Jenny. I get when someone says,
Speaker 1: tell me about yourself, I'm like, oh, where do I start.
Speaker 2: Well, you can textualize it in the context of sitting
Speaker 2: across from an executive recruiter, then yes, I want you
Speaker 2: to tell me the stuff that's relevant to this job,
Speaker 2: but that's not on your resume.
Speaker 1: So don't say, well, I was born in Chicago.
Speaker 2: It all depends on who you're talking to. I mean,
Speaker 2: if we're sitting here just getting to know each other,
Speaker 2: that's a connection point. That's actually part of what you're
Speaker 2: trying to do is connect Now, it might not always work,
Speaker 2: but you're offering something about yourself that hopefully is relevant
Speaker 2: to why you're sitting across from each other.
Speaker 1: I've never like really worked in the corporate world. I've
Speaker 1: worked in newsrooms, so you might have to speak to
Speaker 1: me in this interview like I'm a baby not to worry.
Speaker 1: What is relevant information to a recruiter?
Speaker 2: Well, your journey and why? And maybe I'm especially sensitive
Speaker 2: because someone called my path meandering someone I was interviewing with,
Speaker 2: and I said, I don't see it that way at all.
Speaker 2: I made very de liberate decisions. It wasn't linear, but
Speaker 2: I decided what I wanted to do. Well.
Speaker 1: I learned from you people make five to seven career
Speaker 1: transitions in your.
Speaker 2: Lifetimeutely, of course, and that's fine, and the number is
Speaker 2: going to go up.
Speaker 1: So if I'm thinking, if I'm trying to be strategic
Speaker 1: and give you relevant information. You were a recruiter for Google, right,
Speaker 1: and it's obviously a tech company, but.
Speaker 2: First at a global search firm, So yes, Google was different,
Speaker 2: very different.
Speaker 1: I only bring up Google because I think that in
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist, it's become known for its recruiting. The company
Speaker 1: wants the best talent and oftentimes gets it. So I
Speaker 1: think just having that as your background is such a
Speaker 1: feather in your cap. But in terms of what's relevant,
Speaker 1: did you ever interview somebody and thought, Wow, they nailed it?
Speaker 1: And why?
Speaker 2: Here's part of what I'm getting at as I sit
Speaker 2: here and think about it, listening to you playing it back.
Speaker 2: I'm looking for and this is me because every recruiter
Speaker 2: is different. Some recruiters are looking for have you done
Speaker 2: it before? Have you done it before? Have you done
Speaker 2: it before? Check? Check, check, you're qualified. Go. I've learned
Speaker 2: that that doesn't necessarily correlate to one's level of competence
Speaker 2: in a role.
Speaker 1: The best person I've ever hired for social media had
Speaker 1: no social media experience, And.
Speaker 2: How do you know that they should be good? You're
Speaker 2: taking a bit of a bet.
Speaker 1: But you know what, it didn't even feel like a
Speaker 1: bet because I looked at her and I thought, you
Speaker 1: are a proactive person. You are a figure it out,
Speaker 1: can do person, and you'll figure out anything. And she
Speaker 1: was better than all the other people I hired that
Speaker 1: had social media experience. I believe it is that what
Speaker 1: you're looking for.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm looking for a level of self awareness such
Speaker 2: that you can reflect on your own career and extract
Speaker 2: from me what's the most relevant to why we're sitting
Speaker 2: here today. Okay, in general, when I was recruiting, that
Speaker 2: was it. It was how are you responding to me.
Speaker 2: I think I'm very conversational in my interviewing style, and
Speaker 2: so I wondered the extent to which they were actually
Speaker 2: listening to me and interacting with me, versus taking very
Speaker 2: calculated pauses to consider what they think might be the
Speaker 2: perfect response. That's not flow, that's not being in the moment,
Speaker 2: that's having been rehearsed.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I don't know that I would have
Speaker 1: considered that. Like, I go into an interview and I
Speaker 1: want to be so prepared that sometimes, like you might
Speaker 1: answer a question with a prepared SoundBite versus being in
Speaker 1: the moment, and you're saying that wins over the preparation
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: For me, Yeah, every recruiter is completely different. I'll tell
Speaker 2: you if I can. When I was at Google, I
Speaker 2: took on an additional role than what I was hired
Speaker 2: for to create an internal mobility program. So I wanted
Speaker 2: to hire people from within Google. So I put it
Speaker 2: out there and started interviewing just a handful of folks,
Speaker 2: and one of the women did something I will never
Speaker 2: forget that was so impressive to me. I asked a question.
Speaker 2: These were all qualitative questions, no calculation required, and I
Speaker 2: asked it and she said, give me a minute. And
Speaker 2: she put her head down, and she had brought a
Speaker 2: pen and pad, and she wrote out her thought. For
Speaker 2: whatever reason, I thought it was somewhat courageous to have
Speaker 2: the presence of mind to say I need a minute.
Speaker 2: It said so much. I'd never seen anybody do it
Speaker 2: before or since.
Speaker 1: It signals confidence.
Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. So she ended up working for me, okay,
Speaker 2: and then she now works for me again. I've been
Speaker 2: gone for five years and she moved to Connecticut, but
Speaker 2: she's working with me part time. And I mentioned it
Speaker 2: to her and she said, Ginny, that was because I'm
Speaker 2: actually very introverted, which I actually didn't know about her,
Speaker 2: and introverted is different from shi, right, But she said,
Speaker 2: I just needed to get my head clear because I
Speaker 2: had stood on an elevator with you. You didn't know
Speaker 2: who I was, and I was so completely intimidated by you.
Speaker 2: Sitting across from you. I was getting flustered, and I
Speaker 2: knew I wanted to respond succinctly, so I wrote it down.
Speaker 1: That is so impressive, and to have the presence of
Speaker 1: mind to do that, that's right. My dad always said
Speaker 1: to me that if you feel like people are going
Speaker 1: on and on in phone calls that you should actually
Speaker 1: always say, can you just email me? And it's not
Speaker 1: to be rude or push them off. It's because when
Speaker 1: people are writing, they have to be succinct. They're thinking
Speaker 1: about being succinct.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, otherwise people will just drone on and on yeah.
Speaker 1: So doing that in an interview is amazing.
Speaker 2: I thought it was impressive.
Speaker 1: So to go back kind of to our first question,
Speaker 1: if we take away the titles and the LinkedIn profiles
Speaker 1: and all of our email signatures, what would we really
Speaker 1: know about our business? What our business is.
Speaker 2: In general, Like we as a populist or an individual.
Speaker 1: Individual, I think we hang our hat on these titles,
Speaker 1: and it's hard to communicate what we really do. Like
Speaker 1: I can tell you I'm in the business of interviewing,
Speaker 1: but that's not really what I do. I really am
Speaker 1: a storyteller. I am a connector.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I could give you four things of what I actually do,
Speaker 1: but I think that's hard to deduce, especially like if
Speaker 1: you're in mortgages.
Speaker 2: Well, but you tell a story about maybe starting with
Speaker 2: how you came here, and again the most relevant parts
Speaker 2: to the other person listening to you. It was so
Speaker 2: funny when I'd asked that question every single one of
Speaker 2: my interviewees, tell me about yourself, and some people would
Speaker 2: just choke like, well, I you know, I don't know
Speaker 2: what to say. It's just you know, it's right there
Speaker 2: on the resume. Other people would just kind of say
Speaker 2: something summary of the resume and stop after three minutes,
Speaker 2: and then I'd have to start probing. And I'm not
Speaker 2: judging people harshly necessarily, but it was more the answers
Speaker 2: than the process. Then I had people who would go
Speaker 2: on and on and tell me, well, in first grade,
Speaker 2: you know I did this, and then I'm like, okay, no,
Speaker 2: let me give you a quick outline. Here's what I'm
Speaker 2: looking for. I'm looking for connection points of how do
Speaker 2: you think That's part of what I'm looking for, not
Speaker 2: just what you've done. Why did you make these moves?
Speaker 2: What precipitated some of these moves? You can tell me
Speaker 2: part of your personal story. You had to care for
Speaker 2: a sick parent, or you had to take time off to,
Speaker 2: you know, deal with the child with special needs. Tell
Speaker 2: me those things that to me is interesting, is a
Speaker 2: directly relevant to the job, Not necessarily, but it gives
Speaker 2: me some insight into some of the things that you've
Speaker 2: been through that might help shape how you think. And
Speaker 2: that's what I'm really looking for.
Speaker 1: So the personal is professional in your mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'd learned that probably the most when I got
Speaker 2: to Spencer Stewart, because I've just gone through some of
Speaker 2: the hardest times in my life, and so I needed
Speaker 2: to integrate what was going on, just having lost my mother,
Speaker 2: my son being one year old, asking my husband for divorce,
Speaker 2: I say that kindly telling him and then showing up
Speaker 2: at this global search firm. That was my first month
Speaker 2: in all that had happened.
Speaker 1: And you were the only person of color there. Yes,
Speaker 1: So you were navigating that too, Yes.
Speaker 2: And I had been working with a healer. He's so
Speaker 2: much more than a healer. He's a shaman, a guru,
Speaker 2: close personal friend, really gifted. He's a therapist, he's a theologian.
Speaker 2: And so I had been on my spiritual journey for
Speaker 2: a number of years, and I just knew I needed
Speaker 2: to integrate these things. It's not like I can meditate
Speaker 2: in the morning and and be fine and sort of peaceful,
Speaker 2: or at least seeking having that place as my place
Speaker 2: of respite and meditation and reflection and then come to
Speaker 2: work and just be like going hard. I needed to
Speaker 2: be the same person at my core, never trying to
Speaker 2: impose my beliefs on anyone in the workplace, but just
Speaker 2: showing up as who I am. There's one of me,
Speaker 2: and yeah we code switch, but at my core, what
Speaker 2: I believe in, what I believe about myself, that needs
Speaker 2: to show up every day, and I'm not going to
Speaker 2: suppress that because that weakens me.
Speaker 1: That's interesting because I guess in my profession as a broadcaster,
Speaker 1: I've often thought, is it chicken or the egg? Like
Speaker 1: I used to do morning TV, and I could be
Speaker 1: going through something so terrible in my personal life, but
Speaker 1: you have to show up and be really sunny on
Speaker 1: TV like you do. Have to kind of compartmentalize. And
Speaker 1: I always think, are people who are good at that
Speaker 1: drawn to that profession or do you learn it in
Speaker 1: the profession. I'm not sure, but I really like the
Speaker 1: idea of finding a way to integrate.
Speaker 2: And it can be quiet, it can be internal, not
Speaker 2: necessarily perceptible to others. Although people kind of saw me
Speaker 2: as the spiritual one, I had this aura about me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was told I think people were drawn to
Speaker 1: you and that's why they're drawn to you on social
Speaker 1: media today.
Speaker 2: Well, that'd be nice. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: It's true. I feel like, at least on my algorithm,
Speaker 1: I'm swimming in career content. Do you think that any
Speaker 1: of it is valuable?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, depending on where you are in your career,
Speaker 2: what it is that you're looking to get out of it,
Speaker 2: and then I think a lot of it is noise.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I agree, But I've actually learned a lot from
Speaker 1: online career coaches or little resume tips. I had no idea,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about AI later, but I
Speaker 1: learned the other day on TikTok some woman was saying,
Speaker 1: on your resume, you should put a bunch of keywords
Speaker 1: in white ink so that they get past the computer
Speaker 1: system that's looking for certain keywords, so you can get
Speaker 1: to the next level, to get to a human I
Speaker 1: was like, I would have never known that.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that because I never worked with algorithms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a whole different thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you think that professionalism is important nowadays or does
Speaker 1: it feel manufactured?
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is anymore, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: I go back to I came out of graduate school
Speaker 2: in the eighties. All right, I'm seriously dating myself. So
Speaker 2: it was skirts and pantyhose and all of that. So
Speaker 2: it was very different, but I kind of yearned for
Speaker 2: a little bit more formality. I mean, going to Silicon Valley, it's,
Speaker 2: you know, the epitome of casual. I just did a
Speaker 2: video talking about what we wear and how there's an
Speaker 2: element of I'm not remembering the word that they use,
Speaker 2: but there's a psychological term that says that when you
Speaker 2: like the way you dress, when you feel good about
Speaker 2: yourself in the way that you're dressed, you think more clearly.
Speaker 2: You show up differently.
Speaker 1: Also, people take you more seriously whether you want to
Speaker 1: do better or no.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely they do, and understanding who it is your
Speaker 2: across from. I was in professional services. We served clients.
Speaker 2: You had to show up, You had to present yourself
Speaker 2: well to your clients, and some of that is the
Speaker 2: way that you look.
Speaker 1: Early in my career, I was financially struggling a lot,
Speaker 1: and I always made sure that part of my small
Speaker 1: budget went to hair and makeup and clothing. And a
Speaker 1: lot of people would have said that's a waste and
Speaker 1: that's crazy. But I really felt like no one was
Speaker 1: going to hire me unless I looked the part.
Speaker 2: I believe.
Speaker 1: Did you always do that? Did you dress for the
Speaker 1: job you wanted? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I just have my own personal style and standards
Speaker 2: of dressing. You know, my mother was one of those
Speaker 2: women who you don't go to the grocery store without
Speaker 2: putting lipstick on it. Literally, she would say that. So
Speaker 2: I grew up. It wasn't bussy, it wasn't showy, but
Speaker 2: she taught me how to dress for my body. I'm
Speaker 2: six feet tall and super long legs, and so I
Speaker 2: couldn't wear with all the three girls we're wearing.
Speaker 1: So you look like this going to get coffee in
Speaker 1: the morning.
Speaker 2: Pretty much.
Speaker 1: I aspire to that level of professionalism. I am homeless
Speaker 1: or Hollywood. There is no in between. It's truly amazing.
Speaker 2: You know. I'm not obsessive. And again, it's not for
Speaker 2: your show.
Speaker 1: It's just it's who you are.
Speaker 2: This is how I show up.
Speaker 1: I think we live in this era of main character energy.
Speaker 1: Do you think that kind of energy helps or hurts
Speaker 1: at work?
Speaker 2: Some of that is going to fly in the face
Speaker 2: of collaboration, which is for most people, even if you're
Speaker 2: an individual contributor at work, you need to be able
Speaker 2: to get along with others, plain nice with others as
Speaker 2: they say. So. Yes, I think it can fly in
Speaker 2: the face of this showing up and being the main character.
Speaker 2: It's not always about you, I know.
Speaker 1: I think about like how you can show up and
Speaker 1: be the main character without pissing people off. And it's like,
Speaker 1: be extra competent.
Speaker 2: Be competent, be perceptive, watch signals. What is your goal
Speaker 2: in being there? Because depending on what the gathering is
Speaker 2: about your participant. Now, if you're the one sucking the
Speaker 2: air out of the room, always wanted to raise your
Speaker 2: hand and say the most important thing that gets tiresome,
Speaker 2: you're going to turn people off.
Speaker 1: Do you know Bozoma Saint John. That is somebody who
Speaker 1: I look at her and I'm like, you brought main
Speaker 1: character energy to your jobs and people loved you for it.
Speaker 1: She must be really perceptive because she knew like when
Speaker 1: to bring it and when to listen. And if you
Speaker 1: bring that kind of energy, you have to be really perceptive.
Speaker 2: It seems you absolutely do. And I think what's really
Speaker 2: dare I say in Vogue now is the authenticity. Are
Speaker 2: you putting on a show, are you doing something actually
Speaker 2: just for someone else to observe, or are we seeing
Speaker 2: the real you?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Because I think some people wear masks at work.
Speaker 1: You've talked about something called role prison. Can you explain
Speaker 1: what that is?
Speaker 2: Well, people get into a role and they think that's
Speaker 2: all they can never do. Is that what you're referring to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like people start behaving according to what they think
Speaker 1: their title requires, yeah, rather than what the work needs.
Speaker 2: That's dangerous because part of it tells me that on
Speaker 2: just a personal level, you're caught up in a title.
Speaker 2: That's your first mistake. Because these titles anywhere pick a place,
Speaker 2: they tend to be ridiculous, right, I mean we've seen
Speaker 2: some that are just really crazy.
Speaker 1: Do titles matter anymore?
Speaker 2: We're still in a hierarchical environment, and so to the
Speaker 2: extent that it shows rank or level, people in those
Speaker 2: roles want that. They want others below them subordinates to
Speaker 2: respect their title and hopefully there's a commensurate amount of
Speaker 2: competence that goes with the title. That's a big if,
Speaker 2: because I've worked for people who had big titles who
Speaker 2: weren't always as competent as I would have expected.
Speaker 1: How do you navigate that situation when you feel like
Speaker 1: you know more than your boss?
Speaker 2: Do your best to build them up. That's what I
Speaker 2: would say. It's not going to serve you well to babmoutholm.
Speaker 2: Other people are probably aware of it, and so to
Speaker 2: the extent that you can fill the gap, do that.
Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about competence a lot. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you've said that it's the real currency in the room.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that.
Speaker 2: Well, let me describe what the term and I talk
Speaker 2: about competencies. I was trained to do competency based assessment
Speaker 2: as a recruiter. The way I describe competencies as the
Speaker 2: deconstructed elements of how you do something. It's not just
Speaker 2: that you've done it. That doesn't tell me that you're competent.
Speaker 2: I know lots of people have done stuff and they're not.
Speaker 1: You know, you're savage in the best way.
Speaker 2: I'm oh, you have no idea. You know my nickname
Speaker 2: Maybe you don't. It's GMFC G C Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I was given it Jenny MF Clark for anybody listening,
Speaker 1: got it.
Speaker 2: I'm kind, I'm loving, but I just see things very clearly,
Speaker 2: and they're not absolute. This is all through my lens, right,
Speaker 2: But you were competent, competency thinking, deconstructed elements of how
Speaker 2: you do something.
Speaker 1: How do you communicate that to somebody?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 1: Like if I'm in an interview, how can I describe
Speaker 1: my how storytelling?
Speaker 2: We're back to that, okay, And the way I seemed
Speaker 2: to fall into this before I became an executive recruiter.
Speaker 2: I recruited for two years after I graduated from undergrad
Speaker 2: University California at Davis, and then I went to business school.
Speaker 2: Then I went into banking, commercial real estate executive recruiting.
Speaker 2: In the interviews, the more time and the more varied experiences,
Speaker 2: I had to create the through line for the person
Speaker 2: I was speaking to so that they understood what was
Speaker 2: it that I had learned and what skills had I
Speaker 2: developed that made sense to what it is that they do? Now?
Speaker 1: What did you say?
Speaker 2: When I was going into Spencer Stewart, I was able
Speaker 2: to talk about how I developed business when I was
Speaker 2: in the commercial real estate investment management business because I
Speaker 2: had clients and I had to go out and find them.
Speaker 2: I talked about how I thought, how I processed and
Speaker 2: worked on different challenges in that space, How I innovated,
Speaker 2: how I developed things, how much I recruited, I did recruiting.
Speaker 2: I wasn't a recruiter in these other companies, but they
Speaker 2: would send me on campus on behalf of the company
Speaker 2: to recruit for them because I was a line person
Speaker 2: who could interview. So I just dropped these little nuggets
Speaker 2: of things that I had done that were relevant and
Speaker 2: it made sense.
Speaker 1: I'm like deducing here. Would you say that you could
Speaker 1: look at a company's objectives if it is to grow
Speaker 1: their business, whatever those are, if you could name three
Speaker 1: of them and then try and fit in how your
Speaker 1: personal story give them the how for a few of those,
Speaker 1: and that would be a good interview.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's not just the company. Yes, that's the container,
Speaker 2: but it's the role. To talk about the role, because
Speaker 2: so many people, as I was saying, they assume if
Speaker 2: you've done it, if you have a similar title, ooh,
Speaker 2: that makes it really easy. They've done this before. You're
Speaker 2: not asking nearly enough questions.
Speaker 1: There are three really good questions to ask somebody when
Speaker 1: you are being interviewed.
Speaker 2: Give me an example. That's one. So give me an
Speaker 2: example of when you had to deal with someone who
Speaker 2: was difficult, you had a difficult client, to offer them
Speaker 2: a hypothetical situation and say how would you handle this?
Speaker 2: That's quite telling, So it's not just the what, it's
Speaker 2: the how back to that?
Speaker 1: And then how about the reverse side. If you are
Speaker 1: being interviewed, what are a few questions that are really
Speaker 1: thoughtful and great to ask?
Speaker 2: The basic ones of tell me something about your organization
Speaker 2: that you don't like, or there's some simple ones that
Speaker 2: really aren't that thoughtful, So do your homework. And I
Speaker 2: would advise people to get as granular as possible so
Speaker 2: you can know something about damn near anybody that you're
Speaker 2: talking to. So do your homework on the interviewer, and
Speaker 2: I would ask a question that's more specific to them
Speaker 2: and maybe the role that they're in, how they think
Speaker 2: about the work that the company is doing, or the
Speaker 2: role that this individual plays in the organization from their perspective,
Speaker 2: so that you're actually learning something so the question doesn't
Speaker 2: become just a platitude.
Speaker 1: What do you think? And be honest, what do you
Speaker 1: think of the question like what is your biggest pain
Speaker 1: point day to day? And what would somebody in this
Speaker 1: role do to make your life a lot easier.
Speaker 2: It's not a bad question.
Speaker 1: Don't seem excited by it. It's not a great question.
Speaker 2: To the extent that it might have already been answered.
Speaker 2: When people hold on to they have this sort of
Speaker 2: list and they have these questions, and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: I actually already talked about a lot of that. It
Speaker 2: doesn't feel probing, it feels rehearsed.
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm hearing you say, though, is that a
Speaker 1: lot of this is practice. Because I think about myself
Speaker 1: at twenty two, There's no way I'm going to be
Speaker 1: present in an interview. I'm so nervous. I'm not practiced.
Speaker 1: Like I could go in now at thirty five and
Speaker 1: be present. I don't even know if I could have
Speaker 1: done that three years ago.
Speaker 2: I get that, and keep in mind I was interviewing
Speaker 2: as a recruiter. These were very senior people. When I
Speaker 2: was a college recruiter was more Those were very different
Speaker 2: kinds of conversations. Okay, so thank you for like kind
Speaker 2: of making that distinction. But I still think back to
Speaker 2: your original question around what I call the narrative. Everybody
Speaker 2: needs one be able to tell your story, even if
Speaker 2: no one's giving you any real guidelines. Have something in
Speaker 2: your head about why you're sitting here?
Speaker 1: Are there certain beats in the story to hit, Like
Speaker 1: if you could break down what are the beats you
Speaker 1: want to hit?
Speaker 2: Why you're here? You're trying to hit why I'm interested,
Speaker 2: because you'd be surprised how many people take interviews and
Speaker 2: they actually don't know much about the organization, don't really care. Really,
Speaker 2: it's an opportunity, it's an opening, and they're sitting here.
Speaker 1: But it's such a competitive job market nowadays.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but some people are there just because someone said
Speaker 2: yes to them and they haven't given it a lot
Speaker 2: of thought, and that's unfortunate.
Speaker 1: I'm really surprised to hear that, especially you're having done
Speaker 1: like senior recruiting. That's shocking.
Speaker 2: Or you're supposed to be impressed by them. All right.
Speaker 1: Eight, So you've considered yourself a former executive recruiter, conscious
Speaker 1: leadership expert, executive coach, keynote speaker, and workplace activists. What
Speaker 1: do you consider your competency.
Speaker 2: My competencies are around how I think. I'm a holistic thinker.
Speaker 2: I look at things. I'm able to zoom in and
Speaker 2: zoom out. I'm highly analytical, qualitatively analytical. I'm a systems thinker,
Speaker 2: and that I think comes from my training in language
Speaker 2: linguistics in French and loving to read the dictionary. So
Speaker 2: I perceive things in a deeper way than a lot
Speaker 2: of people who just might give it a cursory observation.
Speaker 2: I see everything, watching people, I'm sensing, I'm using all
Speaker 2: of my senses. I'm highly intuitive, so I see a lot.
Speaker 1: You're hired give a moment, but can I tell you
Speaker 1: what stood out for me? I was thinking, like, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm sitting across from her. When you said I think
Speaker 1: more deeply and see what other people miss, I'm like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm looking for. Like you hit something there
Speaker 1: with the way you described it. I just think that's
Speaker 1: good for people to notice they're thinking about how to
Speaker 1: describe their own competency.
Speaker 2: Absolutely one of the ways I came up with the
Speaker 2: five dimensions of conscious leadership, and it's not just for
Speaker 2: people in leadership roles. By the way, know yourself, speak
Speaker 2: your truth, inspire love, expand consciousness, and activate mastery. I
Speaker 2: came up with those when I was getting ready to
Speaker 2: leave Google, and I look back on my entire career
Speaker 2: to reflect on what did I think make leaders good
Speaker 2: or great or terrible? And these are the personal characteristics
Speaker 2: that I think underlie any functional expertise, any leadership expertise.
Speaker 2: These are personal attributes that people need to consider, because
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people don't. They're just like,
Speaker 2: I'm here, I'm good, I've done all these things. Their
Speaker 2: identity is their resume, which you were alluding to earlier,
Speaker 2: and that's very dangerous. I think we need to step back.
Speaker 2: You're not your job. You need to know who you are,
Speaker 2: what you stand for, what your values are, why you're here.
Speaker 2: It's simple stuff, but I think a lot of us
Speaker 2: are lost.
Speaker 1: Well, I have to tell you. I've had the woman
Speaker 1: on the podcast named Susie Welch who created something called
Speaker 1: the Values Bridge, and you take a simple quiz and
Speaker 1: it tells you what your sixteen values are in order,
Speaker 1: and we conflate values and virtues. So kindness is really
Speaker 1: important to me, and I thought that was a value,
Speaker 1: that's a virtue. I ask myself questions all the time.
Speaker 1: I ask questions for a living, and I had no
Speaker 1: idea what my real values are. I think, like you
Speaker 1: really have to carve out the time, it's very difficult
Speaker 1: to really know yourself.
Speaker 2: It is especially now, especially with social media.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you have everybody else's opinions. I have found
Speaker 1: that in my career, my professional life really only expands
Speaker 1: as much as my personal development. Have you found that
Speaker 1: to be true in your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because my personal development matters more. I can't be
Speaker 2: someone totally different when I show up at work from
Speaker 2: the essence of who I am. Maybe some people can,
Speaker 2: maybe they have to. Yeah, you get all of them,
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of all or nothing again, you
Speaker 2: know what's appropriate. Yeah, But at my core, I'm the
Speaker 2: same person, and I wish that for everyone because I
Speaker 2: think trying to be something you're not is exhausting and depleting.
Speaker 2: And if you don't know, then I think you're missing
Speaker 2: big aspects of yourself that you could be bringing into
Speaker 2: the workplace, bringing into the rest of your life that
Speaker 2: you haven't. And it's more than just the language. It's
Speaker 2: the awareness.
Speaker 1: As a recruiter, would you hire somebody that you liked
Speaker 1: over somebody with high competency?
Speaker 2: No, in the workplace, I need competence. Do I need
Speaker 2: to like you? Not necessarily if I find you obnoxious
Speaker 2: that's a problem if I don't perceive that you're going
Speaker 2: to work well with others.
Speaker 1: There's sort of a meter.
Speaker 2: There's a meter, but you've probably heard me say I
Speaker 2: don't need to be liked, so if someone else needs
Speaker 2: to be liked, there's kind of a hole there, I think.
Speaker 2: And that's cause for concern.
Speaker 1: Because so much of your work intertwines the personal and professional,
Speaker 1: and I just want to say that I deeply appreciate that.
Speaker 1: How do you think about personal and professional boundaries? Are
Speaker 1: there professional boundaries when you're a high achiever, high performer?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Really Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do anything my superior. I work
Speaker 2: for myself now, so I am that right. But when
Speaker 2: I think about the people on my team, I only
Speaker 2: have two full time people. I'm not going to ask
Speaker 2: them to do anything I wouldn't do in the context
Speaker 2: of work, you know what I mean. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to ask them to work all weekend. If we all
Speaker 2: agree that we have to get something out, we're on
Speaker 2: a sprint and we're all going to do it, then
Speaker 2: that's one thing that's a boundary, and personal boundaries I'm
Speaker 2: probably even more locked down on those.
Speaker 1: I want to sort of dig into this because you
Speaker 1: talk about how nobody teaches us how to say no.
Speaker 1: You actually talk about it very often on your Instagram.
Speaker 1: Why is that important to you?
Speaker 2: Because I see so many people in the workplace, people
Speaker 2: like coach people I encounter who are people pleasing. They
Speaker 2: don't know how to say no. They don't think it
Speaker 2: serves them to say no. And I just think it's
Speaker 2: really important that you know what your boundaries are and
Speaker 2: you're able to express them. Because this is maybe my upbringing,
Speaker 2: but you know, I don't owe you anything. If we're
Speaker 2: in a work environment and I have responsibilities and deliverables,
Speaker 2: of course I'm going to honor those commitments. But you
Speaker 2: want me to do something else that goes well beyond
Speaker 2: what's expected maybe of others. No, And part of my
Speaker 2: barometer is what I ask somebody to do that under
Speaker 2: the same circumstances.
Speaker 1: Do you think that is realistic for a startup because
Speaker 1: that feels like very true in a corporate environment, But
Speaker 1: when I think about startup environments, I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's even possible.
Speaker 2: It might not be. I mean, where you're sort of
Speaker 2: a jack of all trades, master of none, as I say,
Speaker 2: right you need to jump in and that the team
Speaker 2: I have now, frankly, they'll do anything we agree. Can
Speaker 2: you do this? Yes? I can. No, I'm probably not
Speaker 2: the one to ask, So yeah, I do like having
Speaker 2: people in a startup. Yeah, but still there might be boundaries.
Speaker 1: You've called interviews theater, so I really want to know
Speaker 1: who's the worst actor in the room, the candidate or
Speaker 1: the company.
Speaker 2: You know, I would say the company. But a company
Speaker 2: is nothing more than a bunch of people. And I
Speaker 2: always say that the culture is determined by the senior
Speaker 2: most leaders, So I guess it kind of trickles all
Speaker 2: the way up to leadership.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about culture. It's something that
Speaker 1: as a millennial I've heard in the zeitgeist a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there is company culture. You can feel it that
Speaker 1: you walk in, But I find it to be very amorphous,
Speaker 1: like very rarely is there a culture or a value
Speaker 1: system written on the walls. You just kind of walk
Speaker 1: in and feel it. So when you say it's set
Speaker 1: by the leaders, do you think it's caught not taught?
Speaker 1: Do you think it's taught? How does it get set?
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't even think it's necessarily intentional in a
Speaker 2: lot of companies. I mean, they might have their sort
Speaker 2: of ethos or whatever's on the website or have it
Speaker 2: written down on a wall, but then when you walk
Speaker 2: in I refer to it as the soup that you're in.
Speaker 2: You feel it. You just said that you feel it,
Speaker 2: and very often what you feel is not what might
Speaker 2: be on that wall exactly. The leaders are the ones
Speaker 2: who set the tone very typically without thinking about it.
Speaker 2: It's what they will and will not tolerate. That to
Speaker 2: me is one of the big elements of what is
Speaker 2: going to determine the culture. What are people getting away with,
Speaker 2: what kind of behavior is incentivized? See.
Speaker 1: I think that's so interesting because I think when people
Speaker 1: talk about culture, they think it's we are kind, we
Speaker 1: are doers, But it's actually who gets hired and who
Speaker 1: gets fired Because you watch what behavior gets rewarded and what.
Speaker 2: Is punished and how you're treated and by whom.
Speaker 1: It's more simple than I thought.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, people are simple in so many ways.
Speaker 1: So our producer and I loved this video you made
Speaker 1: about interviews. So you say interviews were invented in nineteen
Speaker 1: twenty one, How have we been conducting them wrong since then?
Speaker 1: You need to spill the tea. I didn't realize they
Speaker 1: were this old.
Speaker 2: And I think the reference was to the fact that
Speaker 2: this was sort of at the beginning of the industrial age,
Speaker 2: where you know, people open these factories and they had
Speaker 2: all these people show up, and they needed to figure
Speaker 2: out a way to discern who's more suitable than the
Speaker 2: other person. And so the interview and I think it's
Speaker 2: become something that we do a standard, but I just
Speaker 2: don't think they're done well. I think most interviewers aren't
Speaker 2: asking the right questions.
Speaker 1: I want a set of questions from you. I know
Speaker 1: that's so hard to give me when it's just a
Speaker 1: general conversation, but I would love to see you do
Speaker 1: a video about that. I'm so curious, like, what are
Speaker 1: people doing.
Speaker 2: Wrong the interviewers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you from my perspective. Sure, I have
Speaker 1: just recently started hiring help and a freelance team, and
Speaker 1: I think I'm a really bad high I'm self aware
Speaker 1: enough to okay, I'm getting better at it. I do
Speaker 1: think part of its practice. I didn't know the questions
Speaker 1: to ask at the beginning. So I did look at
Speaker 1: the resume like you said, and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: they've done this before. I learned very quickly that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean competence. And I don't know the right questions to ask,
Speaker 1: so I don't know I have an expert. Here, can
Speaker 1: you advise me.
Speaker 2: I'll start with a shortcut, and that is take the
Speaker 2: job description hopefully you had one, drop it into your
Speaker 2: favorite AI system. Tell it what your expectations are, tell
Speaker 2: it what's not on the job description. Describe the circumstances
Speaker 2: in which this person is going to be operating, and
Speaker 2: what your expectations actually are. Not the to do, but
Speaker 2: this is the environment, the culture that we operate in.
Speaker 2: I'm this, I'm a that. Give it a couple paragraphs
Speaker 2: and then ask it to generate some questions for you.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2: I mean I was a recruiter long before AI, but
Speaker 2: I learned myself how to contextualize what it is that
Speaker 2: I'm trying to hire. For given who was sitting in
Speaker 2: front of me, it became automatic for me.
Speaker 1: Wow, I love that answer. Thank you for that. I
Speaker 1: think everybody's different. I've boiled down. My most important quality
Speaker 1: is being proactive. Proactivity. That's what I'm looking for. What
Speaker 1: one quality were you really.
Speaker 2: Looking for for people? On my team or as a
Speaker 2: recruiter when I.
Speaker 1: Was as a recruiter, If you had to give us
Speaker 1: one quality.
Speaker 2: You know what, it's the self awareness. That's the quality
Speaker 2: I was always looking for. I didn't always name it
Speaker 2: as that. I'll never forget. I was sitting across from someone.
Speaker 2: I don't remember now if he became the final candidate,
Speaker 2: but in the end, I really like this guy and
Speaker 2: he was responding to a question I think, and I
Speaker 2: looked across. I'm at my big desk and he's sitting
Speaker 2: over in the chair, and I saw this little ten
Speaker 2: year old boy when I looked up, and it wasn't
Speaker 2: that he was childish. I just saw a vulnerability and
Speaker 2: I thought this was a decent, kind person. It wasn't
Speaker 2: what he said. What he talked about told me that
Speaker 2: he was competent, But there was something else that I
Speaker 2: noticed that let me know that he was human and kind,
Speaker 2: and that is something I value.
Speaker 1: If you could interrupt everybody's algorithm for five minutes, what
Speaker 1: truth about work would you force us all to sit with.
Speaker 2: It's a game, and once you understand that, you won't
Speaker 2: fight against it all the time. Half the stuff that
Speaker 2: people think is cast in stone and half the genius
Speaker 2: that they believe that their boss has. Oh you've got
Speaker 2: broken people, brilliant people, happy people, angry people, disturbed people,
Speaker 2: all here thrown together to do something. And it's a
Speaker 2: game and it's not always well played.
Speaker 1: So learn to play it if you could try and
Speaker 1: in a simple way, boil down who wins and who loses.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I think so many people think that they win
Speaker 2: when they make a lot of money or they have
Speaker 2: a big title and they're over lots of people. I
Speaker 2: just don't believe that's the case. For me, it was
Speaker 2: how can I impact people. I've been gone from Google
Speaker 2: five years, but when I still hear from members of
Speaker 2: my team and I'm employing one now, or they're reaching
Speaker 2: out just to say hey, they see me on social
Speaker 2: media and they're celebrating something, my son is in grad
Speaker 2: school or whatever. It's a personal connection, you know. And
Speaker 2: I think we don't do that well. It's not valued
Speaker 2: and people underestimate and you can't fake it. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying go try to be friends with everybody. I don't
Speaker 2: have that many friends from work or work colleagues. And
Speaker 2: we respect each other and like each other, but fewer friends.
Speaker 2: But I think we need to sort of understand what
Speaker 2: everybody's doing there.
Speaker 1: Well, what I think you're talking about, and tell me
Speaker 1: if I'm assessing it right? Is integrity one of my
Speaker 1: favorite words?
Speaker 2: Me too, I don't know that enough people actually know
Speaker 2: what that is, or regrettably that it's modeled by leaders,
Speaker 2: the ones that you would expect to embody that. That's
Speaker 2: how I grew up. My dad, I told you, was
Speaker 2: a superintendent of correctional facilities.
Speaker 1: And so much tight shit.
Speaker 2: Oh yes he did. I'm his daughter. I look like
Speaker 2: my mom. My brother looks like my dad, but my
Speaker 2: brother is my mother's son. I am my dad's daughter
Speaker 2: very much him. Hence the GMF sy. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: just think we need to get clear on why we're
Speaker 2: doing things, how we're doing things. And yes, the integrity
Speaker 2: piece is integral, but unfortunately integrity isn't often modeled by
Speaker 2: the senior most people. Yeah, and so that standard isn't
Speaker 2: set and the culture suffers.
Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever been able to name that.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you pointing that out, because all the best
Speaker 1: places I've worked, the leader, the number one in charge,
Speaker 1: has a lot of integrity and they hire people with
Speaker 1: integrity for the most part.
Speaker 2: Well, and the ones who don't have integrity who operate
Speaker 2: from that place at work. Well, I keep thinking of
Speaker 2: the coldplay situation, right that CEO with the head of hr.
Speaker 1: Oh, tell me what you think about that?
Speaker 2: How stupid and irresponsible frankly for the two of them
Speaker 2: to even be there, to get caught in public, in public,
Speaker 2: what were you thinking?
Speaker 1: Because there were other people from the company there too,
Speaker 1: so everyone was just kind of turning a blind eye. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I felt like, what you do on your own time
Speaker 1: is your business. Yeah, that is your marriage, you decide,
Speaker 1: But to bring it out into public as.
Speaker 2: A wild irresponsible.
Speaker 1: So you agree that they both should have been.
Speaker 2: Fired absolutely if I was on the board immediately bad judgment.
Speaker 2: Use that kind of judgment in work situations, No, out
Speaker 2: of here, gotta go. There got to be consequences to
Speaker 2: bad behavior, which.
Speaker 1: Is the culture piece it is. It kind of all
Speaker 1: fits together.
Speaker 2: That's why I was saying, what gets tolerated is going
Speaker 2: to determine the culture.
Speaker 1: Do you think then it's very important for us to
Speaker 1: as individuals recognize what our values are, maybe even write
Speaker 1: a list and only work at companies that align with
Speaker 1: our values. Is that even possible?
Speaker 2: That might narrow it down to too few. I just
Speaker 2: don't think companies are as deliberate and aware, and the
Speaker 2: leaders I don't think are necessarily holding themselves as accountable
Speaker 2: as they should to their employees. Very often, I think
Speaker 2: leaders think in terms of, you know, I'm accountable to
Speaker 2: my shareholders and to my board. What about to the
Speaker 2: thousands of employees. You're accountable to them too by showing
Speaker 2: up with integrity, And I think that's what's missing.
Speaker 1: If you are a person who wants to work on
Speaker 1: your integrity, what does that look like?
Speaker 2: Need to go somewhere and sit by yourself and look
Speaker 2: deeply into the mirror.
Speaker 1: Because what you're talking about is leadership, and you can
Speaker 1: be a leader in any role you're in.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I guess I landed on that because I saw
Speaker 2: how many leaders people in leadership roles. So I use
Speaker 2: the term judiciously. When you're not leading well, but you're
Speaker 2: still called a leader. I just was disappointed. I expected more,
Speaker 2: you know, I held my dad out as that sort
Speaker 2: of standard of someone who knew how to set boundaries
Speaker 2: but respected people. And that's the difference that I talk about.
Speaker 2: I don't need you to like me. But as my
Speaker 2: mother used to say, you will respect me. I can't
Speaker 2: force you to do that. You will respect me if
Speaker 2: I am truthful, if I'm kind, if I have integrity,
Speaker 2: which means you can trust me. I don't think a
Speaker 2: lot of leaders can be trusted these days. They don't
Speaker 2: demonstrate that they are worthy of trust.
Speaker 1: As you're talking, I'm thinking about that. The best leaders
Speaker 1: I've worked for show up as the same person every day,
Speaker 1: so they're not, you know, full of integrity one day
Speaker 1: and then maybe in a bad mood the next. There's
Speaker 1: a consistency piece, like you trust them because they're consistent.
Speaker 2: That's right, and you know we're all human, right, So
Speaker 2: I would let my team know I'm kind of off today.
Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little wonky and dizzy, so you'll excuse me,
Speaker 2: you know, have some humility.
Speaker 1: I've had friends in other fields who are more in
Speaker 1: corporate worlds, and they've applied for jobs and they had
Speaker 1: to take a compatibility test before they even get to
Speaker 1: round one. And I feel like a lot of those
Speaker 1: are making people feel like they're fired before they're even hired.
Speaker 1: What do you think about those.
Speaker 2: I've never seen one of those tests. I'm well aware
Speaker 2: that they're out there. It triggers a little something for
Speaker 2: me in the sense that it sounds suspiciously like the fit.
Speaker 2: Do they fit our culture? What does that even mean?
Speaker 2: That leaves so much room for what I think often
Speaker 2: becomes I'll say it, it can be biased.
Speaker 1: That's how I feel.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Can I tell you When I am given any sort
Speaker 1: of like paperwork and I have to click an identity
Speaker 1: box a race and ethnicity, a gender, I'm like, there's
Speaker 1: no good way to answer this, and I don't want
Speaker 1: to answer right because it feels like I'm damned if
Speaker 1: I do. I'm damned if I don't. What do you
Speaker 1: think about those?
Speaker 2: I mean, there was a time when I think some
Speaker 2: of that information was actually used to calibrate the outreach
Speaker 2: that an organization might have been getting. I co founded
Speaker 2: the City Practice at Spencer Stewart, and part of my
Speaker 2: responsibility Google was developing some of that expertise and capability,
Speaker 2: and so there weren't quotas, but also we wanted to
Speaker 2: know that we were getting a representative sampling of people
Speaker 2: who had the qualifications.
Speaker 1: Right, you want a pipeline of different types of people.
Speaker 2: That's right, but it can send a very negative signal.
Speaker 1: Well, I think nowadays it's so confusing. People don't know
Speaker 1: if they're going to be discriminated against because of a
Speaker 1: certain box, or they don't know if it helps them
Speaker 1: if they check a certain box.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: I guess Netflix is known for having like a lot
Speaker 1: of different boxes. People a check yeah, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's helpful or hurtful.
Speaker 2: I don't either, I just don't. I think there's this
Speaker 2: confusion because they might be asking for things they don't
Speaker 2: communicate why, and then can you even trust them or
Speaker 2: are you being screened out? Would you say, before you
Speaker 2: even cross the threshold.
Speaker 1: Do you recommend people just put like not applicable.
Speaker 2: Or other true? Just be you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you don't want to walk in somewhere where
Speaker 1: you're not welcome as you here, we have it, you
Speaker 1: got it ultimately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, The welcome can mean different things. I've been in
Speaker 2: situations where I was welcomed by the masses, but then
Speaker 2: certain people were uncomfortable with my presence. I represented a threat.
Speaker 1: Well, what I found so interesting about your story is
Speaker 1: that you shared that early on in your career at Spencer.
Speaker 2: What is it called Spence Spencer Stewart.
Speaker 1: Spencer Stewart that very early on they asked you to
Speaker 1: start a diversity program. Yeah, and you said no, thank you,
Speaker 1: and they were kind of shocked. Can you explain your
Speaker 1: thinking behind that?
Speaker 2: Well, it was a couple of things. One, I was
Speaker 2: going through so much with my young son and my
Speaker 2: mom passing a month after I started there, So that
Speaker 2: was one. So knowing my own physical emotional limitations in
Speaker 2: that moment. But the overarching thing was that I needed
Speaker 2: to learn the business of executive recres The way they
Speaker 2: did it what made them one of the top firms
Speaker 2: in the world. There's a way, and they had very
Speaker 2: clear standards, talk about professionalism. It was just very clear
Speaker 2: quality control. This is how we do things. And you
Speaker 2: know what. That worked for me because now that I
Speaker 2: know what you expect, I know what I need to
Speaker 2: learn and how I need to fortify what I came
Speaker 2: here knowing with spending time with people and just doing
Speaker 2: some of the work. So it was a great experience.
Speaker 2: It was probably the most formative role of my career
Speaker 2: because I learned so much.
Speaker 1: I love when you share that story because I think
Speaker 1: it signals the yes and no that you talk about
Speaker 1: a lot of people I think would have thought, Wow,
Speaker 1: an opportunity to lead so early on, And that was
Speaker 1: your self awareness that said I'm actually not ready yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the ready wasn't as in knowledge, I could
Speaker 2: have done it based on what they wanted. I prioritized
Speaker 2: learning the business because ultimately that's how I was going
Speaker 2: to be evaluated. And what it was that they were
Speaker 2: asking me to do was a function of understanding the business,
Speaker 2: and that meant knowing people, knowing behaviors and you know,
Speaker 2: just some of the things that aren't on paper, and
Speaker 2: building relationships internally.
Speaker 1: So you've worked for two of the top companies in
Speaker 1: the world in terms of recruiting, interviewed thousands of people,
Speaker 1: hired hundreds of top performers. If you could give me
Speaker 1: three qualities that top performers have, what would they be.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to self awareness. I think
Speaker 2: they really do because that self awareness allows them to
Speaker 2: interact with other people in a way that brings the
Speaker 2: best out in those people. So it's a derivative of
Speaker 2: some of the leadership competencies that I was trained to
Speaker 2: assess for. So that's probably one. It's that how well
Speaker 2: do you know yourself? And that weeds out I think
Speaker 2: extreme behavioral maladies and things like you know, narcissism and
Speaker 2: other things that can be really destructive in an organization.
Speaker 2: So that's one. How many did you want?
Speaker 1: I'd love three if you have them.
Speaker 2: A sense of collaboration because even if you're coming into
Speaker 2: a leadership role, no one expects you to know everything.
Speaker 2: A good leader knows how to ask questions, how to
Speaker 2: admit when they don't know something. That's why you have
Speaker 2: a team. Have them know or go find out. One
Speaker 2: of the primary competencies is decision making. And again I'm
Speaker 2: going to fall back on what I mentioned earlier around
Speaker 2: the fact that so many people now are conflict diverse
Speaker 2: and people pleasing. They're derivatives of a similar mindset, I
Speaker 2: dare say. And so if you're a people pleaser or
Speaker 2: you're conflict averse or both, you're probably not going to
Speaker 2: make optimal decisions because you're too worried about what everybody
Speaker 2: else is thinking and you don't want to necessarily say
Speaker 2: anything because you're avoiding conflict. So that's why personal traits
Speaker 2: can influence the level of competence in a certain area.
Speaker 1: I love that really struggled with conflict, and I saw
Speaker 1: a therapist. I'll never forget. I was doing a morning
Speaker 1: show in Chicago and my boss and I butt heads
Speaker 1: a lot. I thought he was a person of low
Speaker 1: integrity and I didn't trust him, and that's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite traits or values, and so it was tough
Speaker 1: for me and we would disagree a lot, and I
Speaker 1: didn't know what information I could share with him. I
Speaker 1: went to a therapist and I was like, I'm so
Speaker 1: bad at conflict, and she said, no, you are just
Speaker 1: not practiced. So we're going to practice conflict. Your boss
Speaker 1: already doesn't like you, We're going to really practice with him.
Speaker 2: Oh that's great.
Speaker 1: I love that we had so much conflict for a year.
Speaker 1: Now I don't get stressed out by conflict. I actually
Speaker 1: appreciate a hard conversation. So I only share that to
Speaker 1: say that if you are listening and feeling that, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is something that you can practice.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I had to tell someone I was coaching. I said,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure you and your manager are
Speaker 2: ever going to like be buds, so why don't you
Speaker 2: focus on building the best team this organization has ever
Speaker 2: seen in your function? Because trust me, word will get around.
Speaker 2: So you don't need to be the one. You have
Speaker 2: nothing to prove, per se, but go do the best
Speaker 2: you can possibly do. And trust me, his boss is
Speaker 2: going to find out how good you are because the
Speaker 2: top bosses have plants, they have people. Somebody once told
Speaker 2: me you seem to have your ear to the ground.
Speaker 2: It was like, huh, I probably do. It wasn't an
Speaker 2: active thing that I did. It's simply that people felt
Speaker 2: comfortable coming to me because they felt that they could
Speaker 2: what trust me.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to give you some rapid fires. Okay,
Speaker 1: the workplace trend you didn't see coming. Yoga pants, the
Speaker 1: workplace trend that will not age well.
Speaker 2: Yoga pants.
Speaker 1: The number one thing not to put in a cover.
Speaker 2: Letter your test scores, work.
Speaker 1: From home, return to office or hybrid.
Speaker 2: Return to office. I want to tell you why later
Speaker 2: we keep going.
Speaker 1: Okay. The most outdated aspect of applying for jobs algorithms.
Speaker 1: First red flag in an interview.
Speaker 2: Wasn't kind to the admin.
Speaker 1: Overused corporate word that needs to retire immediately.
Speaker 2: I've been out. Now, let's see there's some of these
Speaker 2: platitudes that sound so stupid.
Speaker 1: We'll circle back, a title that people chase that just
Speaker 1: is not worth the stress.
Speaker 2: Anything but a c.
Speaker 1: The fastest way to lose credibility in.
Speaker 2: A room talk too much.
Speaker 1: The twenty twenty six way to say, per my last email.
Speaker 2: Maybe you didn't understand.
Speaker 1: Jinny, MF and Clark, thank you. You're so wonderful.
Speaker 2: What a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day,
Speaker 1: to have a good day. I'll see you next week.